Yankers and Bouncers - any tips?

[Piglet]

After posting on another thread, Your Place or Mine? (What's it like dancing at other venues) can anyone help with strategies for coping with Yankers and Bouncers?

Bouncy isn't too bad - except when it is very very bouncy though - It's more really the rough dancers I don't enjoy - rough in bounce or rough in pulling me around. Is it up to me to give more tension back to try and compensate? Any tips would be grateful.

[Yliander]

After posting on another thread, Your Place or Mine? (What's it like at yours and other venues) can anyone help with strategies for coping with Yankers and Bouncers?

Bouncy isn't too bad - except when it is very very bouncy though - It's more really the rough dancers I don't enjoy - rough in bounce or rough in pulling me around. Is it up to me to give more tension back to try and compensate? Any tips would be grateful.
the best advice I can offer other than try and relax into what ever their motion is an asking if you can offer them some advice ... is that once identified don't dance with them - this sounds harsh but is the path I have to walk as yankers and bouncers can destroy my shoulder or hand and ruin an entire week of dancing for me.

what this means that you have to be prepared to either just say a simple no thank you - which give you the option of dancing with someone else or saying that you are resting which means you have to sit the song out.

[El Salsero Gringo]

After posting on another thread, Your Place or Mine? (What's it like dancing at other venues) can anyone help with strategies for coping with Yankers and Bouncers?

Bouncy isn't too bad - except when it is very very bouncy though - It's more really the rough dancers I don't enjoy - rough in bounce or rough in pulling me around. Is it up to me to give more tension back to try and compensate? Any tips would be grateful.I wouldn't try to 'fight back', but how about a quiet word in the ear (during the dance, not after) to say you'd appreciate a much lighter touch? Purely as a personal favour to you, of course.

[Donna]

After posting on another thread, Your Place or Mine? (What's it like dancing at other venues) can anyone help with strategies for coping with Yankers and Bouncers?

Bouncy isn't too bad - except when it is very very bouncy though - It's more really the rough dancers I don't enjoy - rough in bounce or rough in pulling me around. Is it up to me to give more tension back to try and compensate? Any tips would be grateful.

Well you could always put a bit more tension in the arms as a signal that they are being too rough or are not in time. (I do it all the time, and eventually they loosen up and.. start following me!! :D :rofl: ) Be careful not injure yourself though. Maybe it's just better to actually tell them, and just say it's hurting you (even if it's not!:D )

As for the bouncing....I can't stand it! Imagine, if we all danced like that at the same time?! This island would sink wouldn't it!!! :rofl:

[Gadget]

There are a couple of links in this thread: Workshop: Techniques in avoiding injury. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7459) (it's about whether we need one rather than tips) and the last couple of pages in my "leading" workshop give some advice on how to deal with common leading 'flaws'. (see my syg)

[MartinHarper]

If you focus more on maintaining your own frame as a follower, always maintaining some "shock absorber" in the arms, that can help you to take rougher leads without suffering injury. Failure to maintain frame can render you more vulnerable to injury - for example:
* Don't allow your arm to be fully extended
* Don't allow your elbow to go behind your back
* Don't allow your upper arm to cross in front of your chest (eg, in a basket)

[LMC]

Yanker: MORE tension could be the worst way to go - it might just make them yank more.

I consciously try to make sure my follow is light - and sometimes find that they 'respond' by yanking less. It might be a reasonable dancer who has just come away from dancing with a "resistant" follower, who they have had to be hauling around. Or someone who mistakenly imagines that they need to use extra strength to get me to move (:mad: ) because I'm taller than them and probably outweigh them

If a lighter follow doesn't work (and you can usually tell quite quickly whether someone is responding to the lighter follow) then I'll ask them to lead me more gently. If that doesn't work, then I go spaghetti arms (with just sufficient 'reserve' tension that they can't dislocate anything), try to grin and bear it and avoid them like the plague for the future. I never have had to "walk" away from a yanker (the advantages of being fairly tall and strong, and relatively physically fit). But I would if none of those worked. I'm pathetic too - if they hurt me then I yelp.

Bouncer: I have been known to follow the lead EXACTLY :devil: (it's bloody exhausting but can be quite amusing). There's someone I dance with relatively regularly who tends to bounce his hand - but it's not too bad and he's otherwise fabulous and great fun to dance with, so I just make sure I pick a reasonably fast/bouncy track to ask him and it doesn't seem to matter so much. Keeping your hand absolutely still and going 'spaghetti arm' as they drop their hand then picking up tension again as they lift it can sometimes help - because they lose tension themselves as their hand drops, the loss of connection and sensation of extra weight from your tension loss must be quite unpleasant. I also get mean and hijack more - they can't bounce their hand on some moves, so I'll take 4 beats to turn/return instead of one, or walk past them s-l-o-w-l-y if they lead a manspin/step across/similar :devil:

[Sparkles]

If someone is yanking my arm I take my hand away. No 'if's, no 'but's, I just remove my hand from their grip (however vice-like). This sometimes stops the dance and produces a puzzled expression - at which point I smile (as sweetly as I can) and say "Oh, I'm sorry but I have a bad arm and it was hurting, please could you be more gentle?". It has worked every time without fail (so far) in stopping someone yanking my arm.

As for bouncers - either go with it (which can be a lot of fun) or resist it (and get fed up), the choice is yours... but it is only 3-5mins after all!

[Lory]

There's a guy who dances around my area who's affectionately called 'bouncing Bob' by everyone, he really is the bounciest dancer ever :really: but strangely, he FEELS pleasant to dance with as he hardly bounces his hand at all. :nice:

Re: Yankers.. I've tried all sorts, inc spaghetti arms AND trying to match their tension :sick: but that really is the worst thing to do, unless you want to exhaust yourself and do quadruple spins off into oblivion....:(

In all honesty, the only thing that really works, is to smile sweetly and ask them if they wouldn't mind being a little bit 'gentler' with you! :innocent: And if that doesn't work, as the others have said.. AVOID them like the plague in the future! :devil:

[Minnie M]

....... In all honesty, the only thing that really works, is to smile sweetly and ask them if they wouldn't mind being a little bit 'gentler' with you! :innocent: And if that doesn't work, as the others have said.. AVOID them like the plague in the future! :devil:
:yeah:
Totally agree :flower:

[Twirly]

Interesting to read these tips. So much of the safety/avoiding injury advice seems to be centred around dips and drops (understandably) so it’s good to read some on more everyday moves.

We can’t always refuse to dance with a yanker – if you get them at the end of either the beginners or intermediate class and haven’t as yet realised they have that habit. I got one of those a few weeks ago at the end of beginners. He yanked and only used my right hand/arm for the whole dance – didn’t touch my left hand once (I was actually quite surprised to see him in the intermediate class later). I realised part way through that if I kept my arm bent more than usual (about a 90 degree angle) that it mitigated his yanking somewhat, though my arm was still sore after the dance and it probably looked a bit odd. He also looked utterly miserable and didn’t look at me once during the dance… so not sure he’d have taken any feedback on board anyway.

Whilst lack of assertiveness has never ever been a problem for me, I do find it almost impossible to tell someone like that what they are doing wrong in the middle of a dance (or afterwards even I’m ashamed to say). Must practise! I did manage to tell a vice-like gripper with long nails (for a bloke – no idea how you guys cope, and yes, I have read the “talons” thread!) what he was doing to me with a loud “ouch” and a grabbing away of my hand recently too – he clearly had no idea what he was doing to me from his reaction.

[Donna]

:yeah:
Totally agree :flower:

:flower: Moi aussi!!!

There is one guy up here who is extremely bouncy. So bouncy in fact, you have NOOOO choice but to get bouncy with him. (Ahem..that just doesn't sound right does it?:blush: :innocent: )

[Beowulf]

[Newbie Mode engaged]

Ok I understand Yankers (thanks to Gadgets Most Excellent FAQ) But what exactly is a bouncer? I mean, it sounds pretty explanatory but is it a male or a female trait? is it some one who's just a bit bouncy in they way they dance and why is that bad?

sorry .. am a bit green and the definition of Bouncer was missing from the FAQ

[/Newbie Mode disengaged]

[MartinHarper]

When folks speak of bouncers, they normally mean people who bounce their entire body up and down with the music, or people who bounce their leading/following hand up and down with the music. Body bouncers are fine to dance with, but some people don't like it because they feel undignified. Hand bouncers are tricky insofar as it's a symptom of a disconnect between lead/follow hand and rest of body, so lead/follow is harder.

It's a recurring topic on the forum.

[Rhythm King]

And followers can be just as guilty of both traits as leaders.

I have only once got to the stage of stopping dancing with someoene and having to explain that she was hurting me to the point of having to physically disengage from her. It was a combination of talonned death-grip and fierce step back leading to a serious case of yanking. When I told (and showed) her what effect she was having on me, she was good as gold and said that she hadn't realised she was doing it, and that no-one had mentioned it before. From then on she was actually quite pleasant to dance with.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I do find it almost impossible to tell someone like that what they are doing wrong in the middle of a dance (or afterwards even I’m ashamed to say). Would it help to change your frame of reference so that instead of 'telling someone what they're doing wrong', ask them just to do something different - just for you - not pull quite so hard, because *you* find it uncomfortable, for instance, or take off the diamond studded ring because it's hurting *you*. I find it easier to ask for a personal favour than to deliver a rebuke or correction, however mild.

[Donna]

Would it help to change your frame of reference so that instead of 'telling someone what they're doing wrong', ask them just to do something different - just for you - not pull quite so hard, because *you* find it uncomfortable, for instance, or take off the diamond studded ring because it's hurting *you*.

OR, you could take the diamond studded ring off yourself, place it on your finger, then punch him on the forehead leaving a nice mark, and say, 'hey does that hurt?!':D

[Lynn]

I wouldn't try to 'fight back', but how about a quiet word in the ear (during the dance, not after) to say you'd appreciate a much lighter touch? Purely as a personal favour to you, of course.I did this recently after dancing with someone gave me a sore shoulder for almost a week. I honestly don't think that he realised he could injure someone. I took him to one side so that it wasn't in front of anyone, I was gentle (but firm) and tactful. I then felt that having said something I should dance with him again - if he continued to be too rough then I would avoid him.

Glad to say that his lead has become much lighter, when dancing with me at least. Last time we danced I commented on this and thanked him.

I personally wouldn't normally do it during the dance though, as I think guys have enough to think about when leading without us offering feedback mid dance. Also it can be harder to hear above the music, comments can be too easily misinterpreted etc. If they were really rough then I might say something, or hijack, do my own thing, anything to minimise injury potential.

[Gadget]

But what exactly is a bouncer?It's a big bloke in a black puffy jacket who stands on the edge of the dance floor and forceably ejects the Yankers. :whistle:

In this context, it referrs to someone who 'keeps the beat' in their hands by bouncing it up and down; like drumming, but using your partner's hands as the drumsticks.

Obviously it's quite difficult to lead or follow with all that physical noise disrupting the connection, so you have four primary options:
1) 'strong-arm' the bounce away and attempt to keep your hand fixed in the same horizontal plane; hard work and can result in over-exertion, but your partner may get the idea and smooth out the bounce.

2) loosen the hold so that the bounce will remove your partner's connection from yours - can only be done with someone who dosn't have a "gibbon grip", and they may just think that they need to be more forcefull in the connection.

3) go with it and try to match the bounce so you are both on the same frequency.

4) ask them to stop. (please.)

[Twirly]

Would it help to change your frame of reference so that instead of 'telling someone what they're doing wrong', ask them just to do something different - just for you - not pull quite so hard, because *you* find it uncomfortable, for instance, or take off the diamond studded ring because it's hurting *you*. I find it easier to ask for a personal favour than to deliver a rebuke or correction, however mild.

Good idea ESG, thanks - have done this with something else recently and it's working so I'll try it with this too.


I personally wouldn't normally do it during the dance though, as I think guys have enough to think about when leading without us offering feedback mid dance. Also it can be harder to hear above the music, comments can be too easily misinterpreted etc. If they were really rough then I might say something, or hijack, do my own thing, anything to minimise injury potential.

:yeah: Although I'd probably have to say something as I'm not skilled enough to hijack properly yet - but give me time! :wink:

[Sheepman]

Whilst lack of assertiveness has never ever been a problem for me, I do find it almost impossible to tell someone like that what they are doing wrong in the middle of a dance (or afterwards even I’m ashamed to say). Must practise! It does seem mad that we can struggle to tell someone that they are hurting us, when we're supposed to be enjoying ourselves, I wonder if there are similar problems in sports like judo?
I have to admit I'm probably as bad as anyone with this, I do think that generally the leader has more control, so can mitigate the pain, but perhaps next time I come across it, I will have the nerve to say I'm in pain! :blush:

Maybe the way to look at it, is that we're not just doing it for ourselves, but for all those partners that would otherwise continue to suffer...

Greg

[Twirly]

Is it a very British thing do you think? Taking good manners to extremes - we are known for apologising when someone else bumps into us after all!

Will I now get slated by all those non-British folks here?! :rolleyes:

[Lynn]

Maybe the way to look at it, is that we're not just doing it for ourselves, but for all those partners that would otherwise continue to suffer... I was thinking that as well. I could just have avoided dancing with this guy but that would just be avoiding the problem, not providing any solution. I would have had to give excuses for not dancing with him and I don't like doing that unless I have to, I don't like 'pretending'.

I don't think anyone had said anything to him before so it might have been a bit of a surprise to him but I wasn't criticising his style just because I didn't like it, it was a matter of actually being in pain for several days. I raised the subject, we discussed it, I've danced with him since and really enjoyed it.

It can be worth saying something, esp if its someone you are likely to encounter again. Then at least if they don't listen and still do it, you can refuse them without having to make up some excuse and if you do they might realise its a real problem if you actually won't dance with them because they are so rough and that in itself might make them think again and try to adjust their style.

[LMC]

Can I just add a wee thing to that?

If they do improve, please compliment them! A rather "too strong" dancer at my local venue improved no end in the few weeks after I asked him to be more gentle with me, and demonstrated that I could follow just as well (in fact, better without the sharp stops/changes of direction that yanking provides). He was touchingly pleased when I told him how nicely he was leading just a couple of weeks later :nice:

Re: what Sheepman said about not just telling them 'for ourselves' - I've said before on here that it's really depressing when someone's response to your request for no thumbs, less yanking, clean up, etc etc etc is "No one else has ever said anything". It creates a vicious circle - because those of us who do say something - actually, no, bad LMC, don't speak for others, maybe it's just me. If I get the "no-one else has complained" reaction, I immediately wonder if I am the one being unreasonable and am less likely to say something 'next time' to someone else.

I do try to "put it on me" - i.e. "I'm the one that's being annoying asking you to change" rather than "you're doing it wrong". Unfortunately, some people will still see this as criticism (well, it is really innit?) and react negatively. However, I would hope it would be difficult for someone to dismiss criticism if several people (effectively) give them the same feedback ...

[DavidB]

In physics, when you get two waves of the same frequency and amplitude, but opposite phase, they cancel out.

So has anyone tried equal and opposite bouncing? When your partner moves their hand up, you move yours down. The net effect should be really smooth.

[Lynn]

Can I just add a wee thing to that?

If they do improve, please compliment them! A rather "too strong" dancer at my local venue improved no end in the few weeks after I asked him to be more gentle with me, and demonstrated that I could follow just as well (in fact, better without the sharp stops/changes of direction that yanking provides). He was touchingly pleased when I told him how nicely he was leading just a couple of weeks later :nice:Yep, did that. I got a big smile when I offered the positive feedback on the now much more gentle lead.

[LMC]

In response to DB - I suspect that the dance would flatline within seconds...

Me likey this idea :devil:

[El Salsero Gringo]

If I get the "no-one else has complained" reaction, I immediately wonder if I am the one being unreasonable and am less likely to say something 'next time' to someone else.The obvious answer is: "It's not anyone else you're dancing with at the moment it's me! So, just for me, please, lead a little softer!"

[LMC]

And that's pretty much what they get from me.

If you manage never to have any negative thoughts and think and act logically 100% of the time, you must tell me how it's done sometime. Negative thoughts don't necessarily lead to negative action. They are less easy to conquer though.

[Sparkles]

So has anyone tried equal and opposite bouncing? When your partner moves their hand up, you move yours down. The net effect should be really smooth.

Have you ever tried to 'opposite bounce' with someone?! :eek:

It's practically impossible... like dancing off time :rolleyes:

[WittyBird]

When I get Bouncers and yankers I just form a really sturdy grip and try and put them off it.

[Piglet]

Thanks for all the advice folks! Thankfully this isn't a problem I meet a lot and I find I only meet it when dancing in different cities where I don't really know some of the dancers - though I have learned the hard way to stop asking guys who are sitting for a dance because sometimes there's a reason for them being sitting :rofl:

I like a lot of what has been recommended and shall certainly try a few of these ideas if I need them in future. I think I'm a pretty light follow anyway and my dream dance is a very light lead (in most circumstances - but I can think of others where a firm lead is very pleasing :wink: )

A special hug to Donna for making me laugh at least 3 times :hug: hope to meet you some day soon :hug:

[Gadget]

I think I'm a pretty light follow anyway ...:flower: I can confim it - definetly one of the lightest and most responsive followers I've ever had the pleasure of dancing with.

[Piglet]

Why thank you Gadget - I don't think my smile could get any bigger if I tried :flower: I guess I'm just lucky to have some of my favourite dancers on hand in Aberdeen to practice with :hug:

[marty_baby]

Just had a brainwave on this one! :na:


If it is a bouncing hand - jump up and down to the beat of the partner!

They'll get the message real quickly! :rofl:

[Donna]

Just had a brainwave on this one! :na:


If it is a bouncing hand - jump up and down to the beat of the partner!

They'll get the message real quickly! :rofl:


:rofl: :yeah: I'd do it as a dare!:wink:

[LMC]

Been there, done it - and Missy D beat me to it (I pinched the idea from her!) (oh, and see my post up there ^^^ :innocent: )

Response: bewildered looks. One guy actually asked me why I was jumping up and down and was not amused when I pointed out that I was following the lead from his hand. Especially as the track was Amado Mio :rofl:

So you can't do it as a dare Donna, sorry... but do try it anyway, it's fun :devil: