Dancing slow.. but without the blues?

[Beowulf]

Is such a thing possible?

I've not been dancing for a couple of months now but have been going over some of the moves on the three Ceroc DVDs i have. I got a blues style DVD to try and learn to dance slower but I don't think I'd be comfortable with the closer moves or some of the blues style moves.

However, whenever I try and simply slow down normal beginner and intermediate moves I just feel really awkward and the dance doesn't feel right.

Is dancing to slow tracks without getting bluesy some sort of state secret? because I can't figure it out ! :sick:

[ducasi]

Some moves just don't work well slow – arm jive and side-to-side come to mind...

I think moves involving more movement (and thus less hanging around waiting for the next beat to happen) tend to work better.

[clevedonboy]

learn a dance suited to slow music - WCS comes to mind

[Gadget]

Is dancing to slow tracks without getting bluesy some sort of state secret? because I can't figure it out ! :sick:
It's both easier and more difficult than dancing blues:

Easier: same MJ moves and movements and attitude, just stretched a bit in places and squished in other places..

Difficult: Timeing needs to change, and the moves have to be done well since imperfections will be highlighted.

You need to know where you should be on each count of the move, then put the counts where you want in the music (Which is not necessaraly on the "correct" beat.) Slowing down is slightly easier, but you can't slow down a whole move or it looks like "treacle" dancing: just select the bit in between two counts and make it last for two or three counts instead; make this little bit "treacle" and the rest of the move normal speed.

The other alternative is to insert a walk, pose, 'freeze', stalk, wiggle, shuffle, body roll, or other dramatisim instead of simply slowing down the bit - this can last for a lot more than the one count you are replacing (exactly what can depend on the position you are in at the time you decide to slow things down.

{erm... I started writing this, then it occured to me that I have sort of blurred the line in my own dancing between 'normal', 'slow' and 'blues' dancing so much that I'm not really sure if the above is of any use :blush:}

[Andreas]

Slowing down an entire move is the wrong approach and always will feel awkward. What you need to look at is slowing down parts / sections of moves. Usually that will be the beginning or the end of a move because that is where it fits in most cases but also is easiest to follow for your partner.

But the idea of dancing slow is to detach yourself from strict format moves. Slow music is made for improvisation. At least that is what you should work towards. :flower:

[Ghost]

Try watching the very end of the film "Michael" for a different feel for slow dancing.

Ok I've just put on "Angel" - by the lovely Sarah McLachlan - v. slow

Some moves that aren't close and I can remember the names of:
shoulderslide
step across
(change hands) figure 8 into freeze / invite to play
frontpass
train
manhattens
w manhattens
neckbreak into freeze / invite to play
Slo halleuiah

Hope that helps,
Christopher

[DavidB]

There is a very good post on the Australian Forum about dancing to slow music.
http://www.cerocforum.com/showpost.php?p=50216&postcount=31

[Beowulf]

Hmm.. lots of moves I've not been taught yet so I assume slow dancing is advanced dancing? it just seems to me when I DO go dancing (I am coming back very soon I promise!) I have to sit out a numbe rof dances because they're either too fast (have read the other thread on this) or two slow

I'm probably lacking the dance timing gene or something.

As for learning WCS or something I really can't travel to other venue's outwith aberdeen and don't know of any classes running up here. There is a Tango class run by a friend of a friend but it's considerably more tricky than MJ !!

[Lynn]

There is a Tango class run by a friend of a friend but it's considerably more tricky than MJ !!I was going to say that Tango is another dance that is a lot slower - but then again close embrace in tango can be even closer than blues!

However, some of the Jango moves are moves that you can bring into your MJ that look elegant when done more slowly. Someone suggested WCS - but you can borrow elements from that - eg travelling the lady along a 'slot' - which works really well for the slower tracks but doesn't require close moves.

Blues is more about interpreting the music than 'getting in close' - its definitely possible to dance to slower music without needing to go into 'blues' hold.

And yes, its a little more 'advanced' in the sense that a) you are listening to and playing with the music more which comes with experience and b) you need more control to do some moves more slowly.

Don't worry about sitting out some of the slower tracks, use that time to watch what other folk are doing. Some probably are just dancing slow MJ so you can see which moves do and don't work.

[Whitebeard]

Hmm.. lots of moves I've not been taught yet so I assume slow dancing is advanced dancing? ........

No, no, forget that. I enjoy slow dances and no one could accuse me of being advanced !!

It's either attitude, a degree of experience, or age, but I have no problem with the slow stuff. In fact it's my preferred tempo. Can't explain it technically, although a definite plus point is that this sort of music often has the musicality so lacking in most of the midstream stuff. Had a great dance to 'Blue Moon' the other night and I think my partner was surprised to have enjoyed it so much.

[ducasi]

Hmm.. lots of moves I've not been taught yet so I assume slow dancing is advanced dancing?
What Lynn said...
:yeah:

Some of the posts on this thread have been about slowing down dancing independently of the music – it's sometimes fun to dance to a slower rhythm than the drum beat in a fast-ish song. I don't think that's what you're asking about, though most of the advice is applicable.

Slow dancing isn't for advanced dancers only – it's just that there's only so much you can do with the beginner's moves that are appropriate before your slow dance becomes a dull dance.

But as I said, the difficulty is in filling each beat. Travelling moves, like walks and even simple baskets and first-moves work well. Ultimately though there's this thing called "playing". You get to fill the extra space between beats with poses, wiggles, footwork, whatever takes your fancy...

[Lynn]

Ultimately though there's this thing called "playing". You get to fill the extra space between beats with poses, wiggles, footwork, whatever takes your fancy...Or ask a woman to dance who you have seen 'playing' - then if you are getting stuck with what to do, just give her space to play and simply admire. Or even better, learn how to tell if she is 'asking' for space, or let her know you will allow her to 'take' some time to play.

That way she gets space and opportunity to input something into the dance (and if she likes to play she will think you are a wonderful dance partner if you give her that space) and you get a little 'thinking time'. And you might enjoy watching her decorations.:wink:

[MartinHarper]

Various thoughts:

One problem for newer dancers dancing to slow music is that it feels like there's a lot of time spent doing nothing. So, in an arm jive, they might "pull back left", and then be waiting around for the next downbeat, then "pull back right", and wait around a bit more. This can indeed feel a bit awkward. A general smoothing out of a move can help prevent the waiting around.
Footwork helps. If you use WCS-ish footwork (for example), that tends to fill out the space in the music better. It's harder to dance smoothly from point A to point B if you're only using one step to get there. Possible, but harder.

There's nothing saying you have to dance to the beat. Just walk all over the beat, laugh with your partner at the ineptness of the DJ who chose the particular piece of funeral music you're dancing with, and have fun. Musicality isn't compulsorary: enjoyment is more important. If you prefer, you can dance a bit at your own pace, then come back to the beat of the music for a few seconds, then go back to dancing at your own pace.
I personally find it funny to dance half-speed in an exaggerated fashion to excessively slow music. You may not. :)

One thing that can make slow music seem awkward is that, as it's slower to what your brain is used to, your brain has more opportunity to think. Thinking is bad, as it contribute to nervousness and such. Therefore, distract your brain with something else, such as making conversation with your partner. If it's too loud for that, use up some spare brain cycles listening more intently to the music than you normally would, or concentrating more on leading precisely correctly, or whatever.

I think a lot of it is about confidence.

----


Some moves just don't work well slow – arm jive and side-to-side come to mind...

I went to a blues class at a Lindy weekend which taught something very similar to an arm jive, amongst other bits and bobs. Different style of leading it and a different feel, but the same idea. Worked fine.


slow dancing is advanced dancing?

Slow dancing is slow dancing. Fast dancing is fast dancing. With all these things, it's what you are used to and what you are taught. I've seen JazzJive beginners dancing to music that would make plenty of Ceroc intermediates think twice, and do great, and vica versa. It's not advanced in any absolute sense.

I totally endorse clevedonboy's suggestion to learn a dance form where a slower tempo of music is considered standard. Then you'll get the benefit of learning to dance to that music as a natural and regular and easy and beginner-suitable thing. If in your mind it's something difficult, you'll find ways to make it difficult, where it really isn't.

[Beowulf]

:respect: to all above..

I'll give it a try. For some reason now I have a little green guy (not PMJD ;) ) sitting here on my shoulder

“Tempo matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my speed, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the musicality, and a powerful ally it is. Music creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Rhythmic beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the musicality around you; here, between you, me, your partner, the DJ, everywhere, yes. Even between the Bar and the Dance floor." :wink:

[straycat]

Is such a thing possible?

I've not been dancing for a couple of months now but have been going over some of the moves on the three Ceroc DVDs i have. I got a blues style DVD to try and learn to dance slower but I don't think I'd be comfortable with the closer moves or some of the blues style moves.


Out of interest, what aspect are you not comfortable with? I ask, because normally, it's the extra contact with your partner that puts people off, when the normal blues 'close' hold doesn't require that at all - it's quite possible (and for me, desirable) to have great blues dances nothing more than arm and hand contact.



However, whenever I try and simply slow down normal beginner and intermediate moves I just feel really awkward and the dance doesn't feel right.

As has been said, timing is key here. The main problem comes when you try attaching these moves to a very slow beat - if you can completely detach from the beat, and use it as a guide, rather than the law, the moves will start to flow differently, and the feel will improve (some of my favourite blues tracks have no beat at all, for exactly that reason)


learn a dance suited to slow music - WCS comes to mind
:yeah:



Slow dancing isn't for advanced dancers only – it's just that there's only so much you can do with the beginner's moves that are appropriate before your slow dance becomes a dull dance.

I don't completely agree here (though I do agree with the rest of your post) One of the many great things about (social) blues is that you can do so much more with a move - you could quite happily have a really fun dance just by experimenting with & inventing first move variations, for example - playing with timing, playing with where (or whether) you send the follower out, repeating different parts of the move...

Keep blues as simple as possible, and you can't go too far wrong :)

[Freya]

I had been strugling with slow dancing when leading!

But thanx to Claire S :wink: I think I've got the hang of it! Although we did lots of Close moves the jist was the same! There are some moves that work better than others when dancing slowly just as there are some moves that work better when dancing fast.

I found that lots of walks and basket type moves work better as you can really take your time with them and when walking you can have a bit of a strut! :wink: Cross body leads work well too as you can spin the lady, block or just let her have bit of a walk!

Also I love freezes! It can allow the woman time to play but if they don't then you just move on.

As a female lead I can get away with a bit of playing too! but I find in slow dancing that if you stay more on the spot and get the follower to move more and dance around you then it can look really cool!

Hope this limited experience helps!

[ducasi]

I don't completely agree here (though I do agree with the rest of your post) One of the many great things about (social) blues is that you can do so much more with a move - you could quite happily have a really fun dance just by experimenting with & inventing first move variations, for example - playing with timing, playing with where (or whether) you send the follower out, repeating different parts of the move... That's really what I meant. A beginner's first move is just that. By experimenting with & inventing variations you take it out of beginner-dom.

[straycat]

That's really what I meant. A beginner's first move is just that. By experimenting with & inventing variations you take it out of beginner-dom.

I suppose, in some ways. You've reminded me of what I meant to say in my post, and forgot though - said experimentation and invention is actually very easy technically. It doesn't feel it to begin with, is all.

I think the biggest barrier to blues is psychological. People (especially men) often have to shed some inhibitions in the first place to start dancing, but in learning blues, it can feel like you have to throw away another crutch - your solid repertoire of moves. It's certainly what I found hardest. Once past that mental block, the rest was a breeze.

[Lynn]

I suppose, in some ways. You've reminded me of what I meant to say in my post, and forgot though - said experimentation and invention is actually very easy technically. It doesn't feel it to begin with, is all. It is, and I agree about the mental shift in attitude being important. However while interpretation may be easy enough technically (some of it is, some of it isn't) not everyone finds hearing the music that way easy at first. If you are used to dancing to the beat, rather than dancing to the music, it can take a while to readjust. Then you might go through a stage where you hear the music doing interesting things but don't know what to do with it. Then you start to experiment and find out what works and build the confidence to try more. Then you start to have lots of fun playing with the music.

That's why sitting and watching what other people are doing with the music, seeing what bit of the music their moves are responding to, can be helpful.

[JonD]

People (especially men) often have to shed some inhibitions in the first place to start dancing, but in learning blues, it can feel like you have to throw away another crutchI'm glad that was "crutch" and not "crotch"! That could have added a whole new dimension to dancing blues.

I agree - giving up the "safety blanket" of moves was very difficult for me. I've found that improved balance, and so improved control, has made it much easier for me to dance to slow tracks. That and the confidence to use pauses - to stand still but still be dancing.

Watching other people provides me with a lot of inspiration although I find it hard to emulate them. The way Animaltalk uses "light and shade" in his interpretation is fantastic; he switches between softness and drama, slow and fast, tender and strong in a heartbeat. Amazing.

[David Bailey]

There is a Tango class run by a friend of a friend but it's considerably more tricky than MJ !!
Yeah... I think I'd put that in "Understatement of the year" category :)

[straycat]

Yeah... I think I'd put that in "Understatement of the year" category :)

You mean it's really run by the friend of a friend of a friend of a friend (of a friend)?

[onkar]

Is such a thing possible?

I've not been dancing for a couple of months now but have been going over some of the moves on the three Ceroc DVDs i have. I got a blues style DVD to try and learn to dance slower but I don't think I'd be comfortable with the closer moves or some of the blues style moves.

However, whenever I try and simply slow down normal beginner and intermediate moves I just feel really awkward and the dance doesn't feel right.

Is dancing to slow tracks without getting bluesy some sort of state secret? because I can't figure it out ! :sick:

I recently attended an excellent workshop on the Night Club Two Step (NC2S) run at Sara White's (http://www.jivenites.co.uk). This was a slow style of dancing that was great for slower tracks, but without the need to get as up close and personal as blues does. Not sure if anyone else teaches it, but a very nice style. Originated from the WCS community.


Onkar

[straycat]

I recently attended an excellent workshop on the Night Club Two Step (NC2S) run at Sara White's (http://www.jivenites.co.uk). This was a slow style of dancing that was great for slower tracks, but without the need to get as up close and personal as blues does.

Sounds great... but I really think someone should throw a bucket of water of the couple pictured on the front page. Can't quite work out whether they've just finished, are about to, or are currently engaged in, some kind of sexual act, but from the looks on their faces, it's got to be one of the three. (and he seems to trying to undo her top) :whistle:

apologies (or should that be congratulations?) if they're forumites or friends of forumites.

[David Bailey]

Sounds great... but I really think someone should throw a bucket of water of the couple pictured on the front page.
Blimey, that's nothing, you should see the blues room at Swinging The Blues.... But my goodness that boy needs a serious haircut (OK, I'm just jealous).

Anyway, on the original question. No, I don't think it's possibly to dance "Slow MJ" as MJ - it relies inherently on a certain speed, and a certain push-pull dynamic for most of the common moves - spins and turns, mostly.

It's possible to dance slow-something-that-looks-MJ-ish to a slightly slower beat than normal MJ. So this could be WCS, it could be Cha-cha, it could be "Latin Style" (slotted dancing, cross-body leads etc.), or whatever.

But once the speed gets right down, you almost have to do a different dance - Blues / Tango / whatever - I don't think that can ever be classed as "Modern Jive" at that speed.

[Ghost]

But once the speed gets right down, you almost have to do a different dance - Blues / Tango / whatever - I don't think that can ever be classed as "Modern Jive" at that speed.
I kinda disagree - but that's because one of the ways I practice is in very slow motion. It highlights all the flaws in balance, connection etc. There's a few women I dance that way with (without bluesing) on the dance floor - it's a lot of fun.

But then my normal style isn't 'bouncy'

Be Well,
Christopher

[DavidB]

No, I don't think it's possibly to dance "Slow MJ" as MJ - it relies inherently on a certain speed, and a certain push-pull dynamic for most of the common moves - spins and turns, mostly.I wouldn't agree with this. You can rely on certain dynamics if you want to, but it is not the only way of doing MJ.

[ducasi]

... No, I don't think it's possibly to dance "Slow MJ" as MJ - it relies inherently on a certain speed, and a certain push-pull dynamic for most of the common moves - spins and turns, mostly.

It's possible to dance slow-something-that-looks-MJ-ish to a slightly slower beat than normal MJ. So this could be WCS, it could be Cha-cha, it could be "Latin Style" (slotted dancing, cross-body leads etc.), or whatever.

But once the speed gets right down, you almost have to do a different dance - Blues / Tango / whatever - I don't think that can ever be classed as "Modern Jive" at that speed.
I disagree. I don't know any other dances well enough to be dancing anything but (my own particular style of*) Ceroc/MJ and I think I do all-right with the slower music. Perhaps you're thinking of slower music than me?

But it leads me to wonder "what is the essence of modern jive?"

What is unique in MJ that without it you are doing a different dance – or put another way, what do different dances have that means you must be dancing one of them rather than MJ?


* Interestingly, at the Big Bang weekend I was asked if I do "smooth jive" rather than regular MJ, and someone thought I must be a WCS dancer from my style.

[Yogi_Bear]

But it leads me to wonder "what is the essence of modern jive?"

What is unique in MJ that without it you are doing a different dance – or put another way, what do different dances have that means you must be dancing one of them rather than MJ?

Well, put it this way, if you show me four couples dancing Lindy Hop, Argentine Tango, Boogie Woogie and West Coast Swing I can tell you that none of them is dancing MJ......

[Yogi_Bear]

But once the speed gets right down, you almost have to do a different dance - Blues / Tango / whatever - I don't think that can ever be classed as "Modern Jive" at that speed.
I would say that for very slow music then if you are attempting to dance a series of MJ moves (ignoring for now the question of what you might be dancing other than moves alone) then you are not dancing something recognisable as MJ as such (ie as it is taught by MJ organisations). I make no judgement on whether that is good or bad practice.

[Beowulf]

OK.. now I'm officially confused.

I get the jist that "moves" are not important and you basically do your own thing.. so what's the point of learning all these moves then??

The more I read the less I want to dance as the more I read the less I feel I know and the less confidence I feel in my "abilities" (or lack thereof)

so dancing is more than learning the moves and putting them together pseudo randomly? I'm screwed then..

[Ghost]

OK.. now I'm officially confused.

I get the jist that "moves" are not important and you basically do your own thing.. so what's the point of learning all these moves then??

The more I read the less I want to dance as the more I read the less I feel I know and the less confidence I feel in my "abilities" (or lack thereof)

so dancing is more than learning the moves and putting them together pseudo randomly? I'm screwed then..
Best advice is go talk to your brother, um I mean Gadget. He's pretty much turned what your talking about into an art form (though he'll claim otherwise). He's also fairly fond of slow dancing, though admittedly a bit closer than you'd like :devil:

I look at it like the kata in the martial arts. Unless you're insanely lucky no-one's going to attack you in just the right pre-set way. The idea is to learn the moves so you can do them without thought and then you can just flow. In Ceroc it lets you focus on musicality, or how :awe: ClaireS's eyes are. But you need to learn the moves first.

"The more I know, the less I understand
All the things I thought I knew, I'm learning again"
The Heart of the Matter ~ Don Henley

Be Well,
Christopher

[MartinHarper]

So dancing is more than learning the moves and putting them together pseudo randomly? I'm screwed then..

If you learn some moves and put them together pseudo randomly to music then you will be an entirely competent Modern Jive dancer, and I will be delighted to dance with you any time you ask.
Once you get to that point (or you may already be there) there's lots of other dance-related stuff you can learn should you choose to do so. Alternatively, you can relax at being a competent MJer, and start learning something else. It's really up to you.

[TA Guy]

OK.. now I'm officially confused.

I get the jist that "moves" are not important and you basically do your own thing.. so what's the point of learning all these moves then??

The more I read the less I want to dance as the more I read the less I feel I know and the less confidence I feel in my "abilities" (or lack thereof)

so dancing is more than learning the moves and putting them together pseudo randomly? I'm screwed then..

Learning the moves, is part of the 'quick and easy introduction' to partner dance that Ceroc offers. I wouldn't agree that they are not important, probably virtually every single poster on here began their dance 'career' doing 'the moves'.

I'm not completely sure what people mean when they say 'giving up the 'moves'. Certainly, in all my travels, I've never seen anyone dance Ceroc (or any partner dance I can think of right now for that matter) without some form of moves. They may invent them, slow them, speed them up, shorten, elongate, musicate, or otherwise adapt them in a myriad of different ways either before or as they dance, but they are still 'moves'. So I'm not able to comment.
Certainly, as a regular at a typical Ceroc class night and typical Ceroc freestyles, moves exactly as they are taught still have there uses for me. Some of them are quite good :) .... and sometimes I adapt them to suit the music, or end early on a pause, or whatever.

There's no law. The moves taught are only there as a starting point and once you have the experience, can be mangled in any way you see fit. To help with slow dancing or whatever....
It's preferable if this increases your various partners enjoyment rather than resulting in no one wanting to dance with you. LOL. :)

[quiet_flame]

OK.. now I'm officially confused.

I get the jist that "moves" are not important and you basically do your own thing.. so what's the point of learning all these moves then??

The more I read the less I want to dance as the more I read the less I feel I know and the less confidence I feel in my "abilities" (or lack thereof)

I've talked about this on the aussie forum, here (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?p=48989#post48989) and the follow up to that here (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?p=49381#post49381)


so dancing is more than learning the moves and putting them together pseudo randomly? I'm screwed then..
Well, you could say that, or you could take the angle, you learn the moves to learn to move...
Don't stress about it Beowulf, time can only improve things... except when it's two minutes to a tsunami...

[straycat]

Blimey, that's nothing, you should see the blues room at Swinging The Blues....

You make it sound like said bues room is turning into a sleaze-fest :confused: - kind of hope I'm getting the wrong impression here, because that would be a shame.

[straycat]

The more I read the less I want to dance as the more I read the less I feel I know and the less confidence I feel in my "abilities" (or lack thereof)


Don't let it knock your confidence. You're getting a lot of advice, from various different perspectives, from a lot of people with different experiences, some is even conflicting.
Some will ring true to you. Some won't.
Some will suit you. Some won't.
You can't take it all in - it's just not viable.
Just take what you like the sound of, if there's anything, and try it out, or just let it filter through your head, or even ignore the whole lot - there's no right or wrong answers here, just different views on it all.

Believe me - the longer I learn about dance, the more I realise I still have to learn. You never stop learning - the trick is to tackle it at a pace that you can be happy with, without being daunted by what's still ahead. It's not always easy, but if it were, would it really be worth doing?



so dancing is more than learning the moves and putting them together pseudo randomly? I'm screwed then..

Dancing is different things to different people. As with all forms of self-expression, it's what you make it. In the end, it doesn't matter one bit to you what I make of it - it's you that's important. So do with it what makes you feel good.

Stray

[Gadget]

I get the jist that "moves" are not important and you basically do your own thing.. so what's the point of learning all these moves then??The moves are not important, but the movements within them are. :D What people mean by "moves are not important" is that if you screw up, don't complete a move, do something different in the middle of a move, etc - that is not important. You can't really do a move "wrong" (unless you hurt someone).


The more I read the less I want to dance as the more I read the less I feel I know and the less confidence I feel in my "abilities" (or lack thereof):confused: If you can lead - ie get the follower to go where you intend them - then all that is left is working out what to lead in the first place :D That's where "moves" come in.


so dancing is more than learning the moves and putting them together pseudo randomly? I'm screwed then..I can list a hundred pages of things that "dancing is more than": When you are learning one thing, you discover three other things you *need* to learn to make that one sit better in your dancing. And one of these has three other things. And one of these... etc.

Just take one thing at a time, pick what you want to learn - get board with that and move onto something else... it's doubtfull you will ever run out of topics.

[David Bailey]

I wouldn't agree with this. You can rely on certain dynamics if you want to, but it is not the only way of doing MJ.
My point is, I don't know if you can call it "MJ" after it slows down that much, although obviously one can dance in many different ways at MJ venues. Is Jango MJ? Is Blues MJ? I dunno... But as no-one knows what "MJ" actually is, it's probably moot.


so what's the point of learning all these moves then??
It's certainly not pointless learning moves, as they help you learn how to, well, move, to the music and show you ways in which you can, err, move your partner. By all means, keep learning moves.

What (I think) is a problem with Ceroc teaching at least is that mostly it seems to have pushed the message that "It's all about moves", so that it's easy to think a dancer who does 100 moves per track is 10X better than one who only does 10.

And once you get to a certain point, you realise that the way you move is more important than the moves. But please don't feel disheartened - it took me about ten years to realise that, you're way ahead of the game :grin:

[Lynn]

My point is, I don't know if you can call it "MJ" after it slows down that much, although obviously one can dance in many different ways at MJ venues. Is Jango MJ? Is Blues MJ? I dunno... But as no-one knows what "MJ" actually is, it's probably moot.The first time I saw blues I had been dancing MJ for about 7 months. It was on my first MJ weekender. I stood there and watched and didn't seem to recognise anything anyone was doing. I even remember trying to position myself in a location where I could watch without being asked to dance as I really felt inadequate at even attempting it, though I was enjoying the music. Now I love blues, because its about what is, for me, the heart of any partner dancing - connection and feeling the music.

Beowulf, there's no need to rush into blues - take your time, feel the music, watch, enjoy the journey.:flower:

[Gadget]

My point is, I don't know if you can call it "MJ" after it slows down that much, ...Slow it down, and it is MJ - what it's not is Ceroc. :wink::D

[sapphire]

That and the confidence to use pauses - to stand still but still be dancing.



And I love your pauses. They are great.

[Yogi_Bear]

OK.. now I'm officially confused.

I get the jist that "moves" are not important and you basically do your own thing.. so what's the point of learning all these moves then??

The more I read the less I want to dance as the more I read the less I feel I know and the less confidence I feel in my "abilities" (or lack thereof)

so dancing is more than learning the moves and putting them together pseudo randomly? I'm screwed then..

A few years ago I attended a series of Lindy Hop workshops and social dances attended by some of the world's top Lindy Hop teachers and performers. I can well remember watching one of the superstars and his partner, who will remain namelesss, dancing socially, and almost unnoticed to a swing track (as I recall) which, when it came on, made me think: "Wow, there's going to be some electrifying stuff danced to this". What they did was basically shuffling about on the spot. That's all I can remember. There was not a single Lindy Hop move danced to that number. Nor anything identifiable as any sort of move. Totally unexpected, innovative, musical, unique, danced for each other not for anyone watching, and so instructive.

I give this example to make the point that moves have their place, and often the best place for them is to be left in classes......

[Yogi_Bear]

Slow it down, and it is MJ - what it's not is Ceroc. :wink::D
I'm confused - surely all Ceroc is MJ but not all MJ is Ceroc?

[Yogi_Bear]

And I love your pauses. They are great.

Yep. I love pauses when they seem the right thing to do. Trouble is, it can lead to someone saying "Why have you stopped dancing?" - not for the easily disheartened.....

[Gadget]

I'm confused - surely all Ceroc is MJ but not all MJ is Ceroc?Isn't that what I said? :confused:

[Yogi_Bear]

Isn't that what I said? :confused:
Well not the way I read it. But if we agree that Ceroc is just one label for MJ...why can slow dancing be seen as MJ but not as Ceroc? What is the difference between slowed down MJ and slowed down Ceroc?

[David Bailey]

Slow it down, and it is MJ - what it's not is Ceroc. :wink::D
You know, that may be correct - Ceroc is a brand of MJ, according to the still-unchanged ceroc.com site (you listening, El?).

If we class "MJ" as "That family of dances which includes Ceroc, LeRoc, Jango, Blues, etc.", then that might help provide a definition of What We Do :eek:

What do people think? Is that a reasonable definition? Ceroc is a flavour of MJ?

[sapphire]

Beowulf, there's no need to rush into blues - take your time, feel the music, watch, enjoy the journey.:flower:

My first experience of bluesing was with Animaltalk so I guess I could not have been much luckier. However, this thread got me thinking that surely a good way for a man who is new to blues to get more confident is for him to dance with a lady who is experienced in blues dancing. Last night I was chatting to a man who has only been dancing for a few months and is going to his first blues party on Saturday. However, he has danced with a number of ladies who like to dance blues and I would say that is how he has learnt blues so far. He has yet to go on a weekender or have the opportunity to do a blues workshop.

And as I am pretty new to the forum, please do not all shoot me down at once! It is only a suggestion...

[JonD]

a good way for a man who is new to blues to get more confident is for him to dance with a lady who is experienced in blues dancing
I'd agree with that and, as someone who isn't a good blues dancer, can I book you for some extended "experience sessions" please?!

Dancing with someone who is really good at blues, or anything else, can be a bit nerve wracking though. I remember, at 5am one Southport Sunday, watching Phil Payne and a lady who teaches MJ in Aberdeen (I think) dance the most amazing blues. I went over to say "wow" and the lady asked me for a dance. Having just seen her electrifying the floor and atmosphere with Phil I went into "rabbit in headlight mode" and did nothing more than shuffle. I like to think that it was good shuffling, but shuffling is all it was! Still, it's a great way to learn if you can "get out of your head" and stop worrying about how it looks or fearing that you're boring your partner to death.


Certainly, in all my travels, I've never seen anyone dance Ceroc (or any partner dance I can think of right now for that matter) without some form of moves. They may invent them, slow them, speed them up, shorten, elongate, musicate, or otherwise adapt them in a myriad of different ways either before or as they dance, but they are still 'moves'.
Despite having said that I gave up the "safety blanket of moves" I'd have to agree with TA Guy. We all use figures, or moves, to some extent in our dance. I guess that the difference is that we stop thinking of them as "set sequences of movement" and start seeing elements of them simply as reference points in the overall flow of the dance. Sure, I sometimes dance a "pure" first move or octopus or basket but I'm not thinking before hand "right, now I'm going to do a first move". It's a bit like using a language: sometimes using a sentence straight from the phrase book is absolutely appropriate - "Where are the toilets?" gets the job done. But once you get to know some of the grammar you can use the vocabulary more creatively and with greater shades of meaning. It's my experience that learning the technique (or grammar) is essential if I'm going to be able to use the vocabulary (or figures/moves) to really express myself.

The greatest problem with dancing "pure MJ moves" at an even, slow tempo is that you can end up looking like you are dancing under water. I'd suggest it is better to slow down bits of them and speed up others - whip the turn or return and linger over the wrap in or turn out.

[WittyBird]

And i still can't post this video I have of you :mad:

[Yogi_Bear]

Yes, sometimes just 'dancing a move' in blues will get you out of trouble and give you and your partner time to think. But the focus needs to be on the music rather than thinking of moves. The music should suggest movements - I think it's useful to have the idea of movements here as opposed to moves. Concentrate on the music and your connection with your partner and with practice the movements will come more naturally. And the easiest way to learn is often to watch others and try to absorb some of how they are reacting to the music and to each other.

[Beowulf]

It's a bit like using a language: sometimes using a sentence straight from the phrase book is absolutely appropriate - "Where are the toilets?" gets the job done.

or in Aberdeen.. "Far's the loo's min?"


The greatest problem with dancing "pure MJ moves" at an even, slow tempo is that you can end up looking like you are dancing under water. I'd suggest it is better to slow down bits of them and speed up others - whip the turn or return and linger over the wrap in or turn out.

I'll give that a try. I don't normally dance slow tracks. I had a go at the last party I was at in Dundee and I think I must have looked like I was dancing the way the Bionic man runs .. just slowed everything down. That was when I realised that dancing slow isn't that simple and I started my quest to master this.

I might be heading out to J-J's tonight (first dancing in months! :clap:) so I'll watch what's happening on the dance floor.. pick up a few pointers.

[Yogi_Bear]

The greatest problem with dancing "pure MJ moves" at an even, slow tempo is that you can end up looking like you are dancing under water. I'd suggest it is better to slow down bits of them and speed up others - whip the turn or return and linger over the wrap in or turn out.

Yes I would agree. It is possible to make Mj moves much more bluesy by varying the tempo, speeding up and slowing down, pausing and freezing, injecting some attitude....all of this can be related back to the music. For anybody wanting to try just applying their MJ repertoire to blues that's probably the easiest way in....:waycool:

[straycat]

And i still can't post this video I have of you :mad:

Slap it on youtube or google video?

[JonD]

And i still can't post this video I have of you
Slap it on youtube or google video?
I'm not entirely sure that the world at large is ready for a video of me dancing!

That was when I realised that dancing slow isn't that simple and I started my quest to master this.
Dancing slowly is difficult - apart from anything else, you have less opportunity to hide your mistakes. Balance becomes critical; if you're moving quickly from one foot to the other and get slightly out of balance it will only be for an instant but if you're moving slowly the lurch or wobble is very obvious to both you and your partner. I practice my "moving balance", which is quite different to "static balance" by putting on a very slow piece of music and then moving to it at half tempo, trying to keep the movement even and fluid - bionic man style. Slow pivots are even harder.

People have given loads of very sound advice on this thread. About the only other thing I can add is: Don't do catapults to slow music - they look pants!

[Yogi_Bear]

People have given loads of very sound advice on this thread. About the only other thing I can add is: Don't do catapults to slow music - they look pants!

Yep - in blues classes Nigel and Nina usually demonstrate a very slow catapault to show how silly it looks....

[sapphire]

I'd agree with that and, as someone who isn't a good blues dancer, can I book you for some extended "experience sessions" please?!

You were invited to the blues party at my house on Saturday where you could most definitely have booked me but I seem to recall you are dancing tango elsewhere! How about you teach me some tango in return for practising your blues? Given that your close dancing is fab, I think I win hands down on this deal!

[Whitebeard]

I'm not entirely sure that the world at large is ready for a video of me dancing!



Pity about that. MJ'ers do seem to be notably video shy. However I've finally found something worth watching on the web:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AhDW0210ls&mode=related&search=

Very nice and smooth and reminiscent I think of WCS, but without the irritating (to me) footwork. Not a sign of the dreaded hand-bounce.

[straycat]

Pity about that. MJ'ers do seem to be notably video shy. However I've finally found something worth watching on the web:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AhDW0210ls&mode=related&search=

Very nice and smooth and reminiscent I think of WCS, but without the irritating (to me) footwork. Not a sign of the dreaded hand-bounce.

Hate to say it, but while she looks fine, and he's obviously a good jiver, his style looks ... incredibly average, if I'm being kind. A lot of the less-good-looking MJ traits creeping in there :(

[JonD]

Pity about that. MJ'ers do seem to be notably video shy
Hmmm - I don't know why the thought of a video on google or youtube should be more worrying than on here.

Hate to say it, but while she looks fine, and he's obviously a good jiver, his style looks ... incredibly average, if I'm being kind. A lot of the less-good-looking MJ traits creeping in there
Perhaps that explains it .....

Fair comment straycat, but criticism like that isn't likely to get too many people "putting their head above the parapet". My guess is that they are both a bit nervous about the camera and that's had an effect on their connection and styling - more so for the leader. Having said that, they are very smooth, fluid, balanced and grounded and make some really nice shapes. I bet they are pretty damn impressive in a more relaxed environment: I'd be happy to dance that well.

The clip is a bit "up tempo" for this thread but that kind of smoothness and "quietness" is great for the slow stuff.

[straycat]

Here's an interesting clip. (Yes, I know it says Lindy, but in this case, that's pretty well irrelevant)

Very nice, very simple & minimal, low-contact blues (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4552556425346306195&q=lindy+blues).

[CJ]

In Ceroc it lets you focus on musicality, or how :awe: ClaireS's eyes are. But you need to learn the moves first.

Be Well,
Christopher

Where was THAT dance with Claire? If it's where I think it is, Claire often speaks very fondly of that dance.:respect:

[ducasi]

Here's an interesting clip. (Yes, I know it says Lindy, but in this case, that's pretty well irrelevant)

Very nice, very simple & minimal, low-contact blues (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4552556425346306195&q=lindy+blues).
I'm watching that video (with the sound off) thinking... "hmm, smooth, except for all that foot twitching he keeps doing!?!?" Maybe Lindy's not for me... ;)

[MartinHarper]

I'm watching that video (with the sound off) thinking... "hmm, smooth, except for all that foot twitching he keeps doing!?!?"

It might make more sense with the sound on.

[Chef]

Here's an interesting clip. (Yes, I know it says Lindy, but in this case, that's pretty well irrelevant)

Very nice, very simple & minimal, low-contact blues (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4552556425346306195&q=lindy+blues).

I am glad that you posted up this link. The guy in the video is coming over to London to teach in the middle of October and I wanted to see a bit more. There are a group of Lindy Hoppers who have organised themselves to become "blues reovlution" and they organise infrequent blues dances and get blues teachers from the US over to teach on all too rare occasions.

I went to one of their events when a guy from Texas called Bill Borgida was over and teaching. I have only ever learnt blues daning from Nigel and Nina and found Bills style dealing with familiar concepts but introducing a new slant on things.

I am looking forward to any opportunity to dance blues. As I have said before on this forum, the opportunity to dance it is far too rare. The music is often only sprinkled in the sets of "swing and blues" rooms at weekenders and other events so there are only a few opportunities for a mood to be created.

The interest in blues daning is so small at present that pretty much all that is happening is that small groups of people are organising thier own blues dance parties in their own homes or in small halls. The last Blues Revolution one (that I couldn't get to:sad: ) started at 1am and ended at 10am.

Roll on Southport (although that only gets realy bluesy after 4:30am).

[straycat]

The guy in the video is coming over to London to teach in the middle of October and I wanted to see a bit more.

Ooooh. Got any info on when / where?



I went to one of their events when a guy from Texas called Bill Borgida was over and teaching. I have only ever learnt blues daning from Nigel and Nina and found Bills style dealing with familiar concepts but introducing a new slant on things.


Mmm. Not had a chance to do any proper workshops with him, but had a couple of quick informal ones once (forget where) - he was excellent, iirc.

[ducasi]

It might make more sense with the sound on.
OK, tried it – not much better, though at least I see he's twitching in time to the music.

[Chef]

Ooooh. Got any info on when / where?


Try looking at http://www.bluesrevolution.co.uk/. The last information that I had was that he would be teaching on the weekend of 14/15th Oct but when I just looked at the website it listed the event as "date to be determined" so it would seem that they may be having problems with his schedule.

They are an interesting bunch of people. They seem to be just a group of friends that want more blues dancing and commision what are in effect large private lessons. They just seem to want to cover their costs but get american blues dance teachers over here and run blues only dances to satisfy their own cravings for blues dance.

[straycat]

OK, tried it – not much better, though at least I see he's twitching in time to the music.

Hmmm. Think of it as an (optional) extra bit of styling. To me, it suits his style and looks good, although I doubt I'd try it myself (styling like that is highly individual, and often doesn't sit right when just copied) That's just me. Some people will like it, some won't.

& don't confuse it as a Lindy thing. You can see some great lindy-style connection going on there, but none of the styling is inherently lindy-hop based.

[Beowulf]

some interesting vids above !! giving me some ideas.
:respect:

[animaltalk]

As you are a very fortunate Aberdeen gent, I suggest you speak to some of the more experienced Aberdeen ladies and ask them to give you some pointers.

The ladies of Aberdeen are in my humble opinion absolutely fabulous and extremely good at blusing. So, if you have fabulous advice right on your doorstep

I afraid it is something that you can go all technical on, but I think the best bluesing occurs when you just let got and stop thinking about moves but dance as if you had the room to yourself and you and your lady are 1.

A tad esoteric - - Something more practical.

1) Take your favourite emotional track (not neccessarily jive track), and listen to it again and again.
2) Listen for: The breaks/pauses, the tempo increases and decreases, the changes in pitch and volume and the key lyrics
3) Keep listening until you can here them coming, and predict them 90% of the time
4) How do those changes in music make you feel, angry, sad, passionate,happy,frustrated,tender
4b) How do the lyrics make you feel.
5)If you were on your own no-one watching how would you express those feelings.
6) Now with an experienced partner, who you are comfortable with close in, dance to that track - no moves, just stepping side to side, close hold. try and convey that emotion of how you are feeling.
By hand placement, rate of breathing, height, tension,speed of movement, speed of change of direction
7) When you're comfortable doing that, then at the same time as you are leading her, sense how she is feeling - is she lagging behind you, tense, going up on her toes, sinking down.
8) Once you are comfortable doing that with nothing more complicated than stepping side to side, then you can start throwing that passion and improvisation into more standard moves.

Hope that helps

NTV

[Beowulf]

As you are a very fortunate Aberdeen gent, I suggest you speak to some of the more experienced Aberdeen ladies and ask them to give you some pointers.
NTV

I followed your advice and went down the docks last night. Pretty expensive evening but still none the wiser about my dancing ;)

Seriously though I've not made it back dancing yet despite my best intentions but when I get back I'll certainly ask some of my female friends for their advice :worthy:

[Ghost]

I followed your advice and went down the docks last night. Pretty expensive evening but still none the wiser about my dancing ;)

"Is it not the case that dancing is the vertical expression of a horizontal desire legalised by music?” ~ George Bernard Shaw
:devil:

Next time take an Ipod or something :whistle:
Be Well,
Christopher

[Ghost]

On a slightly more serious note....

One of the big problems with Blues / slow dancing is falling into the trap of thinking that Shaw was in fact right :blush: While slow / blues can certainly be done that way :drool: , I find it helps to find other ways of approaching it - different vibes / feelings.

eg 2 angels dancing, two people doing tai chi, two kids messing around, swashbuckling.

The Playroom thread's a good example. How would "W" dance with Taz, The Princess etc to slow music - think panache and flair :cool: rather than snuggling :kiss: .

Hope that helps,
Christopher

[Beowulf]

On a slightly more serious note....

How would "W" dance with Taz?



W? Serious? hehehe.. my cloaked alter ego emerging into the real world? That would be scary. but I get your point.. have to get into the right mindframe. Suave.. Sophisticated.. and preferably not blowing up the houses of Parliament at the end of the dance :wink:

[Ghost]

and preferably not blowing up the houses of Parliament at the end of the dance :wink:
Unless of course that's a metaphor for a very cool finish :waycool: (some kind of aerial maybe? :wink: )

[cms]

"Is it not the case that dancing is the vertical expression of a horizontal desire legalised by music?” ~ George Bernard Shaw
:devil:

Next time take an Ipod or something :whistle:
Be Well,
Christopher

thats my quote on msn!!! :grin:

C xx

[Freya]

Have been trying to lead more blusey moves at freestyles with some of my favorite followers!

Unfortunately have not been the most succesful! My most succesful dancing partner for blues to date is ClaireS. It must be the eyes...and the look...and the fact that I'm totally comfortable leading her to blues music! Although Aleks and piglet are great blues followers too! Funilly enough one of the other good followers I've managed tolead blues with is Azande!

Hmmmm Reverse role Blues anyone???