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Sparkles
9th-July-2006, 11:10 PM
So, what do you think is the biggest influence on the way modern jive progresses in the UK... and where to do you think this influence will lead us next...?

straycat
9th-July-2006, 11:22 PM
That's a really tough one, and I was torn between the teachers and the DJ / music, but in my experience, the venues with the best music have the best dancers.

In this case, by 'best', I mean varied, interesting, challenging music, as opposed to lots of 'thuds' (eg Titanic theme remix)

DavidB
9th-July-2006, 11:55 PM
I voted for the teachers.

Good music doesn't create good dancers. It just gives them something to dance to.

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
9th-July-2006, 11:59 PM
I voted for the teachers.

Good music doesn't create good dancers. It just gives them something to dance to.
:yeah: It also helps to have incredibly talented dancers to watch/dance with during a freestyle, they show you that with a bit of practice and commitment you can soon be dancing as well as them, that of course can also be said for teachers-maybe more so.

bigdjiver
10th-July-2006, 12:00 AM
Possibly it is the weekenders. (I have never been on one). There the keenest meet, and have time to exchange views and learn from one another.

Lynn
10th-July-2006, 12:03 AM
I voted for the teachers.

Good music doesn't create good dancers. It just gives them something to dance to.:yeah: You can't play all the varied 'interesting' music to a room full of dancers who have never been shown how to dance to it. Some may be able to just naturally adjust their dancing but many will feel a bit lost.

There is also no point in giving people new techniques and new ways of interpreting music then not giving them a varied diet of music to dance to.

So both. Perhaps the music comes first - people hear the music and think 'I want to learn how to dance to that sort of music' then seek out classes to develop their dancing in that direction. (That's how it works for me anyway.)


Possibly it is the weekenders. (I have never been on one). There the keenest meet, and have time to exchange views and learn from one another. Weekenders also give space for new styles and music to be introduced to a wider audience than would be possible at a local venue.

TheTramp
10th-July-2006, 12:07 AM
Ah. But if the music is there, then there will (hopefully) be good dancers there dancing to it....

I certainly learnt a lot more watching the dancers in London dance than I ever did at a class. I think that for me, classes got me started, then watching, copying and experimenting took me the rest of the way.

WittyBird
10th-July-2006, 12:55 AM
I certainly learnt a lot more watching the dancers in London dance than I ever did at a class.

:yeah: I'm much more of a visual person than anything else, I would much rather watch. I have learnt so much from certain ladies that I can't name names (who've taken time out to show me and are always very kind) than I ever would in a class. I have also learnt so much from the fabulous leads we have here (I'm not naming names, but you know who). Not only have these fabulous people been patient, but they've danced with me since I was a beginner and persevered and still surprising ask me to dance now :eek:

So I don't think it's down to teachers or the music, I think it's down to your surroundings and the company you keep :D The music and other things to me come later :yum:

I have great :respect: for all those that have helped me on my way. :drool:

drathzel
10th-July-2006, 01:08 AM
I picked teachers, but i also think that music and other dancers can be a big influence!

Music can inspire you, Good dancers can encourage you to try harder and learn move and improve your dancing. Teachers aid this.

I hope as a teacher and a dancer that i can inspire people to progress the way that my teachers and favorite dancers did with me:hug:

straycat
10th-July-2006, 08:36 AM
Good music doesn't create good dancers.
Tell that to Frankie Manning :cool:

bigdjiver
10th-July-2006, 08:48 AM
So, what do you think is the biggest influence on the way modern jive progresses in the UK... I said possibly weekenders - and I was thinking the whole weekender scene. Venue managers, crew, DJ's, Teachers, and business people all learning from each other and forming friendships and alliances.
Some how the must communicate, and the Internet and the mobile phone play a substantial part in that, with this forum being a substantial influence.


...progresses...I think evolves might be a more appropriate word.


...and where to do you think this influence will lead us next...?Perhaps to "we are not hotshots, we are just better dancers who do not like risking injury and will not accept low standards", "we are not a clique, we are just a group of friends", "Lessons should be more about raising standards.","WCTBJ is the real dance, MJ is just a way in."

The fossil record is full of extinct species that evolved to become other extinct species. In the meantime I learn when I can, and treasure what we have now.

WCTBJ = West Coast Tango Blues Jive.(have you been away?)

Cruella
10th-July-2006, 08:58 AM
Ah. But if the music is there, then there will (hopefully) be good dancers there dancing to it....

I certainly learnt a lot more watching the dancers in London dance than I ever did at a class. I think that for me, classes got me started, then watching, copying and experimenting took me the rest of the way.
:yeah: Much as i hate ever agreeing with Trampy.:rolleyes: Good music attracts good dancers, I personally learn more by dancing with great leads (and followers) than i do in any lesson.

ducasi
10th-July-2006, 09:23 AM
The question is what influences the progress of MJ and where whatever these influences are will take the dance next... Music influences us and makes us better dancers, but it can't change the way we dance unless the music itself changes, and for that to happen there has to be something influencing it.

More than that... No matter how much (e.g.) tango music is played, unless dancers have got or been taught some tango style or moves, the dance won't change significantly.

I think the key influences are from dancers and especially teachers who bring aspects of other dances back to MJ.

As for what's next? How about a more funky "street" style brought to us by a new generation of dancers to whom the current music and style is boring?

Just a thought... :)

straycat
10th-July-2006, 09:46 AM
The question is what influences the progress of MJ and where whatever these influences are will take the dance next... Music influences us and makes us better dancers, but it can't change the way we dance unless the music itself changes, and for that to happen there has to be something influencing it.

More than that... No matter how much (e.g.) tango music is played, unless dancers have got or been taught some tango style or moves, the dance won't change significantly.

I don't agree. People who interpret music to any degree will generally change their styles significantly when a different style is played. For an overstated example, you're not going to look the same dancing to a slow smooth blues number as you will dancing to a hip-hop track.

Of course playing tango music isn't going to turn anyone into a tango dancer without lessons (a lot of lessons) - but what will happen is that people will evolve what they do to suit their interpretation of the tango music. It may or may not look anything like tango, but it'll be different, and it'll continue to develop the more people dance to it. This is how dance forms evolve.

I'm not saying that teachers don't matter - far from it - they're crucial for most of us. But you can still have dance without teachers. Much harder to have it without any form of music.
------
Stray:cool:

DavidB
10th-July-2006, 10:59 AM
I don't agree. People who interpret music to any degree will generally change their styles significantly when a different style is played. For an overstated example, you're not going to look the same dancing to a slow smooth blues number as you will dancing to a hip-hop track.Sorry - I disagree. Of all the different ways people interpret music in Modern Jive, characterisation is the weakest. Too many people do look the same dancing to blues and hip-hop.

Watch a video of any recent competition final with the sound turned down. Can you tell what the music is (other than slow or fast)? But if you covered up the top of the screen to hide the faces, you could still name almost all the couples.
(I'm only picking on competitors because it is easy to get videos. Social dancers are no different)

The style that people add to the dance is still based on the individual, and not the music.

straycat
10th-July-2006, 11:27 AM
Sorry - I disagree. Of all the different ways people interpret music in Modern Jive, characterisation is the weakest. Too many people do look the same dancing to blues and hip-hop.

Too many? Maybe. I certainly don't, and in venues where you get a continual diet of different music, you get that variety. Sure - if you stick on a couple of 'different' tracks for people who're used to thuds, they'll continue as if they were dancing to thuds - I agree with you there. Acclimitise people to a greater variety of music, and they will start varying their style accordingly, no question.



Watch a video of any recent competition final with the sound turned down. Can you tell what the music is (other than slow or fast)? But if you covered up the top of the screen to hide the faces, you could still name almost all the couples.
(I'm only picking on competitors because it is easy to get videos. Social dancers are no different)

I can't argue this one, as it's been a good couple of years since I've seen any of the comps - and the last few I saw had pretty unadventurous music (lots of thuds)



The style that people add to the dance is still based on the individual, and not the music.
Sometimes. And sometimes it's a combination of the individual and the music. With anyone who truly listens to and interprets music, that's what you'll get. It's usually an acquired skill though, and to acquire it, you need the correct exposure, hence the venues with the consistently good music. I'm simply saying what I've observed at such (admittedly less common) venues.

Stray

Magic Hans
10th-July-2006, 11:36 AM
...

The style that people add to the dance is still based on the individual, and not the music.

Very much agree with this.

Any certainly for the vast majority of MJers (90%+ maybe even up to 99%), their dancing style may well change little if at all.

However, it's that 1-2% that are plugged into their creativity that make the difference. These precious few will take risks every once in a while, extending their envelope .... and sometime c*cking up!!!!

But, in taking those risks, and furthering their own horizons, they will, inevitably blaze a trail for some to follow .... eventually (long time) expanding the main stream.

In .... of course ... my humbles of opinions!

:flower: :flower:

!an

David Franklin
10th-July-2006, 11:46 AM
Too many? Maybe. I certainly don't, and in venues where you get a continual diet of different music, you get that variety. I would beg to disagree. There really are vanishingly few dancers who signficantly change their dance style depending on the music genre (though the music tempo does affect things a bit). There are a lot more dancers who think they change their style, and it may even feel very different if you were dancing with them. But visually, there's very little variation.


Sure - if you stick on a couple of 'different' tracks for people who're used to thuds, they'll continue as if they were dancing to thuds - I agree with you there. Sorry, but we really aren't talking about people who only know how to dance to what you call "thud" music.

DavidB is talking about being able to tell the kind of music someone is dancing to by watching a video with the sound down. To be honest, I think that's a very high bar - I certainly don't think the top WCS pros manage it anywhere near consistantly. They do, however, get closer than almost anyone in MJ.

straycat
10th-July-2006, 01:42 PM
DavidB is talking about being able to tell the kind of music someone is dancing to by watching a video with the sound down.

True enough, and didn't say otherwise, but the suggestion was (and sorry if I'm mistaken about this) that the style of music doesn't alter people's dance in any significant way. I also need to go back to one of Mr B's ealier comments:



Good music doesn't create good dancers. It just gives them something to dance to.

Technically, this is true. You can't turn someone into a great dancer purely by playing great music at them. If they have the potential to be great dancers though, you're far more likely to bring that out by playing music that challenges and inspires them, than the more generic stuff.

Dance is music. Music is dance. There are cultures which use the same word for each concept, which says a lot. Look at the way some of the dances evolved - Lindy essentially came about with a bunch of people messing around to a new, developing form of music - it brought in a lot of outside influences, but was very much shaped by the music. Tango is another that followed a smiliar route. Different styles of swing music, different types of tango music shape different styles of each dance. You see similar variations with salsa - these stylistic differences are very often driven by the music, and sometimes the music is similarly changed by the dance - by the way musicians see people respond to what they play.

To digress for a moment, has anyone else been lucky enough to dance to live music that was being improvised to fit your dancing? Only done it once, but it was an extraordinary and wonderful feeling.

Anyway. Back to the longwinded ramble. We're all on a dancing journey of one sort or another. Mine started the very first time I danced, which was to a Blues-Bros style band, and all I could think to do was my fencing moves, in time to the music. Fast forward to the early days of Ceroc, focussing on remembering moves, leading, and not traumatising my partner - no musicality, no interpretation, just learning to be comfortable with the early aspects. On to the concepts of musicality and improvisation outside of 'set' moves - the first feelings were of
blind "I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!!!" panic, which gradually improved and turned more and more into enjoyment, and my comfort zone began to encompass it all.

Then. After that, it was paying attention to more, different dance styles, to the music, absorbing things I liked the look of, imitating them (not always consciously, but when the moment felt right), not well, but still learning, still growing. Now, I'm learning various other dances, trying to keep each of them separate in terms of style and moves (mainly so I can learn them more clearly) - and MJ has turned into the big melting pot into which everything gets thrown.

We've been complimented on:
Our tango. (before I ever tried lessons)
Our jive.
Our cha-cha (can't do cha-cha)
Our 'techno-Ceroc' (whatever that is)
Our Michael Jackson 'choreography' (just messing around to Billie Jean)

And on each occasion, all we were doing was messing around with MJ, enjoying the music, and doing what it suggested to us.

If I never had another dance lesson, I'd still keep dancing and loving it - I wouldn't improve nearly as much, but I would still keep improving slowly, keep adapting, keep changing. If I never heard another good piece of music, I'd have to stop.

I'll follow a great teacher to the ends of the earth. But I'll follow a great DJ even further. (And a great partner further still)

El Salsero Gringo
10th-July-2006, 01:56 PM
I would beg to disagree. There really are vanishingly few dancers who signficantly change their dance style depending on the music genre (though the music tempo does affect things a bit). There are a lot more dancers who think they change their style, and it may even feel very different if you were dancing with them. But visually, there's very little variation.I agree.
Dance is music. Music is dance. There are cultures which use the same word for each concept, which says a lot.What it says is that those cultures haven't developed either concept to any extent. Like the way Arabic doesn't have fifty different words for snow.

David Bailey
10th-July-2006, 02:22 PM
I'm not even sure if there is a single Modern Jive scene - I think it's now split up into several different scenes, both geographically and culturally, which share some of the same (Ceroc-based) heritage.

And there's also:

The "teaching scene" - most heavily influenced by Ceroc guidelines plus a few teaching pioneers I think).
The "freestyle / social dance" scene - which I'd argue is heavily weekender- and music-influenced.
The "competition scene" - mainly influenced by, err, competitions I reckon.


Different scenes are developing in different ways.

It's like the English language - at the moment we can all communicate, but some of us have definite accents, so we may have to speak more slowly to "foreigners" than "locals". In time, the gaps may grow so wide that they're different languages (in the same way Spanish and Italian are different). Or, they may converge again - as with UK and American English.

So in ten years' time, we may be discussing "What is N.I. Style?" :devil:

straycat
10th-July-2006, 02:33 PM
So in ten years' time, we may be discussing "What is N.I. Style?" :devil:

Heh :)
For that matter, when will Modern Jive cease to be modern, and be considered old-fashioned, dated and 'quaint'?

bigdjiver
10th-July-2006, 02:45 PM
...I'll follow a great teacher to the ends of the earth. But I'll follow a great DJ even further. (And a great partner further still):devil: Why are they running away ?


/:devil:


:flower: sorry, I just had to do it .. its a weakness ...


Heh
For that matter, when will Modern Jive cease to be modern, and be considered old-fashioned, dated and 'quaint'?I think I am about ready to claim that I do Retro-Jive. (RJ)

David Bailey
10th-July-2006, 03:19 PM
Heh :)
For that matter, when will Modern Jive cease to be modern, and be considered old-fashioned, dated and 'quaint'?
God knows - look at New Labour...

"Modern Jive" is a silly name - but to paraphrase Winston Chuchill, it's the worst name except all the other names that have been tried from time to time.

straycat
10th-July-2006, 03:23 PM
God knows - look at New Labour...

At least - whatever else one might want to call them, they'll never be thought of as 'quaint' :angry:

straycat
10th-July-2006, 03:24 PM
:devil: Why are they running away ?



They love to play hard-to-get. Lovable scamps that they are...:whistle:

Lynn
10th-July-2006, 03:45 PM
It's like the English language - at the moment we can all communicate, but some of us have definite accents, so we may have to speak more slowly to "foreigners" than "locals". In time, the gaps may grow so wide that they're different languages (in the same way Spanish and Italian are different). Or, they may converge again - as with UK and American English. Like the language and dialects analogy.

So in ten years' time, we may be discussing "What is N.I. Style?" :devil:Yes, give us a few years (though with the current influences it may develop into a sub branch of Scottish style...)

mikeyr
10th-July-2006, 04:46 PM
DavidB is talking about being able to tell the kind of music someone is dancing to by watching a video with the sound down. To be honest, I think that's a very high bar - I certainly don't think the top WCS pros manage it anywhere near consistantly. They do, however, get closer than almost anyone in MJ.


From the competitors point of view. The below is from the rules of a national uk Modern jive championship. So if the music is swing and you do too much swing interpretation. you will be marked down

"70% of dancing must be recognisable as Modern Jive".

On the social scene, how many people ever video their dancing and watch it. Again the vast majority of punters in this game are in it for a fun social eve out.

It is those people who see themselves as dancers first and foremost with MJ as the vehicle for their creativity, that will push the bounds and that, over time will filter through to the masses.

Many teachers are competent dancers, a few (you know who they are ) are inspirational. The same can be said for the purveyors of the playlists (DJ's to you) and again you know who they are. And lets face it many new exciting ideas in our little world will never make it to the mainstream, because the mainstream cant handle it.

You need to accept there has to be an "Elitist" group (and I use the word advisedly), self styled or otherwise who are not afraid to explore their creativity.

So in summary (excuse the socio political ramble above) I favour the inspirational Dancer/DJ combination as the way forward, and I take this oppurtunity to say thankyou for being my inspiration:cool:

straycat
10th-July-2006, 04:56 PM
...
...
So in summary (excuse the socio political ramble above) I favour the inspirational Dancer/DJ combination as the way forward, and I take this oppurtunity to say thankyou for being my inspiration:cool:
Bingo. :yeah: :clap:

DavidB
10th-July-2006, 04:59 PM
Modern Jive is about 25 years old.

For roughly the first 20 years it hardly changed. There was still a wide variety of music being played - pop, dance, swing, Rock'n'Roll, Rhythm and Blues, etc. But the moves/style etc never changed (other than about 4 very unique couples.)

Then Nigel & Nina started teaching musicality to Modern Jivers.

Then people started dancing differently.

straycat
10th-July-2006, 05:24 PM
Modern Jive is about 25 years old.

For roughly the first 20 years it hardly changed. There was still a wide variety of music being played - pop, dance, swing, Rock'n'Roll, Rhythm and Blues, etc. But the moves/style etc never changed (other than about 4 very unique couples.)

Then Nigel & Nina started teaching musicality to Modern Jivers.

Then people started dancing differently.
I'm not completely sure I see your point, but...

It's now 2006. I think I started around 1992 / 1993, hard to be certain. Certainly the scene was tiny back then - there was only one south coast Ceroc venue, and I think I'd be right in saying the whole thing was beginning to take off around then (Leroc was going nicely in Bristol, and London had a few venues, but I'm not sure where else).

I first saw N&N dancing in 1997, and yes that was the most inspirational piece of MJ I'd yet seen. Went to Beach Boogie for the first time in 1998, and had my first taste of proper musicality lessons with them - which was where the seed was planted, which is pretty well all it took. It was also then that I started being more fussy with music.

So - did they kick start the whole MJ musicality thing on their own? I don't know enough about the other good dancers of the time to comment too much, but they were certainly leading figures. It almost certainly would have happened anyway - the MJ scene was growing at a huge rate back then - an influx of new blood brings new ideas, new styles, new needs...

Getting nostalgic now.:tears:

Minnie M
10th-July-2006, 05:34 PM
It's now 2006. I think I started around 1992 / 1993, hard to be certain. Certainly the scene was tiny back then - there was only one south coast Ceroc venue............
:confused: Where on the south coast ???

I live in Brighton, and we started about that time with Graham LeClerk (Mikey's teacher as well as Oz Martin, TiggTours, Boozy Girl and me - all started in the early 90's)

Also, that time there were quite a few Ceroc venues in Portsmouth & Southampton (now called Mo'Jive)

So it was, in fact quite a biggish scene (in caparison of course)

The very first UK Jive competition I think was in 1993, a Brighton couple came second :clap:

N & N were definitely the biggest influence to the changing style, however we must also give credit to Amir and a little bit to the lindy & salsa scene. Lots of MJ dancers tried these styles and came back, but this time with a bit of their moves, and styling (eg Viktor)

DavidB
10th-July-2006, 05:48 PM
I'm not completely sure I see your point, but...
{snip}
So - did they kick start the whole MJ musicality thing on their own?
You do see my point.


It almost certainly would have happened anyway - the MJ scene was growing at a huge rate back then - an influx of new blood brings new ideas, new styles, new needs...But it never did happen when dancers were just left to their own devices. MJ had grown and shrunk several times by then, and all that had developed was individual style from a handful of natural dancers.

A real change only happened when a teacher taught a concept that didn't rely on individual dance ability.

You might get inspiration from other dancers, but you need knowledge to progress.

Magic Hans
10th-July-2006, 05:54 PM
Ok .... firstly my disclaimer.

I've been around modern jive for about 20 years less than it has been around (say around 5 years)

All I can comment on in the MJ scene is from my fairly mediocre exposure to it .... which others with more exposure, are free to agree with or disagree with (agreeably pleeease!!!)

What I notice, is that 99% of the 1 yr+ dancers at my venues dance what I would call 'normal' MJ or a 'normal' lively, type style.

At competition events and weekenders, I see people dancing differently, (hip hop and street dance in particular) this gives me the encouragement to copy (or model) them to some degree, and then incorporate that into my own styling.

I, personally, also draw dance 'behaviour' (if you like) from a) other dance types that I have been exposed to (latin jive, salsa, tango, arg tango, morris, african, folk, free expression, etc) and b) my creative stage/improvisation experience.

Does dance styling have any correlation with language development and evolution? Personally I feel that it does.

Any whenever a new type of moving is tried out, on the extremities of the MJ scene (eg lead ... or partner hijacking) ... it, at the very least, has an opportunity to eventually filter into the mainstream.

However, it is generally the case that the majority (50%+ at a guess!) will be quite happy to continue doing there bit [same 100 or so moves], and simply enjoy the social interraction.

Does my styling differ dramatically depending on the mood of the music? Simply said, I do not know. All I know is that I can feel very different, and that my mood changes from arrogant and proud (latin, especially tango type) to fun and playful (pop and disco-ey) to romantic and downright soppy (more bluesy like)!! .... and it's all an act .... but a very heartfelt one.

Having said all that, I still can only dance with emotions as I feel them ... ie my own individuality, and so, in that respect, I am by definition limited in the the styling that I am capable of.

.... errrrrr ..... end of rant I think!!!

:D :D :D :D :D

Freya
10th-July-2006, 06:04 PM
Like the language and dialects analogy.
Yes, give us a few years (though with the current influences it may develop into a sub branch of Scottish style...)

We Have a Style? :confused: :sick:

Lory
10th-July-2006, 06:15 PM
In the past year I've taken dance lessons outside MJ and they've probably had a knock on affect and influenced the overall style of my MJ, although I can't be sure, as I have no video evidence of before or after but it's my aim, (and the thing that's giving me the most challenge and pleasure at the moment) to be able to alter my style completely to suit different styles of music. e.g. Tango, WCS, Latin and Ballroom

The question now is, at what point does my MJ still remain MJ but with a 'hint (style to suit) of' *?*?*? or would it be that i'm just doing a 'sloppy' version of the real thing :confused:

Sparkles
10th-July-2006, 06:30 PM
A real change only happened when a teacher taught a concept that didn't rely on individual dance ability.

What inspired Nigel and Nina to teach this concept and how did they form it themselves... does anyone know?

Lynn
10th-July-2006, 06:34 PM
We Have a Style? :confused: :sick:Sorry, that sort of relates back to old threads in the past and of course the fact that Drathzel learnt to dance there.

About different styles, for me at least its not about being exposed to different styles and that then changing my dancing, its about being exposed to different styles and being drawn towards those that 'fit' with my own personal preferred style. I could go to the best hip hop/lindy/salsa classes and work hard at learning those dances, but I'm not really going to dance them from the heart the way I hope to do one day with (for example) tango. I've been trying different styles over the past couple of years and there are several I would love to explore but because they appeal to me, not because they are the 'latest' trend in MJ.

And that is going to be different for others, so MJ will possibly 'evolve' in directions where there are enough people within MJ to give a critical mass for new styles a chance to grow and develop. And that means venues where the relevant music is played, classes where the new styles are taught and enough people to make both financially viable over time.

El Salsero Gringo
10th-July-2006, 06:36 PM
God knows - look at New Labour...

"Modern Jive" is a silly name -.No sillier than, for instance, the Modernist movement in art, or Nouvelle Cuisine, or New Age music, or ...
Modern Jive is about 25 years old.

For roughly the first 20 years it hardly changed.No, I don't believe that. The Ceroc that I started to learn six years ago is hugely different in style from the video clips of James Cronin teaching, a few years previous to that.

Minnie M
10th-July-2006, 06:38 PM
What inspired Nigel and Nina to teach this concept and how did they form it themselves... does anyone know?
Nigel got the idea from a class he attended in Herrange given by Lennart (the organiser) explaining music breaks etc., and how as dancers we can use this, it also helped as Nigel is also a musician.

straycat
10th-July-2006, 06:42 PM
:confused: Where on the south coast ???

I live in Brighton, and we started about that time with Graham LeClerk (Mikey's teacher as well as Oz Martin, TiggTours, Boozy Girl and me - all started in the early 90's)

Also, that time there were quite a few Ceroc venues in Portsmouth & Southampton (now called Mo'Jive)

When I began, there was one Southampton Ceroc venue, at one of the hotels (think it was the Southampton Park). That venue had been going less than a year. I wasn't aware of any Portsmouth ones, though there may have been one. I forgot about Brighton :blush: - it would likely have had one or more.

Within a year of my beginning, they lost that venue, and moved to the BTC, changing the night, and losing a fair few customers for a while. Things then began to pick up again, more venues started up, including the Eastleigh Railway club (later to move to Pirelli's, I believe) - and at some point around then, the Mo'Jive change kicked in. By the time I left the area, there were loads of venues, run by several organisations.

Stray
**Disclaimer - this is all from the slightly dubious annals of my memory - ie - pprobably not 100% accurate.

Sparkles
10th-July-2006, 06:42 PM
Nigel got the idea from a class he attended in Herrange given by Lennart (the organiser) explaining music breaks etc., and how as dancers we can use this, it also helped as Nigel is also a musician.

OK, so did Lennart make the link between musical structure and dancing, or did Nigel?
(you've got me curious now)

straycat
10th-July-2006, 06:50 PM
You do see my point.


Oh good :grin:



But it never did happen when dancers were just left to their own devices. MJ had grown and shrunk several times by then, and all that had developed was individual style from a handful of natural dancers.

A real change only happened when a teacher taught a concept that didn't rely on individual dance ability.


But happen it did. If it hadn't been N&N, it would have come from elsewhere, other people, other dancers - someone or some groups would have done this. Or MJ would quietly have declined, I believe - without progress, without evolution, that's generally what happens.



You might get inspiration from other dancers, but you need knowledge to progress.
Actually, I know a few dancers with knowledge, who aren't progressing at all. It's the ones with that drive, or talent, or willingness to take the risk... they're the ones who progress, and they get the knowledge along the way, anyway they can.

David Bailey
10th-July-2006, 07:03 PM
We Have a Style? :confused: :sick:
Oooh, that sounds like a thread idea to me... :innocent:

Freya
10th-July-2006, 07:20 PM
Oooh, that sounds like a thread idea to me... :innocent:

Oh Dear What have I done!?!?! :sick:

Ok deciding to vote I decided that there was no one thing that influences MJ! Typical Sit on the fence kinda answer I know But I Think it's a combination of the music, the teachers, and the dancers that you have the opportunity to watch!

Minnie M
10th-July-2006, 07:24 PM
OK, so did Lennart make the link between musical structure and dancing, or did Nigel?
(you've got me curious now)
Definitely Lennart Westerlund - Nigel's first 'musicality' lesson was almost the same as the class Lennart gave in Sweden - the one which explained counting 8's etc.

- Nigel was heavily into Lindy at one time - (in fact he makes a point of learning most dance styles,) and most of the other styles teach frame and styling etc.

BTW I think I have a Herrange video showing Lennart's class which someone gave me about 10 years ago.

The great Lennart Westerlund below

ducasi
10th-July-2006, 08:06 PM
...

But happen it did. If it hadn't been N&N, it would have come from elsewhere, other people, other dancers - someone or some groups would have done this. Or MJ would quietly have declined, I believe - without progress, without evolution, that's generally what happens.

...

Actually, I know a few dancers with knowledge, who aren't progressing at all. It's the ones with that drive, or talent, or willingness to take the risk... they're the ones who progress, and they get the knowledge along the way, anyway they can. You seem to be arguing David's (& my) point very well – it's the talented dancers and teachers that bring progress.

straycat
10th-July-2006, 08:24 PM
You seem to be arguing David's (& my) point very well – it's the talented dancers and teachers that bring progress.

Who's arguing? :rolleyes:
I'm just saying it takes people and music. Or is that music and people? :cool:

MartinHarper
10th-July-2006, 11:19 PM
How about a more funky "street" style brought to us by a new generation of dancers to whom the current music and style is boring?

I think that's unlikely. There are teachers who teach that style, and some great dancers who dance that style, so sure it's possible. However, to make it work in a partner dance, you need excellent lead/follow, a telepathic connection with your partner, or a pre-choreographed routine.

Telepathy and choreography are great, but MJ is mostly a social dance, so you can't base a dance style around them. Excellent lead/follow would be a fine thing, but how many MJers want to put in that much effort?


There really are vanishingly few dancers who signficantly change their dance style depending on the music genre.

Yep. If I danced differently to different music, I wouldn't get so bored of my leading. Fortunately the same moves and same style can feel different depending on whether it complements or contrasts with the music, so it's not so bad.

If you feel that you are different, consider taking the challenge implicit in this experiment (sorry, Lindy again):
Musicality experiments in lead and follow dance (http://gewurtz.mit.edu/papers/GF04b.pdf)
(if broken, try here (http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:HRkAmbET7r0J:gewurtz.mit.edu/papers/GF04b.pdf+swing+experiment+headphones&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a) or do a googe search)


OK, so did Lennart make the link between musical structure and dancing, or did Nigel?

I suspect that the link pre-dates both of them, in the grand scheme of things.

TA Guy
11th-July-2006, 02:07 PM
Modern Jive is about 25 years old.

For roughly the first 20 years it hardly changed. There was still a wide variety of music being played - pop, dance, swing, Rock'n'Roll, Rhythm and Blues, etc. But the moves/style etc never changed (other than about 4 very unique couples.)

Then Nigel & Nina started teaching musicality to Modern Jivers.

Then people started dancing differently.

Not sure I agree with this. You seem to be implying that musicality is something new and has provoked changes in the style. Well, I don't disagree with the last bit, where I think your wrong is in thinking that Musicality is new, or that, for example, the fad for Lindy Hop a decade or so ago didn't influence MJ exactly as much, maybe more. That Lindy Hop fad contained it's own musicality, more outgoing and explosive, but musicality nonetheless. Lindy Hop left it's mark on MJ.

I can't argue with the technical, 8 beat bar stuff, that someone said Nigel and Nina introduced to MJ. I know nothing about who started to get technical. LOL, but I can tell you that musicality has been around for well over fifteen years, prolly more for all I know. There just wasn't a MJ word for it back then :)

To straycat264
Did you ever attend Linda Barker's classes at the Eastleigh Railway Institute or latterly at Pirellis ? If my memory serves me correctly, she used to throw in more than a bit of musicality from time to time. I remember coming from somebody else's night to hers and thinking 'oh my gawd, that's so cool' :) I remember bits poached from Ballroom I think, long time ago mind. Wonder if we crossed paths :)

Tazmanian Devil
11th-July-2006, 02:39 PM
There are many many infleuences in MJ.

IMHO

It all comes together from the very first time you walk into a MJ venue.
The welcome you get when you sign up, The way you are taught the class and the Revision class, The music that is played and the people dancing in the venue already.

For instance if you didn't have a nice welcome, the class was badly taught, the dancers already there were clicky and refuse to dance with you because you are new and you can't dance to the music you are not going to come back.

Unfortunately some things you can't always get away with like Clickyness you cannot false regulars to dance with the newbies but if you can get all the other aspects right then it incourages all to return.

Just my opinion :cheers:

straycat
11th-July-2006, 02:40 PM
Not sure I agree with this. You seem to be implying that musicality is something new and has provoked changes in the style. Well, I don't disagree with the last bit, where I think your wrong is in thinking that Musicality is new, or that, for example, the fad for Lindy Hop a decade or so ago didn't influence MJ exactly as much, maybe more. That Lindy Hop fad contained it's own musicality, more outgoing and explosive, but musicality nonetheless. Lindy Hop left it's mark on MJ.

I can't argue with the technical, 8 beat bar stuff, that someone said Nigel and Nina introduced to MJ. I know nothing about who started to get technical. LOL, but I can tell you that musicality has been around for well over fifteen years, prolly more for all I know. There just wasn't a MJ word for it back then :)


You know - now you mention it, and given the various trips down memory lane that I've been doing in this conversation - I remember a Ceroc teacher called Bernice who was doing a thing called Friday Fever down the BTC (on Fridays, funnily enough) - she was putting on unsual, slower, sexier music, a lot of it Latin-based, iirc, and giving lessons that weren't a million miles off blues lessons. She was certainly encouraging musicality, although as you say, it wasn't called that at the time) - and the music was very unusual for Ceroc of that time, and very challenging. The evenings didn't last for long (I think she left to go down under) - but they were always packed while they lasted.

As for the 8-count stuff - wasn't James Hamilton starting Jazz Jive** around the same time?
**degree of Lindy footwork & shapes incorporated into MJ



To straycat264
Did you ever attend Linda Barker's classes at the Eastleigh Railway Institute or latterly at Pirellis ? If my memory serves me correctly, she used to throw in more than a bit of musicality from time to time. I remember coming from somebody else's night to hers and thinking 'oh my gawd, that's so cool' :) I remember bits poached from Ballroom I think, long time ago mind. Wonder if we crossed paths :)

To my regret, no - I think I missed these. Didn't go to the Railway Institute until Kieran Loftus started his nights there (went to Pirelli's a lot though)

Didn't Linda & Mike also do the Strictly Ballroom nights at Minstead around then? (missed those too, and have heard ever since how great they were)

Where were your normal venues?

TA Guy
11th-July-2006, 05:07 PM
You know - now you mention it, and given the various trips down memory lane that I've been doing in this conversation - I remember a Ceroc teacher called Bernice who was doing a thing called Friday Fever down the BTC (on Fridays, funnily enough) - she was putting on unsual, slower, sexier music, a lot of it Latin-based, iirc, and giving lessons that weren't a million miles off blues lessons. She was certainly encouraging musicality, although as you say, it wasn't called that at the time) - and the music was very unusual for Ceroc of that time, and very challenging. The evenings didn't last for long (I think she left to go down under) - but they were always packed while they lasted.


Oh God, yeah. Bernice. Forgotten her! She was taxi at Pirelli when I first started. I think Kieran Loftus actually started the Friday Fever nights and those were more or less pure style nights, then she took over when he left to start his own nights/franchise and changed it slightly in the way you mention (more latin, slower, sexier).
Yeah, she moved to IBM in Australia, although she did come back and visit for a while. Dunno if she still does, kinda drifted apart as you do when there's several oceans and continents between you. LOL.



To my regret, no - I think I missed these. Didn't go to the Railway Institute until Kieran Loftus started his nights there (went to Pirelli's a lot though)

Didn't Linda & Mike also do the Strictly Ballroom nights at Minstead around then? (missed those too, and have heard ever since how great they were)

Where were your normal venues?

I didn't go to many of Kieran's at the Railway on a Tuesday, but did go to Pirelli's a lot, more Thur than Wed.
My fav night was Lindas at the Railway institute on a Wed tho. At that time, Pirellis was unofficially considered the more 'normal' nights, suitable for beginners etc. Linda's nights were a tad more challenging, standard was very high and often the beginners class would be over in less than half an hour and the next class would push everyone, sometimes exceptionally challenging if we had 'groups of visitors', of which there were quite a few, from elsewhere. I'd only been dancing for 3/4 years and sometimes those routines were impressively scary, quite a few influences from Ballroom, Latin etc :) Memories coming back :)

Yes, Linda did a good run of Ballroom at Minstead. Although she carried on for a while after they moved to Cricklewood (and the Ashtons thing), eventually the distance just got to much (her own words).

Thinking back, we were well spoilt down here for teachers back then :) Where did it all go wrong. LOL :)

Sparkles
11th-July-2006, 06:24 PM
Just as an aside, let me point out that the initial question I asked was ‘what is the biggest influence', not 'what was'.

The reason I got to thinking about this question is this:

My only other (significant) point of reference is ballroom dancing (which I did and competed in for 16 years, thereabouts), and I was trying to assess how different factors influence ballroom and MJ – and it seemed to me the answers cam out quite differently…

In ballroom dancing (and Latin American) the tempo is very strict. This leads me to think that no matter how many different tracks (or types of music) are played they must all have the same tempo in order for ballroom dancers to dance to them. Also, because ballroom dancing is, in general, constructed as routines that you and your partner learn together, unless they are specifically designed for a piece of music it is unlikely that they will be adaptable enough to include breaks and/or musicality other than the tempo of the dance (or maybe they do and I just never progressed that far :blush: ).
MJ, as we all know, is very different to this and I think music has a much larger role to play… and the people who find the music are (in general) the DJs hence why they were included in the poll. I’ll come back to this in a minute.

As for competitions, I think they have a much larger influence on the ballroom scene than they do on the MJ scene. For one there are stricter rules about who is allowed to compete in which categories and what you are and are not allowed to do, and they are on a much larger scale than any of the MJ competitions I have seen. I know, from previous ballroom dance teachers, that the competitors ‘set the bar’, if you like, as to what sorts of moves (as well as costumes) are ‘in fashion’ at any given time and the dancing teachers often take their inspiration from competitors (this is excluding those teaching students training for medal routines, which are fairly strictly laid out but the examination boards). I think in MJ individuals may take some inspiration from competitors but it is not such a widespread influence (please feel free to disagree, it’s just my take).

Teachers, therefore (from my ponderings) take their influence from fairly different angles in the ballroom and MJ worlds. As MinnieM quite rightly points out, MJ teachers take their cues more from the music (in general) – adding their own interpretations to individual tracks or devising a concept that can be applied to all MJ dancing through listening to the structure of different pieces of music. Where as ballroom teachers take their cues from move structures they either devise themselves or see competitors doing (I know this is true of MJ teachers too, but my impression is that the music influences them more – again please feel free to disagree).

I’m still undecided as to what I feel the biggest influence is on MJ (currently) but I am enjoying reading your contributions and am assimilating them, along with my own ideas. Please keep them coming!

Graham W
11th-July-2006, 06:39 PM
The teachers; as they reach more of the rank & file, IMHO,
DJ's don't influence the dancing as much.

G

Lory
11th-July-2006, 07:00 PM
Well, IMO, it doesn't matter how much a teacher may teach say, a lindy style, if the Dj chooses to play a set with a lot of smooth blues or tango-ey tracks, that will be what influences how the dancers dance that night.

So I reckon its still down the the DJ :)

Gadget
12th-July-2006, 01:21 AM
I think that teachers have more influence over a wider area, but this then leads to the question; what influences the teachers?
I think inspirational dancers - ones you see and want to emulate. Ones people talk about, ones people queue up to dance with - everyone wants a slice of that, so the teachers try to give it. Of course you then follow on that with what influences the inspirational dancer?
Partly music has to come into it, but as does other dance styles and other dancers and almost every form of movement & expression they are exposed to.

I know I am influenced by inspirational dancers. I am also influenced by martial arts movies. I am influenced by wrestling with my kids. Workshops that give concepts rather than moves inspire me. An expressive partner inspires me.
I'm not sure that the music inspires me - it just gives a backdrop or framework to form stuff around; not exactly "inspiring", more giving space and opportunity to insert the inspiration.

So what has the most influence in current MJ?: For me, inspirational dancers.

I think one of the greatest compliments/acheivements is to be one of the people who inspire - these are the people who are shaping the direction of MJ. They may not be at the fore of spreading or influencing the rest of the MJ world, but they are behind it all; :respect::worthy::waycool:

bigdjiver
12th-July-2006, 01:49 AM
...So what has the most influence in current MJ?: For me, inspirational dancers.

I think one of the greatest compliments/acheivements is to be one of the people who inspire - these are the people who are shaping the direction of MJ. They may not be at the fore of spreading or influencing the rest of the MJ world, but they are behind it all; :respect::worthy::waycool:And somehow the inspired have to meet the inspirational. As others have said we were inspired by N&N and many others at the Le Jive championships. Now I believe it is the weekenders where the fusion of dance forms and innovative dancers now occur, and the forums where ideas are thrashed out. It is more than just about the dance itself. Clothes, music, teaching styles, diet, social mores, anything peripheral and related all come into consideration when people and minds meet.

Lory
16th-July-2006, 10:16 AM
I am also influenced by martial arts movies. I am influenced by wrestling with my kids.
I'm not sure if I'm looking forward to our next dance :what: :whistle: :rofl:

Freya
16th-July-2006, 11:53 AM
I know I am influenced by inspirational dancers. I am also influenced by martial arts movies. I am influenced by wrestling with my kids. Workshops that give concepts rather than moves inspire me. An expressive partner inspires me.


I'm not sure if I'm looking forward to our next dance :what: :whistle: :rofl: :yeah: Think How I feel I've been wrestled by his kids and have to put up with him every week!:eek: :wink:

Gadget
17th-July-2006, 07:21 AM
:yeah: Think How I feel I've been wrestled by his kids and have to put up with him every week!:eek: :wink:
Yea - but people have been saying that your lead is getting better :wink:

Freya
17th-July-2006, 08:28 PM
Yea - but people have been saying that your lead is getting better :wink:
Sooo thats what it is??? :wink: