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wongd
24th-April-2003, 02:05 AM
When the Taxi Dancers take the beginners through the Beginners routine, what should they do?

1. Go over the routine, parrot fashion as taught by the teacher; master all the moves so that the beginner can execute the routine flawlessly.
2. Use the time to focus on some apsect of the routine (eg, where should the ladies hands be positioned at the start, during and at the end of the first move to dissuade the forming of bad habits at a very early stage; remind blokes that it is far better to master a few, than it is to know all and then poorly execute them)
3. use the time to focus on beat/timing
4. encourage /persuade/ cajole the beginner to stay during the freestyle session to get hooked on the music/ sheer fun

In my neck of the woods (London), many beginners drop out after the first visit.

From a purely business perpective, this is a lost oppourtunity. The Question is what can CEROC INC do about retaining Beginners/ Make the experience more infectious.

One way might be to make better use of Taxi dancers, to spend more time on (2), (3) and (4) and less on (1)

Personally, I think (4) is very important (taxi dancers should lead the beginners back in to the main dance hall and dance with each one in turn to music which has a very easy to hear rhythm. eg. emma bunton -"what took you so long" sort of tempo). However, Taxi dancers are not really trained to do this.

Is the situation different in other parts of the country, if it is, is the deployment policy left to CEROC franchises and not directed by CEROC HQ....and if that is the case, then surely CEROC HQ have made a commercial mistake by not insisting on a consistent approach.

Gadget
24th-April-2003, 08:40 AM
I'm not a Taxi Dancer, but I would have thought that the primary objective of a TD would be to bolster the beginner's self-confidence; it shouldn't matter whether they follow methods 1,2,3 or 4.
And I would also assume that it would depend on what the beginner's were asking of the TD: From observation it seems that one bold couple approach and ask about a specific thing {eg. "how do you get into/out of a move?" or "am I doing this bit right?"} and others just join in.

As a beginner {a while ago now}, I danced with taxi dancers and found them to outline where I was going right, not correcting where I was going wrong - giving me encouragement to stay on and giving me tips on general dancing, not on the specific moves. Personally I can't think on a better way for the taxi-dancers to do their jobs.

TheTramp
24th-April-2003, 10:07 AM
Been thinking about this for a while now. Both from a point of view of a taxi-dancer (was one in Central London for over 2 years), and also from the PoV of being a teacher, and what I expect the taxi-dancers to do.

I'm not too sure about point 4. The first thing that always puts me off anything like this - shopping, eating out, new hobby - is the 'hard sell' approach. If I like it, I'll come back/buy it/whatever. If I don't like it, I won't. So, the taxi-dancer should be trying to make the evening as enjoyable as possible for the new person, without pushing it down their throats.

A lot of people come along to dancing without really knowing what to expect - it's not like taking up football or something similar where you have a pretty good idea about what's going to happen before you arrive. Hence, some people take to it, some don't. And if they don't, then they aren't going to stick around.

Most of the time, beginners lack confidence, and the best thing that the taxi-dancer can do, is try to give them the confidence to stay. This comes through point 1 - feeling more capable of being able to actually do some moves helps. And while they've already been through them with the teacher, being part of a class - where most people already know what they're doing - doesn't really give them a great deal of confidence. Doing the moves again, where they can ask questions, in a much more relaxed setting (unless you're cramped in a small corner of the hall while the intermediate class is going on) is a better way of giving beginners confidence that they actually can 'dance'.

I definitely agree that point 2 should be done though. Although, it's important not to overkill - people can only take in so much information at a time. Better to give a few really relevant points, than to try to give all the information in one go.

Finally (at last I hear you cry), no matter how well the taxi-dancers have done, it's no good if the beginners come back from the consolidation (or whatever you call it) class, walk into the freestyle, and immediately get fast or rhythmically challenging tracks to dance to. I would say that the freestyle between the classes, and the first 15 minutes after the intermediate class should be aimed at beginners (which also gives the less experienced intermediates a chance to work on what's just been taught in the intermediate class) - there's still plenty of decent danceable tracks that have a strong beat without being too fast that can be played then, and would hopefully encourage the beginners to stay for a little while at least. I couldn't begin to count the number of times have I heard the DJ play totally inappropriate stuff right after both classes, not giving people a chance to practise what they've been taught.

Steve

Dance Demon
24th-April-2003, 04:59 PM
I don't know how the Taxi dancer selection process works, but do they receive any kind of tuition, on how to teach? I used to teach Customer relationship skills & leadership skills to pub managers, and was sent on "train the trainer courses, to learn training techniques. Is there a similar structure for taxi dancers? I know that Ceroc prides itself on the standard of it's teacher tuition, but sureley taxi dancing is the first step on the teaching ladder. I have never been aware of any taxi dancer workshops taking place.
It doesn't neccessarily follow that a good dancer is a good teacher. It could be the case that someone who has good dancing skills, does not have particularly good interpersonal skills, and therefore would not be too clever at guiding beginners.
I also agree with Tramp on the music thing.....music played during the freestyle between classes should be of a tempo that is suitable for begginers to practice what they have just learned, without feeling intimidated.:cheers:

Aleks
24th-April-2003, 05:26 PM
I have been a taxi for only a few months. Whilst "working" I try to incorporate all 4 of the points mentioned - dependent on the "feel" of the group. The first-timers probably want to get to grips with the 4 moves they have just learnt and feel comfortable with them. Those on their 4th/5th lesson probably benefit more from emphasis on the beat (if they haven't already got it) and benefit from encouragement not to stick only to the four moves they have learned that night, but to incorporate moves they have learnt previously. I don't think there is a definitive answer to this one - it would just depend on the group you get on the night. I have even split the group into 2 and concentrated on the basics for the moves with the first timers and done something more complex with the others (adding other beginners moves to make the sequence longer), with each taxi dancer taking a group.

As far as I know there is no specific training (or at least I haven't been invited to attend any training yet). I have been told there are meetings between Ceroc staff and taxis, but have not yet attended one.

TheTramp
24th-April-2003, 05:31 PM
When I was a taxi dancer for Central London, one time , we had a taxi dancer training session, we were all given a manual, and was told that it would happen on a 6 month basis in future.

When I stopped taxi-ing about 18 months later, we'd not had another session.

I've been kinda out of it for the last year :D, so I don't know if there has been anything subsequently.

Steve

Jon
24th-April-2003, 07:17 PM
I've been a taxi dancer for awhile now and found you need to be flexible in the way you teach. Doing the routine parrot fashion like the teacher just did doesnt happen. Every class I've taught has always been a different format depending on the needs of the class. For instance some people need to be shown how to spin properly so I'd add a quick spining section in. Also the teacher on stage doesnt usually go over the finer points like bent arm no thumbs etc so I'd cover that too depending if I thought it was needed.

Of course I go over the moves that were taught and on occassion the class has got them so quickly that they've asked to learn some more. Which I'm more than happy to do.

But I'm a firm believer that it's not just the teachers that make a beginner come back its also alot to do with the taxi dancers. If the beginner is not having fun they wont be back. So I try to add jokes in to the class to help them relax while offering advice to everyone and make sure that I dance with every lady so I can offer advice if they are gripping on to tight, using thumbs etc etc.

I only know that Central London do auditions for taxi dancers but elsewhere it's the good dancers who are friendly that get chosen. After all if you can't teach the class you wont last long will you!

Emma
24th-April-2003, 08:35 PM
Hmm. Lots of really good points from everyone :) Here's my twopennorth. Including a small soapboax section you may like to skim over. :nice:

I feel that my role as a taxi dancer is to be welcoming friendly and approachable, whether or not I happen to be wearing my taxi t-shirt. I think that as a taxi dancer I should wherever possible take part in the beginners class, so I can keep chatting to people who are still beginners and encourage them to continue dancing. During freestyle if I happen to be taxi-ing I will try to dance with as many beginners as possible. I've not been taxi-ing long and have noticed that naturally this has bled over into my non-taxi time. Because some of these people are pretty good after a few weeks. I wanna dance with them ;)

I'd love to have had some form of training. But I didn't. I fall back on my teacher training and on working with other more experienced taxi dancers. It would have helped me a lot to have had some form of document that told me what I was supposed to do. (However I accept I am fairly fixated on pieces of paper telling me what to do - other people would probably be perfectly confident without one). Most of my knowledge of what is expecxted of taxi dancers comes from reading this forum. And of course from how I was treated by the taxi dancers when I started.

[begin skim]
On the subject of London Taxis a friend of mine who is already an excellent taxi dancer at Charlton was recently turned down by London on the basis that he 'didn't meet the criteria'. In other words, he hasn't seen 40 for a few years. I fail to understand how age is a criteria in choosing taxi dancers. Personally I believe that there should be a cross section broadly similar to that of the dancers at a venue. It makes me absolutely mad. But then, I'm over the magic 35 myself, so it would I suppose.
[end skim]

But yeah Des, I'm with you. A more consistent approach would be good, but please please not with a bloody age limit. Some of us wrinkling beings over the age of 35 have something to offer too.

Dan Hudson
24th-April-2003, 08:48 PM
in my opinion as an ex taxi dancer and now franchisee Taxi dancers are there to make the beginers feel that they are not left out during the intermediate class, to make them feel as though they belong, to make them want to stay longer and enjoy the music.
Going over the moves is important, but dancing with them is more so. In my experience instruction is only part of the learning curve, practice is the other part..
Dancing with beginners through the routine they have just learnt or last weeks or even moves they want to is the most effective way of getting to know them and helping them build the all important confidence.

Before the invention of the revision class, taxi dancers in Kent used to sit and chat with the new people, get to know them as well as dance with them. i have made some great friends by doing this..

I agree with points 3 and 4 I don't think its necessary to go over the routine parrot fashion as this may lead to confusion with the way the move is signalled etc..

Remeber one important thing.. How did you feel on your first night at dancing and then how would you like it tackled!
:cheers:

Happy taxiing.. Ps if any Charlton taxi dancers feel they would benefit frm a taxi workshop, let us know and we can arrange one.. Its up to you guys. personally I think you are doing a great job, excpet maybe for Jons bad jokes!!:devil: :devil: :D :cheers:

John S
25th-April-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Emma

I fail to understand how age is a criteria in choosing taxi dancers. Personally I believe that there should be a cross section broadly similar to that of the dancers at a venue............
I think that's very sensible, but by definition it's going to be difficult to forecast on any given night what age the beginners will be. Anyway I'm glad that in Scotland anyway, Franck doesn't insist on an MOT for some of us older taxis.


............Some of us wrinkling beings over the age of 35 have something to offer too.
Over 35, Emma? You haven't even BEGUN to wrinkle!

TheTramp
25th-April-2003, 07:54 AM
Yeah.

And people under 35 definitely haven't started to wrinkle either.

Although, it's only 6 months away :tears:

Steve

Stuart M
25th-April-2003, 08:27 AM
I think the only 'training' a taxi dancer needs can be summed up in 2 words: be positive!

We can all remember the first nervous time we went to a dance class. Having someone telling me not to worry/it'll come with practice/I'm still making mistakes 3 years in so why should you feel bad/ etc. was a help to me when I started.

When I taxiied, if it was a beginner's first night, I would work around all their mistakes as far as possible. When things went wrong, I'd take the blame for it. As a male taxi, this was easy enough to do - it's a male-led dance, after all. I think for female taxis the job is a lot more difficult, however...infinite patience and a durable smile required, I think. :wink:

On subsequent nights with that person, I'd only try to correct big obvious errors, and even then, referred them to the teacher in order to get the right (well, the 'official' anyway) answer.

:)

Franck
25th-April-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by wongd
When the Taxi Dancers take the beginners through the Beginners routine, what should they do? As many have pointed out so far, the primary role of the Taxi-dancer is more to do with boosting confidence / encouraging new members to keep trying and make them appreciate how much fun dancing can be...
Of course, this will involve teaching / answering questions to a certain degree, but overall, the best qualities a taxi-dancer can have is a big smile, bags of patience and a friendly attitude.

All 4 points you mention, only become relevant for people that have already danced for over a month and are already hooked to dancing, and by then, they should join workshops to pick up all the extras you quote.
As Aleks says though, each week and each beginner will be different, so you can add flexibility to the above list of qualities :wink:

With regards to training, in an ideal world, there would be more, and I have tried periodically to organize taxi training sessions, but never seem to have enough week-ends... :(
I do ask / encourage all taxi-dancers to attend the Beginners workshops as often as possible, as it is the best training they can get, as all the questions they are likely to face on the night are usually answered by the teacher then. We also have a Taxi Manual, with loads of tips, and a clear description of Taxi-dancers' duties.

When it comes to the age of taxi-dancers, I am with Emma... it does not / should not matter, as long as they have all the above qualities, then they qualify in my books. :D

Franck.

sbell
3rd-September-2003, 10:21 PM
I've just been "moaning" about the taxi dancing image too and agree with wongd. I have seen many beginners walking out of the class and never coming back. Whether due to lack of enthusiasm on some taxis part or general over awe or maybe just pure fright! I have no idea. As I said in the other forum, it might be an idea to have a form of "test" for potential taxiers to ensure they have a full idea of what and when to teach and the basic moves! I myself can remember being taught by various taxiers and none of them taught the same style. Now I realise we are all individuals and no two people will dance EXACTLY the same but the differences in the tuition was VAST and caused some problems for many beginners. I also heard a few comments about being taught the exact same moves time and time again. Surely a routine of moves could be made up that could be taught in sequence? This would ensure that everyone was taught the "16" basic moves within a certain period of time enabling them to piece together a form of dance themselves!

Since I came on this forum I think I've moaned and I apologise cos I actually enjoy dancing! I might need a bit of a kick up the bahooky to get my enthusiasm going again but I'm sure I'll bounce back!! Nice to see someone addressing the taxi training and in Scotland too- keep it up!

Chris
4th-September-2003, 09:49 PM
I remember when I taxied for Franck he supplied all taxi dancers with a 'manual' he'd written (I think several franchises have now taken up this idea). It wasn't so much as a gospel, but a text with basic info plus lots of really excellent ideas.

I've shown it to one or two other taxi-dancers who have enthused about it and said they found it very helpful, but there are areas that don't have a taxi dancer manual or handbook.

Franck - I have this as electronic format in pdf as an MS-Word document (could easily make it into pdf or html) - would you be willing for me to post it on the forum or my website (with suitable acknowledgements and any covering note you think advisable) as a source of inspiration/help to new taxi-dancers or new franchisees?

Chris

Jon
4th-September-2003, 11:17 PM
I would agree with you sbell that alot of beginners do walk out never to be seen before. Prehaps that is due to the taxi dancers, maybe the teachers, the music or prehaps they just simply didn't like ceroc. I guess we will never no the reason.

I also agree with you in that the standard of taxi dancer teaching is very wide. I've seen some very good ones and some bad ones. In fact I've seen some taxi dancers teach better than some of the teachers. However we do all have off nights so please consider this.

A taxi dancer does taxiing because they want to help others learn and because they find it fun to do this, there is no financial reward other than free entry to the venue. Unlike the teachers & Dj's who do get paid. Also a taxi dancer has to spend most of the evening concentrating on beginners where a teacher teaches 2 lessons and then is free to do whatever they like. Some teachers even disappear after the intermediate class. Some taxi dancers probably do taxiing purely for the free entry but I'd like to think most of us are doing it because we want to help people.

I agree we do need to ensure the standard of teaching is high and some form of taxi dancer training maybe of benefit but I would disapprove of a course & exam like the ones the teachers have to go through.

As for teaching routines, firstly there are a core 22 moves which I believe is soon to be extended to 23. Secondly Ceroc is not about learning routines its about learning moves and how to link them together.

But how do you decide who should be a taxi dancer? I bet if you look at your venue and then think about who the friendly approachable, people are who are also good dancers, who are regulars to the venue and would be willing to be taxi dancers then ask yourself can I find 6 people like this then you may find yourself quite limited for choice. If you start adding exams or tests then more people probably wouldn't want to be taxi dancers. My opinion is if a taxi dancer is no good then you can always replace him/her.

I've heard beginners saying they thought that in taxi class they would learn more moves not recap what they had done but we can't please everyone. If the whole class manages the recap quickly then I do ask if they'd like to learn more moves even done some intermediate moves before as they asked for them but it only takes 1 person not to be able to do the revision to prevent this so our job isn't easy can be quite stressfull but can also be rewarding.

Dreadful Scathe
5th-September-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Jon
I would agree with you sbell that alot of beginners do walk out never to be seen before.

again even ! :) The reasons will be different for everyone, Ceroc can only try its best to be as appealing to the majority of new comers as possible.


Some taxi dancers probably do taxiing purely for the free entry

i really doubt that to be honest, even the poor students among them must get something else out of it.



I agree we do need to ensure the standard of teaching is high and some form of taxi dancer training maybe of benefit but I would disapprove of a course & exam like the ones the teachers have to go through.

Me too - i think there would suddenly be a shortage of taxi dancers if it was tried, unless Ceroc offered them some other incentive; after all, taxi dancers probably have a good feeling about helping beginners enjoy dance as much as they do, that would soon be overridden by 'who do they think they are' attitude if Ceroc tried force training on them (although the objections would probably come down to the loss of free time purely for the benefit and Profit of Ceroc...'hey we're volunteers and you're making money from us' they'd cry). Hey, maybe Im wrong - would depend on the training and the exam and wether it was compulsory or not wouldn't it ?



I've heard beginners saying they thought that in taxi class they would learn more moves not recap what they had done.

really ? i thought that was always made clear...if they want more moves and are capable of doing them right, they should be in the intermediate class anyway ? :)



If the whole class manages the recap quickly then I do ask if they'd like to learn more moves even done some intermediate moves before as they asked for them but it only takes 1 person not to be able to do the revision to prevent this so our job isn't easy can be quite stressfull but can also be rewarding.

As a teacher* myself (though not of dance :) ) i would hesitate to go over too many new things when its quite likely it'll make the students brains overload - regardless of wether they pretend they know it all - theyre only lying to appear knowledgeable in front of their peers :D :).


*Im not even a real teacher anyway, i just spout IT stuff now and again - 'lecturer' is less offensive to REAL teachers I find ;)

Graham
5th-September-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

Originally posted by Jon
I agree we do need to ensure the standard of teaching is high and some form of taxi dancer training maybe of benefit but I would disapprove of a course & exam like the ones the teachers have to go through.
Me too - i think there would suddenly be a shortage of taxi dancers if it was tried, unless Ceroc offered them some other incentive; after all, taxi dancers probably have a good feeling about helping beginners enjoy dance as much as they do, that would soon be overridden by 'who do they think they are' attitude if Ceroc tried force training on them (although the objections would probably come down to the loss of free time purely for the benefit and Profit of Ceroc...'hey we're volunteers and you're making money from us' they'd cry). Hey, maybe Im wrong - would depend on the training and the exam and wether it was compulsory or not wouldn't it ? I think training and even assessment of taxi dancers could be performed in a different, and more relaxed, way from the CTA training. I do think it would be good to have training for taxis so that there was more consistency in what they were trying to do, even if this is just within one venue/city - it must be very confusing for beginners if they get different messages from different people in their first couple of weeks. I would have thought that coaching could be used (the taxi trainer, whoever that is, observes what the taxi is doing and offers tips for improvement).

Will
5th-September-2003, 06:04 PM
Well I think the Taxi dancers that I've come across have always done a first class job.

It is with that in mind that I would propose that their roles should be extended and area's of responsibility increased.

Indeed, it would be nice if when I'm at a venue and cookingly hot. That a Taxi dancer would go to the bar and buy me a drink, then return and mop my brow with a cool dry towel. That a taxi dancer may bring me a bowl of fruit, peel me some grapes and pop them into my mouth, whilst another fans me with an enormous ostrich feather....

I know my free consultancy on this subject will be appreciated.

I thankyou,

Will.

Tiggerbabe
5th-September-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Will
It is with that in mind that I would propose that their roles should be extended and area's of responsibility increased.


Well I could definitely bring you a scarf lest you forgot one :blush: but what should I do if your sword goes all wobbly :wink: *swoon*

sbell
5th-September-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Will
Indeed, it would be nice if when I'm at a venue and cookingly hot. That a Taxi dancer would go to the bar and buy me a drink, then return and mop my brow with a cool dry towel. That a taxi dancer may bring me a bowl of fruit, peel me some grapes and pop them into my mouth, whilst another fans me with an enormous ostrich feather....

I think the taxi dancers do as good a job as they can too. And I agree that there are some very good - and some not quite so good!
And as for the above!!!!! Would that we could have that in life never mind in dancing!!!!

Grant
9th-September-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Sheena
what should I do if your sword goes all wobbly :wink: *swoon*
well that explains why linda calls herself the quiet one :wink:

Grant

Dave Hancock
9th-September-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I think training and even assessment of taxi dancers could be performed in a different, and more relaxed, way from the CTA training. I do think it would be good to have training for taxis so that there was more consistency in what they were trying to do, even if this is just within one venue/city

Agree with you on this G, although Franck has certainly organised one day to train taxi dancers in the past and it was an awfully good morning with all that attended gaining an insight into what was expected of us. Have also seen the manual which Chris talks off although not for a number of years but my memory was that it had a lot of very good tips, some of which were obvious although just to see them spelled out helped to re-inforce your own thoughts.

At the risk of getting flamed if Franck was to organise such a taxi-workshop then I'd suggest he does it in Glasgow where IMHO and with a couple of exceptions the standard of taxi-dancer isn't as high as the rest of Scotland. Certain of the taxi dancers just sit together and talk to each other the whole night and with the exception of taking the beginners out for a quick re-cap do very little of what they are supposed to do. I also feel that the time-keeping is pretty poor of these individuals as they are regularly not there for the doors opening which is when you get many of the beginners arriving and as a taxi this gives you a chance to both identify new people and also to try and be a bit welcoming to them. (Would like to add that you would not be included in my list of bad Glasgow taxi dancers before you go on the defensive :) )

Franck
9th-September-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Agree with you on this G, although Franck has certainly organised one day to train taxi dancers in the past and it was an awfully good morning with all that attended gaining an insight into what was expected of us. Yes, I agree and I would love to organize further training days for Taxi-dancers, they are great and make a huge difference. The main problem is time, for myself and to get everyone together... So many week-end events already!
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Have also seen the manual which Chris talks off although not for a number of yearsThe manual is still about, though not in a printed format. It is available online and all new Taxi-dancers have (should have) access at any time. It is a great summary of the role of taxi-dancers.
if Franck was to organise such a taxi-workshop then I'd suggest he does it in GlasgowGlasgow is due a Taxi traning day, as the last one was in Aberdeen, and Glasgow hasn't had any for ages! :nice:
I do not recognize the picture you painted of Taxi-dancers in Glasgow though, but will monitor it!

Franck.

Dave Hancock
9th-September-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Yes, I agree and I would love to organize further training days for Taxi-dancers, they are great and make a huge difference. The main problem is time, for myself and to get everyone together... So many week-end events already!

Well if you'd stop qualifying for finals and organising fabby weekends with wonderful guest teachers...:wink:

Grant
10th-September-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
I'd suggest he does it in Glasgow where IMHO and with a couple of exceptions the standard of taxi-dancer isn't as high as the rest of Scotland.
so you want to pick a fight...

(Would like to add that you would not be included in my list of bad Glasgow taxi dancers before you go on the defensive :) )
but not with graham :D

Well if you'd stop...organising fabby weekends with wonderful guest teachers
don't listen to him franck, we want the fabby weekends. :nice:
aussie weekend in a couple of days :yum:

grant
(not a glasgow taxi dancer!)

Graham
10th-September-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Franck

I do not recognize the picture you painted of Taxi-dancers in Glasgow though, but will monitor it! I don't think Dave is alone in this view Franck.

Chris
10th-September-2003, 11:30 AM
Just a quick word on this before any taxi taxi dancer (who is probably unknown to me) takes criticism, which is probably not meant.

Firstly, I think one of the reasons Ceroc has perhaps become so successful is maybe cos it uses (what business management consultants call) positive affirmation - we get results in Ceroc by commenting on the things people are doing right (and hoping that related bad things will go away of their own accord, which often they do). This goes for taxi dancers as well.

Secondly, taxi dancing is a learning curve IMO. People start taxiing and all sorts of things can go wrong, even with the best candidates. Sometimes people think that cos they're asked to taxi they must have reached a certain level, or their ideas are special, or they're better than other dancers of similar ability; they sometimes want to teach beginners everything they know, or lord it over people, or just use it as an excuse to skive off and get in free. Mostly these problems - if they happen at all, and mostly they don't - but mostly they go away of their own accord and with encouragement and more help from the franchisee or other staff members. Occasionally they become a pain!

I'm not up to date with what's happening in Glasgow but sympathise with the posts so far (inc Franck) - just wanted to add a note to say taxi dancers are human too and they won't always get it right!

:hug:

Dave Hancock
10th-September-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Chris

I'm not up to date with what's happening in Glasgow but sympathise with the posts so far (inc Franck) - just wanted to add a note to say taxi dancers are human too and they won't always get it right!


Agree with most of what you say Chris, although wanted to add that there isn't a major problem with Glasgow taxi dancers. Just IMHO they are not of the same standard as Aberdeen/Dundee. I believe this is partly due to the fact that I believe the standard of taxi dancers, both in dance ability and general attitude to be extremely high in both of these cities.

michael
10th-September-2003, 01:13 PM
Well Dave i guess you will not be flavour of the month (or this evening for that matter)with some people or more precisely a few taxi dancers. Noticed two Taxi dancers in particular that i always see making an effort (and i dont stop dancing to observe much) so the problem is not large and will probably disappear as Franck will no doubt observe.

There may be other reasons why you feel the standard is not as good as Aberdeen/Dundee. Like dance mad Taxis who just love dancing. Would be interested in how you find Edinburgh on Thursdays where i feel the standard is currently very high indeed

In marcos they have a seperate area for beginners to practice for the rest of the night which is a big advantage. They also have a male teacher which makes it easier to describe the moves compared to a female who i would imagine is always having to think from a male point of view. The microphone system is also much clearer. One wee point that was noticeable recently was that when Brady does the moves they seem to be done quickly, the move just flows over so damn smoothly that you dont (i dont)see the move as detailed. It is hard to describe but great dancer he is no doubt but from someone wanting to pick up the EXACT manner in how it is done as well as remembering the damn move itself i find it quite difficult to follow. I only noticed this when the DJ stood in one night and his movements and style were so precise and deliberate that it just looked easier to follow.

Must promise to stop posting and boring forum with dribble but thought it might help so i mentioned it.... Leave all alone for a while....but not tooooo long

Dave Hancock
10th-September-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by michael
Well Dave i guess you will not be flavour of the month (or this evening for that matter)with some people or more precisely a few taxi dancers. Noticed two Taxi dancers in particular that i always see making an effort (and i dont stop dancing to observe much) so the problem is not large and will probably disappear as Franck will no doubt observe.



As I have already said previously in this thread there are some exceptions to the rule and I believe that Glasgow has one or two very good taxi dancers, although as a whole the standard is again in my opinion not as good as other venues and it was interesting that the likes of Graham (a Glasgow taxi dancer himself agreed with this point).

Have discussed this also with several of the more experienced Glasgow dancers face to face and they also agree.

Personally I don't see this as a problem as you call it, although it again is my opinion that without a little guidance the standard of taxi dancing in Glasgow shall not improve on it's own and it shall stay at the same level for the forseeable future.

As regards being flavour of the month with taxi dancers, I would hope that they shall not take the huff just for viewing an opinion which is what the forum is for. I may even be lucky enough to get a dance with one or two of them, although I shall wait till after ten to ten when they come 'off duty' in order to ask them, which is yet another thing which many of the Glasgow taxi dancers don't seem to adhere to.

Grant
10th-September-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by michael
There may be other reasons why you feel the standard is not as good as Aberdeen/Dundee.
could be that the commitment of the aberdeen/dundee crowd is higher...
nobody could be more committed than the dundee mad crew :waycool:

grant

Graham
10th-September-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Grant

nobody could be more committed than the dundee mad crew :waycool:
Certainly nobody ought to be committed more than the MAd crew.................:wink:

Grant
10th-September-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Certainly nobody ought to be committed more than the MAd crew.................:wink:
usual rates for setting these lines up for you graham?:wink:

grant

bigdjiver
10th-September-2003, 03:02 PM
I saw a common scenario again last class. A young couple turned up for the first time. The lady was obviously fun loving, extrovert and seemed instantly right at home. She was also young and pretty, and there was no shortage of people willing to show her the ropes. The taxi dancers were all female, but despite this the guy was sitting there alone for most of the time, glowering jealously. They left early. Previous experience is that they will be unlikely to come back, whilst they are together. The female taxi dancers were busy, doing the lead with other females, but I felt that they should have been concentrating on the guy.

Is it important to spend more time on male beginners?

Tiggerbabe
10th-September-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
She was also young and pretty, and there was no shortage of people willing to show her the ropes.

By "people" I'm guessing you mean men? Unfortunately, it's always the case that on a "follower's" first night she can be led by almost any of the "leaders" who are there. From someone who can only lead maybe 4 or 5 moves to the most experienced man in the room. :yum:



The taxi dancers were all female, but despite this the guy was sitting there alone for most of the time, glowering jealously. They left early. Previous experience is that they will be unlikely to come back, whilst they are together. The female taxi dancers were busy, doing the lead with other females, but I felt that they should have been concentrating on the guy.

Is it important to spend more time on male beginners?

Mmmmn, not good :sad: It's very difficult if you have more lady beginners one night than men - as you have to try and spend an equal amount of time with everyone when doing the refresher class. Why should the ladies who were on their first night get less attention than the guy?
However, I would always try to make sure that when it came to freestyle that the gentleman in question was dancing equally as often as his partner.
The biggest problem I have found with new men is that often they will not dance during the freestyle session (and even my powers of persuasion have occasionally been put to the test :innocent: ). As taxi dancers (and this is where the more experienced dancers can help too ) we have to try and boost their confidence so that they feel they can give people a great dance - even if they are beginners.

Hopefully they will be back - and it often is the case if the girl is really keen that the bloke will keep coming just to keep her happy/quiet :wink: - and after 5 or 6 weeks he starts to really enjoy himself.................4 months down the line he's hooked, popular and she's getting fed up having to book a dance with him 2 weeks in advance :waycool:

bigdjiver
11th-September-2003, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Sheena
By "people" I'm guessing you mean men?

No, by people I meant people. Women are people too. ;) All but one of the taxi dancers were female.

Your theory that he may have refused offers may be valid.

Part of my thinking was that if more help was given to the men, then they would be able to help the beginner ladies all the sooner.

Gadget
11th-September-2003, 08:37 AM
I think I know what you're getting at: A beginner lady can dance with almost any man of any ability and still have a good dance. A beginner man if dancing with a beginner lady will lack the confidence and lead skills to controll{guide} the dance.
However I'm not sure that monopolising the taxi dancer's time is the way to resolve the issue; perhaps leading them fairly strongly through a couple of moves would show them what it should 'feel' like for the lady? Or would that put them off?
{never managed this 'follow' lark myself :sick:, but I assume that I'm a decent enough lead :rolleyes:}

Chicklet
11th-September-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
I believe that Glasgow has one or two very good taxi dancers, .

Have to say that last night's on-duty boy taxi was most industrious and smiled :rofl: at lots and lots of beginners, even while dancing with them def. a credit to the organisation....now if we could only do something about the violent tendancies of the OFF duty ones, we might have a nice night:eek: :mad: :innocent:

Grant
11th-September-2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
{never managed this 'follow' lark myself :sick:, but I assume that I'm a decent enough lead :rolleyes:}
wasn't it prof sumner-millar ( i know graham will correct me if i have the name wrong) who said
"never assume cos if you assume you make an ass out of u and me" :D
you could always ask someone who will give an honest opinion - fc springs to mind :nice:
one day i might even be brave enough to ask her myself :D

grant

Dave Hancock
11th-September-2003, 09:27 AM
Thought last night's taxi dancers were both okay, although both of their time-keeping skills were indifferent with neither being there for the doors opening with the fist arriving after 30 or 40 other folk had with the other pitching up after 3 moves of the beginners class and not having a clue who were new and who weren't.

I would admit that they both did a fair job when they were there with the boy making the effort to take some of the beginners out of the hall and to the side to go through all that had been taught.

Grant
11th-September-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Chicklet
now if we could only do something about the violent tendancies of the OFF duty ones, we might have a nice night:eek: :mad: :innocent:
you didn't look too badly bruised at the end of the night
probably lucky that more of them didn't turn up :wink:

grant

Gadget
11th-September-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Grant
you could always ask someone who will give an honest opinion
Now why would I want to spoil my illusions of grandure? :D

Grant
11th-September-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Now why would I want to spoil my illusions of grandure? :D
i take it you won't want graham or heather correcting your spelling either then? :D

grant

Gadget
11th-September-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Grant
i take it you won't want graham or heather correcting your spelling either then?
Just because the dictionary miss-spell's words, dosn't mean I have to ... :wink:

Grant
11th-September-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Just because the dictionary miss-spell's words, dosn't mean I have to ... :wink:
well don't stop there gadget, write your own dictionary :D
better still start your own religion, it worked for Ron L Hubbard :wink:

grant

Dreadful Scathe
15th-September-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Grant
well don't stop there gadget, write your own dictionary :D
better still start your own religion, it worked for Ron L Hubbard :wink:


indeed. The man was a disturbed genius - hes been dead for years but was convinced he'd come back - hes got a fortune waiting for him and thousands of disciples some very, very rich :).

Taxi dancers have a specific enough place in the world that they could easily start a religion or at least start off with a minor cult :).
From now on refer to Taxi dancers as "The Priests of Ceroc" or alternatively just "The Brethren". :D

Graham
15th-September-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Taxi dancers have a specific enough place in the world that they could easily start a religion or at least start off with a minor cult :).
From now on refer to Taxi dancers as "The Priests of Ceroc" or alternatively just "The Brethren". :D Wouldn't the teachers fit the "priest" role better? I think we're more altar boys/girls. :grin:
Isn't "The Brethren" a bit sexist? What about girl taxis? :really:

Aleks
15th-September-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Graham
What about girl taxis?

The coven?

Neil
15th-September-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Wouldn't the teachers fit the "priest" role better? I think we're more altar boys/girls. Quite right. And franchisees are the bishops, and Mike Ellard is the new Pope.

Neil

DavidB
15th-September-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Neil
and Mike Ellard is the new Pope. So that explains the white smoke machine at the Casbah

Graham
15th-September-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
The coven? :rofl: How appropriate.............

John S
15th-September-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Graham

Isn't "The Brethren" a bit sexist? What about girl taxis? :really:

"The Sistern"? (flushed with pride, no doubt)

(OK, OK, Heather, I do know the correct spelling!!)

tubby
16th-October-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Dave Hancock
As I have already said previously in this thread there are some exceptions to the rule and I believe that Glasgow has one or two very good taxi dancers, although as a whole the standard is again in my opinion not as good as other venues and it was interesting that the likes of Graham (a Glasgow taxi dancer himself agreed with this point).

Have discussed this also with several of the more experienced Glasgow dancers face to face and they also agree.

As regards being flavour of the month with taxi dancers, I would hope that they shall not take the huff just for viewing an opinion which is what the forum is for. I may even be lucky enough to get a dance with one or two of them, although I shall wait till after ten to ten when they come 'off duty' in order to ask them, which is yet another thing which many of the Glasgow taxi dancers don't seem to adhere to.


Ouch! Huff?! No more like "let me just go into a corner and make me miserable :0(" I have just finished my stint as a taxi dancer which I have enjoyed and I should add, carried out because I love dancing and get a kick out of seeing a newbie become a fully fledged happy cerocer. I'm not the greatest of dancers, life away from Ceroc is busy (yup the day job!) so I don't get to many additional classes and I have never received any additional dance training for TDs. Turning up late can be down to rushing back from the job or having travelled at speed from the other side of the country! If newbies come in they are pointed out to us all. When the hall is empty at the beginning, many look extremely uncomfortable if aproached - I personnally suss them out first before approaching - I do remember what it was like being new to it all!


But .... I have to stress... so far I've not had anyone say to me that I was so bad that I should rethink my role as TD. I've received many positive comments from folk who have relied on my patience, cheery humour and ability to boost their confidence to help them on their way. You know, it's a shame that there are such strong feelings against what seems to be most of the Glasgow taxi dancers. I heard about these posts through other dancers - I don't always have time to read what is going on. It saddens me that we have to find out these comments through posts and not through constructive chats with the dancers who obviously feel so strongly about it. I look upon Ceroc as a big community (and not just online).

As for TDs sitting around chatting, there are many newbies who like to have sit down and a breather for a while and politely say no when asked if they would like to dance. We do ask them!!! if the evening is quiet and no newbies need us we tend to stick to the "dont dance with any intermediates" till 9.45. There are occasions when, if it is acceptable, we will get up and dance (always checking to make sure no one is waiting). So there... that's my bits worth.

I told many of the regulars and newbies that last week was my last stint at TD. I turned up this week (Wed) and received many "oh good we get to dance again then". I may be crap but I still get em goin! !! I fully intend to carry on dancing for the next couple of months or until my impending arrival allows me! So Dave, fancy a dance then? Take it easy though ... :0)

Dreadful Scathe
16th-October-2003, 10:59 AM
I danced with a taxi dancer, and they kept their meter running when i popped to the bathroom :mad:

is it customary to tip ?

tubby
16th-October-2003, 11:58 AM
Nice :D

Tazmanian Devil
16th-October-2003, 01:08 PM
I taxi at Greenwich with thewaco I have only been taxi officially for a few weeks. Although used to help out now and again at welling.

I have found that the beginners are so tense but with plenty of smiles and having a good laugh with them as well as teaching them the beginners moves they soon start to relax and enjoy themselves. Oh and thewaco does some fantastis personal hygine talks!!:rofl: :rofl:

As we always say at the beginning of our taxi class,

rule no1 ceroc is fun :hug: :kiss: :cheers:

tubby
16th-October-2003, 01:13 PM
thewaco

What's this?

Tazmanian Devil
16th-October-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by tubby
thewaco

What's this?

He is my taxi partner who goes by the name thewaco on this forum:wink: Sorry I wasn't very clear in my message:blush:


Rule no1 ceroc is fun

thewacko
16th-October-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil


As we always say at the beginning of our taxi class,

rule no1 ceroc is fun

:tears: Oy thats my line :wink:

I have taxied at Charlton and now also at Greenwich, and find that the "punters" in most cases need putting at ease, especially the very new ones.

I always start the session by telling them that they are not going to get an intense class like they have just had with the teacher, and here is where my line comes from:D "Rule no. 1 Ceroc is Fun".

I will try and have a laugh with them whilst guiding them, wherever possible, but it is up to the individual taxi dancer to help the student dancers the way they feel fit, as each session can be completely different dependant on how new the dancers are and what sort of people they are:what: . . . am I rambling or what!

Taxi lessons! are they a myth:wink: that would probably be a good idea, but not from Ceroc HQ - that would be too formal, but a ceroc taxi workshop from the venue which would keep it informal, after all we taxi dancers are not teachers but elder brothers ( :wink: especially big bro who got knocked back by london ceroc:rofl: :wink: ) and sisters or friends of the beginners.

thewacko
16th-October-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Chris
[B

Secondly, taxi dancing is a learning curve IMO. People start taxiing and all sorts of things can go wrong, even with the best candidates. Sometimes people think that cos they're asked to taxi they must have reached a certain level, or their ideas are special, or they're better than other dancers of similar ability; they sometimes want to teach beginners everything they know, or lord it over people, or just use it as an excuse to skive off and get in free. Mostly these problems - if they happen at all, and mostly they don't - but mostly they go away of their own accord and with encouragement and more help from the franchisee or other staff members. Occasionally they become a pain!
[/B]

as well as taxiing! with taz, another lady I taxi with freely admits that she is not the best dancer in the world (but I have to say she is much better than she realises) but she does know all the beginners moves, which is the main reason she is a taxi dancer.

:wink: phew I thought i was going to have to go back to the smoking debate as everyone here seems to agree with each other:wink:

Tazmanian Devil
16th-October-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
:I have taxied at Charlton and now also at Greenwich, and find that the "punters" in most cases need putting at ease, especially the very new ones.

I always start the session by telling them that they are not going to get an intense class like they have just had with the teacher, and here is where my line comes from:"Rule no. 1 Ceroc is Fun".

I will try and have a laugh with them whilst guiding them, wherever possible, but it is up to the individual taxi dancer to help the student dancers the way they feel fit, as each session can be completely different dependant on how new the dancers are and what sort of people they are:what: . . . am I rambling or what!

naa not yet you aint had a drink yet!!!:rofl: :rofl: :hug: :kiss:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thewacko
:after all we taxi dancers are not teachers but elder brothers ( :wink: especially big bro who got knocked back by london ceroc:rofl: :wink: ).

Bless him I think that was age discrimination myself but thats an other thread all together!!:kiss: :hug:

thewacko
16th-October-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Bless him I think that was age discrimination myself but thats an other thread all together!!:kiss: :hug:

:wink: but as he is my elder bro, and god knows I'm old enough as it is, I am surely allowed to be agist :what: is that a word!

:mad: i dont want next monday to come:tears: i'm only 18:blush:

Tazmanian Devil
16th-October-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I think I know what you're getting at: A beginner lady can dance with almost any man of any ability and still have a good dance.

Im sorry :blush: I must disagree with you there some beginner ladys are just so tense it don't matter how well you lead they still don't go/do what you wanted them to do!! Although it doesn't really matter cause if the man is a good enough lead he can still make it look good.:wink:

I have been dancing for about 2 years now and being as I picked it up quite easily i have been doing the mens moves as well for just over a year. A lot of women ask me for a dance as they like the way I lead. I am very confident but still can't seem to get one or two in particular beginner ladys to just relax their arms at least!!:cheers:

thewacko
16th-October-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Im sorry :blush: I must disagree with you there some beginner ladys are just so tense it don't matter how well you lead they still don't go/do what you wanted them to do!! Although it doesn't really matter cause if the man is a good enough lead he can still make it look good


having danced with Taz i must agree :wink:
no caps in this reply does that mean i am whispering:what:

Gadget
16th-October-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Im sorry :blush: I must disagree with you there
Why are you sorry? this would be an awfly boring forum if we all agreed :wink: :devil:

some beginner ladys are just so tense it don't matter how well you lead they still don't go/do what you wanted them to do!! ~snip~ I am very confident but still can't seem to get one or two in particular beginner ladys to just relax their arms at least!!:cheers:
I admit that I have had a couple of beginner ladys that are more difficult to lead (stiff arms, spagetti arms and roots included), but I'm sure that if you ask them after your dance if they have enjoyed it, I'm 99% convinced that they will say yes; it may not have been a "good" dance for you, but it will have been for them.

I still stand by my statement that A beginner lady can dance with almost any man of any ability and still have a good dance.

thewacko
16th-October-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Gadget


I admit that I have had a couple of beginner ladys that are more difficult to lead (stiff arms, spagetti arms and roots included), but I'm sure that if you ask them after your dance if they have enjoyed it, I'm 99% convinced that they will say yes; it may not have been a "good" dance for you, but it will have been for them.
[/B]

:) i agree with you here, sometimes it is murder dancing with a new lady who doesn't know what they or you are doing, they can spin off in all directions (if they can spin) or are like dancing with brick walls who hardly move - BUT - the looks on their faces when they have finished is magical, I may not have enjoyed the dance as much as when I dance with a more experienced lady, but the gratification I get when i see how much the beginner lady has enjoyed the dance can much more than make up for it:D
so a difficult dance but a magical ending:nice:

Graham
16th-October-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I still stand by my statement that A beginner lady can dance with almost any man of any ability and still have a good dance. I completely disagree. Regardless of the quality of the lead there are myriad reasons why a beginner follower might not enjoy the dance - he might be too snooty, too smelly, too sleazy, and as Taz said she may just be too tense to really enjoy it no matter what he does.

And purely on dance ability, when I watch a beginner lady dancing with a man who can't lead well, she generally doesn't look as if it's the best thing that's ever happened to her.

thewacko
16th-October-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I completely disagree. Regardless of the quality of the lead there are myriad reasons why a beginner follower might not enjoy the dance - he might be too snooty, too smelly, too sleazy, and as Taz said she may just be too tense to really enjoy it no matter what he does.

And purely on dance ability, when I watch a beginner lady dancing with a man who can't lead well, she generally don't look as if it's the best thing that's ever happened to her.

:sad: i begining to wonder about me know all I seem to do is agree with everyone on this thread:sad:

I beleive I was thinking of a beginner lady dancing with a more experienced dancer and enjoying the dance, any lady dancer may not enjoy dancing with a beginner man, due to his lack of experience and not being able to lead:sad: but hey give the guys a break we all were at that stage once and the magical part of ceroc was learning to dance with all classes of lady, from beginner to experienced:grin:

remembering back to when I first started, i mainly danced with beginners as i got to know them in the taxi classes and part of the learning element was learning together :cheers:

Tazmanian Devil
16th-October-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
having danced with Taz i must agree :wink:


Whats that supposed to mean?????:confused:

Tazmanian Devil
16th-October-2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I completely disagree. Regardless of the quality of the lead there are myriad reasons why a beginner follower might not enjoy the dance - he might be too snooty, too smelly, too sleazy, and as Taz said she may just be too tense to really enjoy it no matter what he does.

And purely on dance ability, when I watch a beginner lady dancing with a man who can't lead well, she generally doesn't look as if it's the best thing that's ever happened to her.

I have to agree with you there Graham. I know a few men who have been dancing as long or even longer than me and they are terrible leads. I don't enjoy dancing with them let alone the poor beginners that get their arms pulled out of their sockets!!:kiss:

Gadget
17th-October-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by Graham
I completely disagree. Regardless of the quality of the lead there are myriad reasons why a beginner follower might not enjoy the dance...
I think that you were reading it incorrectly; the statement was derived from prior discussion where it was stated that a beginner lady must dance with a more advanced lead before she could have a "good" dance.
{Also note the escape clauses :wink:}
A beginner lady can dance with almost any man of any ability and still have a good dance.

On another point; "quality of lead" is not all that makes a good dance - music, timing, connection, style, ... all have roles to play and are all part of the dancer's ability. A good lead is just the ability to guide the lady where you want them - not necissaraly where they would like to be or how they would prefer to get there.

On Taz's point; I think that a bad lead could be worse for their partner than a bad follower.

{NOTE: by "Bad" I don't mean inexperianced or a beginner - I mean someone who is unwilling to learn or change the way they dance through a song.}

Graham
17th-October-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
I think that you were reading it incorrectly; the statement was derived from prior discussion where it was stated that a beginner lady must dance with a more advanced lead before she could have a "good" dance. No, I think you were writing it incorrectly. The way it is stated suggests that a beginner lady can enjoy a good dance with the vast majority of men ("almost any man of any ability"), and I simply don't think this is true. The point you then go on to defend is that a beginner lady might enjoy a good dance with someone of limited experience - this is certainly possible, but so what? On average she is going to get a better dance with a better dancer, and what's more a good lead will give her much more confidence in her own dancing ability.

I'd be interested in a female view, but my impression is that for a beginner, musicality and style are not as important as the lead, simply because they are concentrating a lot on their following. In my opinion, they are really better enjoyed once you're reasonably comfortable with the basics (which isn't to say that the beginners can't see/appreciate musicality and style, just that it's probably not the most important thing).

Forte
17th-October-2003, 10:48 AM
I agree with Graham...a brilliant male dancer does not always make a good lead for an intermediate female...A good lead is strong and safe and will attempt new things (for the lady) but in a way that is smooth and encouraging. Too many daring moves just makes the woman feel inadequate and clumsy. A really good dancer who wants to be a good lead will actually hold himslef back a little for a less able female dancer and concentrate on making her feel good and have fun. She will come off the floor feeling she danced well but danced MORE than she has before , too. :nice:

bigdjiver
17th-October-2003, 11:36 AM
I have seen couples come to their first evening together, miss the lesson, or sit it out, and then try and do their own thing. Regardless of any outsiders view of lack of quality in their "dance" they usually enjoy themselves immensely.

Graham
17th-October-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
I have seen couples come to their first evening together, miss the lesson, or sit it out, and then try and do their own thing. Regardless of any outsiders view of lack of quality in their "dance" they usually enjoy themselves immensely. My experience is somewhat different - most people I've seen doing this have looked frustrated and confused. In fact the only people I can remember having seen getting immense enjoyment were people who were having a great time laughing at each other's mistakes! But I'm not sure that really counts as "enjoying a great dance"!

Forte
17th-October-2003, 11:57 AM
I have a friend who appeared in the Glasgow class this week out of the blue. He is a complete beginner to ceroc. he took part in the beginners class and then duriing the freestyle the taxi dancer gave him a few dances. I then sat out the intermediate class and went over the four moves over and over again with him ..then in freestyle the taxi dancer and the teacher gave him a few dances. By the end of the night he was really moving with the music. It was fab to see...but he got a lot of attention and I think beginners need that. He'll be back I am sure...I don't think taxi dancers should ever underestimate the impact they can make...:nice:

thewacko
17th-October-2003, 12:11 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bigdjiver
I have seen couples come to their first evening together, miss the lesson, or sit it out, and then try and do their own thing. Regardless of any outsiders view of lack of quality in their "dance" they usually enjoy themselves immensely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In my experience, it tends to be single people who tend to come and watch rather than join in, simply because they need to pluck up enough courage to join in. Any couples who come tend to join in simply because they can join the class, but stand back without changing partners if need be [:sad: this practice is not recommended:wink: ] and then they tend to struggle a bit because they didn't join the line up and neither of them have got the moves



:cheers:

Gadget
17th-October-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Graham
The way it is stated suggests that a beginner lady can enjoy a good dance with the vast majority of men ("almost any man of any ability"), and I simply don't think this is true.
If this is a falicy, then it would suggest that the majority of dances a lady has are not very good. I find it hard to believe that ladies would return week after week if most of their dances were poor:
Is one "good" dance a night sufficient to come back for?

On average she {beginner lady} is going to get a better dance with a better dancer, and what's more a good lead will give her much more confidence in her own dancing ability.
True, but this is not limited to beginners - anyone who dances with a better dancer will normally get a better dance {assuming you don't clash}. But this does not mean that you cannot get a good dance with someone of lesser ability.

for a beginner, musicality and style are not as important as the lead, simply because they are concentrating a lot on their following.
Not for the beginner follower, no. But they are skills that can help define the ability of the lead and make the lead smoother for the follower - the smoother the lead, the less they have to concentrate, the more relaxed they become, the easier following becomes and they enjoy the music/dance more.

Forte: If a lead does 101 daring, complicated and flashey moves with a beginner, then they are not a brilliant dancer; no matter what their ego says.
These people have forgotten one thing - it's a partner dance; you dance with your partner, not at them or using them {*}. Dancing should be fun - first and foremost. A little bit of challenge and excitement to inspire, but not at the expense of the "fun" bit.

{*} - unless they ask nicely :D

Graham
17th-October-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
[musicality and style] are skills that can help define the ability of the lead and make the lead smoother for the follower Not in my opinion. I believe that good leading is what makes the lead smoother. It's possible to lead smoothly without any great level of musical interpretation or interesting style, and it's also possible to have bags of musicality and style and be a poor lead.

Just to be clear, when I've been referring to musicality I haven't meant simply keeping to the beat - obviously not doing so is unlikely to result in a "good" dance for the follower!

TheTramp
17th-October-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Gadget and Graham
The way it is stated suggests that a beginner lady can enjoy a good dance with the vast majority of men ("almost any man of any ability"), and I simply don't think this is true.
If this is a falicy, then it would suggest that the majority of dances a lady has are not very good. I find it hard to believe that ladies would return week after week if most of their dances were poor:
Is one "good" dance a night sufficient to come back for?
I think that you are quoting both ends of the extremes - the black and white if you will Gadget. I don't think Graham suggests that there is only one good dance per night - merely that most beginner ladies don't enjoy a good dance with almost every man, for a variety of reasons. And I have to agree with him.

Not the majority doesn't immediately mean one.

There is also definitely a lot of grey area in between, where both partners (because, this all seems to be directed to the lady enjoying her partner, and I have met a number of ladies that I do not enjoy dancing with over my time, and I'm sure that every other man can relate) can enjoy a dance to a varying degree. I have excellent dances, good dances, enjoyable dances, fun dances, sexy dances, and also the not-so-good dances on almost every night I go dancing.

My partners just have crap dances :D

Steve

Gadget
17th-October-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Not in my opinion. I believe that good leading is what makes the lead smoother. It's possible to lead smoothly without any great level of musical interpretation or interesting style, and it's also possible to have bags of musicality and style and be a poor lead.
Yes, you can have lead without musicality/style {and visa versa}.

Most beginner ladys I have danced with can dance to the music before picking up any lead signals - if (as a lead) you can addapt to their musicality rather than forcing them to yours, it helps smooth the lead. This is normally what good followers do; 'read' the lead's musicality and addapt to it. If it is a popular track that you are both singing allong to {:sorry:}, then the lady will be more atune to any simple "break" leads, no matter what their level.

Style is subtally different in that it aids smooth transitions between moves rather than the moves themselves - a move done with technical precision and no style offers a multitude of possiblities into the next move. If led well {but not necissaraly technicaly accurate}, 'style' can be injected to flow the move into another one, giving the follower less options and more a feeling of dancing rather than just following the moves.

So {in my opinion} style and musicality do add to the lead's ability and smooth the lead for the lady.

Tramp: when did you get the role of ombisman? I still post the question - How many good dances does it take to entice you to come back next week?

thewacko
17th-October-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Gadget


I still post the question - How many good dances does it take to entice you to come back next week?

i dont think it is just how many dances it takes to entice anyone back, its more to do with the general atmosphere of the venue, and the friendlyness of the clientelle, this is - as mentioned earlier by someone else - where the role of the taxi dancer comes in, making themselves freely available to newcomers and welcoming them.

I am still amazed how many people come to ceroc venues, have an occaisonal dance but mainly come for the social element rather than hard core ceroc. Strengthening my point - its not how many dances it takes

:wink: careful wak i'm almost taking it serious:wink:

Graham
17th-October-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Most beginner ladies I have danced with can dance to the music before picking up any lead signals - if (as a lead) you can adapt to their musicality rather than forcing them to yours, it helps smooth the lead. This is normally what good followers do; 'read' the lead's musicality and adapt to it. If it is a popular track that you are both singing along to {:sorry:}, then the lady will be more atune to any simple "break" leads, no matter what their level.I'm extremely impressed that you're capable of reading your beginner ladies so well that you can tell the difference between them hesitating through being uncertain of what you're about to do, and them intentionally pausing to introduce their own musical interpretation. And I've only met a VERY small number of beginners who were confident enough about what they were doing to even try any musical interpretation.


Originally posted by Gadget
Style is subtly different in that it aids smooth transitions between moves rather than the moves themselves - a move done with technical precision and no style offers a multitude of possibilities into the next move. If led well {but not necessarily technically accurate}, 'style' can be injected to flow the move into another one, giving the follower less options and more a feeling of dancing rather than just following the moves.We seem to be talking about different things. Style as far as I'm concerned is about the way you hold your body, footwork, how you use your free hand, etc. I don't see how this affects transitions between moves, and I don't see how it would make it smoother for your partner.


Originally posted by Gadget
Tramp: when did you get the role of ombudsman? I still pose the question - How many good dances does it take to entice you to come back next week? Speaking personally it only takes one or two. Which isn't to say that the rest are bad - most will be average, and some will be fun or sexy, with just the odd bad one here and there.

thewacko
17th-October-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Whats that supposed to mean?????:confused:

no caps in this reply does that mean i am whispering:wink:

Tazmanian Devil
17th-October-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
no caps in this reply does that mean i am whispering:wink:

you whispering NEVER!!!!!!:rofl:

Still didn't tell me what you meant by your earlier comment:confused:

Jon
19th-October-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Most beginner ladys I have danced with can dance to the music before picking up any lead signals - if (as a lead) you can addapt to their musicality rather than forcing them to yours, it helps smooth the lead. This is normally what good followers do; 'read' the lead's musicality and addapt to it. If it is a popular track that you are both singing allong to {:sorry:}, then the lady will be more atune to any simple "break" leads, no matter what their level.

I'm afraid I agree with Graham on this one. I've never met a beginner lady who can do this. Considering most people that start ceroc tend to come from doing handbag dancing if I were to adapt my lead to their musicality then I'm no longer jiving but holding hands while doing handbag dancing.

To be honest I think it takes an experienced dancer to be able to be a good follower and an even more experienced dancer to adapt to the leads musicality.


Originally posted by Gadget
Style is subtally different in that it aids smooth transitions between moves rather than the moves themselves - a move done with technical precision and no style offers a multitude of possiblities into the next move. If led well {but not necissaraly technicaly accurate}, 'style' can be injected to flow the move into another one, giving the follower less options and more a feeling of dancing rather than just following the moves.
b]

I think theres a very fine line here. A move done technically precise does offer a multitude of options for the next move. But adding style to the move doesn't remove any of those options. In fact I think it opens up more options as you can play with the move change it by making it longer, slow it down, speed it up etc and for the follower offers more options for them to improvise if they wish too.

Gadget
20th-October-2003, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Jon
To be honest I think it takes an experienced dancer to be able to be a good follower and an even more experienced dancer to adapt to the leads musicality.
I don't know; I'm not a follower, but I reacon that in order to dance with someone you need to both be moving to the same parts of the music. Normally it's the lead who dictates this - if the follower can follow the lead in his timing, then that's musicality; the skill of the lead can then take the follower allong with them in expressions of the song. {no matter what the level of the follower}
btw "simple breaks" to me are things like holding a basket for an extra count, or timing the catch of a free-spin to the music and add an extra beat for emphasis, or elongating an exit from a comb,...


I think theres a very fine line here. A move done technically precise does offer a multitude of options for the next move. But adding style to the move doesn't remove any of those options. In fact I think it opens up more options as you can play with the move change it by making it longer, slow it down, speed it up etc and for the follower offers more options for them to improvise if they wish too.
can, yes. I agree that adding some style elements can open the follower's up to more options. But they can also be used to narrow down the options: Making a move longer and directing it into another one without any noticable join between them. Slowing a move down to a more controlled move allows stronger leading. Speeding a move up can allow you to move into a better position to lead the next move. And giving beginners space to improvise is a futile effort that leads to confusion.
I'm not saying that a move should not be done with technical precision - but there are occasions that elements of style can be used to better lead a beginner.

ChrisA
20th-October-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Jon
I'm afraid I agree with Graham on this one. I've never met a beginner lady who can do this. Considering most people that start ceroc tend to come from doing handbag dancing if I were to adapt my lead to their musicality then I'm no longer jiving but holding hands while doing handbag dancing.

Strongly agree with this. There are quite a few beginner ladies (maybe 10-15%) who try very hard to hold hands while handbag dancing. They do all kinds of "stuff" which on its own might look quite nice, but isn't in any way partner dancing. IME, these are among the hardest to get through to. They tend not to stay for very long, either. Possibly, and understandably, because they aren't enjoying it very much.


To be honest I think it takes an experienced dancer to be able to be a good follower and an even more experienced dancer to adapt to the leads musicality.

This is certainly true in general, but there are some "naturals" that follow exceptionally well quite instinctively. They tend to be confident as people, and hence relatively relaxed.

Getting beginner ladies to slow down is one of the keys to their learning to follow, IMHO. If they're nervous, they will take a lead (no matter how gentle) as a cue to leap into a move like a startled rabbit, which spoils the timing, balance, and puts the guy off too. Whereas if they relax, and resist rather than jumping in the direction of the lead, everything is far better. This is somewhat counterintuitive, though, and not anywhere near as easy to teach in a class as it is one to one.

Chris

Graham
20th-October-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Getting beginner ladies to slow down is one of the keys to their learning to follow, IMHO. If they're nervous, they will take a lead (no matter how gentle) as a cue to leap into a move like a startled rabbit, which spoils the timing, balance, and puts the guy off too. Whereas if they relax, and resist rather than jumping in the direction of the lead, everything is far better. This is somewhat counterintuitive, though, and not anywhere near as easy to teach in a class as it is one to one. Excellent point, Chris. I'd noticed this tendency but never really thought it out as clearly as you've expressed it - thanks!

Graham
20th-October-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I agree that adding some style elements can open the follower's up to more options. But they can also be used to narrow down the options: Making a move longer and directing it into another one without any noticable join between them. Slowing a move down to a more controlled move allows stronger leading. Speeding a move up can allow you to move into a better position to lead the next move.
I'm not saying that a move should not be done with technical precision - but there are occasions that elements of style can be used to better lead a beginner. I'm still mystified as to what the style elements are that make it easier for the follower.

If properly executed, all moves should flow into each other no matter whether you are using lots of extra "style" or not. Adding extra beats to moves does not affect how technically accurate your lead is. Splicing two moves together is improvisation, rather than what I was thinking of as "style".

Gadget
20th-October-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I'm still mystified as to what the style elements are that make it easier for the follower.
The examples I used were from the post I was replying to; I suppose it all depends on your definition of "Style":
To me it's the difference between acting and just saying the lines - it adds emotional content and drama.
Although moves can be led smoothly and with technical proficency into each other, there are some simple lead aids I use on beginners that are not technically correct, add to the style and help me lead:
eg. On a step-accross, using the right hand to guide the lady past. Using the off-hand on the lady's shoulder to help her stop and emphisise the push on a lady-spin...
But what I was referring to mainly was the lead's position relative to the lady - moving around the lady in preperation for moves involves more style than the "...and step back..." that is taught. (Whether this is style, skill or improvisation I guess is in the eyes of the beholder.)

ChrisA
20th-October-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
adding some style elements can open the follower's up to more options. But they can also be used to narrow down the options: Making a move longer and directing it into another one without any noticable join between them. Slowing a move down to a more controlled move allows stronger leading. Speeding a move up can allow you to move into a better position to lead the next move. And giving beginners space to improvise is a futile effort that leads to confusion.
I'm not saying that a move should not be done with technical precision - but there are occasions that elements of style can be used to better lead a beginner.
Sorry, but I don't understand any of this.

There shouldn't be noticeable joins between moves in any case. Also, stronger leading is required to slow a move down, not the other way round. And style isn't something that is either injected into the dancing or not. Not that I know much about style - but the greats (Nigel, Viktor for instance) dance with great style regardless of who they're dancing with - and their lead is invariably impeccable.

Changing the speed of moves, adding or subtracting beats according to the dictates of the music is fine with a competent follower. But it just confuses new beginners.

When I take a new beginner on to the floor, I start with a couple of in-and-outs to see if there's any instinct for resistance in the arms. If there is, I'll see if they step back when led. If they do, I'll see if they can turn reasonably in balance. If they can do this, there are a lot of options, and they will learn quickly.

If they can't, I'll go through the beginners routine a couple of times, get a feel for whether they're enjoying it or not. If they aren't, it's often because they aren't feeling the lead cos their arms are too floppy, in which case (if I'm on taxi duty) I'll do a one minute teach on how to resist, including getting them to relax and slow down as I said before. Usually that transforms the situation, and gives them a basis on which to build.

But at no time do I start messing about with the moves until I'm certain they can follow - I call that "showing off" which is a big no-no with new beginners IMHO. Dancing with beginners is about their enjoyment, not mine. Though when they enjoy it, I do too, hugely.

Chris

tubby
20th-October-2003, 01:29 PM
"But at no time do I start messing about with the moves until I'm certain they can follow - I call that "showing off" which is a big no-no with new beginners IMHO. Dancing with beginners is about their enjoyment, not mine. Though when they enjoy it, I do too, hugely."


Absolutely! Good point !

Gadget
20th-October-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
There shouldn't be noticeable joins between moves in any case.
Shouldn't, no. Perhaps it's the choice of move to follow move that can make it look disjointed then? Some moves flow naturally into each other: others take a bit of work to join nicely.

Also, stronger leading is required to slow a move down, not the other way round.
true, but I was thinking on a case where I had tried one move two or three times and it wasn't feeling right; I may slow an introductary move into it, then make sure that the lead for the 'problem' move was as clear as I could make it.

And style isn't something that is either injected into the dancing or not. ~ the greats dance with great style regardless of who they're dancing with - and their lead is invariably impeccable.
I dissagree with the first point, but agree completley with the second: I think that style can be worked on and added into your dancing at will. But is the 'style' of the greats actually "style", or is it just a level of leading above us mear mortals?

Changing the speed of moves, adding or subtracting beats according to the dictates of the music is fine with a competent follower. But it just confuses new beginners.
Apologies if it sounds as if I advocate doing this to every move or even the majority of moves danced with beginners - I'm not. If the beginner knows the music and I think they could handle a bit of variation then I might throw one or two curve balls; but no more and never to anyone that couldn't manage the "straight" variation first.

When I take a new beginner on to the floor, ~...
you sound a very cautious dancer - to be commended in a Taxi.

But at no time do I start messing about with the moves until I'm certain they can follow - I call that "showing off" which is a big no-no with new beginners IMHO. Dancing with beginners is about their enjoyment, not mine. Though when they enjoy it, I do too, hugely.
Naaa - "showing off" is much more fun when your partner can feed off it and then you both have tremendous fun. :D :D {And I normally do have beginners enjoying their dance - which means I do too. :D}

What I hate seeing is leads shoving beginner dancers through moves that are way too complex for them. :mad:
IMHO, simple variations on beginners moves are OK when you have sussed out that they know the basic move it's a derivative of. And you can lead it clearly. {confusing leads I think are more detrimental than confusing moves}

ChrisA
20th-October-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
true, but I was thinking on a case where I had tried one move two or three times and it wasn't feeling right; I may slow an introductary move into it, then make sure that the lead for the 'problem' move was as clear as I could make it.

IMHO, except when actually teaching, you should never lead a move that the follower can't follow. If you can't sense ahead of time whether your partner can follow a move you're about to lead, you shouldn't lead it. With more experienced dancers, you can take more of a risk, but with fragile beginners it has critical bearing on whether they enjoy it or not. Most of the time when a beginner fails to follow a beginners move (and indeed many of the simpler intermediate moves), it is the leader's fault, not the follower - either because the lead wasn't clear enough, or because the move should not have been danced.

You should absolutely not attempt a move several times if it isn't working. This only contributes to a sense of failure on the part of the beginner.



I think that style can be worked on and added into your dancing at will. But is the 'style' of the greats actually "style", or is it just a level of leading above us mear mortals?
Certainly, the ability of the greats to lead even beginners effortlessly through relatively complex moves is remarkable - and more proof, if any were needed, that it's bad leading, not bad following, that contributes most to the failure of new beginners to follow.

But although ability to lead well and stylish dancing tend to be seen together, they aren't the same.

If you can dance with style, do it all the time, I'd say (I wish I could :) ). You don't have to hit all the breaks to be stylish.



When I take a new beginner on to the floor, ~...
you sound a very cautious dancer - to be commended in a Taxi.


Thank you, but it's nothing to do with caution. It's about matching the demand placed on the beginner to their ability and experience - as with teaching anything, not just dance. It might sound cautious, but that whole process takes only about ten seconds, and it just looks like part of the dance - which it of course is.

Chris

Gadget
20th-October-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
IMHO, except when actually teaching, you should never lead a move that the follower can't follow. If you can't sense ahead of time whether your partner can follow a move you're about to lead, you shouldn't lead it. ~snip~ You should absolutely not attempt a move several times if it isn't working. This only contributes to a sense of failure on the part of the beginner.
If I'm dancing with a beginner, leading a move that has been done on stage (and I have done with loads of beginners before her) and it's not feeling right, then I want to know why. Both so I can lead it right next time, and so she can follow it better. I say that knowing a move went squiffy, then doing it right is 100% better than abandoning the move as a right-off.
I have only given up once on a move with a lady because I couldn't work out where I was going wrong. {soddin 1st move :mad: ;)}


But although ability to lead well and stylish dancing tend to be seen together, they aren't the same.
So what contributions to style don't help with the lead then?


It's about matching the demand placed on the beginner to their ability and experience - as with teaching anything, not just dance.
but to get the most out of lessons, you need to be streached occasionally. I don't taxi {I'm mug enough that I actually pay to dance with the beginners :wink:} so I never interrupt a dance with pointers or tips on following - I just try to lead well. I don't feel obliged to point out any failings or mistakes. I smile, enjoy the music and dance.

thewacko
20th-October-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Originally posted by ChrisA
[B]

IMHO, simple variations on beginners moves are OK when you have sussed out that they know the basic move it's a derivative of. And you can lead it clearly. {confusing leads I think are more detrimental than confusing moves}

for a new beginner, even the most simple of moves is complex, so are you saying that on their first night the taxi dancer should only do the first 4 moves of that nights routine. If so I disagree, as (hopefully) would some of the beginers I have danced with, as I dance them through other beginner moves and some of the simplest intermediate moves as well, not to show off, but to entice them into knowing what else they can do. Even though they do not know the moves or even the signals for the moves, it shows them how easy the can be lead, and also puts (i hope) a bit of fun into the dance instead of boringly going through the moves they have just learnt:cheers:

ChrisA
20th-October-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
so are you saying that on their first night the taxi dancer should only do the first 4 moves of that nights routine.
Er... in case that question is aimed at me (I got confused by the half quotes)...

Emphatically not.

Sometimes less than that on the first dance, sometimes more than that.

Often I will completely dismember the routine, take fragments of it and reassemble them together with other, easier fragments, in order to both (a) break the reliance on memory of what happened in the class that beginner followers often attempt to maintain, while (b) keeping things that will be slightly familiar. (An example would be, 1st half of manspin, straight into catapult, without the need for the turn under guy's right arm).

Sometimes I will take a move and repeat it several times in a row, so they get a chance to establish some body memory; sometimes when they're really good but have a tendency to respond too quickly I'll demo the fact that I can speed them up easily enough (eg, rarely, with a double assisted spin in one count), but not slow them down (eg let them see what happens if I turn a normal step across into one with a ladies walk around ending (don't know the real name for that).

But it's totally horses for courses, cos people are very different.

Chris

thewacko
20th-October-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Er... in case that question is aimed at me (I got confused by the half quotes)...

Chris
:sorry i am still trying to get used this chatline lark

ChrisA
20th-October-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
but to get the most out of lessons, you need to be stretched occasionally.

Totally agree. When I say "match the demand to the ability", that includes carefully selected things that will stretch them a little.



so I never interrupt a dance with pointers or tips on following - I just try to lead well. I don't feel obliged to point out any failings or mistakes. I smile, enjoy the music and dance.
A very sound approach. Mostly mine too. I don't want to give the impression that I'm constantly lecturing on the floor. Even if I'm actually wearing the shirt, mostly I'll just dance with them.

Chris

thewacko
22nd-October-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
A very sound approach. Mostly mine too. I don't want to give the impression that I'm constantly lecturing on the floor. Even if I'm actually wearing the shirt, mostly I'll just dance with them.

Chris

i often dance with a beginner especially when wearing "the shirt", and if i do a move the beginner doesn't know (for instance the wurlitzer - a move that if the lady doesn't know she will try and go spinning off into the horizon despite keeping a firm grip on her left hand) even in freestyle, i will stop and explain the move to her - this i do not do as a lecturer, but simply so that should she come up against the same move again she will at least know what to expect, i find the friendly slowly slowly approach often helps the beginner not only to learn moves but to actually enjoy the whole dance. But again there are moves i occaisionaly do to a beginner that i know she will not have a clue what is going on but is so easy to lead, without her being able to do her own thing, the aim of which is to entice her to want more and also to get a laugh more than anything (refer to footnote:really: )

ChrisA
22nd-October-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
i often dance with a beginner especially when wearing "the shirt", and if i do a move the beginner doesn't know (for instance the wurlitzer - a move that if the lady doesn't know she will try and go spinning off into the horizon despite keeping a firm grip on her left hand) even in freestyle, i will stop and explain the move to her - this i do not do as a lecturer, but simply so that should she come up against the same move again she will at least know what to expect, i find the friendly slowly slowly approach often helps the beginner not only to learn moves but to actually enjoy the whole dance. But again there are moves i occaisionaly do to a beginner that i know she will not have a clue what is going on but is so easy to lead, without her being able to do her own thing, the aim of which is to entice her to want more and also to get a laugh more than anything (refer to footnote:really: )
So what part of this do you imagine I would disagree with? :D

Of course -as a taxi, dancing with a beginner, if something needs to be said, say it. And your wurlitzer example is a very good one - not least because of the injury risk as the lady twists away, yanking her left arm painfully behind her back.

I didn't say "never say anything", I said "I don't want to give the impression that I'm constantly lecturing on the floor". Not quite the same thing. Though it remains the case that - in general - too many blokes who think they know what they're talking about spend too much time attempting to teach new beginners, when they should be spending their time dancing sensitively with them.

Chris

bigdjiver
22nd-October-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
i often dance with a beginner especially when wearing "the shirt", and if i do a move the beginner doesn't know (for instance the wurlitzer - a move that if the lady doesn't know she will try and go spinning off into the horizon despite keeping a firm grip on her left hand) even in freestyle, i will stop and explain the move to her - this i do not do as a lecturer, but simply so that should she come up against the same move again she will at least know what to expect, i find the friendly slowly slowly approach often helps the beginner not only to learn moves but to actually enjoy the whole dance. But again there are moves i occaisionaly do to a beginner that i know she will not have a clue what is going on but is so easy to lead, without her being able to do her own thing, the aim of which is to entice her to want more and also to get a laugh more than anything (refer to footnote:really: )

I do not believe that the Wurlitzer should be a beginner move. It is enough to teach a beginner that a flat hand means spin without having to burden her with an exception so soon.

I too take beginners into moves that they cannot help but follow and explain that that was not a beginner move. This boosts their confidence - already they can do moves that are not beginner moves. The Wurlitzer invariably undoes that good work. I too do the occasional fun move, the basket peek-a-boo (whatever its real name is) If nothing else it convinces the beginner that is worrying about what people are thinking about her that some of us are mad, and it does not matter what we think.

bigdjiver
22nd-October-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
for a new beginner, even the most simple of moves is complex, so are you saying that on their first night the taxi dancer should only do the first 4 moves of that nights routine. If so I disagree, as (hopefully) would some of the beginers I have danced with, as I dance them through other beginner moves and some of the simplest intermediate moves as well, not to show off, but to entice them into knowing what else they can do. Even though they do not know the moves or even the signals for the moves, it shows them how easy the can be lead, and also puts (i hope) a bit of fun into the dance instead of boringly going through the moves they have just learnt:cheers:

I am with you on this, although I vary my approach to suit the beginner. (I guess you do too) At the hopeless end of the scale I once just took a beginner through the four moves of the lesson repeatedly, hoping that she would eventually do one right, and was rewarded with "you don't know many moves, do you?"
At the other end of the scale I just led a beginner in a fast rock and roll number just like she had been doing it for years, seeing that she had the talent to follow, and enjoy.

Mostly I find beginners are tensed up trying to remember the mechanics of the moves so that they can do them without being led. I sometimes get an alarmed "I don't know that move", to which I reply "You've just done it." and explain that Ceroc is about leading and following, and she has the talent to follow. Partner usually realises that I know what I am doing and relaxes very quickly

ChrisA
22nd-October-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
The Wurlitzer invariably undoes that good work.
Often this is the case. It doesn't have to be led with a strong flat left hand though.

It's just as easy, instead of dancing it the way Ceroc teaches it, to get to the flat left hand, and then do most of the work yourself - a tiny hint only with the guy's left (so very little lady turn out, since she can't confuse it with the lead for a push spin), then guy's right hand first towards the guy and to the left to draw the lady across to prepare for the flick spin. It's then 100% safe.

By the time you even think of a wurlitzer with a new beginner (agree 100% with you there BigD), you should know if she's the type to leap (sic) rather than follow.

Sorry, but if the lady throws herself out too hard and ends up in a vicious half nelson, risking shoulder dislocation, it is unequivocally 100% the guy's fault for taking the chance.

Chris

ChrisA
22nd-October-2003, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
just like she had been doing it for years, seeing that she had the talent to follow, and enjoy.

Ain't that the case, though.

Last night at Hipsters there was a woman looking a bit bemused at Amir's choreographed routine - she says to me, "this isn't at all what I was expecting, I've never done this before".

Alarmed, I say "You're a beginner?" She says, "Well, I've done two Ceroc classes".

Zoikes, I think... damage limitation required... "Don't worry, this will seem quite hard, but it's an advanced class. Come and dance with me between the classes...

She did, and she was totally awesome. I could tell she hadn't been jiving for long but she was fab. After quickly realising that she could follow pretty much anything (I was very careful, built it up a bit at a time), and having a couple of really nice dances with her, I said, "Ok, so what other dancing have you done?"

She denied any dancing at all... maybe she was lying but it was quite extraordinary all the same. She also had no trouble with Nigel's class.

Chris

DavidB
22nd-October-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
I am with you on this, although I vary my approach to suit the beginner. If I'm dancing with someone I've never met before, I have no idea if they are a beginner, a 'dance god', or anything in between. I just lead whatever she seems to be able to follow. I would find it difficult to restrict myself to beginner moves, because I've forgotten which ones they are.


Originally posted by thewacko
the wurlitzer I didn't know what a Wurlitzer was until I looked at Jiveoholic's Database (http://www.jiveoholic.org.uk/default.asp). Am I the only person who leads this move with my right hand? All I do with my left hand is let go.

David

ChrisA
22nd-October-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Am I the only person who leads this move with my right hand? All I do with my left hand is let go.

David
Quite so.

As I said:



It's just as easy, instead of dancing it the way Ceroc teaches it, to get to the flat left hand, and then do most of the work yourself - a tiny hint only with the guy's left (so very little lady turn out, since she can't confuse it with the lead for a push spin), then guy's right hand first towards the guy and to the left to draw the lady across to prepare for the flick spin. It's then 100% safe.
Chris

DavidB
22nd-October-2003, 11:17 PM
Sorry Chris - I misread what you said :sorry :sorry

ChrisA
22nd-October-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Sorry Chris - I misread what you said :sorry :sorry
My fault, no doubt. I should have been more succinct. Sorry!

(but it was nice to discover that I'm not alone :) )

Chris

Gadget
23rd-October-2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
By the time you even think of a wurlitzer with a new beginner (agree 100% with you there BigD), you should know if she's the type to leap (sic) rather than follow.
I've never had a problem with leading a beginner in this move - hardest part is sometimes getting her to let go on the flick-spin (but then you just wrap-in instead).

The worst one I find is the yo-yo-pushspin {R to R, step in side to side, fold arm, open to rotate lady, take back to elbow-elbow with flat hand, push down into freespin}. They just can't get the "rotate" bit unless it's been demoed (or I see they can't get it and compare it to a 1st move where I can use the off-hand to help lead)
Alternativly, if the {name? straight yo-yo?} has been demoed (...one where you fold to a flat hand and arc the lady out into a free-spin...) it's hard to get them to feel for the diference; I sometimes use a slight 'grip' on her fingers during the turn-out if she's eluded the lead the first time.

thewacko
23rd-October-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
So what part of this do you imagine I would disagree with? :D {B}

:sorry i am not saying you would disagree!

[B]Of course -as a taxi, dancing with a beginner, if something needs to be said, say it. And your wurlitzer example is a very good one - not least because of the injury risk as the lady twists away, yanking her left arm painfully behind her back.

I didn't say "never say anything", I said "I don't want to give the impression that I'm constantly lecturing on the floor". Not quite the same thing. Though it remains the case that - in general - too many blokes who think they know what they're talking about spend too much time attempting to teach new beginners, when they should be spending their time dancing sensitively with them.

Chris

:cheers: I totally agree here, the tact to take is not to teach on the dance floor but cater for the needs of the beginner, not for the needs of the male dancer - taxi or otherwise

thewacko
23rd-October-2003, 12:55 PM
:tears: ZOICKS

I only mentioned the wurlitzer as an example of a difficult beginners move that be easily mis read by the beginner lady



Originally posted by bigdjiver
I do not believe that the Wurlitzer should be a beginner move. It is enough to teach a beginner that a flat hand means spin without having to burden her with an exception so soon.


how can the wurlitzer be a beginners move and the twiddly diddly (double return to those who don't recognize the name) be an intermediate move:sick:

Gadget
23rd-October-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
how can the wurlitzer be a beginners move and the twiddly diddly (double return to those who don't recognize the name) be an intermediate move:sick:
I never understood the line between "beginner" and "intermediate" moves: I have seen almost a complete beginner's class being taught as 'one move' in the intermediate class (OK, so the returns were missed out...) :sick:

ChrisA
23rd-October-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I never understood the line between "beginner" and "intermediate" moves:

There is no line. But that's not the point. The beginners moves are just 20-odd easy-ish moves which act as an introduction and form a basis for the variations. They're taught (approximately) in rotation, with some overlap, so that new people can come to a set of classes and learn them all in a relatively short time, while at the same time allowing irregular attenders to have a high chance of not repeating all the same stuff as they last saw.

Some of the things that are a building block might not necessarily be the very easiest, or indeed easier than anything you'd do in an intermediate class - although for the most part they are.



I have seen almost a complete beginner's class being taught as 'one move' in the intermediate class (OK, so the returns were missed out...) :sick:
What part of "intermediate" don't you understand? :D :D :D

Don't worry - as time goes by, the intermediate classes unaccountably do get easier :-)

Chris

thewacko
23rd-October-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA


What part of "intermediate" don't you understand? :D :D :D

Don't worry - as time goes by, the intermediate classes unaccountably do get easier :-)

Chris

:devil: ooh catty:wink:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :cheers:

ChrisA
23rd-October-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
:devil: ooh catty:wink:
I didn't mean it like that - it's just that the intermediate classes are _supposed_ to be harder. No one would go to them if they weren't.

If they're difficult, go to more of them, then they'll get less difficult over time.

Duhh... :confused:

Chris

thewacko
23rd-October-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I didn't mean it like that - it's just that the intermediate classes are _supposed_ to be harder. No one would go to them if they weren't.

If they're difficult, go to more of them, then they'll get less difficult over time.

Duhh... :confused:

Chris

I know what you mean - about 18 months ago I used to go to Fulham and tried :sad: to participate in Victors intermediate classes, invariably this involved me leaving the class and heading towards the bar in utter frustration.

I would now love to go, infact I beleive he's now at Hipsters or something, and try his classes again - I am going to give it a try in a few weeks time, and hopefully I may :D hopefully :D be able to complete a class rather than just one of his moves

:cheers:

Gadget
23rd-October-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
What part of "intermediate" don't you understand? :D :D :D
Don't worry - as time goes by, the intermediate classes unaccountably do get easier :-)
Erm... I think you missunderstood: what I mean is that most "intermediate" moves are just a collection of "beginner" moves strung together - I would class these as "beginner" moves as well (but needing a better memory).

"Intermediate" to me involves spliceing moves or using body leads or tying knots with your arms...

I don't think that I have encountered an intermediate move that I've struggled with {yet :wink:} - I have encountered a several moves that the lady trys to lead from what they have seen on stage, as opposed to what I'm leading {That sounds wrong: I am leading the move shown on stage, but they are just moving where they think they should be, regardless of what I'm doing}

ChrisA
23rd-October-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
I would now love to go, infact I believe he's now at Hipsters or something, and try his classes again:cheers:
He is indeed - on Wednesdays.

Well worth it. The classes are usually quite manageable, though there's invariably something tricky in there.

Careful tho... it's a non-smoking venue :devil: :devil:

Chris

ChrisA
23rd-October-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Erm... I think you missunderstood: what I mean is that most "intermediate" moves are just a collection of "beginner" moves strung together - I would class these as "beginner" moves as well (but needing a better memory).

Sounds like the "easy" end of intermediate to me.



I have encountered a several moves that the lady tries to lead from what they have seen on stage, as opposed to what I'm leading {That sounds wrong: I am leading the move shown on stage, but they are just moving where they think they should be, regardless of what I'm doing}
This is very common. However, as your lead improves, you'll find that, mysteriously, so does their following.:D :D

If you assume that you are 100% at fault, 100% of the time (even if you're not, which you mostly will be :tears: :tears: ), you will find that you'll improve far quicker. Take me for example - someday I hope to even get beyond "amoeba" level :D

Chris

thewacko
23rd-October-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
He is indeed - on Wednesdays.

Well worth it. The classes are usually quite manageable, though there's invariably something tricky in there.

Careful tho... it's a non-smoking venue :devil: :devil:

Chris

well beware all at Hipsters, the Tazmanian Devil and The Wacko are about to pounce, but dont worry too much, as emma may be coming as well in which case we wont dare try and smoke inside the venue:waycool: :cheers:

plus it will be in two or three weeks anyway. This should give you all time to find a different venue so you don't have to meet us:devil:

I have heard Charlton is good on a Wednesday night:cheers:

thewacko
23rd-October-2003, 06:29 PM
going back to the question of "the role of a taxi dancer"

Is it me, or does this happen to you lot out in computer land as well, when I am at a different venue to the ones I taxi at, I cant help but watch how other taxi dancers re-act in their classes.

The other monday i was at a venue where I saw a male beginner struggling (he was obviously a new beginner) The male taxi dancer was too busy trying to show the rest of the class the ropes - and I am not slagging him off for this, just making an observation - and the female taxi was also rather busy - there were a lot of beginners that night - I had an irristable urge to jump in and help, but pulled myself short as it wasn't my class, and went to the female taxi and pointed out the struugling beginner who then hopefully went to his aid.

Is it true - once a taxi always a taxi.

:cheers:

Chris
23rd-October-2003, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by thewacko
I had an irristable urge to jump in and help, but pulled myself short as it wasn't my class, and went to the female taxi and pointed out the struugling beginner who then hopefully went to his aid. Is it true - once a taxi always a taxi.
:cheers:

So true - but I think you did the good thing. The taxi-dancer with the teashirt on has an accepted role in the eyes of the beginner and there's an automatic teacher-pupil (or helper-beginner) type relationship. Taxi-dancers not on duty can be encouraging but only just as another one of the dancers, generally.

I remember Obi (at Stockbridge Edinburgh) when he had finished the beginners class and I was taxiing, would come and ask me to point out all the people who were knew that night so he could seek them out and help them. I've never forgotten his conscienciousness, and it was a great help those nights when the taxi dancers were a bit over-worked. One night when the duty taxi dancers weren't there, I heard he took the (taxi) consolidation class as well as the beginners and intermediates - that sort of devotion is quite moving I think.

(Going off the topic slightly but I thought it was worth mentioning.):cheers:

Unregistered
24th-October-2003, 09:08 PM
Male taxi dancers are great for us female beginners but I have recently attended a class with my husband who was cerocing for the first time and there was no female taxi dancer. This led to a very uncomfortable night as my very nervous very unconfident husband felt very left out. Made worse by an inconsiderate experienced female dancer who asked him to dance. At first pleased with the offer of a dance at last he was literallyn left standing as he decided to be clear that he was a beginner only to be left standing alone on the dance floor mid track.

Tazmanian Devil
25th-October-2003, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by thewacko
I have heard Charlton is good on a Wednesday night:cheers:


Mmmmm I will have to agree with you there:kiss:

bigdjiver
30th-October-2003, 09:18 AM
posted to a songwriting forum:

A taxi dancer is the name Ceroc (Tm) Modern Jive dance gives to dancers who get free admission for helping beginners for part of an evening. There are usually three or four on duty, male and female. They actually mostly do it for love of the dance, and the joys of teaching.

To a Latin beat.

The Taxi Dancers Lament
--------------------------

Mr Right is home alone
in front of his TV
Mr Right all on your own
please come and dance with me

Mr Right doesn't like fast wimmen
drugs and booze and lots of sinning
No, Mr Right is sitting there
in front of his TV

Somehow I must find a way to let my music reach him
He thinks that he cannot dance, but I'm the one to teach him

Mr Right
he's not too bright
but one fine night
he'll get it right
He'll learn to dance
and at last my love
will take it's chance to reach him

Tazmanian Devil
3rd-November-2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
posted to a songwriting forum:

A taxi dancer is the name Ceroc (Tm) Modern Jive dance gives to dancers who get free admission for helping beginners for part of an evening. There are usually three or four on duty, male and female. They actually mostly do it for love of the dance, and the joys of teaching.

To a Latin beat.

The Taxi Dancers Lament
--------------------------

Mr Right is home alone
in front of his TV
Mr Right all on your own
please come and dance with me

Mr Right doesn't like fast wimmen
drugs and booze and lots of sinning
No, Mr Right is sitting there
in front of his TV

Somehow I must find a way to let my music reach him
He thinks that he cannot dance, but I'm the one to teach him

Mr Right
he's not too bright
but one fine night
he'll get it right
He'll learn to dance
and at last my love
will take it's chance to reach him

:rofl: :rofl: Thats fantasic! Nice one!:cheers: :kiss: :hug:

Sheepman
3rd-November-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
he decided to be clear that he was a beginner only to be left standing alone on the dance floor mid track.
Very disheartening, and I thought it was only men that behaved that badly! Those first few weeks are really the hardest part to get through, and I hope something like this is extremely rare. I hope he won't be too discouraged by this, you need at least 6 sessions before you can properly decide whether or not to carry on.

Greg

Graham
3rd-November-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Male taxi dancers are great for us female beginners but I have recently attended a class with my husband who was cerocing for the first time and there was no female taxi dancer. This led to a very uncomfortable night as my very nervous very unconfident husband felt very left out. Made worse by an inconsiderate experienced female dancer who asked him to dance. At first pleased with the offer of a dance at last he was literallyn left standing as he decided to be clear that he was a beginner only to be left standing alone on the dance floor mid track. I'm very sorry to hear about someone being so inconsiderate - I hope you can persuade your husband to persevere, as at most venues this type of behaviour is rare. If you do come along as a couple, please remember that in the event of there not being a female (or male) taxi dancer available, the taxi dancer who is there will be able to work with you as a couple, so there should never be no help at all. And even if you go on your own, please don't hesitate to ask for help from a taxi of the "wrong" gender - if nothing else we will be able to identify willing partners for you, both for a revision lesson and for freestyle.

Jon
3rd-November-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
At first pleased with the offer of a dance at last he was literallyn left standing as he decided to be clear that he was a beginner only to be left standing alone on the dance floor mid track.

Yep had this happen to me when I was starting out. Not very nice, if someones asks you to dance the least they could do is see it through to the end. Have to say this was in a busy London venue and after that my confidence was dented and I always avoided the lady in question. Then after 2 years of dancing I recently saw her dancing and this is going to sound really awful but oh my god was she terrible and I now look at her in a different light, brings a smile to my face every time.

ChrisA
4th-November-2003, 01:28 PM
I was taxiing last night at Twickenham, and I had such a lovely time.

We've been ousted from our normal venue for a month, so we're in a local pub's functions room. We have no space for a beginners review, so the intermediates class is being pitched just a little way beyond beginners, and the beginners are being encouraged to stay for it. The room is a bit on the small side, so it's a bit cosy.

The beginner girls are a real bunch of sweethearts, trying hard and loving it, despite lacking confidence. There's one who's quite a natural, and always seems to exude a "I can't quite believe I'm doing this" feeling. There's another who is quite a bit better than average, but spends a lot of time beating herself up for not being perfect - after five weeks ... :really:

They're doing really well, and it feels a real privilege to be able to contribute a little to it. I get such a kick out of working with beginners, I just had to post...

Chris