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David Bailey
9th-August-2006, 07:51 PM
Inspired by, well, me I suppose, in this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=263103)...

For some reason, Ceroc / MJ just isn't seen as cool by non-cerocers - not like salsa, not like AT, not like (now) ballroom dancing. Dancing Ceroc is not something that, generally, people drop into casual conversation the way you might with those other dances - sometimes it almost seems like a guilty habit.

Also, despite the fact that the MJ scene is one of the largest dance scenes in the country, of a comparable size to salsa and much larger than most others, it's not particularly well-known as a dance form. I'd bet that more people have heard of AT than MJ - and I'm sure that more people have heard of salsa than MJ.

Even the Ceroc website calls it Britain's best kept secret... :rolleyes:

IMO, a couple of things which make MJ "uncool" and difficult to promote, are:


The name: it doesn't help promote a brand when the name is split (de facto) between "dancing Ceroc" and "dancing Modern Jive" - yes, I know, MJ is the name, Ceroc is the business - but once you get into explaining that difference we're well into eye-glazing-over territory already. Also, neither name is ideal - Modern Jive is too long and sounds just naff, and Ceroc is less-than-informative.
The venues: as discussed in the "DJs" thread, these are not nightclubby - they're big halls. Nobody teaches MJ in a pub or club, so it doesn't have that sort of atmosphere.


Comments? Suggestions? Or doesn't it matter as long as we enjoy ourselves?

Feelingpink
9th-August-2006, 08:09 PM
AT has better shoes, at least for the women. Get Christian Louboutin to sponsor Ceroc and you're halfway there.... :devil:

RogerR
9th-August-2006, 08:25 PM
Do we want MJ to be cool?

If you want to dance in clubby rooms you will have to expect to spend at least £15 - 20 a head on booze, and have sofas and sticky carpet in the way and a very small dancefloor. So many promoters tried to use nightclubs in the early days but the cost is far too great, as dancers dont drink booze. I dont understand the likening MJ to salsa, Salsa is cool because of the latino chics and guys. Mj was in london before salsa.

MJ is really rock n roll with all the complex and risky bits cut out, and the booze cut out.

MJ never had top performers like the Zottos of Tango por Dos and as a dance form the standard of all but a very few is really poor as performance, though for the dancers it is easy to start and satisfying to do.

littlewiggle
9th-August-2006, 08:28 PM
[QUOTE=: DAVIDJAMES


The venues: as discussed in the "DJs" thread, these are not nightclubby - they're big halls. Nobody teaches MJ in a pub or club, so it doesn't have that sort of atmosphere.

QUOTE]

I definitely agree that some of the venues are less than desirable - just thinking about my recent visit to West Bridgford - I felt like I was going to Brownies!

I am told that Ceroc in my area is known as a pick up joint for the oldest swingers in town....:grin: Some of my friends initially thought it was a singles club. Whilst it is a great place to meet people, I don't think everyone there is on the pull......then again, some nights I do wonder.........!! :rolleyes:

LMC
9th-August-2006, 08:36 PM
The only other dance form which is currently widely available outside big cities seems to be salsa.

And let's face it, outside big cities, the average age of the punters goes up and the average height, attractiveness and dancing ability goes down.

bigdjiver
9th-August-2006, 08:46 PM
I think we need a T.V. presence. "Coolness" could arrive in the form of an avalanche.

El Salsero Gringo
9th-August-2006, 08:48 PM
the name is split (de facto) between "dancing Ceroc" and "dancing Modern Jive" - yes, I know, MJ is the name, Ceroc is the businessNot according to Ceroc, anyway. Ceroc is the dance, and modern jive does not exist. If there's a problem with having two names, blame all the break-aways, johnny-come-lately's and coat-tailers...

Comments? Suggestions?Sure. If you want Ceroc to be cool (is that still a desirable thing to be? sounds a bit 'hey Daddy-oh" to me) just ban the 90% of customers who aren't cool. Which includes you and I David, and most of the people on this forum.

Knitting, anyone?

Lou
9th-August-2006, 09:26 PM
The venues: as discussed in the "DJs" thread, these are not nightclubby - they're big halls. Nobody teaches MJ in a pub or club, so it doesn't have that sort of atmosphere.

That isn't strictly true, is it David? :devil: I can think of a couple of examples of Ceroc™ in a pub or club environment.

(But, yes, it doesn't make it clubby)

The name:
well.... the ™ doesn't help... :whistle:

***. It's cheesy. It's never going to be cutting edge of fashion. ESG, toss me a ball of wool. I need a new cardie whilst I wait for the revolution to start.

David Bailey
9th-August-2006, 09:37 PM
Not according to Ceroc, anyway. Ceroc is the dance, and modern jive does not exist.

Well, to quote the "What is Ceroc" part of the Ceroc.com website (http://www.ceroc.com/nonmembers/whatisceroc.htm):

James Cronin originally devised Ceroc in 1980 to incorporate dance lessons with a fun night out. Since then Ceroc has developed its own unique style of Modern Jive which is easy to learn and great fun.
So Ceroc is the organisation, teaching a flavour of the general dance style, which is called Modern Jive. And that's official. :na:


If there's a problem with having two names, blame all the break-aways, johnny-come-lately's and coat-tailers...
Oooh, yes, let's have a "history of MJ" navel-gaze session, can we?


Sure. If you want Ceroc to be cool (is that still a desirable thing to be? sounds a bit 'hey Daddy-oh" to me) just ban the 90% of customers who aren't cool. Which includes you and I David, and most of the people on this forum.
Knitting, anyone?
"Cool" was just a catchy title. Dude.

But what I want is to be able to tell people what I do in MJ without launching into a 5-minute explanation, and then finally giving up and saying "Look, it's a bit like salsa, OK?" at the end. (c. Gus, a while back)

What I want is for the dancing to be respected, for the dance form to progress, and for it to become more acceptable and seen as less of a "Oldest Swinger In Town" outing ( :eek: )

And I want a hard-boiled egg.

El Salsero Gringo
9th-August-2006, 09:56 PM
Well, to quote the "What is Ceroc" part of the Ceroc.com website (http://www.ceroc.com/nonmembers/whatisceroc.htm):

So Ceroc is the organisation, teaching a flavour of the general dance style, which is called Modern Jive. And that's official. :na:Ah... must email Mr. Ellard to fix that one then.
But what I want is to be able to tell people what I do in MJ without launching into a 5-minute explanation, and then finally giving up and saying "Look, it's a bit like salsa, OK?" at the end. (c. Gus, a while back)The easiest way to fix that one is to talk only to be people who already know what Ceroc (OK, OK, Modern Jive, you happy now?) actually is.
ESG, toss me a ball of wool. I need a new cardie whilst I wait for the revolution to start.
And I want a hard-boiled egg.What do I look like? Santa?

Alright, here you are:
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/ICN/ICN001/F0004010.jpg

... and
http://suse.dentatec.com/images/ZZKrempel/Paket06_07_01.jpg

Minnie M
9th-August-2006, 09:57 PM
The only other dance form which is currently widely available outside big cities seems to be salsa..........
Rock 'n' Roll has a bigger audience over Salsa & MJ in the UK - but that don't shout about it AND most of the dances are in working mens clubs. They also have as many weekenders as MJ & Salsa - you only have to look at the link I have to RnR on my web site.

El Salsero Gringo
9th-August-2006, 09:58 PM
And let's face it, outside big cities, the average age of the punters goes up and the average height, attractiveness and dancing ability goes down.You've got this thing about height, haven't you?

Yogi_Bear
9th-August-2006, 09:59 PM
The only other dance form which is currently widely available outside big cities seems to be salsa.

And let's face it, outside big cities, the average age of the punters goes up and the average height, attractiveness and dancing ability goes down.
Well, based in Norwich, I guess that's buttonholed me :whistle:

straycat
9th-August-2006, 10:19 PM
Comments? Suggestions? Or doesn't it matter as long as we enjoy ourselves?

To give people the right impression, I generally just show 'em a clip of some really good Lindy, and say MJ is derived from that. Seems to work :whistle:

littlewiggle
9th-August-2006, 10:30 PM
To give people the right impression, I generally just show 'em a clip of some really good Lindy, and say MJ is derived from that. Seems to work :whistle:

Ooh really? I personally don't like Lindy - IMO that really does look old fashioned!

Daisy Chain
9th-August-2006, 10:35 PM
Comments? Suggestions? Or doesn't it matter as long as we enjoy ourselves?

I'm a grown up now. I couldn't give a monkey's about being cool. I listen to Terry Wogan. There. I've admitted it.

Daisy

(A Hot Little Flower)

straycat
9th-August-2006, 10:36 PM
Ooh really? I personally don't like Lindy - IMO that really does look old fashioned!

You think? (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=9137969574019234586&q=frida+and+zack)

ducasi
9th-August-2006, 11:18 PM
You think? (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=9137969574019234586&q=frida+and+zack)
Um, you listened to the music they're dancing to, and you don't at least think it sounds old-fashioned?

frodo
9th-August-2006, 11:19 PM
...
For some reason, Ceroc / MJ just isn't seen as cool by non-cerocers - not like salsa, not like AT, not like (now) ballroom dancing. Dancing Ceroc is not something that, generally, people drop into casual conversation the way you might with those other dances - sometimes it almost seems like a guilty habit.

I reckon unless it loses the beginner focus, and accessibility is is always going to be an uphill struggle, to be 'cool', regardless of names or venues.

It might however be less 'uncool', without too much difficulty by losing some (hopefully) less fundamental things like the cheese. Taking out the clapping would be an excellent start.

Maybe the answer is not to worry about it, given
Knitting.. has a certain coolness nowadays.

ducasi
9th-August-2006, 11:24 PM
If you want to dance in clubby rooms you will have to expect to spend at least £15 - 20 a head on booze, and have sofas and sticky carpet in the way and a very small dancefloor. So many promoters tried to use nightclubs in the early days but the cost is far too great, as dancers dont drink booze. How does Ceroc Scotland manage to hold (at least) two of its class nights in clubs then?

At Jumpin' Jack's in Glasgow most people don't drink booze, there's free water, a couple of sofas, but mainly stools, no carpet anywhere once you're inside, and a large wooden dance-floor.

In Aberdeen it's the same.

OK, maybe JJ's is not your average club, but suitable venues do exist in some places it seems.

straycat
9th-August-2006, 11:25 PM
Um, you listened to the music they're dancing to, and you don't at least think it sounds old-fashioned?

I think it sounds timeless. And let's not forget that music doesn't get cooler than jazz :waycool:

But maybe this (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3161354363501175831&q=hip+hop+lindy) is more to your taste?

El Salsero Gringo
9th-August-2006, 11:26 PM
Taking out the clapping would be an excellent start.Oooh no: for the first four months, I only went for the clapping.

The words of Groucho Marx come to mind, when I read this thread: "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member."

ducasi
9th-August-2006, 11:30 PM
I think it sounds timeless. And let's not forget that music doesn't get cooler than jazz :waycool:

But maybe this (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3161354363501175831&q=hip+hop+lindy) is more to your taste?
That is more to my taste. ;) But I've got the feeling that at Lindy freestyles (what's the name they use?) there would be more of the first type of music played. Please tell me I'm wrong.

(And Jazz is only cool to people who think that Jazz is cool. :cool:)

Lindsay
9th-August-2006, 11:38 PM
I agree with Straycat, big band/jazz/swing music is extremely cool. Moreso than dated pop (sometimes a feature at ceroc venues :wink:).... True jazz (in the sense of Ducasi's post) is rarely played at swing freestyles. Average age may be indirectionally proportional to cool factor.

ducasi
9th-August-2006, 11:45 PM
The main barrier to Ceroc being "cool" (which we'll take as abbreviation for "has lots of mind-share in the student/young adult demographic in a similar way to Salsa") in my (humble) opinion is the name.

The best way to grow mind-share is through TV and radio. Most media, although they may have had brief flirtations with Ceroc won't go any further as it then becomes promotion for a private company.

The alter-ego name "Modern Jive" I've talked about before. There's nothing cool in that name.

I had heard of Ceroc to some degree way back years ago, but the words "jive" and "rock'n'roll" put me off. When I met someone who did it, I continued to dismiss it as "rock and roll dancing", and figured that I wouldn't like the music or the style of dancing.

It was only when I saw her dancing Ceroc to modern dance music did I become at all interested.

Because it's very hard to put a couple of Ceroc dancers in front of every person's eyes in the country in order to break down the prejudice that both the Ceroc name and the Modern Jive tag create, I believe what would ease the route to "coolness" would be a change of name for the dance to something which is not owned and trademarked by just one company.

ducasi
9th-August-2006, 11:50 PM
Best way to make a dance "cool" is to have a number 1 hit with the name of the dance in the title of the song, and a sexy video which shows the dance.

Think Lambada. :)

Tessalicious
10th-August-2006, 12:00 AM
I think you'll find such a song exists - it's called C.E.R.O.C and it's used as the soundtrack to several of the Aussie instructional DVDs (http://www.ceroc.com.au/dvds/index.php) - but I have this feeling that 'number 1 hit' might be taking it a little too far.

'A Little Late Night Modern Jive' maybe?
or 'Modern Jive No 5'? (now we're getting somewhere)
or maybe even 'Cerocing in the Moonlight'?
What about 'Ceroc the Night Away? :devil:

Freya
10th-August-2006, 12:15 AM
How does Ceroc Scotland manage to hold (at least) two of its class nights in clubs then?

At Jumpin' Jack's in Glasgow most people don't drink booze, there's free water, a couple of sofas, but mainly stools, no carpet anywhere once you're inside, and a large wooden dance-floor.

In Aberdeen it's the same.

OK, maybe JJ's is not your average club, but suitable venues do exist in some places it seems.
:yeah: Aberdeen has two of it's regular class nights in JJ's! IT's a nice big dance floor and their is a bit more of a party atmosphere!

Gotta say though I first got dragged along to LeRoc in Glasgow and when I got back to Aberdeen one thing that put me off Ceroc was that It was in JJ's - It just ain't "Cool". That and I thought they were completely different things! How Dense was I?

littlewiggle
10th-August-2006, 07:25 AM
You think? (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=9137969574019234586&q=frida+and+zack)


Yep I still think! Actually I think it's nerdy.....oops ***waits for the backlash***!!

straycat
10th-August-2006, 07:58 AM
Yep I still think! Actually I think it's nerdy.....oops ***waits for the backlash***!!

Backlash? Naaah. Makes me despair somewhat though. What I see in that clip is:

Laid back cool dancing
Exquisite musicality
Beautiful connection
Inventiveness
Spontanaeity
People who can dance
Real style

I see nothing old-fashioned there at all.
You're going to have to explain the 'nerdy' comment though. I have no clue where you get that from :confused:

Minnie M
10th-August-2006, 08:08 AM
You think? (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=9137969574019234586&q=frida+and+zack)
good lindy looks really fab and really cool :respect: BUT bad lindy or even average lindy looks awkward and geeky !

I happen to think good MJ is just as cool as good Lindy, but that comes with experience and confidence :respect: :worthy:

David Franklin
10th-August-2006, 09:04 AM
Backlash? Naaah. Makes me despair somewhat though. Sorry, I love Kevin St Laurent to bits, but "cool" is not a term that comes to mind when describing him. As dancers we can recognise his talent, but my experience of what "clubbers" consider good dancing teels me that to a person off the street "laid back cool dancing" comes across as "low energy shuffling by people who clearly are too old and unfit to keep up with the music anymore".


I see nothing old-fashioned there at all.

You're going to have to explain the 'nerdy' comment though. I have no clue where you get that from :confused:Bluntly, KsL looks like he's still wearing the same style of clothes he wore at college 20 years ago. Thus old-fashioned and nerdy. (It's also a fairly "classical" Lindy look).

None of which is intended to take away anything from his merits as a dancer, or to imply that he is not someone dancers wouldn't consider cool. But he certainly wouldn't have been my role model when I started dancing.

Dance Demon
10th-August-2006, 09:11 AM
Got to agree with Roger R about the bar issue. Many oganisers have lost venues because of bar takings being poor at MJ nights. Most dancers don't spend a lot of money over the bar, and expect free water . Pubs and clubs depend on bar takings to survive, so they would rather take a booking for a 21st birthday party than a Jive night. I have recently lost a venue because of poor bar take, and my other venue has increased my rent by 100% over a three year period, for the same reason. Hence the reason why Ceroc and other organisations opt for halls where there is no bar, as it removes this issue.

Yogi_Bear
10th-August-2006, 09:15 AM
....... "low energy shuffling by people who clearly are too old and unfit to keep up with the music anymore".

talking about me again, I see :rolleyes:

straycat
10th-August-2006, 09:20 AM
Best way to make a dance "cool" is to have a number 1 hit with the name of the dance in the title of the song, and a sexy video which shows the dance.

Think Lambada. :)

Lambada was cool? Must have missed that bit :rolleyes:

straycat
10th-August-2006, 09:30 AM
Moreso than dated pop (sometimes a feature at ceroc venues :wink:)....

:yeah:

Horrible mental scars still persist from dancing to Roy Orbison medleys.... many years ago *shudder* - although luckily, I doubt anyone's daft enough to play 'em nowadays. :wink:


Average age may be indirectionally proportional to cool factor.
Although it's got to be worth mentioning that the one of the coolest people I've met is a 92 year old lindy hopper :respect: :worthy:

straycat
10th-August-2006, 09:36 AM
good lindy looks really fab and really cool :respect: BUT bad lindy or even average lindy looks awkward and geeky !

Very true. Kinda like MJ, really. Or Salsa. Or Tango. Or [insert name of dance here]. Or Morris dancing (OK - maybe not :devil:)


I happen to think good MJ is just as cool as good Lindy, but that comes with experience and confidence :respect: :worthy:

And especially experience with other dance forms :devil:

Piglet
10th-August-2006, 09:48 AM
Or doesn't it matter as long as we enjoy ourselves?
Most of the clientelle are 30s/40s I think...
If it was considered "cool" how many of the above age group would have gone along? Not sure I would have :confused:

I think it would be great to get an injection of younger dancers though - one of my fav leads at the moment is a beautiful young forumite - she's such a natural at leading and throws herself into it - and to this end I think we have to grab the kids at school... okay so we're looking at it becoming cool in about 10 years time (give or take 5 years if secondary kids get hooked) but I'm guessing that would change the feel of the nights as they are? Or maybe we'll have one night aimed for the cool cats and one for the older dudes...

Who knows? I for one would love to see more people get involved cos its such a great way to spend an evening; the weekend; your life :clap:

Beowulf
10th-August-2006, 09:54 AM
I'm sorry.. i've watched that video and I have to agree.. the guy dancing looks like a right nerd. and trust me it takes one to know one.

He dresses like me .. BAD sign. I'm not cool, have never been cool and never will be cool. That said.. even I wouldn't dance like that it looks.. well.. even too darn geeky for me.

Where's his pocket protector?

I'm sorry to say that CEROC, MJ, Lindy etc aren't percieved by the vast majority to be cool.. but then we the minority who enjoy it, why should we seek validation from those that don't care or don't understand.

We should be what we want to be and not care about what other's think of us. I'm geeky.. I'm uncool.. and I'm proud of it !!

hah.. next you'll be saying Train spotting and stamp collecting aren't COOL either ;)

Piglet
10th-August-2006, 09:57 AM
Where's his pocket protector?
A what? :rofl:

Freya
10th-August-2006, 09:59 AM
Most of the clientelle are 30s/40s I think...
If it was considered "cool" how many of the above age group would have gone along? Not sure I would have :confused:
Very true See here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=259604#post259604)! Not sure if this a true representation though due to it being the "Internet".


I think it would be great to get an injection of younger dancers though - one of my fav leads at the moment is a beautiful young forumite - she's such a natural at leading and throws herself into it Who's this???? :devil:


and to this end I think we have to grab the kids at school... okay so we're looking at it becoming cool in about 10 years time (give or take 5 years if secondary kids get hooked) but I'm guessing that would change the feel of the nights as they are? Or maybe we'll have one night aimed for the cool cats and one for the older dudes... I think your right if we aim things at school kids then you might get more younger people starting at a younger age and pulling the average age down! You'd have to combat the "iccky Girls" "Ewwww Boys" thing tho! :rofl:


Who knows? I for one would love to see more people get involved cos its such a great way to spend an evening; the weekend; your life :clap:Yeah but your addicted like the rest of us!!!!! :wink::wink:

straycat
10th-August-2006, 10:25 AM
I'm sorry.. i've watched that video and I have to agree.. the guy dancing looks like a right nerd. and trust me it takes one to know one.

He dresses like me .. BAD sign. I'm not cool, have never been cool and never will be cool. That said.. even I wouldn't dance like that it looks.. well.. even too darn geeky for me.

Maybe you're cool and just don't know it :wink:
Personally, I would dance like that. If I could. Maybe one day... :worthy:



Where's his pocket protector?

They wouldn't let it through airport security?



I'm sorry to say that CEROC, MJ, Lindy etc aren't percieved by the vast majority to be cool.. but then we the minority who enjoy it, why should we seek validation from those that don't care or don't understand.

No we ain't - partly 'cos very few people know we exist - and we even seem to have fundemental disagreements between ourselves over what is, and isn't cool :devil:
And no, we don't need validation. But as an old and wise person said to a bunch of us recently (this is paraphrased) George Bush wouldn't be focussing so much about invading other countries if he was concentrating on getting his swingout (Lindy turn) right. Translated: the world would be a better place if more people danced. I truly believe that.



We should be what we want to be and not care about what other's think of us. I'm geeky.. I'm uncool.. and I'm proud of it !!

Which is a very cool way to look at it :waycool:




hah.. next you'll be saying Train spotting and stamp collecting aren't COOL either ;)

Hey - if you're into it, it must be good :whistle:

clevedonboy
10th-August-2006, 10:42 AM
I'm sorry to say that CEROC, MJ, Lindy etc aren't percieved by the vast majority to be cool..

I'd disagree completely about Lindy - The majority of places we go people think Lindy is cool. Cerainly when I saw it in the flesh fo the first time, I thougt wow - that's cool, I want to do it.

The only place I've ever heard any "uncool" comments about Lindy is from a few "experienced" MJ dancers.

As for the Hip Hop Lindy guy, I don't like that at all but that could just be his style that bothers me. I'm perfectly happy to have a bash at dancing Lindy to "modern music" - I've danced Lindy to Gabin, Blu Cantrell, Outkast, Big Brovaz, Fatboy Slim and more in the past month or two but I don't change the fundamental nature of the dance - don't bounce, stay grounded. As our Lindy teacher always tells us the point of Lindy is to look cool.

WRT the original question, does it matter if MJ is cool or not. People have fun surely that's enough

bigdjiver
10th-August-2006, 10:53 AM
I did once ask a 20 ish young lady what Ceroc could do to get more youngsters along and she said "Stop the old people going." :-<

Freya
10th-August-2006, 10:55 AM
I did once ask a 20 ish young lady what Ceroc could do to get more youngsters along and she said "Stop the old people going." :-<
Ooooops!!!!

straycat
10th-August-2006, 10:57 AM
I did once ask a 20 ish young lady what Ceroc could do to get more youngsters along and she said "Stop the old people going." :-<

Someone should really remind her of that one when she hits 50.... :devil:

straycat
10th-August-2006, 11:04 AM
The only place I've ever heard any "uncool" comments about Lindy is from a few "experienced" MJ dancers.


Galls me to admit it, but I was one of that mindset for a while, and thought Lindy was awful. :blush: Things change (thank God) - and I hadn't really seen good Lindy at that stage (that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it :innocent: )

Piglet
10th-August-2006, 11:06 AM
Someone should really remind her of that one when she hits 50.... :devil:
You forgotten being young? I don't think I would've been that interested either in my 20s if I knew most of the dancers were way older...

That said, how to make it cool.....

I remember Lisa (I think) saying how her mum came to watch a Musselburgh comp one year and she wasn't impressed by the flashy dancers, rather she was impressed by the dancers that were smiling and looking like they were having so much fun. She said that they were the ones that would more encourage her to take up jive.

So... when we're out busking we need to make sure that we're smiling until the cows come home.

I wanted to get into Ballroom dancing because of a couple I watched in the Blackpool Tower a few years back (they were making mistakes and having such a giggle about it - their smiles were infectious!). Had it not been for them I probably wouldn't have gone because my perceptions were that it was for people probably far older than myself, however, I went, gave it a try and decided against it (because of a comment a guy made, plus my dance partner was much older than me and was having a bit more problem than me picking up the moves - I wasn't picking them up particularly well cos the class had too many beginners and we couldn't see what the heck the teacher's feet were doing).

I came along to ceroc because I wanted to try that and the main difference for me between trying this and ballroom was

1) you don't need a fixed partner :clap:
2) I couldn't stop smiling (well that maybe kicked in after the 2nd or 3rd lesson)
3) the music is usually fab!

These are the points I usually push on a busk - also I prefer to talk to the passers by on a busk to push all the positives rather than stick a flyer in their hand and ignore them.

I'd love for my son and his mates - girls and boys - to come along, but I'm still working on him...

David Franklin
10th-August-2006, 11:34 AM
That said, how to make it cool.....

I remember Lisa (I think) saying how her mum came to watch a Musselburgh comp one year and she wasn't impressed by the flashy dancers, rather she was impressed by the dancers that were smiling and looking like they were having so much fun. She said that they were the ones that would more encourage her to take up jive.The question is, who are you trying to appear cool to? If it's your parents' generation, then Lisa's mum's advice may be relevant. If you're aiming at the younger generation, then I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Sorry. :flower:

Twirly
10th-August-2006, 11:35 AM
I'm sorry to say that CEROC, MJ, Lindy etc aren't percieved by the vast majority to be cool.. but then we the minority who enjoy it, why should we seek validation from those that don't care or don't understand.

We should be what we want to be and not care about what other's think of us. I'm geeky.. I'm uncool.. and I'm proud of it !!

I totally agree with Beo here.

I like dancing because it’s fun. I’m not so sure that being “cool” and having fun actually go together. Also, what is considered to be cool is often a matter of fashion, and fashion changes far too quickly. Do we really want Ceroc to be continually reinventing itself to keep up with current trends? And it’s so damned shallow! Those trends are often age-specific anyway.


I did once ask a 20 ish young lady what Ceroc could do to get more youngsters along and she said "Stop the old people going." :-<

And a teenager would probably have different ideas about what would make it cool (stop all those ancient 25 year olds doing it probably!).

I like Ceroc because it is inclusive – I see it as one of it’s strengths. On the whole it doesn’t matter what age you are or what you look like, you can have a go. This is likely to mean that it can never be “cool”.

Maybe we should ask what benefits could be obtained by it being considered by the wider public as “cool”? Presumably it’s in part to boost egos (“if Ceroc is cool, people who do Ceroc must be cool”) and to get more new blood in. I’d say forget about the first part and concentrate on the second part – since you’ll probably only be “cool” for five minutes anyway.

Juju
10th-August-2006, 11:45 AM
And let's face it, outside big cities, the average age of the punters goes up and the average height, attractiveness and dancing ability goes down.

Oi! :mad:


The more I think about it the more desperately uncool Ceroc seems. I think a lot of the problem is the age thing, also the divorced-thirty-something-on-the-pull thing, plus the venues, the name(s), the emphasis on beginners' moves in lessons....

Perhaps the way forward is to accept that naffness, embrace it, celebrate it even. Have C&W nights. Busk at the local bingo halls. Go the whole hog and lay on tea and mini rolls for the punters. It could be The Next Big Thing for the naff set. Uncool people need a life too!

:waycool:

marty_baby
10th-August-2006, 12:29 PM
Good discussion thread.
But guys, I think we are missing the point here.


What is the biggest way to be "uncool"?..... It has got to be when trying too hard - to look "cool"


MJ is a brillaint open ended dance - catering for all skill levels - everyone can have fun on a dance night, to their repective skill levels, with the correct frame of mind.


The Ceroc format is brilliant for bringing this to the masses. However, by its very "inclusive" nature - is not a exclusively cool niche.



So what? Who gives a stuff what non MJ'vers think? Just turn up to a MJ Dance - and just be yourself - and most importantly - have a good dance! :na:



Cheers
Martin

David Bailey
10th-August-2006, 12:38 PM
Maybe we should ask what benefits could be obtained by it being considered by the wider public as “cool”?
OK, I'll bite.

For Ceroc / MJ organisers:

Higher and better public profile - i.e. more marketing opportunities
Appealing to a wider demographic - more diverse, more cosmopolitan and maybe younger
More opportunities for marketing related products - e.g. "Now that's What I Call A Ceroc Classic vol. 64"


All of which can be summarised as "More money", of course :)

For me personally, there'd be less explanations needed of what this tyhing actually is at parties (not that I ever get invited anywhere, being so un-cool, I'm talking hypotheticals here of course).

And to boost my ego, of course.

mikeyr
10th-August-2006, 12:56 PM
You think? (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=9137969574019234586&q=frida+and+zack)

I think it looks cool.

I personally like to dance cos I like to dance, I dont really care what the of the world thinks.

Twirly
10th-August-2006, 12:58 PM
Appealing to a wider demographic - more diverse, more cosmopolitan and maybe younger

erm, doesn't it seem from discussion above that widening the demographic and being cool are mutually exclusive?! I think that Ceroc/MJ has a pretty wide demographic as it is. What you really mean is to get younger people in, which won't happen when the older people are there, generally speaking. So do we have a "Logan's Run" situation when we all get chucked out at 25/35/45*?

Or maybe we can have Ceroc and Oldies Ceroc for all those over 25/35/45*?

*delete as appropriate

You can get plenty more people in by selling it on it's fun and inclusive nature. They may not all be nubile youngsters however. DJ - why this obsession with youth?

David Franklin
10th-August-2006, 01:04 PM
erm, doesn't it seem from discussion above that widening the demographic and being cool are mutually exclusive?! I think that Ceroc/MJ has a pretty wide demographic as it is. What you really mean is to get younger people in, which won't happen when the older people are there, generally speaking. So do we have a "Logan's Run" situation when we all get chucked out at 25/35/45*?:yeah: Specifically, I suspect a lot of younger women really really wouldn't want to dance with people their parents age.

As far as the financial side of things goes, the "typical" London Cerocer seems to be professional, single, with relatively high disposable income. Seems to me there should be a way to make money out of people like that...

[Of course, they also seem to object paying over the odds for tepid tap water. Go figure...]

Yogi_Bear
10th-August-2006, 01:10 PM
:yeah: Specifically, I suspect a lot of younger women really really wouldn't want to dance with people their parents age............................

This is obviously where I am going wrong, asking people young enough to be my daughter to dance.
I really must make a substantive contribution to this thread once I've nipped out to collect my pension :rolleyes:

Freya
10th-August-2006, 01:14 PM
:yeah: Specifically, I suspect a lot of younger women really really wouldn't want to dance with people their parents age.
:yeah: have to agree! although there are a couple of really nice dancers who are older than my parents! However there is a few men who really make me cringe!


As far as the financial side of things goes, the "typical" London Cerocer seems to be professional, single, with relatively high disposable income. Seems to me there should be a way to make money out of people like that... Ceroc does get awfully expensive! Especially for us poor students with no or very little income! But then I'm probably not your Typical Cerocer!

straycat
10th-August-2006, 01:31 PM
:yeah: Specifically, I suspect a lot of younger women really really wouldn't want to dance with people their parents age.


There're ways around that though.

Being famous help (saw Clive James down the 100 club a few times, and he didn't lack for dances, even though he looked a bit infirm, and was not much of a dancer)

Being famous, well liked, over ninety and a great dancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Manning) appears to be a huge plus...

Lynn
10th-August-2006, 01:38 PM
But what I want is to be able to tell people what I do in MJ without launching into a 5-minute explanation, and then finally giving up and saying "Look, it's a bit like salsa, OK?" at the end. (c. Gus, a while back) And did we get an answer then? (Genuine question, I can#t remember).


What I want is for the dancing to be respected, for the dance form to progress, and for it to become more acceptable and seen as less of a "Oldest Swinger In Town" outing ( :eek: ) Not sure that this and the 'easy to learn, dance for everyone' concept are compatible without creating multi-level dances.

And I want a hard-boiled egg.When the revolution comes...

Adrian (DJ)
10th-August-2006, 01:42 PM
How to make Ceroc "Cool":

Out:

- chart music
- water
- trailer-trash blues
- embarrassing requests
- trouser braces

In:

- house, broken beat and soul
- cocktails & champagne
- real blues music (hint: the artist shouldn't be called Billy Bob Ray...blah blah blah)
- request an obscure song that the DJ has to go home and research, which he then plays the next week, and the week after, and the week after that, etc.
- belts?

(Forum Misunderstanding Disclaimer: THIS IS TONGUE-IN-CHEEK!)

David Franklin
10th-August-2006, 01:54 PM
There're ways around that though.

Being famous help (saw Clive James down the 100 club a few times, and he didn't lack for dances, even though he looked a bit infirm, and was not much of a dancer)

Being famous, well liked, over ninety and a great dancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Manning) appears to be a huge plus...Of course, it doesn't have to be fame. As Mrs Merton put it:

So what first attracted you to short, balding millionaire Paul Daniels?
Sadly, I do not believe either of these strategies generalises well...

straycat
10th-August-2006, 02:05 PM
Of course, it doesn't have to be fame. As Mrs Merton put it:

I know. Loved that one :) :rofl:



Sadly, I do not believe either of these strategies generalises well...

Probably not, but I was just trying to give you a little hope for your approaching old age :devil:

Twirly
10th-August-2006, 02:19 PM
Of course, it doesn't have to be fame. As Mrs Merton put it:


So what first attracted you to short, balding millionaire Paul Daniels?
Sadly, I do not believe either of these strategies generalises well...

K, so what is it with Paul Daniels and this website today? He's also on the "Bah Humbug" Thread. This is one way to ensure that Ceroc stays uncool! :rofl:

Piglet
10th-August-2006, 02:20 PM
K, so what is it with Paul Daniels and this website today?

C'mon Twirly, we all know you really like him - not a lot, but you like him :rofl:

Twirly
10th-August-2006, 02:26 PM
C'mon Twirly, we all know you really like him - not a lot, but you like him :rofl:

Yeah, I've always been into older men, and that toupe, just irresistable...:drool: :rofl:

David Bailey
10th-August-2006, 02:36 PM
erm, doesn't it seem from discussion above that widening the demographic and being cool are mutually exclusive?!
Nope - I think both salsa and AT are both "cool" and both "inclusive". Ceroc / MJ isn't.


You can get plenty more people in by selling it on it's fun and inclusive nature. They may not all be nubile youngsters however. DJ - why this obsession with youth?
I need to recapture mine, it keeps on running away from me... :sad:

LMC
10th-August-2006, 02:38 PM
Oooh, I just fancy a nice rant....



And let's face it, outside big cities, the average age of the punters goes up and the average height, attractiveness and dancing ability goes down.Oi! :mad:
I refer everyone who has taken exception to the above huge generalisation to the word "average" in my post (bolded this time). Of course, any forumite who dances in these venues is not average. Except me, I'm your average divorced 30-something* who *does* dance outside London as well as in it, and happens to prefer, in general to dance with people who have most in common with me. Which means that I know them - from the forum, or even just from a few words exchanged in a lesson. Or, if completely unknown, they are probably not old enough to be my father or young enough to be my child (and how depressing is it that there are adults who are old enough to be my child these days :( ) and whose eyes are at least on a level with my chin rather than my chest.

*not on the pull tho' :eek:

I was talking to Jammy (yep, I'll quite happily name and shame) at Southport (generally accepted as a high quality dance experience), and he commented regretfully that attractive (to him) young women seemed to be thin on the ground. Did that stop him dancing and socialising with those of us old enough to be his mother? NO. Nor does it stop any of the rest of us enjoying dancing with people who superficially resemble us in exactly no way whatsoever, except that they dance.

It's well established that absolutely on the forum is completely unbiassed, unprejudiced, and never allows their emotions to cloud their judgement. (Adrian style FMD: that was sarcastic). That's why so many people will drive over two hours/80 miles to dance in a city rather than in their provincial venues. Including me.

Reality check people. Dancing involves closer physical contact with unknown people than most non-dancers are used to or are comfortable with. It can and should also capture a strong emotional response. This means that it is perfectly natural for "prejudice" to creep in - not logical or fair, but natural.

Unfortunately, most of the articles I have seen about Ceroc seem to emphasise the "It's not a singles club" to the extent that it leads to conveying the exact opposite impression. The marketing - "you don't need to come with a partner" adds to that.

So, your average 20-something who has never done any form of partner dancing ventures on their own into their local provincial venue and sees that a good 50% of those attending appear to be at least 20 years older... and decides to check out salsa next week instead.


[Of course, they also seem to object paying over the odds for tepid tap water. Go figure...]
I'm sure someone more mathematical and witty than me can come up with a cost/value equation....

Twirly
10th-August-2006, 02:50 PM
Nope - I think both salsa and AT are both "cool" and both "inclusive". Ceroc / MJ isn't.

Not quoting from my experience here, but of a friend who prefers to do Ceroc because she found salsa clubs to be both sleazy and extremely unfriendly/snobby - she got totally ignored in clubs as she hadn't proved herself. So I'd question that point about salsa - it's also so common for people to have done it that I hardly think it's "cool". Surely one thing that defines "cool" is a certain degree of exculsivity? In which case, maybe Ceroc is doing fine as it is.


I need to recapture mine, it keeps on running away from me... :sad: :rofl:

quiet_flame
10th-August-2006, 03:05 PM
:yeah: Specifically, I suspect a lot of younger women really really wouldn't want to dance with people their parents age.
You know it's not just the women, I've known a lot of Young Men to leave and never return because of the lack of young pretty things to dance with.:sick:
Luckily I was never one of them:D

Okay, also time for me to add my two pence worth (hey I can let go of the decimal system for the sake of language)

Modern Jive or Ceroc... or what ever you want to call it, will always have some difficulty in appearing "cool" to people my age and younger...
(BTW I was Born in 84... I''m getting old too :tears:)
There's a few reasons.

a) it's not on video clips of the latest pop artist :P
b) you have to get UC & P with someone of the opposite sex, without many drinks to build up the dutch courage, what's more, they can see what you look like, because you're in a class so the lights are up. :eek:
c) The way I see it, partner dancing isn't in built into western culture anymore. Many people don't go to dance clubs, where people exclusively dance with another partner around the room, what do they do?
They get tanked with a few mates, pretend to do some dance moves and take the person of the other gender, who is also tanked out of the pub/club/whatever to have "coffee" at their place. In MJ/Ceroc terms... think of the scandal!
d) you old farts are there. (p.s. doesn't stop me dancing with you... I just don't get to dance with people my age much... in fact.. to be honest I prefer dancing with the experienced ladies... rather than people my age who more often than not have no clue. :(

Beowulf
10th-August-2006, 03:33 PM
Well I think I should be rewarded by Franck & co for making Ceroc that little bit cooler ..

.. I stopped going for one thing ! Coolness quotient instantly increased ;)

ducasi
10th-August-2006, 03:37 PM
I refer everyone who has taken exception to the above huge generalisation to the word "average" in my post (bolded this time).
The question is, is your statement true, and (side issue, why do you think that is?)

ducasi
10th-August-2006, 03:41 PM
Nope - I think both salsa and AT are both "cool" and both "inclusive". Ceroc / MJ isn't.
I can't help thinking of "Take the Lead" and the Tango dance in that.

D'you think it would have the same impact if they had done any form of swing or jive?

Tango (and Salsa) have a "sexy" reputation. Perhaps the question DJ should have asked at the top of this thread is How can Ceroc be made (in the eyes of the public) sexy?

Freya
10th-August-2006, 03:49 PM
Modern Jive or Ceroc... or what ever you want to call it, will always have some difficulty in appearing "cool" to people my age and younger...
(BTW I was Born in 84... I''m getting old too :tears:)
Oh dear I'm old too then! :tears: :tears: And here I thought I was one of the Young 'uns!


need to recapture mine, it keeps on running away from me...
Better go in search of my youth too!

Freya
10th-August-2006, 03:53 PM
Tango (and Salsa) have a "sexy" reputation. Perhaps the question DJ should have asked at the top of this thread is How can Ceroc be made (in the eyes of the public) sexy?
Ducasi Fraid to say till we have Antonio Banderas look alikes doing MJ in movies, MJ will never be Sexy in the eyes of the Public!

Blues can look sexy! But is blues actually MJ or another dance form entirely?

Twirly
10th-August-2006, 03:55 PM
Tango (and Salsa) have a "sexy" reputation. Perhaps the question DJ should have asked at the top of this thread is How can Ceroc be made (in the eyes of the public) sexy?

No that I'm all in favour of - making Ceroc sexy(ier)! :wink:

Juju
10th-August-2006, 04:00 PM
Oooh, I just fancy a nice rant....


And let's face it, outside big cities, the average age of the punters goes up and the average height, attractiveness and dancing ability goes down.
Oi! :mad:


Maybe I should have used a :wink: ?

David Franklin
10th-August-2006, 04:08 PM
I can't help thinking of "Take the Lead" and the Tango dance in that.

D'you think it would have the same impact if they had done any form of swing or jive?Viktor, Mick, Lydia - double trouble, first Ceroc Champs (1999). End of discussion IMHO...

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
10th-August-2006, 04:23 PM
How does Ceroc Scotland manage to hold (at least) two of its class nights in clubs then?

At Jumpin' Jack's in Glasgow most people don't drink booze, there's free water, a couple of sofas, but mainly stools, no carpet anywhere once you're inside, and a large wooden dance-floor.

In Aberdeen it's the same.

OK, maybe JJ's is not your average club, but suitable venues do exist in some places it seems.
Aberdeen has two of it's regular class nights in JJ's! IT's a nice big dance floor and their is a bit more of a party atmosphere!

Gotta say though I first got dragged along to LeRoc in Glasgow and when I got back to Aberdeen one thing that put me off Ceroc was that It was in JJ's - It just ain't "Cool". That and I thought they were completely different things! How Dense was I?

Ok, first of all in my opinion JJ's is definately not a cool club, I think it's a pretty crap nightclub (if you can even call it that), for a start it's too small, but for Ceroc it's just the right size. Now, I don't think any of my friends think Ceroc is cool, only one of them has started going along each week. The others think it is naff and full of old men. If I tell people about Ceroc, after explaining what it is I either get one of two responces. 1.) Wow that sounds really cool, i've always wanted to try something like that but I don't like going on my own. 2.) Oh, that's nice for you, you must really enjoy that. Number 2 is non cool vibes, and yes, I believe that it is the name that puts people off. Ceroc doesn't sound as cool or sexy as Salsa, or really explain what the dance is as it's a brand and doesn't explain the style.

straycat
10th-August-2006, 04:27 PM
Viktor, Mick, Lydia - double trouble, first Ceroc Champs (1999). End of discussion IMHO...

Not quite - could you explain that for the hard of understanding?

DavidB
10th-August-2006, 04:34 PM
If Ceroc isn't a sexy name, but Salsa is, then maybe we need to pick another tomato-based sauce for a name.

So how about 'Ketchup' ???

latinlover
10th-August-2006, 04:39 PM
Not quoting from my experience here, but of a friend who prefers to do Ceroc because she found salsa clubs to be both sleazy and extremely unfriendly/snobby - she got totally ignored in clubs as she hadn't proved herself. So I'd question that point about salsa - it's also so common for people to have done it that I hardly think it's "cool". Surely one thing that defines "cool" is a certain degree of exculsivity? In which case, maybe Ceroc is doing fine as it is.

:rofl:

:yeah:
I quite agree, and I have found both Salsa and AT dancers to be snooty towards beginners.

Personally I think the need to be seen to be cool instantly disqualifies one from ever attaining true coolness

True cool is un-selfconscious

and who really cares anyway?

The best way to make something desirable is to keep it a secret and pretend you don't want anyone else to share it.

Or make it really expensive, but let's not go there!

:waycool: So who needs to be cool?:waycool:

LemonCake
10th-August-2006, 04:43 PM
(And Jazz is only cool to people who think that Jazz is cool. :cool:)

:yeah:

David Franklin
10th-August-2006, 04:46 PM
Not quite - could you explain that for the hard of understanding?Viktor Andeke, Mick Wenger and Lydia Maurer competed in double trouble at the Ceroc Champs in '99; to my eyes their performance had similar impact to the "Double Tango" in Take the Lead. (A couple of years ago Mick told me he still regards it as his best dance performance ever). Of course, they did an unchoreographed dance, not particularly intended to be raunchy, and without the benefit of MTV-type editing, so in a like-for-like comparison, I'm in no doubt they could have eclipsed the Take the Lead number.


If Ceroc isn't a sexy name, but Salsa is, then maybe we need to pick another tomato-based sauce for a name.

So how about 'Ketchup' ???Well, at least that way there's a suitable (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/18/earlyshow/leisure/music/main526093.shtml) song just waiting for us...

Personally, I'm holding out for Lager (plus ca change...)

straycat
10th-August-2006, 04:52 PM
If Ceroc isn't a sexy name, but Salsa is, then maybe we need to pick another tomato-based sauce for a name.

So how about 'Ketchup' ???

Been done. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Ketchup) Wasn't sexy. Maybe it's the spices, rather than the tomato. How about 'Chilli'?

straycat
10th-August-2006, 04:58 PM
Viktor Andeke, Mick Wenger and Lydia Maurer competed in double trouble at the Ceroc Champs in '99; to my eyes their performance had similar impact to the "Double Tango" in Take the Lead. (A couple of years ago Mick told me he still regards it as his best dance performance ever). Of course, they did an unchoreographed dance, not particularly intended to be raunchy, and without the benefit of MTV-type editing, so in a like-for-like comparison, I'm in no doubt they could have eclipsed the Take the Lead number.


Ta for that. Sounds like it was something to see (don't know Mick, but Viktor's obviously incredible, and Lydia, iirc, tended to be sex on legs)

Is Lydia still moving in MJ circles these days, or did she stop post-Viktor?

clevedonboy
10th-August-2006, 04:58 PM
Guacamole anyone?

Beowulf
10th-August-2006, 05:02 PM
Guacamole anyone?

green and gloopy? no thanks !! How about Tabasco or Harissa? both hot and spicy !! :wink:

David Franklin
10th-August-2006, 05:04 PM
Is Lydia still moving in MJ circles these days, or did she stop post-Viktor?I believe Lydia has abandoned MJ for the world of Salsa. Which is kind of interesting, in view of this discussion...

ducasi
10th-August-2006, 05:21 PM
Viktor Andeke, Mick Wenger and Lydia Maurer competed in double trouble at the Ceroc Champs in '99; to my eyes their performance had similar impact to the "Double Tango" in Take the Lead.
Wasn't the double tango I was thinking of, it was the one with Antonio Banderas and the bitchy posh girl from his dance school.

As I haven't seen the performance that you're talking of, I can't really comment on how it would compare in my mind.

LemonCake
10th-August-2006, 05:24 PM
Hmm, interesting stuff on here.

Why do we need to make it cool? We all enjoy Ceroc just because it is what it is - Why not work on opening up the horizons of our friends/relatives/colleagues/acquaintances so that they learn to appreciate something outside the narrow confines of what is packaged & marketed to coolness? Why try to squeeze Ceroc to fit the mould, why not break the mould and make people think for themselves?

I freely admit to being not cool. I wear clothes I like and (I hope) that suit me, not the height of fashion. I knit. I bake. I love Scrabble whenever I can persuade someone to play against me and I'm open to offers from anyone who wants to give me a refresher course in backgammon. I don't like clubbing and I can't stand people who get drunk to the point of revolting behaviour in the name of 'fun'. I don't need Ceroc to be cool to enjoy it. (aside - is it possible for an activity where you get hot, out of breath and generally dishevelled to be cool? :whistle: :wink: :innocent: )

I first tried Ceroc at 18 and loved it, regardless of age of partners available. It took a few years for me to be able to go regularly - largely because Oxford doesn't (or didn't) have a class I could get to on public transport. (can anyone tell me if that's changed?). Now I'm a junior member of Ceroc-addicts-not-so-anonymous (I haven't been to a weekender yet!) I encourage as many people as I can to come along and try it - some love it, some don't. I tried Salsa and was left pretty cold, so I realise Ceroc may not be for everyone, but I do nudge, badger, cajole, arm-twist if necessary until friends can categorically say they've tried it and don't like it.

So Jumpin Jaks is a dive but does it matter? We're there for our own benefit and the atmosphere we create. I love the mix of ages and backgrounds of people. Fab dancers can be any age - one of my all-time favourite dance partners is probably my Dad's age or more, but on the other hand Jammy is great tho I feel old in comparison :o

Oh and finally, it has just occurred to me (rereading point about partner dancing not being in the culture) that when Pretzelmeister & I went out a few weeks ago and danced purely for our own enjoyment in Frankensteins in Glasgow (a dead-standard Friday night pub with small amount of dancefloor space) we had plenty of attention and even a round of applause! Every time I went to the toilets every girl at the washbasins would ooh and aaah over the dancing - were we professional (that had me :rofl: ), where did we learn, we looked amazing, they wished they could do it, etc. etc. They thought it was cool!! I certainly did my bit for word-of-mouth advertising that evening! (PS Franck - could we have credit-card-sized advertising to hand out in situations like that so that people might remember to look at the website or come along when they find it in their coat/purse the next day?)


That's probably enough from me :rolleyes:

David Franklin
10th-August-2006, 05:36 PM
Wasn't the double tango I was thinking of, it was the one with Antonio Banderas and the bitchy posh girl from his dance school.Sorry, the "two men" scene is the one everyone seems to go on about.

Having found the scene you're describing, I don't think it lives up to some of the hotter WCS routines I've seen - see if you can find some of the routines by Jason Colacino and Katie Boyle. :drool:

David Bailey
10th-August-2006, 06:14 PM
There's a few reasons.

a) it's not on video clips of the latest pop artist :P
Good point.


b) you have to get UC & P with someone of the opposite sex, without many drinks to build up the dutch courage, what's more, they can see what you look like, because you're in a class so the lights are up. :eek:
Hmmm, that (and other reasons) pretty much apply to all partner dances tho - and doesn't explain why salsa is inherently more cool than MJ/Ceroc.

(FWIW, I totally agree about the attitude in Western culture to partner dancing, bloody disco's got a lot to answer for - but my question was not "Why isn't partner dancing cool" :) )

I didn't really want this thread to become a "Age" topic. But, there's no real reason why Ceroc shouldn't be promoted to youth (children included), as:
- it's easy
- it's standardised
- it's something you can dance to pop tracks

So it should be ideal for young people, to introduce them to partner dancing if nothing else - certainly the learning curve in almost any other partner dance is much steeper.

When I started Ceroc, I was in my early 20s (and yes, that scares me now), but I don't think I was excessively young at that point. Has that changed a lot?

David Bailey
10th-August-2006, 06:19 PM
I quite agree, and I have found both Salsa and AT dancers to be snooty towards beginners.
Oh yes - Ceroc is by far the friendliest partner dance culture, once you're in it. And it is all the richer for it, in my opinion. But that's a slightly different question.

The fact is that, to the outside world, and even to other partner-dancers, what we do is not recognised at a "proper" dance.

(And can I just say that "Cool" was my shorthand for "recognisable and respectable", but if I put that in the thread title, it'd be, errr, uncool.)


The best way to make something desirable is to keep it a secret and pretend you don't want anyone else to share it.
Yeah... I think there's a bit more to marketing than that somehow... :na:

Andreas
10th-August-2006, 07:35 PM
In my opinion it is all in the music. Other dances are 'cool' because they are being identified by a certain genre of music or they identify themselves by catering for exactly that style. Ceroc suffers in this case from the 'we can dance to all types' feature. It has no real roots. It is a jack of all trades and master of none. Hence the rise and fall of the 'coolness factor' of Ceroc will pretty much depend entirely on the dancers that are being watched by the audience. To such an extent this is not the case with other dance styles.

The next thing is that Ceroc is actually a 'club dance'. Due to its versatility it is predestined to be danced at clubs. But at your ordinary club you will hardly find a crowd all of which share the same enthusiasm for dance or for Ceroc for that matter. If you go to a Salsa club the majority of people are in sync, same with Tango.

And back to the music, people either like or dislike a certain style/type of music. If they really like it then they will like pretty much all the dancing that is built around it. So dancing styles like Tango with its passion or Salsa with its fire are cool when you enjoy the music and people will express that. The closest dance to Ceroc/MJ is Swing of sorts. Swing/Jazz is great but has a smaller following around the world than latin american tunes and dances do. And with its inconsistency or lack of identity it has no real target group to bring it up to the 'cool' status.


Also, Ceroc is being advertised as the easiest dance in the world. While I would contest this and say Merengue is easier, neither of those two styles are considered 'cool'. Perhaps it also lies in the fact that, no matter how badly, people want to be associated with a dance that is not 'the easiest dance in the world'. Vanity does have great influence on people's decisions, you know. ;)

clevedonboy
10th-August-2006, 07:49 PM
And back to the music, people either like or dislike a certain style/type of music. If they really like it then they will like pretty much all the dancing that is built around it. So dancing styles like Tango with its passion or Salsa with its fire are cool when you enjoy the music and people will express that. The closest dance to Ceroc/MJ is Swing of sorts. Swing/Jazz is great but has a smaller following around the world than latin american tunes and dances do. And with its inconsistency or lack of identity it has no real target group to bring it up to the 'cool' status.




But swing was the biggest dance music craze ever - The swing era spans 1933 to 1948 (woolly around the edges of those dates) - for 15+ years there was simply no other dance form that people really cared about.

Today there are still many people who are passionate about the music - the bad news is that they're old or they dance Lindy!

Your points about the lack of musical focus for MJ is well made though - it's lack of a musical focus is perhaps it's greatest strength but is a weakness when trying to explain what "it's for"

Yogi_Bear
10th-August-2006, 08:53 PM
In my opinion it is all in the music. Other dances are 'cool' because they are being identified by a certain genre of music or they identify themselves by catering for exactly that style. Ceroc suffers in this case from the 'we can dance to all types' feature. It has no real roots. It is a jack of all trades and master of none. Hence the rise and fall of the 'coolness factor' of Ceroc will pretty much depend entirely on the dancers that are being watched by the audience. To such an extent this is not the case with other dance styles.

The next thing is that Ceroc is actually a 'club dance'. Due to its versatility it is predestined to be danced at clubs. But at your ordinary club you will hardly find a crowd all of which share the same enthusiasm for dance or for Ceroc for that matter. If you go to a Salsa club the majority of people are in sync, same with Tango.

And back to the music, people either like or dislike a certain style/type of music. If they really like it then they will like pretty much all the dancing that is built around it. So dancing styles like Tango with its passion or Salsa with its fire are cool when you enjoy the music and people will express that. The closest dance to Ceroc/MJ is Swing of sorts. Swing/Jazz is great but has a smaller following around the world than latin american tunes and dances do. And with its inconsistency or lack of identity it has no real target group to bring it up to the 'cool' status.


Also, Ceroc is being advertised as the easiest dance in the world. While I would contest this and say Merengue is easier, neither of those two styles are considered 'cool'. Perhaps it also lies in the fact that, no matter how badly, people want to be associated with a dance that is not 'the easiest dance in the world'. Vanity does have great influence on people's decisions, you know. ;)

These points are well made and I would agree strongly with pretty well all of them.
Can Ceroc by definition ever be cool, and should it want to be?
If we definine 'cool' as the opposite of 'square' - and I can't think of a better one at the moment - Ceroc isn't cool. Until you start to see a significant proportion of music videos featuring Ceroc as opposed to hip hop, street dance, Salsa or whatever then it won't be. That is not to say it doesn't have a hugely successful business model, offer a fun and sociable evening out, get more people into partner dancing, and so forth. By making itself accessible, bringing dancing to all, taking steps from a multitude of styles, having no single related musical genre and historical background......it faces an uphill battle if it wants to portray itself as cool. I don't think it has anything to gain by setting coolness as a target.
Ian

Lindsay
10th-August-2006, 09:04 PM
:yeah:

Although it's got to be worth mentioning that the one of the coolest people I've met is a 92 year old lindy hopper :respect: :worthy:
Would that be Mr Manning? Now he is the coolest. Here he is in 1941 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY&mode=related&search=

Lindsay
10th-August-2006, 09:06 PM
West Coast Swing is cool :waycool:

Freya
10th-August-2006, 09:12 PM
Would that be Mr Manning? Now he is the coolest. Here he is in 1941 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY&mode=related&search=
Wow!!!! That was quite spectacular! Now I want to try that! Really would get rid of some of my excess Energy!

David Franklin
10th-August-2006, 09:21 PM
(And can I just say that "Cool" was my shorthand for "recognisable and respectable", but if I put that in the thread title, it'd be, errr, uncool.)You know, I'm not really sure "respectable" and "cool" belong in the same sentence...

That's not just idle pedantry - because I think one of the great strengths of Ceroc is it's respectability (in the mainstream sense). Ceroc is not a pickup joint, and you can ask anyone to dance without there being a subtext that "dance == horizontal mambo". When people start saying "it needs to be cool, it needs to be in a nightclub", my feeling is you'll end up with a "nightclub vibe". In other words: everyone's assumed to be out on the pull, so you don't ask someone to dance unless you fancy them, etc. I think it would kill what makes Ceroc so successful. So on that level, I don't want Ceroc to be "cool".

But on the other hand, I agree with you that it's a pity Ceroc doesn't have the name recognition amongst non-dancers that Salsa does. The problem is, Salsa has already "won" that battle. If you did get Cerocers on music videos, everyone would just assume they were doing Salsa anyhow. Of course, it's not just Ceroc that suffers this - the same would go for Hustle, Merengue, Lambada or even Cha-Cha. Heck, I suspect most people would confuse Tango with Salsa!

Gadget
10th-August-2006, 10:10 PM
Depends on definitions:
I think on "cool" as making things that are really complex look simple. I think that a human judging distance, timeing and movement to match a person or object's motion in space is very cool, especilly when it ties in with the first and is done in an off-hand way. :waycool: So yes, I think Ceroc can be cool. As I think any dance can be cool.
I think that "popular" or "desirable" are often mistaken for "cool" and an easy way to boost this is to get celebrities involved. They hold a lot of "peer pressure" sway with the demographic that actualy care to think on themselves as "cool".

Night club? I think it's a good choice; it has three things that I would say are ideal for a venue: a dance floor, a bar, a sound system. Any organiser loking at a venue that lacks one of these elements would have to factor in the cost of supplying it themselves. The only problem is one of £££.

Watching dance on TV or in films; It's all just dancing - the show case stuff could be from any dance form; it's only the music that lets you know its roots. Hear latin music and it must be tango or salsa. Hear faster "rock/pop" and it's rock & roll or lindy. etc.
I see this as more of an opportunity than a dissadvantage: want to dance like that? Sure - put on that sort of music, dance MJ and add a twist of X. Simple.

bigdjiver
11th-August-2006, 12:53 AM
I doubt that Ceroc can ever become truly "cool", but it can easily be seen as the doorway to coolness. Anything that creates a "wow" factor has to have a certain amout of "cool". I would set about the task by bringing back the Robert Austin definition of "Modern Jive", which included all of the swing dances, rock'n'roll and ballroom jive. Le Jive and Ceroc could therefore be considered to be teaching just a limited adapted subset of those dances. If Ceroc does that the the Ceroc championships could be extended to two days, or a three day weekender, and have competitive categories where Lindy, Ballroom and WCS dancers could compete. The Ceroc championships could thus take on a similar aspect to a commercial sponsorship of a sporting event, probably with a commercial co-sponsor. Easyjet or Orange or someone with a health image to project would be prospects. I would try to get commercial sponsorships for some of the bigger prizes.
The bigger money on offer would bring in the best, and the best pushing the limits at that. That should attract TV. Ceroc would acquire coolness by association. Hopefully the message would come across that Ceroc may be tame compared to most of the other stuff in full competitive mode, but it was the first step to learning to jive and one way in. Most of the audience will just remember various wow moments and that this ceroc thing had something to do with them, and that there were lots of people like them in the lesser competitions.

It all remains simple, until you try to do it ...
This approach gives plenty of scope for importing celebs and for discourses on the history of the jive dances.

Yogi_Bear
11th-August-2006, 08:18 AM
When you see young people in the street saying things to each other like "Show me that first move push spin again, would you?" then Ceroc will indeed have attained a state of coolness......

David Franklin
11th-August-2006, 08:57 AM
I would set about the task by bringing back the Robert Austin definition of "Modern Jive", which included all of the swing dances, rock'n'roll and ballroom jive. Problem is, "Modern Jive" would win the prize for "worst dance name ever" if Morris Dancing hadn't already sown up the title.



So what kind of dancing do you do?
Modern Jive

So is that like hand jive?
No. It's more like ballroom jive or rock and roll.

So do you do lots of flashy kicky footwork like I see on SCD?
No. Actually we don't really worry about footwork in modern jive.

But you do all the cool flips and stuff from rock and roll?
Er... no.

But even if you don't do that cool stuff, at least it's modern, and trendy, right?
Yes that's right. It's only been going since the early 80s. You remember the 80's, don't you?

Actually I was still in nappies then. Does that mean you have to wear platform shoes to get in?

:tears: :tears: :tears:

bigdjiver
11th-August-2006, 09:58 AM
It should be said that ceroc have taken its first baby steps towards being "the door to coolness" in dance by moving into weekenders. The missing ingredient is the public awareness. It should also be said that Ceroc is not ready for coolness. If I am right and the epidemic model applies we are in the condition that for every 100 people who contract "Ceroc" after several weeks there are less than 100 people still affected by the "condition" that were infected from that population. i.e a lot "got better" (learned to dance) and the number they infected has not made up for the loss. If we add just a small piece of "cool" the population becomes more susceptible, and the growth becomes exponential, or greater. I did not use the word "Avalanche" lightly. If this happens the organisation has to be capable of exponential growth, and it has the wrong business model for that. What is needed to cope with that possibility is an MLM model, where franchisees have sub-franchisees. To be specific it should be possible to franchise down to the level of a 1-4 venues under the control of a venue manager. The CTA should be teaching teachers to teach teachers. Frachisees should be training franchisees. The glue that would be needed to hold this all together would have to be intellectual property. The"Ceroc" name itself (or whoever else siezes the opportunity), and the management system, (How to run a dance class venue for dum... oops, no dancers). This is why I have advocated Ceroc owning its own management software, which should be of the highest standard. The help file for that should be a manual of how to administer a dance venue. I worked for an airline ticket franchise organisation which supplied complete PC systems, training and backup as part of the deal. It made it so much harder for a franchisee to go independent. The other piece of the glue is central purchasing of common supplies, such as advertising materials, DJ equipment etc. and common marketing information. (data mining).

Paul F
11th-August-2006, 10:02 AM
Frachisees should be training franchisees. The glue that would be needed to hold this all together would have to be intellectual property.

Slightly off topic but I have always wondered what Ceroc would be like as a centrally managed business and not a franchised one. Im sure there are technical terms for this :grin:

Twirly
11th-August-2006, 10:09 AM
I didn't really want this thread to become a "Age" topic. But, there's no real reason why Ceroc shouldn't be promoted to youth (children included), as:
- it's easy
- it's standardised
- it's something you can dance to pop tracks

So it should be ideal for young people, to introduce them to partner dancing if nothing else - certainly the learning curve in almost any other partner dance is much steeper.

When I started Ceroc, I was in my early 20s (and yes, that scares me now), but I don't think I was excessively young at that point. Has that changed a lot?

Despite my earlier comments, I think it could be a good idea to introduce partner dancing to younger people (mid-late teens is what I mean by that). But just remember that it might well upset the gender balance even further. At that wretched school disco, how many of the girls were dancing, and how many of the boys? My suspicion – and please disabuse me of this notion if I’m wrong – is that a lot of guys come to partner dancing when they are a bit older and don’t care so much about what their friends think. Your average 16-18 year old boy is not very likely to be into the idea – unless they realise it’s a way to get their hands on members of the opposite sex! The girls on the other hand will probably be queuing up… DJ will be happy!! :devil:

Re. the name/definition – why is it modern jive and not just jive? What’s the difference? Am sure that this has been dealt with before elsewhere, and sorry for the ignorance but have been wondering for some time and have been asked it and unable to answer. :confused:

As for the music question (or any other question about MJ/Ceroc), surely how it’s portrayed is to do with the delivery of the answer to the question? “What music do you dance to?” “Any music” sounds flat and boring – I usually wax lyrical about the variety of music played and dig around in my memory for examples (am hopeless with names of anything), my standard response usually mentioning one memorable dance I had to a mixture of Enya and the Prodigy… sound enthusiastic and that will make it sounds like a positive, not a negative.

As for the fact that Ceroc is “easy”, a tweak of the marketing can fix that. A sort of “easy to start, but just see where you can go with it” thing. (Bit tired and can’t think of anything poetical to use!)

Twirly
11th-August-2006, 10:13 AM
bigdjiver - the term you're looking for I think is critical mass, where something reaches a level of popularity and then suddenly takes off/explodes and becomes huge.

Of course, how long that lasts for depends on how well the business copes with it - it can ruin things too. If that happens, let's just hope that Ceroc is ready for it!

David Bailey
11th-August-2006, 11:34 AM
Re. the name/definition – why is it modern jive and not just jive? What’s the difference? Am sure that this has been dealt with before elsewhere, and sorry for the ignorance but have been wondering for some time and have been asked it and unable to answer. :confused:

"Jive" is typically shorthand for ballroom jive - one of the 5 Latin dances (yes, that is confusing - Jive is Latin, Tango isn't, in the weird and wonderful world of ballroom dancing).

One possible alternative, which is still occasionally used, for "Modern Jive" could be "French Jive", which may sound a bit cooler. "Latin Jive", IMO, would sound cooler still.

Daisy Chain
11th-August-2006, 12:00 PM
If Ceroc isn't a sexy name, but Salsa is, then maybe we need to pick another tomato-based sauce for a name.

So how about 'Ketchup' ???

... or another orange coloured drink?

Daisy

(A Tangoed Little Flower)

David Bailey
11th-August-2006, 12:08 PM
... or another orange coloured drink?
"Lucozade Jive" - works for me :whistle:

- with "You know when you've been Lucozaded" as the slogan? :)

El Salsero Gringo
11th-August-2006, 12:16 PM
If Ceroc isn't a sexy name, but Salsa is, then maybe we need to pick another tomato-based sauce for a name.

So how about 'Ketchup' ???Why limit yourself to tomato? "I dance Guacomole" has a good ring to me.

David Franklin
11th-August-2006, 12:21 PM
Why limit yourself to tomato? "I dance Guacomole" has a good ring to me.Or, following on the popularity of "Shall we Dance?", how about Lettuce Dance?

Twirly
11th-August-2006, 12:27 PM
Or, following on the popularity of "Shall we Dance?", how about Lettuce Dance?

Why are most of these new names food related?! What does this tell us about Ceroc - that you get very hungry afterwards?!

El Salsero Gringo
11th-August-2006, 12:34 PM
Why are most of these new names food related?! What does this tell us about Ceroc - that you get very hungry afterwards?!I thought salsa was so-called because it was a mixture of all different things, like the sauce. Seeing as Ceroc is much the same, in an English, understated sort of way, it should perhaps be called "Mish-Mash" ?:sick:

Daisy Chain
11th-August-2006, 12:38 PM
Since the name Ceroc is an anglicised version of its original French name (C'est le Roc), perhaps we should ask a native whether it sounds cooler when said properly in a foreign language.

Now, do we know any Frenchmen? :whistle:

Daisy

(An English Little FLower)

Gadget
11th-August-2006, 12:58 PM
...If Ceroc does that the the Ceroc championships could be extended to two days, or a three day weekender, and have competitive categories where Lindy, Ballroom and WCS dancers could compete...
This model then steers the whole thing towards competition dancing - that is all about looking cool, isn't it? "I want to look cool - never mind being able to dance."
:(

Twirly
11th-August-2006, 01:04 PM
I thought salsa was so-called because it was a mixture of all different things, like the sauce. Seeing as Ceroc is much the same, in an English, understated sort of way, it should perhaps be called "Mish-Mash" ?:sick:

Mushy peas? :sick: Bubble and squeak? (or maybe that could be yank and squeak, since that's what we seem to do) I need my lunch - think I'm getting light headed.

El Salsero Gringo
11th-August-2006, 01:15 PM
Mushy peas? :sick: Bubble and squeak? (or maybe that could be yank and squeak, since that's what we seem to do) I need my lunch - think I'm getting light headed.Got it ... "I dance Yank-n-W*nk (TM)".

I think I should stop now before I get the sack.

Twirly
11th-August-2006, 01:17 PM
Got it ... "I dance Yank-n-W*nk (TM)".

I think I should stop now before I get the sack.


ROFLMAO! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Nearly spat my lunch all over the monitor then, thanks ESG!

spindr
11th-August-2006, 01:20 PM
If it wuz cool wudnt it b called "C3r0c"?

SpinDr

ducasi
11th-August-2006, 01:22 PM
It seems there's two different "cool"s being talked about here.

There's what we as dancers think is cool, then there's what the general public think of as cool. I'd suggest they are quite different.

I also think it's very difficult to make a dance form cool for all people and all ages. In this thread alone you'll find differences of opinion on whether each of jazz, swing, lindy, rock'n'roll, retro clothing, etc., is cool or not.

Some people want MJ to go back to its swing and jive roots, while to others it's that very factor that put them off Ceroc initially.

Perhaps a split is called for?

David Bailey
11th-August-2006, 01:29 PM
I thought salsa was so-called because it was a mixture of all different things, like the sauce.
Getting back to being vaguely sensible, I believe the name came about because the band members playing the relevant type of Latin music used to call out "salsa!" meaning "hot / saucy / spicy". But there are probably 134 other explanations - people can't even agree on when it started, so who knows how the name came about?

As for "What is Cool", I repeat: I want a dance that I can evangelise about to outsiders without spending 5 minutes failing to explain it (as memorably described by Mr Franklin a few posts back).

That's all :innocent:

Twirly
11th-August-2006, 01:37 PM
As for "What is Cool", I repeat: I want a dance that I can evangelise about to outsiders without spending 5 minutes failing to explain it (as memorably described by Mr Franklin a few posts back).

That's all :innocent:

Since you're a leader, can't you just grab the nearest woman and lead her through a few steps? They say a picture is worth a thousand words...

I kept talking about Ceroc to people on holiday who had never heard of it. I couldn't explain it properly as I can't lead. I eventually found someone who could do the basics (and wound up performing in public - which was a bit of a shock to the system! :blush: )

Twirly
11th-August-2006, 01:38 PM
btw - thanks for the jive explanation DJ

Your wife
11th-August-2006, 01:48 PM
The problem with making something cool is that its fine for a year or two but once it goes out of fashion it automatically becomes repulsive, and the subject of retropsective TV shows, hence in 10 years time on "I love 2006" people will be guiltily admitting going to Salsa classes. I like the fact that Ceroc exists as an edgy subculture, we should celebrate the fact that we are the "knitting dodging" punks of our day!

jockey
11th-August-2006, 01:50 PM
Most of the clientelle are 30s/40s I think...
If it was considered "cool" how many of the above age group would have gone along? Not sure I would have :confused:

I think it would be great to get an injection of younger dancers though - one of my fav leads at the moment is a beautiful young forumite - she's such a natural at leading and throws herself into it - and to this end I think we have to grab the kids at school... okay so we're looking at it becoming cool in about 10 years time (give or take 5 years if secondary kids get hooked) but I'm guessing that would change the feel of the nights as they are? Or maybe we'll have one night aimed for the cool cats and one for the older dudes...

Who knows? I for one would love to see more people get involved cos its such a great way to spend an evening; the weekend; your life :clap: Beach Boogie has a youngsters section ("young offenders") which is highly successful (fully booked for 2007); perhaps other organisers could borrow this idea and have a youth section at their party weekenders. football and cricket have youth policies (remember the "Busby Babes") to nurture young talent - why not Modern Jive, sorry, Ceroc, sorry, Le Roc, or is it Le Step..?

bigdjiver
11th-August-2006, 01:52 PM
...Re. the name/definition – why is it modern jive and not just jive? What’s the difference? Am sure that this has been dealt with before elsewhere, and sorry for the ignorance but have been wondering for some time and have been asked it and unable to answer. :confused: ...I believe "Jive" was slang for something a bit "dodgy", false, not well done, as in "Don't give me that jive." and was originally applied to swing dancing not being done properly in the early years of rock and roll, when few took lessons.

jockey
11th-August-2006, 01:59 PM
I believe Lydia has abandoned MJ for the world of Salsa. Which is kind of interesting, in view of this discussion...
Even more interesting at the last but one Phat Friday freestyle night, Lydia"s ex, the aforementioned Viktor, having taught an impromptu class (Nigel was unable to fulfill his committment) disappeared downstairs to the Salsa night run by another organisation to do his dancing..
(Great class, mind..)

ducasi
11th-August-2006, 01:59 PM
The problem with making something cool is that its fine for a year or two but once it goes out of fashion it automatically becomes repulsive, and the subject of retropsective TV shows, hence in 10 years time on "I love 2006" people will be guiltily admitting going to Salsa classes. I like the fact that Ceroc exists as an edgy subculture, we should celebrate the fact that we are the "knitting dodging" punks of our day!
I can't remember a time when Salsa was "uncool" amongst the non-dancing masses.

bigdjiver
11th-August-2006, 02:00 PM
This model then steers the whole thing towards competition dancing - that is all about looking cool, isn't it? "I want to look cool - never mind being able to dance."
:(I do not see Ceroc Modern Jive as a dance very suited to competition, and would take the line of letting the WCS and Lindy dancers and whatever compete for the big prizes, and try to pick up on the line "I started at Ceroc." It did occur to me that the comp could include a "Decdanceathon" event, where the competitors had to dance to tracks in a wide variety of genres and tempos. This was one reason behind my comp over two days idea. This would give MJ dancers a better chance, and also help market the dance as "The Swiss army knife of dance."

clevedonboy
11th-August-2006, 02:17 PM
I believe "Jive" was slang for something a bit "dodgy", false, not well done, as in "Don't give me that jive." and was originally applied to swing dancing not being done properly in the early years of rock and roll, when few took lessons.

Pretty much it. Jive comes from the English (as in the nationality not language) early / mid 20th century word for Jazz. The word Jive then became a term of derision in the US when people saw UK styled swing as opposed to the true form of the dance

Dorothy
11th-August-2006, 03:22 PM
The problem with making something cool is that its fine for a year or two but once it goes out of fashion it automatically becomes repulsive, and the subject of retropsective TV shows, hence in 10 years time on "I love 2006" people will be guiltily admitting going to Salsa classes. I like the fact that Ceroc exists as an edgy subculture, we should celebrate the fact that we are the "knitting dodging" punks of our day!
Good post.
'Edgy subculture' - do you really think so?
Isn't it more of a cult?

LemonCake
11th-August-2006, 04:15 PM
Since you're a leader, can't you just grab the nearest woman and lead her through a few steps? They say a picture is worth a thousand words...

I kept talking about Ceroc to people on holiday who had never heard of it. I couldn't explain it properly as I can't lead. I eventually found someone who could do the basics (and wound up performing in public - which was a bit of a shock to the system! :blush: )


I can lead the basic moves so I did exactly this with a couple of the girls in the ladies toilets at Frankensteins - they loved it! :clap:

ducasi
11th-August-2006, 06:11 PM
I can lead the basic moves so I did exactly this with a couple of the girls in the ladies toilets at Frankensteins - they loved it! :clap:
Guys – now we know why girls go in groups to the toilet.... :clap:

Daisy Chain
11th-August-2006, 09:29 PM
Got it ... "I dance Yank-n-W*nk (TM)".



:rofl:

I danced with a winker last night. Was it you? Is your eye better now?

Daisy

(A Facetious Little Flower)

Gadget
11th-August-2006, 10:00 PM
... try to pick up on the line "I started at Ceroc." ...
This implys that the other dance styles are "better" than Ceroc in some way: personally I think that MJ is so encompassing that all the other styles seem to be branches of MJ - I think that it has the potential to be superior to all of them, simply by taking the best bits and making them it's own.
:D :respect: :waycool:

Hearing the above quote I would be asking "and why didn't you stay there?" or "what was so impressive or inspiring that drew you away?" or "and you are a better dancer because you gave up on that form and took up another?" :confused:
I started dancing at Ceroc - I learned how to dance at Ceroc - I now dance Modern Jive. :wink:

ducasi
11th-August-2006, 11:50 PM
As for "What is Cool", I repeat: I want a dance that I can evangelise about to outsiders without spending 5 minutes failing to explain it (as memorably described by Mr Franklin a few posts back).
Funny, you don't need to spend 5 minutes explaining to people what Line Dancing is (though they may well have the wrong idea) but outside (and for many people inside) the dancing world, it sure as hell ain't cool.

Piglet
12th-August-2006, 12:41 AM
I've got it!

Sorted!

Easy!

We all wear shades! :waycool:
and according to the smiley we're way cool!


Next problem? Bring it on.

Beowulf
12th-August-2006, 12:51 AM
I started dancing at Ceroc - I learned how to dance at Ceroc - I now dance Modern Jive. :wink:

I started dancing at Ceroc - I learned how to dance at Ceroc - I now dance infrequently? rubbish? like a scarecrow in a hurricane? :wink:

straycat
13th-August-2006, 06:56 PM
This implys that the other dance styles are "better" than Ceroc in some way: personally I think that MJ is so encompassing that all the other styles seem to be branches of MJ - I think that it has the potential to be superior to all of them, simply by taking the best bits and making them it's own.


Oddly enough, I remember making exactly the same point to a Lindyhopper a few years back. He did not agree, funnily enough :rolleyes:
And now it's come full circle, because I no longer believe it. MJ isn't encompassing - it's more like a blank canvas into which you can bring much of your other dance experience, as you say - and that does give it a lot of its appeal. BUT - having started to explore other dances (esp. lh & tango) - I now realise that you simply cannot get the same amazing and unique feelings by bringing other dances into MJ, as you can by dancing said dances properly.

David Bailey
13th-August-2006, 07:53 PM
Oddly enough, I remember making exactly the same point to a Lindyhopper a few years back. He did not agree, funnily enough :rolleyes:
I don't (now) think any of the established partner dances are inherently better (or sexier, or whatever) than any other - it's all about how they're danced, I think. Like languages; it's all in how you use it.

Although I think that some dances have a much steeper initial learning curve than others - again, like languages, French is easier for a European to learn than Japanese.

But I guess people with limited range of dance experience still think their dance is the best. Whereas I, of course, know AT is the best :innocent:

My point about "cool" was nothing really to do with the dance itself - but the culture and the environment and the marketing of that dance.

Gadget
13th-August-2006, 08:08 PM
... BUT - having started to explore other dances (esp. lh & tango) - I now realise that you simply cannot get the same amazing and unique feelings by bringing other dances into MJ, as you can by dancing said dances properly.
No, you can't - hence "unique". However I still believe that you can get equally amazing and unique feelings within MJ. Different, but still amazing. You could even try and work out what exactly makes it amazing and transplant it into your MJ. Won't have exactly the same emphasis, in fact (in theory) you could provide greater contrast which would make it even more amazing :wink:

No point in bringing other dances into MJ - if you like the style of them, the music they are danced to, how they're danced, etc. then you may as well learn how to dance them properly... What there is a point to is learning from these dances things that are common to MJ and can help you within it. :waycool:

straycat
13th-August-2006, 08:36 PM
I don't (now) think any of the established partner dances are inherently better (or sexier, or whatever) than any other - it's all about how they're danced, I think. Like languages; it's all in how you use it.


Agreed. Although some are worse :whistle:



Although I think that some dances have a much steeper initial learning curve than others - again, like languages, French is easier for a European to learn than Japanese.


Amen to that. MJ was the easiest I've tried (a big part of its appeal), AT is the hardest (for me) to date, and the only reason why Lindy didn't seem hard to begin with was because I didn't have a clue what it was :really:



But I guess people with limited range of dance experience still think their dance is the best. Whereas I, of course, know AT is the best :innocent:


And you are right. Personally, I know that Lindy is the best, and I'm right too. :whistle:



My point about "cool" was nothing really to do with the dance itself - but the culture and the environment and the marketing of that dance.

Well - something to do with the dance, surely? I do see what you're saying though, but any further answer I give on that score might be a bit - contentious :eek:

NZ Monkey
14th-August-2006, 01:11 AM
As I see it there are two main reasons why Ceroc/MJ isn't seen as being as ''cool'' as other dances.

Firstly:

This implys that the other dance styles are "better" than Ceroc in some way: personally I think that MJ is so encompassing that all the other styles seem to be branches of MJ - I think that it has the potential to be superior to all of them, simply by taking the best bits and making them it's own.
:D :respect: :waycool:
At the risk of dissing something I've come to love so much - I think the the other styles are ''better'' than Ceroc in some way.

The reason being that other styles are developed around very specific styles of music and movement. They are specialists, and specialists are by their nature better at doing what they do than generalists. If you were to compare a couple of {tango/salsa/whatever} dancers to a pair of Cerocers with equal experience to the same {tango/salsa/whatever} music its a pretty safe bet which pair will look better. Any comparison of the same couples to a different genre of music is irrelevant, since the specialists are not trained to dance in that medium anyway.

Professional football players are ''cool'' because they excel in a specific arena. If they had to spread their time practicing rugby and cricket at the expense of their football skills they may wind up being better rounded sportsmen, but they wouldn't be as ''cool'' because the specialist football players out there would be able to bet them. They'd be good, but not the best anymore.

Ceroc is much touted as being able to be danced to a wide variety of music. That is it's strength, but if we're worried about it being cool it's also its biggest weakness. There will always be something out there better at anything we try to do because we try to do so much. Not being the best at anything recognisable makes us much less cool than we could be.


Secondly:
Ceroc is marketed as being easy to learn, and danceable to the aforementioned wide range of music. In other words, it's dancing for the unwashed masses. While that makes for a good business model it does nothing for the image of Ceroc as something ''cool''.

When I think of ballroom I think of sparkly and slinky dresses, tuxedos, grace and elegance. When I think of tango and salsa, I think of Latin fire and passion. When I think of hip hop I think of scantily clad women shaking their booty (for a long happy while...). When I think of Ceroc, I think of laymen. Not many of us are elegant, fiery and sexy or can shake our booty like a (...errr...) pro, but most of us are laymen. Just everyday, ordinary people. Everyday things are not ''cool'', they're mundane unless you really stop to analyse them - which most people never do.

There is no convenient pigeon hole to put Ceroc in other than ''the dance that's difficult to define in its own terms that lots of people can do'', and where does that leave us on the ''cool'' front compared to other partnered dancers to the punter that might be interested in starting one?



Hearing the above quote I would be asking "and why didn't you stay there?" or "what was so impressive or inspiring that drew you away?" or "and you are a better dancer because you gave up on that form and took up another?" :confused:
I started dancing at Ceroc - I learned how to dance at Ceroc - I now dance Modern Jive. :wink: I think there are many things that are likely to move people away from ceroc, and most of them are a direct result of it's success.

For example:
1) Instruction in other styles are much more technical and therefore 'better' from a certain point of view. This example is entirely depended upon the Ceroc teacher of course, but how technical can a class of 100 people of varying ability get? The teacher is the punters biggest influencer of their opinion of Ceroc.

2) After getting a taster of various styles of move at Ceroc, the punter has realised that he prefers one ''type'' of movement over the others and decides to explore that particular one over the others. Many of cerocs moves are ''liberated'' form other dancing styles and this can provide a taster of what other styles may offer.

3) The punter had reached a plateau where further improvement in the Ceroc format was very difficult to achieve. If improvement is a primary ambition, then changing formats is one way to do it when this happens. You may be starting from the beginning again, but you are learning at a faster rate because of it.

Note that none of these reasons are directly related to Ceroc being ''uncool'' though. They're related to it being commercially successful on a large scale. Of course, there are other reasons someone might have left that aren't, but they tend to be personal ones I'd think. They broke up with the girl/boyfriend they'd met there and decided to do something else to make avoiding them easy. They may have moved house and found the local venue just wasn't what they were looking for....the list can go on.

On a related note, what proportion of the fantastic dancers in the MJ scene have other dance experience in more formal settings than the Ceroc venues? I suspect that the percentage is very high, unless they were learning in the days before the classes became so large that individual attention was still a possibility for the teachers. Of the ones that are left, how many of those have been actively engaged in other physical activities that stress posture, balance and movement? What proportion is then left that was trained solely in the Ceroc scene? Important lessons can be learned from other schools of dance and re-introduced to MJ if the student comes back to it eventually (and there are a lot of reasons why one would come back - I don't want to sound like Mr Negativity after all...). So perhaps the better question is ''Do we need people to explore other styles to help safeguard against the declining standards that are inevitable as Ceroc continues to grow''?.

Hmmmm, that was a whole essay without any smilies. I need to add some just so I can get fix tonight.
:yum: :wink: :whistle: :blush: :clap: :hug: :devil: :flower: :waycool:

El Salsero Gringo
14th-August-2006, 01:50 AM
unless they were learning in the days before the classes became so large that individual attention was still a possibility for the teachersI'm not sure when that would have been. The Central Club in the 1980's had classes of hundreds, so I'm given to understand. Yet there are classes today with less than thirty, and review workshops with two beginners and four taxi-dancers. Compared to Salsa, Lindy and some Ballroom classes of my direct experience, Ceroc excels in giving individual attention.

MartinHarper
14th-August-2006, 03:00 AM
Many of cerocs moves are ''liberated'' form other dancing styles

I don't think Ceroc is particularly unusual in this.


Compared to Salsa, Lindy and some Ballroom classes of my direct experience, Ceroc excels in giving individual attention.

My experience has been that Lindy provides more individual attention overall. The MJ "beginner's review" is the exception to that.

bigdjiver
14th-August-2006, 08:19 AM
As I see it ...Pretty much as I see it too.
As I said "Ceroc - one gateway to cool.". We get couples doing tango and swing mixed in the freestyle segment of our classes, and even more encouragingly, their own thing.


...So perhaps the better question is ''Do we need people to explore other styles...definitely.


to help safeguard against the declining standards that are inevitable as Ceroc continues to grow''?.It is rising standards that are inevitable, and, IMO, to be guarded against. To me Ceroc is about learning to love learning to dance. The natural trend is raise the standard, and to move the gateway ever higher up the hill, and then wonder why they are not coming in like they used to.

David Bailey
14th-August-2006, 08:46 AM
Ceroc is much touted as being able to be danced to a wide variety of music.
You know, I'm not sure that's really true (although I agree that's how it's touted) - I think it's more the case that it can be danced to a lot of pop music that we are familiar with. If you look at the BPM range for "standard Ceroc", it's not (AFAIK) much wider than that for a lot of other dances.


Ceroc is marketed as being easy to learn, and danceable to the aforementioned wide range of music. In other words, it's dancing for the unwashed masses. While that makes for a good business model it does nothing for the image of Ceroc as something ''cool''.
Good point...


So perhaps the better question is ''Do we need people to explore other styles to help safeguard against the declining standards that are inevitable as Ceroc continues to grow''?.
Oi! Start your own thread :na:

Re: stealing moves...

I don't think Ceroc is particularly unusual in this.
Yes - all dance styles evolved from previous ones.
On the other hand, they then started to create their own variations - and I don't think MJ is doing that yet - after 25 years, it's stll stealing from other dances (AT, salsa and WCS). I don't know if there's much in the way of a "fully independent MJ" movement being created.

DJ Andy
14th-August-2006, 10:41 AM
Great post eloquently put NZ Monkey!
I agree with everything you say.
:respect:

NZ Monkey
14th-August-2006, 12:31 PM
I just can't keep away from this forum. I think I have a new addiction....


Great post eloquently put NZ Monkey!Umm, thank you. *NZ Monkey turns a mild shade of red - refer to compliments thread* :blush:


I think it's more the case that it can be danced to a lot of pop music that we are familiar with. If you look at the BPM range for "standard Ceroc", it's not (AFAIK) much wider than that for a lot of other dances.You're probably right here, but there isn't a definitive style of music either as there is with many other dances.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NZ Monkey
So perhaps the better question is ''Do we need people to explore other styles to help safeguard against the declining standards that are inevitable as Ceroc continues to grow''?.

Oi! Start your own thread Definitely a better idea than hijacking this one. I'll get right on it :wink:


I'm not sure when that would have been. The Central Club in the 1980's had classes of hundreds, so I'm given to understand. Yet there are classes today with less than thirty, and review workshops with two beginners and four taxi-dancers. Compared to Salsa, Lindy and some Ballroom classes of my direct experience, Ceroc excels in giving individual attention. Presumably there was a time when there were not hundreds in the class, and the people in it were all of comparable ability. In these cases, individual attention isn’t so bad because you can guarantee that others in the class will be doing the same thing incorrectly as well and will be listening and learning from what you say to the individual. When the classes start to have a wider range of ability in them and greater numbers to boot, is it really fair to spend time singling out mistakes that a virtual beginner is making and re-iterating the point when you're more capable/experienced students are paying the same amount and getting far less benefit for it? Individual attention is not encouraged in class situations with the class model here, and although Ceroc does a fantastic job of supporting beginners, they only really get that for the first 6 classes (just enough time to get them hooked...).

Workshops are great, but the people who you spend most of your time dancing with at your local venue are not likely to have gone to the same ones you did so there is little opportunity to put the teachings there into practise in a typical class night. It does take two to tang...err... ceroc after all.

Anyway, I'm badly off the ''cool'' topic now. I'll start another thread regarding the effects of growth on quality and if anyone's interested in keeping the discussion going they're more than welcome to join that one :wink:

Gadget
14th-August-2006, 01:44 PM
Workshops are great, but the people who you spend most of your time dancing with at your local venue are not likely to have gone to the same ones you did so there is little opportunity to put the teachings there into practise in a typical class night. It does take two to tang...err... ceroc after all.
Don't have time to respond to all the points you raised {don't worry; I will later :devil: - oi- I heard that :(}, but if the workshops you are going to require everyone to have been on them to get something out of them, then I don't rate that workshop at all.
Every workshop (with a couple of exceptions) I've been on has stuff that I can/do practice on people who have no idea. Perhaps that's just me, perhaps that's just the quality of workshops I'm used to?

Twirly
14th-August-2006, 03:54 PM
Yes, it's alright for you leads. As a follower, if I don't get the moves (and so far, all my workshops have been moves based as that's been my level) in freestyle, I forget them (although you could argue that I shouldn’t remember them anyway). In fact, as a follower, although I’ve enjoyed the workshops and would encourage others to do them, am not sure how much they are going to improve my dancing. From now on I’ll be concentrating on technique-based workshops rather than moves-based ones.

El Salsero Gringo
14th-August-2006, 04:20 PM
Yes, it's alright for you leads. As a follower, if I don't get the moves (and so far, all my workshops have been moves based as that's been my level) in freestyle, I forget them (although you could argue that I shouldn’t remember them anyway). In fact, as a follower, although I’ve enjoyed the workshops and would encourage others to do them, am not sure how much they are going to improve my dancing. From now on I’ll be concentrating on technique-based workshops rather than moves-based ones.As a follower I guess you should concentrate on learning the elements of the moves - the turns, the spins, the steps that go between them. I'll stick my neck out and say you can learn these well from move-based workshops if you allow the men to lead them in the workshop, and if they're up to it. You can learn the technique for a (say) swizzle into a double anti-clockwise turn, but if you don't practice it 400 times with different guys (which you will get to do in a workshop, if you allow them to lead it) then learning the technique -which is mainly managing your own balance, and comes through practice - won't help any. Just a thought.

LMC
14th-August-2006, 04:26 PM
^^^ Very true.

But as I aim to do both the beginner and intermediate lessons when I go to a regular Ceroc night (and also try to make it in time for the class if one is being held at a weekend freestyle) I'm with Twirly on the workshops - I'd rather lash out the "extra" £25/30 on a technique focussed one than a move focussed one.

El Salsero Gringo
14th-August-2006, 04:26 PM
When the classes start to have a wider range of ability in them and greater numbers to boot, is it really fair to spend time singling out mistakes that a virtual beginner is making and re-iterating the point when you're more capable/experienced students are paying the same amount and getting far less benefit for it?

{snip}

Workshops are great, but the people who you spend most of your time dancing with at your local venue are not likely to have gone to the same ones you did so there is little opportunity to put the teachings there into practise in a typical class night. It does take two to tang...err... ceroc after all.I disagree most strongly. There's enough difficult content in even the beginners class for pretty much everyone to be able to get benefit out of it. The only difficulty with Ceroc is that we downplay (deliberately) the fact that most people *don't* get it. That step back? It's important. That spin, on the spot, on balance, on the beat? That's important too. Most people who go to intermediate classes can't even do those bits in the beginner's class. It's up to people to get their own benefit from the class time, but most of the time they choose not to. Individual attention would only be focused on pointing them at things they're already doing wrong, and that's a bit of a demotivator, frankly.

Ditto for workshops. It's simply not necessary to have learnt the moves at the same workshop as the person you're dancing with. Men can practice (are best off practicing) on women who don't know the moves. Women learn snippets of technique through practice that stand them in good stead when dancing other moves they've never seen before.

El Salsero Gringo
14th-August-2006, 04:31 PM
I'm with Twirly on the workshops - I'd rather lash out the "extra" £25/30 on a technique focussed one than a move focussed one.Or you could save yourselves the £30 and focus on mastering the techniques you need during the move based workshops.

Twirly
14th-August-2006, 04:35 PM
^^^ Very true.

But as I aim to do both the beginner and intermediate lessons when I go to a regular Ceroc night (and also try to make it in time for the class if one is being held at a weekend freestyle) I'm with Twirly on the workshops - I'd rather lash out the "extra" £25/30 on a technique focussed one than a move focussed one.

:yeah:

Me too on the regular nights, though not so much on freestyle nights, but that's more to do with having to bolt my dinner down and travel for an hour+ to get there!

Just lashed out £30 - this thread reminded me I wanted to do the Style 1 next month :grin:

LMC
14th-August-2006, 04:41 PM
Or you could save yourselves the £30 and focus on mastering the techniques you need during the move based workshops.
Technique workshops can be move-based and carried out with a partner, it's the focus that's different as they may not be teaching you new moves, but be trying to help you ensure you're doing the basics better. And those are my absolute favourites :nice:

Plus I'm fick and frequently need reminding that I should be thinking about my core stability, my posture, my balance, making sure I commit all my (not inconsiderable) weight to whichever foot I'm stepping on, keeping my weight on the balls of my feet, trying to keep my centre of gravity as low as possible, keeping my knees and ankles together, taking small steps, trying not to bounce, making sure my handhold is right, maintaining frame, connecting with my partner as well as possible, making eye contact, smiling, spotting when I spin, keeping eyes front when I spin, not looking at my feet, remembering that there are other connection 'points' than hand to hand, matching the tension, not yanking, striving for 'elasticity', following my partner, doing something interesting with my spare arm, not whacking anyone with said spare arm, moving my feet, dancing on time, listening to the music, and a whole bunch of other stuff which I've forgotten (see first 3 words of this deliberately stupidly long list).

EDIT: Oh, and having fun

Twirly
14th-August-2006, 04:43 PM
:yeah: I've got a headache now!!:tears:

El Salsero Gringo
14th-August-2006, 04:46 PM
Technique workshops can be move-based and carried out with a partner, it's the focus that's different as they may not be teaching you new moves, but be trying to help you ensure you're doing the basics better. And those are my absolute favourites :nice:There's a beginners class at every Ceroc night at which you are invited to focus on doing exactly that, if you care to give it a go. It's good value too, at £7-8.
Plus I'm fick and frequently need reminding that I should be thinking about my core stability, my posture, my balance, making sure I commit all my (not inconsiderable) weight to whichever foot I'm stepping on, keeping my weight on the balls of my feet, trying to keep my centre of gravity as low as possible, keeping my knees and ankles together, taking small steps, trying not to bounce, making sure my handhold is right, maintaining frame, connecting with my partner as well as possible, making eye contact, smiling, spotting when I spin, keeping eyes front when I spin, not looking at my feet, remembering that there are other connection 'points' than hand to hand, matching the tension, not yanking, striving for 'elasticity', following my partner, doing something interesting with my spare arm, not whacking anyone with said spare arm, moving my feet, dancing on time, listening to the music, and a whole bunch of other stuff which I've forgotten (see first 3 words of this deliberately stupidly long list).Print that lot out, and stick it to your partner's forehead during the class, where it will stay in view. Don't forget to take it with you when you move on. (On second thoughts, take extra copies and leave them as you go. Your fellow dancers could do with the advice.)

tsh
14th-August-2006, 04:49 PM
Was there a conclusion on why it was a good idea for ceroc to be cool? If I wanted to look cool I'd be in a nichtclub, drinking strange coloured pop, not dancing!

Twirly
14th-August-2006, 04:51 PM
Print that lot out, and stick it to your partner's forehead during the class, where it will stay in view. Don't forget to take it with you when you move on. (On second thoughts, take extra copies and leave them as you go. Your fellow dancers could do with the advice.)

:rofl:

This might solve the problem for the followers of whether we thought the lead was attractive or not too – since we wouldn’t be able to actually see their face! :devil:

LMC
14th-August-2006, 04:57 PM
There's a beginners class at every Ceroc night at which you are invited to focus on doing exactly that, if you care to give it a go.
Exactly. Which is why when I go to a Ceroc night, I make every effort to get there in time for the beginner's class. Unfortunately, although they allow me to focus on the things I remember, they don't always remind me of the stuff I've forgotten. Some of the technique-based workshops I've been to recently haven't taught me anything I haven't heard or read already (EDIT: gawd that comes across arrogant - not meant to be, more a case of nothing "surprising" 'cos I've read so much on here - and I'm not ruling out being 'surprised' in future workshops by things I'd never even considered). But these workshops have still been worth every single penny in terms of actually understanding the theory I've picked up (mainly from here) and in telling me what I really need to focus on to improve my dancing.

I'm not claiming I get "nothing" out of moves-based classes - Saturday's Advanced moves class was, well, a moves class, but still gave me some general insights into my following (and lack of skill thereof). But given a choice of "extras"/workshops - well, it's gotta be technique-based for me, every time.

robd
14th-August-2006, 05:02 PM
Going off-topic a bit but I agree with ESG about the merits of doing Beginner's class - there's always lots to work on and different style elements to practice no matter how many hundreds of times you've done the actual moves. The tricky part sometimes can be in deciding how to do a move if the way that you lead it in freestyle differs from that being demonstrated (First move is a good example). However I do sometimes sit out of beginners class at my local venue as the floor gets uncomfortably crowded and I figure that some other people there may get more benefit than I from taking part and it's to no-one's benefit to be squeezed in like sardines. Conversely I do often sit out of the Intermediate class, not because I feel I have nothing to learn from it but
* it's the only chance of the night to socialise and chat with people I don't see too often
* The routine includes a dip or drop more often than not and I don't have a particular liking for these (and would - and have - attend a specialist workshop if I did want to learn them). Walking out of the class midway through cocks up the moving on (and makes the lady who you leave in the lurch wonder why you don't want to do dips with her)

Robert

Twirly
14th-August-2006, 05:20 PM
Some of the technique-based workshops I've been to recently haven't taught me anything I haven't heard or read already But these workshops have still been worth every single penny in terms of actually understanding the theory I've picked up (mainly from here) and in telling me what I really need to focus on to improve my dancing.

It’s actually very hard work picking technique up in the beginners/intermediate classes as they are so moves-based. I sort of do it by a process of osmosis – watching other people in freestyle mostly. Or asking questions sometimes. Even realising that sometimes things that appear to go wrong (e.g. on a spin) are not always your fault…

I was forever wobbling around on my spins and getting more and more tense till I asked the teacher about them. She gave me some exercises to practise which have helped, but also pointed out that a lot of leads do simply send you off-balance and there is little you can do about that except get back on it as quickly as possible yourself. And improving my own spinning has helped me do that – plus I know when it’s my fault now :tears: , or when it’s the leads :mad: (or a combo).

But I needed the personal attention to get this. Maybe that begs the question though as to whether that should be taught in class…

So practising technique in beginners classes – absolutely. But acquiring it there, not quite so easy.

Sorry, way off thread.

LMC
14th-August-2006, 05:23 PM
Sorry, way off thread.
:blush: - guilty as charged.

Er, yeah... making Ceroc cool...

More and bigger fans :D

David Bailey
14th-August-2006, 07:15 PM
Re: ceroc music

You're probably right here, but there isn't a definitive style of music either as there is with many other dances.
You could argue that, on a global / historical scale, "Western pop music" is a fairly narrow style.

The off-topic :mad: bits:

Yes, it's alright for you leads. As a follower, if I don't get the moves (and so far, all my workshops have been moves based as that's been my level) in freestyle, I forget them (although you could argue that I shouldn’t remember them anyway).
Indeed one could - any lead or move that requires followers to remember sequences is not a good lead... And I'm not convinced that a moves-based workshop is very useful, even for the leads.


That step back? It's important. That spin, on the spot, on balance, on the beat? That's important too.
Damnit, now they tell me. But what foot should I step back on? :innocent:

Back to the Proper Thread Discussion:

Was there a conclusion on why it was a good idea for ceroc to be cool? If I wanted to look cool I'd be in a nichtclub, drinking strange coloured pop, not dancing!
"Cool" means the dance is marketed, promoted, etc. - so more dancers join. And it's easier for me to explain What It Is at these hypothetical parties.

NZ Monkey
14th-August-2006, 07:50 PM
I disagree most strongly. There's enough difficult content in even the beginners class for pretty much everyone to be able to get benefit out of it. The only difficulty with Ceroc is that we downplay (deliberately) the fact that most people *don't* get it. That step back? It's important. That spin, on the spot, on balance, on the beat? That's important too. Most people who go to intermediate classes can't even do those bits in the beginner's class. It's up to people to get their own benefit from the class time, but most of the time they choose not to. Individual attention would only be focused on pointing them at things they're already doing wrong, and that's a bit of a demotivator, frankly.

Ditto for workshops. It's simply not necessary to have learnt the moves at the same workshop as the person you're dancing with. Men can practice (are best off practicing) on women who don't know the moves. Women learn snippets of technique through practice that stand them in good stead when dancing other moves they've never seen before.I agree completly with your first paragraph ESG...

...however, the reason I think so many people don't put the time into working on these things in class isn't because they don't want to learn so much as they don't know what they need to do. It's a case of ''not knowing what you don't know''. I brush on this http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9322 (here). Personal reposnibilty for learning is vital, but Ceroc has to hold up it's end of reminding people what they need to work on. You don't really need to single someone out in class, just watch for what they're doing and address the problem to the whole class. It avoids hurting anyone's feelings that way.

Twirly said this best here
I was forever wobbling around on my spins and getting more and more tense till I asked the teacher about them. She gave me some exercises to practise which have helped, but also pointed out that a lot of leads do simply send you off-balance and there is little you can do about that except get back on it as quickly as possible yourself. And improving my own spinning has helped me do that – plus I know when it’s my fault now , or when it’s the leads (or a combo).

But I needed the personal attention to get this. Maybe that begs the question though as to whether that should be taught in class…

You don't need to do the same workshop to lead women into most moves if they've learned it somewhere before, but it makes it much easier, since both parties know what is supposed to happen and can work on the fine points together.

I disagree with the notion that men are better off practicing on women who don't know the moves though. I can think of half a dozen moves off the top of my head that require a visual cue to differentiate it from another move the woman already knows. Not all moves can have a unique physical lead after all - there are just too many. If she doesn't know the cue the guy isn't going to get to practise it. You're also assuming that the woman is a perfect follower, which is not usually the case I've found.

Yogi_Bear
15th-August-2006, 08:45 AM
Was there a conclusion on why it was a good idea for ceroc to be cool? If I wanted to look cool I'd be in a nichtclub, drinking strange coloured pop, not dancing!
No, I think the discussion keeps going off-thread.
Why would it be a good idea for Ceroc to see itself as cool? If it became cool then that would be temporary - by definition what's cool keeps changing. It would soon be uncool.
How can it see itself as cool? It isn't marketed as such and in order to make that possible it would have to be radically different.
Its very success is because it appeals to a wide demographic - most of whom would never see themselves as cool. It aims to be easy to learn. it brings dancing to the non-dancing general public. It's square. That's what it's good at, that's why it thrives. As I've written here before, when it starts to feature in music videos, when kids dance it in the street, then I may believe it's getting cool.........:innocent:

MartinHarper
15th-August-2006, 07:39 PM
There's enough difficult content in even the beginners class for pretty much everyone to be able to get benefit out of it.

Yes and no. I'm sure there's stuff that can be learnt from the beginner class that I don't know (or don't know properly). However, I don't think I'm capable of learning it any more. Too much repetition messes with the learning process.

quiet_flame
18th-August-2006, 02:33 PM
*quiet_flame finally gets to the end of the thread.

ADMINISTRATOR!
Who let these hoolagins in here and mess up a perfectly good, dance related, non technique related, conversation, turning it into a series of opinions on Signals. *sigh*
On another forum the Administrators can split the thread, does that happen here too?

Okay, one last point to add in respect to Ceroc being :cool:

cool is in the eye of the beholder, Modern Jivers love Modern Jive, and respect other dance forms, as they can see the effort and technique that goes into creating the dance and the look of that style.

Highly styalised dancers, I.e. Professional performers in specific dance styles, usually love the dance they are doing, and have some respect for other dance styles, however will "look down" on Ceroc, as we are the stepping stone for many great dancers.

However, from most of the workshops I have attended with said dance proessionals, they respect Modern Jivers as we listen, and absorb as much as we can in a single lesson, and work F*****g hard to improve, then the next time they come back to teach, they can teach more concepts at a higher level. But they will still run the fundamentals workshops as well, because not surprisingly, Ceroc has grown enough to support the second workshop, and the word has been spread that these teachers will do a good job.

Modern Jivers are unique in that we have to have a fairly well rounded dance technique, as many of the moves we learn, use, and perform come from so many varied dance styles, that to perform them well and make them look good, we have to develop to at least a beginners level at the dance we are stealing from.

to someone who hasn't danced before. Modern Jive is cool.
To Modern Jivers, other styles are cool.
To other styles dance professionals are cool.
To dance professionals, exposure is cool :D

There are other levels to this, but I wanted to make a basic food chain here.

Baruch
19th-August-2006, 12:15 AM
Modern Jivers are unique in that we have to have a fairly well rounded dance technique
Really? From what I've seen, that's the exception rather than the rule.


as many of the moves we learn, use, and perform come from so many varied dance styles, that to perform them well and make them look good, we have to develop to at least a beginners level at the dance we are stealing from.
Ah, but it seems to me that for most modern jivers, performing moves well and making them look good isn't necessarily that high on the agenda, as it takes a lot of effort. For most MJers, being able to dance well enough to have fun with the minimum of effort is the highest priority. And why not? There's nothing wrong with having fun, after all.

There are those who constantly try to improve, to develop style etc, but they're in the minority (and are usually those who take part in competitions).

quiet_flame
19th-August-2006, 12:20 AM
Ah, but it seems to me that for most modern jivers, performing moves well and making them look good isn't necessarily that high on the agenda, as it takes a lot of effort. For most MJers, being able to dance well enough to have fun with the minimum of effort is the highest priority. And why not? There's nothing wrong with having fun, after all.
Well, this is the way we pitch it, so I guess we can expect them to dance like that as well...
I would hope, and most of the people I talk to in dance are usually striving to improve in one way or another. So I guess that's why I said that.



There are those who constantly try to improve, to develop style etc, but they're in the minority (and are usually those who take part in competitions).
:whistle:
That's not me at all... :innocent:

J-J
19th-August-2006, 11:10 PM
jj in glasgow is a fab venue

great atmosphere and ideal area - with watching view space.

only thing is space cos theres lots of us

MartinHarper
12th-September-2006, 10:45 PM
Fresh from a center-Worcester salsa class, I'm going to go with:

1. Classy town center venue with a decent sound system. This means everyone needs to be drinking alcohol, not water.
2. Classy clientelle. No jeans + unironed T-shirt combos.
3. Young people. Because whatever young people do is automatically cool.
4. Footwork/etc to stop the thickos coming. See #2/3.

Tessalicious
13th-September-2006, 02:19 PM
Fresh from a center-Worcester salsa class, I'm going to go with:
snip... stuff about cool..snipWhat I want to know is, do you actually think any of it was an improvement on anywhere 'less cool'?

SteveK
13th-September-2006, 05:06 PM
Fresh from a center-Worcester salsa class, I'm going to go with:

2. Classy clientelle. No jeans + unironed T-shirt combos.
See #2/3.

Not quite sure what you mean by jeans/t-shirt combos. Should we be having the bouncer on the door, similar to a cheesy nightclub ensuring that we are all wearing a "Ben Sherman type shirt with collar" etc.

Does this sounds like a bit of a provincial nightclub attitude (& after living up in Inverness for six years, I know about this kind of place :grin: )

What clothes should a classy clientelle wear anyway???

Emma
13th-September-2006, 05:47 PM
*quiet_flame finally gets to the end of the thread.

ADMINISTRATOR!
Who let these hoolagins in here and mess up a perfectly good, dance related, non technique related, conversation, turning it into a series of opinions on Signals. *sigh*
On another forum the Administrators can split the thread, does that happen here too?Better late than never? :flower:

MartinHarper
13th-September-2006, 06:35 PM
What clothes should a classy clientelle wear anyway?

I believe the general rule is:
Women in clothes that make them look good.
Men in clothes that stop them looking bad.

I am hardly the correct person to be asking that question, though.

Groovemeister
1st-November-2006, 03:53 PM
I haven't read all ths post's that have been made previously so someone may have made this point previously excuse me if they have.

I have been looking at and reading some info on northern soul and realised that there are some parrellels to be drawn from the underground dance music culture and where the dance scene that exsist's around "ceroc".

The first thing I would like to say is what is cool. Cool to me means when something is new chic the thing to do. When things are mainstream and everyone is doing them I wouldn't say they were cool I would say they have lost there coolness at this point.

And this is the problem with "Ceroc" it is to mainstream and not cool enough. When ever something becomes to mainstream it always becomes diluted, watered down.

I would like to think that the other things you could say there are parrellels in is

People are passionate about it
Specific music is played in a specific way
There is a community of people who live and breath it
There are events that happen that if you are not involved you will miss which are seminal to the progression of the scene.

Anyway you get my drift. So to me for "ceroc" in particular to succeed I think it actually needs to become more uncool. This will make the franchises work harder to get the punters through the door and re-evaluate there buisness. Making it better for the people that dare to venture in and eventually filter through to the more underground side of MJ.

MJ and other couple dances will not just fade away as there are to many people involved in it now.

So many times people have wished that a certain thing they are passionate about becomes mainstream so that everyone can enjoy your passion and it's destroyed the thing they loved.

MartinHarper
10th-November-2006, 12:54 AM
Whilst researching dance events over in Atlanta, Georgia, I happened across a little advert:


College Night!
This is the first of a series of College Nights at Hot Jam.
Tonight's college guests: Georgia Tech. All GA Tech students get
free admission when they present a valid GA Tech student ID.

This seems like an excellent way to attract a few students into the dance world, should that be your desire.