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Lynn
8th-June-2006, 10:58 AM
Been thinking about this with reference to personal experience and some comments on threads and PMs recently. Tango can be inspiring, uplifting and leave us feeling wonderful. Or we can feel frustated, upset or even angry (with ourselves). Its all part of the passion of the dance and its a good thing - even the lows are because we care.

We spend time in the Learning Tango thread talking about technical points and reviews of classes we have been to. I thought it might be good to have a space to vent our feelings, frustrations and those wonderful highs when we know its all worth it. I have found it so helpful to hear about others experiences, to get a glimpse of what I can aspire to, and also to know that I'm not the only one getting frustrated or upset.

Feel free to wax lyrical about wonderful experiences, or to get lost for words to describe how you feel - we will understand.

Feel free to rant, sob or despair - we will understand.

KatieR
8th-June-2006, 12:01 PM
I am at a point now where I can dance tango at Milongas and actually follow quite well.

it is such an amazing feeling to be able to dance a full set and not feel completely lost. it is such a satisfying feeling and is such an accomplishment for me.

I still have moments where i get angry with myself but I LOVE the fact that I can now dance Tango, Tango Vals, and Tango Milonga. Milonga I have to say is awesome fun!

Lynn
8th-June-2006, 12:31 PM
I am at a point now where I can dance tango at Milongas and actually follow quite well.

it is such an amazing feeling to be able to dance a full set and not feel completely lost. it is such a satisfying feeling and is such an accomplishment for me. I wish I was but I'm not there yet. I had a lovely gentle introduction at Southport dancing with MJers who could tango and who were very patient with my less than satisfactory following skills.

I'm planning on doing more practice, whenever, wherever, however, with whoever I can.

David Bailey
8th-June-2006, 12:42 PM
I am at a point now where I can dance tango at Milongas and actually follow quite well.
You can? Bloody hell, I'm officially impressed. :respect:

I certainly can't lead well - or for that matter, even competently. I firmly expect to be in the beginner camp for several years yet.

As for highs and lows - definitely, much more so than other dances. I've stormed out of 2 Milongas now, swearing never to do that stupid blasted dance ever again, and just knowing I'd never get it. The only things that keep me going are a combination of total stubborn bloody-mindedness, the knowledge that others have mastered it so I can too, and of course the support of the Forum and friends.

I know, I sound like a luvvy, but I have immense respect for anyone with the strength of character to go it alone. I certainly wouldn't have kept at it without the likes of Clive and CeeCee :worthy:

So why do it? Because, when it does occasionally come together, it's really really good. And you can feel it when something clicks - and it's a great feeling. And if you can dance AT to a high level, I very much doubt that you can be taught much about lead /follow / connection technique.

KatieR
8th-June-2006, 12:47 PM
You can? Bloody hell, I'm officially impressed. :respect:

I certainly can't lead well - or for that matter, even competently. I firmly expect to be in the beginner camp for several years yet.

.

:love:

Milonga is great fun, You really have just let go and follow. I imagine leading must be so much harder though. You dont have time to think in Milonga especially when it gets fast and keep your steps small. Dont try lots of fancy patterns, just stick with really simple steps, you will have it in no time. :D

Lynn
8th-June-2006, 12:54 PM
The only things that keep me going are a combination of total stubborn bloody-mindedness, the knowledge that others have mastered it so I can too, and of course the support of the Forum and friends.:yeah: For me these threads on the forum have been a lifeline. I haven't had anyone here in NI to really encourage me or even to talk about tango with and its been very frustrating. Being able to discuss things on these threads and wonderful supportive PMs from JonD and CeeCee have been very helpful. And knowing I'm not alone in these experiences. :flower:

I think that was why Southport was so good for me as I felt comfortable dancing with people who had shared on here and it gave me the courage to try to dance. And it gave me a glimpse of why -
So why do it? Because, when it does occasionally come together, it's really really good. And you can feel it when something clicks - and it's a great feeling.

My current frustration is mainly the lack of any opportunity to actually practice but the good experience at Southport and encouragement from you lot has given me the motivation to change that, somehow, and create the opportunities I need.

(I will probably end up even more frustrated at times during this process so don't be surprised to see me return for a virtual :hug: if I do.)

philsmove
8th-June-2006, 01:16 PM
...
I know, I sound like a luvvy, .
..
Not at all :respect: :cheers:

JonD
8th-June-2006, 01:29 PM
It is a bit of a roller-coaster isn't it! I felt really heavy and down as I walked back from the class on Tuesday; almost as if I'd failed at something. I felt really good about the lesson with Ivan at Southport and my dancing both at Southport (AT - my MJ was a bit stilted) and at South Zeal the week before. On Tuesday I got the chance to dance with a truly skilled follower and I suddenly realised how little I know and how poor many of my key skills are - it felt almost like those early milongas when I could do nothing and felt totally inadequate. During yesterday I had a chance to think about it a bit more and I started to feel inspired and challenged. Rather than feeling that dancing with Gisela had shown me how bad I am it became more like she'd opened a door to the things I need to work on. As a result I felt very positive and enthused. (Until, that is, I started to muck out my bathroom but the less said about that the better)!

It's great to be able to come home from dancing, sit down and tell you lot that I've been dancing like a constipated penguin or that I feel on top of the world. Somehow it gives AT more of a context and it also allows me to express my enthusiasm to fellow addicts rather than bore work colleagues, family or complete strangers!

Dancing milonga is fun! I don't have much vocabulary but I spend my time trying to make my partner laugh or playing a game to see if I can catch her out.

Lynn
8th-June-2006, 09:38 PM
Tango low.

Inspiration and motivation brought crashing down. Hope dwindling. Possibilities turning into slamming doors.

Perhaps my tango journey never really had a chance.

Clive Long
8th-June-2006, 10:41 PM
We are keen.

We are impatient.

We want to be good. We know we can be good.

We feel we are dancing in wellington boots with our shoe laces tied together.

So why do we persist?

Lynn
8th-June-2006, 10:59 PM
So why do we persist? Because...

We want to be good. We know we can be good.

(Or in my case, at least better...eventually...)

Lynn
9th-June-2006, 01:16 PM
Tango low.

Inspiration and motivation brought crashing down. Hope dwindling. Possibilities turning into slamming doors.

Perhaps my tango journey never really had a chance.
Tango support...

Encouragement of others lifts the gloom. Supportive words really do make a difference. I stumble and am lifted. I am not alone in my journey.

Thank you.

My journey has obstacles not an ending. Slowly, I continue.

CeeCee
9th-June-2006, 05:51 PM
Oooh, how exciting a thread devoted to the written expression of our intoxicating passion.
Well done Lynn, a concentrated emotional outlet sounds good to me.
My mind overflows with imagery when I dance, any dance, so if we’re sharing feelings and emotions, bring it on. This is Tango, somebody stop me…

Milongas
Who says that we should go to milongas?
What if we're not ready?
If going increases your self-esteem, then go.
If the experience diminishes your confidence, then don’t.

Imagery
To me, a jive freestyle is like being at a fun fair, so many rides to enjoy, sharing the thrill and excitement with other people. What did JonD say about a roller coaster? We can swap rides enjoying the fun without affecting others, screaming, laughing and shouting if we wish.

Imagery
A Tango milonga is more akin to attending an opera. One conforms to convention, rules are learned and accepted by those who take part. It takes time to learn about operatic styles, arias, librettos, scores, composers, orchestras, historical, legendary and mythological references. Appreciation doesn’t happen overnight. Indeed it is a particular skill to spend in excess of three hours sitting through a performance of singing in any foreign language.

Imagery
Remembering our LTFG at the Dome’s Wednesday milonga, I felt like we were little cars sharing a race-track with high performance vehicles.
They were fast, efficient, sleek and smooth, advancing on us at a pace.
We didn’t have their specifications.
We didn’t have the skill.
We were in their way.

I'll travel where I'm comfortable, if I'm unhappy on the motorway I'll take another route. For now, what about a nice little country lane?
Frustrations are caused by unfulfilled expectations. My expectations need to be realistic.
As proficient jivers our Tango journey has to be approached from a different perspective.
We are but humble beginners again.

Lynn
9th-June-2006, 06:29 PM
Milongas
Who says that we should go to milongas?
What if we're not ready?
If going increases your self-esteem, then go.
If the experience diminishes your confidence, then don’t.I'm not ready to dance at a milonga. But I think I could be inspired by going to watch. And better surely to attend a few where the intention is to soak up the atmosphere and not worry too much about dancing, before attempting to dance at one?

Little did I know when I started this thread of the highs and lows I would experience this week, without even dancing a step. Motivation and action - discouragement and disappointment - support and encouragement - more disappointment - more action - moving in the right direction. Not giving up even when things seemed against me, just made me try even harder.

Why do I care so much about this? I'm usually a fairly logical, rational person. I'm usually well in control of my feelings. But in tango, if we hold on to our feelings too much, if we try to maintain that control, our experience is lessened. We need to feel to dance. Tango unlocks something within me, it has a key to my heart, it demands more, expects more, but also gives more and fulfils more.

David Bailey
9th-June-2006, 08:39 PM
I'm not ready to dance at a milonga. But I think I could be inspired by going to watch. And better surely to attend a few where the intention is to soak up the atmosphere and not worry too much about dancing, before attempting to dance at one?
I dunno - I'm not the type to get inspired, I get (more) grouchy and depressed. I know, I've got a mean spirit...


Why do I care so much about this? I'm usually a fairly logical, rational person. I'm usually well in control of my feelings. But in tango, if we hold on to our feelings too much, if we try to maintain that control, our experience is lessened. We need to feel to dance. Tango unlocks something within me, it has a key to my heart, it demands more, expects more, but also gives more and fulfils more.
Lovely - and true. I've been partner dancing for a loong time, I thought I could handle learning a new dance style without stressing about it. Hah.

I don't know anyone who's serious about AT, who hasn't had Tango crises. KG, a Tango Dance God, still has them. I think it just comes with the territory.

Lynn
10th-June-2006, 11:34 AM
I dunno - I'm not the type to get inspired, I get (more) grouchy and depressed.
I might do as well. Haven't ventured to a milonga yet (there has been only 1 in NI I could go have gone to anyway). But I'm more than happy to stick with practicas for now really, as this is only the first steps on a long journey.

I don't know anyone who's serious about AT, who hasn't had Tango crises. KG, a Tango Dance God, still has them. I think it just comes with the territory.Hence this thread.

I have been upset by things this week, partly because I care about tango and partly because I spent 2 years with a similiar situation in MJ and feel a bit 'not again'. The most helpful comment I got was about these obstacles being part of what was shaping my journey.:flower:

I learned several things. That I care enough to put the effort in, to not give up, to be proactive and perservere. That when I do get discouraged by negative feedback and relative apathy from others (which I have got this week from some people I had hoped would work with me) that this will be countered by positive encouragement from the LTFG. That each time something has knocked me down, I've paused, sought and received support, and continued. That sometimes difficult things are worth trying that bit harder to achieve.

CeeCee
11th-June-2006, 12:43 AM
Tonight’s Tango High

I'm too excited to sleep


Tango Por Dos
Peacock Theatre, Portugal Street, London, WC1
19.30-22.00


The show was amazing, some parts simply magnificent, the dancers worked hard and were mostly fast and energetic. Where were the slow dances though? Even so, it was tango we could recognise, tango we could identify with and tango we could aspire to. (Well perhaps not the sheer volume of kicks, flicks, jumps and lifts.)

I would have enjoyed it even more if I could just become a fan of the bandoneon but sadly the sound of it still sets my teeth on edge sometimes. A little (or a lot) more Nuevo Tango would have been the icing on the cake.

In one of the best scenes LMC and I noticed that the chaps in black suits and black t-shirts, wore different coloured shoes, red, blue, green and… mustard(?) How comes the boys didn’t see this? Nothing to do with the way the girls on stage were dressed at the time, surely!

The show is definitely worth seeing and thanks to Clive, our tango events organiser, for booking super seats right at the front of the stalls. It was great to be close enought to see the many glorious costumes so well.

Hopefully, DJ, CL and LMC will post their impressions of the show too. Thanks for your company tonight guys, you were great fun.

David Bailey
11th-June-2006, 05:48 PM
{ Snip colourful review }
It was very nice indeed.

The first half was "strictly AT" - focus on individual couples; the laydeez in gorgeous dresses and the gents in suits. Lovely action, and very recognisable as (very very fast) versions of the steps we all know, but of course done with style and verve. And very fast - did I mention that they were fast?

The music for the first half was traditional AT - not a drum to be heard. It got on my nerves after a while too.

The second half was more modern - a variety of costumes (some of which, frankly, didn't do much for me), and a variety of themes - more of a story-telling element to it. The music was much more to my liking, but ironically, the dancing wasn't (can't have everything :rolleyes: ).

However, there were two absolutely stomping performances in the second half; both times, involving pretty much the whole group. One half way through, and the finale piece.

Downsides: it was a lot of tango - if you don't love tango, don't go. There was very little attempt at a storyline, or anything to distract you from the dancing. Which is a good thing of course - but maybe not if you're just looking for a general night out.

I also agree with CeeCee about the pace - some more slow dances would have been nice, but I guess performance AT is fast, that's all there is to it.

Clive Long
11th-June-2006, 07:03 PM
Hopefully, DJ, CL and LMC will post their impressions of the show too. Thanks for your company tonight guys, you were great fun.
It has all been said by CeeCee and DJ cop out

There's lots of Tango in the show. If you don't like Argetine Tango you'll find the evening a trifle repetitive.

Yep. Could have benefitted from more contrast in the dance styles. Fast, slow and graceful, passionate.

For me the overall recollection is more a West End Show with big set pieces.

The idea of the History of Tango could have been presented a little more plainly - using the male singer to set the scene. "Refugees. Off the boat. Ruthless gang leaders. Abducted into prostitution .... " But maybe that would have been a bit too obvious.

I liked the band and wasn't irritated by the music earlier in the show. There's far more irritating Tango music around than what they played. The music was varied and interesting to me. Accordians are big in Tango music but got in the way of the laydeez costumes (they were wearing something, right? my spectacles kept on steaming up). I liked the singers. Top marks to the female singer who danced at the same time. The male singer was obviously well-versed in the "David Barker school of stage gymnastics".

An enjoyable evening for me, shared with good company and lots of "style" to absorb from the DVD.


Clive

David Bailey
11th-June-2006, 09:48 PM
Can I also say, :respect: to Mr Long for managing to both navigate through Hampstead Garden Suburb (I never thought it could be done) and getting me disoriented, in North London (albeit only for 5 seconds).

Oops. Off-topic, sorry :innocent: :blush:

Clive Long
11th-June-2006, 11:42 PM
Can I also say, :respect: to Mr Long for managing to both navigate through Hampstead Garden Suburb (I never thought it could be done) and getting me disoriented, in North London (albeit only for 5 seconds).

Oops. Off-topic, sorry :innocent: :blush:
What you forgot to mention is that CeeCee actually stopped the car and went very quiet. I think she was debating whether to walk home - and she was driving.

What a woman :respect:

Wodge.

Lynn
12th-June-2006, 08:09 AM
Since we have gone a little off topic (stern look at DJ, but glad I only have to navigate through the teeny city of Belfast) and trying to drag things back to tango highs and lows - a question.

Anyone any comments or experience (that they are able/willing to share) on the cumlative effect of lots of 'other stuff' going on and dancing tango? If you are already emotionally floating on clouds does this make the tango experience better? Or the reverse? Are the tango highs and lows a separate thing from the rest of life or is there overlap and build up?

David Bailey
12th-June-2006, 12:06 PM
Since we have gone a little off topic (stern look at DJ :blush: :innocent:

Anyone any comments or experience (that they are able/willing to share) on the cumlative effect of lots of 'other stuff' going on and dancing tango? If you are already emotionally floating on clouds does this make the tango experience better? Or the reverse? Are the tango highs and lows a separate thing from the rest of life or is there overlap and build up?
I haven't noticed any correlation - but I'm not sure, as I'm still in learning-only mode, I haven't really done any social dancing so I'm not sure how I'll feel when I do.

Lory
12th-June-2006, 01:23 PM
Tango Low.. At Southport last September, I'd been watching Mandy Henderson and her lovely partner (anyone know his name?) Tango and they looked fabulous :worthy: :waycool: Now, i'd only been learning for a few weeks but I thought, what the hell, I'll ask him anyway.:na:

OMG I was truly and embarrassingly bad.:tears: From the very onset of the dance, I went wrong and instantly tensed up. From that moment on, it just got worse, I was trying far too hard NOT to go wrong and making it ten times worse by horrendously anticipating. :sad: The dance was pure agony and I was kicking myself for being so stupid for asking. :rolleyes: All the time he was lovely, trying to make me feel better about it but I just wanted the floor to open up and swallow me!:blush: :(

Tango high... This time at southport... the same guy, stood at the edge of the blues room floor, watching me and Kev Tango and then, 'he' asked 'me'. :really: I joked and said, are you sure, you do remember last time, don't you:confused: He said yes but I can see you've had a little practice since then! ;) I wasn't perfect but I did feel I held my own and I didn't panic and my confidence didn't take a bashing this time.:clap: :cheers: :na:

The best part of all was (nothing to do with Tango) later that evening, he asked me for a another dance... 'West coast swing' and this time 'he' was the total beginner! :grin: and just in case he reads this... your going to be terrific!:wink: :hug:

Lynn
12th-June-2006, 01:52 PM
I haven't noticed any correlation - but I'm not sure, as I'm still in learning-only mode, I haven't really done any social dancing so I'm not sure how I'll feel when I do.I probably didn't explain myself very well. I should have said 'trying to dance' tango. I just feel like beating a retreat on the tango front for a while.

Lynn
16th-June-2006, 03:56 PM
Tango cancelled again!:tears:

Last week too, so no chance to see anyone else from the class to arrange to meet up over the summer, swap contact details etc. :tears: :tears:


(OK Lynn, deep breaths, this is just another one of those obstacles...)

CeeCee
17th-June-2006, 02:48 PM
My Mini Milonga

Friday 16th June 2006
The Casbah, Baden Powell House, South Kensington, London

Tango High last night at the Casbah. I popped out into the waiting area, vestibule, box office, foyer bit of the venue during a period of less than inspiring music (!) to find a couple dancing tango. They were lovely to watch and they didn’t mind an audience as they danced fluently together. During a pause he happily demonstrated some simple steps with his partner for my enjoyment and education.
I didn’t say that I’m learning and he didn’t ask.

Leader – lessons for two years, one year off, back for a few months no more lessons.
Follower – no lessons, he is teaching her.

Was she really following?
Was he really leading?
Were they dancing set sequences?
There was only one way to find out…

We danced. It was lovely. He led. I followed. We walked, I crossed, we walked, I did forward ochos, we walked, I did backward ochos and we walked some more.

Afterwards he said that he has never led anyone but his dance partner and he was terrified of dancing with me (help).
I would never have guessed, I was just impressed.

originally posted by JonD
Somehow it gives AT more of a context and it also allows me to express my enthusiasm to fellow addicts rather than bore work colleagues, family or complete strangers!
We never know where these fellow addicts will be. Last night my time was more tango related than jive related and another couple came outside to tango too. We had a mini milonga thing going on.



originally posted by DavidJames
So why do it? Because, when it does occasionally come together, it's really really good. And you can feel it when something clicks - and it's a great feeling.
So true, so true.

David Bailey
17th-June-2006, 09:13 PM
We never know where these fellow addicts will be. Last night my time was more tango related than jive related and another couple came outside to tango too. We had a mini milonga thing going on.
Hmmm, I'm almost tempted to go to the Casbah, do you reckon they'll be back?

Or, maybe we should have LTFG meetings at Ceroc venues, given the right music anything's possible...

Lynn
27th-June-2006, 08:24 AM
Tango lows and highs in one day.

Trains not running, no travel options for return, therefore unable to go. Nothing I can do by myself to change this situation. Disappointment. Frustration.

The kindness of others, new arrangements made. Hope.

Anxiety, anxious about being anxious, uncertainty mixed with determination.

Relaxing, focusing, flowing. Encouraging feedback. A very worthwhile evening.

Rebecca
27th-June-2006, 08:55 AM
Tango Low..I'd been watching Mandy Henderson and her lovely partner (anyone know his name?) Tango and they looked fabulous :worthy: :waycool:

His name's Ian. Dan and I sat with them for breakfast at Rockbottoms and they were both lovely. I remember him saying that he's also a martial arts expert / trainer and so probably knows a thing or two about perseverance.


Anyone any comments or experience (that they are able/willing to share) on the cumlative effect of lots of 'other stuff' going on and dancing tango? If you are already emotionally floating on clouds does this make the tango experience better? Or the reverse? Are the tango highs and lows a separate thing from the rest of life or is there overlap and build up?

I think you have something there Lynn. When I had my first tango high I was very much floating on a cloud generally that I don't think anything could get me down. Tango allowed me to experience the cloud-floating in a very lovely way :wink: .

These last couple of weeks, I've been given a promotion at work, am stressed about it, trying to meet my own unrelenting standards and worried about failing. I went to a workshop with Ricardo and Jenny (they were FAB!!) on Saturday, had three tango's out as there were too many women, missed the teach on sacardas, couldn't get it immediately and so cried - there and then in the middle of the class, just as Jenny came over to help me :blush: GUTTED! Luckily I think only her and Dan saw.

I have NEVER had that with Jive, although used to with Ballet - I wonder why :confused:

Feelingpink
27th-June-2006, 11:03 AM
His name's Ian. Dan and I sat with them for breakfast at Rockbottoms and they were both lovely. I remember him saying that he's also a martial arts expert / trainer and so probably knows a thing or two about perseverance.
...

Hey, THAT Ian. He is indeed truly lovely and I'd danced with him at a RockBottoms & previous Southport, but he had gout - which for a guy who doesn't drink and has the healthiest diet I've ever known, seemed really unfair. I hope he's managed to overcome it - not fun.

Lynn
1st-July-2006, 12:08 AM
I think you have something there Lynn. When I had my first tango high I was very much floating on a cloud generally that I don't think anything could get me down. Tango allowed me to experience the cloud-floating in a very lovely way :wink: . Thinking on this I can see it in myself as well. I felt great about the tango at Southport but I have had so many good experiences there over the years that just being there gives me a feel good factor. So that would heighten any tango experience. All recent tango experiences have been much more down to earth, I haven't got lost in the clouds.

These last couple of weeks, I've been given a promotion at work, am stressed about it, trying to meet my own unrelenting standards and worried about failing. I went to a workshop with Ricardo and Jenny (they were FAB!!) on Saturday, had three tango's out as there were too many women, missed the teach on sacardas, couldn't get it immediately and so cried - there and then in the middle of the class, just as Jenny came over to help me :blush: GUTTED! Luckily I think only her and Dan saw.:hug: We invest more of ourselves in tango. And that probably includes more of our frustrations as well. And of course tango itself has the capacity to be infinitely frustrating.

philsmove
3rd-July-2006, 10:39 PM
Another Tango Low

Don’t think I can face another evening dancing with men

Why don’t Tango classes rotate ceroc style or gender balance

Lynn
3rd-July-2006, 11:02 PM
Another Tango Low

Don’t think I can face another evening dancing with men

Why don’t Tango classes rotate ceroc style or gender balanceOr why are there so many men there? Usually the problem is the other way round. But :hug: for the frustration it must cause you. Our classes do rotate, and the gender balance is equally frustrating for us women when we can't find a man to go with (eg a while back there were going to be improver level classes - they didn't happen, but they were on a 'byo partner' basis, so I would have had to miss them as most men in our local class turn up with their wives.)

CeeCee
4th-July-2006, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by philsmove
Don’t think I can face another evening dancing with men
mmm… where are your classes again?

Seriously, I do feel sorry for you Phil, it is annoying standing around. You’ve paid your money like everyone else but it’s demoralising and humiliating if you feel you are missing out. Your enthusiasm suffers and some teachers don’t notice or don’t care.

Tango Low

Last night we had guys hanging around too but they didn't dance with each other. Our small class was four men and three women. Strangely one of the women kept disappearing(!) and the other woman didn’t rotate so I rotated with two chaps and sometimes three. Not sure why but it was a bit odd really.

Anyway, enough of that.
What can I say about the class?
It is time for Kicca to come back now. Whatever she is still doing with Take That needs to stop because the Dome needs her.

Last night our teacher (yes, yes, yes, the same one we’ve praised often in the past) seemed distracted and preoccupied, his usual focus and concentration were absent.
Is he in love? Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

The moves were complicated and not broken down.
We hardly had time to practise them anyway because he constantly changed them, supposedly to ‘something easier’.


originally posted by Lynn
Are the tango highs and lows a separate thing from the rest of life or is there overlap and build up?
I’ll go with ‘overlap and build up’ for now, Lynn.
As the class was so irritating the uneven floor became an issue last night. We've laughed about it before as it’s never been good with it’s broken boards, grooves and cracks. Why do so many advanced dancers tolerate it at the busy weekly Wednesday milonga? There must be other attractions which we beginners don't know about yet. Yes the dancing is different but they couldn’t get away with such a poor quality floor for a jive freestyle.

It was particularly sticky last night and one funny chappy suggested that it may be the result of a beer spilling competition involving the weekend visitors to the pub downstairs. (Great suggestion Clive) Several trips to the pile of talc to powder my shoes weren’t enough and pivoting in sticky shoes plays havoc with the knees.

Not sure I learned anything last night.
Did anyone amid the confusion?
Perhaps the lurking CL would disagree with me but I saw him looking puzzled and bemused more than once too.

Oh well, there’ll be other Mondays,


























I guess...

Lynn
22nd-July-2006, 10:39 AM
Tango frustrations - again!

I have been hoping to get together with a couple of other local folk to get a practica going. I checked availability of several venues and have one lined up. I have been emailing, meeting people for coffee and talking on the phone, generally encouraging the others, showing my support and offering to help.

And what happens? They want to run a practica this Friday, when I am away at a conference. :tears: Why do things like this keep happening?

I sent on the contact details for the venue, but I'm not sure if they are going to go ahead.

KatieR
22nd-July-2006, 10:50 AM
My tango high this last week has been a weekender with Demian Garcia & Carolina Bonaventura from Argentina... The Milonga workshop was awesome. Their floor show was absolutely fabulous. They are spectacular to watch and have some amazing style.

Lynn
30th-July-2006, 08:11 PM
Has anyone else ever just hit so many obstacles that its got to be too much, too difficult, too demanding?

I think I've reached that point with Tango. :(

KatieR
14th-August-2006, 11:18 AM
Has anyone else ever just hit so many obstacles that its got to be too much, too difficult, too demanding?

I think I've reached that point with Tango. :(

What do you mean by obstacles? there are moments where it seems difficult, but if it wasn't hard, everyone would be doing it. Dont give up!!

Lynn
14th-August-2006, 12:15 PM
What do you mean by obstacles? there are moments where it seems difficult, but if it wasn't hard, everyone would be doing it. Dont give up!!By obstacles I mean there not being any tango classes or teachers within 3 hours travel... classes I hope will be running not happening - not being able to have any consistent teaching and not getting to see if I can put it all together and actually follow a dance.

However, I was able to do the latter at Tango Mango, and I can see some progress over the past few months - that's enough encouragement to continue.

KatieR
15th-August-2006, 12:21 PM
By obstacles I mean there not being any tango classes or teachers within 3 hours travel... classes I hope will be running not happening - not being able to have any consistent teaching and not getting to see if I can put it all together and actually follow a dance.
.

that can certainly be difficult. I have the same problem with West Coast. No one in South Australia teaches it. Its very frustrating.

Lynn
15th-August-2006, 12:25 PM
that can certainly be difficult. I have the same problem with West Coast. No one in South Australia teaches it. Its very frustrating.Yep, have that with WCS as well. We only got Ceroc in Jan.

But we have tango for the next 3 weeks anyway! Not sure about after that.

Lynn
19th-August-2006, 10:08 AM
Tango highs

(About flippin time, you think, after lots of 'lows'...)

Dancing tango in the same country I live in for a change!

The tango teacher admiring my new shoes. :D

Having a practica! :clap: As well as a chance to dance, it was also so nice just to sit around with the other dancers and chat. We all know each other from the classes last term but there wasn't really much time to talk at class. Nice to have a social side developing and more liklihood of people wanting, and therefore supporting, future practicas as we all get to know one another better.

After Mango, having the confidence now to get up with someone, melt into the embrace and simply dance. Something doesn't go quite right, instead of anxious 'sorry's from me, we smile, or laugh softly and continue. Lovely.

Lynn
29th-August-2006, 12:55 PM
Should be a tango low, but its not.

Tango plans for tonight not happening. But I don't care. Perhaps because I'm in such a good mood today (yeah I know, its the start of the week, I shouldn't be, but I am!) but I think my earlier frustrations and disappointments were because I felt I was getting nowhere and making no progress.

Several hours of tango chat with a fellow enthusiast at the weekend (on a lovely outside balcony, the number of nice coffee shops in Belfast has definitely increased in recent years) helped. It may be slow, it may need a lot of work, but a tango scene is beginning to develop in Belfast.

David Bailey
29th-August-2006, 09:00 PM
I'm in a real Tango Low, was planning to go to Tango tonight, but I bl00dy can't. :tears:

I know, whinge whinge whinge. But Clive's going, and CeeCee's going, and I'm stuck here. Being grumpy.

Grump.

Hmm, I feel better now :grin:

JonD
29th-August-2006, 10:28 PM
Well, I dragged myself up to the practica tonight, despite the fact that I'm still suffering slightly from the dread disease that is "man flu", to find that there were just 3 of us there. Tracy, Michael and I did some stuff on walks and took turns videoing each other so it wasn't a total loss. My pivots were pants though.

A 3 month break in lessons is just too long. We'll be starting again from scratch in October. If we're going to create an AT community in Exeter we need much smaller gaps between "terms". Ho hum.

Clive Long
29th-August-2006, 10:31 PM
I'm in a real Tango Low, was planning to go to Tango tonight, but I bl00dy can't. :tears:

I know, whinge whinge whinge. But Clive's going, and CeeCee's going, and I'm stuck here. Being grumpy.

Grump.

Hmm, I feel better now :grin:
It was good

Complete the step before initiating the pivot,
Complete the step before initiating the pivot,
Complete the step before initiating the pivot, ...

Lynn
30th-August-2006, 01:24 AM
I'm in a real Tango Low, was planning to go to Tango tonight, but I bl00dy can't. :tears::hug:
I should have felt like that. My tango plans weren't happening. But I was still in fabulous form all day. Then a call as I arrived home from work 'lets go'. Drop everything, quick (very quick) change and off we went - to Dublin.

Happiness is...

...hearing a Gotan track at a milonga and asking a man to dance. Not that Nikos was overly impressed, he's really not into the new wave of tango music. But I enjoyed it, he humoured me, then played Gardel and Di Sarli CDs all the way home.

Oh, and a dance with a stranger that had my pulse rate up a notch or two. Sexy stuff, this tango.

Whitebeard
31st-August-2006, 12:20 AM
AT is not for me. I have enough of a problem trying to develop my MJ. However I do admire the enthusiasm of those who embrace this dance. Having said that, I do find one aspect of AT very peculiar (even ungainly) giving me the impression of a physical imbalance. This is where the follower leans rigidly at an angle against the leader; which must require a pretty strong physical "frame" on the part of both partners. I emphasize IMPO.

Which may, or may not, have relevance to a situation I have recently encountered. Some months ago a lady asked me to dance (not that unusual) and during its early stages I was aware of a strange expression passing over my partners face as though ..... I glanced around for the signpost to Damascus. Afterward she went into raptures about my lead. (Of course it went to my head, I'm not used to adulation.) When I'd recovered from that I was a happy man, added her to my mental list of favourite dancers, and all should thereafter have been well in my dancing world.

And so it came to pass for a while until, several weeks ago, when partnering her to a fastish dance (OK as long as they don't drag on too long) I became slowly aware that something was wrong with the connection. Even allowing for the tempo it was just too heavy and a bit .... sort of, jerky .... the usual smooth flow was just not there. It was a case of ..... clenching teeth and hanging on in there. Then, a couple of so weeks ago, the next dance seemed to go completely to pieces. I think the connection broke apart a couple of times and she was failing to follow through into some of the moves I was trying to lead. An utter disaster, recalling real beginner days.

It seems ungallant to shift the blame onto this lady, but all my other ladies (says he) give dances just as I would normally expect. No, something about her dancing has changed. And this is where we at last come to the AT connection.

Of recent weeks, perhaps a number of months, the lady has acquired a regular dance partner and I have seen them practicing AT rather than participating in the int. class. Somewhere in this new situation I believe lies the answer. The leader is a better and more experienced dancer than me so I don't think it lies directly at his door. The connection in the two dances is in general so different, AT closed position with I assume a pretty strong frame, MJ mostly in open position and hand lead, that it is difficult to see how one can affect the other. However, during that last dance I did notice the lady was putting in a lot of styling with those abrupt latiny head movements much in evidence.

Could it be that it is her new found concentration on latin styling that is interfering with her following and connection ?

Lynn
31st-August-2006, 12:36 AM
Many wiser heads could comment on this, and I hope they do, but I'll throw in my beginner follower experiences...
Having said that, I do find one aspect of AT very peculiar (even ungainly) giving me the impression of a physical imbalance. This is where the follower leans rigidly at an angle against the leader; which must require a pretty strong physical "frame" on the part of both partners. I emphasize IMPO. Tango has a very flexible frame. Its constantly shifting to allow the freedom of movement. AFAIK in normal tango the woman does lean forward, but isn't putting her weight onto the man (unless its a specific move where he leads her to do that) she has her own weight, her own balance, forward. This is something I'm really working on (and struggling with).

The connection in the two dances is in general so different, AT closed position with I assume a pretty strong frame, MJ mostly in open position and hand lead, that it is difficult to see how one can affect the other.
The physical style of the connection is different and the connection is 'stronger' in that smaller movements from the man leads the women, and can be more intense. I would have thought that doing AT would make a woman a lighter, more responsive follow.


However, during that last dance I did notice the lady was putting in a lot of styling with those abrupt latiny head movements much in evidence. Abrupt head movements does not sound like AT, certainly not the style danced at any milonga I have been to. It sounds like ballroom tango to me, or some other latin style.

Could it be that it is her new found concentration on latin styling that is interfering with her following and connection? Its possible that she is letting styling, of whatever kind it is, get in the way of connection. For me, dancing tango is all about relaxing, following, connecting with my partner. That's what I love about it. But maybe if she is just learning another dance style, it will take a while for her to be able to merge what she is learning in it, into her MJ.

Clive Long
31st-August-2006, 09:32 AM
AT is not for me.Come on, stop shilly-shallying. Say what you mean.

I have enough of a problem trying to develop my MJ. However I do admire the enthusiasm of those who embrace this dance.
Bone-headedness more like.


Having said that, I do find one aspect of AT very peculiar (even ungainly)
Careful, careful
giving me the impression of a physical imbalance. This is where the follower leans rigidly at an angle against the leader; which must require a pretty strong physical "frame" on the part of both partners. I emphasize IMPO.

I think you are bang on. Most (all?) of the lessons I have been to emphasise the direct physical connection betwen the dancers. However, those whose classes I have attended frown upon "the lean" as the standard posture - although there is a "move" which is quite dramatic that involves a very pronounced lean - is that the "Bridge" CeeCee?


Which may, or may not, have relevance to a situation I have recently encountered. << snip >> I became slowly aware that something was wrong with the connection. Even allowing for the tempo it was just too heavy and a bit .... sort of, jerky .... the usual smooth flow was just not there. It was a case of ..... clenching teeth and hanging on in there. Then, a couple of so weeks ago, the next dance seemed to go completely to pieces. I think the connection broke apart a couple of times and she was failing to follow through into some of the moves I was trying to lead. An utter disaster, recalling real beginner days.

Horrible, horrible.


It seems ungallant to shift the blame onto this lady,

But you really want to don't you?

but all my other ladies
You lucky man


(says he) give dances just as I would normally expect. No, something about her dancing has changed. And this is where we at last come to the AT connection.

Of recent weeks, perhaps a number of months, the lady has acquired a regular dance partner and I have seen them practicing AT rather than participating in the int. class. Somewhere in this new situation I believe lies the answer. The leader is a better and more experienced dancer than me so I don't think it lies directly at his door. The connection in the two dances is in general so different, AT closed position with I assume a pretty strong frame, MJ mostly in open position and hand lead,

I think you are right but you can dance close in MJ as demonstrated to me by ZW and Sparkles, at the same time (eyes mist over as moves into dream-like state)


that it is difficult to see how one can affect the other. However, during that last dance I did notice the lady was putting in a lot of styling with those abrupt latiny head movements much in evidence.

Ugh, ghastly. Nothing to do with any AT I know.


Could it be that it is her new found concentration on latin styling that is interfering with her following and connection ?
May be, may be. "Latin styling" and AT not the same. I'm not defending AT here.
AT-bigots will say it is all about connection, lead, follow - but I think that is true of any dance danced competently or well. Yes, even MJ.
My MJ style has changed since I took up AT. I won't say it is better. I find now I confuse less experienced followers but give a more interesting dance to very good followers who can somehow work out what I am doing. My repertoire of MJ "moves" does not extend to the "Basic 16".
AT isn't for all. Technically it demands more from the dancer than MJ, as does Lindy, WCS, salsa even :eek: . However, watching some of the dancers at MJ venues I go to, they create wonderful movements that are still recognisably MJ to me.

Interesting post Clive.

Clive

jivecat
31st-August-2006, 10:58 AM
Many wiser heads could comment on this, and I hope they do, but I'll throw in my beginner follower experiences... Ditto.


Tango has a very flexible frame. Its constantly shifting to allow the freedom of movement. AFAIK in normal tango the woman does lean forward, but isn't putting her weight onto the man (unless its a specific move where he leads her to do that) she has her own weight, her own balance, forward.
If I understood the Close Hold workshop at the TM correctly, that is exactly what they were trying to get us to do. We had to do various exercises which involved leaning against each other with various parts of the body (?!) and very definitely sharing the weight. The theory was that if you could achieve the "one body, four legs" bit then following and connection was as natural and easy as breathing. However, this didn't involve the very unnatural-looking "A" frame position when the lower bodies are some way apart (The vicar would approve.) that I have occasionally seen and been told it is a speific style which I can't remember any details of.
The CH workshop included a bit of work on how the lady could find the space to carry out ochoes given the limited room when the leaders & follower's feet are pretty close together.
Having previously been mystified and terrified by dancing AT in close hold, this workshop did make everything seem much clearer and easier, but having not done it since it's probably going to be back to square one for me. I think the key to the close hold working properly is complete relaxation on the part of both partners - not really compatible with a sense of suspense and terror.:rolleyes:

Don't know if this has anything to do with what Whitebeard was describing. Happy Birthday for whenever it was, BTW.:flower:

jivecat
31st-August-2006, 11:33 AM
Having said that, I do find one aspect of AT very peculiar (even ungainly) giving me the impression of a physical imbalance. This is where the follower leans rigidly at an angle against the leader; which must require a pretty strong physical "frame" on the part of both partners................SNIP........ The connection in the two dances is in general so different, AT closed position with I assume a pretty strong frame, MJ mostly in open position and hand lead, that it is difficult to see how one can affect the other. The leaning of the weight would in itself create "the frame". It would not require any additional effort/intention/control to create a frame. If anything, it would challenge balance, as I think I might feel that I was going to topple off his chest sideways! But then, don't suppose I'd be doing it properly.
I don't think it's possible to dance many moves in MJ easily without a frame, let alone AT, but because it is created by the hands, arms and shoulders it requires to be done with conscious intention, at least at first. Almost all of the AT I have done so far has been in semi-open hold - i.e. left hand on the man's shoulder, right hand to his left. I'm beginning to think we're overly genteel in Market Harboro.
Lots of the exercises in class are done in "practise hold" i.e. hands on your partner's upper arms which gently enforces a good frame.


Afterward she went into raptures about my lead. Hope you looked suitably grateful!



......something was wrong with the connection. Even allowing for the tempo it was just too heavy and a bit .... sort of, jerky .... the usual smooth flow was just not there. It was a case of ..... clenching teeth and hanging on in there. Then, a couple of so weeks ago, the next dance seemed to go completely to pieces. I think the connection broke apart a couple of times and she was failing to follow through into some of the moves I was trying to lead. An utter disaster, recalling real beginner days.........SNIP..............
Could it be that it is her new found concentration on latin styling that is interfering with her following and connection ?

There are lots of things that interfere with my connection and following. Like

*Being distracted. By an event in the room or my own state of mind.
*Being bored. Not really any excuse for this one.
*Trying to add a new feature to my dancing that is as yet imperfectly learned. I can't follow and practise something at the same time. Especially styling.
*I'm trying - badly - to slot in my own interpretation of the music/improvisation and failing to incorporate this into my leader's plans.
*I hate the music.
*My understanding of the rhythm is different from my partner's. (There, how PC was that?)
*I've been on a Sabotage workshop and can only half-remember what was learned.
*I don't want to do a particular move for some reason. Like a dodgy off-balance drop. Or throw my leg round some geezer's waist because he's barking instructions in my ear. I tend to go on strike under certain circumstances. But I'm assuming you don't do anything like that!:)
*Thinking too much about what I'M doing instead of what HE'S doing , or even better, WE'RE doing.

Could any of these have been a factor in the above excruciating dance? You could ask her for her thoughts on how your dances together were going. You could refer to other stuff she's been trying to learn and ask her to talk you through some of it. Being tactful, you could say that you'd been doing some work on connection and would she mind helping you try a few things out? Given her previous rapturous response to your lead she'll probably be flattered!

I can't think of anything about AT styling that would cause the effects you mention. I don't think I've been taught much styling yet, I think basic technique takes ten years.:sad:

David Bailey
31st-August-2006, 12:25 PM
I do find one aspect of AT very peculiar (even ungainly) giving me the impression of a physical imbalance. This is where the follower leans rigidly at an angle against the leader; which must require a pretty strong physical "frame" on the part of both partners. I emphasize IMPO.
I don't think the "lean" has to be that weird - some people do it, some don't. The hold should feel comfortable, that's the main thing. If you're both literally leaning against each other, then you're both starting off being off-balance, which is bad.

Obviously, in a close hold, you have to find a posture that allows for both the closeness of the upper bodies (touching) and the movement of the legs. But that doesn't mean leaning. In my opinion, the default position for both follower and leader should adhere to the simple test: do you fall over if your partner is taken away? If the answer is "yes", then I don't think that's a good position to be in.

And in a non-close hold, I don't think there's any reason to lean at all.


The connection in the two dances is in general so different, AT closed position with I assume a pretty strong frame, MJ mostly in open position and hand lead, that it is difficult to see how one can affect the other.
Hmmm, I think there is a certain amount of overlap - for example, that's pretty much the entire justification for Jango. You can definitely do AT in non-closed hold, and Jive in close hold, if you want.


However, during that last dance I did notice the lady was putting in a lot of styling with those abrupt latiny head movements much in evidence.
:confused: I don't think AT does latiny head movements - the head stays pretty much where it is... Maybe they're doing ballroom tango?


Could it be that it is her new found concentration on latin styling that is interfering with her following and connection ?
Good question. Learning a new dance doesn't automatically help with an old dance - as Clive has said, my lead has definitely changed, but I don't know if it's improved. And, again repeating Clive's points, my lead of beginner ladies is possibly worse because it's so different.

Who knows. It's a journey, as the saying goes :)

jivecat
31st-August-2006, 12:38 PM
I don't think the "lean" has to be that weird - some people do it, some don't. The hold should feel comfortable, that's the main thing. If you're both literally leaning against each other, then you're both starting off being off-balance, which is bad.

Obviously, in a close hold, you have to find a posture that allows for both the closeness of the upper bodies (touching) and the movement of the legs. But that doesn't mean leaning. In my opinion, the default position for both follower and leader should adhere to the simple test: do you fall over if your partner is taken away? If the answer is "yes", then I don't think that's a good position to be in. As I understood it, yes, you were supposed to be in a position so that you would fall over if your partner were to suddenly dematerialise. But the point is that they don't, as a rule.
I seem to recall phrases such as "give weight to your partner". I think the weight given should be matched, just as hand pressure would be in a MJ connection.



And in a non-close hold, I don't think there's any reason to lean at all.
:yeah:



Good question. Learning a new dance doesn't automatically help with an old dance - as Clive has said, my lead has definitely changed, but I don't know if it's improved.

Has got me thinking now, has my follow changed due to AT? Maybe I'm less likely to do anything at all if in doubt. Apart from the sort done at the side of the dance floor, there's not much "waiting" involved in MJ so it might well lead to a few funny looks, of the "What's wrong with this bl**dy woman?" variety.

Lynn
31st-August-2006, 12:56 PM
If I understood the Close Hold workshop at the TM correctly, that is exactly what they were trying to get us to do. We had to do various exercises which involved leaning against each other with various parts of the body (?!) and very definitely sharing the weight. The theory was that if you could achieve the "one body, four legs" bit then following and connection was as natural and easy as breathing. Not just in close hold, I've been observing women's body posture recently - and I see some leaning in but still somehow with space - ie they don't suddenly lean back if they move out of close hold.


However, this didn't involve the very unnatural-looking "A" frame position when the lower bodies are some way apart (The vicar would approve.) that I have occasionally seen and been told it is a speific style which I can't remember any details of. Off the top of my head, so very possibly wrong, but is it milonguero?

Feelingpink
31st-August-2006, 01:22 PM
Not just in close hold, I've been observing women's body posture recently - and I see some leaning in but still somehow with space - ie they don't suddenly lean back if they move out of close hold.

Off the top of my head, so very possibly wrong, but is it milonguero?I thought it was a roundabout that DJ is so wonderful at leading (not sure that's the correct term or what the lead is exactly ... just know it feels yummy to be in it).

Lynn
31st-August-2006, 01:26 PM
I thought it was a roundabout that DJ is so wonderful at leading (not sure that's the correct term or what the lead is exactly ... just know it feels yummy to be in it).I was referring to the very much leaning in style of dancing, rather than a leaning in move. I'm aware that 'very much leaning in' isn't a very technical term. But I'm still rather tired.

Feelingpink
31st-August-2006, 01:33 PM
I was referring to the very much leaning in style of dancing, rather than a leaning in move. I'm aware that 'very much leaning in' isn't a very technical term. But I'm still rather tired.Sorry. :hug:

Lynn
31st-August-2006, 01:40 PM
Sorry. :hug:No probs. The terms can get confusing. Milonguero, as well as being that close, leaning in style, is also (I think) the term for someone who goes to milongas.

David Bailey
31st-August-2006, 01:55 PM
I thought it was a roundabout that DJ is so wonderful at leading
Me? :confused: :blush:


(not sure that's the correct term or what the lead is exactly ... just know it feels yummy to be in it).
Carousel, yes? There's a even-yummier version of this called the Planeo, where the lady sticks out her non-weight-bearing foot and drags it behind her whilst pivoting.

I've yet to meet a woman who doesn't like the Planeo.

But, you do not have to lean against your partner to do either of these moves. In fact, it's actually easier to do them if you don't lean, because all you need to do it pivot, there's no weight-moving requirement on your partner.

As for leaning:

As I understood it, yes, you were supposed to be in a position so that you would fall over if your partner were to suddenly dematerialise. But the point is that they don't, as a rule.
Hey, there's always a first time.

I've heard lots of different opinions from tango teachers on this, but to me, leaning too much means you sacrifice balance, and that's bad. Leaning a little is OK - but not so much that you fall over. You should never rely on your partner to keep you upright by default, I think.

Feelingpink
31st-August-2006, 02:05 PM
Me? :confused: :blush:


Carousel, yes? There's a even-yummier version of this called the Planeo, where the lady sticks out her non-weight-bearing foot and drags it behind her whilst pivoting.

I've yet to meet a woman who doesn't like the Planeo.

But, you do not have to lean against your partner to do either of these moves. In fact, it's actually easier to do them if you don't lean, because all you need to do it pivot, there's no weight-moving requirement on your partner.

As for leaning:

Hey, there's always a first time.

I've heard lots of different opinions from tango teachers on this, but to me, leaning too much means you sacrifice balance, and that's bad. Leaning a little is OK - but not so much that you fall over. You should never rely on your partner to keep you upright by default, I think.Roundabout, carousel ... well, I was close. :blush: Like the sound of the Planeo :hug:

jivecat
31st-August-2006, 02:51 PM
I've heard lots of different opinions from tango teachers on this, but to me, leaning too much means you sacrifice balance, and that's bad. Leaning a little is OK - but not so much that you fall over. You should never rely on your partner to keep you upright by default, I think.

I'll be monitoring it, if I ever get around to dancing in close hold again.

They did this cute group lean thing at the end of the workshop where we had to stand in a circle and lean inwards until the pressure of our shoulders wedged us together so we didn't fall over. Like stones in an archway. Well, I thought it was cute. No-one fell over, anyway.

JonD
31st-August-2006, 05:21 PM
Interesting question Whitebeard, and an interesting discussion: food for thought. I wonder how much dancing AT has altered my MJ lead and connection (I know it's altered the way I move and my musical interpretation).


AT is not for me.
Go on, give it a go! It's delicious.


Having said that, I do find one aspect of AT very peculiar (even ungainly) giving me the impression of a physical imbalance. This is where the follower leans rigidly at an angle against the leader; which must require a pretty strong physical "frame" on the part of both partners.

Whitebeard, the way you describe the change in your connection with this particular follower makes me doubt that she'd doing AT - as the others have said, Ballroom Tango seems more likely. Not only have I never seen those stylised, dramatic head flicks in AT but I believe the frame in AT is altogether "softer" and more fluid than in the ballroom version (I've never really danced ballroom tango but Julie has and demonstrated the differences to me). It's strange how your connection with some partners changes like this, and I don't think that it has to be due to them learning another style. I know that there are ladies I used to enjoy dancing with who I know find "uncomfortable" in one way or another. I guess my dance has changed over time and so has theirs.

I don't entirely understand the way the frame is applied in AT so describing it is difficult. In my experience, it isn't a rigid frame - it is fluid. I've danced with some very experienced and very good followers who seem to maintain almost no tension in their arms, and found that rather disconcerting, but the majority seem to use a similar "matching tension" technique that you find in the best MJ followers. Having said that, while the frame appears to present all the time, the shape can change as can it's position - it's all very fluid! Sometimes I dance without left hand hold, sometimes I take my right arm away from my partner's back - Gavito used to dance with one hand in his pocket!

The subject of "leaning" is an interesting one. I believe there is a style of AT where the couple do physically lean on one another, sharing an axis, throughout the dance although I can't recall having seen it done. In both Salon and Milonguero styles (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html) there are times when you lean and times when you don't but, as far as I'm concerned, you spend most of the time in your own axis (i.e. not dependent on your partner for your balance). I think that the apparent "lean" comes from the fact that you take your axis over the balls of your feet rather than the middle of the foot or even the heel. The way I achieve this is to "feel" the crease of my ankles and positively shift my weight forward until my axis is on a vertical line above the balls of my feet. I keep my heels very much in contact with the floor and use them to aid my balance, which sounds like a contradiction but isn't when you do it!

Dancing close embrace relies on each partner bringing their axis forward over the balls of the feet. It is this that allows your upper bodies to remain in contact while your legs have room to move. Even so, there isn't a huge amount of space so most people allow the "frame" to open and close to suit the kind of movement they are making. The way I dance it is that each partner remains in their own balance - they don't rely on the other to keep them upright. If you are dancing close embrace and your partner loses their balance, even for an instant, you will be immediately aware of it as they will "block" your movement - I guess that would be equally true if you were "sharing an axis" throughout the whole dance, something I've never done.

There are some figures which rely on a shared axis - a positive lean against your partner such that you would fall over if they weren't there. Mainly it's the woman leaning on the guy, for obvious reasons. The most common use of this technique of leaning toward each other, "taking your partner out of her axis", is the volcada . It does not rely on a frame but the leader must keep his body "present" so that the follower has something to lean on: Julie's language can get quite colourfull if I lead her into a volcada with her left leg forward and expect her to just lean on my left arm - she needs me to keep my right shoulder and right side forward so she can lean against it and so avoid straining her lower back. As I'm actually stepping back with my right leg at this point it's easy to take your right side "away". (Gavito's "signature move" was a deep volcada without touching his partner with his arms at all - she just leant against him. It's kind of difficult; whenever I've tried Julie has just slid off my chest to one side or the other. She's a lady of infinite patience).

I'm not sure if that provided any answers! It certainly didn't to Whitebeard's conundrum.

spindr
31st-August-2006, 09:32 PM
Roundabout, carousel ... well, I was close. :blush: Like the sound of the Planeo :hug:
Have a look at the animations on www.metrotango.co.uk -- the one on the front page is a giro + planeo -- it's in the dreaded flash, but I can forgive it this once :)

The others are "under" tips.

SpinDr

Feelingpink
31st-August-2006, 09:57 PM
Have a look at the animations on www.metrotango.co.uk -- the one on the front page is a giro + planeo -- it's in the dreaded flash, but I can forgive it this once :)

The others are "under" tips.

SpinDrFab site! You sir, are a tango dancer and a gentleman. Thank you. :hug:

Whitebeard
31st-August-2006, 10:56 PM
I'm glad my post aroused some interest and gave rise to an interesting discussion, even though my problem remains unresolved.

There has been some misunderstanding regarding the leaning issue which I brought up. The lean I mean (sic) is not, of course, part of the normal hold but occurs, rather, as a move or part of a move. I'd noticed it in a number of online video clips and came to the conclusion it was a very characteristic and common element of AT. Perhaps that is not so. I figured that I might not find it easy to find an example to show you what I mean. However, at only the second try I found such a video at the following web address. The lady lean occurs at around 2min 37sec into the video.


http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3512858144322750155&q=argentine+tango

[I show the web address in full rather than hiding it as a link behind a word so that it will not be missed. I find it strange that such links are not highlighted by default in our posts.]


It's not the best, or worst, example I've seen but the lady (ladies in this case), as is typical, leans ramrod straight on her partner at between 30 and 40 degrees I would hazard, whilst he remains upright. Obviously there is a balance of forces here, or they would fall over, but it must be attained only by quite considerable muscular forces in both leader and follower. (Possibly those physical forces are not apparent to the participants in the intensity of the dance; just as I am rarely aware of my rusty and painful knees whilst on the dance floor.)

It was this stance which I saw the lady in question and her partner practising and I'm quite sure AT was the subject of their endeavours. (Interestingly enough, I saw the same leader practising AT with another follower last night. This time the lady doing those characteristic leg flicky movements. Don't know what they're called.)

I accept the point, made several times, that exagerated head movements are not a typical feature of AT. So maybe the lady only has AT experience with this particular leader and is just assuming this feature is part of AT as it is of Ballroom Tango. And then bringing it into her MJ to add a little extra drama. (If so, she sure succeeded.) Maybe an opportunity will arise for me talk over the issue with the lady, but with my defective hearing I cannot converse in any meaningful sense whilst music is playing. Then again, the lady herself must be aware of a connection problem with at least one partner and may resolve it in her own way.

What must please all of you is that even in these parts AT is entering into the local dance consciousness and attracting devotees. For my part, I want to get into Blues dance. More easily said than done.

Lory
31st-August-2006, 10:57 PM
Have a look at the animations on www.metrotango.co.uk -- the one on the front page is a giro + planeo -- it's in the dreaded flash, but I can forgive it this once :)



It would make someone a nice avatar! :nice:

Lynn
31st-August-2006, 11:06 PM
It would make someone a nice avatar! :nice:I need a new one!

JonD
1st-September-2006, 12:24 AM
The lady lean occurs at around 2min 37sec into the video.

Yes, that's a volcada. Actually, there isn't much tension or pressure at all. The lady is leaning on the guys chest and upper body with her chest rather than into his arms with her arms. The key is that, rather like in a dip, the lady must keep her back straight - as soon as she "collapses" from the waist everything gets heavy and difficult. Equally, if the guy takes his body away things can get rather muscular but then any complex move involving the follower being out of her axis is going to feel pretty awful if it goes wrong, in MJ or AT.

As a contrast to the video, I've attached a shot of Gavito doing his "signature" move (taken from a National Geographic feature (http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0312/sights_n_sounds/media1.html) that's worth a look). You can see that there is no great tension in his body although the follower is doing a little more work!


... those characteristic leg flicky movements. Don't know what they're called.. A "Gancho" (or "hook").

I wish I could offer some kind of useful advice on the connection issue. As I said, I have exactly the same issue with a couple of ladies. I danced with one of them tonight and was trying to work out where it was going wrong. I think the change is primarily in me - I think my lead is softer than it was and I'm looking for more subtle responses like checks, pauses and smaller movements. She likes to move quite fast and can "lean" into the lead which I now find a bit difficult to cope with. Having said all that, tonight we probably had our best dance together in a year!


For my part, I want to get into Blues dance.
I had a couple of lovely bluesey type dances with Sapphire tonight - yum scrum! I could do a lot more of that kind of dancing. She's gorgeous!

CeeCee
4th-April-2007, 10:26 AM
Hey Guys, this thread is supposed to be about the ups and downs of our passion. So why did it turn into a series of technical discussions? Tut tut, I'm surprised that a moderator didn't split it.

Okay so back to the original subject of Tango highs and lows, can a high turn into a low, or is it a question of perception?

There I was minding my own business enjoying the moment, when my new partner in the class approached. At around 5’ 8” early 20s with (sorry JonD) that gelled spiky hair thing going on, he has clearly devoted a lot of time to his body. His well defined torso was just a little distracting and nobody could fail to notice that his tight t-shirt was struggling to contain his bulging pectorals and rounded deltoids.

As we danced, his rippling biceps twitched under the palm of my hand. I raised my gaze from his chest to his face, his eyes were like iridescent pools and his long sweeping eyelashes were...

Wait a minute… I must be mistaken… I couldn’t believe it… surely not… oh no... he was… wearing…






Mascara!

Is a man still a real man if he's wearing mascara? I know what I think.

Feelingpink
4th-April-2007, 04:15 PM
{Dancing stuff...}
There I was minding my own business enjoying the moment, when my new partner in the class approached. At around 5’ 8” early 20s with (sorry JonD) that gelled spiky hair thing going on, he has clearly devoted a lot of time to his body. His well defined torso was just a little distracting and nobody could fail to notice that his tight t-shirt was struggling to contain his bulging pectorals and rounded deltoids.

As we danced, his rippling biceps twitched under the palm of my hand. I raised my gaze from his chest to his face, his eyes were like iridescent pools and his long sweeping eyelashes were...

Wait a minute… I must be mistaken… I couldn’t believe it… surely not… oh no... he was… wearing…






Mascara!

Is a man still a real man if he's wearing mascara? I know what I think.Dear CeeCee, why don't you get to know him a little better, then suggest that he have them dyed instead. That way you can both be happy. :wink:

DianaS
4th-April-2007, 08:27 PM
I have only just discovered this thread OMG why didn't some one tell me
Highs
I <blush> that OMG feeling when your dancing and you just fly and it doesn't stop... and then the music stops and you can't move, - away - apart, or any part of your body, you both hang in that space until the next track begins. Then the music stops again and dammit you think "this time I'll move away, I will" but your body just stays rested, glued and unmovable the music starts again. Pauses between each number seems an eternity

You realise you don't even know this guy and he's going to think your cheap, desperate or some kind of perve....
and then you realise that he's not moving either, and you think "he's desperate, cheap or some kind of perve"

but perhaps just perhaps this is just tango or maybe you have all just gone to heaven.

That's a good night

The lows
My legs don't meet in the middle there is no way I can get my knees and ankles together at the same time and My weight is always in the bloody centre. If I had knwon that MJ would ruin me I would never have learnt it! My toes turn in when I go backwards WHY?- and no matter how much I practice I can dissociate perfectly in the mirror but give me an ocho and its a smooth glide forwards and than a spin from the hips (MJ again!)

The best bits
Richard
He asked me a few weeks ago if I would practice with him, I ignored him for a bit cas I thought my guy may object, but as I'm not seeing my guy any more, (he's been busy for months and we seem to have drifted apart), we have had our first private lesson together.

He's gentle, disciplined and focused. Not too tall and not too short, I suspect he choose me for the same reasons. It's a pleasure to have someone to practice with, and even more of a bonus that he's a keen dancer with a friendly, outgoing personality.

What more can I say?
There's no better feeling than to be appreciated as a dancer, and at the moment that is the space that I'm in...

Whitebeard
6th-April-2007, 08:29 PM
Did anyone else see the hairy bikers tangoing on the streets of Buenos Aires in their total scruffiness ?

CeeCee
25th-April-2007, 01:56 PM
My Tango High


I’m in Love

This is no short term infatuation, this is the real thing, true love. We met on Sunday and bingo, I knew that we belonged together. Since then we’ve hardly been apart.
I guess it was bound to happen, after all this is Tango.


Strange though because we’ve met before so what was different about Sunday? Well, I don’t know and I don’t care, I'm not going to question it because this feeling is too good to waste.

We first met a few weeks ago at the dance festival in Olympia but there were no sparks then. We’ve been at the same dance venue twice a week since then and still nothing.

Then on Sunday there was the proverbial bolt of lightening. I was speechless, Cupid’s arrow struck my heart, as if we were meeting for the first time.

How can this happen?
How can shoes be so beautiful?
How can shoes be so comfortable?
How can a pair of shoes transform me?
How can a pair of shoes transform my dancing?

Yes I have to admit it, I’m in love with my new shoes.

I’m wearing them now and I’m off to pivot in front of the mirror again and again…


the journey continues in my new shoes...

DianaS
29th-April-2007, 05:17 PM
I'm a bit cross. Richard is getting most of the attention in our private lessons and I feel like I am not developing.
We have talked about it and he recognises that it's true. They are concentrating on developing the lead with the intention that I should then follow..
And of course I do
I'm wondering whether I should have some lessons on my own so that I have more focus on how my own development
I feel invisable- Help!

Feelingpink
29th-April-2007, 06:08 PM
Diana, have you and Richard talked to the teacher about this? If you're paying for half of the lesson, then you need to feel that you are benefitting as well - more than being a kind of demo. You may not want to tell the teacher that if you aren't happy, you might have your own lessons ... as that course would be to their benefit. Perhaps Richard could learn a new technique (or whatever), then you could be taught perhaps some ornamentation and then the practice could involve both of you using what you have just learned?

Hope you sort it out. :hug:

Caro
1st-November-2007, 11:01 PM
well... after a 6 month (:blush:) break, I went back to tango tonight.

And I had a good night.

On my first dance as I missed a cross (:blush:) I was told I had been doing too much swing (can one do too much swing really?)...
But it improved then... and I had some lovely connected dances... :awe:

I'm back at tango I think. :nice:

Lynn
2nd-November-2007, 12:32 AM
well... after a 6 month (:blush:) break, I went back to tango tonight. I had an 8 month break and went back this week too.

And I feel I've forgotten so much, after 2 1/2 hours of classes I'd had enough and didn't have a dance, but yes, it was starting to come back.

Its good to be back isn't it?

rubyred
2nd-November-2007, 01:30 AM
well... after a 6 month (:blush:) break, I went back to tango tonight.

And I had a good night.

I'm back at tango I think. :nice:

Welcome back Caro :hug: I have recently returned also and it feels good, my brain hurts but its so worth it, at least you feel that you are alive. :flower: