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NZ Monkey
14th-August-2006, 12:59 PM
Specifically - as Ceroc continues to grow and attract more students, do you think the overall quality of the experience will be improved or will it suffer?

This thread is inspired by a couple of posts on the ''Making Ceroc Cool'' thread, as below:


On a related note, what proportion of the fantastic dancers in the MJ scene have other dance experience in more formal settings than the Ceroc venues? I suspect that the percentage is very high, unless they were learning in the days before the classes became so large that individual attention was still a possibility for the teachers. Of the ones that are left, how many of those have been actively engaged in other physical activities that stress posture, balance and movement? What proportion is then left that was trained solely in the Ceroc scene? Important lessons can be learned from other schools of dance and re-introduced to MJ if the student comes back to it eventually (and there are a lot of reasons why one would come back - I don't want to sound like Mr Negativity after all...). So perhaps the better question is ''Do we need people to explore other styles to help safeguard against the declining standards that are inevitable as Ceroc continues to grow''?. Contrasted by
It is rising standards that are inevitable, and, IMO, to be guarded against. To me Ceroc is about learning to love learning to dance. The natural trend is raise the standard, and to move the gateway ever higher up the hill, and then wonder why they are not coming in like they used to.

To give context to the posts, I was referring to the technical ability of the typical punter compared to that of the best in the MJ scene, and asking where many of the details that made them as good as they are came from.

I was referring only to technical skill when I wrote this, but I appreciate that the whole Ceroc experience is more than that.

My questions are thus:
1) Do you think that as Ceroc has grown over the years (lets say the last 10 for the sake of argument) the instruction has become more strict or more lax in a technical sense.

2) From the punters perspective, do you think it *should* become more strict or lax?

3) Have the other elements that make Ceroc what is (party nights, weekenders, social night out...general fun and good times) been enhanced or diminished over that time as well?

Twirly
14th-August-2006, 01:21 PM
Having only been Ceroc dancing for just over a year, I can’t comment much on the changing scene.

However your post seems to be suggesting that the raising of the standard of dance in Ceroc will damage the dance – I’m not sure that I get the logic in this. Do you mean that it will appear harder/more exclusive to those who might consider joining and therefore put them off?

NZ Monkey
14th-August-2006, 01:40 PM
Having only been Ceroc dancing for just over a year, I can’t comment much on the changing scene.

However your post seems to be suggesting that the raising of the standard of dance in Ceroc will damage the dance – I’m not sure that I get the logic in this. Do you mean that it will appear harder/more exclusive to those who might consider joining and therefore put them off?That's exactly what I want to discuss and find out what people's opinions are :wink:

Being a highly opinionated foreigner I've got my own views of course. I thought I'd let others with local knowledge express their opinions first though rather than just ride in and start telling everyone how they should things and where they should go with them. :whistle:

So? What do you think?

Twirly
14th-August-2006, 01:54 PM
I would have thought that Ceroc was a big enough organisation to encompass all levels quite happily – I don’t see that raising the teaching standard (if that’s what you mean) would necessarily put some people off.

It’s already the case that for those who have never danced, coming to a beginners class is already very intimidating. And if they then wait and see those who can dance well doing freestyle – well, if that doesn’t put them off then nothing will! I think that this is particularly the case for men, who in this country will often have never done any formal dancing (certainly the one guy whom I’ve “recruited” fits this description), let alone partner dancing. A lot of women will have at least been put through ballet as children, and maybe other types of dancing. They are used to having someone tell them how to move.

However, if you want to keep the extremely good dancers, then yes, the bar will probably need to be raised or they’ll spin off into other types of dance and may or may not come back. I find watching the good dancers both a good way to learn, and something to aspire to (even if some of that aspiration is hopeless, I’ll never be that good!).

In the other thread, it was mentioned that personal attention isn’t that great on the average class night. In a formal manner once you’ve hit intermediates, maybe not. But if your average punter wants to get extra attention, they’ll find a way. For those with money, there are the workshops and even private lessons. Even if you don’t, just grabbing the teacher once in a while and asking for tips on something works well (am going to be asking questions on something tonight actually – if I can stay awake that long!).

How would you like to see things develop?

bigdjiver
14th-August-2006, 02:46 PM
...My questions are thus:
1) Do you think that as Ceroc has grown over the years (lets say the last 10 for the sake of argument) the instruction has become more strict or more lax in a technical sense.The standard at the beginner level has remained about the same, and I strongly believe that this is right. A beginner is still a beginner, their level will not have changed. The Ceroc formula is a proven success.


2) From the punters perspective, do you think it *should* become more strict or lax?The punters now include people that have been doing MJ for years. Ceroc has to cater for their needs too now, but not at the expense of the approach to beginners.


3) Have the other elements that make Ceroc what is (party nights, weekenders, social night out...general fun and good times) been enhanced or diminished over that time as well?some ways better, some ways worse. I cannot speak for other franchises but Ceroc Central used to do themed nights which I found a lot of fun. (I still feel guilty about not joining in as much as much as I should have.) OTOH there is a consistently higher standard than there used to be. Smoking has been banned. Lessons have been learned.
Ceroc are providing weekenders now, and more variety of workshops, and at a higher standard.

If they raise the bar they might drop high jump and take up limbo dancing.

TA Guy
14th-August-2006, 04:16 PM
I don't think the instruction of your average Ceroc teacher has become more strict or less lax. I've seen it affected by the quality of an individual teacher, but overall, no.

Do I think it should become more strict or lax technically? No, Ceroc is very good at what it does, a low level introduction to partner dance. You can't actually get much lower :) but to make it higher would be a mistake of epic proportions. That's not to say there isn't a place for classes with a more strict technical outlook, but I see no reason why the Ceroc organisation has to be the one to provide this.

It's very difficult for me to judge whether those things have improved Ceroc in ten years because that's smack in the middle of my keenest 'phase'. The novelty factor and all that was still just about there, but I had progressed beyond the beginner side of things. So my view of that time is tainted.
Ten (to 12) years ago was actually a bit of a peak for Ceroc, it was on TV (at least two national proggies I remember, (plus numerous 'local' stuff), showcases on Come Dancing. etc. etc. Had it's own magazine (ok, was produced by Ceroc, but very glossy, slick and great photos... save for it was a bit lacking in pages, wouldn't have looked out of place on a newsagents shelf with a bit of tweaking). Ceroc was expanding rapidly, had good competition from LeJive etc. There was definitely a buzz about then.

Things have changed. No 24 hour marathons for charity, the rise of competitions. Freestyles are pretty much the same, but far more frequent. Tho I will say that peeps use to dress up more for ordinary freestyles :) Weekenders appear to have improved immeasurably. Far more workshops covering far more topics now. Theme nights not so frequent. Maybe not so many 'formal' do's outside xmas, Black and White balls, Valentines do's, that sort of thing. Far more hotshots (Ceroc snobs we used to call them) these days. LOL. Oh, and a lot of what we learn't as 'Style' back then, has been brushed off and re-packaged as Musicality :) The move from Lindy being the more popular next dance to learn, to Blues being the more popular next dance to learn. Salsa has always been a popular next choice. WCS was, of course, unheard of back then.
Lots of changes.
All this prolly varies over different parts of the country tho.
Overall, there is far more available now. That's gotta be a good thing.

straycat
14th-August-2006, 04:37 PM
I don't think it's a matter of raising or lowering the bar. As you and other posters have said, Ceroc's success owes a lot to its accessibility - it is made very easy to learn and get into initially.

But strict or lax - to be honest, I find these questions a little meaningless. I don't think the instruction has gotten worse (probably better overall) - but I'm not sure that's what you mean - it sounds like you're talking about some kind of imposed standards (sorry if I've gotten this wrong) - which doesn't really fit well with the accessibility ethos.

I don't think the MJ culture can be improved by getting more technical - altering a pretty successful formula, in essence. The way you improve things, I believe, is by inspiring people (us punters) - by the emergence of role models where people look and say 'I want to dance like that!' - something everyone can aspire to, and then provide routes for working up to it. N & N, for example.

Even then, alas, there's a lot of people who, when they find out there's a lot of hard work involved (or more specifically, that it can take you way out of your comfort zones), will then give up on the idea, but I think that'd be even worse if you simply upped the technical level of lessons.

NZ Monkey
14th-August-2006, 06:53 PM
OK, so the general consensus so far is that Ceroc is intended to be very non-technical and a good time out with a focus on the poor beginners who may be way outside their comfort zone?

The standard at the beginner level has remained about the same, and I strongly believe that this is right. A beginner is still a beginner, their level will not have changed. The Ceroc formula is a proven success.

..snip..

The punters now include people that have been doing MJ for years. Ceroc has to cater for their needs too now, but not at the expense of the approach to beginners.

..snip..

Ceroc are providing weekenders now, and more variety of workshops, and at a higher standard.

If they raise the bar they might drop high jump and take up limbo dancing.Bigdjiver, I absolutely agree with you that the level of the beginners teaching is about right. My concern (if that's the right word - Ceroc has managed a long time on it's own without me around after all :P) is really about the progression. Do you think that the peple who have been around for years are getting much support or any value out of the classes?

Do I think it should become more strict or lax technically? No, Ceroc is very good at what it does, a low level introduction to partner dance. You can't actually get much lower but to make it higher would be a mistake of epic proportions. That's not to say there isn't a place for classes with a more strict technical outlook, but I see no reason why the Ceroc organisation has to be the one to provide this.Ceroc definitely makes a very good introduction to partnered dancing, but can it be that *and more* as well? I personally think that it can be. Raising the standard doesn't have to done at a beginner level in the manner I think you're thinking of. I'll try to explain what I mean later in the post.


I don't think the MJ culture can be improved by getting more technical - altering a pretty successful formula, in essence. Now this is an interesting one.... do you mean that by becoming more technically focused the very culture of MJ would change?

Personally, I don't think many people are giving the punters enough credit for their ability to learn without getting scared off by something that might be slightly difficult.

I don't think the instruction has gotten worse (probably better overall) - but I'm not sure that's what you mean - it sounds like you're talking about some kind of imposed standards (sorry if I've gotten this wrong) - which doesn't really fit well with the accessibility ethos.You're pretty close to what I'm thinking of so I'll start elaborating now.

I wouldn't want Ceroc to lose it's accessibility, but on the other hand I wouldn't like to see it focus on the beginner at the expense of the people who have been around a while and are keen to improve either. I've heard teachers make comments in Intermediate classes along the lines of ''It doesn't matter what you do with your feet'' and ''anywhere between 7 and 12 beats is fine for this move'', which is hardly an environment for the people who want to be one of those role model dancers mentioned earlier should be learning in.

To my mind, the problem isn't so much with what is being taught, as the way the ability of the students is distributed in the beginner and intermediate classes. There is a guarantee that you will move into the intermediate class in 6 lessons, when the reality after 6 lessons you've not had enough time to develop some fairly basic skills (like being a clear lead, or having cross pressure to be able to feel something coming). You may have only covered a small selection of moves, or may have only seen each beginner move once or twice over a month or more.

Why not keep people in the beginner class for longer than 6 weeks? Why not 12 or 15? There is no reason why you can't increase the number of moves you teach them somewhat (it isn't like we're going to run out of easy ones after all...) to keep them coming back for new ones if that's what they want (and many will), but it guarantees that the class will be within a certain band of skill. As a teacher, this gives you more time to devote to some of the smaller but important details (because if one person is doing something badly, chances are half of them are doing the same thing as well) without worrying about a large proportion of the class who will know and just be waiting for the next move.

I'm not suggesting a boot camp like environment where we ruthlessly drill beginners in the art of spinning or holding a nice frame, but it would be nice to be working in an environment where a few minutes could be taken each beginner class to improve on these. It isn't much in one go, but it adds up over 15 weeks and can make a big difference to someone’s dancing ability.

I am certain that all of us here enjoy having dances with good dancers as opposed to bad ones. I suggest that if more time is taken in instructing beginners then we will have more competent dancers entering the intermediate class, and unless I'm mistaken that is where most punters start getting more into the freestyle aspect of Ceroc. I can say with absolute confidence that *I* started to enjoy Ceroc a lot more when I became more confident with the freestyle, and that was the direct result of improved basic technique on my part.

By extending the amount of time that beginners spend in the beginner class you can expect to have a narrower band of abilities in the intermediate class, which again makes it easier for the teacher to cater for. In addition, there is more scope for some of the trickier moves to be taught in this class because of the overall level of experience that would have been needed to start taking it in the first place. This will make the classes a tad more interesting and encourage those of have been going for some time to keep coming back for longer, and that's good for everyone (not least the owner).

Whether you'd want to ''impose'' standards to get into the intermediate class is another issue. Personally I would, but I understand that it would rub *many* folk up the wrong way if you started asking them to test for admittance into the intermediate class. The point that there is an ethos of availability here is a valid one.

Still, people tend to dance mostly with those of their own ability anyway in my experience for whatever reason (usually embarrassment) so is keeping them together a little longer in the beginner class so bad? I can't see that having a dance with the teacher on freestyle to get his or her blessing to move up a class is that big a deal and with 12-15 weeks in the beginner classes the teacher is likely to have a fair idea of how well someone is doing anyway.


I would have thought that Ceroc was a big enough organisation to encompass all levels quite happily – I don’t see that raising the teaching standard (if that’s what you mean) would necessarily put some people off.The reason I waited to reply to this post was because I agree with this statement, and at that point nobody had offered any other points of view. If there was a cookie smiley I'd be giving you one for seeing where I was heading. You'll just have to have a drink instead.:cheers:

So, to summarise my incoherent ramble:
Wouldn't it be better if we did more to equalise the range of abilities across the two main classes? After all, two classes is still two classes from the teachers perspective. It's still two classes from the students perspective. There will still be the same number of weekenders, the same parties and events, freestyle will still run at the same times etc. The only catch I can see is that you might want to have more taxi's this way.

Of course, you may just be raising the bar of the students ability in the mid-to-long term as well, but I can't see that you'd be putting people off by doing it this way:wink:

P.S. I'm sure someone will just link me to a thread where this has all been discussed before now :P

NZ Monkey
14th-August-2006, 07:00 PM
The way you improve things, I believe, is by inspiring people (us punters) - by the emergence of role models where people look and say 'I want to dance like that!' - something everyone can aspire to, and then provide routes for working up to it. N & N, for example.
I forgot to include this in my last post.

I'm running on the assumption that N&N are a pair of top rate dancers. Sorry for my ignorence here.:blush:

Just what are the routes for people to become fantastic dancers once they're inspired though. Classes for the people who are not challenged by the intermediate classes? Are there workshops that come by more often that once every few months? Is the only option private lessons?

Twirly
14th-August-2006, 08:00 PM
Am sure that you’ll get far more comprehensive replies than this, but here are a couple of observations…

I think that keeping beginners in review classes for longer is a very good idea – especially for leads. The other week I saw a beginner transfer to intermediate and the poor guy looked totally traumatised as it was a bitch of a routine (experienced leads were struggling). You would have more of an opportunity to teach that dancing technique that gets talked about so much too, which would be particularly good for followers.

However, do the taxi’s have the skill and experience to teach this for such a long period of time and keep the punters interested? I have no doubt that some do, but there’s another thread about the training of taxi dancers and it would seem that in some areas it’s a bit limited. That is an issue that would have to be addressed first.

First time I've done this - so hope it works!
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8918

I think the idea of having an improvers class has been mooted too – something for those transferring from beginners to intermediate to get the classic intermediate moves, since there is no repetition of such moves on a regular basis in intermediates as there is in beginners.

As for passing some sort of test to be allowed up into intermediates… I wouldn’t go there if I was you!! Not from the last debate we had…
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8847&highlight=assessment
And cheers for the drink... :cheers: :wink:

Andreas
14th-August-2006, 08:04 PM
Ceroc tries to buy popularity by excluding exclusivity. :D I consider this a very good approach because it brings it to the masses. However, the draw-back is that it leads to deterioration of the quality of dance on average.

Having said that, the more it matures the more very good dancers you are likely to see.

Teaching in general classes, however, will consequently orientate itself on the market. That means with more people attending classes you will have to drop the level to accommodate the weaker dancers and with more attendees you will also see more slow learners. An example that I partly witnessed myself is Hamilton, NZ. Ceroc Hamilton really has taken off as a financial success story. However, the level of dancing has deteriorated dramatically because so many people were pushed through the classes.

The difficulty lies within motivating your punters. You have to allow them to advance after a while or they lose interest.


So while I believe the level at which Ceroc CAN be danced will increase and you will also see an increasing number of really good dancers. The average will drop and with it the level of classes, which could also be taken the other way around.


However, this is nothing new. You see a similar thing in Ballroom, not to that extent because punters commit to learning technique as part of their medals. You still will see a large amount of people dance a Waltz or so and it really does not look pretty.

David Bailey
14th-August-2006, 08:11 PM
Specifically - as Ceroc continues to grow and attract more students, do you think the overall quality of the experience will be improved or will it suffer?

...

To give context to the posts, I was referring to the technical ability of the typical punter compared to that of the best in the MJ scene, and asking where many of the details that made them as good as they are came from.
I know one guy who's done Ceroc, as purely a dancer, (i.e. not a teacher) for, oh, about 22 years or so now. Probably close to a record that... To my knowledge, he's not really done any other dances in that time; he's very good, of course.

But he's very much the exception. I think most other people, in that timescale, will have become either involved in the scene from a business (e.g. teaching) or will have done one or more other dances, or both, and used that in their dancing.


My questions are thus:
1) Do you think that as Ceroc has grown over the years (lets say the last 10 for the sake of argument) the instruction has become more strict or more lax in a technical sense.
Hmmm.... depends what you mean by "strict / lax", but I guess it's probably more strict, or at least more well-defined. Mike Ellard used to do stuff 10 years ago which he probably wouldn't allow Ceroc teachers to get away with now... :)


2) From the punters perspective, do you think it *should* become more strict or lax?
Depends on the punter. This definition and other business improvements mean (I think) that it's better at pulling in the beginners, but probably no better or worse at retaining the experienced punters.


3) Have the other elements that make Ceroc what is (party nights, weekenders, social night out...general fun and good times) been enhanced or diminished over that time as well?
Definitely enhanced - at least in quantity (quality... hmmm, difficult one.... dunno)

10 years ago there were almost no events on a weekend - hell, even 5 years ago Hammersmith was almost the only weekend social event in Southeast England. Now you get 3 or more in one night.

Also, there's been a vast explosion of new weekenders, even in the past year.

straycat
14th-August-2006, 10:34 PM
I'm running on the assumption that N&N are a pair of top rate dancers. Sorry for my ignorence here.:blush:


Sorry. N&N=Nigel and Nina. Was being a tad lazy there. Top rate, yes, and inspirational for a great many of us at one time or another.

straycat
14th-August-2006, 10:42 PM
I know one guy who's done Ceroc, as purely a dancer, (i.e. not a teacher) for, oh, about 22 years or so now. Probably close to a record that... To my knowledge, he's not really done any other dances in that time; he's very good, of course.

Not sure about the 'of course' - we know at least two who've been doing it for over 10... and are (how to put this diplomatically?) not much better than when they started :confused: :eek: :(

Back to the main post: this is a very tricky area. People (in general) are incredibly status conscious - the number nowadays who're (for example) signing up for the advanced class in Herrang, when they're in actual fact intermediates at best is scary, and you get a lot of folk like that everywhere. My gut feeling is that as soon as you start imposing standards in the kind of way suggested, or prolonging the beginners' period... you reduce the accessibility, and start losing people.

Quite likely, these are people we might not miss :whistle:
But they represent money, and Ceroc is a business, and I'm not sure venue owners can really afford to risk it. Got more to say on this (more positive things too), but I'll have to come back to that tomorrow.

bigdjiver
15th-August-2006, 12:47 AM
Bigdjiver, I absolutely agree with you that the level of the beginners teaching is about right. My concern (if that's the right word - Ceroc has managed a long time on it's own without me around after all :P) is really about the progression. Do you think that the peple who have been around for years are getting much support or any value out of the classes?No, but why should we? It is a dance class. We have learned to dance well enough to enjoy ourselves. Ceroc caters for those still going through that process. Our problem is we just don't know when to move on. Personally I am not now enjoying the intermediate class much, and I do not think they are doing anything perceptible for me. I have taken to watching the demo for any "tell it to the judge" moves, seeing how many ladies are in excess in the class and make my decision based on those factors. If in doubt I then see how many ladies are in excess in the beginners revision class and sometimes help with that. Mostly I resent losing dancing time when the intermediate class overruns. I favour sometimes cutting it down to three "moves". (Some of these seem like dance routines in themselves.)
Now I seek to improve my standard by experimenting during freestyle.

bigdjiver
15th-August-2006, 12:59 AM
.... do you mean that by becoming more technically focused the very culture of MJ would change?

Personally, I don't think many people are giving the punters enough credit for their ability to learn without getting scared off by something that might be slightly difficult..I think the culture would change. I lived through the days when ballroom was dying as part of the popular cuture and moving through the "Come Dancing" competitive technical phase on its way to (around here) the fortnightly geriatric tea dance, and the youngsters go to a studio to earn medals.

bigdjiver
15th-August-2006, 01:06 AM
...I'm not suggesting a boot camp like environment where we ruthlessly drill beginners in the art of spinning or holding a nice frame, but it would be nice to be working in an environment where a few minutes could be taken each beginner class to improve on these...In the classes I attend style tips are drip fed into the lessons. Whilst I was struggling to learn the moves I did not even realise it was happening. It is also a regular feature to stop the class and have "how to spin" mini-lesson.

David Franklin
15th-August-2006, 09:19 AM
So while I believe the level at which Ceroc CAN be danced will increase and you will also see an increasing number of really good dancers. The average will drop and with it the level of classes, which could also be taken the other way around.This may have happened, but from a UK perspective, the "tipping point" where Ceroc classes grew to the point where punters no longer got individual attention is almost ancient history. I've been dancing about 8 years now, and the classes I went to then were actually bigger than now. (Don't read too much into the whys - the main reason was a "random event": the demolition of the Central Club venue).

But looking at my own experience, I would say the standard of dancing has actually gone up quite a lot over those 8 years. There's more discussion about lead and connection; the taxi-dancers seem to teach a lot more actively and are more knowledgeable; and best of all, people are being taught earlier to stop bouncing! :D

There's also a lot more available for the "advanced" dancer; from advanced classes to workshops and private lessons. The improvements are very visible if you look at early competition footage. Look at the standard of the Advanced (top category then) Ceroc Champs final back in 1999; these days there are literally hundreds of couples who could dance better than that.

In the interests of balance, I also have footage from a Lejive Competition a few years earlier still (95?). I'd say the general "quality of dancing" is about the same as the '99 Ceroc champs (more variation - some were really bad, some were very good. I think teachers were allowed in the Lejive comp), but there were a heck of a lot more tricks. At the extreme point, that was when Andy and Rena competed in aerials, and in the last 10 years I don't think anyone else has come up to that standard at Lindy-style airsteps.

It's hard to say if that's a size of class thing, a change in style over the years, or a difference between Ceroc and LeJive. (I've also heard Ceroc really deemphasized tricks after someone got hurt and took them to court).

TA Guy
15th-August-2006, 10:31 AM
But looking at my own experience, I would say the standard of dancing has actually gone up quite a lot over those 8 years. There's more discussion about lead and connection; the taxi-dancers seem to teach a lot more actively and are more knowledgeable; and best of all, people are being taught earlier to stop bouncing! :D

There's also a lot more available for the "advanced" dancer; from advanced classes to workshops and private lessons. The improvements are very visible if you look at early competition footage. Look at the standard of the Advanced (top category then) Ceroc Champs final back in 1999; these days there are literally hundreds of couples who could dance better than that.

In the interests of balance, I also have footage from a Lejive Competition a few years earlier still (95?). I'd say the general "quality of dancing" is about the same as the '99 Ceroc champs (more variation - some were really bad, some were very good. I think teachers were allowed in the Lejive comp), but there were a heck of a lot more tricks. At the extreme point, that was when Andy and Rena competed in aerials, and in the last 10 years I don't think anyone else has come up to that standard at Lindy-style airsteps.

It's hard to say if that's a size of class thing, a change in style over the years, or a difference between Ceroc and LeJive. (I've also heard Ceroc really deemphasized tricks after someone got hurt and took them to court).


Competitions are much more part of the Ceroc conciousness now than in 97-98. Over the years, the number of people taking competitions seriously has risen dramatically. Far more 'practising' etc. than there ever was back then. But that is all unique to competitions, and despite their popularity today, competitions dancers only comprise a small percentage of the general Ceroc population..

Can you extrapolate the rise in competition standard to infer a rise in general standards at Ceroc ?

David Bailey
15th-August-2006, 11:05 AM
Can you extrapolate the rise in competition standard to infer a rise in general standards at Ceroc ?
Hmmm.... dunno about that.

I'd say that it's more a case of the dance is (slowly, very bloody slowly) developing and improving, and that means that competitions, showcases and advanced dancers are a natural consequence of a more mature dance form.

Clearly, there's a steady progression of dancers getting better as time goes on. The question is, do these dancers stay doing MJ, or are they being lost - for example, to other dances?

So if there were, say, 100 MJ dancers a year "graduating" to "advanced" level, but lost 150 MJ "advanced" dancers to, say, WCS / Tango / etc., then clearly the overall standard decreases.

On the other hand, if MJ only lost 50 "advanced" dancers a year, then the standard improves.

Of course, because there's no clear definitions of "advanced" dancers, it's very difficult to tell - but I think there are more good dancers, at least local to where I dance, than there were 10 years ago.

I've no idea whether the "overall level" of dancing is better or worse than 10 years ago, however, it depends on the number of beginners etc.

David Franklin
15th-August-2006, 11:27 AM
Competitions are much more part of the Ceroc conciousness now than in 97-98. Over the years, the number of people taking competitions seriously has risen dramatically. Far more 'practising' etc. than there ever was back then. But that is all unique to competitions, and despite their popularity today, competitions dancers only comprise a small percentage of the general Ceroc population..The thing about competitions is that they're a fairly "objective" record of the past. I think much of what we see as "declining standards" is that as we get better, we see more flaws in the dancing we see around us. It's only by looking at past footage that we see all those flaws were around back then, we just didn't notice them. There were performances I regarded with awe back at the first Ceroc champs, but now looking at them on video I'm thinking "That's such bad dancing."


Can you extrapolate the rise in competition standard to infer a rise in general standards at Ceroc ?I think I'd accept that the "average" Ceroc dancer hasn't got much better. I'm not sure that's going to change much while Ceroc remains so accessible. But back 5 years ago, there was a sizeable minority who were "keen to improve, but didn't see how to". There are a lot more avenues for that minority to take, and a lot of them have done so. That's not just competition dancers; I'd guess most of that minority don't compete, or at least don't practice to compete. I can certainly think of dancers who don't compete but would stand up well against the best of 1999. I think that those improvements at the "high end" do all filter down to affect the general standard, albeit not greatly. I think the taxi-dancers do a lot more to "train" beginners these days as well, which also makes a difference.

In a nutshell, I just don't see any objective evidence to say standards have fallen over the last 7 years, and a fair amount of evidence they have risen. So I am unconvinced by NZ Monkey's suggestion that "declining standards that are inevitable as Ceroc continues to grow''.

Twirly
15th-August-2006, 12:39 PM
I think there are two strands to this discussion. Firstly there’s the subject of the good dancers getting even better – those at advanced/competition level. Then there’s the average dancer who goes to socialise. The level they are going to be able to rise to is limited – by their ability, time, age, fitness, money and motivation. It might help to be more specific about which group we are referring to.

Because the people on this forum bother to take the time and effort to see an online resource to discuss Ceroc at all, they tend to be those who are a tad more passionate about their dancing (I suspect). And therefore maybe not quite so representative of the average punter.

It doesn’t matter how much you provide for the average dancer in terms of possibility of progression within Ceroc, the majority are probably not going to take it/be able to improve. I guess that this could lead to a “dumbing down” of ability as Ceroc expands.

Gadget
15th-August-2006, 01:14 PM
...[more discapline and more stringent 'rules']...No.
You are imposing what you think would (/would have) worked for you onto the model that does (/has) worked well for a long time.
There have been changes, but they are more refinements and tweaking to the shape. For example the 'essentials', dropping some 'beginner' moves and adding in some other ones, having seperate "Core intermediate" moves {or whatever they are called} etc.

What has happened is that the number of dancers reaching a better standard has increased and they are reaching this level quicker. So if there is not anything above to cater for them, they will fall away. I'm fairly lucky in that I live/dance in Scotland under Franck's banner ~ we seem to have people looking to stretch higher and reach further than most with teaching and support to back it up.

I like teachers saying "you can take between 6 and 8 counts on this move" because I can then work out how to take 6 and how to take 8. It give beginners confidence that what they were doing was OK and I can stretch myself. If they say "It dosn't matter which foot", then I will try with one, then the other and see what feels better and what the differences are. I will use the 'wrong' foot, step in instead of out, turn on the back foot, spin on the heel and play with every aspect of a move I can think on. I can do this and it's all right. I'm not told that it's wrong. I am given advice on what may look better, what may work better and what may happen if I get it wrong - this is open teaching. And it works for all levels of dancer.

"Raising the bar" - what does that actually mean? Are there some technical details that would be detrimental for a beginner dancer to learn, but a more advanced one would be better for?

bigdjiver
15th-August-2006, 02:49 PM
Basically there is a sort of pyramid of levels of dancing. As the size of the pyramid increases there are more and more at the bottom level. Nevertheless the centre of gravity, or in this case the average standard gets gradually higher as the pyramid expands.
To carry the analogy further. the people at the top of the pyramid do not need such a large base. They can cut it away to form a clumn. They are still on top, and the average standard in the column is higher.

As for the cutaway group, the pyramid has lost its point. I do not want Ceroc to lose its point.

David Bailey
15th-August-2006, 04:32 PM
{ pyramid stuff }
You lost me at "Basically"... :rofl:

I can't really see how you can measure whether the "average" level of dancing at a Ceroc venue (however that is judged) is changing.

The only objective measurement is time (number of classes / amount of time dancing) - for example, if 10 years ago the average amount of time danced per dancer was 1 year (or 20 classes), and if now it's 6 months (or 10 classes), then that would be some indication that the standard has declined.

But "time dancing / number of classes" is a very poor measure - especially if you consider that the standard of teaching has changed (improved, in my opinion) over the years. So 10 classes now might be as effective as 20 classes was 10 years ago.

NZ Monkey
15th-August-2006, 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NZ Monkey
...[more discapline and more stringent 'rules']...

No.
You are imposing what you think would (/would have) worked for you onto the model that does (/has) worked well for a long time. ...and this is the classic straw man fallacy...

I have been very careful to *not* sound like that is my opinion Gadget, partially because I understand that in a written forum things can be misconstrued and taken personally in ways that would never happen speaking face-to-face, and partially because as a foreigner it is *very easy* for locals to take anything I say about Ceroc here as a criticism because I have different experiences overseas. The same thing happens in New Zealand.

For the record, I do not want to enforce discipline or further rules on thousands of people who just go out for a good time. I do not want to wave my magic wand and make everything happen the way I'm suggesting either. I’m not arrogant enough for that. I'd love it if I could *and* everyone would be happy, but that just isn't going to happen.

Please use actual quotes of what I said if you intend to respond to my comments, especially in a direct manner. I resent being misrepresented, especially if I am being attacked on the basis of that misrepresentation. Of course, you may not have intended the first few lines of your post as an attack (and it doesn't have to be read that way) so please don't take this personally either :innocent:

I know I spent a long post explaining my thoughts on the classes, but that was just for the sake of clarity..... and because I spend all day on a computer looking for work here and rambling gives me some way to break up the soul crushing monotony of job seeking.

I think there are two strands to this discussion. Firstly there’s the subject of the good dancers getting even better – those at advanced/competition level. Then there’s the average dancer who goes to socialise. The level they are going to be able to rise to is limited – by their ability, time, age, fitness, money and motivation. It might help to be more specific about which group we are referring to.

Because the people on this forum bother to take the time and effort to see an online resource to discuss Ceroc at all, they tend to be those who are a tad more passionate about their dancing (I suspect). And therefore maybe not quite so representative of the average punter.

It doesn’t matter how much you provide for the average dancer in terms of possibility of progression within Ceroc, the majority are probably not going to take it/be able to improve. I guess that this could lead to a “dumbing down” of ability as Ceroc expands.Twirly has hit the nail on the head yet again (are you looking for a job as a translater for me Twirly?:flower: ).

The social aspect of Ceroc is fantastic! I love that it's a friendly environment where plenty of people can just go and have a good time with no serious pressures to anything to any level. It's just a good atmosphere, and I commend the company for creating that as well as it does.

My experience with any service on the other hand is that as the client base expands the less quality the service becomes. This is especially true with education and training (which is what being taught to dance is) but also true with health, fast food, transport.... The service is always struggling to keep up quality, and more punters don't improve the situation for it. It might be making more money, but the quality suffers.

Now, on the social side of things I can't see that it could have gotten worse over time, as the combination of many people and music is a tried and true recipe for a good time. My question was whether the other side had been allowed to decline as well in favour of the social scene. From what I've been told so far; it hasn't.


Teaching in general classes, however, will consequently orientate itself on the market. That means with more people attending classes you will have to drop the level to accommodate the weaker dancers and with more attendees you will also see more slow learners. An example that I partly witnessed myself is Hamilton, NZ. Ceroc Hamilton really has taken off as a financial success story. However, the level of dancing has deteriorated dramatically because so many people were pushed through the classes.This is what I would expect to see everywhere in all honesty. It may be that Ceroc in the UK has gone past that stage in it's commercial evolution so long ago that nobody remembers. I may be totally wrong and it never happened at all. I'd love to find out though.


So while I believe the level at which Ceroc CAN be danced will increase and you will also see an increasing number of really good dancers. The average will drop and with it the level of classes, which could also be taken the other way around.This is also what I would expect. There is someting of a numbers game or a ''law of averages'' involved. The more people you have, the more people will become top dancers. I strongly suspect that the proportion of them is much lower with a huge number of punters than a smaller one, but there will certainly be more of them around in absolute terms. You can also expect them to continue getting better over time as they are clearly devoted to doing so. Does that mean they've gotten there because of the way things are done or in spite of them?:devil:


The thing about competitions is that they're a fairly "objective" record of the past. I think much of what we see as "declining standards" is that as we get better, we see more flaws in the dancing we see around us. It's only by looking at past footage that we see all those flaws were around back then, we just didn't notice them. There were performances I regarded with awe back at the first Ceroc champs, but now looking at them on video I'm thinking "That's such bad dancing." Very true. Good point that man...


I think I'd accept that the "average" Ceroc dancer hasn't got much better. I'm not sure that's going to change much while Ceroc remains so accessible. But back 5 years ago, there was a sizeable minority who were "keen to improve, but didn't see how to". There are a lot more avenues for that minority to take, and a lot of them have done so. That's not just competition dancers; I'd guess most of that minority don't compete, or at least don't practice to compete. I can certainly think of dancers who don't compete but would stand up well against the best of 1999. I think that those improvements at the "high end" do all filter down to affect the general standard, albeit not greatly. I think the taxi-dancers do a lot more to "train" beginners these days as well, which also makes a difference.

In a nutshell, I just don't see any objective evidence to say standards have fallen over the last 7 years, and a fair amount of evidence they have risen. So I am unconvinced by NZ Monkey's suggestion that "declining standards that are inevitable as Ceroc continues to grow''.Sorry David, I'm a little confused here. To me it seems that you've admitted that the ''standard'' level hasn't improved significantly, and that the improvements in the high end have had little to no effect on the general standard (and I am making the assumption that competition is high end here). What is the evidence that it's improved in general then? Do you mean that it has risen, but not much, or that the competition level has improved a lot? Or something else entirely? :yum:


As for the cutaway group, the pyramid has lost its point. I do not want Ceroc to lose its point.Strictly speaking it still has four of them, but I take your point :yum:


I like teachers saying "you can take between 6 and 8 counts on this move" because I can then work out how to take 6 and how to take 8. It give beginners confidence that what they were doing was OK and I can stretch myself. If they say "It dosn't matter which foot", then I will try with one, then the other and see what feels better and what the differences are. I will use the 'wrong' foot, step in instead of out, turn on the back foot, spin on the heel and play with every aspect of a move I can think on. I can do this and it's all right. I'm not told that it's wrong. I am given advice on what may look better, what may work better and what may happen if I get it wrong - this is open teaching. And it works for all levels of dancer.It's really the off-handed manner these statements were made with that concerns me, with a sort of ''I can't be bothered breaking the timing down for you'' tone. It doesn't make me feel valued. I also agree that it's good to play with what works and what doesn't, but surely it's best to do this when the student has developed a solid base to work from first? I'm sure Jackie Chans teacher didn't teach him how to do a forward roll, and then go on to doing something similar over rotating saws or some maniac waving a sword at him... (that may be stretching an analogy a little, but I like it anyway). Additionally, it doesn't help the students if nobody is following, or at least trying to follow, the same timing in the class.


"Raising the bar" - what does that actually mean? Are there some technical details that would be detrimental for a beginner dancer to learn, but a more advanced one would be better for?It's just a catchy title for a thread. I think my original post was pretty clear in intent.

David Bailey
15th-August-2006, 04:35 PM
It had to happen - a Gadget / NZ Monkey debate... :eek:

It's a slow reader's worst nightmare, innit? :whistle:

NZ Monkey
15th-August-2006, 04:37 PM
It had to happen - a Gadget / NZ Monkey debate...

It's a slow reader's worst nightmare, innit? :yeah: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Just think of the slow typing monkey....:sick:

NZ Monkey
15th-August-2006, 04:40 PM
I'm fairly lucky in that I live/dance in Scotland under Franck's banner ~ we seem to have people looking to stretch higher and reach further than most with teaching and support to back it up.
Oops, forgot about this one...

You're a lucky man :D

David Franklin
15th-August-2006, 04:57 PM
Sorry David, I'm a little confused here. To me it seems that you've admitted that the ''standard'' level hasn't improved significantly, and that the improvements in the high end have had little to no effect on the general standard (and I am making the assumption that competition is high end here). What is the evidence that it's improved in general then? Do you mean that it has risen, but not much, or that the competition level has improved a lot? Both. Competition level has improved hugely. Keen non-competitor level has improved significantly. Average level has improved a bit. And to repeat myself, I see no evidence the standard at any level has fallen signficantly, contrary to your initial hypothesis.


As a foreigner it is *very easy* for locals to take anything I say about Ceroc here as a criticism because I have different experiences overseas.
Frankly, I don't think you can keep posting about how UK Ceroc ought to change how it does things without people getting a subtext that you do actually think "it's all much better in NZ". Particularly when you do seem to shrug off many of the responses disagreeing with you.

Veterans to the forum will recall someone else taking a similar line way back in 2002 or so. It did not end prettily.

MartinHarper
15th-August-2006, 05:01 PM
Do you think that as Ceroc has grown over the years (lets say the last 10 for the sake of argument) the instruction has become more strict or more lax in a technical sense. ... From the punters perspective, do you think it *should* become more strict or lax?

It's hard to be strict in a technical sense in a dance where nobody agrees on what correct technique is.


if your average punter wants to get extra attention, they’ll find a way.

Nah, I want more individual attention than I get in a Ceroc class, but I don't get it. It's about how much you want that attention, how much effort/money you're willing to put in, and how demanding you are as a student. Besides, a good teacher can provide just the right piece of individual guidance at just the right time, which is the really useful thing. That's not attainable within the Ceroc framework. I Went to some random Hollywood Lindy lesson yesterday, and the teacher excelled in this area. Despite the class being for folks with zero Lindy experience, and the teacher not being a Lindy specialist, I felt I learnt something just because of this.


Why not keep people in the beginner class for longer than 6 weeks?

They do. There are folks who've been coming for years who still do the beginner class. What they don't do is keep them in the beginner review class for longer than 6 weeks. I'm not sure that it'd be good if they did. Being stretched is good. Taxis are not as good at teaching as teachers, on average.


There is more scope for some of the trickier moves to be taught in this class because of the overall level of experience that would have been needed to start taking it in the first place.

Ceroc intermediate classes don't need more tricky moves.


I've heard teachers make comments in Intermediate classes along the lines of ''It doesn't matter what you do with your feet'' and ''anywhere between 7 and 12 beats is fine for this move'', which is hardly an environment for the people who want to be one of those role model dancers mentioned earlier should be learning in.

That can vary. 'It doesn't matter what you do with your feet'' could mean that it doesn't matter, so you may as well just root your feet or walk through the move. Or, it could mean that you can do lots of different things with your feet, and here are a few examples: you could do this, or that, or some kinda twisty thing, or.... . Normally it's the first approach, though. Indeed, a shame.

Twirly
15th-August-2006, 05:07 PM
Twirly has hit the nail on the head yet again (are you looking for a job as a translater for me Twirly? ).

So where's my rep then?!!:wink:

MartinHarper
15th-August-2006, 05:07 PM
Additionally, it doesn't help the students if nobody is following, or at least trying to follow, the same timing in the class.

I disagree. If leaders are slightly less predictable in what they're attempting to lead, for whatever reason, that really helps lead/follow - particularly where direct teaching of lead/follow is weak.

NZ Monkey
15th-August-2006, 05:36 PM
Frankly, I don't think you can keep posting about how UK Ceroc ought to change how it does things without people getting a subtext that you do actually think "it's all much better in NZ". Particularly when you do seem to shrug off many of the responses disagreeing with you.Well, I did try to defend my position in my last post and state categorically that this was not what I was trying to do....

...still, I also realise that most will see it any way they like and if it can be seen as an attack it most likely will. Point taken.

I would also like to say that I do not see myself as shrugging off responses disagreing with me so much as responding and discussing them.

I'll back off now, and will try to avoid rocking the boat. I'm probably not doing myself any favours continuing the discussion.

bigdjiver
15th-August-2006, 07:32 PM
...I would also like to say that I do not see myself as shrugging off responses disagreing with me so much as responding and discussing them.

I'll back off now, and will try to avoid rocking the boat. I'm probably not doing myself any favours continuing the discussion.I am all in favour of continuing the discussion. Either NZ Monkey or us needs educating. N.Z. Ceroc may well be better than U.K. Ceroc, for a start its got N.Z.

David Bailey
15th-August-2006, 08:05 PM
My experience with any service on the other hand is that as the client base expands the less quality the service becomes. This is especially true with education and training (which is what being taught to dance is) but also true with health, fast food, transport.... The service is always struggling to keep up quality, and more punters don't improve the situation for it. It might be making more money, but the quality suffers.
In theory, the franchise model of Ceroc should avoid the worst of these problems - your local franchisee should be accountable, flexible and responsive to local requirements. Hmmmm...

Gadget
15th-August-2006, 10:04 PM
{this will probably be lengthy; apologies in advance... :rolleyes:}

...and this is the classic straw man fallacy...
Please use actual quotes of what I said if you intend to respond to my comments...
OK - appologies if I have miss-read you; the following are the bits I dissagree with:
I've heard teachers make comments in Intermediate classes along the lines of ''It doesn't matter what you do with your feet'' and ''anywhere between 7 and 12 beats is fine for this move'', which is hardly an environment for the people who want to be one of those role model dancers mentioned earlier should be learning in.
because I think it is the ideal enviroment for people who want to learn.

There is a guarantee that you will move into the intermediate class in 6 lessons, when the reality after 6 lessons you've not had enough time to develop some fairly basic skills (like being a clear lead, or having cross pressure to be able to feel something coming). You may have only covered a small selection of moves, or may have only seen each beginner move once or twice over a month or more.
There is no "guarantee", and I am still learning these things after many (many) years. In some places it's "6 lessons", in others it's "6 weeks", in others it's "12 weeks" and if you actually talk to the teacher, it's "whenever you feel ready". I see no problem in any of these.

[teaching more and different moves]...but it guarantees that the class will be within a certain band of skill.
I dissagree with this - less time to teach, therefore less detail can be given. Kept at the same moves, the common pitfalls can be examined and known without watching the class for it all the time

I'm not suggesting a boot camp like environment where we ruthlessly drill beginners in the art of spinning or holding a nice frame, but it would be nice to be working in an environment where a few minutes could be taken each beginner class to improve on these.
That's what the "ceroc essentials" can be (and sometimes is) used for. That's why the basic set of "beginner" moves has been selected - it gives teachers the opportunity to not only go over these things, but put them in the context of a move.

By extending the amount of time that beginners spend in the beginner class you can expect to have a narrower band of abilities in the intermediate class, which again makes it easier for the teacher to cater for...
Increasing the time beginners spend in the beginners class will bore them quicker and switch them off; "heard it - I know what to do - I've done it three times in class already".
Easier for teachers? Why? Are the pupils more attentive? More willing to learn? What do they now know that would make it easier for the teacher? Should it be easier?

...In addition, there is more scope for some of the trickier moves to be taught in this class because of the overall level of experience that would have been needed to start taking it in the first place.
?? What experiance would make a 'tricky' move any easier other than having done something similar before? How can beginners ever get into this class if they can't get the experiance of the class in the first place?
Again, this is one of the main reasons that the current selection of "Beginenr" moves has been selected - there are very few movements used in other moves that are not contained within the basics.

This will make the classes a tad more interesting and encourage those of have been going for some time to keep coming back for longer, and that's good for everyone (not least the owner).
Isn't it the teachers's job to make the class more interesting? Why is the best way you can think on to do this is adding "tricky" moves? I thought you wanted technique?

Whether you'd want to ''impose'' standards to get into the intermediate class is another issue. Personally I would, but I understand that it would rub *many* folk up the wrong way if you started asking them to test for admittance into the intermediate class. The point that there is an ethos of availability here is a valid one.
Like asking for cards to show your level? :rolleyes: The ethos of availability is that it's open for all: you can take as much or as little from a class as you feel able.

So my opinion is "No" to just about all of it.


It's really the off-handed manner these statements were made with that concerns me, with a sort of ''I can't be bothered breaking the timing down for you'' tone. It doesn't make me feel valued.Must depend on the teacher. :shrug: Any time that something like this is said, I normally watch the teacher work out the different counts - that makes me feel more valued.


I also agree that it's good to play with what works and what doesn't, but surely it's best to do this when the student has developed a solid base to work from first?
Yes - but how do they develop this base? You seem to be suggesting through lots of classes and holding them untill someone judges them ready to be let loose. I am suggesting from practice and experiance on the dance floor. That's what Ceroc does: get people on the dance floor. They learn enough to get them there.


I'm sure Jackie Chans teacher didn't teach him how to do a forward roll, and then go on to doing something similar over rotating saws or some maniac waving a sword at him... (that may be stretching an analogy a little, but I like it anyway).
{:D I like it :D}Jackie Chan learned from stage school. Primaraly accrobatics. The rotating swords and manic saws were all his own work. (mostly ;))


Additionally, it doesn't help the students if nobody is following, or at least trying to follow, the same timing in the class.??
Do you mean match what's going on on-stage, or follower's following the lead rather than watching the stage? Every class in every venue in every city in every country is different. Even if the teacher is the same. All you, as a student, can do is try and follow what they are teaching and learn what you can from your partner. The teacher is on stage teaching, your partner is acting/reacting for you - everyone else is just 'noise'. Sometimes you can glean things from people surrounding you, but I would rather learn from the teacher.


From the changes you seem to be wishing for, I don't think that you have thought it through from a "regular" punter's point of view, but as someone who is hooked and wants to learn more and and get better: you can tie in getting more from dancing with a key point in your understanding. Understandably you want to get others to this key point quicker than you did or with a better skill set to more fully appreciate it.
... well, that's my theory anyway. :respect: for the cause, but I dissagree with a lot of the logic behind the ideas.

Gadget
15th-August-2006, 10:09 PM
It had to happen - a Gadget / NZ Monkey debate... :eek:

It's a slow reader's worst nightmare, innit? :whistle:
:na: :phhhhht:

{but :yeah: to most of the other stuff}

bigdjiver
15th-August-2006, 10:17 PM
...My experience with any service on the other hand is that as the client base expands the less quality the service become...There is a difference between supply led and demand led services. If the public are desperate for plumbers the result will be worse plumbers. Ceroc sets up in empty halls in places where there are not enough dancers to fill them, and builds its own customer base. If your product is not up to scratch in those circumstances failure is pretty rapid. Once your hall is full of cerocaholics all of the jackals are looking to set up in the neighbourhood to capture some of that base. They are not going to do that by delivering worse value for money. I do not see the customer base expanding leading to a drop in quality, unless everybody is foolish enough to start a price war. We are addicts. We wil pay the price asked.

David Franklin
15th-August-2006, 10:31 PM
Well, I did try to defend my position in my last post and state categorically that this was not what I was trying to do....The problem is that I'm not sure it's something you can avoid. If you come into an established group and tell everyone "you're doing it all wrong" you won't get a favourable reception. Whether or not you're right has nothing to do with it. Now I'm not saying you can't state your case - but you may want to be careful about how you do so.

The unfortunate historical precedent is that back in "ye olde forum days", someone came back from a trip to NZ much enthused with the superiority of NZ Ceroc. And proceeded to tell everyone. Repeatedly. After about the 4th thread with a subtext of "look how much better the NZ way is", one poster's riposte was along the lines of "well why don't you p*ss off back there then?". Much fun and fireworks ensued... I would prefer to avoid a repeat.


I would also like to say that I do not see myself as shrugging off responses disagreing with me so much as responding and discussing them.You've responded to various points, but I think you've shrugged off people trying to explain the cultural and historical differences in the various UK Ceroc scenes. In particular given it's been explained that Ceroc venues hit the "1 teacher, hundreds of punters" stage over 10 years ago, your posts worrying about the imminent drop of standards when punters stop getting individual attention seem somewhat misguided.

El Salsero Gringo
15th-August-2006, 11:02 PM
It had to happen - a Gadget / NZ Monkey debate... :eek:

It's a slow reader's worst nightmare, innit? :whistle:Just think of the harm it prevents elsewhere...

El Salsero Gringo
15th-August-2006, 11:08 PM
I've heard teachers make comments in Intermediate classes along the lines of ''It doesn't matter what you do with your feet'' and ''anywhere between 7 and 12 beats is fine for this move'', which is hardly an environment for the people who want to be one of those role model dancers mentioned earlier should be learning in.I've got to pick you up on that. That sounds like two excellent pieces of advice, in the right context. Understanding that a move can be done over anything from 7 to 12 beats is a vital part of dancing musically: double time some steps, half time them, whatever you want to lead. Thumbs up from me to the teacher who said that. And as for "it doesn't matter what you do with your feet" - well, it doesn't. As long as it feels right, and you can make it look good.

NZ Monkey
16th-August-2006, 12:16 AM
Hmmmm.

Hmmmmmmmmmm......

I'm not really sure there is much more I can say right now. I certainly don't have the energy to continue in the fashion I have been. I could continue arguing semantics, but it would only cause grief and achieve little if anything.

I think it's safe to say that I have the answers to my original questions though :yum:

Thanks for the discussion though guys. I appologise if I have offended anyone or stepped on toes, and I'll see you all on the dancefloor :cheers:

straycat
16th-August-2006, 02:34 PM
I would also like to say that I do not see myself as shrugging off responses disagreing with me so much as responding and discussing them.

I don't see you doing that either. *cough* projection *cough* :whistle:
Besides - it's impossible to respond directly to every single opinion voiced on this thread (or most others). You'd spend your life at it...



I'll back off now, and will try to avoid rocking the boat. I'm probably not doing myself any favours continuing the discussion.

Keep rocking!!! We need diversity, and differing opinions are always good. At the worst case, someone vehemently disagrees with you. :really: Big deal :cool:

Twirly
16th-August-2006, 03:00 PM
I don't see you doing that either. *cough* projection *cough* :whistle:
Besides - it's impossible to respond directly to every single opinion voiced on this thread (or most others). You'd spend your life at it...



Keep rocking!!! We need diversity, and differing opinions are always good. At the worst case, someone vehemently disagrees with you. :really: Big deal :cool:


:yeah::worthy: :yeah: