Grace period for new starters?

[David Bailey]

A couple of recent new starters (examples here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8488) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=225086#post225086)) have had, shall we say, a rocky ride with their first posts.

I'm not going to defend these people, nor am I taking any position on the arguments.

However, both these posters are, I think, people who have interesting knowledge, and who could make a contribution to the forum under some circumstances, given some smoothing out of rough edges. For example, I for one never knew where the name "Gotan" came from.

But, they never really got the opportunity to smooth out, and their welcome was less-than-civil. Again, not defending them, just stating what I thought at the time.

So, what do people think of a "grace" period for new starters, either official or not?

For example, something like this: for the first 100 posts, a poster could not be given negative rep, and should be given more lattitude in terms of public responses to controversial or angry posts? And the first response to any first post should always start with "Welcome to the forum"?

I would rather we be too welcoming, and occasionally have to bite our collective tongues, than be unfriendly, and put off other lurkers from posting.

Comments?

[ducasi]

*bites tongue*

[WittyBird]

Comments?

So........

If someone comes up to you in a pub and punches you in the face, what do you do? Smile sweetly and say 'Thank you' I think not.

I could ramble for ages, but I will leave that to someone with more time, inclination and patience.:rolleyes:

[ducasi]

OK, to answer the question...

While I agree with the sentiment, I don't think the no-negative rep idea would be

possible within the software
advisable due to the risk of abuse
likely to make a damn bit of a difference.

And if you can't -ve rep them, there's even a possibility they may get even more flames as people seek an outlet for their hostility.

[fletch]

I seem to remember I had a rocky start, but we won't go there :whistle: :wink:


:devil:

[David Franklin]

So........

If someone comes up to you in a pub and punches you in the face, what do you do? Smile sweetly and say 'Thank you'
http://www.itsvery.net/X2/Wolverine.jpg

But of course - doesn't everyone?

[CJ]

People bring what they bring...

Some have a "hello, I'm thinking of going to X venue, this is my first post, what's all this about" vibe.

Some have a "in reply to certain stuff, up the lot of you, you're all tossers" vibe

Some bring a "I've joined to make a point, so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!!" vibe

Some have a "I've been dancing ages but only recently been told about a bunch of loonies that hang together here.." thing going on

Others a "I've only been dancing 2 weeks but already know everything" vibe.

How we, as a forum, deals with that is generally amicably. I haven't witnessed any bullying (I think, although Fletch did get it tough from a couple of people) and would hope that I would step in if I saw it happening.

How we, as individuals, deal with it varies more.:rolleyes: But then, that's the joy of the forum.

Some newbies have irked me, most not. We each join, learn the civilities and subtleties of this particular forum and slowly put our slippers under the table...

Rules for newbies is nonsense. I'm not saying it's like a bike club and you have to "earn" your colours. (DO NOT ask about red wings!!!:rofl: ) We each have to fit in before we can stretch the box:D

[WittyBird]

People bring what they bring...{snip loads of good stuff }

Have some rep for being a clever CJ today :D

[David Bailey]

So........

If someone comes up to you in a pub and punches you in the face, what do you do? Smile sweetly and say 'Thank you' I think not.
Well, good thing I'm not a Christian then :na:

I'm familiar with the "Forum as really big pub conversation" analogy - Gadget and I originated it for the FAQ. But that's not a correct analogy. I mean, it's not as if anyone's issuing death threats, they're just expressing a point of view.

A more relevant analogy would be if a stranger comes up to you when you're chatting with some mates, he interrupts your conversation and loudly disagrees with you. The stranger may well be rude, he may be drunk, or he may not understand the conventions of pub discussion, or he may have a valid point to make. If you all then tell him to Foxtrot Oscarm surround him, glower at him and yell to the bartender to take his drink away, what sort of impression of the group is given to onlookers?


I seem to remember I had a rocky start, but we won't go there :whistle:
I was actually thinking of you too - you started off as a reprobate and got your fair share of abuse, but you stuck with it. I'm not sure how many others would have such strength of character.

What we say online is kept there - forever. And negative comments put people off contributing, keep them lurking, and reduce the forum to a bunch of people talking only to their close friends, posting only in-jokes, thanking each other for dances last week, and voting on interminable "Who's going to XXX this weekend" polls... :innocent:

I'm not saying we should have a particular system - I suggested some ideas, but I don't know what an answer is. I'm saying I get an occasional sense of "ganging up on the newbie" reading some threads.

(Hey, I managed to last 1 day of posts without creating controversy! Yay me! :grin: )

[CJ]

A more relevant analogy would be if a stranger comes up to you when you're chatting with some mates, he interrupts your conversation and loudly disagrees with you. The stranger may well be rude, he may be drunk, or he may not understand the conventions of pub discussion, or he may have a valid point to make. If you all then tell him to Foxtrot Oscarm surround him, glower at him and yell to the bartender to take his drink away, what sort of impression of the group is given to onlookers?


He will soon learn.:D
I'm not talking about beating him up, but about telling him, in no uncertain terms, that his behaviour is not acceptable here.


A more relevant analogy would be if a stranger comes up to you when you're chatting with some mates, he interrupts your conversation and loudly disagrees with you. The stranger may well be rude, he may be drunk, or he may not understand the conventions of pub discussion, or he may have a valid point to make. If you all then tell him to Foxtrot Oscarm surround him, glower at him and yell to the bartender to take his drink away, what sort of impression of the group is given to onlookers?


My guess is it tells them that rude behaviour isn't accepted here.

(You've been back posting for over a day now: can you please make a point?:wink: These people who are controversial for controversy's sake!!!:rolleyes: )

[David Bailey]

He will soon learn.:D
And we will not know whether he had a valid point of view.

And because it's the internet and not a pub, any other newcomer reading that in 6 months time will also get the impression that this is not a friendly crowd.


My guess is it tells them that rude behaviour isn't accepted here.
And it also tells everyone else that the forum is less welcoming than it could be.


(You've been back posting for over a day now: can you please make a point?
Why change the habits of 5,025 posts? :confused:


These people who are controversial for controversy's sake!!!:rolleyes: )
Seriously, I'm trying to make a point about group behaviour, and how it appears to those outside the group. I was in lurker mode at the time, and I think that gave me a sense of detachment which maybe wasn't shared by most regular posters.

Of course, I could be wrong :eek:

[El Salsero Gringo]

And because it's the internet and not a pub, any other newcomer reading that in 6 months time will also get the impression that this is not a friendly crowd.It's a friendly crowd - if you're a friend. If you want to give the impression that everyone just loves everyone else here I say that would be false and misleading.
And it also tells everyone else that the forum is less welcoming than it could be.Sorry always to be the one to challenge the assumptions that people sneakily hide in their rhetoric, but can you explain *why* the forum has to be as welcoming as it can be? I'd rather it was as interesting as it can be. If that means a few brick-bats fly backwards and forwards then so much the better.

[David Franklin]

IA more relevant analogy would be if a stranger comes up to you when you're chatting with some mates, he interrupts your conversation and loudly disagrees with you. The stranger may well be rude, he may be drunk, or he may not understand the conventions of pub discussion, or he may have a valid point to make. If you all then tell him to Foxtrot Oscarm surround him, glower at him and yell to the bartender to take his drink away, what sort of impression of the group is given to onlookers?To be honest, if someone behaved as jj did at a pub, I think he'd get a lot tougher reception than he recieved here. I've certainly seen people asked to leave for saying a lot less.


What we say online is kept there - forever. And negative comments put people off contributing, keep them lurking, and reduce the forum to a bunch of people talking only to their close friends, posting only in-jokes, thanking each other for dances last week, and voting on interminable "Who's going to XXX this weekend" polls... :innocent: In the case of the teacher, you might have a point, in that some people seemed to "jump on him" from the word go. I suspect there was a lot of stuff going on "behind the scenes" there though.

But in the case of the DJing thread, I think people actually did accommodate differing points of view - they might have disagreed, but they were reasonably polite about it. It was only when the comments about "ignorant and anal posters" started that things got messy. I don't have a problem if a lurker deduces we frown on such behaviour.

[David Bailey]

Sorry always to be the one to challenge the assumptions that people sneakily hide in their rhetoric, but can you explain *why* the forum has to be as welcoming as it can be?
For the same reason that Ceroc classes and venues have to be as welcoming as they can be - to continue, to be viable, and ideally to grow. No-one is forced to join Ceroc, and no-one is forced to post - they need to be invited and welcomed and encouraged.

There's a critical mass of contributors which are needed to make any forum valuable - why else would all us Southern Nancies post on the Scotland forum, except for the fact that it's got a lot of interesting comments on it?

And if new posters are put off, the quality of posts IMO is reduced.


I'd rather it was as interesting as it can be. If that means a few brick-bats fly backwards and forwards then so much the better.
Hmmm, you think this forum has been particularly interesting recently then? :whistle:

[WittyBird]

Hmmm, you think this forum has been particularly interesting recently then? :whistle:

It was for the last month or so, but over the last 24 hours seems to have gone downhill rapid :D :D

[El Salsero Gringo]

For the same reason that Ceroc classes and venues have to be as welcoming as they can be - to continue, to be viable, and ideally to grow. No-one is forced to join Ceroc, and no-one is forced to post - they need to be invited and welcomed and encouraged.When people come to a ceroc class, we welcome and encourage them to do the beginners class, dance with the teacher and the taxi dancers, make a few friends, and come back the next week. We don't tolerate them riding in on a Harley, spray painting the walls the floor and the DJ, attempting to disembowel the teacher with a machete or setting fire to the building ("I'm new to Ceroc and this is my first night - I didn't realise that it wouldn't be appreciated.") If they tried it, they'd probably be asked to leave.

Giving some kind of amnesty to anyone new to say whatever the hell they like is like the education policy of the progressive 1970's education authorities. ("Allow children to discover numbers by themselves... spelling doesn't matter... there's no such thing as 'wrong', only 'differently right').


And if new posters are put off, the quality of posts IMO is reduced.Supposition of the purest kind. Perhaps we do more to discourage flame-baiters, trollers and spammers by occasionally taking a robust line when newcomers burst in, all guns blazing? And in any case, it's not like it doesn't ever go down well: I got my first 40 rep points for taking to task one particularly tiresome posting from a Forum regular.

[David Bailey]

We don't tolerate them ... attempting to disembowel the teacher with a machete
Well, surely it depends if the teacher is trying to teach the Archie Spin or Tunnel? I mean, machete-attacking would be the least I'd expect under those circumstances - come on, be reasonable. :rolleyes:

And what's wrong with Harleys? :)


Giving some kind of amnesty to anyone new to say whatever the hell they like is like the education policy of the progressive 1970's education authorities. ("Allow children to discover numbers by themselves... spelling doesn't matter... there's no such thing as 'wrong', only 'differently right').
Hardly my position - I just think a structured welcoming process combined with a "welcoming etiquette" wouldn't kill us. For example, even if you disagree violently with the poster, I think you should say "Firstly, welcome to the forum" as part of the reply to someone's first post.


Supposition of the purest kind.
Perhaps we do more to discourage flame-baiters, trollers and spammers by occasionally taking a robust line when newcomers burst in, all guns blazing?
Hmmm... there's no easy way to prove what does and doesn't work in terms of encouraging newbies versus discouraging spammers. Even with full log access, I don't think there's any way to judge. Like all marketing, 50% works, 50% is wasted - but you can't tell which is which.

Personally, I could live with a few more spammers (which the lovely moderators will soon sort out anyway) if it made life more interesting by encouraging more debate. A bit of turning-the-other-cheek for a post or two just to provide the benefit of the doubt is a fairly low price to pay, if the reward is in creating more debate.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Hardly my position - I just think a structured welcoming process combined with a "welcoming etiquette" wouldn't kill us. For example, even if you disagree violently with the poster, I think you should say "Firstly, welcome to the forum" as part of the reply to someone's first post.Something like this you mean?

"Firstly, welcome to the Forum. Secondly, you're talking a load of bollox. I disagree violently with what you wrote and unless you naff off (and don't come back until you've something sensible to say and you've checked that you have my permission first) I'm going to hunt you down to your home venue (thank you for listing it in your profile) then deal with you like the mangy dog that you are. Thirdly, I don't believe you exist anyway."

I'm not convinced that's entirely the right approach but I can't put my finger on what needs changing...

[WittyBird]

Something like this you mean?

"Firstly, welcome to the Forum. Secondly, you're talking a load of bollox. I disagree violently with what you wrote and unless you naff off (and don't come back until you've something sensible to say and you've checked that you have my permission first) I'm going to hunt you down to your home venue (thank you for listing it in your profile) then deal with you like the mangy dog that you are. Thirdly, I don't believe you exist anyway."

You know, I do believe that might just work!

I wish I could rep you LMFAO :rofl:

[David Bailey]

I'm not convinced that's entirely the right approach but I can't put my finger on what needs changing...
Well, the third sentence has a Fogg index of about 70, so clearly that's Evil.

And that sounds spookily like the welcome given to Fletch, so there's clearly some plagiarism going on.

[David Franklin]

I'm really not convinced newcomers here get given a hard time for their opinions, even if they go against the status quo. What can happen is they find themselves greatly outnumbered by dissenters, and they get frustrated that they can't convince them otherwise. But you know what, that's life! I think it would be worse if we were all PMing each other saying "poor NewbyDancer, hasn't got a clue! Still, let's not tell him he's talking rubbish, we wouldn't want to be unfriendly." Not to mention the knock on effect when Newby2 comes and joins in, having decided from the lack of dissent that most people agree with NewbyDancer.

It would be a problem if we didn't explain why we disagree, or pay a reasonable amount of respect to a newcomer's arguments. If the attitude to newcomers is "you wouldn't say that if you really understood dance", then the group opinions fossilise and you end up with rec.arts.dance. But I don't think that actually happens here too often.

[MartinHarper]

My guess is it tells them that rude behaviour isn't accepted here.

So, being rude to newcomers tells people that being rude is unacceptable?

[El Salsero Gringo]

If the attitude to newcomers is "you wouldn't say that if you really understood dance", then the group opinions fossilise and you end up with rec.arts.dance. But I don't think that actually happens here too often.Can I respectfully remind you of that next time you quote rec.arts.dance at me?

[Ghost]

Slightly different slant on David's idea.

The best Bouncers do not go wading into bar brawls, skillfully beating people up and drag them outside so they can be barred and possibly arrested. The Best Bouncers mix with the crowd and keep things running smoothly. If someone's beginnning to get out of hand, a gentle word then, is a lot more effective than a roundhouse kick in half an hour's time. But.... it takes a lot of skill to be that good. Plus there's the matter of authority. Looking at a lot of the take it outside threads, I noticed warning signs several posts before it got moved. Even then, there are people trying to calm things down, but sadly they were ignored. My favourite quote on the whole Fourm is from Clive Long
Enough already.

I retract everything I said or wrote. Ever. :flower: . :worthy:

I think a grace period is a good idea. On a different Forums posters are often advised to just lurk for a month or so to get the feel of the place.

I think it would also help if the moderators were to quietly pm newbies with "You know, you're going a bit far. Or you might want to take some time to re-think this". The newbies can of choose not to and the kindly Forumites will act accoridngly.

As to why it matters. The newbies we offend may have the Hoy Grail (You step back on the left foot because). And because simply it matters. People have punched me in the face for a variety of reasons (well tried to anyway). I've never needed to beat them senseless.

Be Well,
Christopher

[David Franklin]

Can I respectfully remind you of that next time you quote rec.arts.dance at me?You can do whatever you like. However the rec.arts.dance FAQ predates the "collapse" of rec.arts.dance , and I don't think I've met anyone who's read it without thinking it had a lot of useful information from people who knew what they were talking about. It seems amazing now, but back in the 90s, people actually talked about dance on r.a.d.


I think various factors contributed to the demise. Many many usenet forums haven't handled the transition to a WWW internet too well. One of the highlights of rec.arts.dance were the postings from top professionals (Robert/Deborah, Lance, Gary etc.), but over time I think it stopped feeling "private", and then many of the dance professionals stopped giving quite such candid posts. Certainly the "my understanding of dance is perfect and you are all idiots" personalities on rec.arts.dance didn't help. But what really killed rec.arts.dance was the 2000 US election and subsequent events. For several years a "OT: Political" thread completely dominated the forum and any attempts to talk dance went by the wayside. By the end of it, the only regulars still standing were the ones who whose method of "argument" resembled saturation bombing. They, um, don't handle newbies well.

[David Bailey]

Can I respectfully..
Sorry, I didn't read any more, I was too busy :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously, the best answer to rudeness is always politeness - that doesn't mean you have to be a pushover, you can still be firm with courtesy. Giving a newbie a larger benefit-of-the-doubt allowance (they may genuinely be unaware of newsgroup conventions, or may genuinely be poor at expressing themselves) just seems like good sense to me.

If nothing else, if they're genuinely wastes of space, you're giving them enough rope to hand themselves with... :whistle:

(And - this is the good bit - you get a nice warm glow from holding the moral high ground, so you can feel all smug and superior. Which is nice. :innocent: )

[TheTramp]

Personally, I think that we are generally very welcoming to almost every person who joins the forum.

Most of the ones that we aren't, IMHO, totally deserve the type of welcome that they get. There are a couple of people I can think of who did get more flak than they deserved, but they are in the minority. I can think of a couple who didn't get anywhere near the amound of flak that they deserved.....

[El Salsero Gringo]

Seriously, the best answer to rudeness is always politeness...nah, humour, surely?
Giving a newbie a larger benefit-of-the-doubt allowance (they may genuinely be unaware of newsgroup conventions, or may genuinely be poor at expressing themselves) just seems like good sense to me.Do you really really think we don't do this already, by common consent? (We're still making those allowances for some members who've been on the Forum longer than I have.)

Perhaps one of the worst things for someone making their first few postings (particularly if it's more than just the 'I'm new - where should I dance this weekend?') would be to be ignored. If someone makes a firm statement about something, the most flattering response is to give it serious consideration and put some thought into a reply. Even (especially) if you disagree with what they said.

[TheTramp]

If someone makes a firm statement about something, the most flattering response is to give it serious consideration and put some thought into a reply. Even (especially) if you disagree with what they said.

I think that this is true. Depending on certain things....

One forumite who joined recently, may have had interesting things to say. And I may have disagreed with some things. And even may have agreed with others.

However I never really actually got around to reading the points that he was making. I objected so much to the way he was making the points, that what he was actually saying was lost.

In terms of the 'pub' conversation, I'd equate him to the loud, drunk, boorish lout, who you'd just wish would go away, and have no interest in actually listening to.

[David Franklin]

I think that this is true. Depending on certain things....

One forumite who joined recently, may have had interesting things to say. And I may have disagreed with some things. And even may have agreed with others.

However I never really actually got around to reading the points that he was making. I objected so much to the way he was making the points, that what he was actually saying was lost.Assuming this is who I think it is, I'd say even though probably 80% of the forum disagreed with him, they were pretty polite about doing so. One person, while polite, rubbed him up the wrong way, and that was when things escalated. But it was only when his direct insults started that he started getting flak from all sides.

A couple of points from this. The person who initially wound him up? To be honest, they often wind me up as well. So I don't believe it was a case of "have a go at the newbie" at all - just someone's normal posting style. And as far as "treat rudeness with politeness", I did see people try to politely disagree with him, and they got as much, if not more abuse, than anyone else.

If we're using the bouncer analogy, I feel compelled to paraphrase from Roadhouse:

If someone comes up to you with an attitude, be nice ... until the time comes, to not be nice.
Like Trampy, I think the guy in question had some interesting points. But in the end, the sheer volume of abuse he sent towards anyone who disagreed with him outweighed everythng else. I can't say I was sorry to see him go.

[David Bailey]

If we're using the bouncer analogy, I feel compelled to paraphrase from Roadhouse:
Now that was a trashy movie - I saw it on TV again recently, I was amazed how much sex was in it, I remembered it as mainly an action flick :confused:


Do you really really think we don't do this already, by common consent?
Yes, I really do think that some people (not "we" but "some of we" :) ) don't do this - otherwise I wouldn't have started this thread, I'd be talking about the weather, or this weekend's dancing or something...

[Ghost]

Ah Roadhouse :cool:

Remember Swayze gets rid of the hothead bouncer and tries to teach the remaining bouncers to solve problems before they get started.

Personally I feel if someone visibly in authority had pmed during the thread w're all tap-dancing around (I'm probably thinking of the wrong one anyway :blush: ) then this could possibly have been avoided. A simple "Look this is just the way they are. Take a few days and chill out. Then come back and make your points. The Forum isn't going anywhere".

But there is a time "to not be nice" :angry: When the guy pulls a knife in Roadhouse the rules change.

People who just want to flame and troll should just get "bad posted" and kicked out.

People who have a different opinion however :clap:.

Be Well,
Christopher

[David Franklin]

Now that was a trashy movie - I saw it on TV again recently, I was amazed how much sex was in it, I remembered it as mainly an action flickSex? I thought that was just outtake footage they'd stolen from Dirty Dancing! Sam Elliot was cool, though.


Remember Swayze gets rid of the hothead bouncer and tries to teach the remaining bouncers to solve problems before they get started. I had not forgotten (it's not the easiest diatribe to quote on a family forum).


Personally I feel if someone visibly in authority had pmed during the thread w're all tap-dancing around (I'm probably thinking of the wrong one anyway :blush: ) then this could possibly have been avoided. A simple "Look this is just the way they are. Take a few days and chill out. Then come back and make your points. The Forum isn't going anywhere". Possibly, and I would actually agree with you that it would have been a good idea. But other people did actually say (paraphrased): "look, insults aren't the way to win arguments", and it didn't exactly help. So if it had made a difference, it would only have been because the moderators can back it up with "... or else".


People who just want to flame and troll should just get "bad posted" and kicked out. "A certain DJ" was unique; in many of his posts I couldn't tell if he really meant what he said or was being intentionally outrageous to get a reaction (i.e. trolling in the pure sense). I still can't decide, to be honest; anyone can have a bad attitude, but the way he kept complaining about behaviour in other posters that was far more obvious in his own postings seemed too exact to be anything but an intentional attempt to wind people up.

[Zuhal]

My perspective.

I used to post but now I just lurk. Why do I not post?


It is quite difficult to be pithy, cogent, amusing and relevant.
I have examples of posts made by me (non face) recieve no response or are misunderstood (See point 1)
Same point raised later by a face is feted and discussed. There is a natural conclusion
The atmosphere is much more friendly than certain Salsa forum but understanding the mores is still an art. Perfecting that art would be timeconsuming.


I appreciate those that take so much time to analyse and explain stuff. Their process of learning Tango for example.

I would like to contribute more but to be honest I do NOT feel welcome.:blush:

Zuhal

[Ghost]

I had not forgotten (it's not the easiest diatribe to quote on a family forum). True enough :cheers: . I mentioned it mainly for the benefit of people who haven't seen it.


Possibly, and I would actually agree with you that it would have been a good idea. But other people did actually say (paraphrased): "look, insults aren't the way to win arguments", and it didn't exactly help. So if it had made a difference, it would only have been because the moderators can back it up with "... or else (my emphasis)". Cool - that's actually my point. Look at Taz on the tango thread. She gets called a bloke, her friends are insulted, but she still hangs in there being reaonable (and having seen Taz in the Real World when someone's upset WittyBird I have to applaud her on both counts :clap: ). But still the carnage continued. So I agree, there does need to be an authority to back it up.


I still can't decide, to be honest; Fair enough. If the Forum as a whole is going "this is unreasonable" then I'd argue the person needs to reconsider the way they're expressing themselves. I once got a post sent back to me by a moderator on another Forum along the lines of "I know exacly what you mean and that's fine. But, you can also read it this way which will cause ructions". I hadn't seen the other side, but on doing so happily withdrew the post. If someone tells the Moderators to "get lost, I'll post how I want to" - well then they're pretty clearly stating their intentions.

The other thing that's bothered me for quiite a while now is I wonder how many useful things simply aren't posted. While I agree that Forumites are generally friendly, I'd add the clause "as long as you agree with everyone else". Look at the Intermediate threads. Gadget and I started about a third of them this year - surely there's more people with intermediate queries / thoughts / suggestions? Likewise the recent push becomes a shove thread - the contributors are all quite able to take knocks and basicially be told they're wrong. I wonder if more people would contribute if it was perhaps a bit more gentle? The thread I started asking teachers and taxis basically what behaviour did they want / not want in class, I thought was a gift. It was on the Beginners thread, an easy chance to say "please don't rush ahead or chat while I'm giving instructions" etc. It got a single (very well thought out :flower: ) reply. :confused:

Be Well,
Christopher
EDIT = cross post. Ok it's interesting that Zuhal seems to agree with the sentiments of my last paragraph.

[ducasi]

Hey Zuhal, thanks for posting this... Interesting use of the concept of a "face". I wonder what makes a face a face. Am I a face?

I've found that sometimes my carefully thought-out posts go ignored until the ideas in it are re-stated by someone else.

Sometimes it's simply in how you express yourself, rather than who you are.

I'd like everyone apart from flamers, trollers and spammers to feel welcome. :)

[fletch]

Personally, I think that we are very welcoming to every person who joins the forum.




mmmmmmmmm

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:whistle: :wink:

[Ghost]

mmmmmmmmm

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:whistle: :wink:
........eventually :blush:

[ducasi]

Yes, I really do think that some people (not "we" but "some of we" :) ) don't do this ... Then the problem is with these "some people". What can we do to fix this problem?

Saying that "we" should all be more tolerant and welcoming has resulted in a load of posts all saying much the same thing: "we are!!"

Is it time for the mods to get heavy? Is it time to name and shame?

[El Salsero Gringo]

My perspective.

I used to post but now I just lurk. Why do I not post?
{snip}
I would like to contribute more but to be honest I do NOT feel welcome.:blush:

ZuhalBad that you don't feel welcome. Good that you said so though.

As Ducasi asks, what makes a 'face' btw? Anyone can get well-known just by posting a lot (I should know.)

[Ghost]

Then the problem is with these "some people". What can we do to fix this problem?

Saying that "we" should all be more tolerant and welcoming has resulted in a load of posts all saying much the same thing: "we are!!"

Is it time for the mods to get heavy? Is it time to name and shame?
*goes and sits next to LMC and Dizzy. Waits expectantly*

[David Franklin]

... I still can't decide, to be honest;
Fair enough. If the Forum as a whole is going "this is unreasonable" then I'd argue the person needs to reconsider the way they're expressing themselves.You misunderstand me - I just meant I can't decide whether JJ was actively trolling as opposed to having a bad attitude. In either case, I'm fairly clear he is no loss.


The other thing that's bothered me for quiite a while now is I wonder how many useful things simply aren't posted. While I agree that Forumites are generally friendly, I'd add the clause "as long as you agree with everyone else". Look at the Intermediate threads. Gadget and I started about a third of them this year - surely there's more people with intermediate queries / thoughts / suggestions? I'd say this is largely because a lot of this stuff has been gone over before. A lot of people just don't have the energy to revisit the arguments.

I really don't think it's true that you have to agree with everyone else - to be honest, I don't agree with much that gets posted here. What is true is that if you believe 'X' and 90% of people believe 'Y', then you will either need some very good arguments or, as Zahul says, be some kind of "face", before you have a hope of people listening to you. Of course, this is aggravated by the fact that the 10% of regulars who agree with you know they're going to get "out posted", so they don't even bother and the imbalance looks even bigger than it is.

In a lot of ways, the "names" don't get enough respect. There are a lot of teachers who've decided not to "get involved" with the forum. Part of it is a lack of time, part of it the general sniping. But particularly amongst those who've visited and moved on, a big part is the whole "democratic" nature of the forum. You can be the best teacher in the country on a particular topic, but it doesn't help much on the forum if you're arguing with someone who is eloquent, persuasive, and 100% wrong. Over the internet, it is often very hard to settle arguments about dance one way or the other.

[Conversely, you can end up with teachers who talk absolute rubbish and everyone agrees "because they're a teacher". That's a mess too. But the lack of teachers on this forum really stands out if you frequent other dance forums, and I think it's a shame].

[El Salsero Gringo]

In a lot of ways, the "names" don't get enough respect. There are a lot of teachers who've decided not to "get involved" with the forum. Part of it is a lack of time, part of it the general sniping. But particularly amongst those who've visited and moved on, a big part is the whole "democratic" nature of the forum. You can be the best teacher in the country on a particular topic, but it doesn't help much on the forum if you're arguing with someone who is eloquent, persuasive, and 100% wrong. Over the internet, it is often very hard to settle arguments about dance one way or the other.

[Conversely, you can end up with teachers who talk absolute rubbish and everyone agrees "because they're a teacher". That's a mess too. But the lack of teachers on this forum really stands out if you frequent other dance forums, and I think it's a shame].I put this down to two things: firstly, Ceroc deliberately does not encourage perfectionism and technique-ism in its classes. There's very much a 'if it works for you, it's fine' attitude because it is in the end meant to be fun. (That goes along with the no rule book, no medals, no blue/green/gold membership cards.)
If there's no 'hierarchy of respect' generated from the centre, it's very hard for one to get built organically.

Secondly, Ceroc is quite tight-lipped about the dancing. There's no official website that lists the moves etc. Again, without needing any kind of conspiracy, I suggest that this attitude rubs off.

However: I believe this to be a good thing: I think it's a big mistake to try to learn to dance from a Forum. I think having CTA members jump in every time someone made a technical point about dance would put an end to any kind of discussion. It would become a question-and-answer forum, rather than a place to kick around ideas. It would be like having thirty teachers in the school playground. Sometimes the children need the experience of thinking things through for themselves.

I don't think this is the right place "to settle arguments about dance one way or the other", merely a place to find out what other people think and have the strength of your own ideas tested. I like to hear what you, David, - and DavidB, and Gadget, and DavidJames, and everyone else - have to say about dance questions. Then I can make up my own mind. I don't need the law laying down by anyone.

As for those of us who are "eloquent, persuasive, and 100% wrong": who gives a toss?

[Stuart M]

I put this down to two things: firstly, Ceroc deliberately does not encourage perfectionism and technique-ism in its classes. There's very much a 'if it works for you, it's fine' attitude because it is in the end meant to be fun. (That goes along with the no rule book, no medals, no blue/green/gold membership cards.)
If there's no 'hierarchy of respect' generated from the centre, it's very hard for one to get built organically.

Secondly, Ceroc is quite tight-lipped about the dancing. There's no official website that lists the moves etc. Again, without needing any kind of conspiracy, I suggest that this attitude rubs off.

However: I believe this to be a good thing: I think it's a big mistake to try to learn to dance from a Forum. I think having CTA members jump in every time someone made a technical point about dance would put an end to any kind of discussion. It would become a question-and-answer forum, rather than a place to kick around ideas. It would be like having thirty teachers in the school playground. Sometimes the children need the experience of thinking things through for themselves.

:yeah:

Given that several arguments on the Forum (most, possibly?) are about DJing, amongst DJs (or those who think they know about the subject), maybe not having too many teachers around is a good thing?

[David Franklin]

I don't think this is the right place "to settle arguments about dance one way or the other", merely a place to find out what other people think and have the strength of your own ideas tested. I didn't really phrase that very well. I'm not talking about definitive answers, but more the kind of situation where person A says "the way to make this move work is to do X" and person B says "I think it's impossible if you do X, you need to do Y". To which person A says "that's just because you're not doing X right". Without at least seeing what each other are doing, you're left with an impasse. One reason some arguments go to physics is because sometimes a way out is to say "it is physically impossible to do this using X".


As for those of us who are "eloquent, persuasive, and 100% wrong": who gives a toss?The teacher who wants to get his point across. If a teacher says "the most comfortable way to lead this move is X", and someone else says "no, the most comfortable way is Y", often the person who "wins" the argument is the one who's prepared to spend most time on it. Given the teacher doesn't actually stand to benefit much from the exchange, it doesn't take long before they decide it's just not worth it.

[David Bailey]

Then the problem is with these "some people". What can we do to fix this problem?
Nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Or, maybe, just recognise that not all of us are always as fluffy and loving and inclusive and welcoming as we think we are?

(except for me, of course)


Saying that "we" should all be more tolerant and welcoming has resulted in a load of posts all saying much the same thing: "we are!!"
Yes, that wasn't at all predictable, was it? :rolleyes:
I'm reminded of the post a while back (MartinHarper) saying something like


Of course we're friendly and welcoming, and if you say otherwise we'll rip your arms off!

I'm also reminded of the quote from DavidB (here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=133626#post133626)) that a clique is always invisible from the inside.

However, this is straying slightly off-topic (we probably need a "Lurking / Posting" thread or something)...


You can be the best teacher in the country on a particular topic, but it doesn't help much on the forum if you're arguing with someone who is eloquent, persuasive, and 100% wrong.
Hmmm... perhaps I'm proving the point, but surely if you can't express yourself with clarity and persuasiveness, you're missing something as a teacher? :devil:

[Ghost]

Nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure. Oh I like this - have rep

Hmmm... perhaps I'm proving the point, but surely if you can't express yourself with clarity and persuasiveness, you're missing something as a teacher? :devil: Excellent points. Now ESG and I will argue over something for say 10 posts and then agree that we're right. A lot of people won't bother to even read up to your post. And that doesn't even take into account our incredible use of physics :wink:

But yeah I kind of agree. in general a good teacher will go "It's this" and wise students will try it out.

Be Well,
Christopher

[LMC]

Saying that "we" should all be more tolerant and welcoming has resulted in a load of posts all saying much the same thing: "we are!!"
Brian: You are all individuals!
Crowd: YES, we are all individuals!
Small voice from back: I'm not!

Grace period? - Nah, if someone comes in with all guns blazing/aggressive then they deserve to be stomped on. The pub analogy is a good one: any 'crowd' would act adversely to an unknown person just wading into the conversation telling someone they were stupid/evil without even saying "Hello" first.

It probably comes back to the age old problem of 90%+ communication being non-verbal. Whereas in type, you can't see people's expressions/body language and smileys just sometimes aren't enough.

I think one of the most discouraging things for newbies can be the "We've had that discussion x million times before" response - it's good to post previous threads on the subject for someone who's asking for help, but perhaps it's "how" you post that response that matters.

This pot sez "Engage brain before putting fingers into gear"

[David Franklin]

Hmmm... perhaps I'm proving the point, but surely if you can't express yourself with clarity and persuasiveness, you're missing something as a teacher? :devil:You have a point, but my preference has always been for the teacher who is correct but uninspiring over the teacher who is wrong but persuasive.

[Stuart M]

I think one of the most discouraging things for newbies can be the "We've had that discussion x million times before" response - it's good to post previous threads on the subject for someone who's asking for help, but perhaps it's "how" you post that response that matters.
Works both ways though - given the lack of an adequate "Related threads" system it's discouraging for people to repeat themselves. I disgorged most of my sensible knowledge about dancing within a month of joining the Forum, and that was "ask Franck". I agree though an archive link should be presented in a positive fashion.

I propose such posts should be in the following format:

"Previous responses on this topic can be found here.

Disclaimer: none of the views, techniques, or humour expressed in this previous thread should be considered accurate, funny, or even the current opinion of the individuals concerned. This post should not discourage you from posting, it's a safe bet you'll make far more sense than anyone on the old thread.

We take no responsibility for any damage caused to your dance technique, taste, or sanity caused as a result of reading old posts. If they reinforce your impression that so-called forum "veterans" are a bunch of arrogant know-it-all old-fart armchair dancers, then all well and good.

On the other hand, if you actually learn something useful then rep the individual concerned. Rep: it's like a wee electronic hug."

[El Salsero Gringo]

I didn't really phrase that very well. I'm not talking about definitive answers, but more the kind of situation where person A says "the way to make this move work is to do X" and person B says "I think it's impossible if you do X, you need to do Y". To which person A says "that's just because you're not doing X right". Without at least seeing what each other are doing, you're left with an impasse.That's true. At least, you're left at the position where you need to try suggestions, and think a bit longer and harder. That seems healthy to me. (I breathe deeply and move on when a reply to something I've written comes over as "well then you can't be doing X right.")

It's unlikely that even the most experienced teacher can suddenly jump in and settle the matter by written word. I'm sorry, I've never been very good at accepting someone else's opinion just because everyone else thinks that person knows better than me. I figure that if they do know better I should be able to see it in what they do or say. If an explanation doesn't work for me then I'm not going to be convinced even if it came direct from the lips of Albert Einstein.


If a teacher says "the most comfortable way to lead this move is X", and someone else says "no, the most comfortable way is Y", often the person who "wins" the argument is the one who's prepared to spend most time on it. Given the teacher doesn't actually stand to benefit much from the exchange, it doesn't take long before they decide it's just not worth it.I suppose that depends on whether it's an argument that needs to be 'won' and whether the teacher considers they have anything to learn from engaging in discourse with the pupil. Feynman wrote that he loved teaching for its own sake, no matter how many times you think you've explained something, there's always a new angle, a new outlook or a new way to make even an old subject seem fresh. Granted you need a pupil who's open to learn, as well as argumentative (or 'engaging', to use a more neutral term), but most people who are interested in dance on this forum fit in to that category.

[Ghost]

(I breathe deeply and move on when a reply to something I've written comes over as "well then you can't be doing X right.") Sorry - I'll try and remember that :blush: (OT, the Storm workshop dvd has Franck explaining and demoing the whole speed change with constant force thing)


Feynman wrote that he loved teaching for its own sake, no matter how many times you think you've explained something, there's always a new angle, a new outlook or a new way to make even an old subject seem fresh. Granted you need a pupil who's open to learn, as well as argumentative (or 'engaging', to use a more neutral term), but most people who are interested in dance on this forum fit in to that category. :yeah: which is why I find the whole "We've done this before" answer that's sometimes given confusing :confused:

Be Well,
Christopher

[David Franklin]

Feynman wrote that he loved teaching for its own sake, Many accounts I read tell that the actuality of Feynman's teaching was somewhat disappointing. I get the impression he taught what he wanted, rather than what the students needed to learn. (I've experienced this myself, being lectured by a fields medalist who spent the vast majority of his lectures teaching material completely unrelated to the course syllabus)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Many accounts I read tell that the actuality of Feynman's teaching was somewhat disappointing. I get the impression he taught what he wanted, rather than what the students needed to learn. (I've experienced this myself, being lectured by a fields medalist who spent the vast majority of his lectures teaching material completely unrelated to the course syllabus)Maybe so - but *he* felt he got something out of it!

[Ghost]

Many accounts I read tell that the actuality of Feynman's teaching was somewhat disappointing. Happily we have better teachers so it's all good :clap:

I can't find the quote on Google, but two classical composers were supposedly on a beach and one remarked that all the good music had already been written. The other remarked "Look, the last wave".

Surely new insights come? I love discussing science with teenagers because sometimes they'll look at it at such strange tangents and I see things I hadn't considered that way before.

If you change the school analogy to a dojo, then yes the students would be playing around and trying out stuff, but so would the teachers. Morihei Ueshiba was renowned for waking up live-in students at all times of the night to "try out a new idea". I'm a bit suprised the "Faces" don't ask us more actually. I mean if you really want to know if a refinement works, let a load of beginners loose on it and see what happens :whistle:. Likewise having the teachers wander around dispensing advice fits the dojo analogy.

As for the pub analogy, well there will always be a couple of old masters sitting quietly in the background, trying hard not to laugh as the young bucks parade around proclaiming their greatness - it's a tradition :wink:

Be Well,
Christopher

[David Franklin]

If you change the school analogy to a dojo, then yes the students would be playing around and trying out stuff, but so would the teachers. Morihei Ueshiba was renowned for waking up live-in students at all times of the night to "try out a new idea". I'm a bit suprised the "Faces" don't ask us more actually. I have to wonder if you've ever seen a large scale unmoderated martial arts forum? If Ueshiba had had internet access, I think it would have gone something like this:

Ueshiba: I had this idea for a new way of throwing someone and I was wondering what people thought...
Poster1: Throwing sucks! I'll knock you out with my dim-mak blow before you get close enough to throw me.
Ueshiba: You know, I've got a lot of experience against punchers, and I know how to avoid a punch. I'm sure I could get close enough.
Poster1: Against bad punchers, maybe. But my punch goes at 200mph and only gives 1/100th of a second to react.
Poster2: Yeah that's right. Did you see that van Damme movie where he breaks a brick at the bottom with a dim-mak punch? Imagine what that does to your insides.
Poster3: Well, you're kind of right, but the real power is in kicks. I heard about this guy whose sidekick was so powerful that even if you blocked it, it just broke your arm and send the bone fragments into your body. My kick's not that powerful yet, but I'm sure it would kill someone if I used all my power. How can punching or throwing compare with that?
...some posts later...
Ueshiba: So what you're saying is that I've been studying martial arts for 50 years, I have won hundreds of tournaments and trained thousands of champions, but you can kick my ass after 3 months Ninja training?
Poster1: That's right. Face it, Aikido is all fossilised old guys who don't know how to fight and just sit around in pyjamas.
Ueshiba: (calling IT support) Hi! Look, is there any way I can get an real world address from someone's posting ID? ... Why? ... Oh, I just need to pay someone a, um, visit. Yes, that's right - a friendly visit...


It makes a huge difference if you can meet up and actually try these things. Something factual I remember from rec.martial-arts, must have been about 15 years ago now. A guy claimed he could take a full contact blow to the throat without damage. A lot of people said, in effect, "yeah, right!". So he got a few regulars to visit him and give it a go. And basically these guys were all saying "it's really wierd, and I don't understand how it works, but yeah, he can do it". I'm not sure he could ever have convinced them over the internet.

[Ghost]

I have to wonder if you've ever seen a large scale unmoderated martial arts forum?
I believe the expression "avoid like the plague" applies, pretty much for the reasons you gave.

If Ueshiba had had internet access, I think it would have gone something like this:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
But the important word is "unmoderated". There are some amazing Forums where guys with 40, 50, 60+ years of experience patiently explain stuff to the rest of us. It can work.

Be Well,
Christopher

[ducasi]

David F's post reminds of My New Fighting Technique is Unstoppable (http://www.mnftiu.cc/). (Don't visit this page if you don't like a bit of bad language with your humour.)

:)

[David Franklin]

But the important word is "unmoderated". But this forum is about as near to an unmoderated forum I've seen. Which brings the discussion close to full circle, I believe.

Of course, the problem with moderation is that the people in favour of it tend to only be in favour of it when they have the same attitude as the moderators. To paraphrase one of my favourite authors:


As a democrat, I can cope with an aristocracy. As long as I get to be an aristocrat.

[Ghost]

Which brings the discussion close to full circle, I believe.
Yep so in conclusion:
Should we nicer to newbies? - we're already wonderful :clap:
Yeah but what about certain people? - oh well :whistle:
Should Moderators moderate more? - no :na:
Ok should we politely warn newbies if they stray? - no point, they don't listen anyway :tears:

Oh well, David's other threads look interesting.....

Be Well,
Christopher

[Whitebeard]

Personally, I think that we are generally very welcoming to almost every person who joins the forum.



Ho-hum, was it not thee who jumped quite hard on me when I innocently described myself as a perpetual beginner in one of my first posts ???

[David Franklin]

Ho-hum, was it not thee who jumped quite hard on me when I innocently described myself as a perpetual beginner in one of my first posts ???

16 stone, 13lbs.
:eek:

[TheTramp]

mmmmmmmmm

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:whistle: :wink:

You will have noticed in my original post that there was an 'almost'. Not quite sure why you felt a need to cut that out in your reply... :mad:

[TheTramp]

Ho-hum, was it not thee who jumped quite hard on me when I innocently described myself as a perpetual beginner in one of my first posts ???

Nope. What my post said was...



Yeah. That's my line. Go find your own 'hook'.

But welcome to the forum anyhow :D

Trampy


I'm sorry if this caused you to think that I jumped on you at all. Seems fairly innocuous to me.

[Whitebeard]

I'm sorry if this caused you to think that I jumped on you at all. Seems fairly innocuous to me.

It does indeed look fairly innocuous now, but at the time I did find it rather abrupt. Must have developed a thicker skin in the interim.

In terms of moves, I'm still a beginner ;-)

[TheTramp]

In terms of moves, I'm still a beginner ;-)

That's ok. Me too :D :flower:

[fletch]

That's ok. Me too :D :flower:
You are defiantly getting there,:D I thought you learnt one or two moves at Southport, now.:rolleyes: .....the trick is to keep practising them.:na:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[DavidB]

There is a grace period already. It is that time between signing up and making your first post.


We don't tolerate them riding in on a HarleyI didn't see this before. What is wrong with people who ride Harleys?

[El Salsero Gringo]

There is a grace period already. It is that time between signing up and making your first post.Wow - that's almost as grumpy as me.
I didn't see this before. What is wrong with people who ride Harleys?Nothing at all - it's just that the distinctive rhythm of the Harley engine (which as is widely known results from the 45 degree V-twin engine in which both cylinders share a single crankshaft pin) is too complex for a Ceroc teacher to find the beat.

[Juju]

Just for the record I think all newbies are great.

:D

[David Bailey]

Thought it was time to revive this thread :whistle:

I still think a grace period is a good idea. I'd say something like 50 posts, or 1 month ideally.
More realistically, we could adopt a convention / mechanism of "first 10 posts", as that's already existing for the "power" system?

[Lou]

Thought it was time to revive this thread :whistle:
Four months ago, the concensus was that there was no need for such a grace period. IIRC, this thread had been inspired by the appearence of one specific newbie, who made quite a stir with some forthright opinions.

Since then, we've also seen the introduction of GaG. ;)

Do you really think that people's opinions will have changed in such a short time (in the way you'd personally like) to merit digging up this thread, again? :rolleyes:

[TheTramp]

It depends on what the circumstances are!

Some people deliberately come on to cause division and make argument. Why should those people have a grace period?

And, because of those people, I think that there's a natural suspicion of people who just come on and do maybe post in the 'wrong way'.

I sort of think that you are right. There should be some sort of leeway for people who maybe do post in an unacceptable way, but not extended. If it's drawn to their attention that maybe they haven't started on the forum in the best way, and they carry on in that fashion, then the grace period can rapidly be dispensed with.

After all, we are all adults and have to take responsibility for our own actions....

[fletch]

Do you really think that people's opinions will have changed in such a short time (in the way you'd personally like) to merit digging up this thread, again? :rolleyes:



There might be a good reason for reviving this tread and I might be replying later today.:what:

I don't always get thing right, I personally believe my hart is in the right place? I do care, to much sometimes, but if i'm wrong I hope I am big enough to say so and apologise. :flower:



.

[David Bailey]

Do you really think that people's opinions will have changed in such a short time (in the way you'd personally like) to merit digging up this thread, again? :rolleyes:
What? Are you accusing me of... stirring? :eek: :innocent:

[WittyBird]

After all, we are all adults and have to take responsibility for our own actions....


:yeah: It's also very suspect when people leave their profile completely blank and just make rude remarks then when challenged make some excuse about not knowing how to work a pc etc.:rolleyes:

[Lou]

There might be a good reason for reviving this tread and I might be replying later today.:what:
Fair enough! :hug: I just assumed DJ was stirring again...


What? Are you accusing me of... stirring? :eek: :innocent:
:whistle:

[ALexyMiss]

I'm pretty new to the forum and don't necessarily expect a grace period, but would certainly appreciate it if people 'more in the know' or who have been around the forum longer, PM me if I post anything that is not quite cricket! :flower:

In general terms, I think it would be nice if new joiners get a little extra support :hug: on their first few posts, and were spared too much assault initially.

Just remember back to how you felt when you first joined the forum and you didn't know the un-said 'rules', who's who, the good, the bad and the evil :devil:

Having said all that :yeah: I've found most people have been very friendly and welcoming - thank-you :flower: , so maybe nothing needs to change at all!

[fletch]

I'm pretty new to the forum and don't necessarily expect a grace period, but would certainly appreciate it if people 'more in the know' or who have been around the forum longer, PM me if I post anything that is not quite cricket! :flower:

In general terms, I think it would be nice if new joiners get a little extra support :hug: on their first few posts, and were spared too much assault initially.

Just remember back to how you felt when you first joined the forum and you didn't know the un-said 'rules', who's who, the good, the bad and the evil :devil:

Having said all that :yeah: I've found most people have been very friendly and welcoming - thank-you :flower: , so maybe nothing needs to change at all!


Hi babes, carn't weight for the weekend :flower:

You won't need a PM someone will tell you :flower:

I made lots of mistakes when I first joined,:blush:and still do :blush: I was told to share information with the forum, by someone that had PMed me so I posted the PM, I now know to that is a definite no,no! :sad:


I had no information on my profile which meant people didn't believe I was real, I think that helped me when other forumtie new that I was a real person. and I don't mean, general information which could fit anyone, I mean I was REAL.

IMHO this place is real, in as much as, if you are shy or with no confidence, dion't type contraversual things on here that you wouldn't say to someones face, they might ask you later face to face ( and I don't meen agressiverly) it reminds me bit like 'road rage' the nicest of people go mad behing the wheel ?


:flower:

[ALexyMiss]

Great advice! :worthy:

Thank-you:flower:



IMHO this place is real, in as much as, if you are shy or with no confidence, dion't type contraversual things on here that you wouldn't say to someones face, they might ask you later face to face ( and I don't meen agressiverly) it reminds me bit like 'road rage' the nicest of people go mad behing the wheel ?


:flower:


I think this is particularly interesting. I wonder how often people stick to this of only posting things they'd say face-to-face?

[TurboTomato]

IMO a grace period is not needed. To be honest the whole rep system confuses me a bit and I can't see the point - if anything it's a little off-putting as a newbie because not only do you have no posts but you have no rep points either

You will always get people trolling to cause trouble on any forum - most of the time self moderating works, and said person will bugger off after stirring up a bit of trouble and getting the attention they want. In the cases where they carry on IMO it is the job of the moderators to make a collective judgement as to what action should be taken - warnings at the lowest level, bannings at the highest. I am admin on another forum with around 3500 members on it and it seems to work fine there

Just my 2p

[Genie]

I must admit that as a beginner I felt a little like someone who was staring through a window into a crowded room with a big family in it, not knowing anyone, and whether some people's flippant remarks were serious or not. It can be quite daunting. However, knowing a good number of regulars on here 'face to face' makes a whole lot of difference. I am not 'debating' with a name and an icon. I am debating with people I know. So now, if they say something that seems to others to be 'a little abrupt or perhaps even hurtful' I know it's usually not meant like that. They're just being their usual sarky self :rolleyes:

On the subject of 'we have had this discussion before' responses, I completely agree that a pleasant response and a link is much better for new people. Because new people would have a hard time trying to read through all 300k+ posts before asking a question. I think people need to be a bit kinder to those newbies. I know it scares people away from asking any further questions because they're afraid it's "Already been done before, we're not interested".

It pays to be 'patient' with new people, when they're being reasonable. But when they are obviously rude, I don't see why someone shouldn't tell them they are being rude (without being very rude back, as it only escalates). The same goes for posts from regular and grumpy old farts! :na: If they are rude, you tell them :wink: The difference is you know said people will still ask you for a dance when you come face to face, because they are adults and they are Cerocers (if they are not at least one of those, they don't belong here) :D

The ones who don't even post a rough location on their profile worry me a bit. It would be nice to know what venues they frequent, if only to know how far away they are and what I am likely to get away with :wink:

[Dreadful Scathe]

I had no information on my profile which meant people didn't believe I was real, I think that helped me when other forumtie new that I was a real person. and I don't mean, general information which could fit anyone, I mean I was REAL.

Was that ever established? I still think of you all as a figment of my imagination. Perhaps if i meet anyone thats the moment when they actually puff into existence.

DavidJames doesnt exist - its just an artificial intelligence program at NASA.

[David Bailey]

DavidJames doesnt exist - its just an artificial intelligence program at NASA.
Half past three.

[Shodan]

I must admit that as a beginner I felt a little like someone who was staring through a window into a crowded room with a big family in it, not knowing anyone, and whether some people's flippant remarks were serious or not. It can be quite daunting. However, knowing a good number of regulars on here 'face to face' makes a whole lot of difference.
I have similar problems as well, but can understand from both sides. On other forums I have been there for years and years, so I *AM* part of the Big Family there.
My newbie experience here, and seeing the Big Family has actually helped me treat the newbies better on my other forums.

Its hard to get into the Big Family of you guys, and I've hardly met any of you lot. But you seem quite nice here. :nice:

The only problems I forsee is YOU lot getting used to my quirky and sarcastic sense of humour and you taking me serious when actually I'm just joking around (which is most of the time). :rofl:

[El Salsero Gringo]

To be honest the whole rep system confuses me a bit and I can't see the point - if anything it's a little off-putting as a newbie because not only do you have no posts but you have no rep points either
That's a very good point. I think all new members should on joining be given 1000 rep points, and about 250 posts, just to get them off the mark. That will be a whole lot less off-putting, and much less confusing to boot.

[El Salsero Gringo]

DavidJames doesnt exist - its just an artificial intelligence program at NASA.Don't be silly. Not even NASA could come up with something *that* dumb.

[David Bailey]

Don't be silly. Not even NASA could come up with something *that* dumb.
The purple cat jumped over the moon.

[El Salsero Gringo]

The purple cat jumped over the moon.I think he's about to core dump...

[TurboTomato]

That's a very good point. I think all new members should on joining be given 1000 rep points, and about 250 posts, just to get them off the mark. That will be a whole lot less off-putting, and much less confusing to boot.

:rolleyes:

No need to be sarcy, I was just expressing an opinion. Of course I don't expect to be given any posts or points, I just can't see the point of all the rep stuff, haven't been on any other forum that uses it. What benefit does it give exactly?

[El Salsero Gringo]

:rolleyes:

No need to be sarcy, I was just expressing an opinion. Of course I don't expect to be given any posts or points, I just can't see the point of all the rep stuff, haven't been on any other forum that uses it. What benefit does it give exactly?Sorry, I just like to take the ****. What's the point of rep? It gives those of us that have it the opportunity to lord it over those of you that don't. In our sad, empty lives it gives us a little candle-flame of satisfaction.

(At least, that's what DavidJames told me it was for.)

[Ghost]

What benefit does it give exactly?
Theoretically it gives you an indication of how many worthy things someone has said and so a quick way of establishing how much credit to give their opinion. So clearly ESG knows more than me, and DavidJames knows more than both of us.........

Positive rep just seems to be a way of acknowledging that you think what the person said is particularly worthwhile although....


I was just repped (thank-you! :)) for a post I made on this thread almost a year ago. As I went back to see what I'd written that deserved this accolade (really, all my posts deserve rep, IM(NS)HO)
;)

[TheTramp]

Theoretically it gives you an indication of how many worthy things someone has said and so a quick way of establishing how much credit to give their opinion. So clearly ESG knows more than me, and DavidJames knows more than both of us.........

That's very theoretical.....

Means that DavidJames knows 250 times as much about dancing as anyone who's just joined the forum. Which would be interesting if, say, Jordan Frisbee or Robert Cordoba ever joined....

Personally, I think that rep scores mean nothing. They're an indication of several things - probably the most meaningful being how often you post. Or how many friends you've got who are also posting. Or how much of a rep tart you are...

[David Bailey]

That's very theoretical.....

Means that DavidJames knows 250 times as much about dancing as anyone who's just joined the forum. Which would be interesting if, say, Jordan Frisbee or Robert Cordoba ever joined....
Sounds about right to me, where's the flaw in that logic? :confused: :na:


Personally, I think that rep scores mean nothing. They're an indication of several things - probably the most meaningful being how often you post. Or how many friends you've got who are also posting. Or how much of a rep tart you are...
Does that mean I can count on your vote for the Great Rep Reset then? :)

[TheTramp]

Does that mean I can count on your vote for the Great Rep Reset then? :)

Oh yes. Indeed, I've already posted something along those lines!

Actually, I think that it should be reset on a weekly basis!

[Ghost]

That's very theoretical.....

Means that DavidJames knows 250 times as much about dancing as anyone who's just joined the forum. Which would be interesting if, say, Jordan Frisbee or Robert Cordoba ever joined....

It's slightly scarier than that - on joining you have a rep of "0" so David James knows infinitely more than anyone who's just joined! :whistle:

[TheTramp]

It's slightly scarier than that - on joining you have a rep of "0" so David James knows infinitely more than anyone who's just joined! :whistle:

I thought that everyone started off with 10 points.... :confused:

[David Bailey]

It's slightly scarier than that - on joining you have a rep of "0" so David James knows infinitely more than anyone who's just joined! :whistle:
Actually, everyone knows infinitely more than anyone who's just joined, by that logic...

[Ghost]

I thought that everyone started off with 10 points.... :confused:

Yep - looks like your right. Oh well I've learnt something new :clap:

[TheTramp]

Yep - looks like your right.

First time for everything!