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WittyBird
6th-June-2006, 06:32 PM
The people cabaret was by far the best ive seen and to learn that in a few hours

God knows what it was like previously then :rolleyes:

stewart38
7th-June-2006, 01:59 PM
God knows what it was like previously then :rolleyes:

Given they have about 4hrs to prepare, glad to see you will do better next time :angry:

David Bailey
7th-June-2006, 04:34 PM
Given they have about 4hrs to prepare, glad to see you will do better next time :angry:
I'm sorry, but I didn't really enjoy the group thing either. They were clearly having fun, and :respect: to them for putting the effort into it, but it didn't do much for me.

Having said that, I'm not a big cabaret fan anyway, the only part I enjoyed was Robert and Deborah's second set - I only sat through it in anticipation of the AT cabaret (which never happened :tears: ).

I'm not quite sure why people do these big line-dance sequence-oriented performances. It's like the "Ecuador" routine at last year's MJC - that was 5 hours of classes :eek: for a 4-minute routine. Madness, it's all madness...

Rhythm King
7th-June-2006, 04:56 PM
I'm not quite sure why people do these big line-dance sequence-oriented performances. It's like the "Ecuador" routine at last year's MJC - that was 5 hours of classes :eek: for a 4-minute routine. Madness, it's all madness...
Well perhaps they could run a competition, with heats, to see who gets into the final routine. The audience could vote on it... :whistle:

David Bailey
7th-June-2006, 08:03 PM
Well perhaps they could run a competition, with heats, to see who gets into the final routine. The audience could vote on it... :whistle:
Look, don't even joke about that, OK? :sick:

I dunno - cabarets never do anything for me, maybe I'm just missing the Cabaret Appreciation Gene or something. To me, the hour it took between 11pm and midnight is prime dancing time.

(Caveat: :clap: to Wes and John for the organisation and to the performers for performing - don't mind me, I'm just a grumpy git.)

Aleks
7th-June-2006, 08:10 PM
To me, the hour it took between 11pm and midnight is prime dancing time.
Watching the cabaret wasn't obligatory. There was music playing in both the Latin and Blues rooms, with 4/5 couples in each...you could have joined them. When the fancy dress parade started I scarpered!

David Bailey
7th-June-2006, 08:25 PM
Watching the cabaret wasn't obligatory.
It was if you were sat in the front row, right behind Mr Selmon - I didn't want to be greeted for the rest of my weekend with "Oh, you're the one who walked out in the middle of XXX, aren't you?" :eek:


There was music playing in both the Latin and Blues rooms, with 4/5 couples in each...you could have joined them. When the fancy dress parade started I scarpered!
I was seduced under false pretences, lured by the promise of an AT cabaret :tears:


to be honest
and i will be brutily
i never danced once in the main room
Bit hotshotty, but then aren't we all. For what it's worth, neither did I - I tried once with Limpy Tink, but the music went all weird on us. Big rooms scare me.


and only just once in the latin quarter
WHAT!! :mad: Well, that's definitely Just Plain Wrong. I know, I said be nice to newbies, but come on...


On the other hand, all the more for me :)


I doubt there were many forumites that spent much time in the main room.
Uh-huh. Clique, clique, clique...

stewart38
7th-June-2006, 08:32 PM
It was if you were sat in the front row, right behind Mr Selmon - I didn't want to be greeted for the rest of my weekend with "Oh, you're the one who walked out in the middle of XXX, aren't you?" :eek:


I was seduced under false pretences, lured by the promise of an AT cabaret :tears:


Bit hotshotty, but then aren't we all. For what it's worth, neither did I - I tried once with Limpy Tink, but the music went all weird on us. Big rooms scare me.


WHAT!! :mad: Well, that's definitely Just Plain Wrong. I know, I said be nice to newbies, but come on...


On the other hand, all the more for me :)


Uh-huh. Clique, clique, clique...

Sounds like you had **** time at this weekender didnt like people and wanted to hide, maybe there not for you ? :sick:

David Bailey
7th-June-2006, 08:37 PM
Sounds like you had **** time at this weekender didnt like people and wanted to hide, maybe there not for you ? :sick:
Nah, I just like to whinge a lot :grin:

Graham
10th-June-2006, 11:51 AM
God knows what it was like previously then :rolleyes:
I'd just like to say that I was one of those who took part in the cabaret, and I think we all worked really hard in rehearsals - I was dripping in sweat and had aching muscles. I came off the floor on the Saturday night feeling really good about having got through the routine without any major gaffes (especially since I'd rarely got through it error-free in rehearsals), despite having had the added pressure of being in the front row. Now I can completely appreciate that it's not everyone's thing, and I'm quite sure from the routines I've watched before that it would have been far from perfect, but I think a comment which is effectively "you were rubbish" is a bit of a slap in the face. Getting 50 people even to clap in time, never mind dance a Charleston routine, is a much harder task than anyone realises who hasn't tried it. We had approximately 2.5 hours learning the routine then around an hour of run-throughs. As someone else has said - if you think it wasn't as good as it could have been, feel free to do better.

Like I said, it's not everyone's thing, but that's completely different from criticising the quality of the performance.

ducasi
10th-June-2006, 01:41 PM
Graham, having been part of a cabaret routine, I thought N&N's team did amazingly well. It was for me, the best part of the cabaret session. Well done!

David Bailey
10th-June-2006, 04:21 PM
Graham, having been part of a cabaret routine, I thought N&N's team did amazingly well. It was for me, the best part of the cabaret session. Well done!
Well, as I said, it didn't do much for me - but, as I also said :respect: to the teachers and organisers for their hard work.

Having said that - if you don't like criticism, then don't do cabarets or competitions, criticism surely comes with the territory for these things.

WittyBird
10th-June-2006, 04:34 PM
Having said that - if you don't like criticism, then don't do cabarets or competitions, criticism surely comes with the territory for these things.

:yeah: To me it looked messy, nobody was smiling. I appreciate that it took peoples time to do, but if somethings worth doing surely its worth doing well?

Dance Demon
10th-June-2006, 05:07 PM
Having said that - if you don't like criticism, then don't do cabarets or competitions, criticism surely comes with the territory for these things.

Erm...I think this was done as a bit of fun, and not as a "serious" cabaret performance. FWIW, I think they all did very well considering the short time it took to put together. I don't think being a good sport and joining in for something that is purely for fun & entertainment, merits serious criticism a la Arlene Phillips........ It wasn't a brilliant polished performance, it was what it was meant to be...a bit of fun, which the majority of people enjoyed. mission accomplished I would say:)

Yliander
10th-June-2006, 05:12 PM
Erm...I think this was done as a bit of fun, and not as a "serious" cabaret performance. FWIW, I think they all did very well considering the short time it took to put together. I don't think being a good sport and joining in for something that is purely for fun & entertainment, merits serious criticism a la Arlene Phillips........ It wasn't a brilliant polished performance, it was what it was meant to be...a bit of fun, which the majority of people enjoyed. mission accomplished I would say:):yeah: :yeah:

having donce this once myself I have the utmost respect for those that part took in the charleston @ Southport - as while it is done fun - there is always a element of nerves/fear that you are going ot stuff and fall on your butt.

IMHO those thats that are reviewing it as if it was a serious Cabaret are missing the point and being just plain mean.

WittyBird
10th-June-2006, 05:17 PM
IMHO those thats that are reviewing it as if it was a serious Cabaret are missing the point and being just plain mean.

Not at all. I think it takes guts to get up there and do it, Im not taking that away from anyone I just think it could've been put together properly instead of thrown together.

Lory
10th-June-2006, 06:28 PM
The thing is, Nigel and Nina can't exactly audition people for it, so they have to work with what talent they've been dealt :eek:

From where I was standing, (face on) I could only see N&N and the front row and they we all smiling and giving it their best :clap: even though one chap was very out of sync (no, it wasn't you Graham:wink: ) that just added to the fun for me! :rofl:

I remember all to well, helping to choreograph a school show (never again:sick: ) and believe me, whatever big idea's I had to start with, soon felt apart :tears: .. I'd spent ages dreaming up idea's based on my own kids abilities but I no had idea how many kids (which I HAD to include) couldn't even hop on one leg! :what:

skippy
10th-June-2006, 07:59 PM
As part of the cabaret and on the front row I know I smiled and so did many others as proof just see the photos!!!!!:D
If you can't say nice things then don't say anything. The routine was fun and bloody hard work...:respect:
We all took part to have fun and learn some new moves, I know that myself and the rest of the team did and if you don't like watching them then don't!!!!:devil:
I personal would like to thank Nigel and Nina for getting us through it.
xxxxx

WittyBird
10th-June-2006, 10:11 PM
If you can't say nice things then don't say anything.

It's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

Graham
11th-June-2006, 10:33 AM
Of course you are. I was merely informing you of the impact of posting it. We don't often see on this forum comments such as "I had a crap dance with X", and I can't believe it's because nobody has formed such an opinion. Of course it wasn't polished - I have participated in and helped choreograph routines for competitions, and it takes many hours of work to get anything approaching polished, even with 10 people, never mind 50. So all I was pointing out was that, in my opinion, any valid comparison should really be with a group who has had the same amount of time to prepare.

David Bailey
11th-June-2006, 02:05 PM
If you can't say nice things then don't say anything.
Christ, I'd have to stop posting (again) if I followed that rule... :eek:


I have participated in and helped choreograph routines for competitions, and it takes many hours of work to get anything approaching polished, even with 10 people, never mind 50. So all I was pointing out was that, in my opinion, any valid comparison should really be with a group who has had the same amount of time to prepare.
Surely the only valid comparison is with the other displays on the cabaret? Or is this a handicap-based competition? :devil:

stewart38
11th-June-2006, 03:55 PM
Of course you are. I was merely informing you of the impact of posting it. We don't often see on this forum comments such as "I had a crap dance with X", and I can't believe it's because nobody has formed such an opinion. Of course it wasn't polished - I have participated in and helped choreograph routines for competitions, and it takes many hours of work to get anything approaching polished, even with 10 people, never mind 50. So all I was pointing out was that, in my opinion, any valid comparison should really be with a group who has had the same amount of time to prepare.


It was by far the best caberet done by the plebs and i should know ive done a few at Camber :yeah:

Dance Demon
11th-June-2006, 04:31 PM
Christ, I'd have to stop posting (again) if I followed that rule... :ee:whistle: :whistle: :wink:

Lory
11th-June-2006, 04:52 PM
It was by far the best caberet done by the plebs and i should know ive done a few at Camber :yeah:
That's what I love about you Stewart,, you have such a delicate way with words! :D

David Bailey
11th-June-2006, 05:26 PM
:whistle: :whistle: :wink:
Yes, I left that straight line there deliberately for someone to pick up...

Of course, the bad news is that almost every other regular poster would have to stop too, which could leave the forum slightly less interesting.

But, seeing as this thread is getting way too luvvy, and as I'm never one to know when to shut up, let's talk about this big group cabaret thing. My impression was that the people doing the cabaret got more out of it than the people watching it. Which seems unbalanced to me. If I'm going to rest my weary bones on the floor and pass up on an hour of dancing (on the Sat night, no less), it'd better be for something damn good. Which, frankly, this to me wasn't.

(Yes, I know the counter-argument, and yes, I normally don't watch cabarets - but I was waiting for the AT cabaret which never happened grrr...)

Although having said that, I wasn't massively interested in any session - the only one I liked was the second WCS set, the others I could easily have avoided. Yes, even the Anton / Erin ones.

So, do we need cabarets at weekenders? Or should they be binned?

(I was reminded last night that, thank God, the flippin' "Madison Time" thing wasn't played, so progress is possible :) )

Graham
11th-June-2006, 05:30 PM
Surely the only valid comparison is with the other displays on the cabaret? Or is this a handicap-based competition? :devil:
Let me be the first to admit that I am indeed rubbish compared to Robert Cordoba, Anton du Beke and Nigel Anderson, practice or no practice. :rolleyes:

David Bailey
11th-June-2006, 05:40 PM
Let me be the first to admit that I am indeed rubbish compared to Robert Cordoba, Anton du Beke and Nigel Anderson, practice or no practice. :rolleyes:
Yep, me too.

But I'd never expect 1,000 people to sit and watch me dance... :whistle:

Wendy
11th-June-2006, 06:03 PM
But I'd never expect 1,000 people to sit and watch me dance... :whistle:

I suppose I think of the dance community (especially at a weekender) as being a safe place.. an extended family almost. For me, it's like when you are wee and in a school play or concert and grannies and mums and dads come along to watch. They are there to support their loved ones and are not disappointed when they don't reach the level of Top of the Pops or that of Strictly Dance Fever.

I think criticising such an activity is pretty mean. They were just giving it a go, doing their best and taking the risk of looking less than perfect in public. If you are not a cabaret person then fair enough - just give it a miss. I think the whole thing lasted an hour out of a pretty dance-packed weekend.

:clap: :clap: :clap: to all the cabarets.... there must be a clever quote somewhere about it being easier to criticise from the sidelines than it is to join in ???

Wx

WittyBird
11th-June-2006, 06:44 PM
I think criticising such an activity is pretty mean.

Nah I don't think so. If you're prepared to get up and have a go then you should be prepared to take criticism.

I won't take it away from people who did do it, but sorry it was Sh1te. Like I have said before it's my opinion. If you go and see a film that you don't like, what are you gonna do say 'ooooh it was good' just incase you upset someone, I not think so.

If you can't take the heat step out of the fire. :mad:

DavidB
11th-June-2006, 06:51 PM
if you don't like criticism, then don't do cabarets or competitions, criticism surely comes with the territory for these things.Similarly, if you criticise people, then you open yourself up for criticism.

Wendy
11th-June-2006, 07:02 PM
I just don't see the point of being critical. (and I'm not advocating the luvvy "I think you were great" thing either BTW) They weren't entering a competion. They weren't saying "look at us we think we are great". They were simply achieving something rather than not achieving something. I can only praise people for that and I don't choose to judge such efforts. Some of you choose to judge - I simply don't get that. Were you never in a Navity play - or maybe you were and your parents told you were cr*p and you're not quite over it ???

Wx

David Bailey
11th-June-2006, 09:24 PM
I think criticising such an activity is pretty mean. They were just giving it a go, doing their best and taking the risk of looking less than perfect in public. If you are not a cabaret person then fair enough - just give it a miss. I think the whole thing lasted an hour out of a pretty dance-packed weekend.

:clap: :clap: :clap: to all the cabarets.... there must be a clever quote somewhere about it being easier to criticise from the sidelines than it is to join in ???

Wx
I think you've just made it :)

I've said, several times, that I respect the effort and the courage of the performers.

Let me repeat that, because obviously it's got missed.

I respect the effort and the courage of the performers.

However, I'm (mildly) critical of the performance. It didn't work for me. Sorry, but there you go.

And I never said I wasn't a mean, lean, dancing machine. (OK, 1 out of 3 ain't bad.)


Similarly, if you criticise people, then you open yourself up for criticism.
?? How's that work then? Criticised for being critical? Can I criticise my critics for criticising my criticism? And can they then criticise my critique of their criticism of my criticisms? Or not? Where does this madness stop? :eek:

(Ahh, it reminds me of "Yes Minister", those were the days, we had real sitcoms when I were a lad you know...)

Seriously, if it's OK to praise, surely it's OK to say (as I did) "It didn't work for me", especially if it's combined with (as it was) "But much respect to the effort and guts of the people involved for their hard work".

Otherwise, we just descend into an orgy of self-congratulations and "weren't you great darling", "yes, and you were wonderful too darling", "No, you were truly wonderful", "No, you..." - I'm sure you get the picture. And, God knows, there's enough of that stuff on this forum as it is already.

To me, it's simple - if you go public, in a competition, cabaret or whatever, then commentary is justifiable, both positive and negative. I would make a comment about heat, kitchen, etc., but WB's already done that.


I just don't see the point of being critical. (and I'm not advocating the luvvy "I think you were great" thing either BTW) They weren't entering a competion. They weren't saying "look at us we think we are great". They were simply achieving something rather than not achieving something. I can only praise people for that and I don't choose to judge such efforts. Some of you choose to judge - I simply don't get that. Were you never in a Navity play - or maybe you were and your parents told you were cr*p and you're not quite over it ???
Oh god, the memories... being a tree... I coulda been a contender :tears:

DavidB
11th-June-2006, 09:54 PM
?? How's that work then? Criticised for being critical? Can I criticise my critics for criticising my criticism? And can they then criticise my critique of their criticism of my criticisms? Or not? Where does this madness stop? No - criticised about their dancing.

There are too many crap dancers on this forum who are quick to give their views on others. They would be far better looking at their own dancing than being rude about people way better than they are.

Wendy
11th-June-2006, 10:03 PM
There are too many crap dancers on this forum who are quick to give their views on others. They would be far better looking at their own dancing than being rude about people way better than they are.

:worthy: Just HAD to quote that !!! lol :clap: :clap: :clap:

Wx

David Bailey
11th-June-2006, 10:08 PM
No - criticised about their dancing.

There are too many crap dancers on this forum who are quick to give their views on others. They would be far better looking at their own dancing than being rude about people way better than they are.
If I said publically anything negative about any social dancer's ability, I'd completely deserve to be comprehensively slated for it. Hell, I'd probably join in :)

And if you think "It didn't work for me" is rude, you should read my comments about astrologers :devil:

But in my view, if you do public dance things, you're in the public eye, and commentary is justified. Perhaps that view is wrong, but it has the virtue of consistency and simplicity.

Also, if the only commentary people ever get is of the form "You were great", and everyone else says nothing, then how can they know what everyone really thought? How can they improve? How can they respond, if any criticism, no matter how mild, is disallowed - therefore leading to private bitchiness and public smiles?

So, to be clear, do people think:
- you should never criticise any public performance?
- you should never criticise any "non-professional" performance?
- you can criticise competitions but not cabarets?
- you can criticise cabarets but not competitions?
- you can criticise anyone in a public performance?

(I know, this should be a separate thread - I'm lazy and tired, OK?)

Graham
11th-June-2006, 10:19 PM
However, I'm (mildly) critical of the performance. It didn't work for me. Sorry, but there you go.
David, as I said earlier, I completely understand that it's not your thing. Your point about whether this type of event adds to the evening or not is perfectly valid and I am happy for us to debate that. My argument would be that it's not compulsory, that dancing continues in the two other rooms, and that personally I wouldn't bother turning up that early on the Saturday night if it wasn't for the cabaret. However I think it's a valid question and I take no offence.

The point that I've been trying to make is not so much an argument against your legitimate criticism, as against the argument you and others have put forward that anyone who takes part obviously has such a big ego that they should be prepared to take criticism. Every time these things are done there are people who say they're interested in the challenge of learning the routine but don't want to take part in the performance. Each time the teachers encourage them to take part - "It's only a bit of fun, you'll be fine". The emphasis made by those organising the routine is always on the participation and fun aspect rather than trying to get a routine to the level of a competition-winning showcase. I have watched these performances before and I could have thought "How out of sync"/"Why are none of them smiling?"/"Doesn't he have any clue about the routine?", but instead I thought "My God, that's amazing that they've managed to do something like that in just a couple of hours". My objection is not to being criticised - I am big enough to take it - it's about people judging an event on criteria it was never intended to address.

Wendy
11th-June-2006, 10:26 PM
If I said publically anything negative about any social dancer's ability, I'd completely deserve to be comprehensively slated for it. Hell, I'd probably join in :) ?)

Think you were saying that about the efforts of 50 or so dancers ????

1000 or so people in the audience weren't being forced to clap. And, IMO they were clapping to reward the effort and the bravery of those performing NOT cos of the standard of the performance. And I wonder how many of us would attempt to do ANYTHING if they thought it was all about reaching a certain standard :eek:

And I don't do the "you were great thing" unless I mean it. I didn't say it was great just that I think they deserve a huge :clap: for doing it.


(I know, this should be a separate thread - I'm lazy and tired, OK?) kick kick not good enough !!!!! This is a public forum !!!
JK

Wx

DavidB
11th-June-2006, 10:30 PM
But in my view, if you do public dance things, you're in the public eye, and commentary is justified. Criticism on this forum is public. With 2000+ members it is more public than any Modern Jive performance.

David Bailey
11th-June-2006, 10:32 PM
David, as I said earlier, I completely understand that it's not your thing. Your point about whether this type of event adds to the evening or not is perfectly valid and I am happy for us to debate that. My argument would be that it's not compulsory, that dancing continues in the two other rooms, and that personally I wouldn't bother turning up that early on the Saturday night if it wasn't for the cabaret. However I think it's a valid question and I take no offence.
It's far too hot for you to be so reasonable and mature :rolleyes:

I guess I'm still grumpy about the no-AT cabaret thing. Oh, did I mention there was no flippin' AT cabaret? (think Gabriel Byrne in "The Usual Suspects" making a comment about the lack of cocaine on the boat and you're there...) :innocent:


The point that I've been trying to make is not so much an argument against your legitimate criticism, as against the argument you and others have put forward that anyone who takes part obviously has such a big ego that they should be prepared to take criticism. Every time these things are done there are people who say they're interested in the challenge of learning the routine but don't want to take part in the performance. Each time the teachers encourage them to take part - "It's only a bit of fun, you'll be fine". The emphasis made by those organising the routine is always on the participation and fun aspect rather than trying to get a routine to the level of a competition-winning showcase. I have watched these performances before and I could have thought "How out of sync"/"Why are none of them smiling?"/"Doesn't he have any clue about the routine?", but instead I thought "My God, that's amazing that they've managed to do something like that in just a couple of hours". My objection is not to being criticised - I am big enough to take it - it's about people judging an event on criteria it was never intended to address.
I don't really think that every participant had a big ego, and I'm sorry if I ever gave that impression - I thought I'd been quite nice to the participants. Several times, in bold at that...

But yes, I think the question of "amateur cabarets" is worth debating - what criteria should we use to judge and discuss them? Should they be classed as different, and separated from, the "professional cabarets"?

My simple view was "I'm sitting here, people are performing in front of me, this is what I think of them". Perhaps I'm too simple. And I notice no-one, not one person, has taken up with my critiques of the other performances.

I know, I know - I should simply dance elsewhere when the cabarets are on. Bloody AT performers, they're such prima donnas :mad:

David Bailey
11th-June-2006, 10:38 PM
Think you were saying that about the efforts of 50 or so dancers ????
Hey, if you're gonna insult people, do it in a job lot, that's my motto.

To repeat, I made two points:

the performance didn't work for me
but I respect the courage and efforts of the performers.


Why is that mean and evil? What am I doing wrong here? :confused:

Wendy
11th-June-2006, 10:42 PM
I should simply dance elsewhere when the cabarets are on. Now that wasn' t so hard was it :flower:

And just thought I'd say publicly that DJ comes second only to WittyBird in the rep rankings and that must mean something...

Wx

Wendy
11th-June-2006, 10:47 PM
Hey, if you're gonna insult people, do it in a job lot, that's my motto.

To repeat, I made two points:

the performance didn't work for me
but I respect the courage and efforts of the performers.


Why is that mean and evil? What am I doing wrong here? :confused:grr .. now you are making me laugh which means I can't fight so hard... :hug: .. ahem... grrrrrr...

Wx

David Bailey
11th-June-2006, 10:54 PM
grr .. now you are making me laugh which means I can't fight so hard... :hug: .. ahem... grrrrrr...
My cunning plan. It always works :na:

Wendy
11th-June-2006, 11:03 PM
My cunning plan. It always works :na: Win the battle....

Wx

WittyBird
11th-June-2006, 11:08 PM
And just thought I'd say publicly that DJ comes second only to WittyBird

:rofl: I really am biting my tongue :D

Dance Demon
11th-June-2006, 11:10 PM
:rofl: I really am biting my tongue :D

as long as it's just your tongue:wink:

fletch
11th-June-2006, 11:24 PM
And just thought I'd say publicly that DJ comes second only to WittyBird in the rep rankings and that must mean something...

Wx


ooooer! :rofl:

Magic Hans
12th-June-2006, 09:42 AM
... let's talk about this big group cabaret thing. My impression was that the people doing the cabaret got more out of it than the people watching it. Which seems unbalanced to me. If I'm going to rest my weary bones on the floor and pass up on an hour of dancing (on the Sat night, no less), it'd better be for something damn good. Which, frankly, this to me wasn't.

....

So, do we need cabarets at weekenders? Or should they be binned?

...


I wouldn't disagree with any of this .... however, what is the aim of the 'learn a cabaret routine in 3 (or so) hours' thing all about?

Creating a polished routine? Clearly impossible.
Create a watchable display? Well .... yes and no (IMO)
Show what can be achieved in such a short time? This one's my vote.
How about, giving people a little taster of performing in a fairly safe environment.

And so, how can a performance that clearly doesn't have the time to become polished? Clearly not on the performance, but only by those watching having some sort of personal connection to the performers, ie they might know one or two.

This can work quite well with fewer people on a weekend, as the dance community can build to a far greater extent. On larger weekends, there will still be hundreds of people who have never yet met on the dance floor or otherwise.

Hence I think that this idea has worked better in the past, and probably won't work so well in the future, especially at popular venues such as Southport.

!an

~ Message Ends ~

Wendy
12th-June-2006, 10:05 AM
Wise words Magic Hans.

This begs the question : Is there an ideal number for weekenders ?

I feel I danced with more people I didn't know at the first Southport than this one. And at Beach Boogie I think I danced with everyone (including the teachers).

Could big weekenders become less friendly as people form groups (aka cliques) to "survive" ?

Wx

David Bailey
12th-June-2006, 12:15 PM
I wouldn't disagree with any of this .... however, what is the aim of the 'learn a cabaret routine in 3 (or so) hours' thing all about?
God knows; I've never had the slightest urge to do any, it's too much like sequence dancing to me. But there is (was?) a spike in interest in this sort of stuff, team cabarets and routines seem to be very popular in Australia.

So, arguing the point, I guess these types of class teach things like:

team discipline and cameraderie
how musical interpretation can be done
the benefits of practice
introduction to creating a routine


So I guess they're of benefit to people who, for example, are thinking of going down the competition route.

Paul F
12th-June-2006, 12:18 PM
God knows; I've never had the slightest urge to do any, it's too much like sequence dancing to me.

I'll have you know sequence dancing is very enjoyable :blush: Its not all little old ladies you know.

Well, ok, most of it is :rolleyes:

ducasi
12th-June-2006, 12:52 PM
So I guess they're of benefit to people who, for example, are thinking of going down the competition route. How about those just looking to have some fun? :)

Isn't that enough? :confused:

David Franklin
12th-June-2006, 12:53 PM
But there is (was?) a spike in interest in this sort of stuff, team cabarets and routines seem to be very popular in Australia.

~snip~

I guess they're of benefit to people who, for example, are thinking of going down the competition route.

Surely the only valid comparison is with the other displays on the cabaret? Or is this a handicap-based competition
My feeling is you completely misunderstand the difference between what you can do in 3 hours with a random group of punters and a team cabaret practiced over many weeks or months with a small group of selected dancers. It was never supposed to be a competition. I can accept you didn't enjoy the performance, but to complain it wasn't up to the standard of the professional couples seems a little unrealistic.


There are too many crap dancers on this forum who are quick to give their views on others. They would be far better looking at their own dancing than being rude about people way better than they are.
:yeah:

David Bailey
12th-June-2006, 01:01 PM
:yeah:
:confused:
Well, if you can point out where I've been rude to any of these performers, I'll do my best to negative rep myself :D

Perhaps I should start a "Are you a crap dancer?" thread... :devil:

robd
12th-June-2006, 01:03 PM
There are too many crap dancers on this forum who are quick to give their views on others. They would be far better looking at their own dancing than being rude about people way better than they are.

.....waits for ESG to ask DavidB to name and shame, to put up or shut up (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=239517&postcount=40)...................

Gus
12th-June-2006, 01:08 PM
There are too many crap dancers on this forum who are quick to give their views on others. They would be far better looking at their own dancing than being rude about people way better than they are.Hear Hear. I think its important to realise that with the possible exception of the top 1% oe so of MJ dancers, most of us a pretty poor to average dancers compared to other dance forms. We do it because we enjoy it. To see a group of people who in 3 hours or so have put together a passable routine ... AND ENJOYED IT is something worthy of celebration. If you dont want to watch it, fine ... but don't diss it.

My saddest experience of this forum is see opinions of rather poor dancers being taken as authoratative just because it appears in 'print'. It would be lovely to take some of these experts through a coaching session and allow them to see their own flaws. I see it time and time again even at our local clubs where the ones who make most noise are those who need to listen more. When was the last time your heard someone like DavidB, Viktor, Kate etc doing someone else down? Say less ... listen more.

Now going to shut my big gob and try to learn how to dance propely one of these days :blush:

David Franklin
12th-June-2006, 01:22 PM
Well, if you can point out where I've been rude to any of these performers, I'll do my best to negative rep myself :D Sorry, my agreement was a general comment, not directed at you. I should have made 2 posts.

Not wanting to be accused of weaselling; although I wouldn't say you were directly rude (others were), I think the "if you put yourself up there, you deserve to get criticism" attitude you show is wrong.

El Salsero Gringo
12th-June-2006, 01:29 PM
.....waits for ESG to ask DavidB to name and shame, to put up or shut up (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=239517&postcount=40)...................A dangerous strategy - it might be me he's talking about.

I've just spent a few minutes looking for the criticisms and insults directed at the cabaret, but failed to find any. Could someone post a link to the really juicy bits?
It would be lovely to take some of these experts through a coaching session and allow them to see their own flaws.You talking about Arlene Phillips here, too?

David Bailey
12th-June-2006, 02:02 PM
I've just spent a few minutes looking for the criticisms and insults directed at the cabaret, but failed to find any. Could someone post a link to the really juicy bits?
Nah, we hid them away, they were too juicy for the plebs to be allowed to see. But don't worry, we'll let you have a look once you become a Good Dancer. :na:

David "50% chance of being crap" James :eek:

(I'd also love to see the juicy insulting stuff, please let me know if you see any :flower: )


I think the "if you put yourself up there, you deserve to get criticism" attitude you show is wrong.
Possibly - and that's a reasonable debate to have, the criteria audiences should apply to these things. I tried to have this debate a few posts back, but no-one was interested... :tears:


My saddest experience of this forum is see opinions of rather poor dancers being taken as authoratative just because it appears in 'print'.
My saddest experience of this forum* is to see people being too scared to post their opinions about dancing, because they're worried they'll get jumped on. Anyone daring to express a non-luvvy opinion, no matter how mild or how balanced, seems to be castigated. So most people spend time talking about pets, singletons, limericks and other games, endless "What's on this weekend" posts, or just lurk.

* Am now so tempted to do a "What's your saddest experience of this forum?" thread... :)

David Franklin
12th-June-2006, 02:07 PM
(I'd also love to see the juicy insulting stuff, please let me know if you see any :flower: )You don't think

it was Sh1te
is insulting?

Chef
12th-June-2006, 02:15 PM
Performance classes.

I have taken part in a number of these performance classes and I thought that I would tell you what I, as a participant got out of them (since I have heard some of what the audience don’t get out of them).

So what do I think I learnt.

Learning new dance styles (lindy, blues, Charleston, latin styling, even Jango) that took me out of my Ceroc only comfort zone. In short – wider dance exposure.

They taught me that when the dance fits the music that it was much more interesting and fun for me. Performance classes were my first introduction to musicality.

I had to learn choreographic sequences and lock key events into places in the music like starts of bars, breaks and accent points. The routine was usually learnt as a sequence of moves for a verse and a different sequence for the chorus and that the intro and outro had their own sequences. As a result I started to be aware of these elements of structure within the music for the first time.

The very act of performing to an audience meant that I had to be aware of where I was in relation to the audience and my partner. Before then my dancing would just have all my moves going in more or less random directions with both myself and my partner chasing each other around the room. In doing performances I understood that the shape of the move was important both in the way that it would be presented to an audience and for making it easier for my partner and I to remain dancing together.

Performing in a large group meant that my partner and I had to stay on time with the music so our dance did not look out of place with the other participants and more importantly so we didn’t hit the other dancers. Performing in close proximity with other dancers in a performance just ups the ante to stay on time and in sequence. This made me have a greater attention to detail and a willingness to check, double check and keep working until it went from nearly right to just right.

The deadline of having to give a performance in front of my peers and not wanting to disgrace myself helped give me a focus that I enjoyed.

So that is what I got out of doing performance classes. It is just my own personal view. Sadly, from comments here on the forum, it seems that the observer gets a much lesser deal.

Although I know nearly nothing about dance I do feel that performance classes have helped me understand something and provided some insight into the things I have yet to learn.

David Bailey
12th-June-2006, 02:15 PM
Re: insults.

You don't think

it was Sh1te
is insulting?
Yeah, OK, fair cop. But if that's all... blimey, anyone reading this would think there was a torrent of personal abuse directed at every one of the performers, casting doubts on their ancestry, gender and for all I know shoe size.

The reaction seems, well, disproportionate.

El Salsero Gringo
12th-June-2006, 02:23 PM
Re: insults.

Yeah, OK, fair cop.Did you really say "sh1te"? Bad boy! That's a bit dismissive of the work that people put into it, even if you didn't like the results.

LMC
12th-June-2006, 02:28 PM
What he said ^^^ :yeah: - dismissive is exactly the word I would use.

To be fair to DJ, I believe that it was WB who said it was *****, sorry sh1ite.

I confess that I would rather have had more dancing time. But as I said in my original SP feedback post :respect: to those who took part - I would have been way too chicken.

David Franklin
12th-June-2006, 02:34 PM
blimey, anyone reading this would think there was a torrent of personal abuse directed at every one of the performers, casting doubts on their ancestry, gender and for all I know shoe size.

The reaction seems, well, disproportionate.Of course, the reason for the size of the reaction could simply be that a lot of people disagree with you.

As far as Gus and DavidB's comments go, I will tell you that many top level teachers and competitors have told me they've given up on the forum because of negative comments about perfomances (from people who have no idea what it's like). Now you have a perfect right to say "if they put themselves up there, they should accept the criticism", but historically, the result of that has been their absence from the forum. Personally, I think that's a shame.

WittyBird
12th-June-2006, 02:43 PM
To be fair to DJ, I believe that it was WB who said it was *****, sorry sh1ite.

.

Yep it was me that said it was 'sh1te'. I wasn't referring to any1 individual though, I was talking about the whole thing. I also said it took guts to get up there and do it.

I thought too many people took part and it looked messy, like I also said it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. It's not as though I said ' him in the black hat was the worst dancer I have ever seen in my life'.

I was talking about the choreography not the dancers, although I did say I didn't see anyone participating to be smiling.

I wasn't saying it to be nasty or mean, I thought people appreciated a bit of honesty.

Life would be boring if we all liked the same things. You can't please all the people all of the time, get over it.

stewart38
12th-June-2006, 02:47 PM
My saddest experience of this forum is see opinions of rather poor dancers being taken as authoratative just because it appears in 'print'. It would be lovely to take some of these experts through a coaching session and allow them to see their own flaws. I see it time and time again even at our local clubs where the ones who make most noise are those who need to listen more. When was the last time your heard someone like DavidB, Viktor, Kate etc doing someone else down? Say less ... listen more.

Now going to shut my big gob and try to learn how to dance propely one of these days :blush:

you got anyone in mind ?




I won't take it away from people who did do it, but sorry it was Sh1te.



I’ve done two of these before at Camber (where they seem to have stopped them) and I thought Southport was the best.

I also want to do the two large group dances which names I forget. Don’t get them now.:sad:

Chef
12th-June-2006, 03:00 PM
I was talking about the choreography not the dancers, although I did say I didn't see anyone participating to be smiling.


Believe me Witty - I am not about to have a go at you. The above did make me laugh out loud but only because I am only too aware to the near "rabbit in the headlights" feeling that you get when actually taking part in these things.

You have the moves (and in the Charleston almost all of the people had never done it before), in the right sequence (oh heck what comes next), in time with the music (I'm late, no, I'm early - slow down a little) and in the right place (no, I should be on the left of my partner right now).

If you can do all that AND smile then :respect: :respect: :respect:

You will need more than 3 hours to take a dance style you are not familiar with, learn the steps, sequence, timing and staging and get it to a point where you are so comfortable that you have enough presence of mind to actually smile as well.

On top of all that you have HUNDREDS of eyes looking at you who are all waiting for Anton and Erin and Robert and Deborah to do their stuff and you are thinking "why did I think this was a good idea".

Smile as well? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

El Salsero Gringo
12th-June-2006, 03:07 PM
Of course, the reason for the size of the reaction could simply be that a lot of people disagree with you.

As far as Gus and DavidB's comments go, I will tell you that many top level teachers and competitors have told me they've given up on the forum because of negative comments about perfomances (from people who have no idea what it's like). Now you have a perfect right to say "if they put themselves up there, they should accept the criticism", but historically, the result of that has been their absence from the forum.Well I think that is silly. If they're top-level, then what care they what others say? On the other hand, if the people on this forum (who were in the audience for these top level performances) didn't like what they saw then I'd say their opinion counts for the most - who else are they performing to?

Why should anyone have to "know what it's like" before they're allowed to say what they thought? Does one have to have been on stage for the RSC before commenting on a play? Or played for the Vienna Philharmonic before reporting on a concert?

stewart38
12th-June-2006, 03:07 PM
Believe me Witty - I am not about to have a go at you.




Best not as she will –ve rep you and there was me walking the streets looking for stamps today in this weather :tears:

David Franklin
12th-June-2006, 03:23 PM
Well I think that is silly. If they're top-level, then what care they what others say?Problem is, it doesn't really matter whether you think it's silly. Because it is one of the main reasons teachers give me for not getting involved in the forum.

CJ
12th-June-2006, 03:58 PM
If you can't take the heat step out of the fire. :mad:

I think, FWIW, they could stand the heat, hence they entered the kitchen.

I'm not sure thay asked, or deserved, to be set on fire.:grin:

El Salsero Gringo
12th-June-2006, 04:03 PM
Problem is, it doesn't really matter whether you think it's silly. Because it is one of the main reasons teachers give me for not getting involved in the forum.Ok, teachers, or performers? To be honest I've not noticed very much criticism of performance at all on the Forum - mostly it's congratulations and how much we all loved every second of it. And it's about performance that you wrote three or four posts ago.

It is indeed a pity that anyone is put off from posting merely out of the fear that their every word might not receive the universal acclaim they think it deserves. But wouldn't this Forum be an even poorer place if it were just somwhere that teachers and 'names' checked in once a week to have their bums wiped and powdered, and to pick up quotes to decorate their promotional websites?

CJ
12th-June-2006, 04:04 PM
The reaction seems, well, disproportionate.

50 people, 4 hrs each in workshop time. Adrenalin, nerves, energy, time spent preparing before hand outwith the workshops, openmindedness to try something new and be part of something bigger than the sum of the parts:

"sh1te"

disproprtionate reactions.... discuss.

Whitebeard
12th-June-2006, 04:19 PM
To be fair to DJ, I believe that it was WB who said it was *****, sorry sh1ite.



Not this WB.

David Franklin
12th-June-2006, 04:23 PM
Ok, teachers, or performers?Both - though pretty much all the teachers I'm thinking of perform as well.

To be honest I've not noticed very much criticism of performance at all on the Forum;I won't requote Wittybird so soon after the last time, but if you haven't noticed criticism of performance you haven't been paying attention.


It is indeed a pity that anyone is put off from posting merely out of the fear that their every word might not receive the universal acclaim they think it deserves. But wouldn't this Forum be an even poorer place if it were just somwhere that teachers and performers checked in once a week to have their bums wiped and powdered and to pick up quotes to decorate their promotional websites?Of course, that's not what I suggested, but you do like your strawmen, don't you? I note there is a big difference between not mollycoddling professionals and saying the routine they choreographed was "sh1te".

Given the numbers, this forum should be a really great place for discussing dance. In practice, I find there are many other website where I learn more. Even though they have fewer members, or are talking about a dance I don't do so much of what they say doesn't apply. And one factor is that they actually get lots of people who not only know what they're talking about, but have experience in teaching it. This forum doesn't. I have told you one reason why.

Dreadful Scathe
12th-June-2006, 04:52 PM
My saddest experience of this forum* is to see people being too scared to post their opinions about dancing, because they're worried they'll get jumped on.

Depends on whos doing the jumping and what they're wearing :)

er...anyway - I agree with everyone. I think some of the comments aimed at DJ are rather harsh - he clearly didnt like the cabaret. Ive not liked cabarets Ive been IN, never mind watched ;) (not yours Lindsay ;) the Cats one all fell apart at the end).

I think its okay to be critical of something at an event you paid for that didnt work for you. Its not as if DJ went on and on about it, its the rest of you who came along, painted legs on his criticism, gave it a false moustache and pointed it toward Fleet Street (without so much as a "by your leave").

I wouldnt be too quick to suggest that critical people should look at themselves and their own abilities first - that would put paid to the millions of armchair referees shouting 'that was NEVER a penalty' in the next few weeks...I may not know much about art but I know what I like etc...

theres a point in there somewhere....I promise to jump on anyone who finds it :)

WittyBird
12th-June-2006, 04:56 PM
I think its okay to be critical of something at an event you paid for that didnt work for you. Its not as if DJ went on and on about it, its the rest of you who came along, painted legs on his criticism, gave it a false moustache and pointed it toward Fleet Street (without so much as a "by your leave").


:yeah: Very well said :respect:

El Salsero Gringo
12th-June-2006, 05:19 PM
I won't requote Wittybird so soon after the last time, but if you haven't noticed criticism of performance you haven't been paying attention. Let me see if I've got this straight then: your argument goes that between 6:45 yesterday afternoon and earlier today - a coterie of advanced teachers and performers all called you up to say they were quaking in their boots at the thought of WB dropping a one-word comment about a workshop-cum-performance by amateurs and have suddenly decided to boycot this Forum on the strength of it?

Come off it. You're claiming that teachers and performers (now we're narrowing down to those that do both, I note) have come in for criticism of their performances in the past. I don't remember such criticisms. Please point them out to me.
Of course, that's not what I suggested, but you do like your strawmen, don't you? I note there is a big difference between not mollycoddling professionals and saying the routine they choreographed was "sh1te". I'd expect the professionals involved to be able to take a comment like "sh1te" a hell of a lot better than the amateur lesser dancers who were performing in it. The problem with saying it was "sh1te" is that it misses the point about what the performance was for. That's not up to the choreographers.
Given the numbers, this forum should be a really great place for discussing dance.Why should it? It should be for discussing what the people who are here want to discuss.
In practice, I find there are many other website where I learn more. Even though they have fewer members, or are talking about a dance I don't do so much of what they say doesn't apply. And one factor is that they actually get lots of people who not only know what they're talking about, but have experience in teaching it. This forum doesn't. I have told you one reason why.I speak for no-one but myself when I say I'm quite happy with this forum not being fullof postings not only of the good-and-great but of everyone else too - if it means it's a fun place to post where I can talk with the friends that I make going dancing. There's a place for rec.arts.dance - and that's not necessarily here.

David Franklin
12th-June-2006, 05:24 PM
Let me see if I've got this straight then: your argument goes that between 6:45 yesterday afternoon and earlier today - a coterie of advanced teachers and performers all called you up to say they were quaking in their boots at the thought of WB dropping a one-word comment about a workshop-cum-performance by amateurs and have suddenly decided to boycot this Forum on the strength of it? Second time in two posts you've put words in my mouth. Enough.

El Salsero Gringo
12th-June-2006, 05:27 PM
Second time in two posts you've put words in my mouth. Enough.No.

Point me out the previous criticisms of performances that you/they claim are keeping performing teachers away from the forum, please. You/they may well be right to feel that way, but I want to judge for myself.

If you can't tell me which posts you're talking about, then ... what are you talking about?

David Bailey
12th-June-2006, 05:30 PM
I think its okay to be critical of something at an event you paid for that didnt work for you. Its not as if DJ went on and on about it, its the rest of you who came along, painted legs on his criticism, gave it a false moustache and pointed it toward Fleet Street (without so much as a "by your leave").
:rofl:

I have realised one thing about myself, though, with this and other contentious issues - and that is that I never shut up when I should.

So things which were originally quite minor points, and which would die down and be forgotten, get blown up out of all proportion, partly because I vehemently and vigorously defend them. When I should just let it go. So, please let me now apologise for being a loudmouth and contributing to the heat. :blush:

OK, confession time over, normal service is now resumed.

In an attempt to add something vaguely positive: Would it be more relevant for cabarets to be split up and attached to relevant classes? So, for example, Anton and Erin could have done a demo at the end of the cha-cha class? I know, we wouldn't have seen the dresses and stuff - but it could maybe have been more relevant and more inspirational to see what can be done with the dance style that's just been taught?

Wendy
12th-June-2006, 06:07 PM
I have realised one thing about myself, though, with this and other contentious issues - and that is that I never shut up when I should.

So things which were originally quite minor points, and which would die down and be forgotten, get blown up out of all proportion, partly because I vehemently and vigorously defend them. When I should just let it go. So, please let me now apologise for being a loudmouth and contributing to the heat. :blush: Lamb !!! :hug: The world wouldn't be the same without us bro...

Wxxx

Minnie M
12th-June-2006, 08:16 PM
From the latest Ceroc London emai:-


15 - 23 JUL Big Dance
Big Dance is a national week long event which will provide Dance Taster sessions and Demonstrations all over the U.K culminating in a televised Mass Dance Choreography in Trafalgar Square on Saturday 22nd July.
I am pleased to announce that Emma Pettitt and her team will be participating in the Mass Choreography on behalf of Ceroc, and this is also a world record attempt.

bigdjiver
12th-June-2006, 08:46 PM
A bit late to the fray, but ...
I have seen top class Lindy, Breakdancing, Geisha dancing, Ballroom and more all done by dancers far beyond my limitations, and they have left me uninspired and even bored, because I have seen it all before. If someone asks me for my reaction, I will call it as I see it. I can acknowledge the craft and work that went into the displays, but as performances they did not work for me. I may not dance so good, but I can see and remember well enough to give an opinion. The dance ability of the critic can be irrevelant.

David Bailey
12th-June-2006, 08:58 PM
From the latest Ceroc London emai:-
:eek: and double :eek:

Wendy
12th-June-2006, 09:08 PM
I think, FWIW, they could stand the heat, hence they entered the kitchen.
I'm not sure thay asked, or deserved, to be set on fire.

:yeah:

And let's start on the costumes. Wonder if anyone would say some or all of them were "sh1te" ???.. doubt it...and some could argue that that's not even dancing; It was a bit of fun.. some took part some didn't and we all clapped at the end. Well maybe not all of us :sick:


50 people, 4 hrs each in workshop time. Adrenalin, nerves, energy, time spent preparing before hand outwith the workshops, openmindedness to try something new and be part of something bigger than the sum of the parts:


Just wanted to quote that bit :flower:

Wx

MartinHarper
12th-June-2006, 09:15 PM
Chef and others gave what I think are the biggest reasons for this kind of amateur cabaret - it's a decent tool for learning a few things. The actual performance is part of the learning, so it can't really be skipped without losing some of the class value.

I guess things could be announced better. For example, it might be good to tell people that dancing is continuing in the other room(s) - that's not always been clear to me. I also like the Rock Bottoms thing of splitting up the Teacher's Cabaret (Sat) from the less finely honed stuff (Sun). I think this makes things easier on the unhoned performers too.

I don't have a problem with folks criticising any such cabaret-things I've taken part in, though I prefer that they're moderately kind and moderately constructive. "sxxte" (or however we spell it) isn't helpful. "smile more" might be.

Petal
12th-June-2006, 10:39 PM
:yeah: :yeah:

having donce this once myself I have the utmost respect for those that part took in the charleston @ Southport - as while it is done fun - there is always a element of nerves/fear that you are going ot stuff and fall on your butt.

IMHO those thats that are reviewing it as if it was a serious Cabaret are missing the point and being just plain mean.


:yeah:

Petal
12th-June-2006, 10:45 PM
No - criticised about their dancing.

There are too many crap dancers on this forum who are quick to give their views on others. They would be far better looking at their own dancing than being rude about people way better than they are.


Well said.:clap:

Petal
12th-June-2006, 10:53 PM
50 people, 4 hrs each in workshop time. Adrenalin, nerves, energy, time spent preparing before hand outwith the workshops, openmindedness to try something new and be part of something bigger than the sum of the parts:

"sh1te"

disproprtionate reactions.... discuss.


It was less than 2 hours in reality, 11/2 class and almost 1/2 hour practice shortly before the "cabaret".:(

stewart38
13th-June-2006, 10:18 AM
The dance ability of the critic can be irrelevant.

Might be true in football if my team play shixte im happy to tell them through the Television

But dancing ?




I don't have a problem with folks criticising any such cabaret-things I've taken part in, though I prefer that they're moderately kind and moderately constructive. "sxxte" (or however we spell it) isn't helpful. "smile more" might be.

On this basis most people who tell me to smile more are really implying im shixte :sad:

ElaineB
13th-June-2006, 12:24 PM
Speaking as a competitor and having thrown ourselves on the mercy of all, I have also taken part in 'Amateur' caberets, some for workshops and some for birthday parties. I am glad to say that our attempts have usually been met with good hearted applause and spirit. Everyone would know that it was just a bit of fun and take it that way.

I have noticed that due to SDF and SCD and more dance professionals entering the MJ world, that our expectations of the level of dance caberets appears to have risen. I say this because of the feedback from friends who are now able to see the professionals in action and who will compare their demo's. What hope then for the average MJ'er to put on a performance in front of a punter who is now quite used to seeing the very, very best?

Elaine

Heather
13th-June-2006, 11:44 PM
No - criticised about their dancing.

There are too many crap dancers on this forum who are quick to give their views on others. They would be far better looking at their own dancing than being rude about people way better than they are.


:yeah: :yeah:

I couldn't have put it better myself!!!!

Weel said David !!!
:hug:
Heather

David Bailey
14th-June-2006, 09:41 AM
I have noticed that due to SDF and SCD and more dance professionals entering the MJ world, that our expectations of the level of dance caberets appears to have risen. I say this because of the feedback from friends who are now able to see the professionals in action and who will compare their demo's. What hope then for the average MJ'er to put on a performance in front of a punter who is now quite used to seeing the very, very best?
Maybe split into "Pro / Am" categories?

David Franklin
14th-June-2006, 10:14 AM
Maybe split into "Pro / Am" categories?What's the point? Surely no-one could confuse an act made up of random dancers at a weekender who have only had a couple of hours to learn their routine with a professional cabaret? :devil:

Dreadful Scathe
14th-June-2006, 12:53 PM
What's the point? Surely no-one could confuse an act made up of random dancers at a weekender who have only had a couple of hours to learn their routine with a professional cabaret? :devil:
Yes, a cabaret with 6 months practice could still suck that badly :)

LilyB
14th-June-2006, 11:52 PM
Yes, a cabaret with 6 months practice could still suck that badly :)
Yeah, yeah, I know - give us another 6 months and it might be up to scratch by then.:rofl:

Yogi_Bear
15th-June-2006, 09:24 PM
:yeah:
The cabaret at Southport a couple of weeks ago really consisted of two cabarets, an amateur and a professional. The amateur cabaret necessarily suffered (not just by being part of the same billing) by comparison with the exceptionally high standard of the professional one, though to me - sitting in the middle near the front - it looked pretty good.

I have taken part in three or four of Nigel and Nina's cabarets. In none of these did my partner and I dance a faultless routine. It would have been surprising if we had. But for us ordinary mortals it offers the rare opportunity to be in the spotlight and get the hint of the buzz of competitive dance and choregraphed sequences. In each case it was one of the highights of the weekend. If those taking part get more out of it than the spectators, well, they are entitled to get a kick out of taking part. Just don't expect them to dance like Robert Cordoba or Erin Boag.......:nice:

ElaineB
15th-June-2006, 10:03 PM
The cabaret at Southport a couple of weeks ago really consisted of two cabarets, an amateur and a professional. The amateur cabaret necessarily suffered (not just by being part of the same billing) by comparison with the exceptionally high standard of the professional one, though to me - sitting in the middle near the front - it looked pretty good.

I have taken part in three or four of Nigel and Nina's cabarets. In none of these did my partner and I dance a faultless routine. It would have been surprising if we had. But for us ordinary mortals it offers the rare opportunity to be in the spotlight and get the hint of the buzz of competitive dance and choregraphed sequences. In each case it was one of the highights of the weekend. If those taking part get more out of it than the spectators, well, they are entitled to get a kick out of taking part. Just don't expect them to dance like Robert Cordoba or Erin Boag.......:nice:

Thinking on from this....who has played football for the sheer pleasure of it?

We have the 'Downs League' in Bristol, which is very lowly compared to professional football, let alone the World Cup players. But Saturday after Saturday young and old alike get out there and compete for the glory of their team winning the Downs league. No-one spectating would compare their performance to the professionals and perhaps we should just take that on board when watching our peers dancing. :flower:


Elaine

bigdjiver
16th-June-2006, 01:40 AM
I did not go to Southport, and do not know how the contentious cabaret was advertised. The prblem seems to me to be that of disappointment based on false expectations.

If I had just seen "Cabaret" advertised as an event like Southport I would be hoping for something like the standard of David and Lily or Emma Pettit. If I had seen it advertised a class cabaret my expectations would be zero - I might just attend to see how it turned out, but with a little hope for something special. Under very few circumstances would I think that any criticism of the participants was justified.

Was the nature of the cabaret properly advertised?

Petal
16th-June-2006, 09:27 AM
The cabaret at Southport a couple of weeks ago really consisted of two cabarets, an amateur and a professional. The amateur cabaret necessarily suffered (not just by being part of the same billing) by comparison with the exceptionally high standard of the professional one, though to me - sitting in the middle near the front - it looked pretty good.

I have taken part in three or four of Nigel and Nina's cabarets. In none of these did my partner and I dance a faultless routine. It would have been surprising if we had. But for us ordinary mortals it offers the rare opportunity to be in the spotlight and get the hint of the buzz of competitive dance and choregraphed sequences. In each case it was one of the highights of the weekend. If those taking part get more out of it than the spectators, well, they are entitled to get a kick out of taking part. Just don't expect them to dance like Robert Cordoba or Erin Boag.......:nice:

:yeah: (although i'll probably get another negative rep for using this smilie and not giving an individual opinion) ........like myself an ordinary mortal who did it for fun.:respect:

David Franklin
16th-June-2006, 09:54 AM
If I had just seen "Cabaret" advertised as an event like Southport I would be hoping for something like the standard of David and Lily or Emma Pettit. If I had seen it advertised a class cabaret my expectations would be zero - I might just attend to see how it turned out, but with a little hope for something special. Under very few circumstances would I think that any criticism of the participants was justified.Although I did not go to Southport, at every other weekender I've been to, the "Cabaret" has been composed of several performances. If there are "A-list" cabaret performers they will usually be advertised (e.g. David/Lily, Robert/Deborah, Anton/Erin), but there will usually be a few strong performances (usually by teachers), and more commonly than not a group cabaret by "normal punters" which will be a bit rough around the edges.

On that basis I don't see any need to advertise that one cabaret would be "non-professional". But in fact when a group routine is taught and performed during a weekender, that is usually made clear in the descriptions of the classes, so it should hardly have come as a surprise to anyone to see them perform in the cabaret.


I did not go to Southport, and do not know how the contentious cabaret was advertised. The prblem seems to me to be that of disappointment based on false expectations.




There seem to be a group of people who feel that if any part of a cabaret is not gobsmackingly awesome, then it's a waste of their precious freestyle time. I know dance is an obsession for some of us, but it seems a bit ridiculous if you can't handle missing an hour of freestyle over the course of a weekend. Given the cabarets are normally in the main room and finish by 11pm or so, I find it particularly hypocritical when so many of the people who complain are the people who also say "oh, I couldn't possibly start dancing at 9pm; the good dancing doesn't start until midnight" and "You'd never see me dancing in the main room with all the pleb music - I don't set foot outside the blues room".

If the entire cabaret was a disappointment I could understand, but people are complaining about one routine. I've never seen a professional stage show where I didn't think some bits dragged, but that doesn't ruin my evening.

LMC
16th-June-2006, 10:01 AM
:yeah: - sense of proportion :clap:

Professional cabarets can be awesome - but I know that I will *never* reach that standard. Seeing a group cabaret where the dancers are better than me, but obviously not professional actually gives me more to aspire to - because I can 'see' myself doing those moves/that routine rather than just sitting there with a dropped jaw wishing I'd started dancing 25 years ago.

DavidB
16th-June-2006, 10:31 AM
Everyone here has done a MJ class. I'm guessing virtually everyone here has had problems at some time during a class - either doing a move, or remembering what comes next. That is with 3 moves in 45 minutes.

To learn a routine from scratch in 2-3 hours, and then perform it in front of over 1000 dancers would tax most of the 'professional' cabaret performers. It takes me about a month to remember a 3 minute routine (and about 2.5 minutes to forget it...)

Personally I think these routines are the cabaret equivalent of DWAS competitions. You turn up, take part, have fun doing it, and entertain a lot of people along the way. There is one MC in the US who always says "Show your appreciation. Remember - they are out there, and you are not."

On a slightly different tack - do weekenders now have freestyle in the other rooms while the cabaret is on?

Graham
16th-June-2006, 11:31 AM
On a slightly different tack - do weekenders now have freestyle in the other rooms while the cabaret is on?
Yes, or at least Southport does.

Wendy
16th-June-2006, 01:35 PM
Everyone here has done a MJ class. I'm guessing virtually everyone here has had problems at some time during a class - either doing a move, or remembering what comes next. That is with 3 moves in 45 minutes.

To learn a routine from scratch in 2-3 hours, and then perform it in front of over 1000 dancers would tax most of the 'professional' cabaret performers. It takes me about a month to remember a 3 minute routine (and about 2.5 minutes to forget it...)

Personally I think these routines are the cabaret equivalent of DWAS competitions. You turn up, take part, have fun doing it, and entertain a lot of people along the way. There is one MC in the US who always says "Show your appreciation. Remember - they are out there, and you are not."

:clap: :clap: :clap: Hero.... sigh....

Wx