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killingtime
21st-June-2006, 04:37 PM
There was recently a suggestion at a venue of an improvers' class. That is a class that would (presumably) run at the same time as the intermediate that concentrated on the fundamental intermediate moves (such as the Pretzel, Hatchback, Neckbreak etc.).

This was brought up because it looks like some people are struggling with the complexity of the variants of these moves you tend to learn at the Intermediate class. Obviously a simpler routine could be taught but then those that feel they are beyond that stage probably would be wondering why such "simple" moves were being taught. By creating another class you'd have time to focus on getting these moves right and that would probably help in the Intermediate class where you find the moves stem from beginner moves and these ones.

I expect part of the problem with this is you couldn't have taxi dancers teach it and therefore you'd need a qualified Ceroc teacher instead. It also means that you'd need three rooms (Beginner Revision, Improver, Intermediate) but it might also mean that the improver room could be also used to mention technique (such as spinning and lead/follow relationship) in greater detail. It would probably be aimed at people who have been going 6-12 weeks or maybe just until they felt they were ready to proceed.

I was wondering what others thought on this?

Twirly
21st-June-2006, 05:00 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap:

I would LOVE this! In fact, myself and any man I know who has been doing Ceroc for less than a year gets fed up with getting tangled up in complex intermediate moves that they have not a hope in hell of remembering and using on the dancefloor in freestyle. :tears:

In beginners you get to go over the same moves several times before you're let loose in the intermediates - the intermediate moves are alot more complicated and there are vastly more of them, yet you only do them once.

I've done the intermediate 1 workshop (doing number 2 on Sunday :grin: ) and I can remember very little - ran into someone at Chimes recently and we eventually figured out that we recognised each other from the number 1 workshop. I was most embarrassed when he did a move we'd learnt there, but because no guy has done it with me for several months, I got all confused (sort of followed it, but not as neatly as I could have done if it had been more familiar). He'd been able to practise, I hadn't.

To get around the logistics KT, why not run the improvers class after the normal intermediates in the same place that the beginners review class takes place? The teacher could run it, and it could be done in the same way that the beginners do it - a recommended number of weeks to get you up to speed.

Brilliant idea. :worthy:

Beowulf
21st-June-2006, 05:12 PM
well I'm not ready for intermediate classes yet but when I am I think that would be a brilliant idea!

am a little worried about the move entitled "Neckbreak" though.. I mean trying to remember 19 or beginner moves is bad enough but 600+ intermediate/advanced moves? I don't stand a whelks chance in a supernova of remembering them without revision.

LMC
21st-June-2006, 05:24 PM
I *thought* that the general idea of Ceroc is that every intermediate class should include one intermediate "basic" move as well as 2/3 other ones? - so over the course of several weeks you should learn a basic neckbreak, pretzel, hatchback, others?

As someone who has relatively recently started to lead in intermediate classes, I pick one to remember and ditch the other two. With the advantage of being able to nab one of the good men and say "I did that class as a lead, please would you mind leading it on me so I can see how the moves are from the follower's POV?" I try to pick the move which feels smoothest for me as a leader AND as a follower. I think I'm going to have to start writing moves down too.

Don't be afraid to adapt or do part moves - you might well find that one "position" of an intermediate move lends itself to continuing with part of a beginner's move for instance. One of the first intermediate moves I was taught was a yo-yo/catapault variation: I use the first bit but have real problems leading the second bit - so I "forgot" it and just finish the move like a normal catapault.

Smooth is more important than variety for a follower - we dance with enough different guys in an evening that we won't be getting bored with you. I can relate to leads getting bored with themselves though - I do :( . Even so, it's more important to "fix" moves slowly and surely, rather than being able to lead lots of moves badly. Please :flower:

Oh yeah, improvers classes - I would hope that techniques (like not gripping/yanking/a bit of frame-tension/spinning) would be taught in beginners' review classes - I certainly cover them when I'm taxi-ing - although not all in the same review class! After 6 weeks, bad habits tend to be more ingrained, better to catch 'em before they can start.

Perhaps teachers and demos could practise the intermediate routine BEFORE the beginners' class starts (rather than in the interval between beginners' and intermediates as so many seem to), then 10 minutes of the 15 minute freestyle interval could be used for Improvers to learn one or two 'basic' intermediate moves :nice:

Twirly
21st-June-2006, 05:34 PM
I *thought* that the general idea of Ceroc is that every intermediate class should include one intermediate "basic" move as well as 2/3 other ones? - so over the course of several weeks you should learn a basic neckbreak, pretzel, hatchback, others?

I understand that to be true, but don't think it always happens, and with so many different intermediate moves, unless it's pointed out and repeated in the weeks afterwards, how are we to know that it's a basic intermediate move? :confused:

I do ask the guys who are my sort of level if we can practise what we've learnt in class during freestyle, and sometimes we do and that helps. But it's not me that needs to remember the moves - I feel very sorry for the men sometimes. :worthy:

killingtime
21st-June-2006, 05:42 PM
I *thought* that the general idea of Ceroc is that every intermediate class should include one intermediate "basic" move as well as 2/3 other ones? - so over the course of several weeks you should learn a basic neckbreak, pretzel, hatchback, others?

Err that might well be case but I think it was forgotten about in Edinburgh. I suppose that the issue with that is if the other two moves are too difficult for some people in the class then the teacher might need to really slow down the class (or the teacher could teach simpler moves, I guess). Maybe those people weren't really ready for the intermediate class (I certainly don't think I was when I started doing intermediate) and perhaps having another tier would help get them ready for that class?

Also the comment before the intermediate class here is normally "if you've been coming 6 weeks or less you can go to the beginners class..." which maybe leads people to the intermediate class even if they don't think they are ready (like you feel that otherwise you are just being a slow learner). As you have mentioned followers tend to prefer a lead who can lead four moves well than sixteen moves badly and perhaps if people felt they weren't doing something wrong by staying in beginners then they would.

As to remembering bits of moves I whole hearted recommend it to anyone. I tend to remember moves in much smaller chunks than they are taught which, as a nice side effect, makes it easier for me think of all the options available to me from a given position.

ducasi
21st-June-2006, 05:46 PM
I think there's two things an improver will want or need to learn (talking as a lead here...)

The "classic" intermediate moves that so many other moves are based on.
Simple variations on the beginners' moves.

But then I believe that the current Ceroc model includes both a classic intermediate move, plus a variation on a beginners' move in every intermediate class. Or is that just in Scotland?*


... how are we to know that it's a basic intermediate move? Round these parts, its by the teacher saying "... and this is your classic intermediate move for tonight ...". :)

I don't know if this format was in place when I first started intermediate classes... At the time I thought an improvers' class would be useful, but now I'm not so sure...

* Scotland is this case doesn't include Edinburgh. :wink:

LMC
21st-June-2006, 05:56 PM
I think there's two things an improver will want or need to learn (talking as a lead here...)

The "classic" intermediate moves that so many other moves are based on.
Simple variations on the beginners' moves.

But then I believe that the current Ceroc model includes both a classic intermediate move, plus a variation on a beginners' move in every intermediate class. Or is that just in Scotland?*
That's what I thought the official Ceroc model said too, but didn't have the detail - thanks ducasi. None of the classes I've been to round 'ere tell us which moves are officially the 'classics' and I haven't yet done enough intermediate classes as a lead to spot all of 'em yet.

As a follower, I know that intermediate moves seem to go in and out of fashion - the flamenco walk seemed to turn up in every other dance a while ago :rolleyes: (need to learn to lead that one, as a follower, I can confirm that it is a great anticipation tester/buster :devil: ). The point of the 'fashion' thing is that when every other lead is dancing the same moves, it is difficult to tell whether they are "classics" or just happen to have been taught in several classes locally recently. That might be because there are so many classes down here - I did the exact same intermediate class in two different venues in the same week once :rolleyes: - it was the same teacher, but still...

An improvers class would be really useful for leads IMO. However, I worry that it could 'teach' some followers to anticipate even more :tears:

Frankie_4711
21st-June-2006, 06:40 PM
Like the idea.

How about extending the freestyle between Beginners and Intermediate to, say, half an hour and those that want to do an Improvers class could use the Beginners Review area during that time, but those that didn't want to join in could continue to freestyle. One of the moves taught could then be part of the Intermediate routine that follows.

killingtime
21st-June-2006, 06:52 PM
How about extending the freestyle between Beginners and Intermediate to, say, half an hour and those that want to do an Improvers class could use the Beginners Review area during that time, but those that didn't want to join in could continue to freestyle. One of the moves taught could then be part of the Intermediate routine that follows.

It does mean that after doing the Improvers' Class though the person then either sits out during the Intermediate or joins in even though they might not be ready.


* Scotland is this case doesn't include Edinburgh.

We're special

Gadget
21st-June-2006, 08:39 PM
Been thinking about this a bit: I think that there is a gap in the class structure, but I'm not sure if it's between the beginner and intermediate levels or "after" the intermediate levels - I think that both should cover the same ground.

The type of material covered should (IMHO) be the sort of thing Franck is doing in his "Focus On..." series in Stirling.

When would such a class be run?
- Before everyone starts?
you've only really got 10-15 min between doors opening and class starting; is it enough? You could breeze over some things and give the concepts, then it gives something to think on and work through during the beginners lesson without disrupting the whole field.

- During the Beginners class?
But you then take these dancers out of the class, and these are the dancers that the class will learn more from dancing with.

- During the 'intermission'?
Again, you are now stealing dancers from freestyle that is more orientated on beginner dancers. You are also eating into general 'freestyle' time.

- During the Intermediate class?
Same argument as the previous two, and you will get people torn between which of the three classes they should attend - confusion is rarely good. People will also miss out on the moves being taught and any advice/expertese/styling handed out from the stage.

- During freestyle?
And this eats into the main reason a lot of dancers attend.

...
I think that option 1 is probably the best, but would new beginners be put off by (what would look to them) amazing dancers practicing and being taught stuff outside of what they are going to learn? Would they expect/want to join in? would this be to the detriment of the class?

I think that the idea has merrit, but the edges are still fuzzy.

David Bailey
21st-June-2006, 08:42 PM
There was recently a suggestion at a venue of an improvers' class. That is a class that would (presumably) run at the same time as the intermediate that concentrated on the fundamental intermediate moves (such as the Pretzel, Hatchback, Neckbreak etc.).
Loath though I am to mention Australian Ceroc twice in one day - they have improver's classes there, and it seems to work.

I think an improver's class is an excellent idea; all other dance forms have (at least) 3 categories, and classes tailored for each category. Ceroc / MJ is the only form where you're an "intermediate" after 6 / 12 lessons. Hell, I'm going to be a beginner in AT for at least another couple of years; I reckon I might be an intermediate in 10 years' time...


I expect part of the problem with this is you couldn't have taxi dancers teach it and therefore you'd need a qualified Ceroc teacher instead. It also means that you'd need three rooms (Beginner Revision, Improver, Intermediate) but it might also mean that the improver room could be also used to mention technique (such as spinning and lead/follow relationship) in greater detail. It would probably be aimed at people who have been going 6-12 weeks or maybe just until they felt they were ready to proceed.
Absolutely - it's more cost, it's more room, it's more effort, and that all cuts into the short-term profit margin. Of course, in the longer term, the more and better dancers a venue develops, the more and better the profit margin becomes, at least in theory.

I guess one solution would be to charge on a per-class basis, so each class would hopefully be self-funding?

Twirly
22nd-June-2006, 10:05 AM
*snip*
When would such a class be run?
- Before everyone starts?
you've only really got 10-15 min between doors opening and class starting; is it enough? You could breeze over some things and give the concepts, then it gives something to think on and work through during the beginners lesson without disrupting the whole field.

*snip*

- During freestyle?
And this eats into the main reason a lot of dancers attend.

*snip*
...
I think that option 1 is probably the best, but would new beginners be put off by (what would look to them) amazing dancers practicing and being taught stuff outside of what they are going to learn? Would they expect/want to join in? would this be to the detriment of the class?

I think that the idea has merrit, but the edges are still fuzzy.

Gadget I think you've got some good points here -ironing out the practicalities is often the hardest thing.

Option 1 would really depend on the venue - at the Grand in Clapham it would be impossible as the review class is run in the entrance, and it's on carpet! Same at Wessex House, although the floor is better. Personally, I wouldn't be keen on this as I use the beginners class to warm up too - trying to go "cold" straight into even basic intermediate moves sounds like a bad idea.

I still think that doing it post-intermediates would be best. We'd be warmed up, and have a basic grasp of the step for the evening (assuming we would be reviewing the basic intermediate move that had been included in the class that night, plus maybe one other - the one from the previous week possibly?) and it needn't take very long - 15-20 minutes probably. That doesn't eat too much into the freestyle, and since it could be optional, those who don't want to lose any freestyle time wouldn't do it.

This seems to be a good, serious, idea. How do we get the bods at Ceroc central control to take notice?

tsh
22nd-June-2006, 03:11 PM
It seems quite hard to think about this from the point of view of someone learning to dance, and someone who has been dancing for a while, but I am not sure that more classes is a very useful approach. Maybe if the venue is very large, a choice of 2 classes once everyone has turned up - giving a choice of moves to learn, would help.

In the current format, the 'classic' intermediate moves are a complete waste of time for me. On their own, most of them are not moves I would bother to remember now. I would much prefer a format where one base move were re-used for several weeks in a row, but with different variations. The variations then become easier to learn, and hopefully one of the 2/3/4 taught would appeal to each individual. It also teaches that there are no 'fixed' moves, and everything is a combination of parts.

Most of the harder moves I see taught in intermediate classes don't actually seem too difficult (unless they are just awkward or choreographed moves), but most people struggle with them - because they are not given the technique to make the moves work. I would probably start by suggesting that fewer 'stupidly difficult' moves in an intermediate class would help everyone. Vary the moves, yes, but aim to teach things which people remember from week to week - remembering that most punters presumably only dance once a week...

Sean

bigdjiver
22nd-June-2006, 11:32 PM
One of the things about the Ceroc model is that there is minimal segregation. We get championship level dancers in the beginners class, and after that we are all lumped together in intermediate. It probably is not the best way to learn, but it does ensure that everbody dances together, and are continually made aware of the problems that others are having. I still believe that it is more important that we all enjoy ourselves together rather than advancing as fast as we possibly can. Once again I state that the forum view is probably not representative, and the majority view is not necessarily right. I have seen the three tier model in operation, and have not been convinced.

TheTramp
23rd-June-2006, 02:48 AM
Loath though I am to mention Australian Ceroc twice in one day - they have improver's classes there, and it seems to work.

I think an improver's class is an excellent idea; all other dance forms have (at least) 3 categories, and classes tailored for each category. Ceroc / MJ is the only form where you're an "intermediate" after 6 / 12 lessons. Hell, I'm going to be a beginner in AT for at least another couple of years; I reckon I might be an intermediate in 10 years' time...


Absolutely - it's more cost, it's more room, it's more effort, and that all cuts into the short-term profit margin. Of course, in the longer term, the more and better dancers a venue develops, the more and better the profit margin becomes, at least in theory.

I guess one solution would be to charge on a per-class basis, so each class would hopefully be self-funding?

Only in the venues that have facilities (room) to allow this of course. Which are the minority from what I've seen.

Other dance forms that do have improvers classes (and again, this is from my limited experience) are also generally a lot smaller. The teacher doesn't have a microphone, and it's often possible to get all 3 classes in one room. Where there is an intermediate class with 50+ people in, and the teacher has a radio mic, then it'd be quite hard to fit another class into the room, unless it's big enough that the 2nd class can be far enough away from the intermediate class. I can't think of many venues I've ever been to (and I've been to quite a lot!) where there would be room to run 3 classes.

I also don't think that extending the freestyle between the beginners and intermediate classes is a good idea. The longer you leave the beginners sitting around with nothing to do after the first class, the more chance that they'll get bored and leave. I think that it's better to have a short freestyle, and then get them straight away involved in the consolidation class.

However, if there is the option, then I think that it's a good one. It is a big jump from beginners to intermediates. When I was teaching regularly, I always had one class a month, which was quite basic to allow people at least an introduction to the intermediate class. Anything that helps to smooth out the gap from beginners to intermediates has got to be a good thing.

I'm also not sure about the charging per class option. It's very hard to 'police' - what about the people that turn up and pay for the beginner class, then decide that they want to do the intermediate class. I think that a flat rate for the night works better.

ads
23rd-June-2006, 06:25 AM
Loath though I am to mention Australian Ceroc twice in one day - they have improver's classes there, and it seems to work.


Well it is good to see that you humbled yourself enough to mention something that loaths you so much then.

Yes, this is true we have had an improver's class for almost 15 years now at all of our venues, it is good to see you guys talking about introducing them, I think they are a great idea. Who knows the next thing you might be talking about is introducing flashy moves as well!:whistle:

David Bailey
23rd-June-2006, 08:04 AM
Well it is good to see that you humbled yourself enough to mention something that loaths you so much then.
Oops - sorry, I meant that I didn't want to get into a habit, is all. No offence intended, and both times I mentioned them it was in a "Why don't we do this?" way.


Yes, this is true we have had an improver's class for almost 15 years now at all of our venues, it is good to see you guys talking about introducing them, I think they are a great idea. Who knows the next thing you might be talking about is introducing flashy moves as well!:whistle:
Uh-huh. Well, there's a place in the firmament for both move-monsters and dancers, I firmly believe that. :innocent:

ads
23rd-June-2006, 11:40 AM
Uh-huh. Well, there's a place in the firmament for both move-monsters and dancers, I firmly believe that. :innocent:
Just wait until you come across those who are both!

LMC
23rd-June-2006, 11:59 AM
Standard Ceroc classes don't really teach you how to dance. They teach you to perform moves. Some people will never look beyond this, but there is a significant minority who instinctively know that there is something "missing" from the classes, i.e. technique (frame, tension, connection) - although if they have never done any dance before, they probably won't know these terms of course. Ideally, the basics of these (tho' without jargon!) should be covered in taxi review classes - but they aren't always: as a beginner, I went to taxi classes at many venues where they simply went over the class moves, but slower.

Cost of workshops seems to be a barrier to many, SO, how about offering improver's workshops every three months to cover learning "how to dance" rather than "learn some new moves" and offer them free on a loyalty basis - attend 12 or more week-night classes and get a free Improvers workshop (one-time only offer rather than a continuing one!). Every three months will ensure reasonably frequent availability to anyone who wants 'em, and places could be made available for a charge for the people who have had their freebie but want to review basics.

David Bailey
23rd-June-2006, 12:19 PM
Only in the venues that have facilities (room) to allow this of course. Which are the minority from what I've seen.
{ snip lots of good points }
So how does it work in Australia then? More rooms? What's the standard format?


I'm also not sure about the charging per class option. It's very hard to 'police' - what about the people that turn up and pay for the beginner class, then decide that they want to do the intermediate class. I think that a flat rate for the night works better.
Probably, it was just a wild idea to make it more "business-y" or something.

It may be that the "large-class" format of MJ makes 3 classes inherently difficult, as you can only have 1 class per room at the moment.

(I shall resist getting into the "movers / dancers" debate, coz I'm smug and superior. :na: )

Twirly
23rd-June-2006, 12:30 PM
Standard Ceroc classes don't really teach you how to dance. They teach you to perform moves. *snip*
attend 12 or more week-night classes and get a free Improvers workshop *snip*

Absolutely :yeah: actually to whole post but didn't want to repeat it all again.

I "dance" with quite a few guys who basically just stand on the spot and twirl me around. Tall guys do this the most as they can reach with their arms without having to move their feet much. They have a wide repertoire of "moves" but... :sad:

tsh
23rd-June-2006, 01:54 PM
Why not just scrap the intermediate class, and replace it with teaching how to dance? The beginners class still provides the quick-start 'you can dance after one night' thing - is there any need for the other class to follow the same format?

Obviously, some people don't go to Ceroc to learn to dance, but they still take part in the intermediate class. Can the intermediate class change without affecting their participation in this class? i.e. they don't want to learn, but do they want to not learn?

Sean

LMC
23rd-June-2006, 01:58 PM
Fantastic idea. If only people could be convinced that more moves do not necessarily a better dancer make...

One of my depressing moments at SP was when someone asked me if I could remember the routine from one of Franck's classes. I did tell her that the moves were not the point (but nicely, honest).

Perhaps only teach two moves in the intermediate class - people hardly ever remember 3 or 4 anyway - and have 15 minutes 'technique' stuff first?

stewart38
23rd-June-2006, 02:31 PM
One of the things about the Ceroc model is that there is minimal segregation. We get championship level dancers in the beginners class, and after that we are all lumped together in intermediate. It probably is not the best way to learn, but it does ensure that everbody dances together, and are continually made aware of the problems that others are having. I still believe that it is more important that we all enjoy ourselves together rather than advancing as fast as we possibly can. Once again I state that the forum view is probably not representative, and the majority view is not necessarily right. I have seen the three tier model in operation, and have not been convinced.


It does amaze me after about 6 weeks you can jump into a intermediate class and that’s it

However based on the odd Salsa class when you can have 4 or 5 different groups with each shouting over the other im not sure ceroc is the worse ‘model’

killingtime
23rd-June-2006, 02:48 PM
Fantastic idea. If only people could be convinced that more moves do not necessarily a better dancer make...

Well despite people telling me that when I started it's only really been recently that I've really believed that. I still like learning new moves but I no longer obsessively keep track of all them. Often I'll still make notes of the moves we've done and I'll try and fit in the moves I like until they've joined my collection of "regular" moves.

Ceroc's teaching is very moves focused. It makes it easier to pick up. It's only later on in Modern Jive where you really start learning about frame and other concepts. From other dances I've done Salsa and WCS tend to teach you a bit of both moves and technique. Tango teaches you technique and one day I might get to moves. It makes sense though. These concepts aren't required to dance MJ (though if you want to get to a certain level you have to know them). WCS and Salsa both require some level of knowledge from both lead and follow (such as the slot or the timing). Tango requires a very good understanding of the frame before you can get anywhere (well without kicking each other at least). I'm pretty sure sticking in a bit of technique at intermediate level would be really good. Maybe just focusing on one aspect per week. It wouldn't take more than 5 minutes out of the Intermediate class and could do a world of good.

ducasi
23rd-June-2006, 04:22 PM
'm pretty sure sticking in a bit of technique at intermediate level would be really good. Maybe just focusing on one aspect per week. Come to JJ's sometime and you'll see Franck do just that.

killingtime
23rd-June-2006, 04:41 PM
Come to JJ's sometime and you'll see Franck do just that.

Then should it be a standard thing that the teachers do. If we stuck in a "classic" intermediate move then that would probably create enough time at the Edinburgh classes.