Relaxing while dancing

[Twirly]

Please feel free to point me to an appropriate old thread if, as usual, this has been covered before…

Girls, how do you relax while dancing with a new and vastly more experienced partner? I find I can get lead through all sorts of moves I don’t know by someone I’m used to dancing with, but when I dance for the first time (and often second and third times, if I’m asked again :blush: ) with someone who is obviously very good, confident and tries to put me into moves I’ve never done before, it makes me very anxious and puts me off my stride. I mess up and feel an idiot, knowing I can do better.

I assume that it has something to do with trust – and from things I’ve read on this forum, particularly from a safety point of view, maybe I’m right not to trust too soon – or am I?

Any advice/tips would be appreciated, from the girls or the guys. :nice:

[Minnie M]

In answer to your question IMHO it is all in the lead, if your partner doesn't do a great deal of different moves but is more into music interpretation it is easier to 'switch-off' listen to the music and just let this wonderful person lead you around the floor :drool: :drool: :drool:

It also helps if :-
1) you have confidence in your own ability (dancing with said partner)
2) you have confidence in the lead
3) happy with the speed on the track
4) and how you feel at the time

(try dancing with DavidB :respect: :worthy: :drool: )

[jivecat]

I find I can get lead through all sorts of moves I don’t know by someone I’m used to dancing with, but when I dance for the first time (and often second and third times, if I’m asked again :blush: ) with someone who is obviously very good, confident and tries to put me into moves I’ve never done before, it makes me very anxious and puts me off my stride. I mess up and feel an idiot, knowing I can do better.

I assume that it has something to do with trust – and from things I’ve read on this forum, particularly from a safety point of view, maybe I’m right not to trust too soon – or am I?


If they really are very good and very confident they should ideally be putting you at your ease by starting with easy & relaxed moves. It is not, IMO, the sign of an accomplished or considerate partner to start whipping you into complicated stuff before they've given you a chance to relax and find your feet. Also, there is the chance that you're assuming they are better than they really are because the moves seem complicated - in reality, he may be leading you with slight inaccuracies in timing or placement that make you feel that you are messing up, rather than him.

Of course, if you are tense and eager to please then there is a chance that you may fluff moves, or start to anticipate slightly. So I agree that clearing your mind and relaxing totally is the best way to proceed. I find that it helps me to remind myself that it is my responsibility to respond appropriately to the lead. BUT, it's the leader's responsibility to choose what moves are led, and if he has chosen to do moves that are challenging, then on his own head be it. The leader should ensure that he is capable of leading the move effectively with a person of the standard he has chosen to dance with.

I used to get extremely tense about dancing with certain people until some kind person introduced me to the dictum "IT'S ALWAYS THE MAN'S FAULT". He's the leader, he's supposed to be in control of the dance.
I can think of lots of occasions now where the lady has to bear some responsibility if the dance does not go smoothly, shall we say, but realising it was not solely my responsibility to make the dance successful helped me to relax. And then they DID go more smoothly!

Another way of looking at it is that if this good, confident, experienced partner has asked you for a second or third dance then he must really like the way you dance - so you might as well relax!

There hasn't been TTD for a while - and I think a lot of the stuff in this article applies equally to MJ.

http://www.gainesvilletango.org/What-Women-Want-and-What-Men-Want-in-Tango.htm

[Twirly]

Thanks for the advice Minnie and JV.

Maybe I should have said "dancer who has lots of moves" rather than good! It's a general thing, particularly at the few freestyles I've been to where the guy and I have never seen each other before. But the post was inspired by being asked to dance with someone like this last night - for the third time, so I guess I must be doing something right! I did manage to relax and had a much better dance than the previous two weeks, when I was a disaster (although having new shoes on didn't exactly help, nor the awful floor... :sick: ) I'm learning, but it's sometimes tough. And he is being very helpful and supportive, so hopefully I'll get asked again :D

JV - the link didn't work properly when I first clicked on it, but I assume you meant me to read the article on the ideal tango partner? Wow :drool: What a dance that would be! If I found a partner like that, I'd never let him go!!! The man has to do all that and the woman's part seems so simple... yet something to aspire to.

I am dreadful for anticipating, and I'm trying very hard to stop it. Trouble is, when I do, I then miss leads...:what:

Right, must do some deep beathing and relaxation before next class... :nice:

[Minnie M]

Maybe I should have said "dancer who has lots of moves" rather than good!
:angry: those sort of leads really annoy me - I will never forget the time I had a dance with a someone I had never danced with before who, when he realised I could follow OK, bomarded me with so many new moves :eek:

At the end of the dance he said "Wow, that was fantastic" - I felt a little guilty as I didn't really enjoy it, however, flattered by the 'compliment'. Then he said "I managed not to do same move twice in that dance, wasn't that good" :rolleyes: :whistle:

[Twirly]

:rofl: :rofl: A compliment maybe, but sounds like an endurance test.

Maybe what's happening then is that I'm dancing/following quite well, so they think that I'm more experienced than I am, so try stuff out on me thinking that I'll know how to do it? In which case I suppose that I should take it as a compliment. But as I've only been dancing a year, there's so much I don't know, and I get confused. :sick:

One of my favourite dancers at my local venue has danced with me since day one there and has always tailored what he does to my level, with lovely clean, clear leads. And now I know a bit more, he does slightly more complicated stuff, uses the music, etc. and I always have a great time and hardly ever miss a lead. Must tell him that sometime. :nice:

[Minnie M]

......Maybe what's happening then is that I'm dancing/following quite well, so they think that I'm more experienced than I am, so try stuff out on me thinking that I'll know how to do it? In which case I suppose that I should take it as a compliment. But as I've only been dancing a year, there's so much I don't know, and I get confused. :sick:

One of my favourite dancers at my local venue has danced with me since day one there and has always tailored what he does to my level, with lovely clean, clear leads. And now I know a bit more, he does slightly more complicated stuff, uses the music, etc. and I always have a great time and hardly ever miss a lead. Must tell him that sometime. :nice:
by jove I think you've got it :yeah:

Being a good follower is often 'rewarded' by the leads trying their new moves on you - so it is a compliment really. However, it is also a good thing as the more moves used on you, the more experienced you will be and hence the more confident you will get and therefore you will be able to relax more with the dancers you actually enjoy dancing with :flower:

[jivecat]

JV - the link didn't work properly when I first clicked on it, but I assume you meant me to read the article on the ideal tango partner? Yeah, sorry,my IT skills are utterly dreadful, I couldn't get the link to open either.



I am dreadful for anticipating, and I'm trying very hard to stop it. Trouble is, when I do, I then miss leads...:what: It's his job to put you where he wants you! If the lead is clear with adequate preparation you probably won't miss them. What helped me with this was dancing quite a bit with someone whose dance style was somewhat wild, over-complicated and unpredictable. The only way to cope was to totally abandon any will of my own and submit, but still maintain focus on the dance. Then I realised that I could actually carry out these moves.
Apparently, I was "a nightmare to lead" before that, as a dear friend of mine charmingly expressed it.:rolleyes:

[Twirly]

The only way to cope was to totally abandon any will of my own and submit, but still maintain focus on the dance.

Hmm, this should be interesting as it goes totally against my nature! Would I be asking to much if I asked you to explain how you did that? The focus on the dance bit whilst abandoning and submitting?

[Minnie M]

.......... The focus on the dance bit whilst abandoning and submitting?
:confused: that's called following :whistle:

[Twirly]

:confused: that's called following :whistle:

You mean that's what I've been doing wrong all this time?!! :rofl: :rofl:

Time to switch brain off...

[jivecat]

Hmm, this should be interesting as it goes totally against my nature! Would I be asking to much if I asked you to explain how you did that? The focus on the dance bit whilst abandoning and submitting?
I'm glad to hear it's not in your nature! Can't describe it any better, unless it's to say relax, but keep concentrating. No daydreaming and mentally floating away, it's a dance, not a smear test. If you're worried about getting too submissive, don't worry, hang on in there as ladies get to be bossy again just after they've learned how to follow correctly.

[jivecat]

You mean that's what I've been doing wrong all this time?!! :rofl: :rofl:

Time to switch brain off...

Yes! But keep your body switched on.

[Lynn]

I know what you mean because I do this and its nothing to do with trust (for me anyway). Its that I can get into a downward spiral of realising I made a mistake and thinking about that mistake and therefore being distracted and more likely to make another, then realising that and getting even more anxious and doing something else wrong, then feeling the whole dance is getting worse... On the very worst occasion of this I had to stop dancing altogether and apologise (fortunately I was dancing with an understanding forumite:flower: ). Nothing to do with the lead, all to do with me.

I felt the same way when learning to drive so I know for me its just something I do when I'm learning. I should just relax and not think.

Jivecat has beaten me to it with the TTD (must go and look at that link) but its a big thing for me in tango at the moment. I was talking to someone at the weekend about the different 'connections' in tango - one was the connection with your own body and not being 'in your head' - not thinking overly much. He was trying to lead me and I was saying 'oh I should have done X then' when he really didn't mind if I had done something different.

I think I will dance tango much better when I stop thinking my way through the dance and start feeling my way, the music, connection and lead.

[straycat]

If they really are very good and very confident they should ideally be putting you at your ease by starting with easy & relaxed moves. It is not, IMO, the sign of an accomplished or considerate partner to start whipping you into complicated stuff before they've given you a chance to relax and find your feet.

Couldn't agree more. Even dancing with someone I know very well, I'll always start a dance gently - gauging their mood, the music, and our level of connection with the music and each other is essential for a fun dance - and no matter how many times you dance with someone, the dynamics always change from dance to dance.

Starting like this applies tenfold for someone you've never (or rarely) danced with before. Another thing for leaders - dancing to show off what you can do is the best way to look daft - showing off your partner, and making her look good will reflect back on you very well indeed :cool: Leading her badly through overly complex moves will not be good for either of you.

[David Bailey]

Yeah, sorry,my IT skills are utterly dreadful, I couldn't get the link to open either.

Here you go (http://www.gainesvilletango.org/What-Women-Want-and-What-Men-Want-in-Tango.htm) :)

(Nice article, by the way)

[Gadget]

Girls, how do you relax while dancing with a new and vastly more experienced partner?
~
I assume that it has something to do with trust – and from things I’ve read on this forum, particularly from a safety point of view, maybe I’m right not to trust too soon – or am I?

Any advice/tips would be appreciated, from the girls or the guys.
It is trust; you have to trust someone to relax with them. Three things can help;

- Try closing your eyes, even if it's just for a bit of the dance - when you realise that you can follow like that, then opening your eyes again takes a lot of pressure off 'looking' for a lead, fearing you will miss it, and you get to rely on 'feeling' for it instead.

- Make yourself easier to lead - if your arm was in plaster with one of those L-shaped body-braces, then when someone pushed it, you would pivot. The force applied to your hand rotates you about your 'center'. When dancing, it's so much easier to lead someone who has a similar 'frame' to this (not quite as ridged; the lead also needs to be able to re-shape your frame, and you need to be able to absorb bad leading, but you get the idea.)

- Try to ignore the lead - Ie don't think about it. Just sing along to the music or go "la-la-la" or count the beats and try to work out where the next break is coming. The more you listen, the more you may find that some of the moves actually tie in with what's going on in it - then you may find that you are listening/hearing the same things as the leader is, then you may both be able to come together more and have more chance of 'clicking'.

Hope this is of some use.

[under par]

. No daydreaming and mentally floating away, it's a dance,not a smear test


Sorry JC far too much information there:eek:

[Minnie M]

....... If you're worried about getting too submissive, don't worry, hang on in there as ladies get to be bossy again just after they've learned how to follow correctly.
:yeah: :rofl: so true :clap:

Great advice JC - in fact all posts are great :respect:

[LMC]

Agree that a really good lead will be aware of where your balance is, which means that you should be able to follow anything.

If I end up with someone who is a good lead but throwing all sorts of weird stuff at me, I love it, 'cos it makes me pay attention to following (rather than being slightly automatic pilot because however hard I try not to anticipate, when the same moves are led a lot, I find the muscle memory does take over in terms of balance/expectation). Best advice I was given, which I try to put into practice is "follow the hand" :nice: - watching the lead's chest also helps with your balance as there may well be clues to their 'intention' (direction) there (yet another tango 'technique', but may be not one to use excessively if a woman is leading you...)

[Twirly]

Thanks for all the tips folks. :nice:


No daydreaming and mentally floating away, it's a dance, not a smear test.

JC- the day I can liken Ceroc to a smear test I’ll be giving it up – rapidly! :eek:


I know what you mean because I do this and its nothing to do with trust (for me anyway). Its that I can get into a downward spiral of realising I made a mistake and thinking about that mistake and therefore being distracted and more likely to make another, then realising that and getting even more anxious and doing something else wrong, then feeling the whole dance is getting worse...

Lynn, I understand exactly what you are saying, and I think that is part of the problem, although when dancing with a new partner (or one I’ve danced with infrequently or not for ages), I think my initial problem does come from not being able to trust sufficiently and therefore relax, and that’s when I make the mistake/miss the lead and head off into my downward spiral if I do it more than a couple of times. And my downward spiral is usually accompanied by copious apologising, which is irritating to the guy as well as me, but seems to be instinctive (though I’m working on breaking that habit).


Try closing your eyes, even if it's just for a bit of the dance
I think I’ll try the eyes closed thing, but not with one of these dancers till I’ve tried it with someone I already trust – don’t want to wind up a gibbering wreck. :sick: Could be a bit tricky if they’re waving their hand behind their back at you though…


Just sing along to the music or go "la-la-la" or count the beats and try to work out where the next break is coming. The more you listen, the more you may find that some of the moves actually tie in with what's going on in it - then you may find that you are listening/hearing the same things as the leader is, then you may both be able to come together more and have more chance of 'clicking'.

I do this with the guys that I trust. I’ve actually become conscious recently that I probably look like I’m talking to myself whilst dancing. I shall try and do this next time I’m in this situation, but be aware of doing it.

I do like it when I get moves that I don’t know in a dance or get challenged – love it in fact. I’ve often picked out partners whom I’ve grown to trust who I know will stretch me that way, and I’m sure that my dancing has come on much faster as a consequence. And I know I’ve seen elsewhere that you shouldn’t worry too much about whether your partner is having a good time, but I can’t help it – I want to dance well so that he’ll ask me again! And so that I’ll continue to improve and enjoy it even more. Sounds like it’s down to an experience thing – maybe I’m at the “little knowledge is a dangerous thing” stage. :devil:

Really appreciate your input - off to class again tonight, so will try and remember and put it into practice. :kiss: :grin:

[spindr]

Agree that a really good lead will be aware of where your balance is, which means that you should be able to follow anything.
Being aware of where it is may be true -- but if the follower's balance is shifting about randomly then that doesn't really help.

SpinDr

[Rachel]

[snip] Best advice I was given, which I try to put into practice is "follow the hand" :nice: - watching the lead's chest also helps with your balance as there may well be clues to their 'intention' (direction) there (yet another tango 'technique', but may be not one to use excessively if a woman is leading you...)Good advice!

However, being more flippant, I find that if a guy is doing lots & lots of complex moves which you don't really want to do, just start talking to them .... Almost inevitably they will simplify things. Men rarely do their most ambitious moves while trying to hold a conversation. Of course, you might get told to shut up (don't blame me :wink:)!

Rachel

[Twirly]

Hmm, asking a man to multi-task... :what:

*ducks and runs away*

[TiggsTours]

A good dancer dances to their partners capability, and the same goes for leading and following. If a guy is leading you into all sorts of complicated stuff and you are not following it, then he is the one that is wrong, as he should adjust his lead accordingly. I'd say that you are a better dancer than him, as you are at least trying to keep up, and therefore are at least trying to dance to their capability!

The same goes when you're following, if I'm dancing with a good dancer I will put in far more of my own interpretations and styling, and backleading than I would with a beginner, I wouldn't even attempt backleading with a beginner! If I had manage to guage by about half way through the dance that they could handle it, I would simply add a little more styling in, nothing more than that.

You see plenty of "good" leads dancing with beginners, throwing them everywhere, then hitting breaks in the music, they look fab and their partner is left standing there looking a bit lost and not knowing what to do, that's not a good lead, a good lead would adjust, keep the moves simple and enjoyable, and make sure their partner is having a good time! If you watch the best dancers dancing socially, you'll usually see that the moves they are using are generally very simple, no matter who they're dancing with, its the way they do them that makes them look good!

[Dreamer]

Very good, if slightly overwrought article about what men and women want from their tango partners (http://www.gainesvilletango.org/What-Women-Want-and-What-Men-Want-in-Tango.htm) :)



Looking at the respective lengths of the woman's list of desirable tango man attributes versus the man's list reminds me of that joke about what makes an ideal man/woman:

Ideal man is:
1) strong
2) sensitive
3) practical
4) empathetic
5) heroic
6) faithful
7) blah blah blah you get the idea....
....
....
200) ....

Ideal woman:
1) Turns up naked
2) Brings beer

[Minnie M]

.........Ideal woman:
1) Turns up naked
2) Brings beer
or if not ideal
change the order :whistle:
1) Brings beer
2) Gets naked

sorry girls..... I shouldn't encourage them :blush: it's all this footie going to my head :sad:

[amthekkel]

hi,
I hope you have sorted out the problem with the "following". I am a male dancer and suck at following myself, but I have heared about some of my friends having the same problem as you have had. Hope what i have to say makes sense and helps?
If you are dancing with someone for the first time, you are naturally going to see how good they are and how well or how bad there lead is? If you feel the guy leads you well, your instincts should help you gradually trust the guy and help you follow the lead properly.
However, if you feel less confident about your ability to perform as good as your partner, you will end up thinking about it too much and miss the dance flow. First thing, have faith in yourself, easier said than done! Next time when you are on the dance floor and you feel nervous, try humming the tune of the song in your mind, this might help you relax your mind.
Keep on dancing and have fun

regards
abhi

[MartinHarper]

Watching the lead's chest also helps .... but may be not one to use excessively if a woman is leading you...

I can't see a single problem with that.
In seriousness, watching the collarbone or the top of the rib cage works well in that case.

[Kes]

Hi!

I've only been dancing for 6 weeks, but managed to dance with so many different partners - from beginners to amazing dancers and I found that when the partner's knowledge is much greater, it just adds to the experinece and I learn so much. :nice:

Not so keen on the men that would try a complicated move on me and when it doesn't work, they stick to very simple routines - how am I supposed to learn (in classes, I know, but there should be more to this!)?

A few of the great dancers that I've danced with would try more advanced moves (and miraculously I managed to follow most of them!) and if any of them confuse me, they would try them again later in the dance and after a few tries I get the hang of them - very subtle way of teaching I find and extremely rewarding!!! It really speeds up the learning process and boosts your confidence! :grin:

As for making mistakes... One great teacher once said to me BE LIKE A FISH - as soon as the mistake is made, it's gone, forget it and move on! Nobody's perfect anyway - and just as well, they would be very boring! :nice:

[Jhutch]

Maybe what's happening then is that I'm dancing/following quite well, so they think that I'm more experienced than I am, so try stuff out on me thinking that I'll know how to do it?



Well, its a bit late to answer this but i think that this may apply to some women. I went to one London venue a while back. The best dance of the evening was with a girl i spoke to later. I imagined that she had been dancing for ages but it turned out that it was only 3 or 4 months:really: I saw her a week or so later at a different venue that she hadn't been to before. During freestyle she spent a lot of time sitting down looking unhappy. When i asked her what was wrong, she said that she couldn't seem to follow what the men were leading. However, when i had danced with her doing my limited range of moves:blush: she seemed fine. I can only think that her good following meant that the leaders were thinking she was more experienced than she was and tried harder stuff (i know that they shouldn't, etc, but if it only happens once in every dance and you're not used to it, then i suppose it would get you down).



I can get into a downward spiral of realising I made a mistake and thinking about that mistake and therefore being distracted and more likely to make another, then realising that and getting even more anxious and doing something else wrong, then feeling the whole dance is getting worse



:yeah:

Normally calls for a complete back to basics:sad:

[Ghost]

On the trust issue;

If I'm leading a move they don't know, it's like a little sandtimer appears and the sand starts trickling through. As long as I'm finished and back onto recognisable territory before I run out of sand (and I've led it properly :blush: ) everything's fine. If I go past the point where I run out of sand (trust) and they start trying to think through what i'm trying to lead and it all goes rapidly wrong. How much sand there is depends largely on how well I've led the previous moves, and how well I've led other unknown moves (and whether I kept within the sand-timer). You can build up sand throughout a dance.

I'm currently unconvinced of the wisdom of leading an experienced Cerocer through a dance consisting only of moves she doesn't recognise, no matter how well they're led.

The flip-side of this is important though - there's probably valid reasons why you only have so much trust in a lead, and these can include stopping you from getting hurt and hurting others, so I'd be cautious of trying to ignore this aspect and following anything they lead

[killingtime]

If I'm leading a move they don't know, it's like a little sandtimer appears and the sand starts trickling through. As long as I'm finished and back onto recognisable territory before I run out of sand (and I've led it properly :blush: ) everything's fine.

Have you been playing Sands of Time or something :cool:?

Anyway I get what you mean. I find sometimes when I lead relative beginners into walk moves or such they'll start following just fine but I'll sense a point where they begin to try and think about what they are doing, where their feet should be and what they should be doing. I'll feel them tense up and pretty much at that point I know that I won't be able to lead that move any more (often I'll try and exit the move at that stage).

Saying that a while back I followed a guy who is known for his walking moves and such. It was interesting, despite what I know what I look for when leading, that I fell into trying to think about what he wanted me to do. He told me to relax, keep my frame and not think of my feet. Sure enough he had moving around the floor in no time then. It was wonderful to be glide around a floor actually. I can definitely see the appeal :wink:.