The Sleaze Thing

[Tiggerbabe]

Ok - Seeing as Wendy is behaving herself I'll start it off -

What's a girl to do with a bloke who's too sleazy? Or a guy, obiously, if the girl's behaving badly.

There was one gentleman at the Chocolate party on Saturday whom I found particularly sleazy and yet each time he asked me to dance - I accepted. He asked on four separate occassions and each time asked if I would like to stay up for another dance - it was only after dance no 7 that I declined and said I really needed to go and have a rest and a drink - which then meant I couldn't dance for a while with anyone else:tears: :tears:

Every time we danced he did a basket type move but had me right in front of him - and I know he did this with other girls too as we spoke about it afterwards.

I know Lorna had taught a ripple type move in the class but several men used that move on Saturday night and it wasn't sleazy at all - it was fun :wink:

So - THE BIG QUESTION should I have refused him and told him why - or do what I did do and next time I see him approaching the table hurridly need to change my top, shoes, go to the loo etc etc etc

I like dancing blues and as Sandy said in another post somewhere - there are some wonderfully sexy moves that can be done without being sleazy at all, if the mood and the music are right. Maybe it's just a chemistry thing :sorry

[TheTramp]

Okie. I know I'm not a girl, and in most cases it is the girls who have this to worry about, rather than the guys (although, I do have this really nasty story that I'm not posting on here). But this is the advice I always offer.....

If you really do not like dancing with a guy. For whatever reason. Then DON'T. Say no. You're not turning them down just on a whim, you're turning them down for a good reason. After all, you're paying your money to enjoy yourself!!

The guy who is unwantedly sleazy with you Sheena, is also quite probably doing the same to every other girl in the room. And while it won't affect you that badly, he then does it to the girl who is at the dance for her first time. And she doesn't come back, just because of him.

Not only would I suggest that you say no, I would also suggest that you talk to some of the other ladies, and if it's not just you, but the other ladies feel the same way, then you should talk to the person running the night.

It might just be that he doesn't realise that just because one person (who you usually know and trust) can do that move with you, that he doesn't have the right to then do it too (this applies to drops and lifts too), and a quiet word (which should be done by the person running the night) will save all the hassles. Or he might just be nastily sleazy, in which case the organiser needs to be made aware so that he can be asked to leave. There really isn't room for that sort of thing at dances.

Steve

[Dance Demon]

Spot on Steve....
my good lady often tells me about guys who are just a bit too sleazy...and about conversations she has had with other ladies about such guys. IMHO there is a difference between cool & sleazy, but unfortunately there are some guys who think they are one and the same thing.
Personally, I find it hard to understand why guys would want to be this way. Even if they are attracted to a specific lady, it is more likely to put them off if they start giving it all the suggestive stuff. Different if it is someone that you know really well, and is happy to join in in a jokey sort of way.
So Sheena,.....be polite but firm....and if they can't accept that, and get all stroppy, a word with the organiser is the next step

[Graham W]

...agree about the Blues not being sleaze..Over & Out

[Wendy]

Thanks Sheena for bringing this up.... it's a tricky one... but have been thinking for ages that it needs to be discussed....

I know the guy you mean. And sadly it took me a lot more than 4 or 5 dances to feel uncomfortable. It's only quite recently that I've just not felt quite right doing certain moves with him and since then have avoided him at classes. On Saturday, I was in such a good mood (I was on fire !) I asked him to dance. I was almost repulsed and actually pulled away from him at one point. I should have known better !!!

I'm still working on what is sleaze and when is a guy (or a girl)sleazy... will get back to you...

Wx

PS Didn't someone do a report/PhD or something about dance and discuss this ???

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by TheTramp

And while it won't affect you that badly, he then does it to the girl who is at the dance for her first time. And she doesn't come back, just because of him.

Steve

Thanks Steve and DD for your sound advice. I agree with the above - because I know it doesn't happen often - in my 4 years of dancing this is really only the second time it's been a recurring nightmare - but I hadn't thought about them putting off someone new.

Funny too, Wendy, that you know who I'm talking about - I've been to many other Glasgow parties and never been aware of this man - will be next time though :wink:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Sheena

I like dancing blues and as Sandy said in another post somewhere - there are some wonderfully sexy moves that can be done without being sleazy at all, if the mood and the music are right. Maybe it's just a chemistry thing :sorry

I think the music has a lot to do with it !!!! I know I feel very different dancing to a blues track than I do to Kylie... and I'm sure I dance differently... and I would dance differently even if I was dancing by myself...

One of the things I've noticed about "Sleazeman" is that he dances the same moves in the same way, looks at you in the same way to every single track. Some moves don't work to Kylie ....


I don't think it is just a chemistry thing*..... for me it's a trust thing..... a balance thing... a matching thing....

Wx

* This has only happened to me with 2/3 guys in 2 years. The first time was someone who did very close combs with me when I was a beginner and I pushed him away at one point cos I felt violated (maybe that's a bit strong... but I certainly felt he was invading my space !). The second was someone who kept giving me commands... sit now... bend now.... etc etc.... he wasn't exactly sleazy but I felt as if I was being totally dominated. And the third is "Sleazeman".

[TheTramp]

Sadly, I think it's a little more prevalent down here.

But thankfully not much more. I think that most people come to dance, just the odd few who come for something else....

Steve

[Divissima]

If you really do not like dancing with a guy. For whatever reason. Then DON'T.

I think this is the right approach. It isn't always easy to say no without appearing rude, and as nice girls we generally hate to be rude or unkind, but the fact of the matter is, they take advantage of our good natures by dancing in an unacceptable way. They probably count on the fact that, as nice girls, we won't complain or make a scene and sometimes will accept a follow-on dance so they can over-step the mark all over again.


You're not turning them down just on a whim, you're turning them down for a good reason. After all, you're paying your money to enjoy yourself!

There are some men I will avoid through whatever means - and if they still manage to ask me to dance, I'll say no. Sometimes I'm more courageous than others and just say no - and other times, I make up an excuse (feeble or otherwise). The last time I did this, the man in question looked most ticked off - but he got the idea and hasn't been near me since.

Now it isn't strictly nice girl behaviour, but it means your evening out isn't blemished by the bottom-dwellers.....

[horsey_dude]

Originally posted by TheTramp

If you really do not like dancing with a guy. For whatever reason. Then DON'T. Say no. You're not turning them down just on a whim, you're turning them down for a good reason. After all, you're paying your money to enjoy yourself!!


Steve

I agree, most people have a pretty good idea of what is appropriate and what isn't, if everyone turns him down with a look of disgust then he will surely get the message eventually. This is a really sore point with me because back home we had our own "mr sleaze" and many women stopped coming class and parties because of him. If it was my business I would have given him warning about it and then banned him.

[horsey_dude]

I went to the hammersmith dance on Saturday and I noticed that very few (well virtually no one) was doing any dips, leans or close moves. There were very skillful dancers but they were just not doing those things. If a song like "fever" (the slow, sexy one comes on) and if I am dancing with someone who is obviously a very experienced dancer then that is how I will dance it. The same goes for boppy, bouncey songs, or fast frantic songs etc. Now I wonder if anyone I danced with (and I was being very restrained) went home thinking "oh my god, what was that sleazy guy thinking?". I think it makes it look so much better if the couple dancing are looking at each other in a flirty, cheeky, serious or whatever way then it make it so much better. Its just dancing! It doesn't mean anything else. If you are going to do a seducer at some dramatic point in the music then bringing the woman in, looking her right in the eye before "seducing" her takes something that could be dull and mechanical and makes it much more interesting.

Any women who dances with me, please feel free to say "look, you are being far too sleazy" and I will adjust me dancing.

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Divissima
They probably count on the fact that, as nice girls, we won't complain or make a scene and sometimes will accept a follow-on dance so they can over-step the mark all over again.

So agree with you on this !! And funnily enough the guy Sheena and I were talking about does ask for several dances in a row ... he must think he's onto a goodun !!!

Being a taxi dancer also makes it more difficult not to be a nice girl. I try to be friendly and welcoming to every newcomer... but sometimes I wonder if this is wise... if they are giving me the creeps do I really want them to come back ???? And I am really doing CEROC as a whole a favour ????

I'd be interested to hear what Franck has to say about this....

Wxx

[Wendy]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
If a song like "fever" (the slow, sexy one comes on) and if I am dancing with someone who is obviously a very experienced dancer then that is how I will dance it. Now I wonder if anyone I danced with (and I was being very restrained) went home thinking "oh my god, what was that sleazy guy thinking?". I think it makes it look so much better if the couple dancing are looking at each other in a flirty, cheeky, serious or whatever way then it make it so much better. Its just dancing!..Any women who dances with me, please feel free to say "look, you are being far too sleazy" and I will adjust me dancing.

This is also true for me. I danced to a track the other night which I love (a really yummy bluesy one) with this guy who (I discovered later ) "never got to dance to records like that "...... I think he might've been shocked and pleased at the same time.... He might have gone away thinking "what an old slapper" for all I know !!! And thinking about it I probably shouldn't have danced with him as I didn't know him very well...

The other problem about dancing in a sexy/flirty/cheeky way to a particular track is that others see you doing this and assume that you always dance like that when in fact it's a combination of the music and the person you are dancing with. (That's why I have a BTC team and sounds like you'd be in it Horsey Dude :D )

Wxxx

[Franck]

Originally posted by Wendy
I'd be interested to hear what Franck has to say about this.... Happy to oblige Wendy.

I agree with everything that has been said, if a guy is always dancing in an uncomfortable / sleazy way, you do not have to say yes when he asks for a dance. We all want to be nice and always say yes, but as the Tramp says, you are not turning anyone away on a whim...

The constructive thing would be to tell them that their dancing is sleazy (though uncomfortable might be a better word), as I am sure they are aware they are dancing too close, but maybe not of how unpleasant it is for their partners, especially with all this talk of BTC / blues etc...
This unfortunately is very hard to do, so maybe the best thing is to have a word with the teacher on the night, asking them to bring up 'personal space' and 'sleaze' in the class as a key point, emphasizing the inapropriateness of it.

If that message does not get across and multiple refusals do not get the message across then a more direct approach would be required... Let me know next time we're in Glasgow... :nice:

Franck.

[Wendy]

Thanks, Franck.

Wxx

[Divissima]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
I went to the hammersmith dance on Saturday and I noticed that very few (well virtually no one) was doing any dips, leans or close moves.[/Q]

We don't get taught so many dips or leans over here - I think we had a chat about this on the night - it took me ages to feel happy doing them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by horsey_dude
Now I wonder if anyone I danced with (and I was being very restrained) went home thinking "oh my god, what was that sleazy guy thinking?". I think it makes it look so much better if the couple dancing are looking at each other in a flirty, cheeky, serious or whatever way then it make it so much better. Its just dancing! It doesn't mean anything else.

Don't worry - I doubt anyone will have taken it the wrong way. A few close moves and some flirty glances are a long way removed from unnecessary ... erm, how to say this... rubbing (eeewwwwwww!) and clamping a lady waaaay to close for waaaaay to long with no hope of escape till the end of the music


Originally posted by horsey_dude
Any women who dances with me, please feel free to say "look, you are being far too sleazy" and I will adjust me dancing.

Nooooo - Horsey Dude, you were awesome :kiss:
Please come back and dance with me some more.... :wink:

[newby]

Steve suggested the sleaze thing might put first timers off. I've been to 4 beginners classes and was starting to think I must be too old for this! While the friend I go to classes with agrees that a couple of guys get closer than she would like she seems able to shrug it (or them!) off. I do a quick head count to see who am partnering next - either a sigh of relief or the shivers. I know we're meant to look at each other as we dance and just have some fun but I wouldn't want to give certain guys the wrong idea - like I'm enjoying this!?! Fortunately we don't dance with any one partner for too long but as I get more comfortable with my surroundings and more familiar with faces and the basic steps, I am also becoming a little more confident in myself and a bit less tolerant with the pelvic thrusts - creeps beware!

[Stubob]

This happened at a LeRoc venue I used to attend over in Fife about 2-3 years ago. Several complaints reached the venue manager about the way a certain individual was dancing with the ladies, the gentleman in question was subsequently asked to leave and not to return.

IMHO this is the only way to deal with that sort of behaviour.

Stubob

[horsey_dude]

There is a woman who I sometimes dance with in New Zealand who I have had to edit out certain combinations of moves with. We do "The Manhatten" two ways. 1. Like a ball room or latin dance where you have a big gap and you maintain a frame to lead the move and 2. there is no gap and the man leads with his hip and his leg is between the womans legs. This one woman had somehow learned it where she would basically (and there is no subtle way to put this) hump your leg. I assume she was used to coming up from a layback where you sit on the mans leg and then going into a Manhatten and not straightening her legs... I couldn't bring myself to say anything so I just stay away fromthose moves. The other thing the I eventually noticed (stop reading now anyone who is easily shocked or offended) was that every time she danced with me her nipples would stick out and then go down when she got to the next person.... I am not sure what the male equivalent of this would be..??

[Gadget]

Just curious as to where the 'sexy' ends and the 'sleasy' begins?

It's easy to define when it goes beyond the slease into crude or rude; but isn't it dependant on the mood of the song and the dance-floor chemistry what is sleasy and what is not?
Eg. I would do some closer (sexy?) moves with some dancers, but never dream of doing them with others: Is the 'slease' tollerance for some people is higher than others? Does minor slease just equate to giving someone the creeps?

I agree that crude/rude dancers should be turned down flat - but should the same blanket refusal cover those that you just don't feel comfortable dancing with?

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by newby

Steve suggested the sleaze thing might put first timers off.

It did for me, but my friend talked me into coming back. Now I don't tolerate it at all, and have no qualms about saying NO to the offenders.

I know we're meant to look at each other as we dance and just have some fun but I wouldn't want to give certain guys the wrong idea - like I'm enjoying this!?

Then don't smile at all, and next time he asks for a dance say NO.

I am also becoming a little more confident in myself and a bit less tolerant with the pelvic thrusts - creeps beware!

Just as well my good friend RTB isn't here then !:innocent:
:D TT

[Dance Demon]

I remember when my wife Irene first started to dance, around four years ago, she told me that she was talking to a girl, who, on finding it was Irenes first night, told her the guys to avoid dancing with, because they were too sleazy. It would seem that there are one or two who have a bit of a rep. and most of the girls get to know who they are fairly quickly. If they all start avoidig them , maybe the sleazebags will stop attending(chose my words carefully there)

I find that I rarely dance with the same lady for more than one track, unless it has been a really good dance, in which case I might dance one more, but never three in a row. I may dance with the same person again later in the night, but unless they know the girl particularly well, I think several dances in a row should sound alarm bells in the girls head:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Stubob
This happened at a LeRoc venue I used to attend over in Fife about 2-3 years ago. Several complaints reached the venue manager about the way a certain individual was dancing with the ladies, the gentleman in question was subsequently asked to leave and not to return.

IMHO this is the only way to deal with that sort of behaviour.

Stubob

Have to agree. In my dark and distant past as a Ceroc Franchisee I eventually had to ban a club member (after several warnings) for inappropraite behaviour. What really shocked me though was what I found out afterwards. A couple of lasses revealed that he had made constant lewd comments and had practically groped them on several occasions.
Had I realised what he had actualt been up to I would have helped him off the premises by his throat .... unless one of the other chaps had beaten me to it. What was worse was why didn't the ladies say something
:confused:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Divissima
and as nice girls we generally hate to be rude or unkind, but the fact of the matter is, they take advantage of our good natures by dancing in an unacceptable way. They probably count on the fact that, as nice girls, we won't complain or make a scene and sometimes will accept a follow-on dance so they can over-step the mark all over again.



This is part of it ...

I'm not a wild feminist but my sister would probably say it is only fairly recently that women don't get locked up in loony bins for being raped or that we don't hear "she was asking for it with that skirt on" .....

We are trusting, we don't expect it, we aren't encouraged to go with our instincts so we question ourselves...no he didn't... I must be imagining it... we blame ourselves.... we have to kiss people when we are wee and told to "be nice" .....

Wxxx

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gus
A couple of lasses revealed that he had made constant lewd comments and had practically groped them on several occasions.
Had I realised what he had actualt been up to I would have helped him off the premises by his throat .... unless one of the other chaps had beaten me to it. What was worse was why didn't the ladies say something
:confused:

Speaking for myself, I left ceroc after a few months because I was being harrassed/groped by a taxi dancer in Edinburgh, and was too scared to mention it -

1. I was a beginner and because I didn't really know anyone, I was afraid that no one would believe me, afterall, taxi dancers should be, or are supposed to be reputable.

2. I didn't want to cause a fuss, or to be seen clyping on someone. Who knows how these creeps will react when they find out your responsible for them being thrown out ?
So I took the easy option and left. If it wasn't for my friend, constantly coaxing me to return, I would not be going to ceroc today.

But you do have a good point, maybe us ladies should group together and get rid of the groper at present in Edinburgh, who constantly brushes his hands accross bottoms and boobs, and then has the cheek to say "oh sorry" as if it was a mistake. Unfortunately the creep does this on far too many occasions with all sorts of women. I personally just avoid him and just say no thanks when he asks for a dance.
TT

[Wendy]

Now I've started....

I can just imagine the courtroom scene...

Judge - So describe the move that you claim to be "sleazy" Ms Law ?

Wendy - The one when he ....

J- Please show the court ??

W - (Shows the court ....)

J- Well (clear throat) ! Have you found this move to be "sleazy" with other men ?

W - Erm ... no ....

J- And you are in the habit of doing this move with other men ?

W - Erm... yes...

J- In fact would you go as far as to say that you actually enjoy this move with other men ??

W - Erm... yes....

J- So how is a man to know that it is crossing your (clearly confused) boundaries Ms Law, when on the one hand you claim that these moves are "sleazy" but on the other hand, you claim that you thoroughly enjoy them......

W - :confused: but....

J- Case dismissed ! And Ms Law maybe if you toned down your dancing a little ..... (under breath - wiggling in that fashion tut tut) .....

Wxxx

[Gus]

Originally posted by Wendy
Now I've started....

I can just imagine the courtroom scene...

Judge - So describe the move that you claim to be "sleazy" Ms Law ?



OK ... lets look at this. In the US I believe that what we refer to as groping is a form of 'rape' ... same rules apply, it is a sexual act that is non-consentual. I may like my girlfriend to dance with her hand on my butt .... I'm not in the habit of extending that right to any (OK ... many) other lasses and I would not act favourably if someone I didn't know tried the same trick.

There is a world of difference to dancing very close to someone to them putting tehir hands on your boobs and 'coping a feel'! Forget the dance thing, thats actualy a criminal act and the Franchisee must be told to stop it happeneing to any other lasses and to stop the club coming into disrepute.

A key selling point for me about Ceroc was that its a place where single lasses could come and be safe and feel secure. Anything that works against that deserves direct action. Fair comment?

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Gus

A key selling point for me about Ceroc was that its a place where single lasses could come and be safe and feel secure. Anything that works against that deserves direct action. Fair comment?

Absolutely ! It is a safe place, a very safe place. And it is a tiny minority who fall into the category we have been talking about.

Wxxx

[bigdjiver]

I have always believed that, if you really do not want to dance with a particular person, for any reason, you should just say "No, thank-you"

I also believe that you should report bad behaviour to the franchisee. If in a doubt situation, watch the reactions of other partners, and consult them.

In eight years I have only known of one such case, and the perpetrator was banned. That being said I had seen ladies almost fighting to dance with him. He was also a superb stylist.

[Alfie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gus

There is a world of difference to dancing very close to someone to them putting tehir hands on your boobs and 'coping a feel'! Forget the dance thing, thats actualy a criminal act and the Franchisee must be told to stop it happeneing to any other lasses and to stop the club coming into disrepute.

Hi All,
Thats O.K. as long as the Franchisee is prepared to do somthing about this sort of behavior. There are some who like to turn a blind eye to this type of thing.
Alot of women would be too embarrassed to actually make a big thing about being abused on the dance floor and would rather stay away from or change venue or companies. I know this to be the case as it has happened to a couple of lady freinds of ours.

[Jon]

What has been said is very true and it's easy to spot the sleezy guys as they tend to dance multiple dances with the same girl. Theyre probably thinking theyre on to a winner or something.

On the other foot though as a guy not all women are 'nice girls!'. I accept on the dance floor accidents do happen and a hand or arm can brush an inappropriate place and once during a dance I can forgive a second time usually will get a glare back at the lady and possibly a little comment. This usually does the trick. As a taxi dancer I feel comfortable responding to this sort of behaviour.

The only time this is acceptable is when you really know your partner WELL and your both up for it but then its not sleezy it's up close n personal!!.

[CJ]

firstly, TT. I am so sorry for what happened in Edin. I am aware of 2 sleazy taxi's but am unaware of there current status.

If anyone @ any of the nights I attend feel they are being sleazed but don't want to approach Franchisee/ VM, come and speak to me. I'm an intelligent sensitive guy.:what: Seriously, would hate any of that stuff to be going on on my patch!! Would ensure it was dealt with sensitively, but firmly.

Wearing the other sandal on my best foot... have felt somewhat sleazed in my time. I think it is easier to deal with as a guy cos, as leader (in theory), we can chose the moves albeit not always the space. Was kind of tough because as a DJ, I'm not really in position to say no. OK, could site technical reason's for not leaving my cage, but would feel really naff doing so.

Was interesting, tho.:wink: :rolleyes:

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
firstly, TT. I am so sorry for what happened in Edin. I am aware of 2 sleazy taxi's but am unaware of there current status.

If anyone @ any of the nights I attend feel they are being sleazed but don't want to approach Franchisee/ VM, come and speak to me. I'm an intelligent sensitive guy.:what: Seriously, would hate any of that stuff to be going on on my patch!! Would ensure it was dealt with sensitively, but firmly.

Thanks CJ, that's very kind of you. I shall give it some serious thought and pass on your message to anyone else concerned.

:cheers:

:hug:

[TheTramp]

Would ensure it was dealt with sensitively, but firmly.By firmly, he means with a baseball bat :rolleyes:

Steve

[Grant]

Originally posted by TheTramp
By firmly, he means with a baseball bat :rolleyes:

Steve

And the sensitive part would be where he stops the music and loudly abuses the guy so everybody knows whats going on :D

Grant

[TheTramp]

Something like that.

He's the very soul of sensitivity is our CJ :D

Steve

[Wendy]

Originally posted by TheTramp


He's the very soul of sensitivity is our CJ :D



Yeh, his "I hear voices and they don't like you " T shirt pretty much highlights that !!! I hope Desmond never saw it - here I was trying to give him such a warm Glasgow welcome....

Wxxx

[TheTramp]

I saw a t-shirt today that said 'I don't kiss Mingers'.

I didn't buy it though. Maybe I should have got it for CJ :D

Steve

[Wendy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I saw a t-shirt today that said 'I don't kiss Mingers'.



Is a minger like a bint ????

Wxxx

[TheTramp]

Ummm.

Not really.

A minger would be an ugly bird :rolleyes:

Steve

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Wendy
Is a minger like a bint ????

Wxxx

Probably only if she was a mingin' bint:D

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Probably only if she was a mingin' bint:D

Mingin' where I come from is smelly ...

Wxx

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Wendy
Mingin' where I come from is smelly ...

Wxx
Didn't know you came from Mingin' Wendy....where exactly is this and why is it smelly?....:wink:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Didn't know you came from Mingin' Wendy....where exactly is this and why is it smelly?....:wink:

And here I was planning to go to Route 66....:sick:
:wink:

Wxxx

[Dance Demon]

Oops....sorry:sorry i must have read the punctuation wrong:D

Hope i havn't put you off coming to R66..look forward to seeing you:hug:

[Twinkle Toes]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Oops....sorry:sorry i must have read the punctuation wrong:D

Hope i havn't put you off coming to R66..look forward to seeing you:hug: That was a quick change of tune ... crawler :D

... and remember, you can't insult me until after Friday. :wink:

:cheers:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Oops....sorry:sorry i must have read the punctuation wrong:D

Hope i havn't put you off coming to R66..look forward to seeing you:hug:

See other thread...

Wxxx

[CJ]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm.

Not really.

A minger would be an ugly bird :rolleyes: I always thought that a minger could be of either sex, but the fremale minger was a good 3 steps past the ugly bird...

Ugly bird
There goes a "great personality!!"
ouch
minger.:sorry

Difference between a fox and a hound????????

4 pints.:devil:

[Chicklet]

Back on thread a bit - the guy mentioned at the top here was there and true to form last night - did you get a clock at him CJ?

[CJ]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Back on thread a bit - the guy mentioned at the top here was there and true to form last night - did you get a clock at him CJ? Yeah, had him pointed out. I know him already. Long story. Know he is fairly thick skinned, so refusal would not, I feel, result in overly bashed ego.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Back on thread a bit - the guy mentioned at the top here was there and true to form last night - did you get a clock at him CJ?

You are not a shy bird, judging by some of your comments here! Did you say anything to him?

Grant

[Bill]

Just caught up with this thread and although some of it has been discussed before it is a VERY important topic and one that unfortunately does keep cropping up.

The difference between sleaze and sexy ?? :confused: well I'd suggest it's merely the the intention and the relationship between the twoi dancers.

As several folk here have pointed out there are a number of moves a male should only do with women he knows well but of course when a man sees another man dancing in a particular way he may feel that the woman likes dancing with all men in the same way.

I'm aware at times how Lorna and I can 'ham' up some moves and overplay the possible sensual side of some moves when on stage but hopefully we have fun and Lorna keeps repeating ( for those who listen) that these moves should not be done on beginners or women the men don't know.

I love 'blues' dancing where some moves can be very close but you can be close and not too intimate but some moves can be very sexy without being very close at all. It's not always how close two people are but the way they dance - together :wink: .

V&L can look sexy even when several feet apart. So I would urge all female dancers to say no to any man they feel is sleazy or deliberatley gropes or touches them. Perhaps if all women say no the individual might get the message and leave. Failing that please tell the venue manager and the teacher who should deal with it. If it's a taxi dancer then I'd urge Franck or Scot to ban him from all Ceoc venues :reallymad :mad:

[Gary]

Originally posted by Bill
The difference between sleaze and sexy ?? :confused: well I'd suggest it's merely the the intention and the relationship between the two dancers.Agreed. I kind of rely on the girl's "sixth sense" to pick up that my intentions are purely dancing. Mostly I'm concentrating too much on music and "girl as dancer" to even notice "girl as girl". When I do find I'm "noticing" a girl, I actually take a step or two back in the closeness of moves ('cause I get embarrassed and clumsy).
... but of course when a man sees another man dancing in a particular way he may feel that the woman likes dancing with all men in the same way.What the? Only if he's stoopid, surely?
... but you can be close and not too intimate but some moves can be very sexy without being very close at all. It's not always how close two people are but the way they dance - together :wink: . Also very much agreed. I think a lot of guys are "scared" to get a closer hold on the girls, which is a shame because a number of moves don't work as well unless you've got good contact with the girl.

For me the sexiest part of dancing (with "the one") is eye contact, and that can be from a metre away.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
I'm aware at times how Lorna and I can 'ham' up some moves ~snip~ and Lorna keeps repeating ( for those who listen) that these moves should not be done on beginners or women the men don't know.
I think that we are only talking about a very small minority who are 'sleasy', and I very much doubt those same people would listen to anything; just watch and try it on.

[TheTramp]

As Gadget says, it's like the people who don't listen when you say about not doing airsteps and dips. What they don't want to hear, they won't listen to.

I think that the only way to rectify this sort of thing, is for the venue manager to have some words. And if that doesn't work, then asking them to leave might well be the only solution.

Of course, if the venue manager doesn't know about it, then they can't do anything. And if it happens to you, and you're not prepared to do anything about it, then there's not a lot of point in moaning about it.

Steve

[Twinkle Toes]

Originally posted by Bill
The difference between sleaze and sexy ?? :confused: well I'd suggest it's merely the intention and the relationship between the two dancers.DITTO.
I would urge all female dancers to say no to any man they feel is sleazy or deliberatley gropes or touches them. Perhaps if all women say no the individual might get the message and leave. Failing that please tell the venue manager and the teacher who should deal with it. If it's a taxi dancer then I'd urge Franck or Scot to ban him from all Ceroc venues :reallymad :mad: DITTO ... All ladies should take note and apply accordingly.

:cheers:

[Chicklet]

Thanks to all the wise words here I for one was all keyed up to refuse the Glasgow sleazy guy last night and he didn't show!!!!!!

Maybe he reads the Forum after all!!
Actually I doubt it.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I noticed no one is suggesting a "News of the World" style naming and shaming - is that too harsh in this case ?

[Chicklet]

Maybe that's because we all ran away really quickly after dancing with him BEFORE he could tell us his name....(number, inside leg measurement and what he likes the little laydees to cook him for breakfast in the morning:what: :sick:

[Dreadful Scathe]

I wasnt talking about that guy in particular, although there will be people who know who he is I imagine :)

[Franck]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I noticed no one is suggesting a "News of the World" style naming and shaming - is that too harsh in this case ? I would not want to go down that route... The Forum could get into trouble and I would remove such posts. Personal attacks (however deserved) do not belong on a public forum.

I would however be very happy to take direct action on the night (having a word / banning them)

Franck.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I agree - especially where it comes down to subjective opinion. Its an interesting topic though, as Ive no doubt that some 'sleazy' people have no idea that they are. Im sure all guys have done something innapropriate at one time or another whilst dancing usually by accident or by misjudging the partner or whatever.

Saying that - Id be mortified if Id ever been considered sleazy but its possible!

Then of course the followers will be made up by people with different ideas of 'sleaze' and what 'too much' is. Some of that will be down to the person you're dancing with - partly looks but probably more personality and behaviour.

I disagree with all 'Naming and Shaming' (typical tabloid tactic to sell papers whilst pretending to be taking the moral lead on our behalf) - without all the facts we are forced to jump to conclusions which is too easy to do.

But back to my previous post...does anyone disagree ? :)

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Im sure all guys have done something innapropriate at one time or another whilst dancing usually by accident or by misjudging the partner or whatever.
Really :innocent: ?
sounds like a prompt for another thread, but in the interests of forum continuity, I'll just hi-jack this one...

So what innocent innapropriate moments have you had on the dance floor then?

I have managed to accidentally head-but my partner's chest from below :sorry, but that's the only 'inappropriate moment' I can think on {just now...}

[Chicklet]

Also, what happens if someone is told they are being a sleaze and says they didn't realise and will mend their ways and pay attention to it - what happens then?

In most other real life situations I'm a wee softie and always believe in giving people a second chance but in this one???....

any thoughts on this??

C

[TheTramp]

Ummm. As DS said, I'm sure that some of the people (and I've changed it from just guys, since it's not a one-way thing) who are being sleazy don't realise that their actions are inappropriate, and a warning from the venue manager that this is the case will be enough.

Of course, if they don't then change, further action may unfortunately become necessary.

Steve

[Chicklet]

And another thing - we've heard a lot about what the girls consider sleazy when the men do it - so come on guys - any women ever given you unwanted "treatment"???:devil:

If so what did it consist of??


Just so that we know not to do it of course, not fishing for hints here!!!:innocent:

[TheTramp]

I actually have a really nasty story about dancing blues.

It's not postable here. Maybe I'll tell you about it one day :D

Steve

[Chicklet]

ooooh, maybe we'll find a quiet corner (the Welsh one tends to be kinda quiet doesn't it????:devil: ) and discuss further next weekend!!!!

C:innocent:

[SwingSwingSwing]

Originally posted by Chicklet
And another thing - we've heard a lot about what the girls consider sleazy when the men do it - so come on guys - any women ever given you unwanted "treatment"???:devil:

If so what did it consist of??



I got my bum squeezed by a woman at the end of dance once. Looking back it seems trivial but at the time I was taken aback.

A few months ago, Elsie managed to punch me in the doo-dahs during a dance. It was a total accident which we laughed off.

SwingSwingSwing

[TheTramp]

Ummm. The Welsh corner quiet? Perhaps you'd better go tell them that!! Until Scotland took over this year, it was always the Welsh corner that made the most noise at Blackpool. It's always the English people that are reserved and quiet (boring).

From what's on the London forum, it looks like there will be lots of quiet corners at Chiswick :( They obviously haven't heard of Franck's reputation! I'll try preaching the gospel of Franck over the next few days.

A few months ago, Elsie managed to punch me in the doo-dahs during a dance. It was a total accident which we laughed off.Is that what Elsie told you SSS?

And you believed her?? :na:

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

I've had complete strangers attach themselves to me like limpits - a bit too close for comfort. Ive also had 'do you come here often' type speeches during a dance - i hate that :). (only twice that i can think of in 3 years so its not like im blowing my own trumpet or anything).

And as we're naming and shaming Eslie - shes headbutted me right on the nose, i think it was my fault...not that i can remember anything :)

[TheTramp]

And as we're naming and shaming Eslie Well. Shaming her anyhow.

But, you were close DS :D

Steve

[SwingSwingSwing]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
And as we're naming and shaming Eslie - shes headbutted me right on the nose, i think it was my fault...not that i can remember anything :)

I was just thinking of the logistics on this one. Were you crouching down or was Elsie airborne?

SwingSwingSwing

[TheTramp]

She had to climb onto a chair just so that she could get him.

Had 2 people to help hold him in place!!

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

indeed :)

I dance very low with Elsie most of the time - so i was at her height :)

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chicklet
Also, what happens if someone is told they are being a sleaze and says they didn't realise and will mend their ways and pay attention to it - what happens then?

In most other real life situations I'm a wee softie and always believe in giving people a second chance but in this one???....


I agree that everyone should be given a second chance, but come on, who are we kidding here.
I for one am not talking about the rare accidents that do occur between both gents and ladies, I am talking about the persistent abusers here and only them. I don't think for one minute that the guys I was referring to earlier in the thread didn't know what they were, and still are doing. ( although not with me because I just don't go near them) These guys are the real MacCoy and after much thought, from now on, I intend to make the appropriate noises in the right places. :mad:

... and that should apply to any male who feels they have been insulted also. :mad:

:cheers: TT

[Chicklet]

GO TWINKLE!!!!!:D :D :D :D

A united girlie front!!!!

I have one mildly amusing story to tell in this kind of line but it's only verbal (that's verbal Trampie not oral:devil: :innocent: )

My dad (who's a dancer but not often seen at Ceroc things)
came face to face with a girl in a class who was wearing a t-shirt that said


"no i'm not married
no i don't have a boyfriend
no i don't fancy you
or your mate"


he glanced at it, as you do, and she made a big thing of coming over all stroppy and said "so do you read me eh" with a scowl.

now my father is NOT a sleaze, he's a mild mannered gent who wouldn't generally wish to offend ANYONE but he's no woos either and his reply was

"no hen I can't read I'm just looking at your t*ts"

he smiled genuinely and assumed the arm jive position

Now the moral of this story for me is simply that girls who don't want their t-shirts read shouldn't wear readable t-shirts or was his reply over the top?

C

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chicklet
"no hen I can't read I'm just looking at your t*ts"

he smiled genuinely and assumed the arm jive position

Now the moral of this story for me is simply that girls who don't want their t-shirts read shouldn't wear readable t-shirts or was his reply over the top?

C

LOL :D :D :D

Perfect answer !!!

TT

[TheTramp]

Quite agree. If you don't want your chest stared at, doing put things there for people to read :D

Of course, even if you don't, it's quite possible that your chest will get stared at anyhow. Least, that's what I've been told. :devil:

I got a great new t-shirt last week. I'll wear it Saturday night :na:

Steve

[Chicklet]

IMHO, Chest staring is so common that it almost doesn't warrant a mention under sleaze....there are LOADS of men that do this for "eye" contact (more like "AYE" contact haha:wink: ) but again maybe cos we're used to it outside the dance environment it doesn't feel so threatening. And I have to say I don't feel the majority are doing it deliberately....or are you???


Girls??other views?

[Aleks]

Coming from a family where the females all have considerable assets, I am fortunate to be able to laugh it off when I catch someone taking a peek (and it's not just the men!). I have also been known to deliberately wear a t-shirt with VERY small writing on the front.........do many women find it offensive to be "noticed"? I'd rather be noticed than overlooked (but you all know that already!).

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Aleks
Coming from a family where the females all have considerable assets,

Can't say I'd noticed Aleks:wink: too busy looking into your lovely eyes!!:grin: :hug: :kiss:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Chicklet
I don't feel the majority are doing it deliberately....or are you??? I do deliberately look at the lady - so that I know where she is, what she is doing, and most importantly what I can get her to do next. To get the best idea of this, I look at her body - not her hands, or her feet, or her eyes. I don't do it all the time - just when I need to.

This gets more important as the ladies start to do more improvisation. The last thing I want to do is to drag her into the next move when she has just started to do something interesting.

Looking at the lady is something that gets taught in West Coast Swing, and I find it difficult to dance any other way. However I am very aware that this can look like I'm staring at her chest. I was once given the following tips:

- Use your peripheral vision if you can.
- If you know the lady is doing something, you don't need to keep watching. Look her in the eyes, and listen to the music.
- Keep your head up. Then at least everyone else doesn't think you are just getting an eyeful.
- If you do a lunge, or a dip, or anything that brings your eyes down to the same height as her chest, make a definite point of looking up. All it takes is one friend to take a photo...
- If you are doing anything close, then don't look down. You know where she is - you have probably got your hand on her back. And if you look down, you are only going to see (two?) thing.

David

(Sorry for being on-topic. Maybe I need a workshop...)

[wongd]

I'm confused. Going Back to Sheena's original point: Sleazy moves. I've been taught sleazy moves by a number of CEROC teachers. Many of the moves are particularly suitable for slower sexy music (I'm thinking Straight to Number 1 or Tango in Harlem -Touch and Go) - . If it causes so much offence, why do CEROC venues teach it. Some CEROC teachers do not emphasisze the point that the move should only be done with someone you know.

I have also found marked variations in what women at each venue find acceptable. A good barometer of initmacy is the slow manspin (this is the variation where the woman walks round the bloke, whilst the bloke wriggles there hips or adds a standing spin whilst the woman continues to walk round the bloke with one hand caressing the blokes waist). In Daventry I found more woman happier to leave the hand where it should be whilst in London venues on average, it's removed more quickly (thus spoling the look of the move completely).

I'm told that the teacher of a venue can have a great influence on the intimacy Tolerance level. Where the teacher really makes a point that this is all done in the best possible taste and should be hammed up as much as possible, women are more likely to play along with the mans lead. On the other hand blokes who execute these moves should be sensitive to their partners needs. If they make them feel uncomfortable (and you can discern this quite quickly), then you should get out of the sleazy move as quickly as possible and return to the arm jive (gurantteed a non-initimate move).

[Dance Demon]

Just thinking about Aleks' comment about "considerable assets" and was thinking that, guys dance with loads of different women in a night, all of whom are diferent heights, and sizes. Sometimes you have to remember to tailor certain moves for the partner you are dancing with. e.g. certain moves , like combs etc, are more likely to cause you to make contact with a woman with a larger bust. It can also be quite difficult if such women are wearing low cut tops. Mostly you try not to look, but it is hard not to sometimes. On such occasions, it doesn't mean you're a perv,.......just a healthy warm blooded male:D

[Emma]

Originally posted by wongd
I'm confused. Going Back to Sheena's original point: Sleazy moves. I've been taught sleazy moves by a number of CEROC teachers. Many of the moves are particularly suitable for slower sexy music (I'm thinking Straight to Number 1 or Tango in Harlem -Touch and Go) - . If it causes so much offence, why do CEROC venues teach it. Some CEROC teachers do not emphasisze the point that the move should only be done with someone you know.

I disagree that there is such a thing as a sleazy move - I think all moves have the potential to be sleazy or non sleazy depending upon how they are danced. For instance the move I've had trouble with in the past was a side-to-side step across - when the guy I was dancing with had a bit of trouble identifying my waist.....thought it was somewhat lower than it actually is :reallymad. Now with 99.9% of men this move would be entirely innocent.



I'm told that the teacher of a venue can have a great influence on the intimacy Tolerance level. Where the teacher really makes a point that this is all done in the best possible taste and should be hammed up as much as possible, women are more likely to play along with the mans lead.
I think you're absolutely right about this one.

It's also important to make the point once again that the complaints about sleaze apply to a tiny tiny *tiny* proportion of dancing chaps (and girls as well, I guess). In the year and a bit that I've been dancing I think I've been made to feel uncomfortable twice. Once was someone I shall no doubt never meet again, and the other was someone I know. He just gets as wide a berth as I can manage nowadays.

It's hard to refuse dances when you are starting out and any offer of a dance feels like a huge compliment, but I do think refusing the very few sleazebags (and reporting them to someone who can do something about it) is the only way to go

[Bill]

Originally posted by Emma
I disagree that there is such a thing as a sleazy move - I think all moves have the potential to be sleazy or non sleazy depending upon how they are danced.


Agree with you Emma. Anda s I said I think it does depend on the intention behind the move. Any move can be made to look or feel sleazy if the man (or woman) is thinking about touching rather than dancing.

I often do what might be described as sleazy moves but I'm always careful to ensure that there is appropriate space bewteen me and my partner. Anyone who teaches blues or up-close and-personal moves always emphasises that contact is with the knee and lower thigh. And ceroc teachers keep reminding men where the woman's waist is.

I did once touch a woman's breast when dancing - at Blackpool 2 years ago - but as I was spinning I didn't realsie what I'd touched until I stopped and saw her expression. I hadn't danced with her before but I think from my expression and me going red she guessed it was an accident.

AS most women have now indicated - it's not the odd accident that's the problem it's the male who constantly puts a hand in the wrong place that's the problem. But fortunately it's only a very few men who do this.

Let's all have fun but be careful eh !!!!:what: :rolleyes:

maybe I should stop those close moves just in case ????? Then again, might as well stop dancing:D :wink:

[Bill]

Originally posted by DavidB
I do deliberately look at the lady - so that I know where she is, what she is doing, and most importantly what I can get her to do next. To get the best idea of this, I look at her body - not her hands, or her feet, or her eyes. I don't do it all the time - just when I need to.



David

You are such a nice guy and such a lovley dancer that no woman would possibly think you were looking at her in an inappropriate way.

But if you did...........the woman would tell Lily and then you'd be in trouble !!!!:D :na:

[wongd]

Ok confusion on my part. The following two moves are called sleazy in my neck of the woods:

1. Bodyroll: Boy stands directly behind girl; there is no gap between front of man, back of girl - this move can not be executed with a "comfortable safe distance between partenrs, else it looks naffs" - squats, this actions causes his bent knees to push in to the back of the girsl knees causing her to bend the knees also. They ripple their torsos in unison, leg, then backside then upper body
2. Granada Grand Mangler: which is too hard to describe at this time of night but roughly ends with the man standing beind the women, arms wrapped round the front of the girl

Are they actually called Sexy moves, but made sleazy by blokes with dishonourable intentions.

I know that you will be visted by a CEROC teacher who has a reputation for creating routines based on latino/intimate moves. Be interesting know whether they are categorised as intrinsically sleazy or sexy.

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill

AS most women have now indicated - it's not the odd accident that's the problem it's the male who constantly puts a hand in the wrong place that's the problem. But fortunately it's only a very few men who do this.

Exactly !

Let's all have fun but be careful eh !!!!:what: :rolleyes:

Definitely !

maybe I should stop those close moves just in case ????? Then again, might as well stop dancing:D :wink:

Don't you dare !

Before all you gents get paranoid, we ladies are talking about 1 in a hundred. That's probably why we tolerate it to a degree ! :sorry
But it is unfortunate that these creeps do spoil it for some people, to the extent that it becomes very uncomfortable and insulting.

... and apologies for blowing your trumpet again Bill, but you are one of the dancers who can carry out a sexy move without it being sleazy at all - you have always been the perfect gentleman and I for one have never once felt uncomfortable when dancing with you. So, stay :waycool:

The same applies to Roy the Boy. He is forever doing some unorthodox moves ( I think he makes them up himself) but we ladies know that it's all fun with him - the cheeky grin instead of the lecherous leer gives him away.

:waycool: TT

[bigdjiver]

The problem we all have is that we all have our own definition of what is sexy, sensual or sleazy. I have danced with young beginners girls and they simply could not bear being touched on the hip area. For them the first move is an unwelcome sexual assault. I have no problem seeing modern jive as an art form, a type of acting. I see my partner as a dancer, not as a woman. If I do start seeing them any other way I stop dancing with them. I am married, faithful and want to stay that way. There are moves in Modern Jive, which look sexy or sleazy, depending on your viewpoint, but there is a vital inch or so of separation which makes them, in my view, sensual instead. If any of you have seen "Cannery row" there is a scene where Nick Nolte dances with the heroine. They do the "pecking" move where the lady wraps her legs around the guys waist and they "peck" over alternate shoulders. I just regard that as a fun move, for me, not even sexy. I know that a majority would consider it sleazy. I have had to drop such moves from my repetoire awaiting the advent of another partner that sees it the same way. I think the dance scene is the poorer for it.

[TheTramp]

I had my bum groped (no other word for it) at Fulham last night.

By a forum member no less.

I feel sooooooo defiled.

:wink:

Steve

[Chicklet]

I've just re-read this whole thing again and wonder if this is a fair conclusion of points so far: (not that I'm trying to conclude discussions, please don't think that!!!!)


For the girls it's not WHAT it is but WHO it is????

If it's a guy they know well, anything is probably great,

If it's a guy they know by reputation to be a good dancer and a sound bloke then it's not in any way a problem and a good excuse to (in Bill's words was it?) ham it up

It's when it's a guy they DON'T know, who's intentions are therefore unclear THAT's when there's a problem.


So are all you lovely guys that we would trust to the ends of the earth (says me having met a grand total of about 4 of you!!!!! LOL) worrying needlessly about particular moves and doing them with everybody when all you need to think about really is how well do I know this girl??



Am I being far too simplistic????
:confused:

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I had my bum groped (no other word for it) at Fulham last night.

By a forum member no less.

I feel sooooooo defiled.

:wink:

Steve


I know he's a bit of a "special" :wink: case but is Steve kinda agreeing with the above by suggesting that this really wasn't a problem for him cos he knew her, (eeek I'm assuming it was a her!!!) so the boundaries of acceptable behaviour are different?

Cx

[TheTramp]

Ummm.....

Well, actually, I complained bitterly to her (yes, you were right about that) husband. But he didn't seem to care.

And yes, as previously states, the boundaries of acceptable behaviour are much different if you know (and trust, and I guess 'like' comes into it as well) the person.

Define special!! :na:

Steve

[Chicklet]

special as in special school???????:devil: :wink: :innocent: :kiss:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chicklet
special as in special school???????:devil: :wink: :innocent: :kiss: I love you too Chickie.

Just less and less with every passing day :hug: :na:

Steve

[Chicklet]

Well you must have known that would happen pretty soon after we got engaged eh?:D

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Well you must have known that would happen pretty soon after we got engaged eh?:D Good point!!

Should we break off the engagement for the sake of our friendship.

Or should we just go ahead and end up hating each other like every other married couple?

Damn. I'm such a cynic!! :D

Steve

[Chicklet]

Will we wait till after the Champs and accept all the lovely engagement pressies our chums will bring us??????

LOL:D

[TheTramp]

Oh yeah. Forgot the pressies.

Isn't that the only good reason for getting married/engaged? :wink:

Steve

[Franck]

Originally posted by Chicklet
For the girls it's not WHAT it is but WHO it is???? Nope Chicklet, I can't agree with that. :nice:
While some 'sexy' moves will feel magical with some partners and uncomfortable with other guys, based on whether you know / like them, this is not related to the 'sleaze' aspect.

My understanding is that a (very) small number of men use dancing as an excuse to touch women inapropriately and repetitively. Those men ususally don't bother to learn the nice sexy bluesy moves anyway but will use anything, and typically Beginners moves (First move, basket, etc...) to 'grope' their partners as if 'accidentally'. In that case, it should not matter whether you know them or not. As Bill says, the intention is key, if you are focused on the dance / move, then you are unlikely to be sleazy, but if you focus on touching / feeling your partner then you are not dancing any longer.

Franck.

[Emma]

Originally posted by Chicklet

For the girls it's not WHAT it is but WHO it is????
Hmm...more HOW it is, I'd say



It's when it's a guy they DON'T know, who's intentions are therefore unclear THAT's when there's a problem.
Doesn't have to be someone you don't know. In fact, I'd say from personal experience that it's worse with someone you do know. Someone you don't know is much easier to tell where to get off :)


(says me having met a grand total of about 4 of you!!!!! LOL) You have FOUR?!! :grin: :devil: :what:

[Twinkle Toes]

Originally posted by Franck
Nope Chicklet, I can't agree with that. :nice:
While some 'sexy' moves will feel magical with some partners and uncomfortable with other guys, based on whether you know / like them, this is not related to the 'sleaze' aspect.

My understanding is that a (very) small number of men use dancing as an excuse to touch women inapropriately and repetitively. Those men ususally don't bother to learn the nice sexy bluesy moves anyway but will use anything, and typically Beginners moves (First move, basket, etc...) to 'grope' their partners as if 'accidentally'. In that case, it should not matter whether you know them or not. As Bill says, the intention is key, if you are focused on the dance / move, then you are unlikely to be sleazy, but if you focus on touching / feeling your partner then you are not dancing any longer.

Franck. DITTO - DITTO - DITTO


TT

[Chicklet]

The plot thickens!!!!!!

All superb points.

Still hooked on this thread!!!!!

Keep em comin

Cx:D

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
certain moves , like combs etc, are more likely to cause you to make contact with a woman with a larger bust. It can also be quite difficult if such women are wearing low cut tops. Mostly you try not to look, but it is hard not to sometimes. On such occasions, it doesn't mean you're a perv,.......just a healthy warm blooded male:D

As I have already said, I don't even notice it any more. I'm far too busy dancing AND I don't want to stop wearing low cut t-shirts/dresses - it's far too hot and sweaty at Marco's to cover up (so I keep telling Luca) and I'm sure you'll agree DD!

[Rachel]

Funny, I've never really felt sleazed during a dance. No-one's done a move that's made me feel really uncomfortable, although every now and then I sometimes find myself thinking, Jesus, am I really doing this with a guy I don't know? But I guess I've been lucky with my partners and always felt it to be part of the dance - if anything, more funny than sleazy.

However, I find it's off the dancefloor that you have more problems and I still wear a wedding ring to Ceroc, even though I'm now separated, because guys will leave you alone more. For some reason, they seem to think they might have a good chance when you 'only' have a boyfriend as opposed to a husband.
Rachel

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Originally posted by Franck
While some 'sexy' moves will feel magical with some partners and uncomfortable with other guys, ....... if you are focused on the dance / move, then you are unlikely to be sleazy, but if you focus on touching / feeling your partner then you are not dancing any longer. Franck.

Hear hear Franck! Well put.

I am interested in the dynamics of the dancing relationship though. Lets say that an individual who is in a committed relationship finds their partner very attractive, perhaps enjoys flirting with them, there's suggestive body language, lots of deep eye contact, etc. Neither wishes to pursue any sort of relationship, but just enjoy the game (come on- we all have done this surely?). I guess their dancing will have a completely different edge, perhaps exciting, daring, passionate....

I know this is a different issue to 'sleaze', but do any of you have experience of this (and are bold anough to admit it)!

It happened to me about a year ago....

:sorry

[Stubob]

I have to re-iterate what I said earlier in this thread. If someone is acting inappropriately during a dance and you do not feel confident enought to tell them how you feel then inform the venue manager, who SHOULD deal with it.

How many dancers have Ceroc/LeRoc lost because of this kind of behaviour? Times that number by six and thats how much money venue's are losing; and not being too cynical but that's why the dance venue's are there, to make money.

Stuart

[Franck]

Originally posted by Stubob
How many dancers have Ceroc/LeRoc lost because of this kind of behaviour? Times that number by six and thats how much money venue's are losing; and not being too cynical but that's why the dance venue's are there, to make money. Hi Stuart,

I agree, Venue managers / teachers and I need to be told... I only realised there was a problem last week thanks to this thread (Thanks Sheena). I am quite happy to take the necessary steps to make sure either these individual are 'educated' as to what is or isn't appropriate, or kicked out of the night.

I am very concerned that we may have lost so many people to this problem (however rare it is), not so much because of lost income (I agree venues need to make money though) but because it saddens me greatly that some people are missing on the magic of partner dancing / Ceroc because of a 'sad' individual...
Please don't be shy in making a complaint, and if you don't want to approach the venue manager on the night to discuss it, feel free to email / PM me directly with details and I can assure you all complaints will be taken seriously.

Franck.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
Lets say that an individual who is in a committed relationship finds their partner very attractive, perhaps enjoys flirting with them, there's suggestive body language, lots of deep eye contact, etc. Neither wishes to pursue any sort of relationship, but just enjoy the game (come on- we all have done this surely?). I guess their dancing will have a completely different edge, perhaps exciting, daring, passionate...
You guess ? :innocent: :devil:
I thought that's what you should do on every dance?:confused:
It's all a game of display and chemistry - the 'elastic tension' should not just be in the physical hold, but in the body-language and "presence" as well. OK, so you should tone it down for beginners & people you don't know and ham it up for more experianced dancers, but it's a hell of a lot more fun dancing this way than just going through the moves :D :D .

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Gadget
You guess ? :innocent: :devil:
I thought that's what you should do on every dance?:confused:
It's all a game of display and chemistry - the 'elastic tension' should not just be in the physical hold, but in the body-language and "presence" as well. OK, so you should tone it down for beginners & people you don't know and ham it up for more experianced dancers, but it's a hell of a lot more fun dancing this way than just going through the moves :D :D .

OH YES - "legalised flirting".:wink:

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Gadget
So what innocent innapropriate moments have you had on the dance floor then?

Gadget, you brought back, ahem, warm memories :sorry of a Wednesday intermediate class about 3 years back. At the end of the class, I was paired with a very pretty young student from Russia.

Part of the routine involved a sway, and she was getting it all too right - despite my hand leading her in, then to the side, she didn't go to the side and added a wiggle as well. Tried several times to correct her (honestly, I did try - and can I point out that no other guy had tried to by this point... :eek: ). Had to drop the move once we started freestyling - I was enjoying things too much :devil:. Must have been a Russian thing, or maybe it was some novel variant on those bride-by-mail schemes...

Anyway, if Natasha/Natalia from Smolensk ever reads this, I think you made several guys very happy that night....


Originally posted by Franck
Those men ususally don't bother to learn the nice sexy bluesy moves anyway but will use anything, and typically Beginners moves (First move, basket, etc...) to 'grope' their partners as if 'accidentally'.
As my little incident above might demonstrate, I'd add the sway to Franck's list of basic 'opportunity' moves - men "forgetting" the out-to-side part of the hand movement, or women coming straight in back to front.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Stuart M
As my little incident above might demonstrate, I'd add the sway to Franck's list of basic 'opportunity' moves - men "forgetting" the out-to-side part of the hand movement, or women coming straight in back to front. Well, yes indeed, but I did not want to publish a complete list of moves you can use to become a sleaze :wink:

Natasha from Smolensk? Hmmm you :devil:

Franck.

[Divissima]

Originally posted by Stuart MI'd add the sway to Franck's list of basic 'opportunity' moves - men "forgetting" the out-to-side part of the hand movement, or women coming straight in back to front.The sway done as described together with the omission of the equivalent side-step stage of the basket are the two moves I have experienced most often from established Sleazes. You can tell it isn't accidental by the places where your bodies are in contact. :reallymad The first time it happens, you think it's a variation, but after a few times the realisation grows and you add the Sleaze to your 'avoid at all costs' list....
More recently I've had someone I encounter fairly often in lessons doing moves such as the first move as though my waist was about six inches lower than its actual level. And this was in lessons so it stayed there while the teacher demonsrated the next move!!!! I felt a bit embarrassed about asking him to move his hand from my bottom the first time but after the second and third times I realised it wasn't so accidental and told him rather more firmly to cut it out.
My worst sleaze moment cannot be published on the Forum - it was truly awful. And at the time I was too timid to say anything to the man involved.
I realise I'm maybe adding to the list Franck wants to avoid - in which case Franck please wield your Administrator's power and excise this post. On the other hand, it might be useful for less experienced dancers to know that such moves really aren't legitimate variations.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Divissima
I realise I'm maybe adding to the list Franck wants to avoid - in which case Franck please wield your Administrator's power and excise this post. On the other hand, it might be useful for less experienced dancers to know that such moves really aren't legitimate variations. hehe... wield my Admin powers Ooh-er... :wink:

Tempting as it may be, I think you explained very clearly how inapropriate those 'variations' can be!

The idea that these are done during the class is frightening, especially as some teachers *looks innocent* :innocent: tend to talk for what might seem like hours... Whoops... I'll make sure I move everyone around more often.

Franck.

P.S. Dear Divissima, I hope we can have a dance or 3 at the Champs (appropriate or not :wink: :devil: )

[Divissima]

The fabulous Franck wrote:P.S. Dear Divissima, I hope we can have a dance or 3 at the Champs (appropriate or not )
Ooooooh! Yes please!:wink: :waycool: :devil: :grin:
I can't wait :grin:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Franck
P.S. Dear Divissima, I hope we can have a dance or 3 at the Champs (appropriate or not :wink: :devil: ) Ummm.

So which one of you is going to be inappropriate??

Steve

[CJ]

Natasha from Smolensk:devil:



Ahhhhhhhh, those were the days......

Mmm. Had better retract that before I get myself into trouble!! Seriously, have never met her before in my life. And intend never to do so, again.:waycool:

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Franck
Natasha from Smolensk? Hmmm you :devil:
Well, Franck, I considered it only polite to exchange names afterward...:innocent:

[Divissima]

Impertinent Steve wrote:So which one of you is going to be inappropriate??

StevePlease go away, I'm very important and am trying to work.....
:wink:

[Franck]

Originally posted by TheTramp
So which one of you is going to be inappropriate??Well me obviously :D :D :D

I can't imagine Divissima behaving in an inapropriate manner (though I am sure I would not *really* mind :wink: but TwK might.. )

Franck

[Franck]

Originally posted by Stuart M
Well, Franck, I considered it only polite to exchange names afterward...:innocent: I usually consider it polite to exchange names beforehand :wink: :waycool:

Franck.

[Divissima]

The fiendish Franck wrote:I can't imagine Divissima behaving in an inapropriate manner (though I am sure I would not *really* mind but TwK might.. )
No indeed, I am the picture of innocence :devil: TwK is likely to be otherwise engaged dancing in an outrageous flirtatious yet sparkling fashion with another female - so I say, the more inappropriate the better! :wink: :waycool:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Divissima
Please go away, I'm very important and am trying to work.....
:wink: You see the little 'x' in the right hand top corner of your screen Divi :D

Steve

PS. When did you become important?? :na:

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Originally posted by Gadget
I thought that's what you should do on every dance?


No Gadget- the point was it's different with every partner. Keep trying....:hug:

[Twinkle Toes]

LOL :D

Steve,

that is definitely your best avatar yet - very amusing.

TT :hug:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
No Gadget- the point was it's different with every partner. Keep trying....:hug:
Different, yes; but still should be slightly flirtatious(sp?) no matter who your partner is :wink: :devil: :wink:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Twinkle Toes
LOL :D

Steve,

that is definitely your best avatar yet - very amusing.

TT :hug: Thanks TT. Glad you like it.

Trying to get into the Scottish mindset. My first set of bagpipes are already on order.

I just pity you all when I get my kilt!! :D

Steve

[TheTramp]

Incidentally, before she gets a chance, I should post that I had several (very enjoyable) dances with Divissima tonight. During which time I was totally inappropriate.

But she seemed to enjoy it :D :devil: :sorry

Steve

[Twinkle Toes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheTramp
My first set of bagpipes are already on order.

I just pity you all when I get my kilt!! :D

Steve

oh noooo ....... :eek:

only kiddin big yin ! :wink: I'm sure you'll suit it. But will you ever be a true Scotsman ? :eek: :eek: :eek:

.... mmmm ....... must get that camera of mine fixed ! :D

TT

:hug:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Twinkle Toes
only kiddin big yin ! :wink: I'm sure you'll suit it. But will you ever be a true Scotsman ? :eek: :eek: :eek:

.... mmmm ....... must get that camera of mine fixed ! :D

TT

:hug: Trust me. 1 - You don't wanna know. 2 - You never wanna be in the position of finding out, and. 3 - You definitely don't want your camera fixed!! :D

Steve

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Originally posted by Gadget
Different, yes; but still should be slightly flirtatious(sp?) no matter who your partner is :wink: :devil: :wink:

That's the point- different - well done- at last!

[Bill]

Originally posted by Aleks
As I have already said, I don't even notice it any more. I'm far too busy dancing AND I don't want to stop wearing low cut t-shirts/dresses - it's far too hot and sweaty at Marco's to cover up (so I keep telling Luca) and I'm sure you'll agree DD!


well it was last night ( see Scot's new thread !)......... and I didn't look until I had permission :D :wink:

and a nice top it was too Aleks... :sorry :D

[Wendy]

Isn't is amazing how a topic which only involves 1 % of dancers can "inspire" such discourse !!!

We were having a chat today at a practice and thought I'd share some of the wise words with you all (Forgive me team if it looks like I'm claiming this wisdom as my own :innocent: although secretly I'd be only too pleased if everyone thought the clever bits were from me and the less clever bits were Graham's idea :devil: )

To me CEROC is acting. The dancers, one leading and one following, are in a 4-minute play with the music providing the narrative, the direction, the scenery and all that stuff. A good actor aims to recreate emotions in a variery of roles right ? So in the same way a dancer aims to interpret the emotions in the music and communicate this with their partner. (I'm still on topic believe me - although I am taking bookings for my next "Way Off Topic" workshop :waycool: )

Anyway. Today we had a revelation about the sleaze thing. When non sleazy people dance they are acting. They are acting passionate or funky or flirty or sexy or skippy or whatever and they can do this with any other dancer even with people of the same sex !!! (I'm talking about straight people here and hope not to offend anyone in the process.. ) Today I danced with several girls and it was just as magical as if I'd been dancing with a boy (even better sometimes but I won't name names :wink: ). I was able to look passionately into their eyes and flirt and do all that stuff cos it's acting. The sleaze people are not acting. This is the difference. They don't practise at being better dancers (to lead or follow better), they don't go to workshops (to learn about footwork or musicality) and they churn out the same old moves (cos they clearly ignore what's going on in the class). Their acting-reality boundary is fuzzy and they cross the line.

The time thing. A dance lasts 4 minutes or so. It is the music, therefore, that dictates the length of the exchange, not the dancers themselves. In real life, on the other hand (or on the forum hee hee) you can talk to people as long as you like (well I do !!!). I can only conclude that this is a good thing cos it helps us all to keep our boundaries clear. If I danced 12 records in a row with someone I'd probably start to really feel the emotions I'd only been acting out (and after 3/4 bluesy tracks... jeez.... !!!)
and that's probably why actors often fall in love with their onscreen partner and then it all goes sour in the real world. I wouldn't want to dance with my favourite dancers, even my BTC team, more than 2 dances in a row (maybe 3 at a push) , although I'd be happy to dance with them loads of times throughout the night especially ones I really know. Sleazy people do this with people they do not know.

Conclusion : Sleazy dancers aren't acting - the other 99% of us are (even if it's hard sometimes cos some of you are gorgeous and charming and everything.... :yum: )

Wxxx

[newby]

Wendy said
They are acting passionate or funky or flirty or sexy or skippy or whatever and they can do this with any other dancer even with people of the same sex !!! (I'm talking about straight people here and hope not to offend anyone in the process.. )

Wendy, as a female beginner who struggles with male (lead?) beginners, I have really enjoyed the few dances I've had with you as my partner - you've obviously been where I am (I can't get this!) and you make it easy fo us beginners. Thank you - I will persevere - I will survive!

But I don't know everyone and I have felt uncomfortable on several occasions, too touchy, too thrusting.

You're right - it is all a pretence, acting, a bit of innocent fun - but only if your in on the joke - and as a newby, I don't know who is fun ( I know you are!) and who's taking advantage. What you said is so right, but it will be a while until I can separate the 1% who are taking advantage from the 99% innocent!

[Wendy]

Originally posted by newby
I will survive!Hi newby - Don't know who you are ???? But yes you will and you will love it !!!! We'll get Franck or Robert or Curtain to play Gloria Gaynor just for you !!!!


But I don't know everyone and I have felt uncomfortable on several occasions, too touchy, too thrusting. That's a pity - but go with your feelings, they are important. You will find the people who you can trust and relax with and the others ?? ... well... we're all working on that as you can see from this thread !!! I think this is probably the most important discussion we have had on the forum. And judging from the response I can only assume I am not alone in thinking that. I was going to bring this up myself but didn't have the guts !!!! (Thanks again Sheena - that's why you are the Head Girl and I'm just a first year smoking behind the bike shed...)


I don't know who is fun ... and who is taking advantage. What you said is so right, but it will be a while until I can separate the 1% who are taking advantage from the 99% innocent! I still don't get it !!! I am actually very trusting and quite naive and I think that's why I get so angry when I discover someone like Glasgow's Mr Sleaze. I even invited him to my birthday party last year !!! and it's only in the last couple of months that I have felt uncomfortable dancing with him !!! And I'm still practising saying "No thanks" in my head before I actuallyt say it out loud !!!

Wxxx

PS And thanks for all your kind words:D :D

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Wendy
Anyway. Today we had a revelation about the sleaze thing. When non sleazy people dance they are acting. They are acting passionate or funky or flirty or sexy or skippy or whatever and they can do this with any other dancer even with people of the same sex !!!
I can't agree entirely, Wendy - you're not seriously suggesting that when a real couple are dancing, it's all an act. :confused: FC and her man James, for instance, or even yourself and Graham...:rolleyes:

And by extension, people can "click" on the dancefloor and it can end up as more than a 5-minute play. Dance is part of the old courtship ritual, after all.

My own view is that (particularly as a bloke) you shouldn't get passionate or flirty or sexy, unless you know the other person at some level. Or, alternately, if you can manage a "dialogue" with the other person early in the dance, which shows that they want to play as well :wink:.

Sleazy dancers don't bother with that early dialog, they simply assume the other person is willing to take part in/be subjected to their style and go for it.

And now, time to get something interesting together for that 200th post...:cheers:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Stuart M
I can't agree entirely, Wendy - you're not seriously suggesting that when a real couple are dancing, it's all an act. :confused: FC and her man James, for instance, or even yourself and Graham...:rolleyes:

Great you agree a little though.. that must be a first :D Also great you disagree cos this is such a personal and subjective thing that I wouldn't expect anyone to share my views totally and that makes it all the more interesting.

Funnily enough I find it hardest to flirt with Graham than I do with almost anyone else and that includes girls !! And that's because it would feel "real". Can't talk for Melanie and James of course... but I know that when I dance with James there is a magical connection even although in the real world he would never look twice at me cos he'd think I was his granny :tears:

Of course people can "click" - I "click" lots of times and that's an amazing buzz. "Is this for real ?...is it not ?....do I really feel this... is he ???" Afterall, physically we are very close to another human being so our brain must be saying .. "hey last time I was as close as this to a man I was wearing nothing more than a hint of Mitsouko". (Luckily the music is a kind of chaperone and only lasts 4 minutes !) and that's why it can be very hard for some of you guys to dance with another man perhaps ??????..... As I said in my other post, actors often fall in love with their onsceen partner and it must happen all the time at CEROC cos we are not trained dancers or actors who can skip in and out of character at a whim and do the mental gymnastics not to "react" shall we say.

I'd be fascinated to know how people feel when they dance with someone after they have split up or if they've had a fight in the car on the way to CEROC.....????? :wink:

Anyway... your 199th post was a great one... looking forward to 200 !! And by the time you get to 600 you might start to let the quality slip a little.... so who cares - noone is really out there right ???

And some of us might even be "acting" a little on the forum. I mean some people think I am bolshy and opinionated and a bit of a loud mouth when we all know I am just a shy wee innocent fragile poppet in reality .....

Wx

[Chicklet]

Wendy and Stuart,

I agree with both of you!!!!!!

It's a great place for acting up - I saw a few raised eyebrows at Roy and I with some of our playing up on Saturday night but at no time did it feel sleazy just a hell of a lot of fun!

I have decided in my head always to assume that it's acting untill and unless I know for sure otherwise but Wendy I know what you mean with the thrill of the is this or isn't it thing cos Stuart is absolutely right that dancing is part of the courtship ritual and if you think about it - if some of the closeness that comes about during Ceroc nights came about anywhere ELSE, (dancing or otherwise) you might be more likely to think / know that it was for real. - Hope that makes sense!!

Also, we are all only human and it is basic human nature to be FLATTERED that someone wants to get close isn't it? Is it possible to be flattered and abhored at the same time????

C


And you are also correct about acting on the Forum - I'm sure there are plenty that think I'm a complete tart - all t*ts and teeth when actually I'm really a very strictly brought up tame little accountant type.:innocent:


Do hope FC and/or James come on and give us a view from the couples connecting point of view....but then I won't hold my breath cos they're probably too busy doing it rather than reading about it here!!! Lucky things!!!:D

[horsey_dude]

Originally posted by newby

Originally posted by Wendy
But I don't know everyone and I have felt uncomfortable on several occasions, too touchy, too thrusting.You're right - it is all a pretence, acting, a bit of innocent fun - but only if your in on the joke - and as a newby, I don't know who is fun ( I know you are!) and who's taking advantage. What you said is so right, but it will be a while until I can separate the 1% who are taking advantage from the 99% innocent! This might be a good time to add my opinion (and you know I will always have one)...... I havn't had much of a chance to judge the sexy moves thing since I don't see a lot of it here but this is what I think...

There should be not be a problem telling what is inappropriate!

The point of sexy moves (or close moves as I would call them) is that to the casual observer it looks as though you are doing something normally reserved for the privacy of your own home (or at a night club after a large amount or alcohol) when in fact there in nothing naughty going on.

For the sake of the sensitive members of the forum I will use the technical term term "naughty bits" to explain.

The thing that is really going to make a woman (or a man) uncomfortable is someone making contact with their "naughty bits" because that is not acceptable from a person that you don't have an intimate relationship with, and yet the same person can give you a hug because its arms around shoulders etc.

Now if the move is legitimate and has been taught and led properly you shouldn't come away feeling like you need to take a shower. I havn't seen one of your "blues" classes but it looks to me like either the moves are being improvised (when I am watching freestyle) or the whole sexy moves idea is different here.

An example of a close move that I might do is one that we call a frisk. You would only try this with someone who was an advanced dancer or you had done it class with them or they were a teacher/taxi dancer etc. Its hard to describe online but you get the woman into a basket position but directly in front of you and then (in time with the music) put each one of her hands on her head (like in the macarena) and run your hands down her sides while wiggling her hips from side to side and then spin her out. The lead (at least the way I learned it) is with a combination of hands on hips and the mans hip bone against the ladies tailbone (roughly speaking). To someone watching it looks like you are rubbnig your "naughty bits" together but in fact there is no "naughty bit contact" and because you move in sync there never should be.

Imagnie my surprise when the first time I went to do this move (with a taxi dancer) the first part went ok and then she thrust her "naughty bits" backwards against my "naughty bits" and..... .....well I don't think I need to go into any more detail....

The point is you can dance sexy without doing anything your mother wouldn't approve of. It should be obvious who the deliberate gropers and brusher up againsters are and they should be told plainly to behave or go somewhere else.

[Wendy]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
I havn't had much of a chance to judge the sexy moves thing since I don't see a lot of it here........Well some people can't do sexy moves to boom boom music - they do sexy moves to music with "no CEROC beat " !


The thing that is really going to make a woman (or a man) uncomfortable is someone making contact with their "naughty bits" Not necessarily ...... the scary or thrilling or really wow stuff has nothing to do with the moves - if a man can get inside your head the "naughty bits" will just come along for the ride..... (I'm talking about the non sleazy dancers here) and the scary or uncomfortable or yeuuchh stuff DOES have a lot to do with the moves (I'm now talking about the sleazy ones....) cos they miss out the head part....

Didn't some great philosopher on the forum once say :

"when you have a real connection with the person you are dancing with it's like flirting or even making love with them (not literally) and it is as if no one else is there.. it's just like acting out a scene in a movie....the real trick is not "sexy" moves but eye contact and expression..." ???? It's probably my favourite post ....... but the music IS the film....and some people want to be in an Arnie/Stallone blow up cars thing and some people want to be in Strictly Ballroom or Ghost or... now... that would be telling.......


The point is you can dance sexy without doing anything your mother wouldn't approve of. ....Yes !!! (And you can dance sexy doing lots of things your mother wouldn't approve of... )

Wx

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally mumbled by Wendy

I'd be fascinated to know how people feel when they dance with someone after they have split up or if they've had a fight in the car on the way to CEROC.....????? :wink:

I agree with you - theres more emotinal attachments for attached couples and i always find i can dance far more consistently 'sexy' with certain people i have no emotional attachment too. i just tend not to do the 'boob grope' move with them ;).

Originally pasted by Wendy

Anyway... your 199th post was a great one... looking forward to 200 !! And by the time you get to 600 you might start to let the quality slip a little.... so who cares - noone is really out there right ???

My quality slipped at Post 2, never mind 600. :)



Originally screamed by Wendy

And some of us might even be "acting" a little on the forum. I mean some people think I am bolshy and opinionated and a bit of a loud mouth when we all know I am just a shy wee innocent fragile poppet in reality .....


Yeah and the Tramp is really quiet in real life - go figure :)

I'm nothing like this normally.

[TheTramp]

Yeah and the Tramp is really quiet in real life - go figure It's soooo true.

Away from the dancing anyhow.

Just ask my landlady :)

Steve

[Graham]

Originally admitted by Dreadful Scathe
My quality slipped at Post 2, never mind 600. :) Actually there was a spelling mistake in Post 1, so not sure on the quality thing :wink:


Originally claimed by Stuart M
And now, time to get something interesting together for that 200th post...Interestingly Stuart built up our expectations in a similar way when he approached his 100th post, only for our hopes to be dashed. :devil: Still, I live in hope....

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I agree with you - theres more emotional attachments for attached couples and I always find I can dance far more consistently 'sexy' with certain people I have no emotional attachment to. I just tend not to do the 'boob grope' move with them ;) LOL

IYeah and the Tramp is really quiet in real life - go figure :) Some French poet wrote about masks (any ideas Franck???...) the mask we wear to the outisde world is the exact opposite of who we really are.... interesting theory I always thought... and if it wasn't the French poet it's some phsychologist person :confused:

Wxxx

[Stuart M]

Originally wondered by Wendy
I'd be fascinated to know how people feel when they dance with someone after they have split up or if they've had a fight in the car on the way to CEROC.....????? :wink:

To the first point (can't answer the second, never had a big row in a car) - personally I'm more relaxed about it - I don't get nagged about my style as much :rolleyes: (only saying that because I know she's too busy to read the Forum these days...:wink: ). And oddly, I think I'm more relaxed dancing with other people (except Brady cos he makes too much eye contact for my liking :eek: ). Actually, I know I'm more relaxed: after all 'someone' did say I was nearly chocolate last Wednesday...


Originally babbled by Wendy
Anyway... your 199th post was a great one... looking forward to 200 !! And by the time you get to 600 you might start to let the quality slip a little.... so who cares - noone is really out there right ???

I only make a fuss so that, in future years, I can show my grandchildren the Forum and point out these milestones. Mind you, then I'll have to explain who all those other people are, and why on earth I hung around with them :D


Originally havered by Wendy
And some of us might even be "acting" a little on the forum. I mean some people think I am bolshy and opinionated and a bit of a loud mouth when we all know I am just a shy wee innocent fragile poppet in reality .....

Wx
Apparently, somewhere in the world, a noun has lost her family of adjectives: they answer to the names "shy", "wee", "innocent", and "fragile" and might attach themselves to a stranger...looks like we just found 'em...

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Stuart M
Apparently, somewhere in the world, a noun has lost her family of adjectives: they answer to the names "shy", "wee", "innocent", and "fragile" and might attach themselves to a stranger...looks like we just found 'em...


sounds like a nun noun

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Wendy
Anyway. Today we had a revelation about the sleaze thing. When non sleazy people dance they are acting.
Not sure if I agree; are you saying that the better the 'actor', the better the dance you have with them?
Acting is pretending to act/react to external stimulus; the better the acting, the closer to 'real life' the performance. By this measure, you should have the best dance from someone who is not 'acting', ie the slease. :sick:

I just think that some people take liberties and give others the creeps.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget
Acting is pretending to act/react to external stimulus; the better the acting, the closer to 'real life' the performance. I don't think you've really understood the point, Gadget. Where the acting comes in is giving the eye-contact, the body language and so on which conveys the passion to your partner (and to observers), without actually making the more intimate contact which would appear to be necessary.

When you're flirting with your partner you're communicating that you desire them, that you'd like to run your hands all over their body, that they're the only person in the room. If you really run your hands all over their body (as opposed to transmitting the desire) you're potentially crossing the line. The complication is that in modern jive dancing you actually do touch your partner's body, and it's the way in which you touch it and where which separates the acting from the sleaze. And of course, the how/where acceptability line varies with each combination of two partners and a track. It also varies over time (so something which would have been unacceptable six months ago might now be okay, or vice versa).

It comes back to intent. If your intent in touching your partner in a certain way is to convey your "fake"* desire, that's acting. If you're doing it to get sexual gratification ( :sorry: sorry, Franck, couldn't think of a more subtle way of putting it) then you're a sleaze.

Graham

* I put fake in quotations because although it is sometimes completely fake it's often a combination of genuinely finding your partner attractive and hamming this up.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally boogied by Graham
* I put fake in quotations because although it is sometimes completely fake it's often a combination of genuinely finding your partner attractive and hamming this up.

Wouldnt it have made more sense to leave out 'fake' and put 'desire' in quotes instead then ? :)

[Graham]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Wouldnt it have made more sense to leave out 'fake' and put 'desire' in quotes instead then ? :) Yes, good point Nik :grin: I should have known I'd live to regret pointing out that spelling mistake :sorry :wink:

[Dance Demon]

Been reading this with interest. I think it all boils down to knowing the person you are dancing with and being aware of how far you can go without causing offence. It is possible to dance with anyone,with a certain amount of harmless flirting, and do "sexy moves" without being offensive. a prime example of this art is Brian, who Taxi's in Edinburgh. He has a very unique style and flair when he dances, and can make a dance look really sexy without being sleazy or offensive. I have watched him dance on many occasions with Elsie, and it is obvious that they know each other well and have danced with each other many times over the years. Brian does moves withElsie that he probably never does with any one else, and to be honest I find them quite exhillerating to watch. But it is far from sleazy. More, like Wendy says, like two people acting and interpreting the music the way that they feel it. Maybe that's why a lot of ladies like to dance with him, and after all, there's no substitute for experience. Maybe some of the "Mr Sleaze" characters out there could do with taking a leaf out of his book.
:waycool:

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
a prime example of this art is Brian, who Taxi's in Edinburgh. He has a very unique style and flair when he dances, and can make a dance look really sexy without being sleazy or offensive. ...........Maybe some of the "Mr Sleaze" characters out there could do with taking a leaf out of his book.
:waycool:

You're spot on about Brian, DD. He's the person I dance "closest" with and I have NEVER felt uncomfortable. I think the biggest thing here is trust...........some people inspire/give it automatically and some people have to "earn/learn" it, and each of us interacts differently. "Personal space" is such a subjective issue, I don't think that any amount of debate about what's comfy/uncomfy for each of us will produce a definitive answer - just do what "feels" right for you!

[Lindsay]

Originally posted by Aleks
I don't think that any amount of debate about what's comfy/uncomfy for each of us will produce a definitive answer - just do what "feels" right for you!

That's so true... I know this can be a bit of an issue with Blues.

Brian is the King of harmless flirting, I agree DD! And BTC Bill is a close second!

[Chicklet]

Just checking, is Brian the gentleman with the "snakiest" hips in town and wonderful facial expressions?:waycool:

C

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Graham
I don't think you've really understood the point, Gadget. Where the acting comes in is giving the eye-contact, the body language and so on which conveys the passion to your partner (and to observers), without actually making the more intimate contact which would appear to be necessary.
Understood, but not comprehending... {I just like splitting hairs :wink::sorry}

... subtle shift of perception...I can 'see' the anology better in martial-art film acting rather than Shakespearian acting; Yes? :confused:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Wendy
Of course people can "click" - I "click" lots of times and that's an amazing buzz. "Is this for real ?...is it not ?....do I really feel this... is he ???"
Wx Was it real for you then Wendy :rolleyes: :D ...... not sure if I want to ask a woman if she feels it either during or after the dance :innocent: :na:

and yes ...those snake hips in Edinburgh belong to the lovely Brian. Fran learned a great deal from Brian who, along with Roy, kind of took her under his wing when she started.

He was also very kind to me when I started dancing and first travelled to parties in Edinburgh and was always willing to help me with some of the moves he knew. A very very nice guy and very genuine. A great non-sleazy dancer :cheers:

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Just checking, is Brian the gentleman with the "snakiest" hips in town and wonderful facial expressions?:waycool:

C

That's yer man.........and the best range of spandex vests around:D :waycool:

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Wendy
...... the scary or thrilling or really wow stuff has nothing to do with the moves - if a man can get inside your head the "naughty bits" will just come along for the ride..... (I'm talking about the non sleazy dancers here) and the scary or uncomfortable or yeuuchh stuff DOES have a lot to do with the moves (I'm now talking about the sleazy ones....) cos they miss out the head part....

Definitely agree, Wendy! When you're dancing with the right person, even just hand-to-hand contact can feel thrilling and naughty!


I'd be fascinated to know how people feel when they dance with someone after they have split up or if they've had a fight in the car on the way to CEROC.....?????

This sounds familiar!! On a couple of occasions, Marc and I haven't made it to a freestyle til 11pm because we were arguing.
Though it never seems to last long on the dancefloor - I'll be doing my 'no, I don't want to dance with you', but he'll drag me onto the floor and then I'm refusing to look at him and giving him my very best ' I don't want to be here' vibes - but by the 3rd dance, he's always won me over and I can't help smiling!

Rachel

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Rachel Definitely agree, Wendy! When you're dancing with the right person, even just hand-to-hand contact can feel thrilling and naughty! Yep !!!
On a couple of occasions, Marc and I haven't made it to a freestyle til 11pm because we were arguing...I'll be doing my 'no, I don't want to dance with you', and then I'm refusing to look at him and giving him my very best ' I don't want to be here' vibes You ARE my twin... you ARE my twin !!! This happened on Saturday for the first time - and not only that the fight had been about dancing !!!! He didn't get ALL the vibes though but did say that I hadn't been smiling quite as much as usual - maybe there's a workshop that could help me make it clearer !!! I'll give it a month or so and then we'll be fine :wink:

Wxxx

[Rachel]

The trouble is, half the time I don't really mean that I don't want to dance with him, I just want him to know that he's really p****ed me off and has got to do something pretty special to make it up to me. I'd probably be drastically offended if he really didn't dance with me all night.

Christ we women can be complicated at times ... (or is it just me?) Who'd be a man!

[Graham]

Originally posted by Rachel
The trouble is, half the time I don't really mean that I don't want to dance with him, I just want him to know that he's really p****ed me off and has got to do something pretty special to make it up to me. I'd probably be drastically offended if he really didn't dance with me all night.

Christ we women can be complicated at times ... (or is it just me?) Who'd be a man! Don't worry about it Rachel - it's well known that all men can read women's minds - otherwise this whole "understand what I'm thinking, not what I'm saying" thing would make female/male communication a complete nightmare! :really: :really: :devil:

[Rachel]

So glad you understand, Graham!

Oh dear - I really must switch off the forum now. The morning's gone and I don't think I've done any work...

Dancing's beginning to take it's toll - last week I danced 7 nights in a row, went to bed at 3.15 am on Sunday and didn't wake up til 10.30 am on Monday morning (when I should be leaving my house at 7.15 to get to work). I had to ring up - Very Embarrassed - and arrange to take an impromptu holiday for the day. Ooops!

Rachel

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Graham
Don't worry about it Rachel - it's well known that all men can read women's minds - otherwise this whole "understand what I'm thinking, not what I'm saying" thing would make female/male communication a complete nightmare! :really: :really: :devil: Oh yes. And being really nice to Rachel is going to help your case !!! :reallymad :tears: :sad: :rolleyes: :wink: And I really didn't want to dance with you all night !!!! I was just being nice by asking you at the end !!! And you know that's hard for me !!!

:hug:

Wxxx

PS And hey, Statsman - are we the first couple to make up on the forum ???:wink:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Wendy
PS And hey, Statsman - are we the first couple to make up on the forum ???:wink: How many other couples are there on the forum then?? :confused:

Steve

[Wendy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
How many other couples are there on the forum then??

Too hard to keep track. They get together, they split up , they want to go out with someone new but they shouldn't .... they wouldn't want it to be public....they don't want to hurt the first one.... it would be so hard if they broke up later... who'd get the house... who'd get CEROC.... who knows ... who cares.... I just dance with them and then they are mine all mine till the end of the track ...... I'm off to practise my Jungle Book eyes "trust in me, just in me (la la) " :D

Wxxx

[Graham]

Originally posted by TheTramp
How many other couples are there on the forum then?? :confused: A bit like asking how many people have a birthday in April - you can obviously count the ones who've declared theirs, but what about the people who've kept it to themselves? I can see 3 "declared" couples where both partners are in the top 60 posters (including myself), plus a few more where only one of the partners is active on the forum.

[Wendy]

and yes ...those snake hips in Edinburgh belong to the lovely Brian. Fran learned a great deal from Brian who, along with Roy, kind of took her under his wing when she started..He was also very kind to me when I started dancing and first travelled to parties in Edinburgh and was always willing to help me with some of the moves he knew. A very very nice guy and very genuine. A great non-sleazy dancer Don't know if he is on the forum - but thought I'd add my words of sheer admiration for the guy. He danced with me once in Glasgow ages ago - it was the Vida Loca and I thought I was in Heaven...we just read the music in the same way and it was fantastic. He's always really patient with me cos although, mostly it is great, a lot of the time I don't know what the **** I'm doing and it feels like a disaster dance... but he'll teach me stuff like that fab columbian walk round backwards thing ... wish I got the chance to practise with him more... one of my heroes.... sigh.....

Wxxx

[Dreadful Scathe]

Hes one of my heros as well - but i dont get to dance with him :/

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Hes one of my heros as well - but i dont get to dance with him :/ Have you asked ?? Lots of boys are dancing together these days - it's brill to watch :yum:

Wxxx

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Wendy
Have you asked ?? Lots of boys are dancing together these days - it's brill to watch :yum:

Wxxx Don't bother asking Will though. He's still a little retarded. Oops. Sorry. Meant reluctant. Silly me :D

Steve

[Wendy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
He's still a little retarded. That just means he's a little late right ? Wondered why I found it so hard to dance well with him...:wink:

Wxxx

[Lindsay]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Hes one of my heros as well - but i dont get to dance with him :/

You and B would look good together DS.... you should just ask him (but join the queue like everyone else)!

L
x

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Wendy
Don't know if he is on the forum - but thought I'd add my words of sheer admiration for the guy.

Wxxx

Dont think he actually posts on the forum, although he may read it from time to time, and I'm sure if he reads all this adulation he will get really embarrassed, coz he is also a very modest kind of guy, as well as being an ace dancer:waycool:

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Stuart M
To the first point (can't answer the second, never had a big row in a car) - personally I'm more relaxed about it - I don't get nagged about my style as much :rolleyes: (only saying that because I know she's too busy to read the Forum these days...:wink: ).

I'm back!!!

You are in soooo much trouble when I see you at the weekend!!!!

J :reallymad

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Jayne
I'm back!!!

You are in soooo much trouble when I see you at the weekend!!!!

J :reallymad


hmm so did Jayne read back and stumble on the contraversial post or was she tipped off ? another case for Miss Marple.....

[horsey_dude]

This isn't a dance post but is sleazy so I thought I would add it. When I took the bus from aberdeen to edinburgh I was in the bus towards the back and in the back was an older guy (60's maybe) who harassed the female passengers. I didn't hear most of the first one because she was only a few seats forward of him and she got off at one of the earlier stops. Another girl got on (maybe early 20's) and he started off talknig to her nicely and then started going on about how nice her hair and eys where etc and asking if he could join her and saying he was single and needed a wife. Eventually whe stopped answering him and he just kept saying to her "hey blondie, hey blondie" until I told him she didn't want to talk to him.... He then sat there muttering and saying he didn't like people like me.... After then if a girl got on the bus and started heading to the back I would tell her she should sit at the front.... so it is not just ceroc that gets creepy guys!

[filthycute]

This is a long thread so i just quickly browsed a few pages so appologies if i'm repeating whats already been said. Thought i'd jump on the bandwagon because although (people who are familiar with him) James has only been dancing a few months he's already encountered the sleazy woman type:really:
Thankfully this hasn't put him off dancing cause he's a cerocaholic but does make him feel uncomfortable none the less. He himself doesn't do these kinds of moves with other woman ('cept me :wink: so personally my thoughts on it are, if if you don't know the person that well, or if she/he's not playing up to you, leave the bumping and grinding for someone else

filthycute x x

[Siobhan (Forum Plant)]

Yep- hear hear FC!

Dancing Ceroc can really test a relationship at times, 'specially when there are so many slappers about! And sleazy men....

:eek: did I just say that?

[Graham]

Couple of new members seem to be interested in this topic so thought I'd re-activate this thread.

[Sheepman]

I think there are other threads covering it too, with less obvious titles, or maybe I'm thinking of the defunct London forum.

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Unfortunately, I saw her having the last dance with the Hipsters creep. My wife, Sue, has told him NO because he's so creepy and so have a number of the other girls. If he puts off our new girl Franco is breaking even on Mr Creepy. If he put off another girl Franco is losing money. What happens in other classes when there's an obvious creepy/pervy guy?

Let's hope the new girl comes back, I spent ages talking her into staying.:waycool:
I can only think of one who was there last night who fits this description - there is another, but he wasn't there last night. If he's the one I'm thinking about then he goes to Twickenham sometimes too.

I am getting angry enough about this individual to think of wading in a little and stirring things up a bit. It will be a bit easier this time. :devil:

But in the meantime, ladies, please realise this: the creepy ones DO NOT UNDERSTAND HINTS. If they were sensitive enough to get hints, they wouldn't be creepy.

Girls, you know the difference between creepy and UCP/fun. If it's creepy, DON'T PUT UP WITH IT. Don't dance with the creepy ones. Not even once. Don't put up with anything inappropriate, and don't give them the benefit of the doubt.

Chris

[Mary]

Originally posted by Pammy
Morning Gang!

Well, that was one hell of a night. Got some practice in with Tony, had a fab one to a great song with ChrisA (what was it?), Sheepy was doing double speed lariots and if he missed my hands, he just pulled me round by my pigtails :wink: :blush:, Ed was great, so was Will(ster in his anorak :wink:) and Tatties. Yes I even managed to steal one (or maybe two) with McGregster and had a really funny one with the King of Grincing; Nigel :grin:.

Incidentally, there were TWO creeps in there last night :what: :really: :blush:

Pamster
x

Well, for some reason I managed to miss dancing with just about all the 'Sters. However, had a couple of fabby ones with Geordieed, and practised a bit of WCS with Greg to that last slow track.

Which are the creeps? I had a 'dance' with someone known as lurch - is he one?

Mster

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Mary
Which are the creeps? I had a 'dance' with someone known as lurch - is he one?

Yep. Are your shoulders still in their sockets????

Still trying to work out who the other one is... I don't think the other one I know was there, so it seems there's a third one I haven't run into. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Pammy
doing double speed lariots They didn't work with anyone else :cheers:

I spoke to Franco about the creep, along with a young lady who'd been badly affected by him, Franco was very concerned. Foolishly this was after the perv had gone, but if you spot him there, please point him out to Franco.

(I avoided mentioning the incident to Chris A on the night, as I feared for Chris' safety, I think I know how Chris would have reacted, and this guy was much much bigger than him.)

Apart from that I had a fab night, Roger played some great music, but there is one (?) point I have to pick Andy up on. Andy has often complained at too much fast swing on a Tuesday, well Roger played just one very long, and even faster, Rock and roll number last night. Even dancing with M'ster it was just a case of keeping up, rather than doing anything interesting.

Greg

[Divissima]

Greg, was the creep the guy I thought you meant? I would be interested to hear. I added one guy to my 'refusal' list last night - probably the same guy. :reallymad

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I spoke to Franco about the creep, along with a young lady who'd been badly affected by him, Franco was very concerned. Foolishly this was after the perv had gone, but if you spot him there, please point him out to Franco.
Good on ya, Sheepster :cheers:

(I avoided mentioning the incident to Chris A on the night, as I feared for Chris' safety, I think I know how Chris would have reacted, and this guy was much much bigger than him.)
If it's the one I'm thinking of. You needn't worry. When needed, I have a death stare at least as powerful as Nina's.

It's just because I'm so relaxed and friendly that it doesn't come out much. :devil:

Chris

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Even dancing with M'ster it was just a case of keeping up, rather than doing anything interesting.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :waycool:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Divissima
Greg, was the creep the guy I thought you meant? I would be interested to hear. I added one guy to my 'refusal' list last night - probably the same guy. :reallymad

I think I saw the incident that made you make that decision!

Pamster
x

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Pammy
I think I saw the incident that made you make that decision!

Pamster
x
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

The guy's days are numbered. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

But please girls, COMPLAIN. Don't leave it to the guys.

Chris

[Divissima]

Ok, now that the posts have been moved to the appropriate thread makes it easier to follow. I've only danced with him on one previous night - and on that occasion I was left unsure whether his behaviour was deliberate or accidental, although I was leaning towards suspecting the former. Last night I decided it didn't really matter either way - my one dance with him was horrible, so added him to the refusal list . And ChrisA wandered past and gave me his And what do you think you're doing, young lady look which reminded me that I had already resolved not to dance with him again. So only myself to blame for the horrid dance last night. When he asked for a follow-on dance I said 'no, thank you' politely but firmly and instantly felt like the old me.


But please girls, COMPLAIN. Don't leave it to the guys.Chris, I know what you are saying. Perhaps it isn't enough just to refuse to dance with them on an individual basis. Although it made me feel better.

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Divissima
Greg, was the creep the guy I thought you meant? Yeah I'm pretty sure it was the same one.
And ladies, it's must be tough to complain, especially to the guy in question, but if someone had done it previously with this perv, it might have prevented this lady from being so upset. I was shocked to see her in such a state. Complaining needs to be done for other people's sakes.

Greg

[jivecat]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
............every time she danced with me her nipples would stick out and then go down when she got to the next person.... I am not sure what the male equivalent of this would be..??


There's someone at ceroc that has time to spend minutely observing people's nipples? Now that really is quite scary!

[Graham W]

...was in Hipsters 2 weeks ago & was joking to my friend about whether a certain person had been banned yet as he'd been more than creepy (understatement - but it sreally up to her to say)and unfortunatley he was & was her first partner in the class!! he tried a subtle feel again - but er, he bit of more then he could chew this time...strong verbal warning..

G

[Martin]

Wow a long thread , have now read it all :(


Originally posted by Dance Demon

I find that I rarely dance with the same lady for more than one track, unless it has been a really good dance, in which case I might dance one more, but never three in a row. I may dance with the same person again later in the night, but unless they know the girl particularly well, I think several dances in a row should sound alarm bells in the girls head:

Perception such a funny thing. I normally dance just one track. Many years ago as I got to know a girl better she informed me that she knew I did not like dancing with her , when I asked her why she had formed this opinion, she answered that you can tell if you dance well as they will always ask you to dance the next one!! :sad:


Originally posted by Chicklet
And another thing - we've heard a lot about what the girls consider sleazy when the men do it - so come on guys - any women ever given you unwanted "treatment"???:devil:

If so what did it consist of??


Just so that we know not to do it of course, not fishing for hints here!!!:innocent:

I did have 2 ladies that came to my classes and “sleazed” at every opportunity, it was scary, had to practice so much “straight arm” dancing – and a tip guys, keep her face a LONG distance away from yours…:tears:

Best response to a guy who was not “acting” being from Mikey’s lil sis many years ago. We used to dance together down in Brighton and she had just come off the floor having danced with me to a great track, where I was “playing” something wicked.:devil:

The next guy she danced with she pushed away twice and the third time, she stopped dancing and said in a loud voice “don’t do those moves with me” and walked off the floor. The guy followed and said “but you just did those moves with Martin”, her response “But I trust Martin”.

My advice to anyone – if it don’t feel right with that person – IT IS NOT RIGHT.

Trust your instincts.:cheers:

[Jon L]

I was once accused by a lady of being sleazy at St. Mary's last year when I used her hips and shoulders for a spin out :what:

Now on that occasion it was because the women didn't understand that it is perfectly acceptable to use hips arms etc.

A word of warning however is don't try complex stuff with beginners.

[ChrisA]

Ok, I know I'm no match for the thread-splitting omnipotent moderators, but here's another stab...

Pervo the perv master (Shirtman for those who know him by that name) was doing his thing tonight with one of the recent Hipsters Wednesday beginners, now a well-deserved intermediate. With some difficulty I resisted the temptation to shorten his life rather drastically then and there...

I had a dance with her afterwards, said, "you see that guy there, how was he to dance with?"

She said, "erm, well, er.... er"

I said, "trust your instincts - they're right".

She looked mighty relieved.

Zero tolerance, ladies. Please, don't put up with any of it.

Chris

[ChrisA]

.

[Starlight Dancer]

Originally posted by Jon L
I was once accused by a lady of being sleazy at St. Mary's last year when I used her hips and shoulders for a spin out :what:

Now on that occasion it was because the women didn't understand that it is perfectly acceptable to use hips arms etc.

A word of warning however is don't try complex stuff with beginners.

Some people class even a hand hold as sexually dangerous. Thankfully that's not the case in Ceroc. But in my opinion there needs to be a balance - between respect for the partner and allowing the dance to free your feelings and sense of fun. Yes, we want to avoid bad experiences and should not transgress the boundaries of our partner, but at the same time I'd hate to see stories of bad experiences with sleaze scaring genuine people from expressing the harmless passion and fun of dance. Western society in my experience is inhibited enough as it is.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by starlightdancer
But in my opinion there needs to be a balance - between respect for the partner and allowing the dance to free your feelings and sense of fun.
These are in no way mutually exclusive.

Show me anyone who thinks they are and I'll show you someone who is insensitive at best.

There is no fun without respect for your partner. The latter opens up the path to the former.

Anything else we call abuse.

Chris

[Starlight Dancer]

Originally posted by ChrisA
These are in no way mutually exclusive.

Show me anyone who thinks they are and I'll show you someone who is insensitive at best.

There is no fun without respect for your partner. The latter opens up the path to the former.

Anything else we call abuse.

Chris

I totally agree.

Respect for one's partner is paramount and expression of feeling, passion, and fun through dance should take place only when that respect is in place.

My post was to emphasise that so long as total respect for ones partner is in place, we should not allow the bad experiences we hear about to inhibit the expression of fun and passion that is so often suppressed in Western society.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by starlightdancer
My post was to emphasise that so long as total respect for ones partner is in place, we should not allow the bad experiences we hear about to inhibit the expression of fun and passion that is so often suppressed in Western society.
Thanks for clarifying, SLD. Totally agree with this.

Chris

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Pervo the perv master (Shirtman for those who know him by that name) was doing his thing tonight
I asked a couple of ladies about their dances with him, they just said they were bad, but no worse, so I thought maybe he is behaving himself. Did you identify him to Franco, as I don't think this has been done yet. Someone needs to speak to this guy, I suppose I'll have to take the plunge next week if he's there. (I notice he seems to vacate the premises in a hurry at the end, maybe he's aware he's in danger of a lynching?)

Greg

[Starlight Dancer]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I asked a couple of ladies about their dances with him, they just said they were bad, but no worse, so I thought maybe he is behaving himself. Did you identify him to Franco, as I don't think this has been done yet. Someone needs to speak to this guy, I suppose I'll have to take the plunge next week if he's there. (I notice he seems to vacate the premises in a hurry at the end, maybe he's aware he's in danger of a lynching?)

Greg

I don't know the story, what does he do?

[Sheepman]

Oringinally posted by Starlight Dancer
what does he do? Not just a bad dancer (well we all start somewhere), and not just someone that gives his partners the creeps, but also on record for several groping incidents.

Greg

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Not just a bad dancer (well we all start somewhere), and not just someone that gives his partners the creeps, but also on record for several groping incidents.

Greg

So let the women report him ?

If he keeps getting dances is he that bad ?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by stewart38
If he keeps getting dances is he that bad ?
Yes, he most certainly is. :reallymad

He has been banned from a number of Ceroc venues.

The dances "he keeps getting", are in fact, mostly with the young, the pretty, and most importantly those that haven't been dancing long, and who haven't yet developed the confidence to shun the few sleazebags of the dance world.

Why is this do you suppose? It's because those that have been around for a while will avoid him so the newbies are the only ones (usually) that will dance with him.

Even the experienced dancers will tell you how difficult it can be, in a scene where the culture is one of friendly acceptance, and where the norm is to accept dances with a smile, to say no, and to complain vehemently when behaviour is inappropriate, rather than just trying to get away.

So think how difficult it must be for new dancers.

And he's very insistent and controlling - he makes it very difficult to escape from him, as I've personally discovered when attempting to intervene at the end of a track, to give the girl a chance of something less unpleasant.

To predate on the inexperienced in this way, as this one continues to do, is quite horrible.

Chris, death to perverts

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Did you identify him to Franco, as I don't think this has been done yet.
I didn't, this time. As you say, he was just being creepy last night, not totally gross.


Someone needs to speak to this guy, I suppose I'll have to take the plunge next week if he's there.
Good luck - he's been spoken to on many occasions. He just goes where he's not banned.

Chris

[stewart38]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Yes, he most certainly is. :reallymad



Even the experienced dancers will tell you how difficult it can be, in a scene where the culture is one of friendly acceptance, and where the norm is to accept dances with a smile, to say no, and to complain vehemently when behaviour is inappropriate, rather than just trying to get away.

Chris, death to perverts

Well I guess only answer is to get a couple of the guys to give him a good kicking

I was very hung up over what I would consider (and some others have mentioned a sleaze ball taxi dancer lets say from the South East)

As far as I'm aware he still taxi dances and I assume it has to be up to the women to take issue with him but i guess its not always easy (my sister had problem at Fulham a few yrs ago and didn't go back to ceroc)

[Divissima]

I think Chris A and Greg are talking about two different men here, but I could be wrong and I'm sure they'll clarify.

I'd say my experience would support what Chris A has said - that in many cases, these men tend to get many of their dances either from women who do not regularly dance at a venue (as regulars often refuse dances) and from women who are beginners and who lack the experience to know instinctively how far is too far. Of course, the ideal answer is that any woman being made to feel uncomfortable should feel happy to say so, but as Jon L's experience reminds me, as a beginner even standing in ballroom hold feels like an invasion of personal space and a hip-spin slightly outrageous. From my own experience, now several years ago, it was difficult to gauge when a man might have strayed beyond the bounds of acceptable dance moves and was taking advantage.

It is a generalisation, but I think that most ladies don't wish to be rude or hurt someone's feelings so would rather say nothing and maybe give the man the benefit of the doubt (at least the first once or twice).

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Divissima
I think Chris A and Greg are talking about two different men here, but I could be wrong and I'm sure they'll clarify.


Zoikes, thanks for picking this up Divster.

I'm talking (this time :mad: ) about Pervo

Greg, I didn't witness it (though I've witnessed plenty of other less serious examples), but my understanding is that it was Lurch that was responsible for the specific episode we've been talking about recently.

Correct me if I'm wrong, important to get facts right.

Chris

[Carole]

Hi,

If you guys are thinking about the same creep as I am then he was reported to Franco by a couple of people last night... Yuk!!

[Gus]

Originally posted by ChrisA
.....but my understanding is that it was Lurch that was responsible for the specific episode we've been talking about recently.


Lurch???? aka Neanderthal??? If this is the same chap he must be a national liability? Very big and tall? Monosylabic converation? If its the same 'chap' I think there is already a contract out on his head in the Midlands ... how did he escape to London? ..... or can there be TWO Lurches?:tears: :tears:

Q ... what is the plural of Lurch?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gus
Lurch???? aka Neanderthal???
Have PMed Gus with a description of "my" Lurch.

Chris

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I didn't, this time. As you say, he was just being creepy last night, not totally gross. Apparently he was reported to Franco by two women last Wednesday, but Franco hasn't said anything yet, so I am even more determined to next time. I hadn't realised he'd been banned from a number of venues, Franco should know of this too, we don't want Hipsters (or anywhere) to be a haven for creeps.

Greg

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Apparently he was reported to Franco by two women last Wednesday, but Franco hasn't said anything yet, so I am even more determined to next time. I hadn't realised he'd been banned from a number of venues, Franco should know of this too, we don't want Hipsters (or anywhere) to be a haven for creeps.

Greg If this is the creep I'm thinking of, then yes, he has been banned from Ashtons, Casbah & Fulham, as far as I'm aware. I would be absolutely delighted to see him banned from Hipsters as well - from what ChrisA is saying, he is now preying on newbies & beginners, as none of the more experienced ladies will dance with him. Greg, please work on Franco . . .

LilyB

[Emma]

Hmmm wonder if is the same guy who perved on me at Camber in Nov and then at Bromley on NYE...(when I developed a new female-led move formally known as 'the get off me you perv shove' ) ..someone pm me with his description :)

[Rachel]

Originally posted by LilyB
If this is the creep I'm thinking of, then yes, he has been banned from Ashtons, Casbah & Fulham, as far as I'm aware. I would be absolutely delighted to see him banned from Hipsters as well - from what ChrisA is saying, he is now preying on newbies & beginners, as none of the more experienced ladies will dance with him. Greg, please work on Franco . . .

LilyB Is this the guy that I know, Greg - who we were talking abou the other night? I'll speak to him, if you like. I know if won't have as much effect as Franco talking to him - or banning him - but if it will help I'll happily say something.

If it's not him, then who on earth is it? Is it someone who goes on Tuesdays? I've never noticed anyone sleazy at Hipsters - or anywhere else, really. Maybe I'm just lucky ... or is it that I just don't notice these things???
Rachel

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Rachel
Is this the guy that I know, No, I haven't heard too many complaints about him lately, maybe he's mended his ways, though I know people who are still uncomfortable with him. This guy is pretty much a beginner as far as I can tell, and only comes Wednesdays, (more young inexperienced dancers to prey on?)

Greg

[bigdjiver]

One Ceroc teacher I know sometimes teaches retaliation "mistakes", in a somewhat tongue in cheek fashion as part of the intermediate classes. I have never seen any guys get an "accidental" slap in the face or knee in the groin, but perhaps the prospect and the potential is a sufficient deterrent, if one were required.

I have suffered the very occasional stilleto heel in the foot during the basket, but never in any circumstances in which I thought were not real accidents, and not due to a bad lead.

To make it clear I am firmly with the "say no" and complain camp, rather than advocating physical retaliation.

One local lady just says "didn't like that" instantly after any move she does not like. (In my case it was double spins, twice, bad memory again)

[Emma]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
To make it clear I am firmly with the "say no" and complain camp, rather than advocating physical retaliation. I completely agree with you - I didn't shove my creep out of a desire to retaliate, it was a gut reaction based upon revulsion! I'd certainly never accept a dance with him again and would have no problem explaining precisely why.

[xSalsa_Angelx]

Why not have a new move prepared for perv's??

"The Perv Basket Slap"

wait till the perv puts you into a basket, and then outstreach your arm, then when he returns you, you have your outstretched arm to accidentelly on purpose slap his face?? Tee Hee :rofl:

[CJ]

Originally posted by xSalsa_Angelx
accidentelly on purpose slap his face??

That would make "good viewing!!":D

[xSalsa_Angelx]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
That would make "good viewing!!":D

I will have it prepared for Tuesday night and then report back to the forum to see if it works :rofl:

not just on anyone though, a genuine perv..!! LOL

[CJ]

Originally posted by xSalsa_Angelx
I will have it prepared for Tuesday night and then report back to the forum to see if it works :rofl:

not just on anyone though, a genuine perv..!! LOL

will you record it and show it on the accidenTELLY?

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by bigdjiver

I have suffered the very occasional stilleto heel in the foot during the basket, but never in any circumstances in which I thought were not real accidents, and not due to a bad lead.



Rest assured chaps, ladies can usually tell VERY quickly when a fellow has made an honest mistake, or when he is trying it on. At a single dance a couple of weeks ago I had the following experiences....

1) a dance with a lovely chap, not very tall with short arms. I am a tall curvy lady and like to wear heels - end result, several times in the course of one dance when spinning me etc he inadvertantly grazed my breasts with his hands. BUT from his expression and demeanour I could tell that he was mortified and not a creep;

2) a dance with an older, slow moving gent. On the first travelling return his hand also travelled - across my bum. He was pretty impassive so it was not immediately clear whether or not it was intentional, so I mentally put him on probation for the rest of the dance. From then to the end of the track he was a perfect gent - conclusion another accident, whilst he was building up a bit of momentum!;

3) a dance with someone immediately very intent on UCP moves. Within seconds of hitting the floor he was sticking to me closer then an elastaplast, and spending a disconcerting amount of time wrapped in behind me grinding away. Conclusion - a creep! Fortunately I am a graduate of the Mikey school of evasive moves, and rapidy convinced him that he didn't want to be there with my patented bottom-bounce technique (details available to LADIES ONLY - on request :wink: ); and

4) a dance with a very flirty young man, who established the dance and a basic interaction with me first , then moved on to some naughtier moves - clearly all in fun and no sleaze factor whatsoever!

So chaps - don't get paranoid... a lady will always know a mistake for just that . And ladies trust your instincts, if it doesn't feel right there's probably a good reason why!

p.s. - I always advocate talking it over rather then physical retaliation too - but on one occasion was shamelessly manhandled by a creep who refused to let go of me when I politely asked repeatedly for the dance to stop. He proceeded to wiggle gropingly all the way down my body to the floor - to the delight of a couple of neanderthal pals. On his way back up he met with a ringing slap across the head, lost his grip and I stalked off the floor. Pretty much everyone in the hall saw it. End result, he left and never came back to the venue again (just as well, since the organiser would not have let him in). At the end of the day it can amount to a physical assault on your person - and you are entitled to resist it!

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by DangerousCurves
On his way back up he met with a ringing slap across the head, lost his grip and I stalked off the floor. Excellent, :cheers: sounds like you should be running workshops on this sort of thing!

Greg

[Jayne]

Hi Guys,

just been furkling about and came upon this thread...

There were two guys at hipsters on Wednesdays that I wasn't impressed with. One of them did a move as if he was going to put his hand on my breast - I slapped him across the face. (It was a half joking slap, but a slap nonetheless). The other one I fear is this "lurch" guy - there was a really weird bloke there and "Lurch" does seem to describe him. I obliged for a couple of dances but will try to escape in future.

Apart from them wednesday was a great night!

J :nice:
Back again?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Jayne
Hi Guys,
The other one I fear is this "lurch" guy - there was a really weird bloke there and "Lurch" does seem to describe him. I obliged for a couple of dances but will try to escape in future.

Apart from them wednesday was a great night!


This 'Lurch' character is on my wife, Sue's, 'NO' list. She's said 'no' to him a few times and he now doesn't ask her.

Here is Sue's complete 'no' list.

1. Lurch


Speaking personally, I think it's time Franco did something about him - before an angry husband/boyfriend/father/mother does:angry:

Sue has sorted this situation to her satisfaction. And Hipsters is still her favourite place to dance. Some women of a shy disposition might just decide to remove themselves from harms way and either dance elswhere or even GIVE UP DANCING:tears:

N.B. There is clear evidence that Lurch has not danced with DC yet - he's still standing:devil: And on the subject of accidentally brushing DCs bosom - this could be regarded in some circles as a calibration exercise for the purposes of risk assessment:wink: :devil:

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by xSalsa_Angelx
Why not have a new move prepared for perv's??

"The Perv Basket Slap"

wait till the perv puts you into a basket, and then outstreach your arm, then when he returns you, you have your outstretched arm to accidentelly on purpose slap his face?? Tee Hee :rofl:

To be serious. It seems to me that if the guy does something he ought not to, the lady could do a dummy slap. Hold up her left hand in line with her left eye and slap it. This could be a standard public sign that "I did not like that", not considered significant in itself, but if too many occur with the same guy people could start paying attention.

[fruitcake]

:confused:
Well, for the first time since I started in July a guy thrust his groin and thigh between my legs for one of the moves.
At first I wasnt sure, but second time I said to him,oi mate, i cant do this move when you're that close, you need to get back...
That was it ...over, but after I wondered if I was a bit abrupt, as he seemed genuinly sorry.I'm 99.9% sure he was not being sleazy, seemed very keen to do the move right, my chest was squashed against him also,but it was the intermediate level, so I wondered how long he has been dancing like that with most women feeling it would be impolite to comment.:sorry
However, pretty sure he either will NEVER ask me to dance OR he won't dance with ME like that again,
but one does feel a bit violated i can tell you......:sad:
Fruitcake

[Will]

Originally posted by Jayne
Hi Guys,

just been furkling about and came upon this thread...

There were two guys at hipsters on Wednesdays that I wasn't impressed with. One of them did a move as if he was going to put his hand on my breast - I slapped him across the face. (It was a half joking slap, but a slap nonetheless). The other one I fear is this "lurch" guy - there was a really weird bloke there and "Lurch" does seem to describe him. I obliged for a couple of dances but will try to escape in future.

Apart from them wednesday was a great night!

J :nice:
Back again?

Good to have you back on the forum Jayne. I know who Lurch is, but I was wondering if your other bad experience was with the guy that we all know, or is there another groper doing the rounds now?

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There is clear evidence that Lurch has not danced with DC yet - he's still standing:devil: And on the subject of accidentally brushing DCs bosom - this could be regarded in some circles as a calibration exercise for the purposes of risk assessment:wink: :devil:

I don't believe that either he or I have had the "pleasure"...

...but I'm worried about the circles you may be moving in! Didn't know that you enjoyed living life on the edge. Will have to start calling you Mc007! :devil:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by xSalsa_Angelx
I will have it prepared for Tuesday night and then report back to the forum to see if it works :rofl:

not just on anyone though, a genuine perv..!! LOL
Oh oh... :innocent::devil:

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Will
is there another groper doing the rounds now?

I can assure you he didn't get to grope anything of mine!!! :what:

J :nice:

[Will]

Originally posted by Will
Good to have you back on the forum Jayne. I know who Lurch is, but I was wondering if your other bad experience was with the guy that we all know, or is there another groper doing the rounds now?

Don't often quote myself (nor does anyone else for that matter), but I noticed that a moderator has changed what I've written and removed the description of the mauler that does the rounds in London. I'm not moaning about this at all, but would just ask if it was the best thing to do?

The point of putting in the physical description however was to help other unsuspecting victims possibly avoid future suffering, whilst deliberately not naming him so as to avoid any legal rammifications. May I beg for rethink on this decision? :sorry

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by DangerousCurves
...but I'm worried about the circles you may be moving in! Didn't know that you enjoyed living life on the edge. Will have to start calling you Mc007! :devil:

If you're not on the edge you're taking up too much room:waycool: :devil:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Gus
can there be TWO Lurches?:tears: :tears:

Q ... what is the plural of Lurch?

There is actually a third at (was) Uxbridge; not a perv, but nicknamed Lurch; must just be a popular name...

A ... Lurchers?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Pammy
There is actually a third at (was) Uxbridge; not a perv, but nicknamed Lurch; must just be a popular name...

A ... Lurchers?

There's a Horsham Ceroc Lurch too!


p.s. We there was when I used to go there - it's still a smoking venue:sick:

p.p.s. Just thought I'd mention it:devil:

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There's a Horsham Ceroc Lurch too!




so whats the difference between a lurch and a perv ?

If you decribing someone your effectively naming them anyway

[Pammy]

My lurch isn't a pervert, he just bares a striking resemblance to the one on the Adams Family; nothing dirty about him...

Px

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by stewart38
so whats the difference between a lurch and a perv ?

If you decribing someone your effectively naming them anyway

Thank you Stewart38. I'd just like to point out that the Horsham lurch is called that because of the way he looks. As far as I know he's a nice guy and not a perv at all:D

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Pammy
My lurch isn't a pervert, he just bares a striking resemblance to the one on the Adams Family; nothing dirty about him...

Px

SNAP!!!

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Pammy
There is actually a third at (was) Uxbridge; not a perv, but nicknamed Lurch; must just be a popular name...

A ... Lurchers?

I have been reading this thread with some apprehension because apparently I was nicknamed "Lurch" at one firm I worked for long ago (I only discovered this on my leaving card :tears: )

For the record I have never been to Hipsters, have always wanted to go, and now face the prospect with apprehension.

Will that be the week the villagers turn up with their pitchforks and torches (Aaaarh - that must be him ...)

[Pammy]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Aaaarh - that must be him ...

You mean, that must be them... :wink:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
and now face the prospect with apprehension. I hadn't realised there were so many Lurches out there, but don't worry, we know which one we're talking about.

Greg

PS We're not anti-Lurchist, just anti-pervist.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I hadn't realised there were so many Lurches out there, but don't worry, we know which one we're talking about.

Greg

PS We're not anti-Lurchist, just anti-pervist.

I suppose with such a 'loom' (suggested collective term for a group of lurches) of lurches in the dance world it was inevitable that there'd be a 'black lurch':wink:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Will
The point of putting in the physical description however was to help other unsuspecting victims possibly avoid future suffering, whilst deliberately not naming him so as to avoid any legal rammifications. May I beg for rethink on this decision? :sorry Sorry Will, I edited your post, but forgot to email you with the reasons.
While I understand that you want to protect unsuspecting dancers, I would rather not have descriptions that can identify the guilty, as they could potentially match other (innocent) dancers, and a public forum is not the ideal place for witch hunting.

I am very keen to rid all dance venues of pervs, but feel that a PM / email and a direct word with the organizers (with a view to monitor / ban the guilty) would be more suitable.

The thread is great for highlighting the issues and what is / isn't acceptable behaviour.

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
'loom' (suggested collective term for a group of lurches)

McG, you crack me up :rofl: :rofl:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Pammy
McG, you crack me up :rofl: :rofl:

Much of the work had already been done before I met you:wink:

[Sheepman]

The Loom was threadless, - the Lurch didn't appear last night, so I couldn't complete my task. I should have taken the opportunity on Tuesday when he made a surprise appearance, but I was so busy working, that the very few dances I had were too precious to cut short. I did take a careful look at him during the lesson, and didn't see anything pervy going on, but then the lights were up . . .

I'm not around next week, so it will be down to others to keep the "perv watch" going.

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
The Loom was threadless, - the Lurch didn't appear last night, so I couldn't complete my task. I should have taken the opportunity on Tuesday when he made a surprise appearance, but I was so busy working, that the very few dances I had were too precious to cut short. I did take a careful look at him during the lesson, and didn't see anything pervy going on, but then the lights were up . . .

I'm not around next week, so it will be down to others to keep the "perv watch" going.

Greg

I've already spent some time observing our Lurch. He didn't seem to be doing anything differently from anyone else apart from quite a few moves where he sort of marched his partner around the floor - which is hardly pervy. I think that there are some moves which some guys can do without seeming pervy that other guys can't. Maybe a woman can explain the difference.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I've already spent some time observing our Lurch. He didn't seem to be doing anything differently from anyone else apart from quite a few moves where he sort of marched his partner around the floor - which is hardly pervy. I think that there are some moves which some guys can do without seeming pervy that other guys can't. Maybe a woman can explain the difference.
It's not the marching, which is just strange. It's also the yanking and forcing.

But most of all it's the groin grinding. :sick:

Chris

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think that there are some moves which some guys can do without seeming pervy that other guys can't. Maybe a woman can explain the difference.

You are quite right Andy. Some men CAN get away with anything.

I can think of a couple of my acquaintance who could probably get away anything up to and including removing all their clothing and three quarters of mine in the course of a dance without me batting an eyelid. (well, a bit of an exaggeration, but you know what I mean :blush: )

But equally I can think of a few chaps who just need to murmer "you're looking lovely tonight" and I feel I need a shower!

Somehow a lady's natural instinct for self preservation steps in to tell her when someone means only harmless mutually enjoyed fun - and when its creepy.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by DangerousCurves
You are quite right Andy. Some men CAN get away with anything.

I can think of a couple of my acquaintance who could probably get away anything up to and including removing all their clothing and three quarters of mine in the course of a dance without me batting an eyelid. (well, a bit of an exaggeration, but you know what I mean :blush: )

But equally I can think of a few chaps who just need to murmer "you're looking lovely tonight" and I feel I need a shower!

Somehow a lady's natural instinct for self preservation steps in to tell her when someone means only harmless mutually enjoyed fun - and when its creepy.

I think the problem is that guys like Lurch see guys like me calibrating your curves and think they can do it too:sick: The reason I get away with it is that it's a mutual thing, we're indulging in some harmless flirting between friends, really we're pretending - at least I think I am:confused: We do this for fun, I don't really know why, maybe it's a bonding thing...

So what does Lurch do? He might think "That curvaceous woman seems to like a guy pressing against her and wiggling, I'll do it too! Big mistake, think sharp stainless steel blades slipping slowly across each other:what:

Maybe what we need is some kind of caption that reads 'We're mates and we're pretending - do any of this and you'll be singing a few octaves higher!'

But seriously, Dangerous Curves is a formidable woman (read scary) and can look after herself. The problem is that some people are less confident and will just remove themselves from the situation - i.e. the will stop coming dancing:tears: Wouldn't it be better for all of us if the creepy guy was told he was no longer welcome? It even makes business sense:waycool:

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think the problem is that guys like Lurch see guys like me calibrating your curves and think they can do it too:sick: The reason I get away with it is that it's a mutual thing, we're indulging in some harmless flirting between friends, really we're pretending - at least I think I am:confused: We do this for fun, I don't really know why, maybe it's a bonding thing...



I think the reason why friends enjoy dancing outrageously together on occasion is because they both know that its a safe environment to let down their hair together, and to "play" with no serious intent. Also it can be a wonderful celebration of your friend - "go on Lovely, show off, let everyone see how wonderful you are" - and so can feel uplifting, liberating and very affirming of the affection between you.

I often watch a couple performing spectacular drops and lifts, or sultry UCP moves and at the end of the track as they part, often with a hug or a joke, I understand that they have shared such an experience - and I think most other people realise this too. There may be a few people who don't understand basic social etiquette - but I suspect most creeps do know that their actions are unacceptable even if they defend them in public.

p.s. make mental note - stop scaring Andy....:blush:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by DangerousCurves


p.s. make mental note - stop scaring Andy....:blush:

Me scared?

Let me just compare armoury, tall, curvaceous woman with brains vs short, balding wimp with gender identity crisis?

Yep, I'm scared:tears:

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Me scared?

Let me just compare armoury, tall, curvaceous woman with brains vs short, balding wimp with gender identity crisis?

Yep, I'm scared:tears:


COBBLERS :rofl: :rofl: there was you saying to my friend Carol last weekend - "I like standing next to Jon L cos it makes me look tall ":rofl:

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Let me just compare armoury, tall, curvaceous woman with brains vs short, balding wimp with gender identity crisis?

Yep, I'm scared:tears:

Well, I can't do much about the height, or the curves... but I could try simpering mindlessly next time we meet?

On second thoughts - I couldn't possibly keep it up all evening without wanting to give myself a good kicking... :wink:

I'll just have to concentrate on building up your own self image as a blonde pouting pocket Venus/Adonis! :devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by DangerousCurves
I'll just have to concentrate on building up your own self image as a blonde pouting pocket Venus/Adonis! :devil:

Of course! That's why I like dressing up in women's clothes - at 5'7" I'm tall for a woman:devil:

[foxylady]

Originally posted by DangerousCurves
I think the reason why friends enjoy dancing outrageously together on occasion is because they both know that its a safe environment to let down their hair together, and to "play" with no serious intent. Also it can be a wonderful celebration of your friend - "go on Lovely, show off, let everyone see how wonderful you are" - and so can feel uplifting, liberating and very affirming of the affection between you.



I absolutely agreee with this, and I can be very outrageous with people I know well and trust - and its all playing...

The trouble with Andy's point about excluding the 'pervs' is that it is sometimes difficult to say who is and who isn't. There is one guy at Hipsters who I dance very UCP with, and it probably looks as if we know each other very well. He's a friend who I trust. But I have a female friend who hates dancing with him, thinks he's a complete perv and thinks he is getting off on all of it. I don't, she does - who is right, and should he therefore be banned ?

Having said that he doesn't force moves on women, and doesn't pick on the young or the new.....

[Retread]

I've been following recent "Lurch-watch" reports from observers at various London/South East venues, and it's only just dawned on me (from most recent posts on this subject) that we had hosted this guy for some weeks at a Ceroc Surrey venue last year.

As a crew member, I was asked to inform him in explicit terms of the difference between official and acceptable MJ moves and the "style" he was using. When confronted with this, he tried to justify his actions be citing his victims' apparent acceptance, but that doesn't cut it for me. My evil eye technique, liberally applied, does work, and I think he graced us with his presence just once more before departing to haunt other venues in West/South West London.

I was rendered almost speechless, however, when other folks subsequently mentioned that he'd been warned off at other South-East venues: no-one thought to tell me that he was a serial-offender.

I can only regret that in fixing our local problem, we may have passed it on to our neighbours rather than effecting a permanent solution.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by foxylady
The trouble with Andy's point about excluding the 'pervs' is that it is sometimes difficult to say who is and who isn't.

I suppose what I meant is the intractable pervs. I think that women should complain to the organiser and the organiser should speak with the guy. I think the initial approach should be along the lines of coaching. Something like 'I've had a woman mention to me that you make her feel uncomfortable'. I'm sure most guys would be mortified to know that a woman had reacted to them in this way and would be delighted to receive a bit of advice/coaching from the organiser.

If women continued to complain the organiser would need to be a bit more 'directed'. And finally, if the complaints continue, the organiser must eventually come to the conclusion that the guy isn't doing it by accident. And, once that conculsion is reached, the organiser really has no other option.

Maybe an organiser could have a sort of 'Perverts Charter'. One which takes into account the need of women to feel safe from pervs but also allows the guys to adjust their behavior and maintain their dignity.

I believe that it is up to the women to identify these guys to the organiser so he can implement his 'Perverts Charter'. It really isn't fair for a guy to unknowingly get labelled as a perv when he doesn't think he's being one - someone needs to tell him about how people react to him (speaking personally, I am regularly given advice about how people see me, but some people aren't 'lucky' enough to have such outspoken critics).

So, my advice girls, is tell the organiser about guys you think are pervs and if he/she doesn't do something about it privately, tell EVERYONE!

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
So, my advice girls, is tell the organiser about guys you think are pervs and if he/she doesn't do something about it privately, tell EVERYONE! Well I finally did it on Tuesday night, it was some weeks after the incident, but the Lurch was there at the end of the evening, so I had my "chat" with him. I won't go into details here, just to say that I was disappointed that he didn't seem more apologetic, and he seemed too defensive. He did seem genuinely upset by what I had to say, and I may even have had a twinge of conscience about this, but my mission was far more important!
As I discussed "inappropriate contact" his defense was that MJ has got much closer in recent years, and he was just copying what he had seen teachers do with relative strangers (we didn't discuss why he thought they were relative strangers). So for some people it may be a case of watching others and thinking "I can do that", not a good defense IMHO.

He did say one very sensible thing, "I wish she had said something to me at the time", which is why I repeat Andy's quote. Admittedly, in the case in question, the woman was in a state of shock, and just wanted to get away as fast as possible.

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I won't go into details here, just to say that I was disappointed that he didn't seem more apologetic, and he seemed too defensive. He did seem genuinely upset by what I had to say, and I may even have had a twinge of conscience about this, but my mission was far more important!

Well done Greg

Good on ya, mate. :cheers:

You can forget the conscience twinge- and the fact that he wasn't more obviously contrite just proves that you were 100% right.



his defense was that MJ has got much closer in recent years, and he was just copying what he had seen teachers do with relative strangers. So for some people it may be a case of watching others and thinking "I can do that", not a good defense IMHO.

Indeed not. It's a completely rubbish defense.

Normal people wouldn't see a couple kissing in a park and assume it was therefore Ok to go up to a random stranger and snog them.

Chris

[Chris]

Well done to Sheepman - sounds to me like you handled it well.

A good point that has been mentioned but that should be stressed IMHO is to handle the matter if possible there and then, as soon as possible after the incident. I think it should be done unemotionally, swiftly and specifically. It's best if the woman herself says something, failing that, someone on her behalf immediately after speaking to her.

It is much more difficult after the event and also makes the actual process subject to abuse (accusing someone of it unfairly, even in good faith, can do an incredible amount of damage as well).

Women (and men!) should also IMO be taught methods for achieving proper body distance when someone gets closer than you want. Nigel and Nina often do this in Blues classes. There are some moves though where the lady has little control - 'apparent' acceptance isn't very good on it's own. For standard closed (but not personal) moves, I personally think that getting verbal permission before the move, and afterwards checking verbally that it was ok and felt comfortable, is better. I don't personally like UCP as a dance style though unless it is just between me and someone I'm very close to. Closed moves between two experienced dancers who both have a professional attitude and respect for each other is a different matter however.

Some people seem to have a thing about the subject and bang on about it a lot - much better to confront people as Sheepman did, calmly, specifically, and in a timely manner. The response he received shows that the man at least didn't turn on him, and probably took the point on board - so everyone benefitted.

[Martin]

Originally posted by ChrisA


Normal people wouldn't see a couple kissing in a park and assume it was therefore Ok to go up to a random stranger and snog them.

Chris

So true,

I have toned my dancing down to the Aussie market. They are far more reserved and moves orientated here.

I would never consider "risky" moves with a "newie" or someone who I did not think could handle it.

I have however had several complaints from my regular partners that I no longer "do that stuff they like":yeah:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Chris
It is much more difficult after the event and also makes the actual process subject to abuse (accusing someone of it unfairly, even in good faith, can do an incredible amount of damage as well).
I can assure anyone concerned about this episode that those of us that have been involved in the accumulation of evidence regarding this and other recent incidents have been scrupulously careful to ensure that no unfair accusations have been levelled.

Greg's actions have been exemplary in every respect.

Chris

[Will]

Way to go Sheepman!!!!

Takes a lot of guts to do that, but I'm sure it's worth it. You handled it well too, rather than just lashing out!

I've been pysching myself up to challenge "Shirtman". To be honest I've not heard any complaints in the last few weeks about him so maybe he is changing his ways. I see him at Chimes and Hipsters, so I'll be keeping an eye / ear out....

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Will
Way to go Sheepman!!!!

:waycool:

I'm sure that many women will be very grateful...

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Will
I've been pysching myself up to challenge "Shirtman". To be honest I've not heard any complaints in the last few weeks about him so maybe he is changing his ways.
He isn't, he's just being very careful not to overstep lines too obviously at the moment. It's still creepy dancing with him, I am reliably informed.

Only a matter of time, I regret to say. In that case, challenging him will achieve nothing - he's been banned from several venues, had some very frank feedback, but just sleazes around at places he hasn't been banned from.

IMO it's about time he was banned from Hipsters.

Chris

[Retread]

I'd like to add my thanks to Sheepman for his stand on this, and for taking appropriate action.

The general consensus is that we should sort these situations out promptly, and I note from this thread that there's a strong majority of "forumites" that are prepared to do just that.

Again, Thank You, Sheepman.

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I'm sure that many women will be very grateful... :blush: That's good enough for me :blush: :blush:
Originally posted by Retread Again, Thank You, Sheepman. And that's even better :blush: :blush:

I must say that it was difficult to do, but not that difficult, my regret, not acting more quickly, and my excuse (not a credible one) being that I barely knew the lady involved at the time. So my plea would be for anyone coming across such situations, think calmly, but act quickly, but of course this really applies to the women more than the guys. There again, if you don't feel able to handle the confrontation right away, then talk to someone who can.

Greg

[Martin]

Originally posted by Retread
I'd like to add my thanks to Sheepman for his stand on this, and for taking appropriate action.

The general consensus is that we should sort these situations out promptly, and I note from this thread that there's a strong majority of "forumites" that are prepared to do just that.

Again, Thank You, Sheepman.

This is indeed a good thing to do.

It would be good to reasure "newbies", and the "How young is too young" readers that this is not the norm, just a so small (2 or 3) number.

Still far safer than nightclubs and pubs to go to Ceroc. The safest environment for shy or young people who want to socialise.

I once worked in a "true" bikers bar (Hells Angels chapters also involved), and it had far less trouble than all the up-market town bars as it was self regulating and the "locals" did not put up with trouble. In the rare occations I had to "bounce", the local regulars were also ****ed off and helped out, normally 6 regulars were behind me to ensure it happened.

Such a safe place, keep up the good work Sheepman, ChrisA, AndyMc et al.

[Lory]

Originally posted by Will

I've been pysching myself up to challenge "Shirtman". To be honest I've not heard any complaints in the last few weeks about him so maybe he is changing his ways. I see him at Chimes and Hipsters, so I'll be keeping an eye / ear out.... I've started seeing him at Ashtons on a Wednesday now:sick:

[Martin]

Originally posted by Lory
I've started seeing him at Ashtons on a Wednesday now:sick:

Would posting a pic be over the top for an open forum?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Lory
I've started seeing him at Ashtons on a Wednesday now:sick:
Talk to Linda, Lory.

Chris

[Graham W]

Nice one 'Sheepman' 4 talking to said person..

It does take guts 2 speak out but I new one lady who threatened to hit one person at Hipsters after a repeat dose of 'touchy, touchy' in a lesson and his response was 'I think it is best we do not dance again..'


G

[Jooles]

There has been a man who regularly asks me to dance who always tries to have a quick grope under the pretext of moving his hand across my back. I have put up with it for ages but finally last week I asked him to be more careful where he puts his hands. He is now fine when he dances with me, but other girls still have a problem with him.

I realise now that I should have said something ages ago, but I used to wonder whether I was over reacting. It's now a relief not to have to run around the dance floor trying to avoid him all night.

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Well I finally did it on Tuesday night, it was some weeks after the incident, but the Lurch was there at the end of the evening, so I had my "chat" with him. . . .

Greg

My hero! :clap:

LilyB

[Katie]

Originally posted by LilyB
My hero! :clap:

LilyB

Mine too! :hug:

Kate

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I must say that it was difficult to do, but not that difficult, my regret, not acting more quickly, and my excuse (not a credible one) being that I barely knew the lady involved at the time. So my plea would be for anyone coming across such situations, think calmly, but act quickly, but of course this really applies to the women more than the guys. There again, if you don't feel able to handle the confrontation right away, then talk to someone who can.

Greg

I would have had a perfect opportunity as he'd sleazed at Sue. The problem was that she handled the situation herself and didn't even think it was worth mentioning until weeks later when somone else raised the subject. Sue wasn't really that bothered herself as she's used to handling 'odd' men (obviously:tears: ). I don't really think she'd realised that she could have asked me or or one of the organisers to do something about unwanted attention.

Some women are too embarassed to complain, some too nice, some handle it themselves - they could even do all three. What we need is for them to know there is a proscribed way of handling creepy guys - and that requires some kind of message from the person putting on the night!

[Jayne]

There was another bloke at Hipsters last night who seemed to be having trouble with the octopus: instead of running his hand along the back of my waist as I came across in front of him he tended to do it along my bra, with obvious consequences when his hand came round to my side... Now there are two mitigating factors in here: first, I don't think he's been doing it (dancing) that long and second, he was significantly taller than me and tall new guys generally have no concept that a short lass's waist is below theirs.

Solution: brute force. As he wrapped me in I just made sure I pulled his hand down until it was on my waist and held on for a second longer than necessary to make sure it didn't spring up again. I did this for the rest of the dance so I didn't give him to chance to prove that he'd learnt.

Did anyone else encounter this last night??

J :nice:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Jayne
There was another bloke at Hipsters last night Hmmm could it have be "Shirtman" pretending to be a beginner?

Greg

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Hmmm could it have be "Shirtman" pretending to be a beginner?
If "shirtman" is "face-lift-man" then no - I know who he is. I'll PM you more...

J :nice:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jayne
If "shirtman" is "face-lift-man" then no - I know who he is. I'll PM you more...
No, Shirtman wasn't there last night.

"Face-lift-man", who was there last night, is a bit odd, though no evidence AFAIK that he's a perv.

Chris

[Sheepman]

Now I'm confused as to who's who?:confused:

greg

[Jayne]

Originally posted by ChrisA
"Face-lift-man", who was there last night, is a bit odd, though no evidence AFAIK that he's a perv.
Agreed.

J

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Hmmm could it have be "Shirtman" pretending to be a beginner?
I think I know who Shirtman is.

I'm not THAT short you know!!! humph!

J :rofl:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Now I'm confused as to who's who?:confused:

PMed you, Greg.

Shirtman definitely NOT there last night.

I propose calling this one "Tennis Court Man" for future reference.

Franck wouldn't like me to be too specific as to why here, but it's in the PM.

Chris

[spindr]

Originally posted by Jayne
...he was significantly taller than me and tall new guys generally have no concept that a short lass's waist is below theirs.

Well some of us older one's do realise this (I'm 6'4'') :)
We also have to react quickly if a shorter lady overturns as we try to take up a lindy/ballroom style dancehold, and remove the hand as the lady turns her chest towards it.

And of course, some shorter ladies tend to drop their hands off of the man's waist -- e.g. after the first part of a double man-spin -- think about it.

SpinDr.

[Retread]

Re: Tall/Short

You have an advantage over me, Spindr, I'm 5' 5", and eye level with an exceptionally tall partner (and several DO come to mind) dictates that I dance with my eyes closed half the time! :innocent:

[Martin]

Originally posted by Retread
Re: Tall/Short

You have an advantage over me, Spindr, I'm 5' 5", and eye level with an exceptionally tall partner (and several DO come to mind) dictates that I dance with my eyes closed half the time! :innocent:

You are SOOOO missing out :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Katie]

Originally posted by ChrisA

I propose calling this one "Tennis Court Man" for future reference.
Chris

I think i know the one. I'll assume your phrase is referring to what he wears?? (i don't want to be too specific) I have danced with him on a few occasions, sweet guy, but he can be a bit clumsy sometimes.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Retread
RI'm 5' 5", and eye level with an exceptionally tall partner (and several DO come to mind) dictates that I dance with my eyes closed half the time! There is a famous clip of Mickey Rooney collecting a Golden Globe Award from Jayne Mansfield. She was tall and very well endowed, and he was at eye level with her most famous assets.

http://www.netropolisusa.biz/cgi-bin/prem_im/premium41.html

[spindr]

Originally posted by Retread
You have an advantage over me, Spindr, I'm 5' 5", and eye level with an exceptionally tall partner (and several DO come to mind) dictates that I dance with my eyes closed half the time! :innocent:

Well, there's always the option of leading moves while on one knee, plus comb-duck-spins, half-nelsons, etc. :)

SpinDr.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by DavidB
There is a famous clip of Mickey Rooney collecting a Golden Globe Award from Jayne Mansfield. She was tall and very well endowed, and he was at eye level with her most famous assets.
[/url]

It looks to me as if it's more like chin level.

And this brings me on to another point that's been puzzling me. Roger Chin - is he called that because it's his surname or is it because, being short, his chin sort of 'nestles' in some close moves?:devil:

[Retread]

Isn't this likely to encourage others to suspect louche activities, of the sort that we're trying to stamp out?

I'm eternally grateful, though, for the temptations that come my way! :)

[Martin]

Originally posted by Retread
Isn't this likely to encourage others to suspect louche activities, of the sort that we're trying to stamp out?

I'm eternally grateful, though, for the temptations that come my way! :)

Said in jest, I would NEVER encorage a lurch...:tears:

looks like the Micky Rooney technique comes in here...:waycool:

[Jayne]

General question: What the hell is it that makes a guy think it's OK to leer at a girl??? ESPECIALLY when she's a COMPLETE stranger, walking down the street, minding her own business???? :angry:

What underdeveloped part of a man's primitive "brain" is responsible for this??? :angry:

Are there girls out there who do this to guys?

Guys: can you shed any light on this for me because I sure as hell don't understand it. WHY? What triggers it?

Girls: should all guys be neutered at birth? Or should we start getting our own back?

J :angry:

[JamesGeary]

Because men and women repress different things?

http://www.capmag.com/articlePrint.asp?ID=3369

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Jayne
General question: Maybe a general question, but I get the feeling that there's a specific story behind it, do you want to tell?

Don't forget that all men are kids at heart, just with slightly grown brains, which they keep between their legs. It's a good job that women feel sorry for them!

Greg

[Jayne]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
[B]Because men and women repress different things?

That just provides a flimsy and superficial explanation of why man respond more than women to visual stimuli.

It doesn't explain why some men think that stimulation automatically gives permission to leer (or perv).

IT DOESN'T.

J :angry:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jayne
It doesn't explain why some men think that stimulation automatically gives permission to leer (or perv).

That's easy to explain.

They are stupid.

Chris

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Jayne
General question: What the hell is it that makes a guy think it's OK to leer at a girl??? ESPECIALLY when she's a COMPLETE stranger, walking down the street, minding her own business???? :angry:

What underdeveloped part of a man's primitive "brain" is responsible for this??? :angry:

Are there girls out there who do this to guys?

Guys: can you shed any light on this for me because I sure as hell don't understand it. WHY? What triggers it?

Girls: should all guys be neutered at birth? Or should we start getting our own back?

J :angry: Guys are programmed by evolution to look for potential mates. That part of their brain is the most highly developed. Girls also respond to how a guy looks, but more so to how he looks at them.

Girls are programmed to be looked at, which is why so many of you spend so much time on clothes and make-up. Why so many of you look good rather than comfortable. You put up with "these heels" to attract "those heels".

[spindr]

Originally posted by Jayne
General question: What the hell is it that makes a guy think it's OK to leer at a girl??? ESPECIALLY when she's a COMPLETE stranger, walking down the street, minding her own business???? :angry:

Might I suggest:
1). bad manners
2). good taste.

SpinDr.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Jayne
That just provides a flimsy and superficial explanation of why man respond more than women to visual stimuli.

It doesn't explain why some men think that stimulation automatically gives permission to leer (or perv).

IT DOESN'T.

J :angry:

It doesn't give any explanation of why men respond more than women to visual stimuli. The author said he doesn't care why. I don't know where flimsy comes into it.

The whole article was only 4 paragraphs long.... It might be interesting to read.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by spindr
Might I suggest:
1). bad manners
2). good taste.

:hug:

[Jayne]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
The whole article was only 4 paragraphs long.... It might be interesting to read.
Hi James,

I did read it - hence my conclusion that it was a flimsy and superficial explanation of why men respond more than women to visual stimuli (the answer in the article being that women repress the value of visual stimulation in preference for other qualities like personality traits while men do the opposite).

However this doesn't explain why some men feel that it is acceptable to leer at perfect strangers. (I would say "why men THINK it is acceptable..." but thinking is beyond them IMHO.)

J

[Chris]

Originally posted by Jayne
However this doesn't explain why some men feel that it is acceptable to leer at perfect strangers. (I would say "why men THINK it is acceptable..." but thinking is beyond them IMHO.)


You're probably right - they're not thinking. It might be a 'natural' reaction, especially for a man who's feeling particularly sex-starved (and so more susceptible), but most men either learn to be gentlemanly enough to disguise it or shut it out of their heads altogether. But some don't - same as some people think it's ok to spit in the street, swear in a loud voice, shout into their mobile phones. Most people are blissfully unaware of being bad-mannered, or defend their actions by suggesting that those offended must be stuck-up.

But there's attention and there's attention. For all the women I know that feel horrified when building site workers whistle at them, I know as many that would like to be whistled at. This sort of thing used to be socially 'acceptable' and is now socially taboo. But leering has always been the sign of an ill-bred male IMO.

One of the things I look for in male friends is their ability to be gentlemanly in the company of the opposite sex - I find it embarrassing if they are yobbish. It's like walking into a classy nightclub only to be followed in by a loudmouth who is improperly dressed. Ceroc crosses social barriers - mostly this is a good thing - sometimes it's just a pain. Dealing with leering, sadly, must be a big challenge for any pretty girl. Best of luck.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Jayne
However this doesn't explain why some men feel that it is acceptable to leer at perfect strangers. (I would say "why men THINK it is acceptable..." but thinking is beyond them IMHO.)

J

I make a special effort not to leer at perfect strangers - and perfect or imperfect friends too.

But what is 'leering'? It seems to be a human instinct to leer and must perform some function in the animal kingdom. It's obviously part of natural selection but does it help identify a partner as suitable or unsuitable to contribute to the future gene-pool of the species?

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
It's obviously part of natural selection but does it help identify a partner as suitable or unsuitable to contribute to the future gene-pool of the species?
TOTALLY UNSUITABLE.

J :mad:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Jayne
TOTALLY UNSUITABLE.

J :mad:

All we've got to do now is work out how to sterilise them without them knowing:devil:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
But what is 'leering'? It seems to be a human instinct to leer and must perform some function in the animal kingdom. It's obviously part of natural selection but does it help identify a partner as suitable or unsuitable to contribute to the future gene-pool of the species?

I think BigDJiver had it before. He said women love to be looked at. Sure, but only sometimes, and with particular people. In those situations the woman would react positively.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
All we've got to do now is work out how to sterilise them
An autoclave?

Chris

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
All we've got to do now is work out how to sterilise them without them knowing:devil:

Castration?

[Martin]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I think BigDJiver had it before. He said women love to be looked at. Sure, but only sometimes, and with particular people. In those situations the woman would react positively.

If women loved to be looked at, only sometimes and with particular people...

Does that make unsuitable mates Lurches?

Does that make the women who dress with low cut tops etc. open to suggestion? If that suggestion is from the wrong guy, does that make them pervs - the right mate being "not a perv"?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Martin
Does that make unsuitable mates Lurches?
Does that make the women who dress with low cut tops etc. open to suggestion? If that suggestion is from the wrong guy, does that make them pervs - the right mate being "not a perv"?
Far too black and white this.

It's a spectrum - with an infinite number of shades of grey... which starts with noticing, then appreciating what is seen, and continues into acknowledging and expressing that appreciation.

It's all about choosing where to be on that line at any given moment with a given individual. The Lurches, leerers and leches of this world are simply too limited in their ability to choose an appropriate place to be.

Such limitations should bar them from the dance venues.

At least until it becomes legal to use a cattle brand on them, that is :devil:

Chris

[Martin]

Originally posted by ChrisA

It's a spectrum - with an infinite number of shades of grey... which starts with noticing, then appreciating what is seen, and continues into acknowledging and expressing that appreciation.

Chris

Far too sensible a reply :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Must be hard for some though.

Me HATE those thick skinned lurches, although do love those girls who make an effort to impress :clap: :clap:

[ChrisA]

Me HATE those thick skinned lurches, although do love those girls who make an effort to impress :clap: :clap:
.................. :yeah: :cheers:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Martin

Does that make the women who dress with low cut tops etc. open to suggestion? If that suggestion is from the wrong guy, does that make them pervs - the right mate being "not a perv"?

Yeah weird, isn't it.

I know this couple, the guy asked her out every week for a whole year. She said no each time. After a year she finally agreed to go on a date with him. They are now happily married. True story.

Whenever I tell this story the women go all misty eyed and wish such an incurably romantic guy was after them.

But if I tell the story but leave out the ending, then people say what the thicked skinned prat he was.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I know this couple, the guy asked her out every week for a whole year. She said no each time. After a year she finally agreed to go on a date with him.
Bless.

But I bet he didn't ask in a leering way that grossed her out.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Martin
Does that make the women who dress with low cut tops etc. open to suggestion?
Given I was wearing a huge waterproof jacket and an ankle length skirt at the time surely the only I was suggesting was that I was trudging to work in the rain?? :what:

J

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jayne
a huge waterproof jacket and an ankle length skirt
:drool:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Bless.

But I bet he didn't ask in a leering way that grossed her out.

The story was an analogy for that.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Jayne
huge waterproof jacket and an ankle length skirtJ

:drool: :drool: :drool:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Martin
:drool: :drool: :drool:
I wish I could do original material like this :D :D

[Martin]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I wish I could do original material like this :D :D

Copying is the best form of flattery... consider yourself flattered...:D :cheers:

So good to have someone agree with you...:clap:

[Lynn]

Originally posted by Chris
But there's attention and there's attention. For all the women I know that feel horrified when building site workers whistle at them, I know as many that would like to be whistled at. This sort of thing used to be socially 'acceptable' and is now socially taboo. But leering has always been the sign of an ill-bred male IMO.

I agree it’s not the looking at women but how the men are looking is the problem.

Women do generally pay more attention to their appearance than men (though often its more for other women, how many guys are going to notice whether your boots and bag match, or your accessories!) – and if a guy gives an appreciative smile then that isn’t usually a problem, its taken as a compliment. It’s the ‘leering’ type of look that Jayne referred to that is unpleasant.

So is it manners or attitude that makes the difference?

IMO it goes beyond manners and is a reflection of that individual’s attitude to women. What I don’t understand is how the ‘leerers’ don’t understand how much their approach repels women!

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Lynn
if a guy gives an appreciative smile then that isn’t usually a problem, its taken as a compliment. It’s the ‘leering’ type of look that Jayne referred to that is unpleasant.

Absolutely! If your man gently wraps you in his arms, looks into your eyes and tells you that you look beautiful this evening it's big brownie points to him. But if it's a guy in a pub/street who stares at you and then grunts something to you then he should get a knee shoved in his "brain" IMHO. (if only I was sufficiently confident that I was stong enough to take him on!!!)

J :whistle:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
All we've got to do now is work out how to sterilise them without them knowing
Originally posted by Jayne
Castration?
OUCH! (Benen I kors) I think I might just notice that! There again, maybe the species you're referring to wouldn't notice?

Greg

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Jayne
If your man gently wraps you in his arms, looks into your eyes and tells you that you look beautiful this evening it's big brownie points to him. Are we talking about on the dancefloor here? If so, I would never (?) be that forward in dancing, should I be? (Anyway Jayne, you can take it as read :blush: )

Greg

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Sheepman
[B]Are we talking about on the dancefloor here? If so, I would never (?) be that forward in dancing, should I be? (Anyway Jayne, you can take it as read :blush: )
No. I meant it in the "your man" sense not "the one you're borrowing for three minutes" sense. :what:

:blush:

J :flower:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Jayne
I meant it in the "your man" sense :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Phew, I'm glad I got that clear, before I got (?) a reputation!

Greg

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by Sheepman
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Phew, I'm glad I got that clear, before I got (?) a reputation!

Greg

Well you seem to be getting a reputation for the "3 minute" thing (see Secret Valentine thread - I can't do that Click Here thingy) :rofl: :hug:

[Lynn]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Are we talking about on the dancefloor here? I know it was referring to the dancerfloor but I was complimented by a complete stranger during a dance recently, he wasn't trying to chat me up (he was there with his girlfriend I think), but it was a social and I had made an effort with a nice top etc and it was a polite comment that was appreciated. Totally different from the leering thing. I think the only way the leering type will learn is from repeated comments from other guys not to do it, some will never reform, but some might!

[Chris]

Originally posted by Lynn
I know it was referring to the dancerfloor but I was complimented by a complete stranger during a dance recently
It's something that's so easy to do - there's almost always something nice that can form the basis of a genuine compliment - and it makes a lovely bridge. My women friends know I do this quite often even when I meet them. I don't like to 'chat' to people when dancing but a simple word or two is nice. :) I like it when a woman compliments me too! (not so much to work on there but do I get the occasional compliment lol)

[Graham]

Originally posted by Jayne
General question: What the hell is it that makes a guy think it's OK to leer at a girl??? ESPECIALLY when she's a COMPLETE stranger, walking down the street, minding her own business???? :angry: Perhaps it's because they feel as if they stand absolutely no chance of actually making a serious impression on someone who is obviously out of their league, but want to make their desire obvious on the remote chance that you're a rabid nymphomaniac. :wink:

[Martin]

Originally posted by Graham
Perhaps it's because they feel as if they stand absolutely no chance of actually making a serious impression on someone who is obviously out of their league, but want to make their desire obvious on the remote chance that you're a rabid nymphomaniac. :wink:

Maybe a numbers game, if 1 in 10 are rabid nymphomaniacs - ask 10 = sorted. :kiss:

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Wendy
Now I've started....

I can just imagine the courtroom scene...


............


J- Case dismissed ! And Ms Law maybe if you toned down your dancing a little ..... (under breath - wiggling in that fashion tut tut) .....

Wxxx

Oh my God Wendy this is brilliant and kind of sums it up!

Such a lot has been said and it has taken me ages to get through all the threads. My first reaction was to never dance UC&P with anyone again! however, these are wonderful moves with the right people and it would be a pity to let the sleazy folk ruin it for everyone else. Respect is the key word!

Can't wait for the BB dance!

Sandy:wink:

[fruitcake]

:wink:
Whadya do with someone who just wants to be up close,very close,but seems friendly , very friendly rather than leering or sleazy.....then presses wet head against you, leaving damp patch in your hair,and doesnt actually dance, just kinda hugs,I'm not speaking about anyone we know by the way.....(in case of any paranoid men our there!), gotta stiff neck I did, trying to keep my head away, but next time I've decided just to say...."too close luv..too close" and hopefully that won't offend!

:blush:
Fruity

[Retread]

We are talking about a CAT here, aren't we? ;)

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Sandy
My first reaction was to never dance UC&P with anyone again!
You?? sorry, but what moves would that leave us?:confused:
:devil: :rofl: :hug: :hug:

[Graham]

Well, statistically it had to happen eventually.....:yeah: :wink:

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Gadget
You?? sorry, but what moves would that leave us?:confused:
:devil: :rofl: :hug: :hug:

Em:blush: now you come to mention it! OK maybe I was being a bit drastic!:sick:

See you Tuesday!:wink:

Sandy

[fruitcake]

Originally posted by Retread
We are talking about a CAT here, aren't we? ;)

Yes, but my partner wasnt!!!!::wink:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Sandy
Em:blush: now you come to mention it! OK maybe I was being a bit drastic!:sick:

See you Tuesday!:wink:

Sandy


No more UCP moves Sandy ??????? Shouldn't I bother asking again then :D :na:

[Bill]

Originally posted by fruitcake
Yes, but my partner wasnt!!!!::wink:



sorry...................:rolleyes: :eek: :na:

[fruitcake]

Originally posted by Bill
sorry...................:rolleyes: :eek: :na:

Youre alright Bill, he aint a forumite, and also I didnt dance with you that night!!!

[Bill]

Originally posted by fruitcake
Youre alright Bill, he aint a forumite, and also I didnt dance with you that night!!!


why not ???????????? :sick: :tears:

[Gus]

OK .... I made a mistake.

Tried to teach a move, colloquially known as the 'Mess Your Hair' move ... a Viktor and Lydia special. Without going into boring details, the guys behind the woman, arms holding woman's hands taking them over her head and down to ladies waist.

I realised that there would be an opportunity for guys to ‘cop a feel’ but reckoned that most women would instinctively keep the guys hands away from their chest ... Right?:) ... WRONG.:(

What I hadn’t reckoned on was not so much the boob groping but the guys getting VERY close from behind. Had at least two ladies comment on some ‘inappropriate behaviour so far (but refuse to point out the offending parties) ... and god knows how many others have complaints but don’t want to make a fuss.:tears:

Got to admit that its really put me off teaching ANY close moves from stage. This was quite a mild one ... but without having a 5 minute rant and talking to the masses like naughty school kids ... what do you do?

[spindr]

Originally posted by Gus
Got to admit that its really put me off teaching ANY close moves from stage. This was quite a mild one ... but without having a 5 minute rant and talking to the masses like naughty school kids ... what do you do?

Ok, so I guess the very first thing that comes to mind is were the ladies surprised by the routine? Did you demo the whole routine first? I could imagine some ladies might drop out if they knew the routine included a UCP move, it's harder for them to avoid if they're already in the class.

When you taught the move, did you teach it as a close move with a partner who's comfortable with you being in their space? Or did you teach it with a largish gap between you -- and then show at the end that it can be done much more closely, and give that as an option if both partners are comfortable?
Hopefully, the guys'll take their cue from how you dance it on-stage -- at least it might reduce the amount of time that could be "abused".

SpinDr.

[jivecat]

Originally posted by Gus
What I hadn’t reckoned on was not so much the boob groping but the guys getting VERY close from behind. Had at least two ladies comment on some ‘inappropriate behaviour so far (but refuse to point out the offending parties) ... and god knows how many others have complaints but don’t want to make a fuss.:tears:

[/B]

Generally I don't get very bothered by sleaziness & perviness but I do find that any moves where I have my back to the man make me rather nervous because I am often pulled off balance with predictably embarrassing results. As I understand it the lady should be in balance, & thus in control of her own movements at all times except in dips and drops. Is this right? If, as I turn backwards towards the man, he pulls too hard I haven't much control over the distance between him and me. This bugs me! However, I don't think that most guys do it on purpose to be sleazy, they are just not aware of where their partner's centre of gravity is. Would this explain the unfortunate incidents at your class?

[Gus]

Originally posted by jivecat
However, I don't think that most guys do it on purpose to be sleazy, they are just not aware of where their partner's centre of gravity is. Would this explain the unfortunate incidents at your class?

Oh ... dont get me wrong ... the VAST majority of guys kept the 'unvisible barrier' between themselves and the ladies ... just a couple of perverts who decided to press their groin into the womans backside:angry: If I manage to find out who it was there will be a short and very focused chat which make them VERY aware of the consequences of their actions if they do it again.

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Gus
... what do you do? Sounds to me like you need to be quite specific about teaching the DON'TS of any close move, in an ideal world it shouldn't be necessary of course.

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Sounds to me like you need to be quite specific about teaching the DON'TS of any close move, in an ideal world it shouldn't be necessary of course.

Trouble is, the groin-rubbers and boob-gropers of this world will invariably ignore such "don'ts".

The cultural change we need is for the ladies to feel that it's ok to not tolerate unwanted sexual behaviour on the dancefloor.

So as well as telling the guys what not to do, the guy or gal on the stage should also give the girls licence to clearly reject such behaviour if it happens.

Chris

[Bill]

Originally posted by ChrisA
The cultural change we need is for the ladies to feel that it's ok to not tolerate unwanted sexual behaviour on the dancefloor.


Chris

absolutely.................. mentioned this to the beginners last night when I was taxi-ing and that any unwanted attention is not acceptable and to help the men find their hip rather than any othe rpart of their anatomy.

However, I did accidentally manage to brush - rather than grope - one of my partner's breast during freestyle. Thankfully she knows me well and it was obviously an accident. :blush: but I think most women can tell the difference between an accident and a grope.

[Jon]

Had my first dance with a woman who I'd say was sleezy last night. It was the way she was trying to get close which I wasn't leading and then she said can I get my leg over! I said no in the nicest way I could, then spent the rest of the dance having to explain to her why I would not do those moves with her. I could tell she wasn't too happy and the fact that I limited myself to dancing beginner moves with her after that I'm hoping will mean she won't ask me to dance again.

I now appreciate what the ladies must go through with some guys, at least I was able to lead the moves and control how close she came.

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by Jon
then she said can I get my leg over! I said no in the nicest way I could,

Is this a first? A man with complete restraint? She wasn't sitting on a plate at the time then? :rofl: :rofl:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Bardsey
Is this a first? A man with complete restraint? She wasn't sitting on a plate at the time then? :rofl: :rofl:

I'm sure if we were tested there are few of us who would have restraint............ we just need volunteers to test our resolve :D :innocent:

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by Bill
I'm sure if we were tested there are few of us who would have restraint............ we just need volunteers to test our resolve :D :innocent:

Sir, sir, please sir, pick me :rofl: :rofl: :whistle:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Bardsey
Is this a first? A man with complete restraint? I hope not. After a complete stranger, on our first dance, lead my hands onto her breasts, I subsequently made it all beginnerish and distant to avoid any repetition.

And I don't think that's an invitation to those who are not complete strangers! :blush: Yes, this sort of thing can be done in fun, it would depend on the moment, the mood, the song. I can't think of many partners where it wouldn't lead to embarrassment though. :blush:

The "leg over" suggestion is a bit different though, surely it would mostly be said (by a woman) in jest? And there are plenty of legitimate moves like this.

Greg

[spindr]

Well, Sheepman and Jon, I hope that continuing the public information aspect of the forum, that you'll publish the names of the venues, so that the easily offended amongst us men can (ahem) "avoid" them :)

SpinDr
(I can resist anything, except temptation)

[Andy McGregor]

There is a move where the man places your hands on his chest/bosom and sort of jiggles. And always seems to be done just before changing shirt :sick:

[Dan Hudson]

Originally posted by Jon
Had my first dance with a woman who I'd say was sleezy last night. It was the way she was trying to get close which I wasn't leading and then she said can I get my leg over! I said no in the nicest way I could,



I can't believe it.. after all that training my first pupil has failed at the first hurdle, Jon, when will you learn these opportunities done come up that often!!:whistle: :rofl: :wink:

I am disappointed in you :really: :rofl:

[spindr]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There is a move where the man places your hands on his chest/bosom and sort of jiggles. And always seems to be done just before changing shirtHiya Andy,

Not sure the ladies really love the hands on the chest move -- I've known one or two roll their eyes when I've led it -- I tend to half-lead it now, so that they start to do the "oh, no, not that one again" and then realise that they can actually stop themselves in time, without using their hands. Some of them still find the need to reach out though :) And, I'm fairly sure someone was trying to "tune the light programme in" using my "chests" on Saturday night.

SpinDr.

P.S. Andy, if you want do get a reaction try doing a hip roll when you're stood in front of the lady -- some of them definitely want to touch what they can't afford :)

[ElaineB]

I was 'groped' (hand in my crotch!) and an attempt to kiss me was made whilst at Hipsters late last year - I was so shocked that I didn't know what to do........except walk off at the end of the dance!

The next time we met though, (in a lesson), I squared up to the guy and told him that if he attempted to touch me again that I would flatten him!

Funny though, he has never asked me to dance since!

Elaine (from Bristol)

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by ElaineB
The next time we met though, (in a lesson), I squared up to the guy and told him that if he attempted to touch me again that I would flatten him!

I can't think of a better way of dealing with the likes of him...

... with the possible exception of flattening at the time :D :D

Nice to meet you recently, BTW.

Chris :flower:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by spindr
Not sure the lady's really love the hands on the chest move -- I've known one or two roll their eyes when I've led it -- I tend to half-lead it now, so that they start to do the "oh, no, not that one again" and then realise that they can actually stop themselves in time, without using their hands. Some of them still find the need to reach out though :) And, I'm fairly sure someone was trying to "tune the light programme in" using my "chests" on Saturday night.


I don't really do that move much any more, I've had so many women say they don't like it. I thought it was because my pecs don't measure up:tears:


Originally posted by spindr
P.S. Andy, if you want do get a reaction try doing a hip roll when you're stood in front of the lady -- some of them definitely want to touch what they can't afford :)

I always leave my car keys in by dancing bag. But it doesn't always stop a girl from rummaging for them:blush:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by spindr
I tend to half-lead it now, so that they start to do the "oh, no, not that one again" and then realise that they can actually stop themselves in time, without using their hands.

Bugger, you could've told me that on Saturday :wink: :rofl:

[Bill]

Originally posted by ElaineB
I was 'groped' (hand in my crotch!) and an attempt to kiss me was made whilst at Hipsters late last year - I was so shocked that I didn't know what to do........except walk off at the end of the dance!

The next time we met though, (in a lesson), I squared up to the guy and told him that if he attempted to touch me again that I would flatten him!

Funny though, he has never asked me to dance since!

Elaine (from Bristol)


Good for you..........if only more women would take the same stand perhaps we'd get rid of the likes of him. Pity you didn't tell one of the organisers who might have then also have had a word with him.
:rolleyes:

[Bill]

Originally posted by spindr
Hiya Andy,

Not sure the ladies really love the hands on the chest move -- I've known one or two roll their eyes when I've led it -- I tend to half-lead it now

Think the only person I've ever seen who can do this with real style is Viktor. I used to do it occasionally but it neither looks or feels the same as when he does any 'chest' move :sick: :tears: :D

[ElaineB]

Hi Bill,

When I fist went to Hipsters, I didn't really know 'who was who', but if I see him again, I will tell the organisers.

Chris!!! Lovely to hear from you!

I'll be at Hipster tonight, so hope to see you there! :)


Elaine

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by ElaineB
I'll be at Hipsters tonight, so hope to see you there! :)


Me too !! (Hoping to trip you guys up on the dance floor :devil: )

Don't forget it's at Acton again this week.

Chris

[ElaineB]

Chris,

You wouldn't..........:D and I thought you were a Gent!! Anyway, someone attempted to nobble me on Saturday - still have the bruising and lack of nail polish on toes to prove it!

Thanks for reminding me re Acton - it's a long way to go to the wrong venue!!


Elaine

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by ElaineB
You wouldn't..........:D and I thought you were a Gent!!
Nah, 'course not...

Though you're looking pretty good... :tears:

[ElaineB]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Nah, 'course not...

Though you're looking pretty good... :tears:

And you and Jayne aren't??? I have been soooo impressed by the standard of the dancers in London - probably won't compete at Hammersmith, but may come to watch and learn!

Elaine:)

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gus
OK .... I made a mistake.

Tried to teach a move, colloquially known as the 'Mess Your Hair' move ... a Viktor and Lydia special. Without going into boring details, the guys behind the woman, arms holding woman's hands taking them over her head and down to ladies waist.

I realised that there would be an opportunity for guys to ‘cop a feel’ but reckoned that most women would instinctively keep the guys hands away from their chest ... Right?:) ... WRONG.:(

What I hadn’t reckoned on was not so much the boob groping but the guys getting VERY close from behind. Had at least two ladies comment on some ‘inappropriate behaviour so far (but refuse to point out the offending parties) ... and god knows how many others have complaints but don’t want to make a fuss.:tears:

Got to admit that its really put me off teaching ANY close moves from stage. This was quite a mild one ... but without having a 5 minute rant and talking to the masses like naughty school kids ... what do you do?
Michaela taught this move at a St. Neots Freestyle night. I carefully negotiated a generous bosom and got down to her waist, whereupon partner decided that she would drop down too, (definitely not as taught) and I got a double handful. I stood there frozen in panic, not knowing how to react, but she just smiled and moved on, as though that was what she came for.

I can imagine a different woman not realising that she had got it wrong and reacting much differently. Scary?

Michaela usually goes through all of the probable disasters and "accidents" and warns about them, but you cannot predict everything. She teaches the odd womans "accident" in retaliation too. I have never seen one used, or needing to be used.

[LilyB]

Originally posted by ElaineB
. . . probably won't compete at Hammersmith, but may come to watch and learn!

Elaine:) What - and waste all that excellent coaching we foisted on you three weeks ago??!!! :angry:

LilyB

[ElaineB]

Hi Lily!

No, it won't be wasted!!! We will be competing elsewhere this year - honest!!

And yes, the coaching was excellent!!
:)

Someone told me that you are competing with Viktor at Blackpool, is this correct? If so, I can't wait!


Elaine

[Jon]

Originally posted by Dan Hudson
I can't believe it.. after all that training my first pupil has failed at the first hurdle, Jon, when will you learn these opportunities done come up that often!!:whistle: :rofl: :wink:

I am disappointed in you :really: :rofl:

Dan, well if she'd been 20 years younger then that training would have been put to good use :wink: