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El Salsero Gringo
12th-June-2006, 02:31 PM
Bits of discussion going round the Forum at the moment as to what constitutes a 'fair comment' about other people, be it who they choose to dance with, how they dance, what they look like in amateur cabaret, etc.

Personally I think criticisms (or otherwise negative commentary) is fair enough as long as it's proportionate, directed and sincere.

What do other people think? Would you prefer not to read any 'bad' things about people? What makes someone a legitimate target of comment? Is it ok to be negative about someone specific as long as you leave the description vague enough?

Simply, what's fair play, and what's below the belt?

LMC
12th-June-2006, 02:44 PM
It seems that "presentation" is everything. No-one can argue with your opinion. However, presenting your opinion as fact (for instance, oooooh, let me pull something out of the blue, like "It was sh1te") is more likely to make people see red...

In my opinion of course.

Andreas
12th-June-2006, 03:26 PM
If there is something positive coming out of it, i.e. constructive criticism, then I don't think there is anything wrong with it. But at the end of the day it is all in the eye of the beholder. If a person decides to feel offended by criticism that was meant constructive then there is nothing one can do about it. It is the recipients prerogative. :flower:

Msfab
12th-June-2006, 03:29 PM
Its all about Perception!:rolleyes: :innocent:

David Franklin
12th-June-2006, 03:34 PM
Simply put, I would say the vast majority of dancers overestimate what their dancing looks like to other people. Get anyone to watch a video of themselves dancing for the first time, and the chances are they will be very disappointed at the discordance between their imagined self and reality.

Even amongst those of us who have been videoed many times, I think most still tend to overestimate - these things all take so much time and work nowadays that you have to believe in what you're doing; you have to believe you can come out with a good performance. You basically have to delude yourself!

So the odds are that any criticism will be perceived as negative. Now that's not to say -ve criticism is a bad thing, indeed it's pretty essential if people want to improve. But I would stick with the adage that you should praise publicly and criticise privately.

ducasi
12th-June-2006, 03:43 PM
Criticism of private individuals is best done in private.

Commentary or opinion on unidentifiable individuals when making a point about something else I think can also be OK. (E.g. "I didn't enjoy that event – too many yankers.")

Different rules apply for people making a living based on public opinion. I.e. public criticism of teachers or events has a definite value, though ideally the criticism should be moderated and constructive.

But every particular circumstance requires its own judgement.

stewart38
12th-June-2006, 03:51 PM
If I said on a public forum a comment like lets say

They all have the musical interpretation of a telephone directory it would be inappropriate/shallow wrong and without the personal experience to back it up

If I’d help choreograph 250 Broadway musical hits it might have more merit but still it wouldn’t ‘add’ anything to the throw away comment

I could say I didn’t think the performance was as good as I expected given that level of commitment and explain why

Both might get a strong reaction but one is phased slightly different

I’ve learnt (and I still sometimes get it wrong) that what ever I personally think of a couple/ routine, there is a way of saying it that’s not so ‘inflammatory’

If I sincerely believe something was ***** id ask what was I comparing it with
Ask what my experience was in dance and dance routines and state why it was so *****

Because ive taken part in these cabaret sets before I take comments like that personally

El Salsero Gringo
12th-June-2006, 04:08 PM
I wasn't just thinking of comments on someone's dancing: there's a lot more said around here: whether someone's a perv, or a sleaze, whether they smell, whether they're a hot shot, whether they don't dance with beginners and so on. There's also criticism about venues - too hot, too crowded, not crowded enough, too slippery, too sticky, too far, too cliquey, too dark, too whatever. And comments about DJ's - too much swing, too much latin, too much pop, too much opera and so on. These are all negative comments I've heard. What's OK to say on the Forum and what isn't?

CJ
12th-June-2006, 04:14 PM
As long as it is easier to kick someone else for what they have done than it is to do something, there will always be criticism on the forum.

My hope is that the criticism is fair, considered and without malice.:flower:

Twirly
12th-June-2006, 04:20 PM
And comments about DJ's - too much swing, too much latin, too much pop, too much opera and so on. These are all negative comments I've heard. What's OK to say on the Forum and what isn't?

Isn’t this to some extent in the eye of the beholder of the criticism – how it is perceived? If an observation is made on say the music in a venue, then if you are the DJ/friend of the DJ there, you might happen to take offence at the comment (even if it’s not intended to be critical), whereas for someone who doesn’t know the venue it could simply be a useful piece of information about what to expect and whether that style of music might appeal to you. If you like latin or pop, then having more of that is going to be a good thing, not a bad thing!

I’m finding reading comments about dancing here very useful, as I can look at it and go away and analyse my dancing in light of it. For example, I read someone on here today (sorry, can’t remember who) saying that they don’t like women who hang onto their hand too tightly and crush their fingers. So I can now make sure that I don’t do that – I probably don’t, but now I’ll be more aware.

I do mean general comments though – obviously singling someone out for special criticism is horrible. If you wouldn’t like it done to you, then don’t do it to someone else!

DavidB
12th-June-2006, 04:23 PM
If you do anything in public, then you invite criticism.

Being paid to teach or perform should attract the most criticism. You are taking people's money - they are entitled to seek value for it.

Competing, or unpaid performance, or taxiing is lower down the scale.

Regularly criticising someone in a public forum ranks alongside teaching or paid performance.

I am not saying criticism shouldn't be allowed. It is just that if you decide to criticise someone in a public forum, you invite criticism on yourself - just like a professional performance.

Graham
12th-June-2006, 06:02 PM
I think that the best guide is to treat comments here as if we were physically having a group discussion. If you would be perfectly happy to say something to someone's face in front of an audience, then go ahead. If you wouldn't, then you should perhaps ask yourself whether it's something you really want to say here. As in real life, there is of course a risk of causing far graver offence than you intended, so you must be prepared to take the chance that someone will be angry/upset.

Obviously this only applies to comments where there is an identifiable target - general statements such as "I think there are many people who go to weekenders who aren't very good dancers" is an opinion, not a criticism. "Joe Bloggs isn't a very good dancer" is both an opinion and a criticism.

MartinHarper
12th-June-2006, 09:45 PM
I think public consumer feedback is almost always fine. If I'm paying money for something, or thinking about doing so, then of course I'll want to discuss with other consumers and try to get the best value for money I can. Sometimes it's more appropriate to criticise a product, rather than the individual providing the product. I think if an individual isn't featured on a product's literature, then it's probably a better idea to criticise the product, not the individual.


If you decide to criticise someone in a public forum, you invite criticism on yourself - just like a professional performance.

Sure, I agree with that. However, I think the reality is that nobody is likely to waste much time criticising my dancing, no matter how much I deserve it, without me giving them some cash.

David Bailey
12th-June-2006, 10:20 PM
I'm a big fan of criticism - although I too like to spin it as "feedback" too - no surprise there. I think it's an excellent way to improve things.

I take David Franklin's point about teachers / performers not posting because they don't like criticism. And there was an interesting comparison made on the Aussie ceroc forum (here (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?p=45272#post45272)) which indicates that this forum is indeed seen as critical and confrontational. On the other hand, it's got 2,000+ registered members and 200,000+ posts, so it's not exactly dying through inattention.

In addition, I've made a couple of minor critical comments in the past which have been jumped on - remember the ""crap Ceroc teachers" furore (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5218) ? Now, that didn't stop me, but I imagine that sort of overreaction would definitely put some people off making any comment more negative than "Loved every second, dahling, you were marvellous". :rolleyes:

So, how can we accommodate these opposing views, whilst retaining the maximum nuber of the top-flight performers, and us normal plebs, as contributors?

Hmmm... Maybe we could have "Critics Corner" section of the Forum, for exactly that type of "feedback" post?

jiveknight
12th-June-2006, 11:03 PM
I could say I didn’t think the performance was as good as I expected given that level of commitment and explain why

Both might get a strong reaction but one is phased slightly different

I’ve learnt (and I still sometimes get it wrong) that what ever I personally think of a couple/ routine, there is a way of saying it that’s not so ‘inflammatory’

If I sincerely believe something was ***** id ask what was I comparing it with
Ask what my experience was in dance and dance routines and state why it was so *****

Because ive taken part in these cabaret sets before I take comments like that personally

I agree. One rule of thumb can be to think "how would I like them to say that to me". If its needed can it be said privately? if not can it be said constructively without invalidating the person? - if your intention is really to improve something you would say it when and how it would actually help change something for the better.

Difficult to keep to, granted, but I try to treat people as I would like them to treat me (but also try to be able to experience anything, because not everybody is saying it to help...).

Graham
13th-June-2006, 12:02 AM
So, how can we accommodate these opposing views, whilst retaining the maximum nuber of the top-flight performers, and us normal plebs, as contributors?
I think the key to successful criticism is that the recipient needs to believe that one is being fair, sincere, and is doing it for positive reasons: one wants the recipient to know where they're going wrong so that they can improve, or so that other people in a similar position to the recipient can improve, or if it's something being sold, simply to inform others before they buy. Ideally, I think one should explain what the motivation is for posting the criticism at all.

By being fair, I mean that one should be clear about what the expectations were or what the standards are by which one is judging, and these should be appropriate. There's little point in judging a primary school soccer team by the standards one would apply to Real Madrid - one would be telling people nothing they didn't already know, even without seeing the performance.

By being sincere, I mean of course simply being honest, but also giving appropriate qualification where necessary, such as "I've only been once" or "I should point out that my cousin is this person's biggest rival", etc.

Finally, as has already been pointed out, the difference between a positive and negative reaction is often down to the delivery: always assume that the target of your criticism is going to personally read your post (or worse have it paraphrased by one of their mates) and before posting try to read it from their point of view - are they likely to interpret it in the way you mean it? For that matter, is everyone else?

Wendy
13th-June-2006, 12:44 AM
I must admit I often find it hard to be critical on the forum. (Hasn't stopped me though ) There can be a very powerful wave of joy about events etc and coming in with a list of negatives would be like swimming against the tide. The thing about us lot is that we want to enjoy these events. We want to come back having had a great time. We don't want to be disappointed and so we look at the positives. (I shouldn't say we and should only speak for myself but I feel it is a group mentality.) I had a cr*p time at Southport most of the time and maybe if there was a negative thread about it I would feel more inclined to expand.

In addition, I probably don't like looking like Ms Moaner in public. This is a performance-driven and dare I say it a rather superficial environment to a great extent. (It would have to be with 1000 people talking at once !) I don't expect those who mope around at events get many dances. They are possibly sitting alone in a chalet somewhere so no-one can see them.

My point ? Yeah it's hard to be critical or to complain here. Danceland is a happy land.... a bit like Disneyland I imagine. It's on the edge of Show business...it's entertainment.... or a mild drug to take us out of our real worlds.

Keep the critisim coming DJ and co. but expect the backlash.

Wx

Cruella
13th-June-2006, 08:28 AM
I wasn't just thinking of comments on someone's dancing: there's a lot more said around here: whether someone's a perv, or a sleaze, whether they smell, whether they're a hot shot, whether they don't dance with beginners and so on.....
You really shouldn't take it so personally. :rolleyes:

Raphael
13th-June-2006, 09:30 AM
I say little, on the forum but may I suggest that criticism is often a reflection of what we don’t like about ourselves, and the louder we shout the more we deny that which is a part of us, but often refuse to see. :nice:

However criticism can be good even when it is bad, for when delivered without aggression or deliberate intent of harm it can prove to be very constructive. :innocent:

Just think before writing and look, at what it is that has upset you or provoked you, and then look in a mirror and see what it is about you the person who is delivering it and the intent behind it before posting it. :yeah:

Zebra Woman
13th-June-2006, 10:02 AM
I say little, on the forum but may I suggest that criticism is often a reflection of what we don’t like about ourselves, and the louder we shout the more we deny that which is a part of us, but often refuse to see. :nice:

However criticism can be good even when it is bad, for when delivered without aggression or deliberate intent of harm it can prove to be very constructive. :innocent:

Just think before writing and look, at what it is that has upset you or provoked you, and then look in a mirror and see what it is about you the person who is delivering it and the intent behind it before posting it. :yeah:

Yes very well said Raph. I try to have a little think along those lines before leaping in...

Well...er...when I remember. :blush:

ZW

David Bailey
13th-June-2006, 10:09 AM
I think the key to successful criticism is that the recipient needs to believe that one is being fair, sincere, and is doing it for positive reasons: one wants the recipient to know where they're going wrong so that they can improve, or so that other people in a similar position to the recipient can improve, or if it's something being sold, simply to inform others before they buy. Ideally, I think one should explain what the motivation is for posting the criticism at all.
Well, yes - but that's in an ideal world. In the real world, it's difficult enough to elicit feedback in the first place, without putting all these hurdles in the way. And feedback is a Good Thing.


I say little, on the forum but may I suggest that criticism is often a reflection of what we don’t like about ourselves, and the louder we shout the more we deny that which is a part of us, but often refuse to see. :nice:
I dunno - I can't see that really. If I say, for example, a performance didn't work for me, then yes it reflects on my taste of course, but it doesn't necessarily signify more, does it? It's like if I said "I don't like carrots" - that doesn't mean I have deep-seated mental health issues which I'm trying to resolve by not liking carrots. I might just not like them...


In addition, I probably don't like looking like Ms Moaner in public. This is a performance-driven and dare I say it a rather superficial environment to a great extent. (It would have to be with 1000 people talking at once !) I don't expect those who mope around at events get many dances. They are possibly sitting alone in a chalet somewhere so no-one can see them.
But, and this is the crucial point, if people can be honest, and put the "highs and lows" in, we can get a balanced picture. You can guarantee that Wes and John (and other weekend organisers) are poring avidly over every "Southport" thread - it's probably the best feedback they're getting on their events. And if they get a balanced picture, they can improve the next events.

In fact, one of the things that distinguishes Southport / Jiveaddiction is their willingness to listen to feedback and act on it, and to innovate, keeping their events top-of-the-range. Without such feedback, the events would be poorer.

(By the way, I've also done the "sitting in chalet" thing, and it's crap. Top tip: get out of the chalet.. Have a swim, go for a walk, have a drink, buy a paper, whatever; anything's better than sitting in those places, they're inherently depressing)

Graham
13th-June-2006, 11:11 AM
Well, yes - but that's in an ideal world. In the real world, it's difficult enough to elicit feedback in the first place, without putting all these hurdles in the way. And feedback is a Good Thing.
The characteristics I described are hurdles to getting the recipient to pay attention, and they only exist in the real world. In an ideal world you could say what you liked, and the recipients of criticism would lift the constructive parts out and never be offended. If the recipient isn't listening, it's not feedback, it's just moaning. :wink:

Wendy
13th-June-2006, 02:01 PM
may I suggest that criticism is often a reflection of what we don’t like about ourselves, and the louder we shout the more we deny that which is a part of us, but often refuse to see. I agree with that and indeed read an interesting book something like "In the Light of the Dark Chasers " (forget) which advocates that we get angriest with people who display our worst characteristics cos it reminds us of our own shortcomings... and the things we were criticised for as a child and which we now desperately try to cover up make us angry and criticical when we see it in others. ie show offs really bug us since we were told not to show off when small.

Not sure what I'm covering anything up though when I'm being critical of only one hand dryer in the ladies' loo (possibly servicing 750 women in a weekend) which doesn't work :confused: Or why bar staff are unbelievably bad (and we did mention this after previous Southports.)

The rooms were really too hot and this is something that has been raised in the past too - surely something can be done about that.( I could try to sweat less :rolleyes:)

There are some things which can't be changed like the lay-out of the blues room so not much point being angry about that. I find it much easier to ask people to dance in the Blues Room at Camber cos there is seating all round the dance floor. I eventually stood at the wee ramp bit and pounced on people as I just simply wasn't being asked where I was sitting. So I overcame that wee hurdle and also stayed up really late to get the space and dances I needed and most enjoyed.

Do people who run such events really want feedback ? No sign of a customer care survey from the organisers - style "What could we do better ?" And as they are on the forum they could even start a thread on this. As 1000 people are happy enough to sign up for the next one then maybe they don't have to.

Wx

Wendy
13th-June-2006, 02:28 PM
(By the way, I've also done the "sitting in chalet" thing, and it's crap. Top tip: get out of the chalet.. Have a swim, go for a walk, have a drink, buy a paper, whatever; anything's better than sitting in those places, they're inherently depressing)Good advice and I didn't do that BTW. The point I was trying to make was that people are attracted to happy, bouncy, enthusiastic people and not to the moaning, long-faced sad people. Of course, you get the knight in shining armour types who are drawn to that kind of stuff.

I think people go to MJ for fun, to be cheered up, to play, to dress up and to hide a little from the world of deadlines, customer compaints, disappointment etc. So to be seen as less than happy or pointing a big finger at things which are less than perfect in that magic land is taking the risk of not being popular. And when something is captured in print that can leave an impression which is difficult to shake off, especially if the vast majority of the other comments are positive. A post like "Southport the aftermath" is not therefore likely to be balanced.

In addition, those who are brave enough to stand out from the crowd are more likely to be people who don't let the bone go. They talk louder and more and so stand out even more thus reinforcing the impression they made !*

Off to re-read" how to make friends and influence people"... still don't really get it :sick:

Wx

* We are the ones who propably most need a hug but are too scared to ask and in becoming (or risking becoming) unpopular we stay in the safety zone of not getting hugs. So here's a hug DJ :hug: - what the Hell !

Wendy
13th-June-2006, 03:01 PM
The book is "The Dark Side of the Light Chasers" by Debbie Ford

http://www.amazon.com/gp/sitbv3/reader/ref=sib_dp_top_toc/002-8604192-6232022?%5Fencoding=UTF8&pageID=S00D&asin=1573227358

Wx

Beowulf
14th-June-2006, 07:48 PM
That looks like a great book Wendy.

I know from personal experience I know I tend to have the worst arguments with people I like best. I agree that we do tend to pick on things we dislike about ourselves in others.

I'm not saying this in a Ceroc or forum capacity. I'm far too green to dare criticize others there. But I have noticed that, as someone who is very insecure about himself, I can get very annoyed over the slightest little minutiae of someone’s personality.

I'm also incredibly destructive. I mean that in a figurative way, If things seem to be going well with me, then rest assured that at some point I'll do or say something that will spoil things for me. As the book you linked to suggest we all have our shadows.

Not to drive too far from the direction this thread was pointing I do think that criticism as long as it's valid is fine but there is a fine line between what is acceptable and what isn't. As was correctly stated above, some people have the hides of rhino's and dish and receive harsh criticism with ne'er a flinch, whereas others are of a more delicate variety may take a comment harder than was originally meant. There's no hard and fast way to know where this boundary lies, only by really knowing the person really well (and by that how confident they are, if they have any hang-ups if they are of choleric temper etc) will a person really know how far is too far and know to pull their punches accordingly.

But criticism that is factually inaccurate, unconstructive or just plain downright cruel, well I can’t see a place for that anywhere. Be that on a forum, the dance floor or in work.

It’s a tricky question. And one that Will need some pondering over.

jivecat
14th-June-2006, 08:10 PM
I'd rep Wendy again for her balanced & considered comments on this thread but the system won't let me. I didn't experience Southport as Total Pleasure Overload either, for no especially clear reason, as I had loads of lovely dances & met lots of lovely people. Maybe I'm a bit bored with the set-up. And those dingy chalets do tend to drain away the will to live, it's the plastic dining chair effect.
Sorry, off topic. There didn't seem to be any point in trying to make a dent on the barrage of "Woohoos, fab fab fab". And if all the people who contributed to that felt that way, then good on them. (What were you all on, BTW?)

Wendy
15th-June-2006, 12:31 PM
I'd rep Wendy again for her balanced & considered comments on this thread but the system won't let me.?)

Now I know why my rep isn't that high :waycool: :flower: :flower: :flower:


I didn't experience Southport as Total Pleasure Overload either, for no especially clear reason, as I had loads of lovely dances & met lots of lovely people. Maybe I'm a bit bored with the set-up. And those dingy chalets do tend to drain away the will to live, it's the plastic dining chair effect.
Sorry, off topic. There didn't seem to be any point in trying to make a dent on the barrage of "Woohoos, fab fab fab". And if all the people who contributed to that felt that way, then good on them. (What were you all on, BTW?)

The chalet thing doesn't bother me - well it does but then that's what I expect. Although when I handed my keys in (after 12 :blush: ) and saw no dancers around, I realised that I wouldn't normally set foot in a place like that, never mind spend money to be there !

I wonder if 1500 is simply too many people. I only need about 100 men to have a good time :devil: with maybe 10 extra-special people to really make my heart skip. Sadly, the 10 extra-special ones are probably being chased by 750 women and are only likely to ask the women they already know. It makes sense - I'm not critising that. Perhaps smaller weekenders would suit me better.

The thing about MJ which we all appreciate I think is the friendliness, getting encouragement as a beginner, supportive taxis etc and I can't help thinking this gets lost at big weekenders. I can't imagine what it would be like going to Southport on your own without knowing of group of people beforehand either from knowing them personally of from the forum. I think it would be dance Hell unless you weren't bothered about asking for dances ALL the time or you were drop dead gorgeous or the world's best dancer.

It would be interesting to people-watch at these events and maybe it's time I learned how to work the system :rolleyes: . I expect people go around socialising a great deal to find out who is there and to make their mark and then their dance card is filled up for the weekend. I also wonder how often people really dance. Less than you'd think I expect. So maybe it is the socialising that gives people that buzz rather than the dancing ??

Perhaps the fact that I'm there to dance my pants off means that I get disappointed when the floor is too busy or I have to march round in massive workshops or have to pounce on people for a dance or stay up till 5/6/7am to get dances and space and air thus risk missing the workshops altogether.

Wx



Wx

David Bailey
15th-June-2006, 01:44 PM
I wonder if 1500 is simply too many people. I only need about 100 men to have a good time :devil: with maybe 10 extra-special people to really make my heart skip. Sadly, the 10 extra-special ones are probably being chased by 750 women and are only likely to ask the women they already know.
Ahh, The Ten return. I knew they'd never gone away.


I can't imagine what it would be like going to Southport on your own without knowing of group of people beforehand either from knowing them personally of from the forum.
Ummm... it was OK. Lonely bits, yes, but mostly fun. I think that's the situation for most people really.


I think it would be dance Hell unless you weren't bothered about asking for dances ALL the time or you were drop dead gorgeous or the world's best dancer.
Or, err, option 4? :confused:


I also wonder how often people really dance. Less than you'd think I expect. So maybe it is the socialising that gives people that buzz rather than the dancing ??
What are you implying, young lady? :innocent:

TiggsTours
15th-June-2006, 02:07 PM
There are some wonderful comments on here, but there is a difference between having criticism of something and complaining about it, and there are constructive ways of doing both.

Constructive criticism should be made to the right people, which is not necessarily someone who can change things. If I go to a dance event and they are playing music I don't really enjoy I won't necessarily make my criticism to the DJ as I am aware there are probably plenty of people who are enjoying the music, I may only make my criticism to somebody who is interested in what that venue is like. It would be along the lines of "Personally I don't really enjoy the music there, I'm not a great fan of latin music and the DJ there plays far too much of it for my liking".

Non-constructive criticism on the other hand would be directly angled at someone or something, without any recognition that the criticism is a personal opinion, or offer any room for improvement. For example "The music there is s***e".

A constructive complaint would be taken directly to the person or people who have some control, and would serve a purpose. For example, as a paying customer to an event, if there is a cabaret I would expect it to be of a certain standard, if it does not reach that standard, then as a paying customer I am perfectly entitled to be angry that my evening was disturbed. If a cabaret was of a particularly poor standard I would be quite within my rights to point my upset out to the people in charge, and hope they would then address that by improving the standard for future events. If they did not, then it would be up to me to either not attend those events, or move on to non-constructive complaining.

A non-constuctive complaint would involve moaning and whinging to anybody who can't do anything to change it, looking miserable and sloping off to your chalet. Somebody who does this (and we are all guilty of it at times to varying degrees) is no fun to be around, and offers nothing to the situation.

I guess what I'm saying is that I agree whole-heartedly with alot of what has been said, but I believe that some people are confusing criticism with complaining. However, whichever you choose to do, it should always be constructive, or else its a waste of time and effort.

spindr
15th-June-2006, 02:26 PM
:yeah:
There's an important distinction between expressing a personal opinion:
"I thought the music there is s***e"
and expressing it as an irrefutable a statement of "fact":
"The music there is s***e"

The first formulation at least leaves the thought that the poster of the opinion has no musical taste, etc., etc. Whereas the second version doesn't, and thus might get a stronger response -- and of course is the more cowardly version, since it implicitly drags everyone to support your viewpoint, rather than standing up for your individual opinion.

SpinDr.

Wendy
15th-June-2006, 02:36 PM
Wise words (TiggsTours) and I agree with what you say :worthy: Perhaps I do "complain" and maybe that IS a waste of time. It is nice to know that I am not alone however and the forum is a great place for that.

I started a thread "weekenders... what if ?" http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6442 ages ago and don't think I was heard by the organisers. Certainly none of my suggestions seem to have been considered. As I have already said there is no customer care survey.. that speaks volumes to me !!! and I am saddened by that as things can ALWAYS be better and "quality is free" afterall.

I am even prepared to put my money where my mouth is (and am not alone I expect) and be prepared to pay an extra pound (no pound sign as I have a French keyboard now) bringing in possibly 1500 pounds to pay for extra and/or decent bar staff or for someone to collect all the dirty glasses or for more than 2 people to be on the gate when 1500 people are turning up for an event etc etc etc.

Will I write to the organisers ? Probably not. I hope by talking about these things that others will feel they can too and not feel that EVERYONE had the best time and that they are the odd one out.

Wx

David Bailey
15th-June-2006, 03:16 PM
It would be along the lines of "Personally I don't really enjoy the music there, I'm not a great fan of latin music and the DJ there plays far too much of it for my liking".
:eek: :confused: :mad: :innocent: Well, I guess there are crazy people everywhere :na:

Funny, when I say something even less critical than that about a Certain Event At A Recent Weekender, I get criticised. Must be the way I tell 'em. :rolleyes:

As for the points about constructive and non-constructive criticism - I dunno, really I'm not sure if there's a huge amount of difference there, sometimes I think it's just down to the way people express themselves rather than the substance itself.


A constructive complaint would be taken directly to the person or people who have some control, and would serve a purpose.
It's very very difficult for most of us, even if we knew who the organisers are, to march up to them at an event and start haranguing them. So I don't really think that's a realistic scenario.

But, for example, comments on the Southport feedback thread are useful, and they are viewed by the organisers. OK, the organisers may not do what you personally want, but they'll usually take note.

Oh, and:

(no pound sign as I have a French keyboard now)x
Here you go: "£" :)

TiggsTours
15th-June-2006, 04:34 PM
It's very very difficult for most of us, even if we knew who the organisers are, to march up to them at an event and start haranguing them. So I don't really think that's a realistic scenario.
Certainly is, but you could always write to them, after the event, all organisers like feedback, sadly it is true that some only react well to the positive kind.

Gus
15th-June-2006, 04:58 PM
Perhaps I do "complain" and maybe that IS a waste of time. It is nice to know that I am not alone however and the forum is a great place for that.IMHO complaining is a TOTAL waste of time ... as long as the punters keep on coming back. I could list several venues/freestyles in our area where the music and DJs get totaly slated and people leave well before the end of the night. Will the organisers change any of this? NO ... because the muppet punters keep on coming back for more of the same cr@p :rolleyes: . The only thing that motivates organisers is making a buck ... ok ... come on, someone prove me wrong:devil:

Chef
15th-June-2006, 05:21 PM
I don't think that it would be possible to prove Gus wrong because there are an abundance of examples that many of us know where a really poor product has been offered and the poor punter, having no other local (in dancing terms, 10 miles) choice, has to just put up with it.

There are some rare cases I have come across where an organiser keeps their finger on the national pulse and keeps upping their product even though there is no local competition but that is always the organisers that are primarily in it for the love of the dance rather than the money.

Independant organisers and Ceroc both keep the each other on their toes and the punter benefits. There are unfortunately some places in the country where the poor punter has no choice of provider and the provider can offer something really second rate and get away with it (or even third rate in the case of MoJive).

Spare a thought for those unfortunate people in the areas of the country where there is no choice or effective competition to keep driving the standards higher.

Wendy
15th-June-2006, 05:24 PM
IMHO complaining is a TOTAL waste of time ... as long as the punters keep on coming back. I could list several venues/freestyles in our area where the music and DJs get totaly slated and people leave well before the end of the night. Will the organisers change any of this? NO ... because the muppet punters keep on coming back for more of the same cr@p :rolleyes: . The only thing that motivates organisers is making a buck ... ok ... come on, someone prove me wrong:devil:

And talking of those great dancers I never got a dance with :whistle: :flower:

Nicely (well honestly and rather bluntly) put ! If organisers really wanted feedback surely they would ask for it. Whenever I have been for training I usually get a wee slip asking what I thought of the course. No sign of anything like that after workshops at weekenders. Pontins ask for feedback and we WILL mention the poor bar staff to them but since their commercial relationship is with the organisers (who have already booked more events) are THEY going to care ?

I am all for organisers making a buck but I can't go along with the walk-on-water opinion people can have of them when they could do better. As I have said in previous "moans" many MJ-ers would be happy to dance in a public toilet (that scene in Trainspotting comes to mind yeuch but the addict thread is another thread :rolleyes:). OK exaggerating again. I do think that most of us simply wouldn't put up with waiting 40 minutes for a baked potato anywhere else and yet we do put up with all sorts of "cr@p" when it comes to dance.

Wx

Twirly
15th-June-2006, 05:39 PM
I can't comment on the state of weekender venues having never been to one, but if it's really that bad, why not write a letter to the organisers, give your comments and suggest that they give out feedback forms (they could presumably do it by e-mail if paper and postage is an issue!). It might sound daft, but maybe they haven't thought of providing feedback forms? Just a suggestion... :nice:

Wendy
15th-June-2006, 05:48 PM
Good suggestion.

:flower:

Wx

jivecat
15th-June-2006, 07:52 PM
There are some wonderful comments on here, but there is a difference between having criticism of something and complaining about it, and there are constructive ways of doing both.



I'm not sure if I get these fine distinctions. As I see it, a complaint should be made to the organiser if the product is not provided as advertised and paid for. I'm not sure how constructive that can be on the part of the one who is doing the complaining - the organiser could deal with it constructively by addressing the complaint immediately and making changes in the future.

Whingeing - this is complaining by someone who isn't prepared to take any responsibility for themselves about something which can't be helped to people who have no responsibility for the situation, anyway. A whinger isn't expecting to be listened to, and happily, on such occasions, their expectations are totally fulfilled. Just for a change!

In between the two categories lies a mass of commentary - I'd prefer to call it discussion. It's highly subjective, often with no immediate practical solution, full of emotional responses, reflects a huge range of tastes, aimed at no particular audience, often contains thoughtful reflection, is about past events rather than future ones, conversational in tone. Most of what is said on the forum falls into this category, and,while it might not be to everyone's taste to read, (it's often very entertaining, especially for other people who've been to the same event) is potentially of huge interest to organisers, particularly at a time when competition amongst events is getting fiercer. It's good if people can provide creative suggestions for improvements (maybe the organisers would act on them) but I think they are entitled to say what they think or feel without having to suggest a solution or to have a specific agenda of change.

It's one way an organiser can get some sense of grassroots opinion - realistically, punters aren't going to be bothering event organisers with small niggles or specific comments on what particularly worked for them.

The issue of "complaining to the right person" could be solved instantly by the provision of feedback forms. I don't know why organisers don't provide them, they could learn so much and if they didn't like what they heard, they could bin them all.

Ultimately what Gus said is right - there is no motivation for organisers to change until profits start to fall.




.......

what I'm saying is that I agree whole-heartedly with alot of what has been said, but I believe that some people are confusing criticism with complaining. However, whichever you choose to do, it should always be constructive, or else its a waste of time and effort.

I think I've just spent the last hour working out that I don't actually agree with this. Duh!

DavidY
15th-June-2006, 09:24 PM
Do people who run such events really want feedback ? No sign of a customer care survey from the organisers - style "What could we do better ?" I remember seeing the feedback forms at Southport events in the past. And I've just found one from a past Scarborough event (also run by Jive Addiction) which I never got round to filling in. It says "Please take a couple of minutes of your time to tell us what we're doing right or how we could improve things." So pretty much as Wendy suggests.

I don't know why the feedback forms weren't at Southport this time - but I do wonder how many people bothered to fill them in at previous events when they were available...? :whistle:

DavidY
15th-June-2006, 09:45 PM
IMHO complaining is a TOTAL waste of time ... as long as the punters keep on coming back. I could list several venues/freestyles in our area where the music and DJs get totaly slated and people leave well before the end of the night. Will the organisers change any of this? NO ... because the muppet punters keep on coming back for more of the same cr@p :rolleyes: . The only thing that motivates organisers is making a buck ... ok ... come on, someone prove me wrong:devil: OK it's only a minor thing but I'll have a go...

In this post about Southport June 2005 (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=125932#post125932), Sparkles said:
I definitely agree though that the DJ schedule should be billed just as the teachers classes are – maybe John and Wes would be able to include that in the booklet next time (please!).In September 2005 there was a DJ schedule on ordinary paper (if I remember rightly), and by June 2006 there were big glossy posters around the place with the DJ schedules on. So, whether it came from the forum or elsewhere, that feedback was listened to and taken on board.:clap: :clap:

Wendy
15th-June-2006, 11:29 PM
Great ressult. Well done Jive Addiction and Sparkles :flower:

:clap: :cheers: :clap:

Wx

bigdjiver
16th-June-2006, 01:52 AM
The advantage of having constructive criticism on a forum is that it is there to educate everybody, those that may one day have the power to change things as well as those that already do. In public view it can also be shot at. I have put up some ideas here, which might have appealed to somebody, but they have been answered by people who have tried the idea, and found that it did not work. From the "why" of it not working further progress might be made.

TiggsTours
16th-June-2006, 10:20 AM
The issue of "complaining to the right person" could be solved instantly by the provision of feedback forms. I don't know why organisers don't provide them, they could learn so much and if they didn't like what they heard, they could bin them all.
Probably because its highly unlikely that anyone would ever fill them in, and it would be a waste of our much needed rainforests!

I think I've just spent the last hour working out that I don't actually agree with this. Duh!
Which bit? I said quite alot, of which some of your entry was in total agreement.

.........a complaint should be made to the organiser if the product is not provided as advertised and paid for.Constructive complaint
I'm not sure how constructive that can be on the part of the one who is doing the complaining - the organiser could deal with it constructively by addressing the complaint immediately and making changes in the future.If the organiser deals with it properly, then it will be very constructive. Constructive criticism is where the complainer leaves the complianee with an opportunity to improve.

WhingeingUnconstructive complaining
..........is complaining by someone who isn't prepared to take any responsibility for themselves about something which can't be helped to people who have no responsibility for the situation, anyway. A whinger isn't expecting to be listened to, and happily, on such occasions, their expectations are totally fulfilled. Just for a change!
Criticism is very different. It is possible to criticise something without complaining about it. If I tell an organiser that I feel the evening could be improved if there was a larger selection of music played to suit everybody's tastes, then I am offering constuctive criticism, it doesn't mean I'm complaining. It would be wrong to complain where a venue does not suit my personal taste, as I would be fully aware that it could be somebody elses dream night, in which case the organiser has done nothing wrong, they just haven't satisfied my needs, but by simply introducing some variation in music, they could cater to more needs, and therefore improve their own marketability.

Wendy
16th-June-2006, 11:16 AM
and therefore improve their own marketability.They don't need to ! Part of the problem at Southport IMO is the fact that there are TOO MANY people. I bet not everyone could dance at Southport at the same time. Think of those massive jam-packed workshops in the main hall. If they all stayed on the floor they would not have enough room to be able to do freestyle and not even everyone is doing those workshops :eek:

Luckily for the organisers people must work shifts. I probably will go back next year but only cos I no longer dance in the UK and it's a relatively easy place to get to from here. I'll not venture out till after midnight and then I'll probably have to miss the workshops the next day cos I'll be too knackered. Such is life.

Wx

TiggsTours
16th-June-2006, 01:57 PM
They don't need to ! Part of the problem at Southport IMO is the fact that there are TOO MANY people.
When did this turn into a discussion on Southport? I thought this was about criticism in general, not about a specific event.

Wendy
16th-June-2006, 03:30 PM
When did this turn into a discussion on Southport? I thought this was about criticism in general, not about a specific event. Threads just do that right ? :flower: :innocent:

The reason I have been harping on about Southport is because it is fresh in my mind. (The fact that I flew to Scotland and borrowed a car to drive 4 hours to get there and haven't danced regularly for almost a year possibly means that my disappointment about the event is still an open wound - and no organisers around seem to be offering me any nice aromatherapy cream to rub in)

The fact that I was finding it difficult to be critical about Southport in the aftermath thread was what brought me to this one. I have been critical/complained in the past about other events/customer care etc in older threads so no reason to bring these up here.

Throughout this thread I hope I have been general with regards to complaining/criticism. I have thrown in book titles and have even bared my soul a little. That's about as much as I can offer to a thread.

Generally it is an art to be critical about people/events/life in a constructive positive way and I have't quite mastered that art yet. Perhaps the wise words in this thread will educate me a little.

Were you being critical about the thread becoming a discussion about Southport ??? :wink: I can take it on the chin if you were.:waycool:

Wx

TiggsTours
16th-June-2006, 03:54 PM
Were you being critical about the thread becoming a discussion about Southport ??? :wink: I can take it on the chin if you were.:waycool:

Wx
Not at all, just wondering why my comments on criticism in general was being taken as directed at Southport, especially seeing as I didn't go, so couldn't possibly comment. I was lucky enough to go to Rock Bottoms last weekend instead, and had a blissfully wonderful weekend, in fact the only possible criticism is that it was too good! I like to have at least one hour during the day when there aren't any good classes on so I can break for lunch! And at least is the music or standard of dancing or space on the floor wasn't as fabulous as it was all weekend at any point, I might have got more sleep!

Wendy
16th-June-2006, 04:02 PM
Not at all, just wondering why my comments on criticism in general was being taken as directed at Southport, especially seeing as I didn't go, so couldn't possibly comment. Apologies I could have said "some organisers must become complacent and therefore don't need to improve their marketability.. like say Southport"

Wx