How to recover from a bad lead (from the bad leads perspective)

[Beowulf]

Hi,
As a relatively new start I'm finding that My leads are not as good as they can be and sometimes I'll "signal" for move A and get Move B instead.

Now I know that this will become less frequent as I dance more and become better at giving clear leads but I was just wondering , in the meantime, if there are any techniques for recovering from a move that went awry?

For example.. suppose I'm "attempting" a side to side. Instead of Blocking with my left elbow I let the lady spin on through.

Any more experienced guys got any tips? I was assume it happens all the time especially when An experienced guy is dancing with an inexperienced woman? (or vice versa in my case :whistle: )

As I'm off to the BB tonight I'm a "little worried" (understatement of the year) that I'll be hopeless. Not so much throwing a cat among the pidgeons.. more like throwing a gammy pidgeon into a cattery full of very hungry cats!! :blush: :tears:

[Graham]

If I am understanding you correctly, the problem is that when something goes wrong, you are finding yourself and/or your partner in a different position than you expected. The coping technique to use is basically just the same as having to choose what to do next when everything goes right - at the end of a first move, for example, you are thinking "What do I do now? My left hand is holding her right hand and we're both stepping back, I know, I'll do a manspin / travelling return / pretzel / etc." When something goes wrong, you need to do the same thing, but what you're looking for is to start in the middle of a move which has the position you're currently in. We teach modern jives in "moves" which have a start and an end, but this is merely a trick to make it easier to teach/learn - in reality the dance is one continuous movement through the track - when you find yourself in an unexpected position you just have to think of what you can do starting from that position.

This is, of course, easier said than done, and I think it's largely a question of practice. There are one or two "tricks" you can learn though - for example, learn a couple of things you can do if you find yourself holding your partner's left hand instead of her right. Sometimes (like a side-to-side) you can perhaps do the mirror image of what you've just done to get back into your start position and proceed from there with a new move. Good luck, and don't worry about it. :grin:

[Icey]

I've found that if I misfollow a move (perhaps I wasn't on the ball or the lead wasn't all that clear) and I'm in the wrong place to catch a hand to be lead into another move I will chuck in a triple step or a spin to get myself where I should be. Hopefully this gives my partner the chance to recover and restart the dance.

This feels better as a follower than to stop dead and restart.

[spindr]

Recovering from a bad lead (or in fact a bad follow) is simple, you need to do two things:
1). Get back to a "known" position that you can start leading from.
2). Get back in time with the music.

The simplest way is just to stop, get back to a normal facing position and to restart on-time with the music.

Everything else is simply a bonus -- e.g. you lead from where you are, rather than from where you should have been. You can do a disconnect / reconnect style thing that can help -- e.g. leading a free-spin and then catching.

If you get back to where the move originally went awry, then you could even consider leading it awry again -- at least then having done it twice it will look deliberate.

Above all, a sense of proportion and humour will help :)

SpinDr

[David Bailey]

Now I know that this will become less frequent as I dance more and become better at giving clear leads but I was just wondering , in the meantime, if there are any techniques for recovering from a move that went awry?
Gadget's explained it much better than I can, and I can only say :yeah: to his comments.

From my point of view, a couple of possibilities occur:
- Have a few "stall" moves. These are moves you can do at certain positions, if you're not sure what to do next. The idea is that once you've finished the stall move, your creativity will kick in (!) - for example, a simple slow walk-around.
- Don't get hung up on "where you / she is supposed to be". At some point you'll get past putting moves together, and just dance. Or so I'm told...

Like Icey, I'm not a big fan of the "stop and re-start" thing, sorry - I think it's always better to at least try to dance yourself out of a problem than just start again. Even if it's just a slow wiggly turn to get to the right position, that's so much better than stopping I think.

[Gadget]

Gadget's explained it much better than I can, and I can only say :yeah: to his comments.:confused:But I've not posted on this thread yet! :what:

My tip: Don't stop.
Do something. Even if it's simply passing the follower's hand from your right to your left and stepping back. It's the 'step back' that restores you to a comfort zone that you are familure with and every Ceroc move starts and ends with.

[DavidY]

If you get back to where the move originally went awry, then you could even consider leading it awry again -- at least then having done it twice it will look deliberate.

Above all, a sense of proportion and humour will help :):yeah: I still have a bad habit of apologising when I lead someone into a different move to the one I intended.:blush:

What I should do (unless I've just trodden on my partner's toes or some such) is smile and keep going as if it was exactly what I intended.

[Beowulf]

:confused:But I've not posted on this thread yet! :what:
.

AH but you are so prolific you were here in spirit before you posted.. :)


I still have a bad habit of apologizing when I lead someone into a different move to the one I intended.

yeah I do that.. I also apologize when I think I've done a bad lead, when I pull too hard, when I don't pull hard enough, when I mis a beat, when i do the same move too often, when i ask them for a dance and when they ask me for a dance, and when I finished dancing with them.. Oh and if they tell me to stop apologizing I tend to apologize for apologizing. :blush:

[Gadget]

What I should do (unless I've just trodden on my partner's toes or some such) is smile and keep going as if it was exactly what I intended.:rofl: That's exactly what I do :D... { think I get away with ii... most of the time:whistle:}

[Frankie_4711]

From a follower's perspective ... please don't stop!! It's infuriating! Doesn't matter what you do, but please do something! But most of all, if it's lead into just a different move, then ignore it: no-one will know; if it's lead into an awkward position, laugh about it: but DON'T apologise! One guy I dance with regularly apologises every other move, and 99% of the time I really have no idea what for!!

[David Bailey]

:confused:But I've not posted on this thread yet! :what:.
Graham, Gadget - what. you expect me to tell you humans apart now? :blush:

(Sorry, Graham :flower: )

[Sheepman]

I also apologize when I think I've done a bad lead... Me too, it's a hard habit to break!

I know I've posted this somewhere before, but I think it's repeating, and I'm paraphrasing Amir.

The best way to avoid the lead going wrong (after all there are no mistakes just improvisations... :whistle: ) is once you've led your partner, you then follow her. i.e. you don't start a move expecting "this is what WILL happen" rather "this is what MAY happen" but if you're following her movement, then something different may result, you'll still be in a position to carry on smoothly.
And from my point of view, this is a technique that needs a lot of positive thought, I can't just do it on autpilot.
This is dependant on a few things of course, :-
knowing enough of the components of moves to be happy dealing with whatever position you're in. (Something that I think comes from learning each time you make a mistake and carry on, sometimes it works well, other times it doesn't, but hopefully a little sinks in each time.)
You also need to be able to maintain the rhythm, (even if you are almost standing still) as any recovery is much easier when you're both working to the same beat!

Greg

[ducasi]

once you've led your partner, you then follow her Like a shopping trolley. :wink:

And if I can paraphrase someone else (sorry, can't remember who! :blush:) the main difference that makes the more-experienced dancer look better than the beginner is that we're better at recovering from our mistakes and making them look deliberate. :nice:

[LMC]

As a follower who is also just getting to grips with leading -

- agree that it is incredibly irritating when a lead apologises for every other move - if it's smooth and there hasn't been a 'stop', then as followers, we genuinely probably won't know why you're apologising. So don't (well, unless you've hit us over the head or trod on us)

- keep going. If you end up on the 'wrong hand' you can easily sling in a manspin to get from left to right or a backpass to get from right to left if your brain goes blank. Getting into a 'flow' is definitely just practice. If all else fails, you can do a quick cheat by switching hands during a turn or return - but a manspin or backpass will waste more time while you're frantically thinking of what move you can do next :D

And above all:


Above all, a sense of proportion and humour will help :)
:yeah:

Dancing is too important to take too seriously :D

Hope BB went well, be patient with yourself (love from Pot :blush: )

[robd]

As others have said it can be difficult to get out of the habit of apologising but you do need to take the view that there are no mistakes in freestyle, only instances where execution didn't match intention.

[Piglet]

As a relatively new start I'm finding that My leads are not as good as they can be and sometimes I'll "signal" for move A and get Move B instead.
I can't say I've noticed this at all :hug:


For example.. suppose I'm "attempting" a side to side. Instead of Blocking with my left elbow I let the lady spin on through.
I'm really bad at missing this one - so if you've tried it on me then it will be my fault probably, but as I say I haven't noticed that we did the wrong move - if that was the case so you're already covering up well if that's happened during one of our dances.

A tip for the side to side that works with me (cos its how Lisa used to always teach it) was for the guy to click his fingers with his right hand as he is facing me - then I know its the side to side coming. Mind you, I haven't seen it taught that way for a long time (so some newer ladies might not recognise it as a signal) but it definitely works for me :D

[MartinHarper]

I'd like to add a caveat to the excellent advice others have given, particularly as this is Beginners Corner.

When something goes wrong as a lead, there's really nothing wrong with letting go of your partner's hands/back/whatever, backing off, and restarting with an arm jive. Any decent follower will be able to fill for a few beats while you restart. Of all the options, it's always the least stressful and most reliable. Dancing out of trouble is great when it works, but it's more stressful, and you risk making the situation worse, particularly as a beginner. Why bother putting yourself and your partner through that if you don't have to?

[straycat]

Another caveat ... something I've seen quite a few people do when they think they've made a mistake is to PANIC and quickly grab for the hand they missed, or shuffle quickly over to the place they think they should be in, or stop their incorrect-direction spin to spin the other way (OK - so that's more likely to be a follower thing) ....

Not necessary. Just relax - you have all the time in the world - you can pick up the missed hand in a few seconds time, you can just stand there and look cool and unflappable for a sec (maybe clicking your fingers to the beat), step slowly back to your partner while you pick up the beat again - anything - just, just keep it simple, do it s-l-o-w-l-y.... chill. relax. Have fun. (and dance) :waycool:

[spindr]

There are a couple of advanced techniques :devil:

1). Just release both hands and place them on your hips -- then stare at your partner and make a loud "tutting" sound while simultaneously rolling your eyes. Wait until they come back and then start dancing again. Kudos to Gary Boon for teaching that one during a shag class at Rock Bottoms :)

2). As above, except instead of staring and tutting your partner -- run your finger along the floor and then stamp an imaginary nail back in place (think of something analagous to replacing a divot when gofling).

SpinDr

[LMC]

A certain well known forumite (ach, he'd want me to name and shame, so I will - ESG) has once or twice held both my hands above my head and clapped them together when a move has gone completely pear-shaped. He only leads that move for a couple of seconds, but I try to react fast enough to make seal noises (just following appropriately :innocent: )

[David Franklin]

There are a couple of advanced techniques :devil:

1). Just release both hands and place them on your hips -- then stare at your partner and make a loud "tutting" sound while simultaneously rolling your eyes. Wait until they come back and then start dancing again. Kudos to Gary Boon for teaching that one during a shag class at Rock Bottoms :)

2). As above, except instead of staring and tutting your partner -- run your finger along the floor and then stamp an imaginary nail back in place (think of something analagous to replacing a divot when gofling).Why not go the whole hog, and just do this (http://www.guzer.com/videos/crazy_dance_slap.php)?

[MartinHarper]

I occasionally slap my leading hand when it's been naughty, but I think the linked option is a little OTT.

[LMC]

Please may I slap your leading hand if it's naughty?

[Beowulf]

Please may I slap your leading hand if it's naughty?

If I promise to be naughty will you spank.. erm I mean slap me? :whistle: :drool: http://www.skyfall.co.uk/blink.gifhttp://www.skyfall.co.uk/whip.gif :rofl:

[tomboh]

keep going. If you end up on the 'wrong hand' you can easily sling in a manspin to get from left to right or a backpass to get from right to left if your brain goes blank.

That advice works well, but recently I found myself stuck in another hold I wasn't used to: right to right. The first few times this happened I got confused and couldn't blag my way out of it, but then it clicked that leading into a sway deals with this gracefully and easily.

[LMC]

That advice works well, but recently I found myself stuck in another hold I wasn't used to: right to right. The first few times this happened I got confused and couldn't blag my way out of it, but then it clicked that leading into a sway deals with this gracefully and easily.
The backpass will handle this one - or a yo yo with a pushspin :nice: (I was talking about the switch from the lead's POV). The only one that is 'hard' to switch for a beginner lead like me is if I end up somehow holding the follower's left hand only - only way I got out of that one is to send 'em into a wurlitzer/spin or do a double handed move.

[tomboh]

The backpass will handle this one - or a yo yo with a pushspin :nice: (I was talking about the switch from the lead's POV).

Whoops, I meant right to left... :blush:

[LMC]

Hang on, now I'm confused - do you mean your right, follower's left? - can't see how a sway would work without letting go :confused:. I just tend to go for a double handed move in those cases :shrug: - usually an octopus or basket (wurlitzer exit might also be possible depending on follower's balance).

If I somehow end up with "crossed hands" (technically called accordion hold IIRC?) then I'm afraid I just use a cheesy hallelujah exit :blush: :sorry: :sorry:

[tomboh]

Hang on, now I'm confused - do you mean your right, follower's left? - can't see how a sway would work without letting go

:yeah:

It's a bit fiddly pulling towards and out, letting go then catching, but it sort of works.


If I somehow end up with "crossed hands" (technically called accordion hold IIRC?) then I'm afraid I just use a cheesy hallelujah exit

I usually get out of these with a comb, or turn into a catapult, but you mentioning this has made me realise I could turn a R-L hold into an accordian hold, which would work better than a sway.

I hope I have the quick wittedness to give this a try some time.

[Nick M]

[QUOTE=tomboh]Whoops, I meant right to left...QUOTE] Assuming you are holding the followers left hand in your right -

Go into a catapault (same movement as if you were holding right to right)
Offer your left hand behind you - she takes it - drop your right
Pull her back under to your left and Bingo - you are back on a Left to Right hold

[Beowulf]

Well I was trying some of the above tips last night. Didn't do QUITE so many fluffs and when I did I kept them to myself.

What REALLY boosted my confidence last night was a couple of REALLY good dances (With everyone who was there, but Esp Freya and Piglet) And when I danced with Freya she clsoed her eyes to just take input from my lead with no visual clues.. and I didn't fluff up so Perhaps My lead isn't so bad anymore !!

And I'm going danging tonight again.. (Now I'm "in the zone" ;) )

[Almost an Angel]

Beo

I think it was David B who said - (forgive me if it's not quite quoted correctly but I can't be bothered to search)

Dance is an invitation - the Leader invites the lady to do a specific move and the lady then then has the choice whether to accept that invitation or not.

So the fact that you feel the lead is incorrect may just be the lady chosing to interpret the lead /music differently to that which you had anticipated rather than your lead. I know I frequently steal the lead - although I do tend to be pretty blatant about it - and always try to hand the lead back when I've finished.

Ladies following with their eyes closed is a great way to build trust and confidence - although if I'm doing that I'm normally reluctant to do anything but follow so my own interpretation of the dance takes a back seat and I'm more attuned to my partners lead as opposed to the dance being more than the two of us. (if that makes sense)

Angel xx

[Gav]

Just my two penneth.

I used to apologise every other move!

The only time I apologise now is on the very rare occasion that I lose concentration and my lead is soooooo weak that the lady has a confused look on her face, or if I manage to bump, tread on toes etc. :blush:

I find now that I'm dancing with beginner ladies who apologise for not quite doing what I expected and I'm telling them "who cares, keep dancing, you and I are the only ones who know about it!"

At one point I kept finding myself holding only the ladies left hand (presumably because I did something wrong in the last move!) and it did stump me. Then one very kind lady showed me the simplest of escapes. Prepare in one direction, flick spin in the other and catch the correct hand like that was what you intended all along.

[Beowulf]

Just my two penneth.

Or 1.7 p + VAT if you claim VAT back ;)


I used to apologise every other move!.

Yeah I do that as pointed out by Freya and Trampy on tuesday night. It's a bad habit I need to get out of


At one point I kept finding myself holding only the ladies left hand (presumably because I did something wrong in the last move!) and it did stump me. Then one very kind lady showed me the simplest of escapes. Prepare in one direction, flick spin in the other and catch the correct hand like that was what you intended all along.

cool! I sometimes end up holding the wrong hand either Right to Left or Left to Left.. Will have to remember that one ;) :respect:

[Genie]

Yes, the first thing you said to me before we danced was 'sorry'. You said it again once during the dance (although what for, I don't know) and again afterwards. Argh! *slap*

You're bot a bad lead. You're doing really well. You're biggest problem is not 'finding a way out of a mess up' but really 'not minding when I mess up because it's a dance and the only way to learn is to keep trying'.

As for fluffed leads, I don't experience those often, usually it's my fault :( In which case most men are wonderful at recovering me from it. Or I spin around and offer my right hand. That always works.

[Beowulf]

Yes, the first thing you said to me before we danced was 'sorry'. You said it again once during the dance (although what for, I don't know) and again afterwards. Argh! *slap*.

Sorry ! :wink: :whistle: :rofl:

it's force of habit these days.. I apologise for everything not just dancing. I even apologise for things that are not my fault some times..

"That Global warming thingie really on the increase now isn't it?"
"yeah.. sorry about that! I left my light on last night" :whistle:

[Gav]

Or 1.7 p + VAT if you claim VAT back ;)


or 3 European Cents? (almost a contradiction in terms!) :waycool:

[TurboTomato]

I used to apologise every other move!

The only time I apologise now is on the very rare occasion that I lose concentration and my lead is soooooo weak that the lady has a confused look on her face, or if I manage to bump, tread on toes etc. :blush:

I find now that I'm dancing with beginner ladies who apologise for not quite doing what I expected and I'm telling them "who cares, keep dancing, you and I are the only ones who know about it!"

At one point I kept finding myself holding only the ladies left hand (presumably because I did something wrong in the last move!) and it did stump me. Then one very kind lady showed me the simplest of escapes. Prepare in one direction, flick spin in the other and catch the correct hand like that was what you intended all along.

:yeah:

In a similar way, if I think too much about a move I want to do (and I'm left to left) and lose concentration I just end up going into a first move, then a first move, then a first move... :blush:

Normally I get out of it by doing a man spin or a shoulder slide to change to the right hand and then we're back off again

[Blueshoes]

Missed this the first time round, so here goes......

First of all things go wrong all the time, even for experienced couples, they just don't let it show. The trick is to KEEP GOING, smile :grin: at your partner and pretend that's what you wanted to do all along. If you don't think you've got away with it you could say to your partner "nice move".

Whatever position you end up in there is always a simple follow on move eg, if you end up r/r do a lady spin, l/r step accross, r/l prepare to left and flick spin right (like the end of the wurlitzer), l/l reverse lady spin. These moves will gain you time to think and help get back into the flow of the dance. It may be useful to practice these so you're ready when they're needed.

When things go horribly wrong I usually smile :grin: at my partner and say "new move!". Some of my best moves have come from when things didn't go to plan and it felt great!

Another scenario is if you're too far away from each other and can't reach their hand. Try walking behind your partner, turning then catch their hand, it looks batter than waggling your hand at them as if you're calling a pet dog over.....

On one occassion I found myself lying on the floor on top of my partner after we overbalanced - if this happens to you make the most of the opportunity! :grin: :grin:

[Gav]

Another scenario is if you're too far away from each other and can't reach their hand. Try walking behind your partner, turning then catch their hand, it looks batter than waggling your hand at them as if you're calling a pet dog over.....


:respect: Cool, that's one I hadn't managed to find a solution for yet, thx. :worthy:


On one occassion I found myself lying on the floor on top of my partner after we overbalanced - if this happens to you make the most of the opportunity!

Now, how to arrange to land on the correct person?! :rofl:

[Blueshoes]

Now, how to arrange to land on the correct person?! :rofl:

Easy, I'll give you a demo next time we meet..... ;)

[SeriouslyAddicted]

Ladies following with their eyes closed is a great way to build trust and confidence - although if I'm doing that I'm normally reluctant to do anything but follow so my own interpretation of the dance takes a back seat and I'm more attuned to my partners lead as opposed to the dance being more than the two of us. (if that makes sense)

Angel xx

Have you also tried it where there is no contact and the lady follows the lead simply by watching the mans footwork and hand movements? It is really quite hard work but a real sense of achievement if you manage it and it makes you more vigilant when you do go back to leading properly.

[SeriouslyAddicted]

:yeah:

In a similar way, if I think too much about a move I want to do (and I'm left to left) and lose concentration I just end up going into a first move, then a first move, then a first move... :blush:

Normally I get out of it by doing a man spin or a shoulder slide to change to the right hand and then we're back off again

Really? I hadn't noticed :na: Just kidding you are getting much better now and as soon as you realise you are doing it we just end up laughing so still having fun - thats the name of the game right?

[Genie]

Have you also tried it where there is no contact and the lady follows the lead simply by watching the mans footwork and hand movements? It is really quite hard work but a real sense of achievement if you manage it and it makes you more vigilant when you do go back to leading properly.

I've not tried that one. I can imagine it can't be easy. Because when a man leads you to step back or fwd, he uses pressure with his hands/arms/frame, to give you an idea of what direction he's about to go in.

Sounds like a challenge though. How would you go about following/leading something like that?

[SeriouslyAddicted]

I was following it, as the man spun me normally he didn't actually make any attempt to catch my hand so it all kind of started as messing around really he moved his arms as if he was going to arm jive swizzel me so I "followed" and we danced the routine from there. From a followers point of view it is all about watching the mans hand movements and where his weight is so that you can read where he wants you to go. It is hard work but worth a try!

[Frankie_4711]

Have you also tried it where there is no contact and the lady follows the lead simply by watching the mans footwork and hand movements? It is really quite hard work but a real sense of achievement if you manage it and it makes you more vigilant when you do go back to leading properly.

Sounds like fun! I might see if I can find someone to try that with (watch out Gentabout ... )