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Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
20th-June-2006, 11:16 PM
I personally, like many others I am sure, am always thinking about my dancing and how I could improve it-style, technique etc. Alot of the time when I am dancing I will follow a move and think "I wonder if I am following that wrong"; usually it is the same moves so perhaps I am right in thinking so.

Anyway! Wouldn't it be nice if we could get dance report cards, just like being back at school, that way we would know what to do to improve. I think it would save alot of people from making the same mistakes time and time again (me included). I do realise this probably wouldn't be feasibly possible as Ceroc isn't structured like other dance classes where the teacher would get to know everyone alot easier as it would be a smaller class and different setting, but wouldn't it be cool? I know I can be a big nerd alot of the time, but that is just me :na: What do you all think?

ash :)

El Salsero Gringo
20th-June-2006, 11:21 PM
IAnyway! Wouldn't it be nice if we could get dance report cards, just like being back at schoolNo! I can't think of anything more capable of preventing new members from dancing Ceroc than this!

Can you imagine? "Donkey-boy works hard at his first moves, which have improved significantly this term. He must learn not to tread on his partners feet though. Effort: B+ Overall: C-"

Trousers
20th-June-2006, 11:49 PM
Eeyore, Eeyore, 'e always says stuff like that but I agree whole heartedly this time.

Sparkles
20th-June-2006, 11:49 PM
No! I can't think of anything more capable of preventing new members from dancing Ceroc than this!
:yeah:
Have to say I completely agree.
The best thing about dancing is that it's fun!
Make it based on "how good your report card is" and all that fun goes right out the window.

ducasi
20th-June-2006, 11:51 PM
No! I can't think of anything more capable of preventing new members from dancing Ceroc than this!

Can you imagine? "Donkey-boy works hard at his first moves, which have improved significantly this term. He must learn not to tread on his partners feet though. Effort: B+ Overall: C-"
I can think of lots of things more capable.

I think it's a good idea – for those that want it. (Though if you want this sort of feedback, maybe just ask your teacher...)

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
20th-June-2006, 11:51 PM
Well, once again no one understands what I mean

ducasi
20th-June-2006, 11:53 PM
Well, once again no one understands what I mean
I understand you. :hug:

Sparkles
20th-June-2006, 11:55 PM
I understand you. :hug:
maybe you could explain it to us?
Maybe it is a good idea and ESG and I have misunderstood :flower:

Gadget
20th-June-2006, 11:57 PM
Why not just approach your teacher, say "can you dance with me and let me know what you would recomment I need to work on to improve?" :confused:

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
21st-June-2006, 12:01 AM
Yes, I meant only if you want the feedback. I have asked taxi's and teachers lots of times for feedback, but I dunno it never seems to be enough. As usual you have all got too serious and jumped down my throat

Lynn
21st-June-2006, 12:05 AM
Ash, do you mean a structured system of feedback so that you know what you need to work on to improve? There was some discussion on this on another thread a while back.

Feedback is a vital part of learning. Beginners can get feedback from taxis, but once past that stage then getting feedback is very much optional and we usually need to go looking for it. But there are ways - a smaller group workshop, asking a more experienced dancer to offer feedback (I have done this), asking someone to watch you dance and offer feedback.

If you want more structure you could ask the teacher to have a dance with you with a view to highlighting a couple of points to work on, then ask them to dance with you again perhaps a month later, reminding them of the things you were working on and assessing your progress.

spindr
21st-June-2006, 12:07 AM
Yes, I meant only if you want the feedback. I have asked taxi's and teachers lots of times for feedback, but I dunno it never seems to be enough.
I guess if you want a great deal of quality individual feedback, then a (short) private lesson is probably your best bet.

Or maybe join a class for a dance that features more technique?

SpinDr

MartinHarper
21st-June-2006, 12:08 AM
I think Ash is asking for us forumites to construct a home-made report card for her, and have all the people she dances with fill it in. I'm sure there are some appropriate designs available on the internet.

ducasi
21st-June-2006, 12:26 AM
maybe you could explain it to us?
Maybe it is a good idea and ESG and I have misunderstood :flower:
OK...

What a report card would do beyond all the other suggestions would be to provide a framework of assessment and feedback – delivered in a written form.

Asking teachers, private lessons, feedback from Joe Punter – all good, but it could miss things, it could be difficult to express the feedback, and by the time you've had another few dances you've forgotten what you'd been told.

A report card would have maybe half a dozen aspects to dancing, and you could be scored on each. Assessment and effort – both useful. Space for written comments on each area, plus an over-all mark with comments.

This would let *those that want to* know where they need to put in extra effort, and encourage them where they are doing well.

Sounds like a good idea to me... After all, they've been used in schools for decades, if not centuries – they must serve a useful pedagogical role.

under par
21st-June-2006, 01:39 AM
He must learn not to tread on his partners feet though. Effort: B+ Overall: C-"

Height A+


:D :D

Dress sense F-

Lou
21st-June-2006, 08:32 AM
I think Ash is asking for us forumites to construct a home-made report card for her, and have all the people she dances with fill it in. I'm sure there are some appropriate designs available on the internet.
Martin, I miss you! :D

I'm not sure Ceroc's the best way to provide the structured format Ash wants. The size of the average class would make it hard for the teacher to assess everyone (or those particular people who have requested it, if it works that way...).

However, wouldn't it be nice to get gold stars for good behaviour.... :whistle:

(or detention & lines for those who are naughty... :innocent: )

"I must not hi-jack my Glasgow partners.... I must not hi-jack my Glasgow partners...."

LMC
21st-June-2006, 09:06 AM
Blimey, this thread got to the 5th post before someone agreed with the first post. Must be a record.

I'm agin report cards as SOP and with spindr that the best way to get feedback is a private lesson or from trusted friends/taxis/teachers. If you want it in written format then take notes! I have form phobia (bit of a problem for a PA) so can't think of anything worse than a standard report card. Yuk. Sorry Ash, but informal is the way to go here.

David Bailey
21st-June-2006, 09:07 AM
Well, I think it's an interesting idea.

I agree it'd be totally wrong to subject new starters to that, but as a voluntary feedback / assessment, done at a specific stage, I reckon it's got a lot to recommend it.

The Australian "Blue Card" system is assessment / review-based, and that seems to work OK for them. (Here's the thread about it (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7450) - is this the one you were thinking of, Lynn?)

The bonus of a "report", instead of just a "dance" is that it's written down - it's not verbal feedback which we can forget or misinterpret; it's a proper structure, with the results there in black and white for you to study and think about. OK, it'll probably be in a dance+write-up format, but it could look and feel more professional.

I reckon the optimal time to introduce such a system could be when you move up from beginner's to intermediates - offer people a free 10-minute assessment with a report card, something like that? Gyms use a similar system, and that seems to work well.

Certainly worth discussing I reckon.

Beowulf
21st-June-2006, 09:51 AM
Aaaaargh! am getting school flashbacks!

"Pete tries hard but gets distracted easily. Could do better"

El Salsero Gringo
21st-June-2006, 10:06 AM
As soon as some people start getting cards out and writing down their scores, everyone else is going to get the idea that either they ought to be doing the same or they're second rate and ought to give up Ceroc.

I'm sorry, but informal, formal, optional, voluntary, only for those that really want it, however you word it, I think it's a truly dreadful idea.

LMC
21st-June-2006, 10:14 AM
:yeah: in SPADES

The first person who asks whether I have my blue card yet before they ask me to dance would get a "No" to BOTH questions.

The trouble with a formal system and "qualified" assessors is that your 'report' could be based on just one person's opinion of your dancing. We all dance differently with and have different connections with different people, so however good someone is, there will still be some subjectivity in their opinion of what you need to improve.

I have had some quite hurtful feedback in the past from someone who did not mean to be hurtful and had in fact put a good deal of thought and care into his feedback, which I appreciated. HOWEVER, I felt that he was wrong in his assessment of my ability. Unfortunately, although we danced more than once over a period of time, we purely do not connect well together. Whilst I respect his opinion/knowledge, and his feedback had some validity, if it hadn't been for the encouragement from others and some long hard objective thought on my 'actual' standard, then I would probably have given up dancing there and then.

I haven't danced with him in freestyle for a long time, and in some ways I would love to - because I respect his knowledge and opinion and know he would be honest in his feedback. The fact that I was hurt by the last batch was 100% my problem, there was nothing wrong with the 'delivery'. However, because of 'past experience' I know that I would be nervous and not dance at my best with him - whether or not I had asked for feedback.

Informal feedback is good and enormously helpful. Formal feedback on an informal basis and "up to the individual" - why not? - in fact, I would want this to be part of any private lesson and would very much appreciate it - because I would get to choose who gave me that formal feedback and it would be completely private and not part of any "system".

But a formal scheme where feedback is recorded, and there will presumably have to be nominated assessors, reducing choice in who can give you "official" notification of your 'standard'? No, no, no, a thousand times no.

Sparkles
21st-June-2006, 10:21 AM
Firstly, no-one jumped down anyone's throat, an opinion was asked for and it was given - we are allowed to have differences of opinion sometimes :flower:.

Secondly, even now there has been further explanation, I still don't think it's a good idea and believe that it would be much better to take your own notes from lessons/private lessons/feedback from friends and dancing partners - and that a standard report card just doesn't fit into the way MJ generally and Ceroc in particular are structured.

The reason I think this is because there is no set "right" way to dance modern jive.
Everyone has their own particular style, everyone enjoys different things about dancing... so why should we try to put people in a box and say "you've only got a 'B' because you bounce too much" when in fact you might enjoy the 'bouncing' in your dancing and not wish to change it?
Who decides what criteria have to be met for which grade? We don't even have 'medal tests' in modern jive because there isn't a set structure for moves - there isn't a right or a wrong, there's just dancing! :cheers:
This is one of the major reasons why I switched from ballroom to modern jive, I got fed up with people picking on me over my technique all the time. I go dancing to have fun, not to get told off or feel like I'm not good enough if my grades aren't high.

IMO, if you want feedback then do as LMC suggests and seek it out in your own way from people you trust and respect, it's a fine ambition to be a 'better dancer' to be sure, and I would never discourage anyone from trying to improve. I, however, don't believe a 'report card' is the way to encourage people to improve, in fact I think it might have the opposite effect and put people off.

Tessalicious
21st-June-2006, 11:47 AM
IMHO, although feedback from people you respect is always helpful, and one of the best ways to know how to improve, anything that increases the formality of this is a problem*. The reason being that dance is a creative art form, even if an ephemeral one, and as such is subjective in approval of it. A very very strict structure of what you are allowed to say is bad operates in similar creative disciplines, such as music and other dance forms, but although the teaching in Ceroc is strictly controlled, the whole point is that the dancing shouldn't be. The dance has flexibility in what can be done, and the fact that different things suit different people, and different people like seeing or feeling others doing different things, is what makes it an interesting experience. I wouldn't expect some of the more latiny teachers to approve of any hip-hop styling that I might (or might not) be able to do, for example.

So, to make a report system work, without being seriously subjective (at which point people would only ask for reports from teachers they knew approved of their way of dancing, to avoid being ripped apart) pretty much anything that somebody, somewhere, can pull off well, would have to be something that couldn't be criticised. Who's to say where the line falls between people who have learnt, through WCS or otherwise, to syncopate their feet to make the dance feel funky, and people who just can't dance with their feet in time to the music?

So maybe your best bet is to approach either one teacher for a series of a few private lessons, on your own or with a partner if you must, and get some advice, some direction and some view on your progress as it goes on - or, for a different viewpoint, have several private lessons in one week with different teachers of different styles and see what feedback you get from that.

On the other hand, there's nothing to stop you doing exactly what MartinHarper suggested - doing a homemade version and asking people you dance with socially for feedback. Just don't expect anything terribly useful to come out of it. People tend to be too nice, because they don't want to say anything that you might take offence to, or too harsh, because they see your potential and dump loads of suggestions for improvement on you at once - or just simply because you didn't 'gel' with that person.

If you decide to try it, good luck!

*Of course, DJ, before you say anything, that's not at odds with the idea of competitions, even though they are judged and marked, because that is about entertaining a crowd - not about being good to dance with. Obviously. Duh.

David Bailey
21st-June-2006, 12:23 PM
Blimey, serious can of worms here :eek:

OK, cover me, I'm going in...


Firstly, no-one jumped down anyone's throat, an opinion was asked for and it was given - we are allowed to have differences of opinion sometimes :flower:.
Ash clearly believes there was a collective throat-jumping-down (and I agree with her), simply by the vehemence and volume of responses. And it's her opinion as the throatee that's relevant, not yours as the throater.

(I'm now going to try very hard to get that image out of my mind... :sick: :innocent: )

Anyway, all credit to her for starting an interesting thread, with actual honest-to-God debate about dancing stuff.


Secondly ... I still don't think it's a good idea and believe that it would be much better to take your own notes from lessons/private lessons/feedback from friends and dancing partners - and that a standard report card just doesn't fit into the way MJ generally and Ceroc in particular are structured.
But it'll always be better to have private lessons than a large Ceroc class - does that mean no-one should ever try to learn at a Ceroc class? Also, "It's not the way we do it now" is just an argument never to make any changes.


The reason I think this is because there is no set "right" way to dance modern jive.
But there are definitely wrong ways to dance it - yanking, or doing aerials in crowded social dances being definite no-nos, I think we can all agree on. So that sort of thing can be caught and hopefully corrected, can't it?


Who decides what criteria have to be met for which grade?
Me. Obviously. :na:

And if we're talking about grades, I suggest moving this discussion to the "Dance levels (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7450)" thread,


This is one of the major reasons why I switched from ballroom to modern jive, I got fed up with people picking on me over my technique all the time. I go dancing to have fun, not to get told off or feel like I'm not good enough if my grades aren't high.
But wouldn't you like a system where yankers could be told they're yankers, and where gross mistakes could be occasionally corrected?

And:

The first person who asks whether I have my blue card yet before they ask me to dance would get a "No" to BOTH questions.
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works in Australia :confused: - it's just another assessment, the idea being that you can progress and improve better with some structured feedback.


The trouble with a formal system and "qualified" assessors is that your 'report' could be based on just one person's opinion of your dancing. We all dance differently with and have different connections with different people, so however good someone is, there will still be some subjectivity in their opinion of what you need to improve.
But, some people are better than others objectively - I agree there's a lot of subjectivity and differences of style, but there's also experience and skill. And if someone says "you're yanking too much", then that's good feedback, isn't it? And the yankers are often the ones who won't ask for feedback informally, or would discount it as being "just someone's opinion". Maybe the system could be 2-people - one partner and one observer?


So, to make a report system work, without being seriously subjective (at which point people would only ask for reports from teachers they knew approved of their way of dancing, to avoid being ripped apart) pretty much anything that somebody, somewhere, can pull off well, would have to be something that couldn't be criticised.
But it works in Australia. So "a structured feedback system" is not an inherently impossible system to implement, is it?


So maybe your best bet is to approach either one teacher for a series of a few private lessons, on your own or with a partner if you must, and get some advice, some direction and some view on your progress as it goes on - or, for a different viewpoint, have several private lessons in one week with different teachers of different styles and see what feedback you get from that.
Absolutely - but again, you need a lot of time and money and effort to do that. Which most people don't have.

El Salsero Gringo
21st-June-2006, 12:37 PM
But wouldn't you like a system where yankers could be told they're yankers, and where gross mistakes could be occasionally corrected?We have a system like that already. It operates every time you ask people to stop yanking your arm. No need for report cards.
But it works in Australia. It works in Australia, for Australian Ceroc. Since we're not in Australia, and we don't have the social/competitive/cultural background that Australian Ceroc has, I'm not sure that tells us anything.

LMC
21st-June-2006, 12:41 PM
*tries desperately to ignore Blazing Saddles quote*

What we actually need is a McDonalds badge system with the little spaces for stars. One star for being able to lead/follow beginners' moves in freestyle without yanking, gripping or (for followers) backleading. Another for being able to do safe dips/seducers. Another for aerials. Another for being able to do the "opposite" role. And one more which I can't be bothered to think of right now because I'm just being silly.

The Oz card system may not be "supposed" to work in the way that people ask which card you've got before they ask you to dance, but I bet it actually does work that way for some people.

The stuff about yanking, gripping, not doing aerials on a crowded floor can be corrected on an individual basis within the existing "system" - and should be. Why does there need to be some sort of "proof" that "I don't do that"?

Even if you can't afford private lessons, there are many many good dancers and teachers who are happy to do 5-10 minutes here and there to focus on a particular problem - pick someone you respect and ask 'em! - as I said earlier, you can always write whatever-it-is down yourself.

Unlike Sparkles, I've never done formal dancing, but I agree that part of the 'joy' of MJ is its freedom and flexibility.

Cruella
21st-June-2006, 12:43 PM
Well i always tried to hide my report cards from school!!!
Although thinking about it, they did often contain the phrase ' Diana is easily led' :rolleyes:

Lou
21st-June-2006, 12:50 PM
*What we actually need is a McDonalds badge system with the little spaces for stars...... And one more which I can't be bothered to think of right now because I'm just being silly.
Hey. There's nothing silly about the stars idea... :na:


But there are definitely wrong ways to dance it - yanking, or doing aerials in crowded social dances being definite no-nos, I think we can all agree on. So that sort of thing can be caught and hopefully corrected, can't it?
But I get the feeling that Ash wanted feedback on less fundamental problems. I doubt she yanks or throws her partner in the air. Maybe there should be a series of workshops for experienced Intermediate dancers, with a system of properly structured feedback?

ducasi
21st-June-2006, 12:56 PM
Here's a few things that might be on a follower's report card... each given a mark from A down to F...

Following ability – how well does the dancer follow a lead?
Timing – how well does the dancer dance in time with the music?
Anticipation – how well does the dancer wait for the lead?
Smoothness – do they give a smooth dance?
Connection – do they connect well with their lead?
Musicality
Extra footwork
Overall style

While some of these will vary depending on who the dancer is dancing with, I don't think it's so hard to rate these factors objectively, and provide a simple comment on where improvements could be made.

I don't think that anything I've listed would stop people developing their own style – funky, latin, hip-hop – whatever...

Obviously if you have a particularly latin style, you're not going to go to a hip-hop teacher and ask them how you might improve...

EDIT: just remembered another one I wanted to add: floorcraft.

LMC
21st-June-2006, 01:06 PM
HORRID stuff - sorry ducasi but it is. All that just reminds me forcibly of the misery experienced in a UK education system that has not fundamentally changed for the last 200 years.

I would be appalled at the thought that someone was marking a card for me on all those things, whether I knew or not that the marking was happening. Not only appalled, but extremely ungrateful. It's all very well saying that a system would be voluntary, but these things are important to some people (evidently, from the discussion here). However, I wouldn't want to participate in a hobby which "grades" me in such a mechanical manner.

After exams, I used to leg it out of school at the speed of light to avoid post-mortems. I can hear the post-assessment post mortems in my head now "oooh, did he lead that hatchback on you, how many spins did you manage" "I know I had my hand at the wrong height leading that manspin" etc etc etc

And then "I got a B for my overall style, what did you get?"

IMO, the only point of a formal feedback system is so you can compare yourself with others. And I don't see the point of that in MJ.

David Bailey
21st-June-2006, 01:06 PM
We have a system like that already. It operates every time you ask people to stop yanking your arm. No need for report cards.
Umm, I don't think it works very well judging by the number of yanker-horror-stories we see...


It works in Australia, for Australian Ceroc. Since we're not in Australia, and we don't have the social/competitive/cultural background that Australian Ceroc has, I'm not sure that tells us anything.
It tells us that such a system is possible, not impossible. It certainly doesn't say such a system is practical or desirable, but neither does it say (which was the original point) that such a system would be Hell On Earth. Unless that's your view of Australia of course :innocent:

And I'm sure you (if nobody else) will note that I've not said such a system is desirable or practical - I have my doubts. But I do think it's worth considering and debating.


The Oz card system may not be "supposed" to work in the way that people ask which card you've got before they ask you to dance, but I bet it actually does work that way for some people.
I have no data, but that's a heck of an assumption to make. None of the Australian dancers I know have such an attitude - maybe you could ask in the Ozzy forum? :whistle:


The stuff about yanking, gripping, not doing aerials on a crowded floor can be corrected on an individual basis within the existing "system" - and should be. Why does there need to be some sort of "proof" that "I don't do that"?
I'm hardly suggesting a requirement to show an ID cards before being allowed to dance socially. Also, how do you suggest that the current system deals with yanker / gripper / aerialists? Because from what I can see, it doesn't deal with them at all.


Even if you can't afford private lessons, there are many many good dancers and teachers who are happy to do 5-10 minutes here and there to focus on a particular problem - pick someone you respect and ask 'em! - as I said earlier, you can always write whatever-it-is down yourself.
So why would you ever bother going to classes at all then? Why not just follow good dancers around, pen and pad in hand, video them, and get all your information like that?


IMO, the only point of a formal feedback system is so you can compare yourself with others. And I don't see the point of that in MJ.
No - it's to compare you with you - to find out what you're doing wrong and develop a routine to fix it. Same way as gyms do for exercise programmes - no-one expects all gym-goers to be fit immediately.

LMC
21st-June-2006, 01:18 PM
No - it's to compare you with you - to find out what you're doing wrong and develop a routine to fix it.
In which case, you can record your progress informally in any way you want to, if you have the motivation to do so.

Just as you can tell people that they are hurting you by yanking or gripping, or behaving dangerously if you have the motivation to do so (and if you feel you can't tell the dancer direct, then there is always someone else 'in authority' to tell).

Individuals *can* make the existing system work for them. It sometimes just takes the courage to open your mouth and ask for something, or tell someone that they are hurting you. A grading system won't stop yanker horror stories, because there will always be people who haven't learned yet not to yank.


Same way as gyms do for exercise programmes - no-one expects all gym-goers to be fit immediately.
There is a definite right and wrong way to use a gym machine. Dancing is far more individual.

Even if an assessment system is supposedly optional, there will be too many people who attach far too much importance to it as a 'measure'.

Princess Fi
21st-June-2006, 01:25 PM
I would be appalled at the thought that someone was marking a card for me on all those things, whether I knew or not that the marking was happening. {snip} However, I wouldn't want to participate in a hobby which "grades" me in such a mechanical manner.


Good points being raised throughout this thread, and I can see the pros and cons of each side of the debate. I don't think I really have formed an opinion about whether it would be entierly good or bad (Fi gets out the wood to make a nice fence to sit on)...

.. but in terms of 'grading', do you not think is is going on already? Every time I go to a dance event, other people's pro and cons are discussed:

- Oh dance with him, he's a brilliant lead
- avoid that guy, he nearly broke my finger off while gripping
- that person there has amazing style, make sure you dance with them

etc etc.

IMO I don't think that creating a report card system will really increase the amount of 'grading' that goes on - we're all doing it already on some level. It will make it a bit more formal, and has the potential to upset those wanting the 'feedback' - but wouldn't that be the risk you would take anyway when you ask for feedback in the first place?

(Oh I agree with LMC that I wouldn't like to think I was being graded in something I am doing just for fun - not to say that the occaisional compliment here and there wouldn't be nice :flower:)

Yliander
21st-June-2006, 01:26 PM
The Oz card system may not be "supposed" to work in the way that people ask which card you've got before they ask you to dance, but I bet it actually does work that way for some people. actually I think it does work the way it is supposed to – the only time I have been asked what colour card I have has been in discussing competitions as if you hold a blue or gold card you are required to compete at certain levels.

The cards are more a competency based thing – either you can do the thing required – ie dance on beat, spin on balance and with control - or you can’t – if you don’t manage it you are provided with advice on how to improve it.

It’s an optional thing which is there for those that want it. *shrug* horses for courses really – I’ve got my blue card – but haven’t gone for my Gold Card :$

The great thing I see in the blue/gold card system is that it lays out fundamental techniques as a foundation for peoples dancing


The stuff about yanking, gripping, not doing aerials on a crowded floor can be corrected on an individual basis within the existing "system" - and should be. Why does there need to be some sort of "proof" that "I don't do that"? because IMHO the ad-hoc method doesn’t always actually work – because the guidance isn’t always consistent or from a respected figure




Just as you can tell people that they are hurting you by yanking or gripping, or behaving dangerously and how many people feel comfortable doing this?!?!? not many juding by the number of times the question of how to tell someone that they are hurting you comes up on this forum

David Bailey
21st-June-2006, 01:26 PM
In which case, you can record your progress informally in any way you want to, if you have the motivation to do so.

Just as you can tell people that they are hurting you by yanking or gripping, or behaving dangerously if you have the motivation to do so (and if you feel you can't tell the dancer direct, then there is always someone else 'in authority' to tell).
Which almost never happens now, so that's clearly not working. Relying on someone's motivation to improve is a poor teaching method in all situations; you need support structures to do this learning stuff. Similarly, I don't think the current system of relying on people having the guts to tell a yanker that they're a yanker is working well.


Individuals *can* make the existing system work for them. It sometimes just takes the courage to open your mouth and ask for something, or tell someone that they are hurting you. A grading system won't stop yanker horror stories, because there will always be people who haven't learned yet not to yank.
I've never said it would - but it may (just may) help reduce them.


There is a definite right and wrong way to use a gym machine. Dancing is far more individual.
Actually, I think the analogy still holds. Look at weight machines - you can definitely hurt yourself by doing it wrong, and you can hurt your dance partner if you do wrong things in dancing. And you may want different things out of weight-training; stamina, muscle-building, toning etc., so you'd use different machines and techniques.

jive_me
21st-June-2006, 02:22 PM
I think I see where Ash is coming from. It's exceptionally hard to get any sort of feedback (or is this just me?). 99% of the time someone asks me for a dance, they dance, they say thank you and then they move on. I think the view is that it's a dance, it's for fun, so what if you missed the lead on one particular move etc.

I think feedback is a good idea, but how to implement it? Recently managed to find myself a couple of pleasant blokes who will tell me if I've done something wrong which has been amazing for my dancing.

Maybe 'report cards' could be reserved for those who specifically ask for them? D'you think it would be the more 'serious' (I'm not sure serious is the right word to use) dancers that would want them ie. those who might want to compete or teach or taxi in the future? That might be useful...

xXx:flower:

tsh
21st-June-2006, 02:28 PM
I'm not really in favour of encouraging any formal grading system, but I'm definately in favour of encouraging more feedback from teachers. I'm not sure it applies so much in MJ, where the style is very loosely defined, and moves are generally designed to require very little in the way of technique - but as an example I've been to 2 lindy classes in Nice, and had maybe 5-6 different suggestions made already. They are mostly fairly small things, like being too close or far from my partner, or hand-holds/frame - but they are significant enough to make a difference. They're not just picking on me because I don't understand most of what they say in the classes, other people get similar treatment. In the UK, teachers seem to be much more reluctant to give advice without being asked - but most of the time I can't see that I'm doing something wrong, even if a move seems difficult.

Sean

El Salsero Gringo
21st-June-2006, 02:34 PM
Umm, I don't think it works very well judging by the number of yanker-horror-stories we see...The reason the current 'system' fails is because people aren't interested to 'use' it. In which case a system "...to compare you with you - to find out what you're doing wrong and develop a routine to fix it.." isn't going to make a hap'orth of difference to those people. Develop a system that's more formal, and you won't change people's attitudes (they're not 4 year-olds), you'll just change the set of people who attend, primarily by weeding out the ones who don't want to be assessed. So yes, we'd have better, more Australian Ceroc. But much less of it.


But I do think it's worth considering and debating.I've considered it, and I'm firmly against. Put me down to oppose the motion.

David Franklin
21st-June-2006, 02:52 PM
I think there are at least three different topics here. I'm giving my thoughts on all of them, but I think a lot of confusion is due to people trying to stick all 3 together when there are quite different issues involved.

Correcting fundamentally bad dancing: That is, problems with the basics - yanking and grips of death.

It seems to me the immediate responsiblity here falls on the taxi dancers (and/or teachers dancing with them) to provide correction. You want to be fixing this right from the first lesson, so unless you were planning to do the report card that early, I'm not sure it would help this scenario much.

Correcting bad behaviour: By which I mean things like bad floorcraft, inappropriate dips/drops/aerials, sleazy moves, etc.

Difficult one this - I can't see a solution other than someone stepping in and saying something. Much easier if it's someone with authority such as a teacher or taxi-dancer. Again, the report card doesn't really help much, because if someone's being "graded" they're going to be on their best behaviour. Though some people may not even be aware they're behaving badly and so find the feedback useful.

Getting feedback to improve dancing, style, etc: (I think this is what the original poster was talking about). This is quite a wide classification, as you could be talking about anything from someone struggling with starting intermediate classes to an Open champion trying to improve still further.

I think the general idea is a good one, but I'm unconvinced a particular formalisation such as report cards will work.

Now possibly at the lower levels you could get something useful from a "report card" and 3-5 minutes of time from a teacher. But I think most of the people actively looking for feedback are quite a way beyond that and so you're really talking about a mini-private lesson, at the least, if not more. Does a report card make sense here? Not really, IMHO - you need much more detailed feedback than you're likely to get from a fixed format, and you probably need hands on instruction from a teacher as well.

And as many have said, the higher your expectations, the less likely you can find a single teacher who can really help you in that area. You also have the problem that you probably need "grading" from an opposite-role teacher, but advice/correction from a same-role teacher.

Chef
21st-June-2006, 03:03 PM
The basic thing behinds Jazzs’ initial question seem to me that she is asking the questions that some people that want to make the transition to being dancers ask.

WHAT am I doing wrong? (which is different from doing it right in a different way)

HOW do I go about stopping doing it wrong and doing it right?

WHERE/HOW do I find the teachers that will help me?

How do I VERIFY that I am now doing it absolutely right rather than nearly right?

This forum is littered with threads where people have been talking about all sorts of things that they regard as faults in other people – yankers, bouncers, grippers, being off time, poor floorcraft, not being able to do drops well, etc.

The first problem seems to being able to identify what is a fault because, it seems, that one persons fault is another persons feature. There is just no consensus on the subject. No definite set of things that you should not do as a dancer that everyone can agree on. If you cannot have a particular behaviour identified as a known fault (and why it would be considered a fault) then you cannot even examine yourself and say “oh dear – I do that. I didn’t even know it was a problem”.

Once you have identified that something that you do is a fault you are then faced with the problem of how you go about unlearning the bad habit that you have and training your mind and body to do it in the new way. It is at this point I have turned to more experienced dancers and to specialist teachers and tried to find a number of different ways of achieving the same ends. One way of learning these new skills does not fit everybody and you just have to hunt around until you find a teacher and a method of learning that fits with your own natural way of learning. Fortunately I have found that there are many ways that you can train yourself that doesn’t require the presence of a partner.

Once you have found a method and a teacher that suits you, how do you verify that what you ARE doing is the same as what you THINK you are doing? Nearly right is not really right. For me that has meant going back to my teachers and getting their feedback and the use of their critical and analytical eyes. I also videotape myself and/or partner and looking at the footage frame by frame and that helps me compare what I see my instructors doing with what I am actually doing. It is an iterative process.

There are a large number of ways of identifying your own faults, finding the right instructor and method of training, and verifying that the results needed have been obtained. The particular combination of these that works for you is likely to be as individual as you are.

A few years back I was introduced to a Chinese saying by my then girlfriend.

When the student is ready to learn they will seek the teacher.

LMC
21st-June-2006, 03:04 PM
Much as it pains me not to give ESG the opportunity to wonder once more why someone reasonably intelligent can be so stupid :innocent:, I'm sat on the opposition side of the table too (no, really? :na: )

The teacher on a regular Ceroc night is there for everyone. The taxis are also there for anyone who needs help - "especially" the beginners, but not just the beginners. If you ask a vague and general question like "How am I doing?" then you can expect a vague and general answer. A better question might be "What do you think I could do to really improve my dancing?" or any more specific question.

Most MJ-ers just want to dance and don't really want "proper" feedback, more reassurance that they are doing well and deserve to give themselves a big round of applause \_/. If you're not getting the feedback you want from someone on the dance floor, it could be that they don't realise that you're really wanting to focus on some aspect of your dancing - or could simply be that they don't want to spend the time with you right that minute, they want to be dancing. That doesn't mean that they won't ever help you. I've had a good deal of success with asking people for future favours - "I need some help/"proper" feedback, please may I have 5 minutes of your time and when is a good time to do that?".

Even if there was a formal assessment system, people would still be needing to ask others for assistance on an individual level with concepts they find difficult - even if they are covered in class, many won't listen, won't understand or are simply slower to grasp some things than others.

I really still can't see how a formal assessment system would improve on what's already available to anyone who has the guts to ask for it.

EDIT due to cross-post: :worthy: DF for clarification

EDIT again: add to last bit "or the money to pay for it." I've only ever had one private lesson, but it was priceless to me in terms of improving my dancing. Ash, I know you're a student and on a tight budget, but if you know what you specifically want to focus on then perhaps someone will give you the money for your birthday/Christmas :nice:

DavidB
21st-June-2006, 03:35 PM
The feedback I would give to just about anyone is:
- Ladies - follow the hand
- Men - Remember the lady is trying to follow the hand.


Mini Private Lessons

As has been said, the best way to get feedback is a private lesson from a good teacher. However the cost per hour is prohibitive for what is simply a hobby to most dancers.

Would there be a market for mini private lessons - say 15 minutes for £10?

jive_me
21st-June-2006, 03:40 PM
Depending on the teacher some private lessons can do more harm than good. I don't think 15 minutes would be that constructive...but then maybe...? If it's one of your regular teachers though I don't think personally I'd feel comfortable handing over more money...I'd feel better just pulling them to one side and asking a few questions? IMO that's what the teacher's there for on a dance night...

xXx

David Franklin
21st-June-2006, 03:46 PM
Would there be a market for mini private lessons - say 15 minutes for £10?Possibly; I'm not sure how much you can usefully cover in 15 minutes - sure you can do a heck of a lot if it all goes well, but it only takes the teacher to get stuck trying to explain an issue and all the time gets eaten up pretty quickly.

And of course the other question is whether it's worth it to the teacher. Seems it would be a lot more work to do four mini-lessons than one full lesson.

DavidB
21st-June-2006, 03:58 PM
If it's one of your regular teachers though I don't think personally I'd feel comfortable handing over more money...I'd feel better just pulling them to one side and asking a few questions? IMO that's what the teacher's there for on a dance night...Sorry I forgot. Teachers are a charitable organisation.

LMC
21st-June-2006, 04:07 PM
To me, the aim of a private lesson is really to improve understanding - the improvement in the actual dancing takes time to build to its full potential (i.e. some improvement should hopefully be immediately obvious, but it takes longer than an hour to build muscle memory or the necessary physical fitness to reach your full improvement potential).

I think 15 minutes could work if you want something *really* specific and know that the teacher is the right one for you to learn/understand that. It would be a bit pointless for learning more moves or for really complicated stuff, but the basics of many technical concepts could be understood in that time - it's always the easiest things to understand which seem to take a lifetime to master :tears:

F'rinstance, I 'grasped' the idea of frame within about 6 minutes (2 tracks) - even though my frame was still worse than rubbish, the spaghetti arms improved and I had a far better understanding of I was supposed to be doing; an hour's private lesson covered follow the hand, 'spotlighting' and frame and tension (which is only 20 minutes on each: once again, I 'got' the idea of all of them, it was - and is still - just a case of practice/refinement/adding to the basics). The point is not to prove that I'm particularly clever (I'm naturally quite unco-ordinated with a poor brain-to-body connection at times) but to prove that if *I* can get basic concepts in a short space of time, anyone can. Once you've 'got' what you're supposed to be doing, then it can be refined/improved in freestyle and with 5 minutes input here and there from willing experts.

jive_me
21st-June-2006, 04:09 PM
Sorry I forgot. Teachers are a charitable organisation.

I don't expect anyone I teach to have to pay me if they want some extra advice or feedback.

DavidB
21st-June-2006, 04:39 PM
I don't expect anyone I teach to have to pay me if they want some extra advice or feedback.
If I teach a class or a private lesson, then I will always make myself available to answer questions/problems leading on from that class. Even if the class was weeks or months ago.
But I don't expect people to try to obtain private lessons for free. That is not fair on the people who do pay for lessons. Neither is it fair on me, or anyone who wants to dance with me.

There are a number of dance teachers for whom the income they make from dancing is a significant part of their livelihood. It makes me mad when people then expect them to work for nothing.

jive_me
21st-June-2006, 04:42 PM
I agree...as a student...I totally agree...

I was talking about on a regular class night...15 minutes after isn't a problem to me, I'm certainly not going to hold my hand out and ask for money. But if it was outside of class time ie. on a non-regular night then yeah...but then 15 minutes wouldn't be worth it...

xXx:flower:

LMC
21st-June-2006, 04:51 PM
If I teach a class or a private lesson, then I will always make myself available to answer questions/problems leading on from that class. Even if the class was weeks or months ago.
:yeah: (much appreciated it is too :nice: )

Perhaps I should clarify my 'asking for a favour' comment made earlier - if I do ask someone (whether a teacher or a dancer that I admire) for 5 minutes of their time to help me with something, I do literally mean 5 minutes (max) - and it would usually be something practical rather than theoretical i.e. along the lines of please will you dance with me and let me know how I'm doing with 'x' rather than please will you sit out and explain the exact theory behind something-very-complicated. And asking 'in advance' for a convenient time for them to help me means that they have the opportunity to avoid me or tell me "not tonight, another time" if I'm pushing my luck :D :blush:

Agree that expecting a significant amount of anyone's time (say more than two tracks) in an evening is rude. And unless I know someone *very* well, I wouldn't ask them for help that often either (5 minutes every time you see someone might be OTT too).

I rarely ask anyone to teach me a move. I go to enough moves classes.

killingtime
21st-June-2006, 05:17 PM
I think the view is that it's a dance, it's for fun, so what if you missed the lead on one particular move etc.

I think feedback is a good idea, but how to implement it? Recently managed to find myself a couple of pleasant blokes who will tell me if I've done something wrong which has been amazing for my dancing.

That's an interesting view from me. I'd find it annoying, as a follower, for the lead to stop the dance and explain what I should have been doing rather than what I did. I don't mind, as a lead, stopping the dance and showing someone a move (except once where her comments really annoyed me) if they wanted me to. I also don't think it is my place to point out things in a social dance... I'd be happy to pay attention and try and provide feedback if someone asks though. I don't mind skipping just dancing to a song to do that unless it started becoming really frequent.

I've also decided that I should really express positive comments. Sometimes I think "Wow, she did that nicely" or whatever but I'll never actually mention that and I think I should even if I'm not in feedback mode.

jive_me
21st-June-2006, 07:06 PM
That's an interesting view from me. I'd find it annoying, as a follower, for the lead to stop the dance and explain what I should have been doing rather than what I did. I don't mind, as a lead, stopping the dance and showing someone a move (except once where her comments really annoyed me) if they wanted me to. I also don't think it is my place to point out things in a social dance... I'd be happy to pay attention and try and provide feedback if someone asks though. I don't mind skipping just dancing to a song to do that unless it started becoming really frequent.

I've also decided that I should really express positive comments. Sometimes I think "Wow, she did that nicely" or whatever but I'll never actually mention that and I think I should even if I'm not in feedback mode.

I don't ask everyone...but some people I just feel comfortable saying 'oh what did I do wrong there, just didn't feel right'. And then sometimes someone will say something and they don't even need to stop the dance (depending on the move I suppose) just a 'you need to be standing more this way' etc. Hmmm, hard to explain. Either way sometimes I feel it's constructive to hear these things...but again, it's not like these guys are stopping every single dance to go through stuff...just on the odd occassion.

xXx:flower:

robd
21st-June-2006, 07:13 PM
Can you imagine? "Donkey-boy works hard at his first moves, which have improved significantly this term. He must learn not to tread on his partners feet though. Effort: B+ Overall: C-"

My most vivid memory of a school report was the variety of ways (across 10 or 11 subjects) that the different teachers managed to say I was 'Basically Lazy'.

I think that observation wouldn't be too far amiss on my dance card :nice:

El Salsero Gringo
21st-June-2006, 07:22 PM
He must learn not to tread on his partners feet though. Effort: B+ Overall: C-"Height A+


:D :D

Dress sense F-Me, or you? :D

robd
21st-June-2006, 07:31 PM
It's exceptionally hard to get any sort of feedback (or is this just me?). 99% of the time someone asks me for a dance, they dance, they say thank you and then they move on.


Quickly, I need to go home tonight :rolleyes:

I very, very rarely offer unsolicited feedback to followers (I'll occasionally advise a beginner to put her hand on my shoulder for the first move turn-out) and hardly ever get asked to give feedback. I do recall clearly (helped by the fact she was very attractive :blush: ) a lady at Southport asking me to give her advice on how to improve her dancing. I said I couldn't really help as all I could tell her was what worked well when she was dancing with me and that I had no background in teaching technique. I advised her to do a 'private' or two (and my inbuilt sense of smut means I still can't think of that phrase without sniggering) and to go to workshops, etc or ask her teachers rather than asking random leaders on the dancefloor.

Trousers
21st-June-2006, 07:46 PM
As one of the initial 'throaters' as DJ put it I can't see any real benefit from this suggestion other than to pander to individuals vanity.

If some one is getting better they will be asked to dance more surely this is the 'proof of the pudding'?

Is that too simplistic a notion?

I'll go and stand near ESG by the big wall with bullet holes in now then and see what happens!

David Bailey
21st-June-2006, 08:30 PM
OK, let's review where we are for a second.

JS(A) is an early intermediate dancer, who really wants to get some feedback so she can improve her technique. She's (I assume) an impoverished student who really can't afford a series of private lessons at £30 - £50 an hour, and I'd assume can't afford a series of workshops at, similarly, £30+ a time.

And presumably she doesn't want to go up and pester every dancer for constructive feedback on her technique, because A/ She probably won't get an honest reply, B/ She probably won't get an objective reply and C/ She hasn't got her notebook ready on the dance floor.

So, she thought a "report card", presumably similar in style to the ones people get at gyms, schools and other areas of work, could help her in this admirable effort of self-assessment and improvement, and started this thread.

2,000 people then immediately chorused "No! It is the Work Of The Devil! To even suggest an assessment system has damned you, forever!", or something along those lines - I may exaggerate a little.

A report card might help - it might not, but it might; again, I go back to the fact that a mild form of assessment works in Australia, and that it hasn't either irredeemably warped all MJ dancers there, neither has it made them nasty, competitive and negative. At least, not compared to us lot.

But other than that, at the moment, I can't see what the Ceroc system can do to help her and people like her improve. And I've not heard any other constructive and realistic suggestions so far; perhaps they were drowned out in the vast chorus of disapproval.

Seriously, people - there's no need to post a long-winded "Me too" just to say "Me too" - it gives a distinct herd impression. And as someone who's been on the receiving end of a lot of this plenty of times, it's not pleasant. Some restraint on occasion helps the debate develop, OK? :mad:

And, just because it's been nagging me:

Much as it pains me not to give ESG the opportunity to wonder once more why someone reasonably intelligent can be so stupid
I give up, I've been trying to deconstruct this sentence for ages, can someone explain it to me? :devil: :)

Sparkles
21st-June-2006, 08:38 PM
I may exaggerate a little.
:rolleyes:

Trousers
21st-June-2006, 08:49 PM
A report card might help - it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might;
Yawn


If we were given this sort of assessment would we not all start to dance in a similar way, would our styles all start to become uniform as we were being assessed on similar criteria.

Personally I love it when a girl says "I love your style" you've like hit that girls hot spots (for the dance at least) and I would hate to think I was just another sausage out of the machine. I decided on my anti sausage stategy about 4 months into dancing why would I want to be packaged up as certain grade banger now?

Gadget
21st-June-2006, 08:53 PM
Would there be a market for mini private lessons - say 15 minutes for £10?The most constructive personal feedback from a teacher I have had has been one dance and a breif conversation. (Poss for the duration of another track.) (See my thread on Improving my dancing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3116))

Recently a one second feedback while dancing with a teacher has been enough to give me something to think on/ work on/ improve. {A whistle, a gesture pointing to her eyes and mine. Interpretation: I'm loosing my focus and not dancing with my partner, I should be watching them more and maintaining a bit more eye contact... and not looking at my feet :rolleyes:}

I think that a two track/15min 'micro lesson' is a great idea: dance with the person for one track {or watch them dance} and give them feedback from that dance during the second.
Like all teaching - it's what you do outside of the lesson that makes the difference; the teacher just points you in the right direction.

ducasi
21st-June-2006, 09:15 PM
All the nay-sayers, consider this...

At least Ash thinks it would be useful for her. Therefore it is a good idea for her.

Assuming she's not from a planet all of her own, presumably there are other people who would benefit from a report card.

ducasi
21st-June-2006, 09:26 PM
If we were given this sort of assessment would we not all start to dance in a similar way, would our styles all start to become uniform as we were being assessed on similar criteria. It's not about assessing style – it's about assessing technique. Things like connection, lead, floorcraft, musicality...

As we've seen on the "let's talk about style..." it's been hard enough to pin down what "style" actually means without trying to assess it.

jive_me
21st-June-2006, 09:32 PM
I fail to see how a report card system would make everyone into clones of each other. But then if that is the way it was seen then maybe it could be used for people who aspire to become things like demonstrators (yes I knooooow that if you're a demo you have your own style, but I'm talking about how when you show a move you have to do it in a certain way...) etc. Just another point to the debate really :flower: :flower: :flower:

xXx:flower:

David Franklin
21st-June-2006, 09:48 PM
At least Ash thinks it would be useful for her. Therefore it is a good idea for her.I'm afraid I don't really see how that follows. More precisely, I'm prepared to stipulate that a report that accurately describes the areas that need improvement, and how such improvement should be achieved, would be useful. I just don't think it's reasonable to assume such a report will be forthcoming.

In a case like this, the devil is in the details. Even something so simple as what will be assessed isn't clear; you said:


It's not about assessing style
While the original poster specifically said (emphasis mine):


personally, like many others I am sure, am always thinking about my dancing and how I could improve it-style, technique etc.
I don't think the "report card" is a bad idea because it's against "the MJ ethos" as some people have been suggesting. What I do think is that kind of feedback is basically what you'd expect to get from a private lesson, and that is the best way of providing it. (A separate argument is that it should be easier and cheaper to get private lessons. It's the norm in most other dances, but private lessons are still very unusual inside Ceroc I think).

Going back again to the original post:


Alot of the time when I am dancing I will follow a move and think "I wonder if I am following that wrong"; usually it is the same moves so perhaps I am right in thinking so.
If you are having problems following particular moves, if you don't explain that to your teacher, thenyou are pretty much relying on luck if you hope to have the problems pinpointed during an assessment, or even a private lesson. There are 600? Ceroc moves, and you'd probably only do 30 or so in a dance. Far better to specifically tell your teacher "I'm having difficulties following X, would you go through it with me and see if I'm doing anything wrong?"

bigdjiver
21st-June-2006, 10:43 PM
Yankers: :devil: say "Ow!" grimace, smile then carry valiantly on. If partner tries to discuss just say that it is an old Rigby / Football / "dancing with yankers" injury, don't worry about it.:devil:

If you are worried about your technique / style then getting someone to video you will tell you something. If you worry about what you see then the first step might be to pick a "fault" and watch someone else doing the same thing, and learn from them. The second might be to ask partner to practise that thing and give advice, and, if that fails, the third might be to go to a teacher.

In all probability the one thing that the video will tell you is that partner was enjoying themselves. The one thing that I will tell you is that partner worrying unduly about how well they are dancing is a big No-No.

El Salsero Gringo
21st-June-2006, 11:01 PM
All the nay-sayers, consider this...

At least Ash thinks it would be useful for her. Therefore it is a good idea for her.
There's nothing stopping Ash from taking an A6 index card, and marking some categories on it - presumably the ones she feels are worth grading. Then she can ask for a dance with a teacher, and get a A, B, C or whatever in one category at a time.

But the minute something "official" turns up, printed with a Ceroc logo on it, and issued by 'head office', that's something different entirely.
Assuming she's not from a planet all of her own, presumably there are other people who would benefit from a report card.Are the people who would benefit from it, the people that one would like to benefit from it, and most importantly - the people who suffer for its absence the most - are they the ones who would use it? I'm pretty certain not.

jive_me
21st-June-2006, 11:13 PM
A report card isn't just grading things A, B, C though...it's about receiving constructive criticism on things. I think to grade your dancing could actually be a rather negative thing to do...but asking for criticism would be positive to those who wanted it.

xXx:flower:

LMC
22nd-June-2006, 10:53 AM
Fantastic rant DJ :worthy:

I've already addressed all the issues in your post, but since they obviously got mired in the general confusion I'm going to repeat myself anyway:


expense of private lessons & workshops
If someone wants something bad enough, they will find a way to pay for it. One private lesson/workshop a month is ample information to try to take in for someone who is presumably dancing socially. What was wrong with my birthday money suggestion?


And presumably she doesn't want to go up and pester every dancer for constructive feedback on her technique ... etc
BZZZZT - exaggeration. See previous posts of mine (and others) for solutions.


So, she thought a "report card", presumably similar in style to the ones people get at gyms, schools and other areas of work, could help her in this admirable effort of self-assessment and improvement, and started this thread.
Fine if she wants to do one herself. However, her initial query of "wouldn't it be good if you could get...?" suggests that she wants something official - which would be Evil. IMO. Someone (ducasi I think) asked Ash for clarification of whether she was after an official system.


But other than that, at the moment, I can't see what the Ceroc system can do to help her and people like her improve. And I've not heard any other constructive and realistic suggestions so far; perhaps they were drowned out in the vast chorus of disapproval.
:mad: I refer the honourable gentleman to the comment I made earlier about help BEING THERE for those who ASK FOR IT. Together with other suggestions that have helped me obtain that help in the past. The brutal truth is that you have to make some effort to get what you want.


And, just because it's been nagging me:



Much as it pains me not to give ESG the opportunity to wonder once more why someone reasonably intelligent can be so stupid

I give up, I've been trying to deconstruct this sentence for ages, can someone explain it to me?
Nope :na:

Finally:


Anyway! Wouldn't it be nice if we could get dance report cards, just like being back at school, (just like being back at school? :eek: no thanks, no WAY - LMC) that way we would know what to do to improve. .... snip ... wouldn't it be cool? .... snip .... What do you all think?
She wanted opinions. She's got them.

Sorry Ash, and please don't take it personally: I think you're lovely and although I disagree with your opinion, I would absolutely defend your right to stick with it. As DJ said earlier, you've raised a great debate.

MartinHarper
22nd-June-2006, 11:23 AM
Would there be a market for mini private lessons - say 15 minutes for £10?

Private lessons seem quite daunting. There are tricky decisions like who to ask, what to ask for, how long, where, alone or with a partner, if with a partner, who, etc. In a way, there's too much choice, and it's slightly paralysing. The relatively high cost adds to that. Also, it's not always clear who is offering what. Whereas I can look at websites for info on regular MJ classes, the marketplace seems less clear for privates.

killingtime
22nd-June-2006, 11:33 AM
Assuming she's not from a planet all of her own, presumably there are other people who would benefit from a report card.

I think people might well benefit from feedback, in whatever form, but at the same time that grading of people could really put people off. When I started Ceroc I was really nervous but the welcoming atmosphere really helped make me feel comfortable. I found it difficult to freestyle with my four moves and had a big bunch of new stuff to worry about. I'm not sure someone telling me I'd get a report card on my progress would have helped me. I'd also wonder if a bad report could have knocked what confidence I had of my dancing ability and stopped me coming back entirely (I only got big headed in my second month :rolleyes: ).

ducasi
22nd-June-2006, 12:02 PM
I think people might well benefit from feedback, in whatever form, but at the same time that grading of people could really put people off. When I started Ceroc I was really nervous but the welcoming atmosphere really helped make me feel comfortable. I found it difficult to freestyle with my four moves and had a big bunch of new stuff to worry about. I'm not sure someone telling me I'd get a report card on my progress would have helped me. I'd also wonder if a bad report could have knocked what confidence I had of my dancing ability and stopped me coming back entirely (I only got big headed in my second month :rolleyes: ).
For the same reason that schools don't give report cards to primary 1 pupils after a month of attendance, I wouldn't expect Ceroc to do the same...

I think you'll also find that the report cards you get in primary school differ from those you get in secondary school.

David Franklin
22nd-June-2006, 12:21 PM
Private lessons seem quite daunting. There are tricky decisions like who to ask, what to ask for, how long, where, alone or with a partner, if with a partner, who, etc. In a way, there's too much choice, and it's slightly paralysing. The relatively high cost adds to that. Also, it's not always clear who is offering what. Whereas I can look at websites for info on regular MJ classes, the marketplace seems less clear for privates. What if there were a number of 15 minute "slots" available for booking a mini-private with your regular MJ teacher? That sorts out who and where, and cutting the duration to 15 minutes hopefully reduces the cost. In practical terms I think you'd want to provide your own partner in most instances.

As for your other questions, if, say, Ceroc got behind this like they do their workshops, then there would be a webpage explaining most of it, although some stuff would probably depend on specifics that you'd discuss with the teacher.

I think as much as anything, there's a perception that "only really serious dancers do privates". But if Ceroc encouraged everyone to "try to get one private lesson a year", (or whatever), I think people would be a lot less intimidated by the concept.

The biggest problem I see with this is that Ceroc tends to promote the view that "all our teachers are experts and can help you with any dance problem", so you might get them trying to teach areas they don't really understand well themselves. Ideally they'd just own up to it and recommend a different teacher.

Twirly
22nd-June-2006, 01:08 PM
I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other on the report card system, but one way to get around the cost of private lessons could be to club together with 2-3 friends and have a mini-workshop. Less expensive, less intimidating. Just a thought.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-June-2006, 01:12 PM
I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other on the report card system, but one way to get around the cost of private lessons could be to club together with 2-3 friends and have a mini-workshop. Less expensive, less intimidating. Just a thought.I expect most teachers would charge more for teaching more than one person (or a couple) at once. Particularly if you want a workshop - they'd have to do all the advance work involved in preparing one.

Yliander
22nd-June-2006, 01:39 PM
ARRGHHH!!!!! For crying out loud

Report cards/assessment are not Evil!! They are just different which does not make them wrong!!!

Those on here that have been putting a case forward for report cards/assessment are not talking about a mega you must get all A’s or we won’t let you on the dance floor!!!! Merely a simple technique/skill assessment to help guide the development of those that choose it.

In my experience as may choose it as don’t and no one looks down on those that have or haven’t done them.

*throws up hands in despair and goes in search of very large drink*

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-June-2006, 01:57 PM
Report cards/assessment are not Evil!! They are just different which does not make them wrong!!!

Those on here that have been putting a case forward for report cards/assessment are not talking about a mega you must get all A’s or we won’t let you on the dance floor!!!!I don't think anyone who's against the idea thinks you are saying that.
Merely a simple technique/skill assessment to help guide the development of those that choose it....and whose mere existence we feel will dissuade many from taking up Ceroc. Which does make them evil, in fact. It's good that you don't feel that way - but many do, and we want them to come to Ceroc and enjoy themselves sufficiently that we are ready to forgo the advantages of having a formal assessment system for those that want it.
In my experience as may choose it as don’t and no one looks down on those that have or haven’t done them.Your experience can't speak for those who were put off from Ceroc by the atmosphere that assessments create. Which is why it makes for a great topic of discussion.

Yliander
22nd-June-2006, 02:04 PM
Your experience can't speak for those who were put off from Ceroc by the atmosphere that assessments create. How do you know what sort of atmosphere they create?!?! I have experienced Ceroc with and with out the opportunity for assessment - so feel pretty confiedent in what I am talking about - both have their pros and cons and as a teacher didn't notice a difference in retention rates with or with out it.


I don't think anyone who's against the idea thinks you are saying that....and whose mere existence we feel will dissuade many from taking up Ceroc. Which does make them evil, in fact. .... *snip* .... Which is why it makes for a great topic of discussion. discussion is good - but saying that something is evil is not discussion it is merely small minded bigotry.

*dives into her drink*

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-June-2006, 02:05 PM
How do you know what sort of atmosphere they create?!?! I have experienced Ceroc with and with out the opportunity for assessment - so feel pretty confiedent in what I am talking about - both have their pros and cons and as a teacher didn't notice a difference in retention rates with or with out it.

discussion is good - but saying that something is evil is not discussion it is merely small minded bigotry.

*dives into her drink*La la la ... not listening ... la la la ... evil evil evil ...

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-June-2006, 02:13 PM
I have experienced Ceroc with and with out the opportunity for assessment - so feel pretty confiedent in what I am talking about - both have their pros and consJust out of curiosity then, what do *you* think are the cons?
saying that something is evil is not discussion it is merely small minded bigotry.Of course, that's me to a tee - a small minded bigot.

LMC
22nd-June-2006, 02:26 PM
discussion is good - but saying that something is evil is not discussion it is merely small minded bigotry.
[sixe=1]It's also a light-hearted exaggeration[/size]

And inconsistent with the philosophy that Evil is Good....

Is the culture of "must achieve to be worthy" as strong in Australia as it is in the UK? If an assessment system was available in Ceroc here I suspect that there would be a significant minority, if not a majority, that did get obsessed with such a system. Of course, I don't *know* this - but introducing any quantitative 'measure' of ability in any activity leads to greater competitiveness - and this is not always positive.

Sport and leisure are fantastic for bringing people together, and in my work for a charity, I have seen how many thousands of people have had their lives changed by sports and arts and the improved self-esteem/discipline that participation can bring. Unfortunately, healthy pride in achievements (your own or your team's) can tip over into feelings of superiority and contempt for those who haven't achieved so much in quantitative terms. {MODE=Bleeding obvious}The World Cup being a case in point.{/MODE}

Without any pieces of paper to say so, I know I'm a better dancer than I was this time last year, thanks to so many people who have helped me along the way (even if some of them are Evil and think there should be some kind of official assessment). If you are only competing with yourself, then no formal assessment system is necessary. It might make it easier for you to measure your progress - but it's not necessary.

The only measure I'm interested in is whether people enjoy dancing with me.

killingtime
22nd-June-2006, 02:44 PM
Without any pieces of paper to say so, I know I'm a better dancer than I was this time last year, thanks to so many people who have helped me along the way (even if some of them are Evil and think there should be some kind of official assessment). If you are only competing with yourself, then no formal assessment system is necessary. It might make it easier for you to measure your progress - but it's not necessary.

Well some form of assessments are used in Jango, aren't they? As you progress you get to particular colour moves that you should be able to do and that way, if a workshop says it's for Green, Blue or whatever then you should have a reasonable idea whether you'd be able to cope with it or not. I'm not sure (and I don't think) that there is any assessment at the end of a given colour to say that you are doing alright with those moves.

We also loosely assess the abilities of people in workshops; that is saying something is an advanced workshop or what have you. These workshops will make assumptions that a group of intermediates, say, will know what a First Move is and those people who don't know the fundamentals probably shouldn't be there. Taking that a step further would people feel comfortable about being assessed that they meet the requirements of the workshop before they are allowed to sign up to it so they don't hold back the class?

LMC
22nd-June-2006, 02:54 PM
Haven't done enough Jango to answer that one, but think the colour cards are based on attendance rather than competence. In terms of dancing ability, then you might get me to call it semi-formal if you held a gun to my head, but I would call it informal - we all know that some people need more time than others to get to the same level of competence.

Sure we loosely assess the abilities of people for workshops. That's not formal though izzit?

Ceroc London specifies that you have to have done 30 intermediate lessons before signing up/paying for some workshops online. As there is no 'central' database (IIRC) then AFAIK this isn't checked.

David Franklin
22nd-June-2006, 03:06 PM
Is the culture of "must achieve to be worthy" as strong in Australia as it is in the UK? If an assessment system was available in Ceroc here I suspect that there would be a significant minority, if not a majority, that did get obsessed with such a system. Of course, I don't *know* this - but introducing any quantitative 'measure' of ability in any activity leads to greater competitiveness - and this is not always positive.Again, I think everyone is using their own interpretation of "assessment", with a lot of confusion along the way. My understanding of the Australian card is that it is analagous to a driving test: "Do you understand lead/follow basics? Can you do a spin and stay on balance? Can you do a drop safely?". It doesn't particularly cause competitiveness because it's just a pass/fail assessment (rather than a %age score you can compete over), and because the baseline is fairly low(*) - just as having driving tests and even advanced driving tests doesn't making everyone start racing each other in the carpark. On the other hand, I'm not sure it provides the kind of feedback the original poster was looking for; certainly feedback is still useful even after you've got all the available level cards.

(*) Having said that, I understand that in Australia you're expected to be able to do double spins for an advanced card. Which would rule out at least one UK Open champion I'm aware of!

As far as the Jango cards go; I know Amir talked about implementing cards a couple of years ago, with the idea that people would be tested before moving up a level, and that quite a few people were put off by the idea of being tested.

LMC
22nd-June-2006, 03:17 PM
Even if it's just as formal from the POV of recording/testing, the passport system would be the most generally "acceptable" IMO - but if introduced (and I'm still against) should be competence/safety based - rather than style/number of moves/ability to double spin based.

To be fair, I've got a bit single tracked on this whole "report card just like school" thing :blush:. Sorry. As you say DF, the passport system doesn't really supply the feedback that Ash seems to be after which I guess is why I've been arguing along the "no scoring" lines. A simple pass/fail leaves far less room for agonising over limitations and pointless and petty competition than would an A-E scoring system.

Yliander
22nd-June-2006, 03:21 PM
Just out of curiosity then, what do *you* think are the cons? cons are

Administrating - it can be a real pain
some people can take it to seriously – but these are the ones that are going to take things seriously assessment or not
How terrifiedly nervous one can get when asking for the assessment (me being a case in point – heart was in my mouth when I did my blue card assessment - who knew a 3 min song could feel SO long - although I had been told I should be trying for my gold card – which I have still not been able to face)
Reassuring exsisting customers/staff that is not going to destroy life as we know it


my experience is that those that only know a system with assessment are less bothered by it than those that haven't had it.

At Ceroc Perth (Aus) we implimented a beginners card and assessment and as a teacher I know I had strong reservations about how this would go down - but it was done as a new year innovation - and was presented as exactly what it was a simple way for people to get the most out of intermidate classes by moving up when they were ready - which is different for everyone and while everyone was encouraged to do it - we didn't force people to - no big bouncer at the door asking to see your card.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-June-2006, 03:35 PM
Well some form of assessments are used in Jango, aren't they?I'm not a Jango regular, but I've been to a few classes and I've never heard of an assessment involved.
my experience is that those that only know a system with assessment are less bothered by it than those that haven't had it.I still can't see that it's worth having a system that bothers anyone at all.

spindr
22nd-June-2006, 03:40 PM
I'm not a Jango regular, but I've been to a few classes and I've never heard of an assessment involved.I still can't see that it's worth having a system that bothers anyone at all.
See item number 3 (http://www.fusiondance.freeservers.com/aboutjango.htm).

SpinDr

LMC
22nd-June-2006, 03:41 PM
I still can't see that it's worth having a system that bothers anyone at all.

:yeah:

What's wrong with just having a good time? :nice:

EDIT: Having just looked at the Jango page, it's a fair point that Yliander makes about 'never having known anything else'. Assessment at Jango wouldn't bother me (think I might have a white card somewhere actually). However, MJ markets itself as "anyone can dance" and is huge and mainstream. Jango is aimed at people who are more serious about dancing - less emphasis on the social aspects. Even so, it seems to be a 'faith' system AFAICT.

David Bailey
22nd-June-2006, 03:51 PM
Well some form of assessments are used in Jango, aren't they?
What? :eek: :eek:
Then that proves it - assessment must be Just Plain Wrong. :innocent:

I think, to vastly over-generalise, most of the in-principle objections to an assessment / report-card system are based on culture - ie. the potential to put people off, yes?

So, I guess this can be split into two camps:
- "Assessment will never work in MJ in the UK. Period"
- "Assessment is too difficult to implement without losing business"

Who's in what camp?

LMC
22nd-June-2006, 03:59 PM
Who's in what camp?
OBLIG: Where's the poll?

David Franklin
22nd-June-2006, 04:06 PM
So, I guess this can be split into two camps:
- "Assessment will never work in MJ in the UK. Period"
- "Assessment is too difficult to implement without losing business"

Who's in what camp?I don't think I'm in either camp. It all depends on what the purpose of the assessment is. And (repeating myself again), I think pretty much everyone has different ideas on that.

I think I'd agree that assessment "for the sake of it" is pretty much a non-starter - few people actively enjoy being tested (though a minority do). So the question is, what's the incentive for the student? What do you get out of it?

The obvious reason for assessment (and, I believe, the motivation for assessment at Jango and Ceroc in Oz/NZ) is that it's hard to have a "real" advanced class without requiring a certain level of ability amongst the students. If being assessed is a requirement of doing an advanced workshop, and enough people want to do that workshop, then I don't think you'd have a huge problem persuading people to be tested.

On the other hand, I really don't want to see this sidetracked into a "are advanced workshops with entry requirements elitist?" discussion...

Yliander
22nd-June-2006, 04:06 PM
I still can't see that it's worth having a system that bothers anyone at all. and some people are bothered by no assessment

so an opt in assessment system seems to be a good option...

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-June-2006, 04:12 PM
See item number 3 (http://www.fusiondance.freeservers.com/aboutjango.htm).

SpinDrAha ... I see it's on the website ... out of curiosity, is this actually in effect at Jango then? Do the Jango mob get their cards stamped?

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-June-2006, 04:14 PM
and some people are bothered by no assessment

so an opt in assessment system seems to be a good option...I agree. I just *love* the opt-in assessment system we have at the moment: you opt in by asking someone what they think of your dancing. You can even draw up your own coloured cards with wax crayon. Works great. (Make sure not to go over the lines of the ceroc logo when doing the colouring-in. That would invalidate the card.) Doesn't put anyone off. Very light touch, you might say. Fantastic.

killingtime
22nd-June-2006, 04:22 PM
Aha ... I see it's on the website ... out of curiosity, is this actually in effect at Jango then? Do the Jango mob get their cards stamped?

A true Jango master needs no stamps.

Dizzy
22nd-June-2006, 05:06 PM
Aha ... I see it's on the website ... out of curiosity, is this actually in effect at Jango then? Do the Jango mob get their cards stamped?

Yes, it is in effect but they are purely optional.

The Jango card system came into existance purely because there was new beginners starting every week and Amir did not want to keep repeating the same moves to people who went week by week. The card allow him to teach the more technical Jango routines to the people who have been taught the fundimental concepts and basics of Jango techniques. The cards don't rate us as dancers but rate the classes that are taught.

David Bailey
22nd-June-2006, 05:17 PM
Yes, it is in effect but they are purely optional.
I'm fairly sure no-one's said any card / assessment system should be mandatory. I'd be vehemently against mandatory cards myself.


The Jango card system came into existance purely because there was new beginners starting every week and Amir did not want to keep repeating the same moves to people who went week by week. The card allow him to teach the more technical Jango routines to the people who have been taught the fundimental concepts and basics of Jango techniques.
And that seems like an eminently sensible solution to me - seems analogous to the system in Australia.


The cards don't rate us as dancers but rate the classes that are taught.

:confused: That may well be true in practice, but the site seems to say otherwise - for example:

You start with a white card, and then work through yellow, to green, to blue, to brown and then black. At each level there are certain skills and moves you should make sure you master.
So it seems to imply cards are for dancers rather than for classes.

And the assessment / upgrade system seems to be based on "how many classes you do" plus "special moving up workshop". Again, how much of this system operates in reality, and how much is "ideal", I dunno.

But I just spotted that there's a "Yellow Card Level Workshop" on the 6th of July, so that seems to imply some of the system is operational.

And I'm now left wondering what an Eskimo move is... :what:

Sparkles
22nd-June-2006, 08:02 PM
And I'm now left wondering what an Eskimo move is... :what:

you lead your partner into it by rubbing noses with them :rolleyes:

Lynn
22nd-June-2006, 08:10 PM
I think I'd agree that assessment "for the sake of it" is pretty much a non-starter - few people actively enjoy being tested (though a minority do). So the question is, what's the incentive for the student? What do you get out of it? I agree that assessment for the sake of it is pointless. And that mandatory assessment does not have a place in what for many people is a predominately social activity.

But if someone is a 'student', someone who is actually investing some effort into learning something, rather than turning up, doing a few new moves and having a fun evening out, then well thought out, structured assessment would be of benefit.

The obvious reason for assessment (and, I believe, the motivation for assessment at Jango and Ceroc in Oz/NZ) is that it's hard to have a "real" advanced class without requiring a certain level of ability amongst the students. OK - we are talking about two different things really - assessment in terms of reaching certain requirements to get on to the next level (usually the function of cumulative feedback in educational terms eg the end of term exams) or assessment in terms of giving feedback to the student in order to help them improve (formative assessment). The latter is what I feel is valuable to dancers (and all learners, I would always build this into any course I was teaching).

We all seek feedback in MJ in one way or another. We are mostly forced to self assess (compare our dancing with others, with how we danced 6 months ago etc) or we unconciously seek it from others ('more people are asking me for dances, I must be improving' etc), or we conciously and actively seek it (asking more experienced dancers, booking private lessons).

If I knew I wasn't going to be able to get feedback on my dancing in some way or other, I would give up.

Gadget
22nd-June-2006, 09:43 PM
Is dancing(MJ) a sport or an art?

I think this is the key to the whole thing: For those wanting to compete and drive forward and get formal assesments, it's a sport. For those just wanting to get better because it's nice and to progress themselves, it's an art.

Feedback in both is welcomed - but formal judging and specific rules and guidelines lend themselves more towards the 'sport' mentality, while a more relaxed "what do you think?" is the artistic temprement.
I may be bias, but I am very glad that the ethos of CerocScotland seems to be the 'artistic' one rather than a 'sporting' one :clap:

Freya
22nd-June-2006, 10:00 PM
Is dancing(MJ) a sport or an art?

I think this is the key to the whole thing: For those wanting to compete and drive forward and get formal assesments, it's a sport. For those just wanting to get better because it's nice and to progress themselves, it's an art.

Feedback in both is welcomed - but formal judging and specific rules and guidelines lend themselves more towards the 'sport' mentality, while a more relaxed "what do you think?" is the artistic temprement.
I may be bias, but I am very glad that the ethos of CerocScotland seems to be the 'artistic' one rather than a 'sporting' one :clap:
:yeah: Gadget i love how you've phrased this comment!

Currently i'm being continually assessed at uni and now on placement due to the nature of my course! IT is a very stressful time and I ceroc helps me relax...ok if you've met me I'm not the most chilled out of Dancers...but when I'm dancing I can forget all about the other stuff. If Ceroc was to start handing out report cards then It would probably lose part of it appeal!

I'm still learning and enjoying doing workshops and the classes! I love it when people try new things on me and I get to have a play around with moves! feedback is an important part of learning but I'll do it on my own terms! When I want feedback or a deep look at my dancing I'll ask!

But right now any assessment I'll crumble!!!!

ducasi
23rd-June-2006, 12:01 AM
But right now any assessment I'll crumble!!!! So don't ask for one!

It's like learning to drive... Once you've passed your test you're done, free to go and enjoy driving as much as you want...

If you want to improve your driving there are courses you can go on... like the advanced driver's course.

And if you want to test how good a driver you are there's an advanced driving test you can do – but no-one makes you do it.

Does its existence make you less likely to want to drive? I don't think so...

But if you want to find out how good a driver you are – it's ideal.

ginger M
23rd-June-2006, 09:44 AM
So long as it's voluntary, it's a good idea. I wouldn't like it personally, and I am wondering if the 'better' dancers at my local Ceroc venue would be happy to be judged by Ceroc teachers. Ceroc for my is a hobby, a social activity, and just a bit of fun. This could make it a all bit competitive.

David Bailey
27th-June-2006, 09:06 PM
OK, I've looked at the discussion on the Ozzie forum (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=2035) about this, and I've initiated a discussion on the MJDA forum (http://www.mjda.org/forum/showthread.php?t=99) (regarding the Jango card system) as well.

And most of the comments from these two sets of dancers seem to be either "not-bothered" or positive. There is a little hesitation and caution, but nothing like the vehemence in the discussion on this thread and on this previous thread about a card system (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7450).

The more I read about it, the more I think it'd be a Good Thing - assuming it's implemented in a positive way, of course. And, strikingly, I couldn't find any major comments from any people who've experienced both card and non-card systems; in fact, many of the comments from these people were highly positive.

So, is it just a case of fearing change?

Twirly
27th-June-2006, 09:27 PM
I don't have the time right now to read these, but I did have a thought on Sunday after my intermediate 2 workshop - aren't the workshops the ideal place to get this feedback? Only those who are keen to improve their dancing will invest the time and money in the workshops, and these might well be the same people who would like the feedback. The groups are smaller too.

Just a thought.

jivecat
27th-June-2006, 10:13 PM
OK, I've looked at the discussion on the Ozzie forum (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=2035) about this, and I've initiated a discussion on the MJDA forum (http://www.mjda.org/forum/showthread.php?t=99) (regarding the Jango card system) as well.

And most of the comments from these two sets of dancers seem to be either "not-bothered" or positive. There is a little hesitation and caution, but nothing like the vehemence in the discussion on this thread and on this previous thread about a card system (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7450).

The more I read about it, the more I think it'd be a Good Thing - assuming it's implemented in a positive way, of course. And, strikingly, I couldn't find any major comments from any people who've experienced both card and non-card systems; in fact, many of the comments from these people were highly positive.

So, is it just a case of fearing change?

I think the two groups of people (Jango attenders who also read the MJDA forum and the average Ceroc punter) are possibly not really comparable. In my, admittedly, very limited experience it seems to me that regular Jango attendees are somewhat more likely to be keen, motivated dance-achievement junkies than the ordinary Joe/Josephine Bloggs who turns up at a provincial week-night for a few beers and the chance to chat up a few of the opposite.

My experience of all the leaders at the Jango workshop I did was that everyone, without exception, was there to learn as much as they could, they were humble about their own shortcomings and very receptive to hearing advice; I hope the same was true of the followers. Also, the teachers were highly respected and good dance skills were highly valued. I don't think these features are to be found so strongly at an average week night so we are not comparing like with like. (Although it would be nice to see them fostered.) In other words the card system may work at Jango but it may not work elsewhere.

I think a card system would have to be voluntary, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that a card would be compulsory for people wanting to attend specialised, technically difficult workshops. If people didn't like it they have a choice between not attending or earning the card. But as long as a good number of workshops were open to all I don't think this need be an issue.

DavidB
27th-June-2006, 10:43 PM
Why not have 'intermediate' taxi dancers? Not so much to dance with intermediates, but to give feedback. I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.

ducasi
28th-June-2006, 12:30 AM
Why not have 'intermediate' taxi dancers? Not so much to dance with intermediates, but to give feedback. I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.
Where can I sign up for that job?! :D :devil:

Heather
28th-June-2006, 08:02 AM
Where can I sign up for that job?! :D :devil:


Well Ducasi, judging by your comment, you have already self assessed and judged yourself to be a 'good intermediate dancer' . :wink:

:hug:
Heather

LMC
28th-June-2006, 08:07 AM
Why not have 'intermediate' taxi dancers? Not so much to dance with intermediates, but to give feedback. I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.
Fab idea, although I'd take some persuasion to go into uniform - I only feedback if I'm in pain or if asked.

As long as it was made clear that intermediate taxis will only give feedback if asked (or if their partner is hurting them, obviously). Otherwise people might be too scared to dance with them!

David Bailey
28th-June-2006, 08:37 AM
I think the two groups of people (Jango attenders who also read the MJDA forum and the average Ceroc punter) are possibly not really comparable.
Quite possibly - but what about Australia? It's in place there for the "average Ceroc punter".

(And doesn't everyone aspire to be a Jango-ite anyway? :devil: )


Why not have 'intermediate' taxi dancers? Not so much to dance with intermediates, but to give feedback. I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.
I think this is a good idea ("Stretch limos" - hey, I like the term, I'll keep on flogging it), but this is separate - there's a whole big issue of Proper Taxi Training / Career Progression which is best dealt with in a separate thread. Or possibly, reviving one of the many old threads dealing with this...

Whichever way you look at it, assessment is assessment, and sometimes, you'll hear things you don't want to - either in a card or from a dancer. But this is how we develop and grow in any field. If we don't know what we're doing wrong, how can we fix it?

And as of now, Ceroc UK has no assessment process at all. Which is IMO a Bad Thing.

MartinHarper
28th-June-2006, 08:39 AM
As long as it was made clear that intermediate taxis will only give feedback if asked (or if their partner is hurting them, obviously). Otherwise people might be too scared to dance with them!

Then they can dance with all the people who aren't intermediate taxis.

El Salsero Gringo
28th-June-2006, 08:55 AM
Fab idea, although I'd take some persuasion to go into uniformAssuming you're good enough to be asked of course...:nice:
As long as it was made clear that intermediate taxis will only give feedback if asked (or if their partner is hurting them, obviously). Otherwise people might be too scared to dance with them!Differentiating between two kinds of feedback - "ouch, you're gripping my thumb/breaking my arm" - and "your step back isn't quite parallel and do *this* with your spare arm" - I'd say everyone was qualified to give the first, and virtually nobody was qualified to give the second. I can't see that taking some intermediate dancers and putting another shirt on them would suddenly endow them with new gifts of dance judgement and exposition.
I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.OK, David ... your idea - are you up for it?

LMC
28th-June-2006, 08:57 AM
Then they can dance with all the people who aren't intermediate taxis.
Whilst the intermediate taxis are stood around bored out of their tiny minds because no-one wants to dance with them :tears:

The basis of saying that stage announcements on the role of intermediate taxis might be necessary (and are definitely desirable) is that if I'm taxi-ing and run out of beginners to dance with (which happens quite quickly if there are only 3 or 4 and I've already danced with them all at least once, twice if they will let me :D), then I head for people I don't recognise. And sometimes get the reaction "I'm not a beginner". It's easy to say then "I know, but I've run out of beginners and I've never danced with you, where do you normally dance etc etc blah blah blah... " And once they know that I know that they are not a beginner and won't be commenting on their dancing* they are happy to dance with me. HOWEVER, intermediate taxis would be there for anyone. So IMO, it needs to be made clear both to the taxis (stretch limos, whatever) and the punters that feedback on anything other than pain should/will not be given unless the 'punter' asks for it.

* (except I've had to on a couple of occasions for grippers/yankers and they get VERY upset - I get a much more adverse reaction than when I'm out of uniform)

Gadget
28th-June-2006, 01:07 PM
Why not have 'intermediate' taxi dancers? Not so much to dance with intermediates, but to give feedback. I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.
I like the idea, but I think that the way to work it would be if there was a "booking sheet" at the front desk and names get taken/put down - more for time management than anything else. (How many people would actually "use" this service? - Would the 'intermediate-taxi' simply seek out the next person on the list, if they were already dancing, then the one after...?)

Perhaps T-shirts with "ASK ME FOR FEEDBACK" on them (nothing like being subtle :wink: )

Perhaps these taxis could take notes on what advice was given and stuff so that the next time they danced they could comment on any improvements made.

I think I would perhaps volenteer for a system like this... as long as it didn't take up too much free-style time :whistle: {which is the main reason I don't want to be a Taxi}

DavidB
28th-June-2006, 01:25 PM
Some people already have a system whereby regular feedback on your mistakes is freely given. It is called 'marriage'.

Donna
28th-June-2006, 01:37 PM
Some people already have a system whereby regular feedback on your mistakes is freely given. It is called 'marriage'.


:eek: :rofl:

El Salsero Gringo
28th-June-2006, 02:39 PM
Perhaps these taxis could take notes on what advice was given and stuff so that the next time they danced they could comment on any improvements made.

I think I would perhaps volenteer for a system like this... as long as it didn't take up too much free-style time :whistle: {which is the main reason I don't want to be a Taxi}No offence, Gadget, but the people who would spend their time with a clipboard critiqueing my dancing and making notes 'for next time' - voluntarily - are, I suspect, the last people I'd want to take advice from!

robd
28th-June-2006, 04:06 PM
No offence, Gadget, but the people who would spend their time with a clipboard critiqueing my dancing and making notes 'for next time' - voluntarily - are, I suspect, the last people I'd want to take advice from!

Even if their notes simply read

* Remember to remove industrial size camera & carry-bag (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5930&d=1151251392) before taking the floor

?

El Salsero Gringo
28th-June-2006, 04:46 PM
Even if their notes simply read

* Remember to remove industrial size camera & carry-bag (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5930&d=1151251392) before taking the floor

?If the camera and bag are better followers (and they might be...) then yes!

Trousers
28th-June-2006, 05:50 PM
Darn and I thought this thread dead!

Look if you want someone to pick on your dancing there are plenty of people who will! There are also plenty who will give advice. Just ask for it.

Thats very simply the simple answer. Ask!






Ok Ok this threads dead Whatever happened here's long gone. The areas secure. Lets make our way through to operations and write some new threads.

Over and Out!

David Bailey
28th-June-2006, 08:41 PM
Darn and I thought this thread dead!
It's The Thread That Can't Die :devil:



Look if you want someone to pick on your dancing there are plenty of people who will! There are also plenty who will give advice. Just ask for it.

Thats very simply the simple answer. Ask!
Sorry, but I honestly think that some form of, for want of a better word "structure" in MJ is the only way the dance will progress.

And that structure should involve things such as:
- mandatory criteria, regular reviews, career progression, support and training for taxi dancers
- available and well-publicised mini-assessments by someone qualified to give them for dancers at various stages
- more defined criteria for levels of class

So I'll keep banging on about these topics, I'm afraid.

Trousers
28th-June-2006, 09:29 PM
. . . . . is the only way the dance will progress.
Huh? No really Huh?


. . . . .So I'll keep banging on about these topics, I'm afraid.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. . . .!

Please God tonight as I pray for all the new dancers can I ask a boon? Please please God can we have our real Dark DJ back?
Hmmmm mayhap I talk in the wrong direction. . . .

Oi Beelzebub Give us the real DJ back!!

Juju
28th-June-2006, 09:53 PM
I have to say I'm one of those who disagree vehemently. I've read this thread, I've also looked at the other thread about blue cards and gold cards, and I still don't like the idea. It's not Ash's idea of a report card which puts me off so much, but all of this....


Sorry, but I honestly think that some form of, for want of a better word "structure" in MJ is the only way the dance will progress.

And that structure should involve things such as:
- mandatory criteria, regular reviews, career progression, support and training for taxi dancers
- available and well-publicised mini-assessments by someone qualified to give them for dancers at various stages
- more defined criteria for levels of class


I can understand the argument for some standardisation in the role of taxi dancers, but, really - is there not enough red tape in the world already?? You want more???

My mother, for example, and yes, there is a point to this, is retired and takes lessons in painting. Just for fun. But these days the whole exercise has to be justifed by the writing of "mini essays" to demonstrate to the Powers That Be that Useful Things are happening in her Art classes. What happened to doing things for fun? Or am I just being old-fashioned here? I go to ceroc because I like it and for some blessed relief to all of that stuff - (I'm a teacher, btw) - "mini assessments"?! Eek! :eek: Hateful! A coloured card to show to the world that I've made sod all progress in three years?! (And not opting for a card at all would be even worse.) No thank you! I dance for fun (crikey, there goes that word again), which is why I rarely do lessons, and this would just add an unnecessary source of stress, like there aren't enough already.

El Salsero Gringo
28th-June-2006, 10:25 PM
And that structure should involve things such as:
- mandatory criteria, regular reviews, career progression, support and training for taxi dancers
- available and well-publicised mini-assessments by someone qualified to give them for dancers at various stages
- more defined criteria for levels of classYo, David, dude - just chuck in a few Three Letter Acronyms (doesn't matter what they stand for, just make'em up) and just a couple more buzz-words ("mandatory criteria"? I'm sorry but WHAT-THE-FRIG is that?) and you'll be ready to work for my local council as part of the neighborhood partnership, or district renewal scheme, or local area project, or whatever great scheme they (think they) are working on this month. They're so buried in bureaucracy that they never get anything done.
I can understand the argument for some standardisation in the role of taxi dancers, but, really - is there not enough red tape in the world already?? You want more???

My mother, for example, and yes, there is a point to this, is retired and takes lessons in painting. Just for fun. But these days the whole exercise has to be justifed by the writing of "mini essays" to demonstrate to the Powers That Be that Useful Things are happening in her Art classes. What happened to doing things for fun? Or am I just being old-fashioned here? I go to ceroc because I like it and for some blessed relief to all of that stuff - (I'm a teacher, btw) - "mini assessments"?! Eek! :eek: Hateful! A coloured card to show to the world that I've made sod all progress in three years?! (And not opting for a card at all would be even worse.) No thank you! I dance for fun (crikey, there goes that word again), which is why I rarely do lessons, and this would just add an unnecessary source of stress, like there aren't enough already.Amen to that - a thousand times.

MartinHarper
29th-June-2006, 12:52 AM
Whilst the intermediate taxis are stood around bored out of their tiny minds because no-one wants to dance with them

I think for the purposes of this thread we're assuming that lots of intermediate dancers want to get feedback on how to improve, and thus the intermediate taxis will be rushed off their feet by people wanting tips and suggestions. If that's not the case, maybe the idea isn't so hot.


Ok Ok this threads dead

There does seem to be a pythonesque trend on the forum to randomly declaring threads dead.


..the only way the dance will progress...

Do dances progress, or do they just change? Is Modern Jive a progression from French Jive? Is WCS a progression from Lindy? Is Jango a progression from Tango?

spindr
29th-June-2006, 01:16 AM
Ceroc report cards -- fantastic idea.

But perhaps you're thinking about it the wrong way. Maybe the best way is to mark the class (as a whole) fill out a report card and give it to the teachers, so that they can correct their future lessons.

"Time 9:24:47pm, 123 dancers: danced with 24: got 4 hand crushers, 2 cases of BO, 12 bouncers and a yanker.", "First move needs a bit more detail on the lady's footwork.", "Leads were a bit rough on that dominator, maybe give the safety advice earlier", "Number of jokes great -- but maybe some new material. Please!" etc.

Should get round all the problems of individual appraisal :)

SpinDr

P.S. In fact you could even post them on here :devil: Oh, hang on...

El Salsero Gringo
29th-June-2006, 08:19 AM
I think for the purposes of this thread we're assuming that lots of intermediate dancers want to get feedback on how to improve, and thus the intermediate taxis will be rushed off their feet by people wanting tips and suggestions. If that's not the case, maybe the idea isn't so hot.If it were the case that so many wanted feedback, I'm sure they'd all be asking for it even as we speak.
Is Modern Jive a progression from French Jive? Is WCS a progression from Lindy? Is Jango a progression from Tango?...is DavidJames a progression from Andy McGregor?

LMC
29th-June-2006, 08:45 AM
What happened to doing things for fun?
Big :yeah:

Oh well, in about 5 billion years the Sun will go supernova and none of this will matter anyway.