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Freya
26th-June-2006, 11:39 PM
After the Stirling Focus workshop (Thread Here) (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8868) which was absolutely fantastic a friend pointed out that there are few people who really focus on the theory behind the dance and how we do it! At the BFG there was also a few theory workshops, Franck's connection and a couple of musicality ones. Unfortunately I was unable to make the actual workshops at the BFG.

I feel that I have gained a lot just from the two hours spent messing about with connection and it has given me a lot to think about! Be prepared for me to want to practice and discuss tomorrow! However I wonder whether people really want to learn the theory as the class was very quiet! Perfect for teaching and attention but obviously not a way to bring in the big bucks! I would hate for these sorts of classes to disappear as I feel that if I'm going to really improve I have to really start thinking about how I'm dancing with my partner rather than just going through the moves!

But it would appear that Classes and workshops doing more interesting complicated moves are much better attended! Am I right in thinking that the way to move forward is to strike a balance between learning new moves and the theory. ie connection, musicality, style etc



So what I'd like to know is:

Is this Theory workshop common else where?
Do people find them useful?
Would people prefer to learn New moves rather than the theory?
What is more useful as a dancer?
What else should I focus on when thinking about theory?
is there a point at which you should start looking at the theory or is the earlier the better?


Ok My ramble over! I'm sorry if I haven't expressed myself very well but I hope you get the jist!

PS I bet there are other threads that this has been discussed on!

Yogi_Bear
26th-June-2006, 11:52 PM
After the Stirling Focus workshop (Thread Here) (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8868) which was absolutely fantastic a friend pointed out that there are few people who really focus on the theory behind the dance and how we do it! At the BFG there was also a few theory workshops, Franck's connection and a couple of musicality ones. Unfortunately I was unable to make the actual workshops at the BFG.

I feel that I have gained a lot just from the two hours spent messing about with connection and it has given me a lot to think about! Be prepared for me to want to practice and discuss tomorrow! However I wonder whether people really want to learn the theory as the class was very quiet! Perfect for teaching and attention but obviously not a way to bring in the big bucks! I would hate for these sorts of classes to disappear as I feel that if I'm going to really improve I have to really start thinking about how I'm dancing with my partner rather than just going through the moves!

But it would appear that Classes and workshops doing more interesting complicated moves are much better attended! Am I right in thinking that the way to move forward is to strike a balance between learning new moves and the theory. ie connection, musicality, style etc



So what I'd like to know is:

Is this Theory workshop common else where?
Do people find them useful?
Would people prefer to learn New moves rather than the theory?
What is more useful as a dancer?
What else should I focus on when thinking about theory?
is there a point at which you should start looking at the theory or is the earlier the better?


Ok My ramble over! I'm sorry if I haven't expressed myself very well but I hope you get the jist!

PS I bet there are other threads that this has been discussed on!

A good question. There comes a point, and this will vary between individuals, where you feel the need to spend less time learning new moves to add to the repertoire of leading or following, and more time instead learning about the theory, shall we say. In other words how to actually put these moves into practice and dance properly rather than just produce moves with nothing behind them. For many dancers, for whom Mj is mainly a social activity (and because of the move based teaching, the references to how many hundred moves are in the books) move acquisition will long remain the goal.

Which is more useful depends. I know I would rather know a few moves well and have a really good grounding in theory than the other way round. But in the short term the focus on moves does seem to be popular, retains new dancers, and allows them to decide whether they want to develop technically or just dance socially.

Freya
27th-June-2006, 12:10 AM
A good question. There comes a point, and this will vary between individuals, where you feel the need to spend less time learning new moves to add to the repertoire of leading or following, and more time instead learning about the theory, shall we say. In other words how to actually put these moves into practice and dance properly rather than just produce moves with nothing behind them. For many dancers, for whom Mj is mainly a social activity (and because of the move based teaching, the references to how many hundred moves are in the books) move acquisition will long remain the goal. I've only been dancing for 6 months so I'm still enjoying learning new moves and I hope I always will. I realise that I will always be learning new things and new moves will develope over time! But I feel that I have already reached a stage that I really need to have a balance between theory and moves! At present I feel that MJ is very much a social thing but recently been considering that in the future I may wish to take things a bit further.


Which is more useful depends. I know I would rather know a few moves well and have a really good grounding in theory than the other way round. But in the short term the focus on moves does seem to be popular, retains new dancers, and allows them to decide whether they want to develop technically or just dance socially. To be honest I agree with you. I prefer to dance with leaders who can do a few moves really well than those who put you through lots of different complicated moves that I don't have a clue and isn't in the mood of the dance! It does seam to be a good system that allows people to choose how they want to dance!

LMC
27th-June-2006, 12:35 AM
So what I'd like to know is:

- copied down there:


Is this Theory workshop common else where?
Unfortunately not :( - never come across them anywhere except Scotland and am tempted to emigrate.

Do people find them useful?
YES

Would people prefer to learn New moves rather than the theory?
NO - but then I'm a follower, I don't need to know moves :innocent: . As a leader, yes, I do want and need to learn more moves, but still not at the expense of theory - even as basic a lead as I am has worked out how to adapt some moves/break them up.

What is more useful as a dancer?
Some of each needed, particularly in more 'rigid' styles like ballroom.

What else should I focus on when thinking about theory?
Nothing. Think about less theory all at once as well (sez I :rofl: - I frequently find myself 'overthinking' and it doesn't help!)

is there a point at which you should start looking at the theory or is the earlier the better?
The earlier the better IMO. But not too much all at once and best to try to avoid jargon - there are several discussions on how to "deliver" theory on here, which I am too tired to dig out right now...

Gadget
27th-June-2006, 07:31 AM
Don't have time to explore my thoughts, but "Theory" is only really for those passionate about dancing and should only be introduced once people start questioning. Other than that, for beginners and those just wanting to get on and dance, just knowledge of the "how" rather than the "why" should be enough.

Of course, some "why" may help explain the "how", but pure theory and 'excercises' would scare off/bore a lot of new starts and the masses that Ceroc targets IMHO.

What is the difference between "Theory" and "Technique"? isn't technique the application of theory? If so, shouldn't "Technique" be more important than "theory"? Isn't technique "How" to do moves? So dosn't the current move based workshop cover that? :whistle:

Beowulf
27th-June-2006, 08:45 AM
Don't have time to explore my thoughts

Wise move gadget.. knowing how your mind works you'd probably get lost. End up in some subterranean cave in the darkest deepest recesses of your ID :wink:

As to Freya's Question, as a beginner I don't have the number of moves needed to build up my "base of operations" but I would think that once I have mastered (haha oh sorry.. like that'll ever happen) the basic moves the sheer quantity of Intermediate/ advanced moves out there would need something other than learning them monkey see monkey do.

Once someone has a good grasp of the basic fundamentals (I'm Fun and Mental) I think a Theory workshop could do nothing but benefit the people that attend.

it's not enough to know HOW moves go together.. but WHY moves go together, WHEN moves shouldn't be used together and WHERE there are opportunities for a little "creative licence" (looks at Gadgets dancing.. so basically then you apply creative licence from the very start to the very end of the dance right?? ;) )

I for one, when of a sufficient level of expertise , would consider attending a theory class.

Piglet
27th-June-2006, 08:54 AM
However I wonder whether people really want to learn the theory as the class was very quiet!
At first I thought you meant that we as folk were too quiet :rolleyes:
Got to say that was the quietest one I've ever been to - maybe its cos we advertised us lot were going? :rofl:

I really enjoy them and even though I've heard some of it before - I always find there's something new for me to take on board and even if its only one piece of information I feel it was worth the money - and got to say its cheap at the price really (though I'm not saying I want to pay more either :na: ) Mind you, I enjoy any workshop - think I'm a workshop addict:rolleyes:

straycat
27th-June-2006, 09:05 AM
I think theory, great though it is, is, as Gadget says, wanted by a minority. For myself, a theory workshop is fascinating, but needs practical application if I'm to benefit from it. I learn best by immersion - the first time I did an N&N breaks / hesitations class, Nigel did a half-hour talk at the beginning about anticipating breaks. The only reason the theory stuck with me was because (as I realised later) - I already used and anticipated the breaks without thinking about it. If I didn't, I don't think I'd have gotten half as much from the class.

What I think there should definitely be more of... is rather than moves, or theory, is lessons about technique - about raw dance. At weekenders and so on, the classes I'll always go for are things like hip-hop or jazz steps etc - moves I can get (and forget) anywhere, but learning how to move - is way harder.

One of the best classes I've ever done, for example, had us simply walking across the room and back in lots of different ways. Continually. For an hour and a half. To the same piece of music. We were being taught to establish a connection between the floor, the music, and ourselves - and it was HARD - but so rewarding.

Other great ones have focussed on connection with your partner - and in MJ, if you have that, and can simply dance, you don't need moves. :cool:

I know this seems to have strayed somewhat off-topic, but to me, the theory and the moves both come on top of technique.
The reason we focus on moves to start with, is because newcomers need something to keep them coming.

So -

Are theory workshops useful? Yes, but mainly as reinforcement of technique.
Would people prefer new moves? Far too often, they value new moves above everything :confused:
What is more useful? Technique technique technique :cool:

IHMO

tsh
27th-June-2006, 09:46 AM
I think I'd agree with the thoughts above that suggest that 'just theory' is a topic which will only appeal to a fraction of MJ dancers. Spending a whole day exploring frame/connection/balance etc. is valuable, but only really apples to people who want to learn - probably because they have reached a point where they can see that their dancing is limited by some of these issues.

MJ seems quite well suited to teaching theory in the way that I've seen technical items introduced in Lindy classes (these classes tend to be smaller - but I've seen Ceroc classes taught with some of the same ideas). A move is taught which allows a specific technical exersise to be practiced after the move has been tried - then going back to the move after the exersise proves that the theory does make moves easier.

The disadvantage to this is that unless the technical part is very simple (e.g. take smaller steps - the sort of things mentioned by the good ceroc teachers) then it becomes something which needs to be tried in rotation with 3/4 different partners, and this takes as much time as could be used in teaching another move.

I'm not sure that ceroc is ready for this style of teaching en-masse. There are many times I've seen moves taught where things I feel are important are not mentioned (either safety issues, e.g. ceroc spin - or positioning/balance in some moves). Either the teachers don't care, or they believe the punters won't listen (maybe because they have been shown that nothing of interest is said in the class).

It isn't clear to me it if is better to try and add more technique to the existing formats first, or to try and set aside 10 minutes of a class for technique. The latter could be less effective - but it gives the message that 'we think this is important'. The very good teachers seem to be able to use the existing format very effectively. I've also encountered teachers giving misleading technical info as well (harsh leading, stiring on returns, relaxing the frame in anticipation) and not being aware that they are not being helpfull.

Then again, maybe we are wasting our time - if there has been a decision by Ceroc to avoid teaching specific things (like footwork, or a decent arm tension) so they can say 'it's easier than salsa, there's no footwork' or 'Semi-C to the left'.

Sean

Chef
27th-June-2006, 10:09 AM
My first experiences of theory lessons occured at small weekenders and I attended them because there were no other lessons at that time that I really wanted to do and my curiosity got the better of me.

It was like a veil had been lifted from my eyes. For the first time I understood why things hadn't been working for the last three years. Sure I had hundreds of moves written down on index cards but I couldn't execute a single one of them properly.

I started seeking out more of these theory workshops. This is what seems to happen. People chance upon them and then start seeking them out. I now spend a fair amount of time going backwards and working on my dance foundations and I never feel that it is time wasted.

For those that want theory lessons they are utterly invaluable but regretably they are hard to find. The reason that they are hard to find is that most people are not interested in theory classes and so there is not enough demand for teachers to put them on the programme.

A few months back I sitting at a venue with a friend that I had known for all the time that I had been dancing. We were both watching Nigel Anderson dancing with a lady who was just a normal dancer but the dance looked great. My friend said to me "He is just using simple moves but he just understands the music and fits everything to it. How does he do that?". I remarked that Nigel and Nina do a number of classes and music theory and musicality was one of them and perhaps he should look out for the next time they do it. Fireind then said "I went to that class at a weekender and we were sitting around for 10 minutes talking about the structure of music and not teaching any moves so I walked out". Words failed me for a while. Then I said that perhaps that is why Nigel can dance to the music and he can't.

For most people modern jive is a relaxing, fun, release from their working lives where they have to work hard all day, making decisions and keeping up. Most people don't want to work that hard at dancing in free time. I can understand that. So for those that want them I think IMO that theory lessons are great but their limited appeal means that you have to hunt them out (or get a group of like minded individuals together and engage the teachers you need on the subject you need).

Twirly
27th-June-2006, 10:10 AM
Forgive me if this seems dense as I've not done a theory workshop - but can't the theory be incorporated into teaching some moves simultaneously? You cover both bases that way and keep everyone interested, and people are more likely to retain what they have learnt.

There seems, form my reading of various threads on the forum since I’ve joined, to be an issue surrounding the idea that dancers who take things more seriously would like one thing, whilst the great mass of social dancers want something else, generally less specialised. Yet we all dance with each other, so isn’t it to everyone’s benefit to get the general level raised? So getting teachers to slip a bit of theory into everyday classes, or theory into workshops at the beginners to intermediate level would help enormously by giving everyone a good foundation. But it wouldn’t put those people off who think the idea of a theory class/workshop sounds a bit dry.

straycat
27th-June-2006, 10:44 AM
A few months back I sitting at a venue with a friend that I had known for all the time that I had been dancing. We were both watching Nigel Anderson dancing with a lady who was just a normal dancer but the dance looked great. My friend said to me "He is just using simple moves but he just understands the music and fits everything to it. How does he do that?". I remarked that Nigel and Nina do a number of classes and music theory and musicality was one of them and perhaps he should look out for the next time they do it. Fireind then said "I went to that class at a weekender and we were sitting around for 10 minutes talking about the structure of music and not teaching any moves so I walked out". Words failed me for a while. Then I said that perhaps that is why Nigel can dance to the music and he can't.

Nigel, of course, is (amongst other things) a musician, so is in a very good position to be teaching this stuff, and the musical understanding that he has is glaringly evident in his dancing. I think you've put your finger on it though - your friend's attitude is far far too common :sad:

Off on a vaguely related tangent. I saw an interview with one of the Pixar founders once, and he talked about their first short film - the one about the desk-lamps - Luxo Jr (http://www.pixar.com/shorts/ljr/). When it came out, people were struck by how ... human these lamps were made to seem, compared to most other computer animation efforts up to that point, and people kept asking them what software they used to create it. The answer was simple - the same software as everyone else, but Pixar were simply animators first, and computer people second.
And so it is with MJ - the majority MJ pundits are not dancers. Many of the top MJ teachers, (eg Nina, Amir) have a great deal of formal dance training to draw upon, and it shows. Some have natural talent, which they draw upon. Some explore other disciplines - there's lots of routes to dance. Just learning loads of MJ moves won't do that for you though, and a lot of people like your friend don't realise that, and dismiss anything else - they look at someone like Nigel, or Victor, say 'wow - he knows some great moves' - and not see what they're doing which makes their dancing so special.

The problem is that in order to draw people in in the first place, you need to give people something they can do instantly - hence the move-based beginning. The only way you'll get people en masse used to the idea of learning technique and theory, I think, is to do as Twirly says - bring it in constantly as a small but integral part of regular classes. Do that enough (and do it right), and think people will start to see the possiblilities, and want more.

Stray

Franck
27th-June-2006, 11:03 AM
Forgive me if this seems dense as I've not done a theory workshop - but can't the theory be incorporated into teaching some moves simultaneously? You cover both bases that way and keep everyone interested, and people are more likely to retain what they have learnt.Theory should be incorporated in every class (Beginners, Intermediate, Fun, etc...) but there is only so much you can add to a 30/45 minutes class.
Over the last few years, I have tried to pick a specific theme for my regular Intermediate classes (e.g. conserving and using momentum, controlling turns, using the slot, leverage or compression, and many more...) this is great and pleases people who aren't ready for technique but want to learn new moves as well as giving extra help to those who have enough moves but want to lead / follow better.

The reason I started the Focus workshops is that I became aware of the depths technique / theory could take me to, and as my enthusiasm grew, I had to share all that stuff. As a result, rather than teaching a 'Style workshop' or an 'Advanced workshop' that covered everything and anything, I started focusing on very narrow subjects.

Recent topics have included: unusual hand-holds (useful for controlling the connection and separating it from the lead); Slotted dancing (using and understanding the slot to create special effects); Spins & Turns (exploring techniques to control turns and spins); Footwork: Triple steps; Musicality: Understanding the beat; Hi-jacking the connection (great for ladies who want to add their own thing); Connection (establishing a continuous connection); Walking the walk (learning how to walk and how to lead walks) and many more...

These workshops are not targeted at advanced dancers and often beginners attend them. The only requirements are that people want to learn. The results in everyone who's ever attended have been spectacular, and made a real difference to their dancing.
Last Sunday was one of the quieter workshops, but all the previous ones were well attended, so I don't think there's a lack of interest. Sunday was simply too sunny (and there was an England match) for many people.

Learning technique and theory is invaluable in my opinion and has made a huge difference to the teachers I seek to teach in Scotland (for the Beach Ballrooms, Blaze and other week-enders). I have also found that preparing regular focus classes has helped me as a teacher for my regular classes and transformed my dancing, so overall, has been a great investment.

Dancers want to learn technique, and more and more teachers are picking up the gauntlet! :clap:

Chef
27th-June-2006, 11:11 AM
Forgive me if this seems dense as I've not done a theory workshop - but can't the theory be incorporated into teaching some moves simultaneously? You cover both bases that way and keep everyone interested, and people are more likely to retain what they have learnt.


No you don't sound dense. Asking any question to which you don't know the answer to is never a silly thing to do. I just hope that my answer will make things clear rather than more confusing.

All of the theory classes that I have been to have have used practice to reinforce the knowledge that has just been imparted. Often the movement that has been used to do this has been extremely simple so that the technique has been the focus of the class rather than the move being the focus of the class.



As an example.

A class on hitting breaks and accent points firstly taught the structure of the music so that if you heard the first break in a peice of music you know know where the next one would be but that there were no breaks in the intrumental section in the middle of a song (called a middle 8). Then you were taught the little musical clues that warn you that a break was coming and those that indicate the music was going to restart at the end of the break. Once that theory was laid down then you were given some short and simple moves to be able to use to move towards a break and then given time to practice sensing and arriving at the breaks using these simple moves.

The next thing was to show you how to extend a move if you were going to be early into a break or how to shorten a move if you were going to be late.

In general the moves used in theory classes are very simple so that the dancers are not overloaded with a complicated routine AND the theory at the same time. The theory is the important payload of the lesson NOT the moves/sequence.

I think this is why theory within a moves/routine class always seems to be just lost because it just overloads people. Coupled to that the theory classes are usually attended by people that WANT to hear. Most often when I have heard extremely useful nuggets of theory dished out in normal classes the general response has been that people either chat to their partner or start bitching to each other that they wish the teacher would stop chatting and get on with the next move or get to the freestyle.

If only 5% of the class are taking note of the technique points then who do they have to practice with? There is no point a dancer trying to learn about hitting breaks if 9 out of 10 of their partners charge straight through them.

The only regular theory classes that I know about are those run by Franck in Scotland. I wish they were much more widespread and can only see them and the dancers that benefit from them upping the game in general.

Twirly
27th-June-2006, 11:53 AM
*feels a trip to Scotland coming on*

ducasi
27th-June-2006, 11:57 AM
Franck is really good at incorporating aspect of technique and theory into his normal Ceroc class nights, so that when I started going to his "Focus On..." workshops, from what I can remember (and referring back to my blog) it didn't seem like such a novelty...

I've said on my blog how at the BFG I realised that move-based workshops weren't particularly useful to me – I learn a few moves over an hour, and then forget them all again over the next hour...

I think that I'd find them more useful if I had a partner to practice them with afterwards, oh, and some motivation to widening my range of moves, like a competition.

As for the low attendance – it takes a certain kind of person to travel across Scotland on a sunny Sunday lunchtime to go to a workshop.

But yeah, if you just want to learn to dance without having to think, then these mostly theory classes are not for you.


So what I'd like to know is:


Is this Theory workshop common else where?

Don't know... doesn't seem so...


Do people find them useful?

Definitely.


Would people prefer to learn New moves rather than the theory?

At the moment, I'm not looking to learn new moves, but I am keen to improve my technique and style.


What is more useful as a dancer?

Difficult to say... Both are needed.


What else should I focus on when thinking about theory?

There's so many aspects of dancing beyond moves to think about... Musicality, style, connection, balance, presence and posture...


Is there a point at which you should start looking at the theory or is the earlier the better?

From my very first class in Ceroc when the teacher did a wee tutorial on spinning for the beginner girls, I have seen theory being taught. Just teaching moves doesn't make folks into dancers.




PS I bet there are other threads that this has been discussed on! And I bet it doesn't matter!


Oh – I've just seen Franck's reply. :yeah: :worthy:

Tiggerbabe
27th-June-2006, 12:23 PM
*feels a trip to Scotland coming on*
We have a twice-yearly "Focus Catch-Up" weekend, next one is in October. A great weekend with (2 nights) Dinner (and the food is FAB in the hotel :drool: ), Bed & Breakfast all included for £99 (or £89 for early bookers).

Franck teaches three 2 hour workshops and we have 2 parties and a tea-dance over the weekend. Plus we can dance/stay up as late as we like as we book the whole hotel, it helps that the owner is a party animal too :wink:

Yogi_Bear
27th-June-2006, 12:28 PM
We have a twice-yearly "Focus Catch-Up" weekend, next one is in October. A great weekend with (2 nights) Dinner (and the food is FAB in the hotel :drool: ), Bed & Breakfast all included for £99 (or £89 for early bookers).

Franck teaches three 2 hour workshops and we have 2 parties and a tea-dance over the weekend. Plus we can dance/stay up as late as we like as we book the whole hotel, it helps that the owner is a party animal too :wink:
Sounds good, do you have all the details finalised yet?

DavidB
27th-June-2006, 12:35 PM
As well as the market for theory classes, you also have to consider how difficult they are for the teacher.

There are no organisations running advanced MJ courses for teachers where they can learn what theory to teach. There is no syllabus, no book to read, and no-one to ask. The teachers have to work out the theory first before they can teach it.

It is very hard to gauge how much material to prepare. In a regular moves class the major decision is 3 moves or 4, and may take 10 minutes to decide and rehearse the moves. But a theory workshop can be 2 pages of notes or 10, and can take 20 hours to prepare.

They are harder to teach than a normal class. There isn't a script to follow. You are almost certain to get asked questions that you have never thought of before.

It is also hard to think of ideas once you have covered lead/follow and musicality.


However they are becoming more widespread. Franck certainly led the way, but other franchises and organisations are starting to follow. Ceroc Oxford are running a day of workshops this weekend, and the majority of the workshops are theory/technique based. Rock Bottoms had had a few, as have Trinity Leroc in Bristol. (I've not seen any at the big weekenders, but I haven't been to many recently.)

Franck
27th-June-2006, 12:52 PM
There are no organisations running advanced MJ courses for teachers where they can learn what theory to teach. There is no syllabus, no book to read, and no-one to ask. The teachers have to work out the theory first before they can teach it.Sadly this is true and over the last few years, I have learnt much of what I teach from you and other teachers I invited to teach in Scotland. I have also searched the web for tutorials, videos and DVDs focusing on technique rather than flash moves, so I owe a huge debt of gratitude to all teachers (in all dance forms: Ballroom, West Coast Swing, Ballet, Lindy hop, tango, etc...) who took the time to share their experience and expertise.

I mentioned that things were changing, and I'm glad to see this is your experience too in the rest of the U.K.
Certainly, the feedback at Storm and Southport confirmed my instinct that more and more people would gravitate towards the roots of dancing rather than just moves.

Finally, Ceroc is moving forward in providing 'Advanced MJ courses for teachers' this started by bringing outside experts to share their wisdom at teachers updates, and I should be teaching Focus topics to Ceroc teachers in the near future, with a view to spread out the knowledge in all Ceroc areas! :waycool:

Tiggerbabe
27th-June-2006, 12:58 PM
Sounds good, do you have all the details finalised yet?
The workshops have a limit of 20 couples (those staying in the hotel). We open the parties to anyone and last time we had people from as far away as Inverness, as well as Brechin, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Perth, Stirling and Aberdeen (which are much closer :wink: ).
You get dinner on Friday and Saturday night with breakfast Saturday and Sunday. Here (http://www.royaljubileearms.com/) is the homepage for the hotel.

• The workshops Franck will be teaching on the 20th/22nd October are as follows:

- Connection: Separating the connection from the lead to create a smoother and more together feel to the dance and to allow subtle body leads.

- Footwork: Sweeps and Slides. Adding impressive sweeps and slides to your dancing, by using good connection and frame to perform seemingly impossible effects.

- Dancing patterns: Combining slotted dancing, circular patterns and various hybrids to use the dance floor optimally. Controlling the patterns you and your partner draw on the floor will improve your lead & follow as well as adding stylish precision to your dancing.

We are already half-full :clap: so anyone thinking about it, get your skates on :D

Twirly
27th-June-2006, 01:05 PM
You say couples - does that mean you have to come as a matched pair or male and female?

Which weekend is it?

Franck
27th-June-2006, 01:10 PM
You say couples - does that mean you have to come as a matched pair or male and female?

Which weekend is it?
The next Focus Week-ender is on 20th/22nd October.

You don't need to book as a couple and we rotate partners during the workshops. However single women need to book very soon as we have just suspended female bookings (started a waiting list) until more men get their act together and book!

It would be great to see more visitors from 'abroad' :wink:

johnthehappyguy
27th-June-2006, 01:36 PM
Got to say that was the quietest one I've ever been to - maybe its cos we advertised us lot were going? :rofl:
Unfortunately it was not very well promoted at local classes the week before.

Two venues I attended last week and it was not mentioned.

A friend asked a teacher at another venue last week and she was told that she would need to book up.:sad: hence she did not go to the workshop, and just came for the freestyle.


John

Paul F
27th-June-2006, 02:02 PM
Apologies but I havnt read through all the other posts. There are only so many hours in the day.

Its a good question and is one I have asked myself a lot.

A while ago I put together a course description for classes I would like to teach. This centred around dance theory including the physical aspects as well as theroy taken from many different dance backgrounds. I worked with some great teachers in the fields of contemporary, ballet, salsa, ballroom/latin and modern line to try and get an idea of what they considered dance theory encapsulated (not easy to define)

I wanted, ultimately, to run a course that brought together a 'concensus' if you like. The course would be cumulative in nature but would look at a range of technique and imagery.

Guess what - Never happened.
I have a course brief, a detailed run down of all the points I would like to use but, with one thing and another, I never followed it up :rolleyes:
Whether there would be call for it or not was a secondary concern for me really as I never expected to make money from it. I just wanted to take things up a notch. Its useful and interesting stuff and is not something you can just go to a website and read so I assumed at least a few people would be interested. Then there's the whole marketing thing.

I did make a first attempt at reducing the ambiguity and making it fit for group workshops eg. for use in MJ but, again, I never followed it up. The decision I came to was that there would be no call for it in MJ :sad:


edit-----
I have even been asking dancers here what they consider to be important in Indian dancing. Amazing how different dancing is at different places in the world.

Franck
27th-June-2006, 02:10 PM
The decision I came to was that there would be no call for it in MJ :sad:I took the opposite view, and the more I do it, the more call there seems to be.

Financially, it has not been a success, and indeed I have lost money on pretty much all my classes to date, but I always saw them as an investment:

- An investment in the dancers interested enough to progress and improve. This has resulted in big and subtle changes in the level of dancing and generally in the breadth of music we can play with.

- An investment in my own expertise as a teacher as every workshop I prepared forced me to question assumptions and improve my understanding of dancing. Without the deadline of a 2 hour workshop to teach, I would never have spent the hours of research and practise to understand a specific topic better.

Finally, after just under a year of Focus workshops (and 3 or 4 years of great teachers visiting Scotland and sharing their knowledge and wisdom) I can see the tide changing, and a genuine market emerging, for regular nights, workshops and large week-enders, so it looks like my investment is starting to pay off!

Paul F
27th-June-2006, 02:20 PM
I took the opposite view, and the more I do it, the more call there seems to be.


Thats great news.
It does sound like its going well. Not sure how much impact I could have on my own though without a source of dancers. :(

Its kind of strange the way I thought of it. Rather than a workshop as such my original plan was to do a 'jam' session so to speak. This way I wouldnt be much of a teacher but rather someone who just passes on knowledge and we all work together to try and use it as some of the stuff is pretty random !

straycat
27th-June-2006, 03:00 PM
I took the opposite view, and the more I do it, the more call there seems to be.

Financially, it has not been a success, and indeed I have lost money on pretty much all my classes to date, but I always saw them as an investment:
:respect: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :respect:

Freya
29th-June-2006, 08:58 PM
Wow what a great respose! :clap:You've all given me a great deal to think about!

I have been trying to lead in the beginner classes for the last couple of months or so because I have gotten fed up of waiting in line with so many other women! I then progressed to doing freestyle more and more especially when going out after classes. I think that this has really progressed my lead so as I can do basic moves but the technique or theory has taken me a while to get and it's just recently that I've felt that I can actually do the moves with any sort of competancy! But this week I decided that it was maybe time to try an intermediate class again! (I did one a month ago and was truly terrible!) Well I got it! I did both Tuesday and Wednesday classes as a lead! Both Classes had one move that I wasn't really getting to start with! But with a wee bit of help (thanx gadget) I got Them!

Ok so enough yeahy me! My point is that Both Lisa and Emma possibly taught a bit about Technique in their classes! But I don't remember I was concentrating too hard on not getting myself and my partner tied in knots. Maybe when I become better at the intermediate move's I'll be able to pick up on the theory/technique taught in regualr classes! This is where I'm thinking that the Focus workshops would come in! If there are no new moves being taught I can focus on the technique with moves that I know well and can lead!


There are no organisations running advanced MJ courses for teachers where they can learn what theory to teach. There is no syllabus, no book to read, and no-one to ask. The teachers have to work out the theory first before they can teach it.

I have the upmost respect to Franck because before the workshop and this thread I never really considered how dificult it would actually be to teach theory as I presumed (obviously wrongly) that all teachers get taught it just some are better at others at teaching it to others just like some people are better at teaching complicatd moves!



Its kind of strange the way I thought of it. Rather than a workshop as such my original plan was to do a 'jam' session so to speak. This way I wouldnt be much of a teacher but rather someone who just passes on knowledge and we all work together to try and use it as some of the stuff is pretty random !

This sounds like a great idea and at certain points on sunday this sort of "teaching" was incorporated in Francks class!