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Gus
27th-June-2006, 12:53 PM
Seen these moves taught a few times and thought about teaching them myself .... but not absolutely clear about the best teaching model and how to avoid back injuries. Any Gurus want to suggest how or anyone want to contribute any horror stories about how NOT to do it?

Will
27th-June-2006, 12:57 PM
Genuine question:-

What is a "Dominator"?

Cruella
27th-June-2006, 12:58 PM
It involves leather and whips i believe. :rolleyes:

LMC
27th-June-2006, 01:23 PM
Not even close to being a guru - but hope you're talking about a specialist workshop and not a regular intermediate class Gus?

Gadget
27th-June-2006, 01:33 PM
Yup - ladies; make sure that it's actuall led - Bruised behind and sore head from someone misstaking a lead of mine. (Bad leading on my part, but the follower shouldn't commit themselve untill they feel secure IMHO)

It's not taught/picked up on enough, but I think that the move has to be done right with the followers coming up on their toes and bending the knees to keep the center of gravity as close to the lead as possable - makes the move sooo much easier.

Twirly
27th-June-2006, 01:35 PM
Can someone please describe what is meant by a dominator?

Gus
27th-June-2006, 01:37 PM
Not even close to being a guru - but hope you're talking about a specialist workshop and not a regular intermediate class Gus?Yeah ... like with my background I'm going to teach this stuff from stage :whistle:

Seen it done my others but not really my scene. Putting together a workshop and would like to include Laybacks, but ONLY is I can work out a way of teaching that can be taught to all body sizes and can take account opf lack of flexibiltiy ... then I can worry about how you teach it as an object of musical interpretation rather than just as an object of ego extension:wink:

KatieR
27th-June-2006, 01:51 PM
Well... over here a layback involves a chair and a bottle of vodka..

tsh
27th-June-2006, 02:41 PM
Dunno if it's any use, but there is the variant where both parties keep their backs vertical, straight arms, hands behind shoulders (currently being taught with an entry from an arm roll mambo and a further arm roll in ceroc classes across europe). It gives you the sweeping dip effect without requiring as much balance. Superficially it looks similar to a layback, so you might be able to present it as a variation, to use for the purposes of the exersise?

Sean

Frankie_4711
27th-June-2006, 06:32 PM
Well I'm not entirely sure what either of them is ...

spindr
27th-June-2006, 08:31 PM
Don't often lead laybacks -- but I'm under the distinct impression that the amount of lean back is determined by the follower -- or rather that the leader shouldn't force the follower to lean back, and that the follower shouldn't lean back so far as to unbalance the leader (and themselves).

Also "Dance Technique and Injury Prevention" suggestion that when dancing a back bend that the dancer needs to "pull up" their legs and trunk -- otherwise you can strain the ligaments between the vertebrae. See section 3.48 :)

SpinDr

jivecat
27th-June-2006, 09:09 PM
I don't really like these moves. I find they are not often led well enough to feel really good. If they don't feel good I'm presuming they don't look good either. It is easy to feel that I'm slightly off balance, usually to my right, which I dislike the feel of. I don't like being dominated and that the move is way out of my control - even though most moves are actually out of my control, most of them don't involve an upsidedown view of the world, and I could stop dead if I wasn't happy. The man's foot has to be between my feet (I think) and the process of getting it there is often not very slick. It's physically very strenuous for me (and I am reasonably dance-fit) and I always slightly resent the exertion being expected of me without me being asked! So if a lady felt she had limited flexibility, mobility or a back problem she would have even more reason to hate this move.

I don't really see that it would have much of a place in a musicality workshop because almost invariably it seems a trifle clumsy, clunky and forced into the music even when it's well-led. I think there are a lot of moves that are much simpler and are less demanding in terms of technique that would be a lot more useful to an intermediate leader in terms of developing musicality. It's a complex move for both the man and the lady in terms of balance and timing and IME it rarely has enough flow to express the music well.

This might be might be my vote for the worst move ever when it's led by an inept and over-confident near-beginner. At least with a drop there are more things a lady can do to make herself feel more secure. If you are planning to include this move in an intermediate class I think you will be encouraging its use by dancers who aren't ready yet.

Tsh mentions a variation - is this the one where both partners bend their knees and lean away from each other slightly, thereby counterbalancing each other? That one's fine by me, it feels nice and involves equal risk & strenuousness for each party. If leaders had to undergo a compulsory following experience I bet the layback is one move they would drop pretty quickly from their own repertoire.

As Gadget mentions, it is quite easy to misinterpret the lead for this one. I've several times nearly done it myself, even with familiar and capable partners.

So, Gus - just don't go there!

(Rant over. Not sure if I really feel quite this strongly but I'm supposed to be doing some work and posting has postponed the evil minute.)

Magic Hans
27th-June-2006, 10:16 PM
Seen these moves taught a few times and thought about teaching them myself .... but not absolutely clear about the best teaching model and how to avoid back injuries. Any Gurus want to suggest how or anyone want to contribute any horror stories about how NOT to do it?


Not a guru at all, so pleeeease feel free to ignore!!!

Firstly, I just don't do dominators, and can't remember what a layback is!!

I remember being taught a dominator, ending up with my right hand, butterfly gripping partners right behind her back. I seem to remember a suggesting to have my right foot between her feet, and quite far forward.

My temptation always seems to lean toward rather than away from partner (not a good idea).

I guess I'd only really do these with someone I knew really quite well, and trusted me ..... it's been so long now, that I'd have to relearn, I think!!

!a^

jivecat
27th-June-2006, 10:19 PM
I guess I'd only really do these with someone I knew really quite well, and trusted me ..... it's been so long now, that I'd have to relearn, I think!!

!a^
Sensible guy!

Andreas
27th-June-2006, 11:22 PM
Not even close to being a guru - but hope you're talking about a specialist workshop and not a regular intermediate class Gus?
In New Zealand the Layback is considered an Intermediate move and while I was there, I haven't really heard of any problems directly related to that move. I still have no idea what a Dominator is, though, Cruella's description sounds inspiring :whistle:

Layback:
- Bring the lady in close (mild slam). You achieve that by raising your left hand (her right) and pull her with the other hand in.

- Once both are pelvis to pelvis and chest to chest the guy slightly bends his knees (lady does that naturally then, too, w/o knowing :D ).

- Ever so slightly later but almost at the same time the guy's right hand releases pressure from the lady's upper back, hand moves down to lower back and left hand pushes lady gently back.
Because she is still held quite close by the guy's right hand bending back is the natural thing to do. Depending on how far down the guys hand is, the lady may be able to bend back quite far or not.
Since the guy is 'sitting back' the position should be very stable. If either part feels unstable, just 'clamp' your knees around the right leg of your partner, ask ZW for more info on how that works. :rofl:
The lady's means of control is her left hand/arm. Because the lady's are usually is on top of the guy's, she can just slide her hand down his biceps to the elbow and stop wherever she wants. If she is (over-) confident she can also just let go but that requires a decent amount of trust in your own stomach muscles and the support the guy can provide. With the right hand the lady could theoretically determine how far the guy pushes. But be aware that a sloppy arm will put both of you off balance. So preferably use the left hand to make sure you don't go further down than you are prepared to.

- Coming back up is the same in reverse.


Important with this move really is that it is not rushed, not down and DEFINITELY NOT up. Whipping the lady in the dead point of the move or from there back up is what causes injuries. Everything else can be controlled quite easily.

My advice for teaching the move is also get the guys to take the follower part to see how much trust and sense is involved.

I have the feeling I have forgotten to mention something but can't quite think of it. Just keep it a smooth motion and you will be on the safe side. :flower:


I don't do laybacks very often but some music and dance style just asks for one or the other,

LMC
28th-June-2006, 08:00 AM
IMO, the lead pushing the follower back gently, not rushing and the hand on the follower's lower back are the operative points here. Experience of too many poorly led laybacks means that I bail out of any intermediate class where a layback is included in the routine these days. It is very difficult to stop a really determined overly strong lead pushing you backwards further than you want to go and if their supporting hand isn't in the right place then the move can be extremely painful.

Andreas
28th-June-2006, 09:02 AM
IMO, the lead pushing the follower back gently, not rushing and the hand on the follower's lower back are the operative points here.
In your case (as a follower) I would have put the operative words on lady's left hand on guys right biceps because the guy can do bugger all if the lady blocks it there. Also clamp the right thigh gives you a lot of leverage to counter rough execution of the move.


Experience of too many poorly led laybacks means that I bail out of any intermediate class where a layback is included in the routine these days. It is very difficult to stop a really determined overly strong lead pushing you backwards further than you want to go and if their supporting hand isn't in the right place then the move can be extremely painful.
At the risk of sounding rude, but could it also be that your limited experience and perhaps lack of proper teaching contributed to those bad experiences? The lady has in this move a lot of control and it is very much up to her to make use of it. I do not contest that there are a lot of guys leading this move very poorly but it is not that as a follower one cannot do anything about it. Instead of bailing out of class you may want to consider raising your hand and asking for a slow and proper break-down of the move to avoid problems. :wink:

LMC
28th-June-2006, 10:05 AM
At the risk of sounding rude, but could it also be that your limited experience and perhaps lack of proper teaching contributed to those bad experiences?
Combination of both - thanks for advice :flower:

Monika
28th-June-2006, 11:04 AM
Seen these moves taught a few times and thought about teaching them myself .... but not absolutely clear about the best teaching model and how to avoid back injuries. Any Gurus want to suggest how or anyone want to contribute any horror stories about how NOT to do it?

...even reading the name layback gives me the shivers and thoughts of pain :tears: At a party a couple of years ago someone thought it would be a good idea to do this move with me - but that very gentle push was just a tiny bit too hard for me and caused instant pain and a couple of hours later I found myself collapsing on the floor in unbearable pain:tears: . Barely managed to move for a couple of days and all movements extremely painful. To cut a long story short this caused months and months off dancing - quite a number of weeks off work (commuting 150 mile not great with a sore back) - hundreds if not thousands of pounds in treatments from osteopat etc in the next year or two and learning to live with pain. This is just my experience and diagnose was two severly damaged joints (upper half of back) and a bunch of other medical terms I can't remember. I do have a history of back-problems with slipped disc etc many years ago, but been fine for many years when this incident happened and rarely dance any dips or drops or back-straining moves with people I don't trust and haven't practised with, but even so these things can happen and might be a coinsidence it was this particular move, but my back just doesn't work that way - normally very flexible and strong - from early age sportsgymnastics and later age rock-climbing etc, but this back-leaning sway position just doesn't agree with me. Personally I wouldn't go there again or attempt this particular move again, but totally understand (hopefully) most people don't have any problems with their back or will ever get it and just a word of caution. And for the record - I have absolutely no hard feelings towards dance-partner at the time as the move was executed perfectly and no issues with competence or the way the move was done- just a painful discovery my back cannot bend backwards - even the slightest.
Take care out there - you don't always get a second chance to try a move out. Happy dancing :flower:

Gus
28th-June-2006, 01:25 PM
......I bail out of any intermediate class where a layback is included in the routine these days. Urrrrhhh? Someone teaches these in intermediate classes? Given that you need to be sure of the lady's back, the guys balance, the correct feet positioning, that the guy knows how to lower than lift .... HOW THE HELL DO YOU DO THIS TEACHING FROM STAGE?????:angry:

I know that the Kiwis teach these in classes buts that a different culture and different expectation ... I'm looking to include the move in my Blues Improvers workshop, as a fair few people do it locally (where its known as a Dominator) ... so thought it might be a good time to do it right. I was originally taught by the NZ Master, Paul Tavanasau some years back. He taught it exceptionally well, proving it can be taught properly, but I can't find the video ... so may have to email him directly. However, Andreas's contribution is excellent and I hope to work that through next time I get some dance space to practice in :)

Zebra Woman
28th-June-2006, 02:28 PM
I have very mixed feelings about Laybacks.

Mostly POSITIVE :clap:

The Good - I have a bad back and a well executed slow layback is fantastic for making it feel better. If my back is feeling sore I will even request several laybacks for medicinal purposes.

The way I like it is like this....I need to be close to the man with his right hand very low on my back, below my waist. We bend our knees. As Andreas mentioned :blush: I grip his right thigh between mine (for security and balance:innocent: ) and lift my heels (very important) as I curl back. I try and keep my weight above my own feet as far as possible but I do need some frame from the guy to get myself back up. The position of the man's arms is crucial but on my own I can't work out where it is I like them to be. I have no idea how heavy I am to haul back up, but I am intending to be as light as possible.


Some Negative :sad:

The Bad -I danced with someone who was all fired up with dancing in a troupe to 'Do you Love Me'. That song was playing and they were inspired to treat me just like their troupe partner and I was pushed back so hard into a layback that I wrenched my back. It was very stiff and hurt a lot for about 3 months.

The other things that feel horrid are a too tight hold around my waist, not enough knee bending, worried look on man's face, and untrustworthy arms...

ZW

Chef
28th-June-2006, 02:48 PM
If I am thinking about a completely different move then the rest of this post is going to be rubbish.

If I am understanding the descriptions of this move correctly then is certainly a move that I regard as so dangerous that I will only do it with someone that I have trained with away from the social dance floor so that we both know each other and we have worked things out slowly and carefully before. Currently I will only use this move with 3 people. In that context it can look a dramatic move when it is fitted to some accent points in music. It is just so fraught with danger when done by people with more enthusiasm than control.

The things that we worked on for using this move are.

POSITION OF FEET - basically interleaved with my thigh that is going to support the womans pelvis between her thighs. If the woman is much shorter than me she moves onto her toes to get her pelvis as high up my thigh as possible and I sink down a little since it will be more stable when we go into the layback. Start with the womans crutch as near to the top of the guys thigh as possible with firm contact pressure. Nothing less will do.

GRIP - I really prefer having either both hands connected by a butterfly hand grip or with both my hands on the ladies shoulder blades. I just find that I can control things better that way. The best reason to have one hand on the top of the womans pelvis/lower back is to stop her from sliding down your thigh because she hasn't tilted her pelvis forward and up (see below).

GOING DOWN - The lady tips her pelvis forward and up. This is my best signal that the lady is ready to start the move and it means that as she goes into the lay back position her pelvis rotates with her so that she finshes with the tailbone part of her pelvis resting on my (by then horizontal thigh). This part is very important if you are doing this move in a performance with a 13 stone guy as your partner. If he doesn’t tilt and rotate his pelvis then he has crushed nuts and a sudden inability to remember choreography. All too often I have seen this move done badly where the woman tries to keep her pelvis vertical as her spine moves to the horizontal position and the lower part of the spine does all the bending. Once the woman has tilted her pelvis she moves her shoulders back SLIGHTLY to engage her connection with me and only then do I let my arms out smoothly to control the layback. It is at this point it is very helpful to have all the cushions from your sofa on the floor behind the woman when you are practicing. As the lady is doing the layback I am sinking down in a sumo wrestler like squat (to ensure my thigh is in constant contact with her pelvis - if it isn't she has every right to feel scared because she cannot feel her support under the base of the spine) until my thigh ends up nearly horizontal. As this is all happening my torso is angling backwards enough to counterbalance the lady. If you are going to make an error in the counterbalance it should be that the man is providing too much rather than too little. If you fall towards the woman then her head will hit the floor first and you will then land on top of her. It is best that the lady does not throw her head backwards or she risks a whiplash injury to her neck especially if the leader chooses exactly that moment to pull the lady up too fast. Ladies need to keep their pelvis, spine and neck all in a straight line.

GET ON UP – Pretty much the same as going down. PLEASE ladies don't try to get yourself up. Let us do it or it really upsets our counterbalancing. Think PLANK. The lift needs to be smooth, progressive and matched to each other. Violent applications of power may make you feel macho but it will hurt some part of your partner and the unsteady result will make you both look like dicks. Only once you are both up to the vertical can the leader think about letting go of the woman. The leader also provides the role of a “safety cage” for the woman at this point and only when the woman is up and obviously stable does the man step backwards to open out some space for you to start dancing again.

Key messages.

ONLY do it with someone that you have practiced it slowly and carefully with.
Even then don’t spring it on her. Let her see it coming. (or have a quiet word of warning).
Position of feet. Get pelvis to top of thigh. It is a move for good friends.
Get a grip. Nothing wishy washy will do.
The woman leads the start of the layback not you. She has right to abort at any time.
Power with control. No pushing down, no yanking up. Smooth.
Tilt the pelvis. Keep pelvis, spine and neck in a straight line all the way through.
Ensure your woman is upright, balanced and stable before ending your safety role.

Daisy Chain
28th-June-2006, 09:19 PM
:eek:
.

Start with the womans crutch as near to the top of the guys thigh as possible with firm contact pressure. Nothing less will do.



How many women go dancing when they are on crutches? :rofl:

To be serious, I hate this move and I've always found it difficult as I've never been taught how to do it. I thought that as it feels so indecent to make contact with ones crotch on the man's upper thigh, that I must be doing something wrong. So, I valiantly try to support my own weight on my dodgy knees whilst praying for the move to be over PDQ.

Please Gus, don't encourage men to use it....

Daisy

(A Crutchless Little FLower)

Imagine being A Crotchless Little FLower on a dance night :eek:

David Bailey
28th-June-2006, 09:28 PM
I thought that as it feels so indecent to make contact with ones crotch on the man's upper thigh
Hell, that's half my repertoire gone :eek: :devil:

Frankie_4711
28th-June-2006, 09:57 PM
OK, so now I've got the gist of what the move is, I think I can say - I like them! Although I've usually done them with a sweep where I lay back to my right, swoosh round and come up to my left (is this a variation or is it a different move and I've got the wrong end of the stick?). I've not done that many but certainly enjoyed the experiences (most of which were in the Blues Room at Storm). The only point where I have felt there was any danger was when my head nearly collided with the dancer behind me's leg, rather than anything to do with the actual move itself. I must say though, I think I may have been led into this move more often than I have done it, but being the 'sensible' little thing that I am didn't want to throw myself (not literally! Honestly!) backwards if that wasn't the intention!

Anna
29th-June-2006, 10:35 AM
I <3
LAYBACKS

:drool:

Chef
29th-June-2006, 12:07 PM
:eek:
How many women go dancing when they are on crutches? :rofl:

:blush: :blush: What can I say? A senior moment! A correctly spelt but wrong choice of word. I am starting to lose my marbles. And I really wanted to learn Tango before I went ga ga.


To be serious, I hate this move and I've always found it difficult as I've never been taught how to do it.

I am sure that if both you and your partner(s) were taught how to do it properly then you both might grow to like it. I remember learning the pretzel - done badly it feels horrible but the changes needed to make it feel nice are small but important.


I thought that as it feels so indecent to make contact with ones crotch on the man's upper thigh, that I must be doing something wrong.

Well yes, it is something that you are doing wrong. By tilting your pelvis forward and up you actually start engaging contact with the mans thigh at about the point of the perineum (sp?) and then almost immediately start the pelvis rolling backwards so that the support point quickly moves from the bum cheeks to the upper pelvis. If you don't do this rolling action then you just end up feeling like a dog that is humping somebodies thigh and doing the bending of the lower spine thing. Not pleasant for either party.


So, I valiantly try to support my own weight on my dodgy knees whilst praying for the move to be over PDQ.

Pretty much impossible because the layback action just about requires the woman to move onto her toes. It also makes it nearly impossible for the guy to feel stable. If your pelvis is not in contact with his thigh and you are trying to support your weight on your tippy toes then you just feel unstable in his arms with your mass swinging from side to side. It just feels like holding a Slinky spring. Put your weight on the guys thigh. It usually anchors his thigh and foot on the floor and makes sure it doesn't go anywhere. If you try to support yourself on your toes you can end up pushing the mans knee sideways and the is absolutely nothing he can then do to recover the situation.


Please Gus, don't encourage men to use it....

Please Gus, train men AND women to do it properly and even then ONLY together. One person in the partnership knowing how to do it and not the other just will not work.


Imagine being A Crotchless Little FLower on a dance night :eek:

OK, I am trying to imagine it. It must be cool and very refreshing.

Just make sure you don't do an airstep known as the cartwheel (or one called a Hanger).

Or you might be a pornographic little flower,

Gus
29th-June-2006, 12:26 PM
Please Gus, train men AND women to do it properly and even then ONLY together. One person in the partnership knowing how to do it and not the other just will not work.Its a bit like teaching drops ... I'm not the greatest fan of it but if you have people doing it badly do you just ignore the problem or do you try to teach them the correct way? I'd like to teach laynacks properly, I think they do have a role to play in Blues. However, I have to be honest with myself and at the moment I dont know if I'm good enough to teach them:( Got a few weekends to do some work on the teaching model before I make a decision as to whether to include in the workshop or not.

Russell Saxby
29th-June-2006, 12:27 PM
I am not one for reading (and understanding) descriptions of moves.

anyone got a picture of a layback in action. (p.s no pictures of sunbeds etc... I am being serious)

ta

Andreas
29th-June-2006, 01:01 PM
I am not one for reading (and understanding) descriptions of moves.

anyone got a picture of a layback in action. (p.s no pictures of sunbeds etc... I am being serious)

ta
http://dance.kiwi.nu/images/ceroc/tj_layb2.jpg


There is a variation of it. Usually it is executed with both of the lady's feet on the ground. Quality is not good because it is taken off video footage.

To add to my initial description, the thing that I had forgotten was later mentioned by ZW: Lady gets on her toes.

robd
29th-June-2006, 01:06 PM
My advice for teaching the move is also get the guys to take the follower part to see how much trust and sense is involved.


I'll sometimes put myself into a layback (assuming it's the move I am thinking of) after doing one with a partner. I guess it's not quite what you're suggesting above since I basically just lean back as far as I can whilst keeping my own weight but it's good for a giggle.

Not sure whether I really like these as a move though I do think they could be used in a musical way (contrary to the belief of an earlier poster). I don't do them v well. I'm probably one of the people ZW mentions as having a "worried look on man's face," - though that's probably as much to do with her wanting me to put my hands "very low on my back, below my waist." (Thought: where does the back become the backside? (and does ZW care? :wink: ))

I do know however that I don't like the sweeping variant of these - straight down and straight up is good enough for me. The sweeping variant is
* much more likely to pull me off balance
* more likely to result in another dancer coming from nowhere and colliding with the sweepee
and I think it requires more raw strength with many followers than I have available :what:

Robert

Zebra Woman
29th-June-2006, 01:16 PM
I'll sometimes put myself into a layback (assuming it's the move I am thinking of) after doing one with a partner. I guess it's not quite what you're suggesting above since I basically just lean back as far as I can whilst keeping my own weight but it's good for a giggle.

Not sure whether I really like these as a move though I do think they could be used in a musical way (contrary to the belief of an earlier poster). I don't do them v well. I'm probably one of the people ZW mentions as having a "worried look on man's face," - though that's probably as much to do with her wanting me to put my hands "very low on my back, below my waist."


Er yes Rob you are one of the ones with a worried look, I think it's because we're not quite counterbalanced in the way Chef describes, so your worried look is probably quite understandable...but I think we will be getting past that quite soon.



(Thought: where does the back become the backside? (and does ZW care? :wink: ))


Robert

Yes I do actually Rob :innocent: , As far as I'm concerned anything bikini area is out of bounds....unless I led it.

There is a good five inches between my waist and the top of where a bikini would be....

Oh never mind, I'll show you Saturday.

Is this a trick question? :rofl:

ZW

ducasi
29th-June-2006, 04:59 PM
Is this a layback, a dominator, or a highly misleading image to put on the cover of a DVD aimed at Beginners? :)

http://www.network.ceroc.com/images/shop/56modern-jive-for-beginners-v.jpg

David Bailey
29th-June-2006, 05:54 PM
Hmmm, I got a mail from Cerocchilterns just now. Howard and Nicola are teaching a drops workshop on sunday, and I noticed:


Add dynamics and passion to your dancing with a fabulous range of stylish and sexy seducers, sweeping laybacks and dynamic dips and drops!
(emphasis mine)

Daisy Chain
30th-June-2006, 12:35 PM
:

...you just end up feeling like a dog that is humping somebodies thigh and doing the bending of the lower spine thing.



I just know that next time this happens, I am going to be overcome with the urge to bark. :blush:

Daisy

(A Reluctantly Humped Little Flower)

Twirly
30th-June-2006, 01:18 PM
K - now I've seen the images, I know what you're talking about!

If anyone looked at my "relaxing while dancing" thread, this is one of the moves a particular partner has tried to put me into (and himself, which was actually quite funny - I think I had the strength to hold him, but he couldn't bend backwards!). I didn't know what I was doing, though he did talk me through it. However, I have some back problems (not too severe these days, but don't want it getting worse!), so it's a bit tricky (ditto a tango lunge bend back thingy done at the Wessex House class last week - sorry, not good with the names of moves). Used to be really flexible in the lumbar vertebrae, but am not now - however I've started doing some yoga exercises to loosen up and strengthen that area now that this seems to be on the menu. Assume that the guy must've judged me capable of doing it.

I wonder if I should be getting myself to a drops/dips etc. workshop as soon as possible though. :confused:

Chef
30th-June-2006, 01:36 PM
Its a bit like teaching drops ... I'm not the greatest fan of it but if you have people doing it badly do you just ignore the problem or do you try to teach them the correct way?

For evil to triumph all that is required is that good people stay silent. You may not cure all evils but you will make a difference. You may not succeed but at least you will be able to say that you tried your best.

If you have students that really want to learn and you feel competant to teach then go for it I say.

Gus
30th-June-2006, 06:37 PM
If you have students that really want to learn and you feel competant to teach then go for it I say.Sometimes I wonder if its not about been competent but about being not as abad as some of the numpties teaching these moves :rolleyes: Drops aren't too bad ... been teaching them for years and been taught how to teach them well. The laybacks are very different. A sweeping layback pulls on about every major muscle group in the lower back, abs and puts a lot of pressure on teh spine ..... not something to enter into lightly. I would love to see how Howard is going to teach them.

From what I see he's teaching an open class with no fore-knowledge of people's dance capability, physical condition or expectation. . I've got a big advantage on my workshop. I know nearly all the attendees and they've had to be pre-assessed before doing the workshop.

David Bailey
30th-June-2006, 08:01 PM
So, did anyone ever find out what a dominator was? :confused:

Andreas
1st-July-2006, 01:59 PM
So, did anyone ever find out what a dominator was? :confused:
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247556&postcount=20 (last post previous page)

I'm looking to include the move in my Blues Improvers workshop, as a fair few people do it locally (where its known as a Dominator)
So they are essentially the same thing under two difference names.

jivecat
1st-July-2006, 03:14 PM
OK.

Clamp the thighs - Check
Onto my toes - Check
Tilt my pelvis - probably, will monitor next time
Weight on man's thigh - probably, will monitor next time
Hand on man's upper arm - ah!



GRIP - I really prefer having either both hands connected by a butterfly hand grip or with both my hands on the ladies shoulder blades. I just find that I can control things better that way.

In practice, this is what often happens, so I don't get the control option that ZW mentions of sliding my hand down the man's forearm then stopping when I feel I've gone far enough. So the man is usually able to control how low I bend over, which, not unreasonably, can be very unnerving.


PLEASE ladies don't try to get yourself up. Let us do it or it really upsets our counterbalancing. Think PLANK. The lift needs to be smooth, progressive and matched to each other.

I'm assuming here that I should keep my stomach muscles tensed but not actually use them? And definitely not pull on the guy's arms? If my arms have been straight - like the dramatic-looking lady in the photo - how can I get my elbow bent again without exerting some force on the man's arm?

This is another reason why I don't like the move. I don't like the feeling of effort involved. I think I can do PLANK but the exit from the move often feels like hard work, as it does from lots of drops. I'm presuming that if it feels effortful it looks effortful and IMO the magic of dance is that it should look and feel totally practised and effortless.



Keep pelvis, spine and neck in a straight line all the way through.Not sure if Chef is talking about the man or the lady here - again, the photo lady most definitely hasn't. Whether to tip my head back or not is another issue I have with this move - it makes it feel more scary, but a lot of leaders seem to expect this and make me do it. If my head is tipped back it greatly increases the stress on my neck muscles. A further variation is if I have to put one arm back behind my head, which makes the raise up even more effortful. I guess my centre of gravity changes, challenging my balance and core muscle strength even more.

I have seen people (and been made to do it) with both arms behind my head, though I can't begin to work out how it was done. I hate having to think about what to do with my arms. It's been suggested that I do some sort of rolling the hands round each other (as in The Wheels on the Bus.....) as a style feature, which I think is an utterly naff idea, as well as making it even harder to coordinate.

I think if the move was being done by an expert leader and follower then it would be possible to do it with musicality. But I think it has to be absolutely fluent for it to be used well, and in my experience it isn't usually fluent enough. Also, my head is so full of all the above thoughts re technique that I don't even hear the music until it's over.

Chef
1st-July-2006, 09:56 PM
Sorry guys. Another long sort of technical post. Skip straight over if dry stuff isn't your bag


OK.
Clamp the thighs - Check


Preferrably not. It will stop your pelvis from rotating. If you think of having a heavy plank of wood and you have one end of it on the top of your thigh and one or more hands on the other end of it. As you let your hands away from you and sink down into this sumo style squat you will find that the forces combine to wedge the bit that is on your thigh more securely towards your hip. Now if you put yourself in the place of the plank, then there are forces exerted downwards via your shouldders towards your pelvis. If your pelvis has rotated with your spine then these forces come down through a straight spine. If you do not rotate your pelvis then your spine will be bent and the forces will come down a bent spine. Not very comfortable.


In practice, this is what often happens, so I don't get the control option that ZW mentions of sliding my hand down the man's forearm then stopping when I feel I've gone far enough. So the man is usually able to control how low I bend over, which, not unreasonably, can be very unnerving.

I can see where you are coming from. If you have little faith in the abilities of your partner then, just like doing drops, your try to limit his ability to make a complete pigs ear of it. This is why I only do it with people that I trust AND that trust me on the basis of working it out in practice. It can be quite unnerving for the guy as well. Here you are in this wonderfully counterbalanced position with your weight well back so that if you are going to fall anywhere it won't be on the woman and she starts desparately clawing her way back upright and throwing her head and arms forward and you are desparately trying to rebalance this system before you both end up in a heap in the floor. KEEP EYE CONTACT. By the look in your eyes he will know when you have done down enough and when you want to come back up unless he is a complete numb nuts. If he is a numb nuts he shouldn't be doing this move.


I'm assuming here that I should keep my stomach muscles tensed but not actually use them? And definitely not pull on the guy's arms? If my arms have been straight - like the dramatic-looking lady in the photo - how can I get my elbow bent again without exerting some force on the man's arm?.

Yes keep them tensed but don't use them. Do not pull on the guys arms UNLESS it is something that that you have worked out and agreed on before. If you look at the photo then the mans hand is at his shoulder. He can now raise this hand vertically up and the woman will come back to the vertical. When they step apart then the hands will natually lower between them.


This is another reason why I don't like the move. I don't like the feeling of effort involved. I think I can do PLANK but the exit from the move often feels like hard work, as it does from lots of drops. I'm presuming that if it feels effortful it looks effortful and IMO the magic of dance is that it should look and feel totally practised and effortless. .

Drops and this move should look effortless because they are effort less. I have practiced a drop with an 8 stone lady and had a pulled a hamstring because she launched herself into the drop. I have also done one handed drops with 15 stone men with no feeling of effort. I have found a good general rule is, If it feels like an effort then something, somewhere is going wrong. Sit down and think about it. Much better than doing it badly loads of times and wearing yourself out. Break the move down into small sections and work each bit out between you and then reassemble it and check that it all still works. If a woman tries to help herself out of drops or this layback I find it make the whole thing a lot of hard work for me.


Not sure if Chef is talking about the man or the lady here - again, the photo lady most definitely hasn't.

Actually both. If the womans spine is bent then ther forces are coming down along a bent spine. The layback in the photo isn't that deep but the forces would get bigger as she went further back (and the spine more bent). The guy is aslo in a stronger position if his spine is straight. If he ws leaning forwards he wouldn't be able to counterbalance unless he shoved a simarlarly big big of anatomy in the opposite direction. I can't see him wanting to lean backwards by only bending his spine.


Whether to tip my head back or not is another issue I have with this move - it makes it feel more scary, but a lot of leaders seem to expect this and make me do it. If my head is tipped back it greatly increases the stress on my neck muscles. A further variation is if I have to put one arm back behind my head, which makes the raise up even more effortful. I guess my centre of gravity changes, challenging my balance and core muscle strength even more..

I am not sure how he could MAKE you tip your head back. DavidB could probably lead it while he was still standing at the bar with a pint in his hand (use the Force DavidB). As you say the head tipping back greatly increases the stress on the neck muscles, YOUR neck muscles. If you are going to do it you must do it at a speed that is not going to hurt you and KNOW that your partner is not going to suddenly yank you up like a rag doll. Fix the guy wilh direct eye contact. I am told that women know just by eye contact when a man is going to behave like a dick. Looking them in the eye dissaudes them


I have seen people (and been made to do it) with both arms behind my head, though I can't begin to work out how it was done. I hate having to think about what to do with my arms. It's been suggested that I do some sort of rolling the hands round each other (as in The Wheels on the Bus.....) as a style feature, which I think is an utterly naff idea, as well as making it even harder to coordinate..

Start in cross hand hold. Steptogether like you are going to do a Halleluah (I hate that move) but interleave the legs. The man leads both hands behind the womans head and lets go of them there. He then moves his hands so that his palms are on the womans shoulder blades with his fingers curling up and cupping her collar bones. There he stays. If the woman isn't going for it FOR ANY REASON then she just stands there and wiggles before stepping away and offering her hand. If she is going for it then she tilts her pelvis forward and up, comes up onto the balls of her feet and engagees a SMALL but definate amount of weight into the mans hands. The man will then smoothly start to sink into a squat (how deep is up to him) taking the woman down with his (to keep her pelvis engaged with his thigh) while reclining the woman into the layback. On the way she can keep her hands behind her head until fully up and either place them over tha mans head and onto his collar or just let then come forward and down as she offers her hand to the guy that has just stepped backwards.


I think if the move was being done by an expert leader and follower then it would be possible to do it with musicality. But I think it has to be absolutely fluent for it to be used well, and in my experience it isn't usually fluent enough. Also, my head is so full of all the above thoughts re technique that I don't even hear the music until it's over.

We all build up our abilities in layers. There are so many stages in learing a dance element. You learn the mechanics, the timing, the positioning, the lead in, the exit, you fit all the components together and dance them with a partner. You make the transitions between the elements smoother and as seamless as possible. When it feels like it is on autopilot you fit it too the music. Then you develop a bond between you and your partner so that you listen to a peice of music in the same way. The move, the music and you and your partner become as one.

Oh yeah. That's the buzz that we travel long distances to dances for. The elusive dance where everything is just perfect.

jivecat
2nd-July-2006, 11:09 AM
I think if the move was being done by an expert leader and follower then it would be possible to do it with musicality. But I think it has to be absolutely fluent for it to be used well, and in my experience it isn't usually fluent enough. Also, my head is so full of all the above thoughts re technique that I don't even hear the music until it's over.
It's very dark and lonely down in this deep hole.:flower:

ZW says clamp.
Chef says don't clamp.

:confused:

I do rather enjoy the clamping bit. Someone eventually said to me last night "You can let go now."




....she starts desparately clawing her way back upright and throwing her head and arms forward and you are desparately trying to rebalance this system before you both end up in a heap in the floor. Reminds me of my rock-climbing days. Ah!



...KEEP EYE CONTACT. By the look in your eyes he will know when you have done down enough and when you want to come back up unless he is a complete numb nuts. If he is a numb nuts he shouldn't be doing this move.
But, but.......what if he won't look at me? What if he IS a numbnuts?




I have found a good general rule is, If it feels like an effort then something, somewhere is going wrong. Sit down and think about it. Much better than doing it badly loads of times and wearing yourself out. Break the move down into small sections and work each bit out between you and then reassemble it and check that it all still works. If a woman tries to help herself out of drops or this layback I find it make the whole thing a lot of hard work for me.This rule doesn't really hold because by its very nature, dancing, particularly performance dancing, has to be effortful. The trick is hiding the effort.





I am not sure how he could MAKE you tip your head back. ..........Fix the guy wilh direct eye contact. I am told that women know just by eye contact when a man is going to behave like a dick. Looking them in the eye dissaudes themGood point. So, sometimes I collude by putting my own head back. At which point eye contact becomes physically impossible!



....
a Halleluah (I hate that move)Now there's an effort-free move, hence I rather like it!



but interleave the legs. Very delicately expressed.:grin:


The man will then smoothly start to sink into a squat (how deep is up to him) taking the woman down with his (to keep her pelvis engaged with his thigh) while reclining the woman into the layback.
Having thought a bit more carefully about the mechanics of this move last night I've realised that it is rare for my pelvis to come into direct contact with the leader's thigh - and I was trying fairly hard at times. There usually seems to be a chaste gap of a few inches. So the thigh clamping seems particularly necessary! But I'll keep trying.



We all build up our abilities in layers. There are so many stages in learing a dance element. You learn the mechanics, the timing, the positioning, the lead in, the exit, you fit all the components together and dance them with a partner. You make the transitions between the elements smoother and as seamless as possible. When it feels like it is on autopilot you fit it too the music. This seems to me to be the work of years, but worth doing. To return to the point about including laybacks in an intermediate musicality workshop - it would be better to use simpler, less demanding moves to develop the teaching points as the dancers' attention will then be free to focus on the musicality rather than the technique.




Oh yeah. That's the buzz that we travel long distances to dances for. The elusive dance where everything is just perfect.
The Holy Grail of dance!

David Franklin
2nd-July-2006, 12:16 PM
ZW says clamp.
Chef says don't clamp.

:confused: Try both and see which works best for you. With a lot of these moves, there's no real "right" way.


This rule doesn't really hold because by its very nature, dancing, particularly performance dancing, has to be effortful. The trick is hiding the effort.In context I would disagree with this, though it depends on what you mean by "effort". Any move where you are actively straining to make the move work will not only tend to look bad, but it will also take a lot out of you. Unless you're a lot fitter than I am, you're not going to be able to do that very often without completely running out of gas. I don't think we've ever done a routine where more than two moves were really effortful in that sense.

I don't think a basic layback should be effortful in the "straining" sense for a reasonably healthy and well-matched couple. Of course any move where you are trying to extend etc. to the maximum will require a certain amount of effort.


This seems to me to be the work of years, but worth doing. To return to the point about including laybacks in an intermediate musicality workshop - it would be better to use simpler, less demanding moves to develop the teaching points as the dancers' attention will then be free to focus on the musicality rather than the technique.:yeah: Trying to make the musicality work always has a danger of rushing the technique for the move. Trying to learn one of the more difficult drops at the same time seems a recipe for accidents.

Gus
2nd-July-2006, 03:52 PM
To return to the point about including laybacks in an intermediate musicality workshop - it would be better to use simpler, less demanding moves to develop the teaching points as the dancers' attention will then be free to focus on the musicality rather than the technique.The intent in using he layback in the Blues Improvers is that the move itself teaches how a slowly excecuted move can be used to meld into the feel of the music and convey real intimacy amd sexiness without having to be sleazy ... at least thats the target.

The variatiion where its executed at speed and swept round should (IMHO) only be taught under one on one guidenace ... the potential for getting it wrong is just too high

A risk averse little Gus ;)

David Bailey
2nd-July-2006, 06:05 PM
I do rather enjoy the clamping bit. Someone eventually said to me last night "You can let go now."
Clamping works for me :)

Re: Hallelujah move:

....Now there's an effort-free move, hence I rather like it!
I went through a period of looking down my nose at such a plebby move - about 5 years I reckon. Then a couple of years ago, I started re-using it. I like it, it's so basic and open that it has lots of potential - for example, leading ochos.

bigdjiver
2nd-July-2006, 06:30 PM
I very occasionally* do a 360 degree layback, where I rotate the lady in a complete circle in the layback position. For that a little clamping seems essential.
* in a corner, with plenty of space, with a partner up to, and up for, it, and the nearest dancers people you trust. For many partners is a "bungee" move. (Glad you experienced it once, glad you are not going to experience it twice.)

I use the halleluah a lot, and use it as a bit of symbolism - I am drawing a heart shape with my hands, and if I then pull the lady into a basket it symbolises "you have a place in my heart". (or I did a basket without thinking about it.)

David Franklin
2nd-July-2006, 06:45 PM
I very occasionally* do a 360 degree layback, where I rotate the lady in a complete circle in the layback position. For that a little clamping seems essential.
* in a corner, with plenty of space, with a partner up to, and up for, it, and the nearest dancers people you trust. We do a spinning layback variation*, but I think at this point you might as well treat the move as an aerial. In which case I don't believe any clamping is required - it is fairly easy to hold the girl in place, and this allows more freedom for leg positions.

* in a rehearsed cabaret or practise thereof, with a practised and prepared partner, way more space than you are likely to get on a social floor, and no need to worry about the dancers nearby.

Chef
2nd-July-2006, 08:25 PM
I very occasionally* do a 360 degree layback, where I rotate the lady in a complete circle in the layback position. For that a little clamping seems essential.

We have also used this move in a show called "The Big Love Show" where it was known as a Helicopter where we did three revolutions before return my now very confused partner to the upright position. There were only 7 couples on stage but the chance of collision was quite high and things had to be worked out carefully. Under Ninas watchful eye it all came good

To clamp or not to clamp? As has been said try both and see what works for you. We did and found that the clampning wouldn't allow Dawn to go to the horizontal position without hurting her back. So unclamped for us.

bigdjiver
2nd-July-2006, 09:20 PM
We have also used this move in a show called "The Big Love Show" ...I do not recall having been at "The big love show", but that proves little. Nigel and Nina having been an early inspiration I would have thought I would have recalled such an encounter. As far as I am aware I had not seen this move before I tried it, but that proves even less. People often unconciously recall things and think that they have invented them for themselves. I worry about a few of the lyrics that I have written. They seem too good to have come from me. I have had many such experiences with bosses, where I have told them something three or four times before they discover or invent it by themselves. I used to think this was a deliberate theft of credit, but have become convinced that often is genuinely them not really listening on a concious level. The "I'll let him witter on whilst I think of something really important" syndrome. It is a good feeling when you think that you have invented something for yourself, even if you are quite sure that someone must have invented it first.

Chef
2nd-July-2006, 09:32 PM
I do not recall having been at "The big love show", but that proves little. Nigel and Nina having been an early inspiration I would have thought I would have recalled such an encounter.

I have obviously gotten you confused with someone that was also in the show. Could I ask a moderator to remove my post where I got you both confused.

I first saw the move perfomed by two couples of australians during a routine to "sex bomb" at Camber about 2001. It wasn't until the show that I was taught it by Nigel and Nina and used it

Andreas
2nd-July-2006, 09:35 PM
Helicopter
That is also the name we use(d) in New Zealand for the rotational variation of the layback, essentially a 'Swayback' with a full turn or multiples rather than just a swoop.


To clamp or not to clamp? As has been said try both and see what works for you. We did and found that the clampning wouldn't allow Dawn to go to the horizontal position without hurting her back. So unclamped for us.
The clamp should really only be used if one of the partners is uncertain or balance goes off. Going into the move with the intention to clamp will, as Chef pointed out, hamper the move, it changes the dynamics. Having said that, if the lady has strong thighs, back and stomach muscles then clamping the guys leg actually allows her to do the move completely on her own. My former dance partner is living proof of that. :clap: :D

MartinHarper
2nd-July-2006, 11:41 PM
To return to the point about including laybacks in an intermediate musicality workshop - it would be better to use simpler, less demanding moves to develop the teaching points as the dancers' attention will then be free to focus on the musicality rather than the technique.

A good general point, I think. One teacher at a Ceroc weekender tried to teach a layback-thing in a "sabotage" class. That can't be a good idea.


The intent in using he layback in the Blues Improvers is that the move itself teaches how a slowly excecuted move can be used to meld into the feel of the music and convey real intimacy amd sexiness without having to be sleazy ... at least thats the target.

Seems to me that there are easier slow moves than a slow layback.