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David Bailey
19th-June-2006, 08:37 PM
Inspired by this post:

Although I've danced jive for 5 years, I just felt like I couldn't dance at all last night. It seemed like everyone else in the room were more competent/ confident/ pretty/ having a better time than I was.
I've never met a good dancer who doesn't occasionally (or frequently) stress about their dancing. No matter who they are, no matter how good they are, no matter how happy / pretty / stylish they are. And yes, that includes me. (OK, maybe not for the happy / pretty / stylish bit. Or the "good" bit. Just the stress bit...)

So, why is this?
- Are we all just a mass of neuroses and insecurities?
- Is "worrying about your dancing" a pre-requisite to being at a certain level / advancing in level?
- Is it natural in a group situation to occasionally feel left out?

And more importantly, how do people deal with this when it happens

Andreas
19th-June-2006, 08:51 PM
I think this ties in well with the thread 'fun vs. improvement' (was this here or on the OZ forum?).

I think to some extent all dancers want to dance at a level that supports their ego rather than the other way around. Occasionally you go dancing because you felt bad all day, then you know that your dancing isn't too bad and it'll help you over it. Or you go dancing to have a blast and just forget about all stress. Or you go to just cruise on the dance floor all night calming down. There are plenty of reasons.

So 'having a bad night' and 'everybody was just better in every aspect than I' are not necessarily linked to the ego. They may well be but it could also be an expression of dissappointed expectations.

I must say the longer I have been dancing for the more likely I am not to have as good a time as I wish for. That can be related to the music just not matching my mood or me just not being mentally fully involved with the dancing at the time. Sometimes you feel like you want to dance with somebody but then decide that asking isn't worth the risk of being turned down and having an even worse night. That is a particularly bad feeling, which I luckily don't have very often. But it is kind of a catch 22. Although, what have I got to lose if I haven't got a good night anyway? Then there are nights when I really enjoy dancing with absolute beginners and could do so all night, at other occasions I'll dance with one or two but my frame of mind can't handle more and I need to burn some energy. But how should other people know? So it is sort of easy to spoil it w/o having the intention to. Conclusion of that is that in most, if not all, cases 'a bad night' is self-inflicted. If I go dancing and set my mind at having as much fun as possible no matter what then I am most likely also going to have a ball. Trouble is: that is the theory. Getting oneself to do just that is sometimes harder than desired. :flower:

Lory
19th-June-2006, 09:16 PM
Sometimes you feel like you want to dance with somebody but then decide that asking isn't worth the risk of being turned down and having an even worse night.
:yeah: Oh yes, been there loads of times :rolleyes:

I did this poll (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5862&highlight=insecurities)a while back :nice:

El Salsero Gringo
19th-June-2006, 10:23 PM
So, why is this?
- Are we all just a mass of neuroses and insecurities?
- Is "worrying about your dancing" a pre-requisite to being at a certain level / advancing in level?
- Is it natural in a group situation to occasionally feel left out?I'm far too insecure to answer questions like that!

Gadget
19th-June-2006, 10:52 PM
:confused: I don't think I've reached that level / stage of advancement to worry about my dancing.

I am however just getting to the stage where I am no longer intimidated by someone's prowess or reputation on the dance floor or for teaching or anything else.
I may admire them and/or respect them, but I now have the experiance and knowledge behind me to actually examine what they are saying/doing instead of simply taking it as gospel.

I admit that being pimped for dances does add a bit of trepidation untill I step onto the floor, but after that :shrug: I get lost in the dance. Same with dancing with someone who knows you by reputation, but has never danced with you.
(Hence my sneaking up on Fletch on Sunday :devil: )

Tazmanian Devil
19th-June-2006, 10:59 PM
Sometimes you feel like you want to dance with somebody but then decide that asking isn't worth the risk of being turned down and having an even worse night.
:yeah:
There are many people I feel this way with :sad: I end up staring at them for a couple of tracks thinking shall I :confused: Then always end up with the same awnser NO!!!

Little Monkey
19th-June-2006, 11:46 PM
Inspired by this post:

I've never met a good dancer who doesn't occasionally (or frequently) stress about their dancing.

Should I take this as a compliment?:innocent:

No, seriously, I think most dancers will have bad days and good days. But some people have less self esteem than others, and can get down about their own dancing easier. I very often give myself a hard time when I feel I can't dance as well as I want to, despite most of the time having a good reason for not being on top form (not slept enough, bad back, hayfever, whatever).

On good days I feel confident enough to ask the really good dancers for a dance (hey, I must have been on form on Sunday night in Southport - I asked Robert Cordoba for a dance, although I'm a beginner at WCS!!:D ). On good days I think I'm a relatively good dancer. But even on a good day I know how much better I'd like to be, and can be quite jealous at others who I consider to be much better dancers than me.

On bad days my confidence and self esteem might crumble for a variety of reasons. I might dance with someone really good, and miss about half the leads, ending up feeling like the worst dancer in the room. I might just feel really fat and ugly, and because of that feel very inhibited about my dancing. Someone might give me a patronising look or comment, which will dent my confidence. Or I might not be asked up for any dances, feeling like the least desirable dancer on earth. There's tons of reasons, and it all depends on my mood on that particular day.

In general I am not as good as I'd like to be. But how many people do you know who are truly happy about their level of dancing, and think they don't need to improve any further?

straycat
20th-June-2006, 08:27 AM
In general I am not as good as I'd like to be. But how many people do you know who are truly happy about their level of dancing, and think they don't need to improve any further?
Far too many:sad:

robd
20th-June-2006, 09:08 AM
In general I am not as good as I'd like to be. But how many people do you know who are truly happy about their level of dancing, and think they don't need to improve any further?

Someone said 'Far too many'. I am not so sure. Yes, there are probably lots of people you dance with who are not as good as you want them to be and they may not go to workshops or do classes but it does not mean they believe they cannot improve, just that the effort involved may not outweigh the benefit to be gained. There was a thread (no time to find link) which talked about how (relatively quickly compared with other dance styles) people can reach a plateau in MJ getting beyond which requires more effort than getting there and some people just don't have the time, money or will to move on beyond that point.

I went dancing last night, didn't feel it went at all well (one lovely penguin walk aside :dizzy: :sick: ) and if you'd asked me at the end of the night was I happy I'd have said no. Yet it's also the first and only time in 18 months the teacher has praised my dancing (unsolicited I should add). He came over at the end of the night and said I'd looked very smooth - :smug: - which was completely at odds with my perception of my evening. I guess the point of this is that you shouldn't always rely solely on your own view of your dancing abilities.

Robert

timbp
20th-June-2006, 09:33 AM
In general I am not as good as I'd like to be. But how many people do you know who are truly happy about their level of dancing, and think they don't need to improve any further?
About six months ago I moved house, and consequently changed my regular dance venues. A couple of weeks ago I went back to my original home venue. It was a poor night (heavy rain, so many people didn't turn up), but I knew most of the women from when I used to be regular there.

It really stood out to me how my dancing had improved and theirs had not. These are people who have been dancing longer than me, and I would say their dancing is no different now to how it was six months ago. Yet they are happy, and were ecstatic that I was there for the night -- they kept telling me how they needed good leaders.

And maybe they do!

I suspect if I hadn't moved house I'd still be going to that venue, and my dancing may not have changed either. The big difference where I now dance is how hard it is to keep the girls under control -- they always want to play, they're not shy about indicating an approaching break if they think the guy is going to dance through it (while still following if he doesn't pick up on their signals), and they generally make dancing more a partnership.

Overall, I think people want to be respected in their community. If the particular community (dance venue) is complacent, then anyone entering that community will reach a level and stop there and be happy. If most of the community is striving to improve, all members will try to improve to stay in the community, or they will leave for something easier.

Twirly
20th-June-2006, 10:20 AM
In general I am not as good as I'd like to be. But how many people do you know who are truly happy about their level of dancing, and think they don't need to improve any further?

This would lead to complacency surely? Or is this where “hotshot” syndrome starts from? Whatever you do, you can always find room for improvement or development.

If I'm having a bad night, I try and think of all the nights I've had which were good to remind myself that I've enjoyed it before, that this is a glitch and I'll enjoy it again.

The trigger for this can be my feeling less than good, and then dancing with one or two more advanced dancers, particularly if I've not danced with them before. If they don't adjust to my level and I really mess it up, then I feel that I’m a terrible dancer for not being able to follow the lead – then there’s a danger of beating myself up. :tears: If it's my regular venue and there are guys I know I can dance with well and who won’t develop an attitude if I mess up, but laugh or show me how to do it properly with good grace, then I’ll go and find them. Even tell them that I’m having a bad night so they know what they are letting themselves in for! That way, I’ll have at least one or two good dances and leave the night feeling at least OK.

These lows, whilst they feel bad at the time do make us appreciate the highs of dancing more though. :grin:

David Bailey
20th-June-2006, 10:25 AM
I did this poll (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5862&highlight=insecurities)a while back :nice:
Heck, I knew I'd seen that somewhere before :blush:

Can some nice moderator merge this into the other "insecurities" thread? :flower:

'Coz, too much insecurity is a Bad Thing :innocent:

straycat
20th-June-2006, 10:52 AM
Someone said 'Far too many'. I am not so sure. Yes, there are probably lots of people you dance with who are not as good as you want them to be and they may not go to workshops or do classes but it does not mean they believe they cannot improve, just that the effort involved may not outweigh the benefit to be gained. There was a thread (no time to find link) which talked about how (relatively quickly compared with other dance styles) people can reach a plateau in MJ getting beyond which requires more effort than getting there and some people just don't have the time, money or will to move on beyond that point.

I'm sticking by that statement. I don't think I'm talking about the bracket of folks that you're talking about here, especially as in some ways, I'm one of them ... haven't done an MJ lesson in years, not because I don't think I have anything to learn, but more because - I can't really be bothered :rolleyes:

Illustrative story. A while back, an acquaintance once asked me to video his dancing (Lindy) because he'd never seen himself dance. When I showed him the result, his initial reaction was one of shock - what he saw did not agree with his self-image in the slightest (in many ways he's very good, but his dancing can charitably be called 'enthusiastic', and less charitably 'messy')
At first, he was utterly scathing about what he saw. Within a few minutes, he'd wittled that down to "well - it's how you FEEL that's important", and by the end of the evening, the episode was conveniently forgotten. He still dances like that to this day. Rather keep his illusions than improve.

Another one - the first time I went to Herrang, Steven Mitchell & Virginie were teaching - and what they did, for a whole week, was to break down some core moves into their component parts (we spent the first lesson just walking) & then put them back together in a new, wonderful form. I learned an incredible amount about dance, movement, connection etc from the process, as did anyone who threw themselves into it. Quite a few people (of all abilities) didn't like the lessons (understatement) saying that they were a waste of time, as they had nothing to learn from 'em - they already knew those moves, so what was the point?

Those are the people I'm talking about, and there are quite a few of them, alas...

Beowulf
20th-June-2006, 11:08 AM
And more importantly, how do people deal with this when it happens

Ruuun Awaaaay !!! :eek:

not the most helpful thing I do in that situation I have to agree. I felt really foolish on Saturday legging it out of the Beach Ballroom.

It's probably me being very self centred. I think I'm bad and I'm worried about all these lovely lovely dancers who are brilliant at dancing who may be asking me for a dance and I can't help but think I'll be a disappointment to them.

Once I think that I can't dance with them as I wouldn't want to spoil their evening. now I KNOW this is nonsense. One bad dance with me won't ruin their night but I can't help feeling like that at the time. Once I've had chance to calm down and think then I usually feel stupid.

A similar thing happens occasionally when I'm shopping. For some reason I get it into my head that EVERYONE is deliberately getting in my way and swarming around me. I start to get claustrophobic and have to drop everything and run out the shop.

I am my own worst enemy. There's been so many things in my life I've started then decided I was no good at and given up. I've always had very low self esteem and a poor self image. When I look in the mirror I still see the wimpy frail wheezy asthmatic bucktoothed squint eyed stammering bullied school kid I was in my youth.

Self loathing is so ingrained in me from a very early age I doubt I'll ever get rid of it.. but I go to ceroc classes in a vain attempt to manage it better.

I feel in all things, there's ALWAYS room for improvement. However, that sometimes means I feel that my best isn't good enough !:sad:

LMC
20th-June-2006, 11:10 AM
It's probably me being very self centred. I think I'm bad and I'm worried about all these lovely lovely dancers who are brilliant at dancing who may be asking me for a dance and I can't help but think I'll be a disappointment to them.
Nah, it's the ladies being self-centred - we need more good male dancers, they are only created through practice - and someone as enthusiastic as you are deserves to be danced with, whatever :nice: - may I put my name down for a dance @Blaze now please? :D

Lynn
20th-June-2006, 11:30 AM
My confidence in dancing has improved over the past few years, partly because some people keep asking me to dance so I mustn't be too bad, and partly because I don't get refused when I pluck up the courage to ask others. Of course there are people I don't ask, just in case they say no!

I started out by feeling rather insecure, my first proper freestyle experience (coming from a small local class where I was probably the most experienced), was the forum reception at Southport in May 04 and I saw a room full of very good dancers and felt very inadequate in comparison.

There is always the tendancy to compare ourselves against others and while its helpful in some ways in others its not good. If we think we are a lot worse then we feel can insecure. If we feel we are a lot better then we can feel superior.

So I decided to just concentrate on being as good as I can be, not as good as anyone else.

The downside to this is those times when I know I am not dancing as well I should be and start to get too critical of my own dancing to the point of losing confidence. The only thing to do is to recognise that this will pass (and maybe find some friends to dance with who will not be putting expections on me as I'm already putting enough on myself).

My last 'I have so far to go in learning anything about dancing' feeling* that made me feel a bit low was at the T-jive in Dec (again the comparison thing), so I hope it doesn't happen again this weekend!

*Aside from tango lessons, or any time I think/talk about tango of course.

straycat
20th-June-2006, 11:33 AM
I am my own worst enemy. There's been so many things in my life I've started then decided I was no good at and given up. I've always had very low self esteem and a poor self image. When I look in the mirror I still see the wimpy frail wheezy asthmatic bucktoothed squint eyed stammering bullied school kid I was in my youth.


Me fifteen years ago or so. It does get better. Much better. And for me, (& I suspect many others), taking up MJ was a big help. It's a gradual process though, so don't get despondent when things don't change overnight - all things considered, it sounds like you're headed the right way, so just keep going... :respect:

Twirly
20th-June-2006, 11:47 AM
It's probably me being very self centred. I think I'm bad and I'm worried about all these lovely lovely dancers who are brilliant at dancing who may be asking me for a dance and I can't help but think I'll be a disappointment to them.


Nah, it's the ladies being self-centred - we need more good male dancers, they are only created through practice - and someone as enthusiastic as you are deserves to be danced with, whatever

:yeah:

B - just remember, that the "good" leads can often be exhausting to dance with (I struggle to keep up sometimes) and that dancing with a (relative) beginner can be a good opportunity to slow down and take stock, work on your own style and technique, observe and generally learn for us women who aren't (yet) top-notch dancers. You may think it's a "bad" dance for them, but they might disagree. And if I dance with a guy who appears to be making mistakes I often feel relieved - guys make mistakes too! I'm very aware that we all have to start somewhere, and I may have climbed a very little way up the Ceroc ladder, but I'm very happy to help those who are just starting out (since I can clearly see what they are going through since I was there just recently myself!) and as LMC says, we need to encourage those with enthusiasm.

Shame you're so far away - I'd happily dance with you. Maybe one day... :flower:

Lory
20th-June-2006, 11:52 AM
it's also the first and only time in 18 months the teacher has praised my dancing (unsolicited I should add). He came over at the end of the night and said I'd looked very smooth - :smug: - which was completely at odds with my perception of my evening.
That's funny, I had a similar experience last week.. I had an absolutely terrible dance with a guy i've not danced with in ages, he was as rough as anything :sick: and I was stumbling all over the place :sick: :blush: I was basically playing 'catch up' the whole way through the dance (don't get me wrong, he 'is' a nice guy :o ) anyway, load and behold, of all the dances i've ever had, with all those fantastic dancers, I couldn't believe it, this one recieved a small ripple of aplause at the end :what: :confused: :rolleyes: :rofl:

ginger M
20th-June-2006, 12:02 PM
Hello everyone - I am new, 1st post here!

I know what you mean about that Lory, it is often what I think are the worst dances that people complement me on! And my best ones go un-noticed.

Twirly
20th-June-2006, 12:16 PM
Welcome ginger :nice: - although am fairly new here myself too.

Lynn
20th-June-2006, 12:18 PM
Hello everyone - I am new, 1st post here!Welcome!

Oh, I forgot to add - there are of course the occasions when I feel everyone is younger and prettier and get all self conscious. I probably don't dance so well when I feel like that. But almost all of my dancing insecurities are about how I feel about my dancing and are affected by so many things that aren't related to anyone else (eg tiredness). And the dance pyschology workshop helped me realise that is something I can try and change, if its a problem. I am responsible for how I feel. And sometimes the best option is to stop putting pressure on myself and go home/not dance anymore that evening.

Lory
20th-June-2006, 03:19 PM
Hello everyone - I am new, 1st post here!


Welcome Ginger M :cheers:

Why don't you post a little bit about yourself HERE (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=798), How long you've been dancing at what venue's etc. and maybe even post a pic, if your feeling really brave :na:

Little Monkey
20th-June-2006, 06:41 PM
In general I am not as good as I'd like to be. But how many people do you know who are truly happy about their level of dancing, and think they don't need to improve any further?


This would lead to complacency surely? Or is this where “hotshot” syndrome starts from? Whatever you do, you can always find room for improvement or development.

Not sure if I'm reading this right? Do you mean that people like myself who feel they need to improve their dancing become complacent about their dancing (surely not?), or that people "who are truly happy about their level of dancing" are complacent?:confused:

And I assume you mean that the 'hotshot' syndrome starts from being complacent about your own dancing?

Totally agree with you - whatever you do, there's always room for improvement!

LM:flower:

MartinHarper
20th-June-2006, 07:20 PM
Certainly I've been in situations where I've felt like the one of the worst dancers in the room, and refrained from doing much dancing as a result. I don't think that was a result of insecurity, though - I think it was the result of genuinely being one of the worst dancers in the room. So I sit down to watch other folks dance, grab a drink, and chill.

My first weekender was probably the clearest example of that. It was some Lindy-based thing, and I went there having never danced Lindy. By the end of Friday, I'd learnt to follow four moves (badly) from one class, I'd learnt to lead a single move (badly) from another, and I'd learnt a teensy bit about walking from a third. Needless to say, this did little to prepare me for my first weekender freestyle, where even the average dancers were better than anything I'd seen before.

I'm not saying I'm a great judge of my own ability: I'm sure that like every other dancer in the world I think I'm better than I am. However, the times I've felt below par, I'm pretty sure it was because I was below par, rather than being some silly insecurity.


How many people do you know who are truly happy about their level of dancing, and think they don't need to improve any further?

There has always been many things that I could improve about my dancing, and there will always be many things I can improve about my dancing. Fortunately, I don't need to be perfect to be happy.
(besides, imperfections are sexy)

Little Monkey
20th-June-2006, 07:50 PM
I'm sure that like every other dancer in the world I think I'm better than I am.

But surely, if "every other dancer in the world" think they're better than they really are, we wouldn't have so many dancers with silly insecurities about their own dancing? Like yours truly! And we wouldn't have this thread....

Twirly
20th-June-2006, 10:27 PM
Not sure if I'm reading this right? Do you mean that people like myself who feel they need to improve their dancing become complacent about their dancing (surely not?), or that people "who are truly happy about their level of dancing" are complacent?:confused:

And I assume you mean that the 'hotshot' syndrome starts from being complacent about your own dancing?

Totally agree with you - whatever you do, there's always room for improvement!

LM:flower:

Yes LM, I think you were reading me correctly. If you think you are perfect and have no need to improve, you become complacent. If you're still working at it (as you and most people here seem to be), then you wouldn't be.

I meant that "hotshot" syndrome could come from being so convinced of your own infallibility as a dancer that you don't need to improve - well, you couldn't possibly, could you, if you're already perfect? :wink: