Following?

[horsey_dude]

Why do so few women seem to know how to follow? I have now been to about 10 different franchises and 1 different modern jive studio and I am amazed at how few women really follow the lead without anticipating or trying to lead themselves.

This is not an attack on the ladies so please don't feel like you have to flame me!

The way that I understand it (and you can correct me if I am wrong) the man leads each part of a move and if he was to stop halfway through then the woman would stop. This means that the man can lead a move that the woman has never done before and she will simply follow each part until it is completed.

What seems to happen is that at the start the woman tries to guess what move is coming up and then leads herself through it. This means that if the man is trying to do something different with the timing it ends up looking really messy as the woman tries to slow down or speed up at the last minute.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
Why do so few women seem to know how to follow? Because so few men know how to lead.


The way that I understand it (and you can correct me if I am wrong) the man leads each part of a move and if he was to stop halfway through then the woman would stop. This means that the man can lead a move that the woman has never done before and she will simply follow each part until it is completed.Most of the simpler Ceroc moves flow pretty well. By that I mean the lady is just doing a pretty natural movement, with no uncomfortable or forced changes of direction. If you change these moves, you must keep this natural flow, or give the lady enough warning that something different is going to happen. For example in a return, you can turn the lady twice, taking an extra count, quite easily because it flows. But to get the lady to turn twice in a single count you have to set the lady up for the turn a bit sharper (I hesitate before saying stronger), and put the acceleration in early enough so the lady has a chance.

The lead starts before the follow. It is impossible for the two to start at the same time. So make sure you lead early enough for the lady to do the step in time with the music.

The amount of energy needed to lead properly is very small, but it has to be well directed. So make sure you can lead the normal version properly. Then make sure your lead for the variation is noticably different, but still with just enough energy to do the move. As soon as you start putting too much into it, you risk pulling the lady off balance, or even worse hurting her. She will then spend the rest of the dance fighting you, not following you.

It is not just your hand that does the lead. The lady will take clues from what your body is doing, and sometimes where you are looking. If you are doing a variation, then your body can almost certainly do something different. Try practising with a lady who you are very used to dancing with, and do a whole song without holding hands. Don't just do basic steps - do your variations as well, and see how much your body shaping can affect the lady.

And make sure you don't give the lady confusing leads just because you are trying to add your own style.

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
Why do so few women seem to know how to follow? I have now been to about 10 different franchises and 1 different modern jive studio and I am amazed at how few women really follow the lead without anticipating or trying to lead themselves. I am afraid I am with DavidB on this one, on the dance floor, the man has to take responsibility for everything, even for his partner not following.
Apart from Beginners, most women will follow a move if given sufficient warning and guides. If you find women don't follow your variations, try to identify the point where they fail to follow and bring your lead earlier...

Another good idea would be for you to dance as a woman for a while (find a few open-minded guys to lead you). You will notice very quickly how baffling some moves become when the boot is on the other shoe! :nice:

Franck.

[TheTramp]

I'm mostly with David and Franck.

I totally agree that it is the guys not leading the women well that usually leads to women anticipating things themselves, and not following the leads. And maybe, if every guy actually led, then the situation wouldn't be there.

However, even when ladies do get good leads, quite often I find that they will still be anticipating (although, as previously stated, this might be from having to compensate the rest of the time).

I think that in classes, ladies should be concentrating on learning how to follow. When I was a taxi dancer, I used to tell all the beginner ladies not to try to do the moves themselves - even when the guy they were with was doing it 'wrong'. Let themselves be led wrongly - and then at the end, tell the guy what he was doing wrong, rather than just taking the lead, and walking through the move themselves, as this means that the lady doesn't learn to follow, and the guy doesn't learn to lead.

Another thing, I think, is that most people are loathe to give feedback to people they dance with. I understand that this may be difficult - there was the lady who when I asked if I might offer a little advice, very snootily told me that she'd been dancing for 2 years. I barely restrained from point out that if she'd been dancing for 2 years, then I'd have expected her to be a lot less crap than she was - but if people don't get feedback on how they are dancing, how do they know if they are doing things right or not.

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by TheTramp

Another thing, I think, is that most people are loathe to give feedback to people they dance with. I understand that this may be difficult - there was the lady who when I asked if I might offer a little advice, very snootily told me that she'd been dancing for 2 years. I barely restrained from point out that if she'd been dancing for 2 years, then I'd have expected her to be a lot less crap than she was - but if people don't get feedback on how they are dancing, how do they know if they are doing things right or not.

I think the people that dont accept criticism are never going to be the best they can be, and are probably nowhere near as good as they think they are. Accepting constructive criticism will teach you a hell of a lot (ive found) of course it may not always be constructive but you can tell if people are trying to be helpful and should take comments in the spirit they are given.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck
try to identify the point where they fail to follow and bring your lead earlier... If things go consistently wrong at one point in a move, and you can't figure out what is happening, then look at what you do immediately before the problem. In my experience, 9 times out of 10 the solution lies in fixing what you have already done, not what you want to do next.

David

[Graham]

I'm also mostly with Dave and Franck, but I agree with Steve too - there is certainly an element of not following which some ladies exhibit right from the start. I make no claim to be a decent lead, but I think I can probably lead at least some of the beginners moves competently, and yet there are still times I do a class and a lady will more or less completely ignore me, and just walk through what she thinks she should be doing (often by looking at and copying someone else).

Where I agree with Franck and Dave is that if you are a good lead, you can overcome this, and to some extent I can do with most people (especially in freestyle, since it's harder for them to anticipate what I'm about to do) but I do find it's a bit like pushing a shopping trolley - it's not that it's tremendously difficult or strenuous countering the wonky wheel, it's just much nicer when you don't have to.

[Stuart M]

There is one tricky area about giving advice to lady beginners though - trying to make them move in closer.

If you're not the teacher or a taxi dancer, it's difficult to offer such advice, without sounding like you're trying it on. And whilst I generally agree with the view that "it's always the man's fault", it can be a nightmare, trying to lead a woman who requires a foot radius of clear air around her...:reallymad

[Graham]

Originally posted by Stuart M
There is one tricky area about giving advice to lady beginners though - trying to make them move in closer.

If you're not the teacher or a taxi dancer, it's difficult to offer such advice, without sounding like you're trying it on. And whilst I generally agree with the view that "it's always the man's fault", it can be a nightmare, trying to lead a woman who requires a foot radius of clear air around her...:reallymad

Can't say I've noticed that problem Stuart. :wink:

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Graham
there are still times I do a class and a lady will more or less completely ignore me, and just walk through what she thinks she should be doing (often by looking at and copying someone else).



This really used to annoy me. How can they watch for signals etc when they are looking at someone else ? i think it's a bit like the womens moan about guys not making eye contact. If they are not watching what you do , how can they hope to follow you ?

[Franck]

Originally posted by TheTramp
However, even when ladies do get good leads, quite often I find that they will still be anticipating (although, as previously stated, this might be from having to compensate the rest of the time).Yep I agree, they will anticipate (up to a point, they have to), and this is why we (as leaders) have to anticipate the anticipation :wink: I often describe leading as closing options, leaving only one open door for the lady to go through. the only way you'll manage to avoid ladies leading / anticipating is through leaving only 1 very clear (and as DavidB says: comfortable) option.
There will always be women who despite all the above go against everything, and lead back in totally unpredictable ways, but I usually put this down to nervousness, especially if they know they are dancing with a 'good' dancer... they simply panic.
I think that in classes, ladies should be concentrating on learning how to follow. I agree, but in a busy class situation, it is not always possible, even in workshops, where you can be much more on top of things.
The best advice I find I can give (new) women is to avoid dancing with beginners, and to concentrate on dancing with experienced leads. This will give them an idea of what 'Freestyle' is and help them relax. The advice about not 'helping' men is good too, as long as women do the leading for the men, how can men learn what is needed of them?

Another thing, I think, is that most people are loathe to give feedback to people they dance with.I am a bit weary of unsolicited advice... Most people would not welcome it, and if anything it might affect their confidence... Also a lot of 'unsolicited advice' is often given by people who would most need advice themselves :wink:
I would however encourage everyone to solicit advice from someone they regard as good (teachers and taxi-dancers are a good start), as DS says, anyone who thinks they don't need advice or can't improve, still have a lot to learn! :D

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
This really used to annoy me. How can they watch for signals etc when they are looking at someone else ? i think it's a bit like the womens moan about guys not making eye contact. If they are not watching what you do , how can they hope to follow you ? I think you have to separate the Class from Freestyle.

In the Class, everyone is learning, and the women are seeking visual re-assurance that they are doing the right thing, especially if you make it easy by leading well, it will seem too easy and they will look at the teacher / demo for confirmation they went 'the right way'. Often they will be wondering what to do with their feet etc and will need to check the stage.
During a class, everyone's attention is (and should be) focused on the teacher, so I don't mind when my partner ignores me temporarily.

In Freestyle on the other hand, there is no excuse for not paying attention to your partner. Making eye contact and looking in their direction to catch leads / signals etc... is crucial!
I know that some people (men and women) can become quite nervous, and therefore will not look at their partner, but it does make the dance much more difficult...

Franck.

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Graham
Can't say I've noticed that problem Stuart. :wink:
Ah, seeing as you're now CJ's "dances like a girl" champion, that's because you're not seen as a threat :na:

You were asking for that one!

Seriously though, I think the "move in close" hurdle is an important one to overcome with beginners. Simplest thing is to tell the lady to relax, I've found.

Advising a non-beginner is something I generally wouldn't do, unless I knew her fairly well.

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Franck
?
I am a bit weary of unsolicited advice... Most people would not welcome it, and if anything it might affect their confidence... Also a lot of 'unsolicited advice' is often given by people who would most need advice themselves :wink:
I would however encourage everyone to solicit advice from someone they regard as good (teachers and taxi-dancers are a good start), as DS says, anyone who thinks they don't need advice or can't improve, still have a lot to learn! :D

Franck.
Good call Franck. My good lady often tells me about relatively inexperienced guys that tell her she has done a move incorrectly, after giving a crap, or even non existant lead. Asking people with more experince than yourself is always a good way to learn, so ask a Taxi dancer, coz that's what they're there for.
:cheers:

[Graham]

Originally posted by Franck
In the Class, everyone is learning, and the women are seeking visual re-assurance that they are doing the right thing, especially if you make it easy by leading well, it will seem too easy and they will look at the teacher / demo for confirmation they went 'the right way'. Often they will be wondering what to do with their feet etc and will need to check the stage.
During a class, everyone's attention is (and should be) focused on the teacher, so I don't mind when my partner ignores me temporarily.
I have no objection to what you describe. But I fail to see how you can execute the majority of moves correctly whilst maintaining your head in a position facing the teacher (and I'm not kidding - some people do this!). Added to the fact that they're ignoring me, some of them then FAIL to follow the teacher correctly (eg turn left instead of right, etc) resulting in discomfort and occasionally pain. And of course even if they do successfully follow the teacher, I might make a mistake, with the same results.

Generally I watch the teacher during the walk-thru, but when we get to a count or music I just listen. I'm still paying attention to the teacher, but of course can also take into account what my partner is doing.

[John S]

Originally posted by Stuart M

Seriously though, I think the "move in close" hurdle is an important one to overcome with beginners. Simplest thing is to tell the lady to relax, I've found.


It can also help to explain that if you start close together you can then move apart and create the tension needed to dance well.

(BTW, this seems to be a guy-only thread: there's a deafening silence from the distaff side!) :what:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Graham
Generally I watch the teacher during the walk-thru, but when we get to a count or music I just listen. I'm still paying attention to the teacher, but of course can also take into account what my partner is doing. Yep, that's fair enough, but you are talking from the perspective of a leader rather than a follower...
Followers are a the mercy of their partner, if they are lead the right way, the move will be correct and all is fine, but as often as not they are lead the wrong way during the class.
It is all a question of trust, do they trust the man's lead or not.
The women you are talking about might have just danced with another beginner who consistently lead them in the 'wrong' direction, so when you try (correctly) to lead them the other way, they are bound to resist / check that you are not doing it wrong...

Having said that, I agree that it can be pretty painful / frustrating when you *know* you're right, and they refuse to follow / listen :wink:

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by John S
(BTW, this seems to be a guy-only thread: there's a deafening silence from the distaff side!) :what: Well, this thread has not mentioned chocolate once so far, so I am not surprised :wink:

Franck.

[CJ]

Originally posted by Stuart M
Ah, seeing as you're now CJ's "dances like a girl" champion, that's because you're not seen as a threat :na:

Seriously though, I think the "move in close" hurdle is an important one to overcome with beginners. Simplest thing is to tell the lady to relax, I've found.


Firstly: no, Stuart, you're still the champ!!

Secondly: if you weren't trying to get your leg over, perhaps you wouldn't be encountering this problem...

TAXI FOR MEEEEEE :D :D :D

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Franck
Well, this thread has not mentioned chocolate once so far, so I am not surprised :wink:

Franck.

Oh no!!!!! you've gone and mentioned the "C " word Franck
that's a cue for wendy And Chicklet to go completely off thread:wink:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Franck
Well, this thread has not mentioned chocolate once so far, so I am not surprised :wink:

Franck.

Did I hear chocolate !!!!:D

It took a while to read through all this and would take even longer to quote all these great comments guys !!!

In a beginners' class the girls are dancing with beginner boys right ?? They are both learning the moves at the same time but not necessarily learning about leading and following. That means that the girls pick up the moves, feel great that they've learned something and then spend the rest of the night anticipating the moves they have learned. Recipe for disaaster in many ways... As a very keen beginner I wanted to learn (recognise) as many moves as possible and as a result am a really bad follower.

We do not get exposed to good leads early enough (as some of these angels miss out the beginners' class !!!!) and on top of that so many men chrun out the same routine that you know EXACTLY what is coming next. :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

Then when you dance with an interesting guy you get all tense and don't do what he wants. !!!!!!

Maybe the lead follow thing has to be made clearer EVERY beginners' class. Maybe we need to do those trust exercises where the boy walks round the room with the girls blindfolded or something. As has been said on many threads the girls closing her eyes is fab.

And telling someone to relax often makes them do the very opposite !!!

Wx

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
[Secondly: if you weren't trying to get your leg over, perhaps you wouldn't be encountering this problem...

TAXI FOR MEEEEEE :D :D :D Trying to get his leg over WHAT exactly, is there a pile of something on the floor?, or a spilled drink? or a fellow dancer taking a rest?

You guys really didn't think we'd leave you alone in a thread all of your own did you?????

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Trying to get his leg over WHAT exactly


Last time Blue34 tried to get his leg over, he kicked the girl in the head - not kidding !!!!

And Chicklet we've gone and done what they said we'd do !!!!

Quick get this back on topic or we'll never live this down !!

Wx

[CJ]

The hurdle, dear, the hurdle.:rolleyes:

[CJ]

Originally posted by Wendy
Last time Blue34 tried to get his leg over, he kicked the girl in the head - not kidding !!!!
Wx

Well, what was her head doing down there, anyway? I know it's a social dance.... but it is a family show.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Wendy
And Chicklet we've gone and done what they said we'd do !!!!

Quick get this back on topic or we'll never live this down !! How predictable :D

So go on, bring it back on topic... otherwise you might end up outside 2 days in a row :really:


Originally posted by Wendy
We do not get exposed to good leads early enough (as some of these angels miss out the beginners' class !!!!) and on top of that so many men chrun out the same routine that you know EXACTLY what is coming next.Well, you actually get exposed to good lead much sooner than in most other dance class I have been to or heard of! Usually people come with a partner and dance with them for the duration of the night!
At least, you get to change partner and get the odd man who is not a beginner :D
i agree thought that more effort could be put into encouraging the guys to be a bit more creative, but unfortunately, the Beginners class is not the best place to do this, Most men already struggle with learning the move / routine without having to think creatively as well! That sort of works is done at Beginners and Intermediate workshops. Sadly, not everyone realises how much they would benefit from a workshop.


Then when you dance with an interesting guy you get all tense and don't do what he wants. !!!!!!I have never noticed you do that with me, so obviously, I don't fall into that category (yet :D ) I'll keep practising...


Maybe we need to do those trust exercises where the boy walks round the room with the girls blindfolded or something.Now Wendy, you're letting your imagination (fantasies?) run riot :wink: :devil:

Franck.

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Well, what was her head doing down there, anyway? I know it's a social dance.... but it is a family show.

I think you'll have to ask him. Don't want Franck to Take me Outside !!! Something to do with being stiff from the day before ... his leg of course he'd been running or something !!
Dave H taught him the move- HE'D never kick a girl in the head ....


Wx

[CJ]

Originally posted by Wendy
I think you'll have to ask him. Don't want Franck to Take me Outside !!! Something to do with being stiff from the day before ... his leg of course he'd been running or something !!
Dave H taught him the move- HE'D never kick a girl in the head .... I take it Dave H doesn't smell of fish either!?!?!?!?!??:innocent:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
I take it Dave H doesn't smell of fish either!?!?!?!?!??:innocent:

Hard to say "no comment" when you are dying to say something else !!!!! Hands over mouth !!!!!

Wx

[BlueThreeFour]

Dave H taught him the move- HE'D never kick a girl in the head ....


Wx [/B][/QUOTE]

Except Chicklet

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
I take it Dave H doesn't smell of fish either!?!?!?!?!??:innocent:

Sorry never been lucky enough to be close enough to tell. Maybe only on special occassions? But soon as I can speak from experience I'll post a thread....no actually I'm probably more likely to poke into someone else's thread really and thinking about it even more I think Dave H might be a smellies man.

Ladies - who likes a man to wear a strong smelly on the floor????

On topic now.

From a novice point of view I like a gentle but obvious lead ................and a firm body but not to muscley (sp anybody??) about 40ish dark and jewish looking and just heading for grey.
Does anyone know if Jonathon Edwards can dance???Or I would swap the firm body for piano playing if anyone wanted to bring along David Baddiel.

Sorry.


And I LOVE it when a guy realises that I'm not being silly and trying to do my own thing I just don't know the move and therefore didn't read the signal for what it was. If he realises and talks me thru it and I get it I'm just pleased as punch.

Cx

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Blue34
Dave H taught him the move- HE'D never kick a girl in the head ....


Wx

Except Chicklet [/B][/QUOTE]


he'd have to catch her first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:kiss:

[BlueThreeFour]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wendy
[B]Last time Blue34 tried to get his leg over, he kicked the girl in the head - not kidding !!!!



Wendy stop gossiping about me on the forum or I'll tell everyone what you showed me in Dundee.

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Franck
Well, you actually get exposed to good lead much sooner than in most other dance class I have been to or heard of! At least, you get to change partner and get the odd man who is not a beginner :D

True...... but we have a lot of exposure to beginner men at the beginning !!!! (which obviously can't be helped !!!) and even worse than that, some of us feel obliged to dance as men in the class and that must be bad news for beginner women -I know I must be an awful lead !!! maybe we shouldn't do that ???



I agree though that more effort could be put into encouraging the guys to be a bit more creative, but unfortunately, the Beginners class is not the best place to do this,

Not recommending that AT ALL !!!! AFTER the class I meant !!!




Sadly, not everyone realises how much they would benefit from a workshop.

Totally agree !!! I would go every week if I could ! As I've said a million times before (you'll be thinking) why can't the beginners class be more like a workshop - the moves are less important than the lead follow thing surely or the complaint made at the beginning of this thread would not have been made !!! Or the Intermediate classs could be more like a workshop !!! This reminds me of the chat with GUS - is it teaching or entertainment !!! You don't get BETTER by learning new moves !!!!!!!



I have never noticed you do that with me (yet :D )

Well, I'm sure I do - you charmer !!!!


Now Wendy, you're letting your imagination (fantasies?) run riot :wink: :devil:

No I wasn't for once. Although now you've got me started !!!! :wink: :devil:

[PeterL]

The only advise I give a girl in class is not to look at the teacher as it makes my job more difficult. I only do this in the intermediate class as by the time a girl is in the intermediate class she should be able to follow my lead.

This helps me in that I know I can lead the move if the girl goes in the right direction whilst if they are following the girl on stage then then I may as well not be leading. I find that learning the steps of a move is less important than learning how the move feels when it goes right and then I recreate that, I don't remember the steps or the hand positions etc, and I find this makes learning moves step by step for me very difficult.

for example I cannot break a pretzel down into each separate beat but know how the move flows and feels.

This probably makes me a nightmare in class because I watch the move and see if I can recreate the whole thing, breaking it down into steps doesn't work for me.

Anyway getting back to the point. I always make a point of attending the begginer class whenever I can, mainly because there is always something new to learn and I always remember certain ladies who were obviously experienced making it a lot easier for me when I was learning. A good begginers class should have a mixture of begginers and intermediates, that way it is not a case of the blind leading the blind.

The only time I sit out a begginer class if is there is too many guys, too many people arrive just in time for the intermediate class and are not there at the begginer class. If more intermediates attended then life would be a lot easier on begginers.
:)

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Wendy
We do not get exposed to good leads early enough (as some of these angels miss out the beginners' class !!!!)
I don't understand why 'good' leads (& followers) don't go to the beginner's classes? It's the basics; what everything else is based on - it gives an excelent opportunity to hone them and get your placement right.

and on top of that so many men chrun out the same routine that you know EXACTLY what is coming next. :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad
Curious: would you prefer to dance with a lead that knew his routine so well that he can lead it really niceley, OR someone who was trying out new moves, and so didn't know how to lead them properly yet?

{...need to work on some new moves...}

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Gadget
I don't understand why 'good' leads (& followers) don't go to the beginner's classes? It's the basics; what everything else is based on - it gives an excelent opportunity to hone them and get your placement right. Agree 100%
Curious: would you prefer to dance with a lead that knew his routine so well that he can lead it really niceley, OR someone who was trying out new moves, and so didn't know how to lead them properly yet? I don't want to dance a routine unless I'm in a cabaret !!! A routine leaves no room for the music !!!! Unless you always dance the same routine to the same record yawn !!!! And anyway he doesn't have to lead cos I know exactly what he's going to do !!! Seriously I know a lot of guys like this and as a beginner I thought they were great and now I'm bored to death !!!

Isn't practising new moves what the entire intermediate class is for already ???? I 'm happy to let the guy practise new moves he's picked up at a workshop or something and talk it through etc etc and even in the middle of a dance but not at parties and not when it's Cantaloop....


Wx

[Lou]

Originally posted by Wendy
..some of us feel obliged to dance as men in the class and that must be bad news for beginner women -I know I must be an awful lead !!! maybe we shouldn't do that ???

I disagree, Wendy. I dance as (like? *lol*) a man quite often in a beginners class, and I've found it's really helped my following skills, as I know now what makes things harder for the leader, and so I try not to do it myself!

Besides, people tell me that women make good leads, as they're more aware of what's needed.
:wink:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Lou
I disagree, Wendy. I dance as (like? *lol*) a man quite often in a beginners class, and I've found it's really helped my following skills, as I know now what makes things harder for the leader, and so I try not to do it myself!

Besides, people tell me that women make good leads, as they're more aware of what's needed.
:wink:

Maybe I'm secretly worried that women are better leads and then they'd think we didn't need them at all !!!!

Wxx

[TheTramp]

Maybe I'm secretly worried that women are better leads and then they'd think we didn't need them at all !!!!What about the men who are better followers than the women?? :na:

Steve

[Wendy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
What about the men who are better followers than the women?? :na:



Well yeh..... They could be useful if we WANTED to lead... but I think deep down we WANT to be led !!! even if we ACT like we want to lead .... and we're probably not very good at leading ..I know I'm not ...... Jeez, I'm starting to confuse myself here !!!

What DO I want ....??????

Wxxx

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Wendy
here !!!

What DO I want ....??????

Wxxx

Chocolate?:wink:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Chocolate?:wink:

You've really got me sussed haven't you ... well the bit about chocolate !!! I like to think there's more to me than that ... but then :confused: maybe there really isn't. Maybe CEROC is just a substitute for chocolate.... aaarrrggghhh - this forum is driving me crazy ..... am I still in the DJ Booth ... where am I ??????

Watch out everybody ....

don't let it happen to you too !!!!!

Wxxxxx (Munch screaming smilie)

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Wendy
Maybe CEROC is just a substitute for chocolate

There is no substitute for chocolate!!!! Especially Galaxy Hazelnut:drool:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
There is no substitute for chocolate!!!! Especially Galaxy Hazelnut:drool:

I suppose with chocolate you are never disappointed.... but then you don't get that magical moment you weren't expecting and a memory that lasts for days...weeks even........

chocolate CEROC chocolate CEROC......????

Wx

[Wendy]

Oh I forgot red shoes.....

Can a girl really have it all ???????

Wx

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Wendy
Can a girl really have it all ??????? Try this (http://www.sweetnostalgia.com/dutchocshoes.html)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Gadget
I don't understand why 'good' leads (& followers) don't go to the beginner's classes? It's the basics; what everything else is based on - it gives an excellent opportunity to hone them and get your placement right.


I'm guessing most intermediates skip beginner class because they feel like they've got the basics mastered. I'm also guessing they're mostly wrong about that.

To be fair, the beginner class isn't really about mastering the basics either - there's no time to go over all the technique in detail (although often the teacher will mention some aspect I've forgotten or missed).

I mostly use the beginner class to practice style and technique (working on staying on my toes and spotting during spins at the moment). I try not to put off the beginners though.

[Wendy]

Originally posted by DavidB
Try this (http://www.sweetnostalgia.com/dutchocshoes.html)

Jee!! You are GOOD !!!!! What are they like to dance in though ?????? And are they red ???

Wx

PS Were you the great dancer in Blackpool I was too afraid to ask to dance ???? (Yeh, like you are going to know the answer to that !!)

[Wendy]

Originally posted by gcapell
I'm guessing most intermediates skip beginner class because they feel like they've got the basics mastered. I'm also guessing they're mostly wrong about that.

To be fair, the beginner class isn't really about mastering the basics either - there's no time to go over all the technique in detail (although often the teacher will mention some aspect I've forgotten or missed).

I mostly use the beginner class to practice style and technique (working on staying on my toes and spotting during spins at the moment). I try not to put off the beginners though.

Sydney isn't near Glasgow - is it ?? :tears: :tears: :tears:

Wx

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Wendy

PS Were you the great dancer in Blackpool I was too afraid to ask to dance ????

I'll bet that was him Wendy - but he's far too modest to admit it..............if I see David when we are down in London, I'll introduce you - but only if I get to dance with him too :D

[horsey_dude]

Originally posted by DavidB
Because so few men know how to lead.




That is the kind of thing I was told when I first started that it was completely the mans responsibility etc etc... But it is not true, and by taking any responsibility away from the women so as not to hurt their feelings you take away the chance to recognise the problem and improve.

Bad habits start early and I have noticed that in the franchises where they emphasise proper technique at the beginning there is a much greater proportion of skilled dancers. It is always harder to unlearn a bad habit then to do it correctly from the start.

If being a good lead was all there was to it then any woman could walk of the street and dance like an expert from day one but this is not true.

Dancing with a women who does not folow is like driving a car where you turn the steering wheel and the car lurches around the corner when it decides or you push the brake at the lights and the car stops somewhere before the intersection (you hope). And sometimes the accelerator slams down and the car takes off in a completely unpredictable direction. If it is a car you drive all the time then you get used to its quirks and manage to cope but you will never drive anywhere where you might need to count on it because it would be dangerous (to the car and yourself).

I would be interested to hear a female perspective on this since it has mostly been the guys responding.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Sheena
I'll introduce you - but only if I get to dance with him too :D I'm having a good day today. I'm presenting my own TV show, having a 'menage a quatre' with the dirty triplets, and ladies are booking me for dances a month in advance.

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by horsey_dude

If being a good lead was all there was to it then any woman could walk of the street and dance like an expert from day one but this is not true.

I would be interested to hear a female perspective on this since it has mostly been the guys responding.

I don't think anyone said that being a good lead was ALL there was to it - :sorry obviously you have to learn how to follow that lead too - how to read and recognise the various signals that we use and it is definitely not easy if the signals are not clear.

Last night, for example, I missed a signal for a pretzel because the guy had on a really baggy shirt and his hand got caught somewhere amongst the folds......:what: he was a bit miffed, but if he had just turned around a bit further it would have been obvious what he wanted me to do............
Some of the guys put their hand behind their back for style - it doesn't mean they want you to take it though.

Having said that, dancing as a man quite often it still amazes me how some women manage to turn anti/clockwise when everything you have done previously and the momentum of the dance would lend itself to her turning the other way.

I know sometimes I anticipate a move if a guy does one that Alex (my regular dance partner) does - I relax, because I know and am really comfortable with the move - and then if he finishes it differently or does some other variation on it I can get caught out - in my defence though, if it's well led I'll catch on and respond appropriately (this is the bit where all the guys come on and tell me that I don't........
:tears: )

Wasn't much help really was I? It's late, I need chocolate and there was no dancing tonight.:sorry

[John S]

Originally posted by Sheena
in my defence though, if it's well led I'll catch on and respond appropriately (this is the bit where all the guys come on and tell me that I don't........

You know you do!! Anyway I'm always amazed at how well the vast majority of ladies cope with all the different styles and variations on moves of the guys they dance with.



I need chocolate and there was no dancing tonight.:sorry

Oh yes there was - if I can get up to Dundee you can get down to Rosyth! (Why does "chocolate" get into every thread??)

[horsey_dude]

Originally posted by Sheena

Last night, for example, I missed a signal for a pretzel because the guy had on a really baggy shirt and his hand got caught somewhere amongst the folds......:what: he was a bit miffed, but if he had just turned around a bit further it would have been obvious what he wanted me to do............


Thats a great example because there is a lot more that he could do.... I'm assuming that a pretzel is the same thing I am thinking of... If you start left hand right hand there are so many things that could be led after the initial push away. The hand behind the back makes it obvious but say the women doesn't see it (baggy shirt etc.).

What would have happened if he kept his thumb on top and raised your hand and rotated it clockwise as you came in? If you have tension in you arm it will naturally cause you to turn. At the same time he turns side on. At that moment if you are truly following you won't move any further because there is no lead to continue, you look down, and lo and behold there is his hand...

Its so easy for the guys to get lazy and lead it as step away, stick hand behind back, end of story.......

When you drive a car and a child runs out in front of you then it is instinctive to brake or swerve because there is no time to analyse the situation carefully. Its the same playing an instrument or walking and talking. We don't think, we do! Thats why I can't handle it if my partner is talking to me when I am dancing. As soon as I start to think of a reply suddenly I am out of touch with the music and everything is hard and awkward.

For me to dance well my partner needs to rock out so that the tension between us is like a rubber band stretching out and the momentum carries us on to the next move. If she is holding all of her own weight to give her the extra time to guess what I am going to do next then it is just not the same.

I know that for a lot of people it doesn't matter if they dance in time with the music or if the man gets to choose what moves they do, but it just makes it so much better if you do. I don't think that you lose the enjoyment or the social side of it. It just adds another dimension.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
~snip~I know that for a lot of people it doesn't matter if they dance in time with the music or if the man gets to choose what moves they do, but it just makes it so much better if you do.
Never mind the moves, leading or following; if you can't dance in time with the music, then none of the rest will fall into place!
"Disaster recovery"{ie when the lady does somthing un-expected/un-led*} is almost impossable if you can't find the thread of the music (or at least the same thread as your partner is dancing to).

What I have begun to noticed recently is that there is a subtle, but distinct, difference between the lady doing her own 'thang' and taking the lead - sometimes the man gets confused as to which is which, and sometimes the lady appologises for leading when you gave them the opportunity to.
Once it clicked that there was a difference, it became easier to identify and insert such things into the dance.:waycool:

{* this seems to be happening a lot more - would it be that my lead is deteriorating, or I am trying different moves, or ladys are becoming more relaxed with me and not looking for the variations?}

[Divissima]

Originally posted by John S
(Why does "chocolate" get into every thread??)

Just to show that we ladies aren't always [I] thinking about chocolate and/or shoes (or even chocolate shoes - thanks for that DavidB).....

Lead and follow is the toughest part of modern jive, for me anyway. It is such a finely-balanced instrument - even with the same partner (my competition partner) who you'd think could lead me and I could follow consisently well we have off nights. Sometimes it can be something entirely external to the dance - say if there's a couple nearby I suddenly spot moving towards us at great speed who my partner hasn't seen, I'll adjust my trajectory but my partner, unawares, will find that I'm not where he's led me to be.

Another problem with modern jive is that some moves aren't led so much as signalled (for example, some lifts, drops or speccy moves). Once the man has used a recognised signal, the lady knows the man is relying on her to know what to do and commit to follow it through. So even with a familiar partner, where you are more likely to be doing this kind of move, there's a problem if a man decides, for whatever reason, to scrap or modify a move part way through. I tend not to like this kind of move too much for that reason although there's no real way around it.

Amir once said (in the context of tango but equally applicable in many ways to jive) that a lady does nothing. She simply waits. She doesn't try to anticipate or lead, she waits to be led. It is easier said than done :wink: It is part of the human brain to make sense of information which has gaps in it - so if you are being led a move you think you know, it is natural to assume you know what's coming next. I sometimes find this tendency has switched on while I'm dancing - so much to concentrate on all the time, have to concentrate on switching it off again and really waiting and following. But where would be the fun if there wasn't another aspect to improve.

Sorry, this is turning into a stream of consciousness post, but I'll press on as I've been reading this thread with great interest wanting to reply...

Final thoughts are on balance. It is hard for a lady to follow a lead if her balance is all wrong. You can't step to the right if your weight is already on your right foot (you'd fall over, or stumble inelegantly). I'm always trying to improve my balance and my partner is always trying to improve reading where my weight is distributed (no cheeky comments about hip measurements or thighs, please, I only mentioned chocolate once, drat!, twice, three times if you count chocolate shoes, - arrgggh!! four times, then ). So the lady is trying to listen to the lead, but the man is trying to listen to the lady's momentum and weight distribution so he knows if she is poised to move in the direction he wants her to go.

Horsey-dude, is this helpful or just way off beam?
:sorry :sorry :wink:

[Bill]

I agree entirely with most of the remarks made at the beginning of the thread and having danced as a woman it's sometimes amazing that women do follow as well as they do :D

I've heard quite a number of women commenting on the lack of lead from some men but as folk said earlier they don't like to say anything to the man. That does mean that he won't improve or that every new woman will have to adjust to his leadless dancing. One option is of course to tell the teacher - and I don't mean to go and 'clipe' as we say up here - but to get the teacher to dance with the man ( easier if it's a female teacher perhaps:wink: ) and she can have a polite word. If not a teacher perhaps an experienced taxi dancer ???

As David says .........a good 'strong' lead is essential - and he has no problems, not because he's big and strong ( which he is !!) but because he leads clearly. If it's a new move or unusual then there's no problem in taking time to go over the move or discuss it after the dance.

I've only ever danced with one woman who almost appeared to deliberately disregard the lead and the tempo of the song in an attempt to do her own 'thang' which made the dance an absolute nightmare. I do love it when women improvise or use breaks to their full potential !!!!!!!!

I don't think a class is the best place to go over a lot of lead and follow.......that's what the workshops are for and the blindfold activity in the beginners class worked. Maybe we should try that again !!!!:sorry :wink: Anyone got a blindfold :drool: :na:

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Bill
[: Anyone got a blindfold :drool: :na: [/B]

er yes, but I've never used it for dancing:devil: :D :wink:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Chicklet
er yes, but I've never used it for dancing:devil: :D :wink:


:what: ....................erm.........can't think of what else it could be used for :innocent: but it does make you follow well doesn't it :wink:



oh..........and back on topic !!:rolleyes: .....one good thing about experienced dancers going to the beginners class is that not only do they help the new dancers but as Franck said on another thread ages ago...it gives 'experienced' dancers the opportunity to try out some style on just basic moves.

I was demo-ing with Lisa last night and when we did an armjive I realised I was doing something a little different with my feet so I concentrated on that rather than just the arms. Perhaps I shoudl have concentrated a little more on the intermediate class though :sorry

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Chicklet
er yes, but I've never used it for dancing:devil: :D :wink:

Ah yes,...that'll be the one you bought at the same time as the furry handcuffs...you little minx:wink:

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Ah yes,...that'll be the one you bought at the same time as the furry handcuffs...you little minx:wink:

nah - I use the scarf to wave at the dirty triplets at the airport - and it was them that left the furry handcuffs!!!!!


Seriously I would love to try blindfold follow to see how I do.

And am always delighted to see the nonbeginner gents in the line up as you just never know what little top tip they might add in to what the teacher suggests!

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Divissima


Amir once said (in the context of tango but equally applicable in many ways to jive) that a lady does nothing. She simply waits. She doesn't try to anticipate or lead, she waits to be led. It is easier said than done :wink: It is part of the human brain to make sense of information which has gaps in it - so if you are being led a move you think you know, it is natural to assume you know what's coming next. I sometimes find this tendency has switched on while I'm dancing - so much to concentrate on all the time, have to concentrate on switching it off again and really waiting and following. But where would be the fun if there wasn't another aspect to improve.



Perfectly put. I'm really going to try hard to switch off tonight and see it anyone notices the difference. It reminds of shiatsu when you need to have "ragdoll arms" ... took me weeks to get that "working" .... "ragdoll brain " is what I'm after....

Wx

[Bill]

Originally posted by Wendy
. It reminds of shiatsu when you need to have "ragdoll arms" ... took me weeks to get that "working" .... "ragdoll brain " is what I'm after....

Wx

Wendy and ragdoll........ don't think the two go together :rolleyes: :wink: . You're far too good to be considered a ragdoll. I can think of a few terms or adjectives but this isn't one!!:D


I have heard the term used for a particular dancer and it's not meant to be flattering!
:sick:

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Bill
. Perhaps I shoudl have concentrated a little more on the intermediate class though :sorry [/B]


got to ask - what happened to prompt a sorry smilie???

just being terribly nosey today:innocent:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Bill
Wendy and ragdoll........ don't think the two go together :rolleyes: :wink: . You're far too good to be considered a ragdoll. I can think of a few terms or adjectives but this isn't one!!:D




Not the body just the brain !! Hopefully the body will still be very much alive !!!



Wxxx

[Bill]

Originally posted by Chicklet
got to ask - what happened to prompt a sorry smilie???

just being terribly nosey today:innocent:


Despite Lisa's best efforts I managed to muck up one of the moves as we demoed on stage and although it wasn't bad as went through the routine I didn't make it look quite as it should.

C'est la vie I suppose. I'll try to do better tomorrow night :rolleyes:

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by John S


Oh yes there was - if I can get up to Dundee you can get down to Rosyth!

Sorry John- I should have made myself more clear.............there was no dancing for ME on Tuesday night :tears: :tears: but you're right, it's a long time since I've been to Rosyth, I'll need to rectify that :sorry

[Dancing Veela]

Originally posted by Bill

I've only ever danced with one woman who almost appeared to deliberately disregard the lead and the tempo of the song in an attempt to do her own 'thang' which made the dance an absolute nightmare.

Oh but Bill we were both just learning then !!!!:wink:

DVx

[Bill]

Originally posted by Dancing Veela
Oh but Bill we were both just learning then !!!!:wink:

DVx


:D :na: ...... but even when I gave you the opportunity to do your own thing ( or when yoiu decided it was time to :eek: ) you always danced on the beat.

And of course as you are so good whatever you did was infinitely better than the move I had in mind :wink: :D Looking forward to our next dance :cheers:

[Debster]

OK, considering it is 2am now, having got addicted to reading this thread, I'll add a couple of my own thoughts from a followers perspective...

Not only is it difficult to follow because a few guys are not good at leading, but naturally leads are also done differently by many guys... just ask the third guy I thought was leading me into a headchopper the other night :( (at least the first two were leading a headchopper and came away unscathed:) )

I also don't like to be given the lead - which is quite different to being given the chance to do my 'thang' now and then when it fits to the music. Which is why I am disappointed when a guy accuses me of leading him. I never intentionally do that (unless he can't get the beat - in which case the guy has never raised the issue of me leading anyway...).

I have been accused of leading when my follow of his lead has not gone as he planned. Usually because he expected me to 'know' rather than 'feel' his lead, and when what he leads is contradictory I'll go for feel every time. The brain is always disengaged!

Is this making sense?
Must be time for bed.

Great descriptions from DavidB BTW - a leading legend.

[John S]

Originally posted by Debster

Great descriptions from DavidB BTW - a leading legend.

Just a thought - only the lady who is dancing with the guy really knows how good or bad a leader he is - not even the guy himself will know, as he has probably never been led.

So perhaps there's a case for guys to have a few dances (as followers) with some acknowledged experts at leading (as judged by the ladies) so that we know what it feels like to be well-led.

I know it conjures up the image of a gay bar in San Francisco, but perhaps even a "men-only" dance or two at a regular weeknight or party might work - the rule could be that the person who has been dancing longer is the leader.

Get the cameras ready, girls!

[Wendy]

Originally posted by John S

So perhaps there's a case for guys to have a few dances (as followers) with some acknowledged experts at leading (as judged by the ladies) so that we know what it feels like to be well-led.

Get the cameras ready, girls!

My favourite guy dancers can dance with guys - it's wonderful to watch !!! Fun !! and dare I say it kinda sexy at the same time :devil:

Wx

[Dance Demon]

I have tried dancing as a follower, and must confess:sorry that I found it very dificult. Maybe with a lot of practice I would get used to it, but probably still wouldn't be a good follower. Total respect to all you ladies out there who try to follow loads of different guys with different styles every night you dance. That in itself takes a lot of skill....and patience:D

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Total respect to all you ladies out there who try to follow loads of different guys with different styles every night you dance. That in itself takes a lot of skill....and patience:D

Yep and even a certain degree of brain power!! this relates of course to the quote by some **** who said women did not need to use their brains to follow:reallymad

Well said DD

Sandy:wink:

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
I have tried dancing as a follower, and must confess:sorry that I found it very dificult. Maybe with a lot of practice I would get used to it, but probably still wouldn't be a good follower. Total respect to all you ladies out there who try to follow loads of different guys with different styles every night you dance. That in itself takes a lot of skill....and patience:D

Thanks for telling me to shut up and stop worrying about missing your lead the other night. Maybe I've been dancing with too many perfectionists recently and had forgotten that it was all supposed to be for fun!:kiss:

[TheTramp]

I don't know Sandy. When I'm following, I try to switch off my brain, and just follow my arm. Which I suppose still does take my brain, but I'm just trying not to think conciously.

And Aleks. I totally agree with DD. Ladies who are dancing with me, aren't allowed to ever say sorry. It is all suppose to be fun, and also, when it comes down to it, we're leading, so if anything goes wrong, then it's our fault for not leading well enough (or not picking the moves we do to reflect the ability of the person we're dancing with).

STeve

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Aleks
Thanks for telling me to shut up and stop worrying about missing your lead the other night. Maybe I've been dancing with too many perfectionists recently and had forgotten that it was all supposed to be for fun!:kiss:

No problems Aleks.....:D
My main motivation for going dancing is to escape the worries and stresses of everyday life, :what: and if you start taking the dancing bit too seriously' it becomes another stress factor. The freestyle sections of any dance night should be used to get your happy head on and enjoy (IMHO) Re perfectionists....where else have you been dancing recently to find a perfect dancer?......even the very best have off nights:wink: :kiss:

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Re perfectionists....where else have you been dancing recently to find a perfect dancer?......even the very best have off nights:wink: :kiss:

I refuse to name any names :wink: .....but I have been spending time with dancers who would like it "just so".
No-one is perfect. Maybe I just give myself a hard time about it!

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Aleks
I refuse to name any names :wink: .....but I have been spending time with dancers who would like it "just so".
No-one is perfect. Maybe I just give myself a hard time about it!

I find the "perfect" dancers just smile when I get it oh sooo wrong !!! Makes it quite fun !!! The other "perfectionists" you talk about would be better dancing by themselves as only then would they meet their own high standards !!

Wx

[Gadget]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ladies who are dancing with me, aren't allowed to ever say sorry. It is all suppose to be fun, and also, when it comes down to it, we're leading, so if anything goes wrong, then it's our fault for not leading well enough (or not picking the moves we do to reflect the ability of the person we're dancing with).
With you 110% - I really don't like it when a lady appologises; it means I've screwed up somewhere and they've thought that it was them.:sick:
I prefer a laugh or smile/grin when they wonder what was meant to hapen and see where the recovery goes to :grin: (If I do it well enough, I can even pass it off as an intentional move! :D)

[BlueThreeFour]

[The other "perfectionists" you talk about would be better dancing by themselves as only then they would meet their own high standards !!

Wx [/B][/QUOTE]
Sometimes when I dance with you I feel as if you are dancing with yourself!!

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Blue34
[The other "perfectionists" you talk about would be better dancing by themselves as only then they would meet their own high standards !!

Wx
Sometimes when I dance with you I feel as if you are dancing with yourself!! [/B][/QUOTE]

Yip !!!

(Well what's a girl to do if her partner spends the entire dance looking at HIMSELF in the mirror ?????)

Wxxx

[BlueThreeFour]

Originally posted by Wendy
Sometimes when I dance with you I feel as if you are dancing with yourself!!

Yip !!!

Wxxx [/B][/QUOTE]

That's only when are mirrors around!!

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Blue34
Yip !!!

Wxxx

That's only when are mirrors around!! [/B][/QUOTE]

Edited my post before you sent that !!!


lol !!!!

Wxxxx

[Bill]

Originally posted by Aleks
I refuse to name any names :wink: .....but I have been spending time with dancers who would like it "just so".
No-one is perfect. Maybe I just give myself a hard time about it!


Sounds as if you do !:D

Sometimes the dancers who want the moves 'just so' are the very ones who can't actually lead or follow very well. It's useful for all of us to be reminded from time to time that we are doing it for fun !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However,.........when it goes wrong on stage it can be a tad embarrassing:sorry :sick: For the second class in a row I kind of messed up with Lisa. She started the beginners class with one move and I started it with the first move from the Intermediate class which we had just run through. Luckily Lisa remained composed while I tried to think abotu hwat I shoudl ahve eben doing. :(

Think we just about got away with it :rolleyes: but it was still fun and everyone coped.

AS for men dancing as followers - a good idea and one that several men have suggested before. Strange that our less macho culture is more afraid of men/men dancing yet more macho cultures appear to have no problems with it. Don't male salsa, tango and flamenco dancers start out dancing with each other until they are good enough to dance with a woman ????

Anyway, only another couple of hours and then on holiday for 2 weeks. :na: :D :waycool:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Bill

Anyway, only another couple of hours and then on holiday for 2 weeks. :na: :D :waycool:

Glasgow on the 12th will be on your schedule I hope ????

Wx

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Bill
Anyway, only another couple of hours and then on holiday for 2 weeks. :na: :D :waycool: Oooooh, holiday!!! Me too, but only one week in Egypt for me. No dancing, though. Purely a sun, sea & diving trip. Hopefully the war stays put and doesn't make it's way west-wards.:(

Bill, it would be nice to round up a few Forum friends for when you & Fran are in London, so please keep everyone posted as to where & when. The usual haunts (feedback please, London cerocers) are Jongleurs or Finchley on Mondays, choice of Hipsters/Fulham/Jive Bar/O2 on Tuesdays, Hipsters/Ashtons/Jive Bar on Wednesdays, Fulham or Jive Bar on Thursdays and Casbah or St Marys Fridays.

I'd love to keep your visit a secret so's I can have you all to myself (well, of course Fran has first refusal :wink: ), but that would be selfish!:D

LilyB

[Bill]

Originally posted by Wendy
Glasgow on the 12th will be on your schedule I hope ????

Wx

Would love to .........but not sure exactly where I'll be then !!!:rolleyes: I'll be back from Barcelona but may have to get back to Aberdeen to feed the mog and give him a cuddle :nice:

And then it's London and Manchester and the lovely Lily and Davidb have kindly offered to put us up so I'll be down south from Monday 14th till Sunday 20th.


Can't wait........................ but really hope to get back to Glasgow soon for some more fab dances.:cheers: :D

[Wendy]

I can wait....

Wxxxx

[Bill]

Originally posted by LilyB
Bill, it would be nice to round up a few Forum friends for when you & Fran are in London, so please keep everyone posted as to where & when. The usual haunts (feedback please, London cerocers) are Jongleurs or Finchley on Mondays, choice of Hipsters/Fulham/Jive Bar/O2 on Tuesdays, Hipsters/Ashtons/Jive Bar on Wednesdays, Fulham or Jive Bar on Thursdays and Casbah or St Marys Fridays.

LilyB

OOOOOOh..........so much choice !!!!!!!!!! :D Would love to go to Hipsters one or both nights ( Tues/Wed) but as my seminar won't finish till late on the MOnday I may not have time for dancing on Monday :tears:

Will be heading up to Manchester ( well Hale) to take advanatge of Laura's hospitality and then to Stockport for their party on the Saturday. Great venue and wonderful dancers..............I can't believe how excited I'm getting :grin:

Enjoy Egypt Lily and see you on the 14th. have a good easter everyone :na: :cheers:

[TheTramp]

but may have to get back to Aberdeen to feed the mog and give him a cuddleDavid Hancock or Niall??

Steve

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Bill

However,.........when it goes wrong on stage it can be a tad embarrassing:sorry :sick: For the second class in a row I kind of messed up with Lisa. She started the beginners class with one move and I started it with the first move from the Intermediate class which we had just run through. Luckily Lisa remained composed while I tried to think abotu hwat I shoudl ahve eben doing. :(
Think we just about got away with it :rolleyes: but it was still fun and everyone coped.



Yes siree........just what I said, even the best have an off night:wink: Just think how all those watching felt when they realised that even old BTC Bill can make mistakes:D but it was still fun, which is the important thing...and I bet it didn't spoil anyones enjoyment of the night:waycool:

[Bill]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill
[B]Sounds as if you do !:D


Luckily Lisa remained composed while I tried to think abotu hwat I shoudl ahve eben doing. :(



Mmmmmmmm....just how many mistakes can a person make in one short sentence :confused: :eek:

If a student had handed this in to me I'd have sent it back for remediation. At least now I have an excuse....it's late, I've been drinking and the mog seems keen to type this for me:na: he might make a better job of it ! :)

[Heather]

:D :D :D At least you noticed your mistakes!!!
:kiss:
Heather.

[Carla]

Originally posted by Bill
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill
[B]I've been drinking and the mog seems keen to type this for me:na: he might make a better job of it ! :)

You have a pussy?

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Carla
You have a pussy?

Well Bill?? Straightforward question???:D

Sandy:wink:

[John S]

Sandy, given that yours spins round and round in a manic fashion, I thought you would have stayed off this thread!
:wink:

[Sandy]

Originally posted by John S
Sandy, given that yours spins round and round in a manic fashion, I thought you would have stayed off this thread!
:wink:

:what: I beg yer puddin! Mine was sedated and put down long ago!:devil: However, they do have more than 1 life so who knows!

Sandy:wink:

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Sandy
:what: I beg yer puddin! Mine was sedated and put down long ago!:devil: However, they do have more than 1 life so who knows!

Sandy:wink:

The one in your avatar looks pretty lively to me ?? Hope you live in a huge house so you have lots of room to swing it !!!


Wx

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Wendy
The one in your avatar looks pretty lively to me ?? Hope you live in a huge house so you have lots of room to swing it !!!


Wx

Oh no probs Wendy, it's well controlled and behaves purrfectly!!

As long as it gets to go mad occasionally!

[Emma]

Originally posted by John S


So perhaps there's a case for guys to have a few dances (as followers) with some acknowledged experts at leading (as judged by the ladies) so that we know what it feels like to be well-led.



Er...unfashionably On-topic :wink:, but conversely I think that dancing as a lead occasionally has improved my following, (well I hope so anyhow) because it has given me a much better idea of what the leader requires of the follower. Something along the lines of 'I see and I learn, I do and I understand'.

Anyway, back to cats! :devil: ;)

[Dance Demon]

Heres something that I often wonder about.......If I am dancing with a woman, and she is not particularly good at dancing in time with the music, I try to make my lead a bit stronger, so that she will follow more in time with the music and me.........but what is it like for a woman who is being led by a man who is not dancing in time to the music?............can you influence his timing by trying to dance on beat..?:confused:

[Emma]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
can you influence his timing by trying to dance on beat..?:confused:

:nice: You can try....

I have danced with one or two men who have 'issues' with the beat. I've found that the best way to avoid a wrenched shoulder and accusations of leading in these cases is to ignore the music where possible and follow them off beat...after all..they are leading! :wink: :what: :devil:

[Jon]

Too right we are leading Emma wish you'd tell some ladies I've danced with this as sometimes it feels like I'm an extension to their arm.

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Emma
:nice: You can try....

I have danced with one or two men who have 'issues' with the beat. I've found that the best way to avoid a wrenched shoulder and accusations of leading in these cases is to ignore the music where possible and follow them off beat...after all..they are leading! :wink: :what: :devil:

Yeh but,..don't you find it really difficult not dancing to the beat?
I find it really hard to ignore the music when dancing :confused:

[Divissima]

it's a tough one - but I have to admit that if a man is dancing otherwise than in time with the music, I tend to do what I can to bring him onto the beat.

I know someone will tell me that the man is supposed to lead - but I can't help it. If I hear a beat, I naturally follow it. The difficult part is where the music has more than one potential beat (the usual beat and a regular off-beat) - tonight I had a partner who could only hear the off-beat whereas I could hear the beat much more strongly. It was a struggle dancing to his lead as I kept wanting to dance to what, for me, was the stronger and more natural beat.

[Gadget]

I've had a couple of dances, with excelent partners, that were more hard work than free flowing because I was picking up on one beat and she was picking up on another; both of us were trying to dance to the other's rhythm - just a mess. I have danced with the same partner to another song on the same night and have it just flow sweetly.

IMHO, I think that the man should addapt to the lady's rhythm and emphisis on beat: Showing off your partner is what a majority of moves are intended to do - it's easier to work with them than against them.

[PeterL]

I agree that dancing to the beat is important.
However from personal experience I know that when first beggining I was so bad at leading and knowing the moves that thinking about/following a beat was just one extra complication.

To learn to dance a guy first has to learn and feel comfortable with leading moves, once they can do this without thinking about it, the beat comes.

It is worrying to think that they guys still learning to lead are being led because they cannot follow a beat.

We all have to learn and if too many ladies had obviously taken to leading me when I bagan because I wasn't following the beat , my confidence would have been at rock bottom and I would have given up.

The best way to deal with anybody not following a beat is to comment on something they do well and up there confidence.

:)

[Divissima]

Originally posted by PeterL
To learn to dance a guy first has to learn and feel comfortable with leading moves, once they can do this without thinking about it, the beat comes.


That's one way to learn. There are other beginners who hear the beat and fit their movements to it (whether they are moves as such or just movement). So long as they are still leading, the lady can follow, whether it is a recognisable 'move' or not...

[/QUOTE]
It is worrying to think that they guys still learning to lead are being led because they cannot follow a beat.[/QUOTE]

Dear heaven, man, you worry waaay too much. Can it really be good for you?? ;) Besides, it isn't necessarily leading a man to try to bring him on-beat. You can do it my slowing down your spins to end on a beat (or, indeed, speeding them up) or by increasing your resistance to slow things down just enough to catch the beat. You don't have to force the man into anything - and I think it can help a nervous beginner/improver (call them what you will) to appreciate that by giving a move (and your partner) a bit of freedom, it (and she) can blossom :)

[/QUOTE]
We all have to learn and if too many ladies had obviously taken to leading me when I bagan because I wasn't following the beat , my confidence would have been at rock bottom and I would have given up.

:) [/QUOTE]

Thank heaven they didn't and you didn't :waycool: [B][I]

[Aleks]

Pretending to enjoy the dance when my partner is having difficulty finding a/the/any beat is the toughest part of being a taxi dancer for me. My aim when dancing/taxi-ing with any beginner is to help them get to a point where the moves become automatic (almost) enough for them to feel the beat. If by the end of my 3 minutes with them they are getting there my job as taxi is worthwhile.

As for dancing with a more experienced partner, even if they are having difficulty with (my interpretation) of the beat, I tend to dance to the beat I hear, whilst following their lead/moves. Mostly after a few moves we find a beat that suits us both, making it feel a lot less like hard work and much more fun.

However, I know I am guilty of occasionally insisting that the leader moves to MY beat! :wink: :D

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget
IMHO, I think that the man should addapt to the lady's rhythm and emphisis on beat:
I'm all for adjusting to a different emphasis or taking multiple beats for a move, but I certainly don't think that you should follow a partner off-beat (ie, the music is 140bpm and they're dancing 120bpm).


Originally posted by Gadget
Showing off your partner is what a majority of moves are intended to do - it's easier to work with them than against them.
It certainly is, but I find it near-impossible to dance off-beat, and I'm sure they look better when you guide them onto it rather than let them drift along to the mystery rhythm they can apparently hear.

[Emma]

I too find it extremely difficult to ignore the music and dance off-beat, and will definitely employ techniques such as spinning faster or slower or not quite catching a hand until it is actually on the beat :)..what I wouldn't attempt to do is to try and dance on beat while the man was actually holding onto me. It goes against good following in my opinion (even if it is painful from a musical point of view! :sick: ).

I've found that adopting this technique has improved my *dancing enjoyment* cos there are some guys out there who are lovely dancers, but just dancin' to a beat all their own! :nice:

I did have a bit of trouble the other evening when a guy repeatedly asked me why he was getting ahead of everyone in the class. In the end I had to tell him it was because he was off-beat. When he asked me what he could do about it I was a bit stumped. The beat comes naturally to me. How do you teach someone rhythm? It seemed a bit crass just to say 'listen to the music'! :what: :grin:

[Wendy]

I find it very hard to dance with someone who doesn't hear the (my??) beat !!! And take every opportunity to get him back on track .. is that bad ????

I have found that some beginners miss out bits of moves which mucks up the beat. i.e they spin too early on the catapult or return you too early on a first move etc. As a taxi I take the time to go through the move during the intermediate class and it's great when they get it right.

Wxxx

[TheTramp]

How do you teach someone rhythm? It seemed a bit crass just to say 'listen to the music'! Like all skills, I think that it's possible to learn this one. Whether or not you'd want to take the time with a complete beginner that you don't know is a different story entirely.

First up, I'd ask them to show me where they think the beat in the music is (by tapping on a table or something in time to the music).

Then I'd ask them (assuming that it's wrong), where they heard that in the music.

Then I'd show them where I heard the beat, and try to get them to tap along with me in time to the beat, and then without me.

Then I'd try a different song. And then another.....etc.

Start off with easy tracks that have well defined beats, and also vary the speeds.

Like I said, I don't think anyone would want to spend that much time at a dance night with someone who was a complete beginner. So it'd only happen if she was cute, and willing to come round my place sometime when there wasn't any dancing on :D

Steve

[Chicklet]

[
So it'd only happen if she was cute, and willing to come round my place sometime when there wasn't any dancing on :D

Steve [/B][/QUOTE]


Throw in some Haagen Daas and we might have a deal:D


I actually beg to differ on this one - not convinced that beat and rhythm can be taught because there's a such a high proportion of instinct involved - I think this one's a talent rather than a skill.


I think someone who can hear the basic beat can be taught / led / trained into playing with it more than just stepping on the beat (or deliberately and rhythmically off the beat) but the ability to hear it in the first place has to come from within.

Anybody any experience of watching a newcomer develop from not hearing it to hearing it ?

C

[TheTramp]

Okie. The Haagen Daas is yours. I didn't know that you had a problem finding the beat though!! :D

I still think that it can be taught. To a degree. Okie, a person who has difficulty finding a beat in music is probably never going to play in the London Philharmonic. But I'm sure that they could be taught to recognise it to a degree that they can find it to dance to.

When I move to Scotland, you can find me a cute female who doesn't know where the beat is, and I'll try to show her it! And the beat too. :na:

Steve

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Chicklet

Anybody any experience of watching a newcomer develop from not hearing it to hearing it ?

C

Can't say I've noticed... but I have noticed nonbeginners who still don't hear it !!!

Am with Chicklet on this one. Surely it comes from within ??? Maybe they have an irregular heartbeat, or perhaps their mother's was, so now they are confused :confused: . In olden times they'd have been gobbled up by tigers cos they'd misinterpret drum messages from their tribesmen ie "How's it hanging John ? Fancy a pint ??" when it should be "Run for your life there's a ***%%$$$ great big tiger behind that tree !!!"

Wxxx

[DavidB]

I see a lot of people dancing off beat, and not just beginners. But I doubt many of those people realise they are doing it, or know it is wrong. I don't think I've ever seen a teacher explain what is right and what is wrong.

It just seems to be one of those things (like footwork) that never gets taught, but you are just expected to do. And generally this approach seems to work. I can remember the confusion the first time I did Cha Cha Cha, when the teacher had to explain about dancing on the '2', not the '1'. So perhaps Ceroc have the right approach, given their primary aim of getting people dancing and having fun.

As a man, it rarely affects me if the lady has a different interpretation of the beat. I'll start counting to myself first (to make sure that I haven't got it wrong!), and then do something like a double return that gives me a chance to adjust the lady's timing. However I would imagine it must drive the ladies mad when a man gets it consistently wrong.

I've got no idea how to teach it.

David

[Emma]

Originally posted by Wendy

Am with Chicklet on this one. Surely it comes from within ???

We need a music teacher (that's a hint, Claire :) )

Funnily enough I was chatting to my Mum about dancing and beat the other day - she's an accompanist (er..sp?), and she was saying that in her experience there are lots of musicians who have a lot of trouble dancing to the beat. Though clearly they can spot a beat as they are making their living playing in time (one hopes!!).

[Wendy]

Originally posted by DavidB
I would imagine it must drive the ladies mad when a man gets it consistently wrong.


Yip !!! It's awful - worse than BO, worse than bad breath, worse than lycra !!!!

Wxxx

[Emma]

Originally posted by Wendy
worse than bad breath
Wxxx

Nooh..bad breath is the worst! :) I find it much harder to dance holding my breath than I do to ignore the music ;)

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Wendy
Yip !!! It's awful - worse than BO, worse than bad breath, worse than lycra !!!!

Wxxx


oohhh decisions, is a man with no beat really worse than a man in lycra????????????????????not sure

cos you can just look away from a man with no beat after the dance but it's very very very very difficult to stop er staring at a man in lycra all night, and I don't mean in appreciation!!!

do we need a poll???

what's the worst thing to have to suffer?:D

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Emma
Nooh..bad breath is the worst! :) I find it much harder to dance holding my breath than I do to ignore the music ;)

Yeh OK. But you can always offer them a mint ??? And BO is pretty bad too. (Sweat is fine of course !!! ) And lycra is actually OK cos of some of the people who wear it I suppose.... but not getting the beat is still horrendous !!!!

Wxxx

PS Looking forward to seeing you on Saturday !!!

[Emma]

I'm now imagining a man with bad breath and BO dancing off-beat in a lycra vest. Oh! and with long nails... :what: :what: :what: :what:

I think I need medication....

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Chicklet
oohhh decisions, is a man with no beat really worse than a man in lycra????????????????????not sure

cos you can just look away from a man with no beat after the dance but it's very very very very difficult to stop er staring at a man in lycra all night, and I don't mean in appreciation!!!

do we need a poll???

what's the worst thing to have to suffer?:D

We keep posting at the same time !!!!

Yes a poll would be good.

BO and alcohol breath with a thumb gripping you - that's pretty bad... and him dancing to Boogie Woogie Chu Chu Train/Bugle Boy thingy while the music is really Cantaloop !!! AAAAArrrrrgggghhhh!

Wx

[TheTramp]

We need a music teacher (that's a hint, Claire )Ummm. Will I do? I did a music degree, and have taught piano and voice :D

Failing that, there's always Lorna. Or CJ.

Steve

[Emma]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. Will I do? I did a music degree, and have taught piano and voice :D



You certainly will duck, that was just a heavily hint-laden post for a certain personage who reads but does not post (and who is gonna kill me when I see her tonight :what: )

[Dance Demon]

Well.. I must confess that I find it incredibly difficult to dance off beat. There are one or two ladies who, when I dance with them I know that we are most probably going to have a crap dance , simply because we hear a different beat. I must say though that it is an unfortunate problem because I feel that I can't make the experience of the dance good for her, if I am only going through the motions because I cant get into the same rhythm.
I sometimes watch guys who seem to have an endless repertoir of moves, but seem unconscious of the music. This must be quite diconcerting for the lady who is dancing with them.
I think that rhythm is a hard thing to teach someone who doesn't have any, though Steve's method looks interesting. Would probably make a good wee workshop, though it might be hard to get people on it, as they would have to admit that they had no rhythm:what:

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
It just seems to be one of those things (like footwork) that never gets taught, but you are just expected to do. And generally this approach seems to work.

I've got no idea how to teach it. Interesting discussion... and I agree that teaching 'rhythm' is difficult, but I disagree that it cannot be taught, for some people it will be instinctive, but anyone can learn to pick up the beat.

Firstly though, I would like to say that understanding the beat is like having a sense of humour...... everyone *think* they do, including those who (obviously) have it wrong, they actually think they are dancing to the *only* righteous beat in the music, and that their partner just does not have it.

Therefore the real difficulty is in getting people to become aware they may be wrong without insulting them.

There are exceptions to the above, some beginners are so focused on getting the move right, they really are not thinking / paying attention to the beat.

The best way I have found to help with the beat is to get everyone to do a very simple sway from side to side just before I start counting 5 6 7 8 before we practise a move / routine... it gives people a chance to become aware of how the beat feels without worrying (yet) about the moves.
during workshop, I would use a simple move like the manspin and repeat it over and over, while marking the beat for everyone...

I believe finding the beat is all about knowing what to listen to in the track, and some tracks are much more confusing than others...
First you must listen to the music...

Franck.

P.S. It is another skill altogether to be able to lead your partner into a counter beat deliberately, for effect and style, and it can be a lot of fun...

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck
P.S. It is another skill altogether to be able to lead your partner into a counter beat deliberately, for effect and style, and it can be a lot of fun... I probably do change the timing sometimes when I improvise. But I would change back as soon as I do moves again. I couldn't change timings for a regular move - it would just feel too unnatural - a bit like trying to do a waltz to 4/4 time music.

(Having said that I do another dance (Hustle) that is based on a 3-count, but is done to 4/4 music, and still feels ok. But it only suits music where the emphasis on the beats is equal.)

Be careful trying it in a competition though - a judge could mark you down for dancing out of time.

David

[Gadget]

One other small point about dancing on the beat: I find it looks/feels "crude"{?} when my partner feels the need to 'bop' on every beat - especially when some moves feel better when they slide smoothly over a few beats.

[Amir]

Hello, its my first time trying this so I hope this ends up the in right place. Warms my heart that there is such interest in the area of leading and following, as I think its one of the hardest things to do well and perhaps not taught as much as it should be. So thought I'd let you all know I'm doing a free workshop on the subject this Sunday, the 13th, at Kent House, Hammersmith, London, from 12pm. The workshop will probably be quite small since as you've noted earlier, there aren't many people dedicated to improving in this area. This will hopefully enable me to provide as much individual coaching and feedback as possible, as I believe this is the only way you can really improve in this area...

Happy leading and following....!

Amir.

[Wendy]

Originally posted by amir
I'm doing a free workshop on the subject this Sunday

What a star - I'm impressed... that's dedication for you !!!



there aren't many people dedicated to improving in this area. This will hopefully enable me to provide as much individual coaching and feedback as possible, as I believe this is the only way you can really improve in this area...

Yes there are !!!! Me for one !!!!

And a VERY warm sunny Scottish welcome to the Forum !!!!


:cheers:

Wx

[Sandy]

Originally posted by amir
Hello, its my first time trying this so I hope this ends up the in right place.
Amir.

Welcome aboard.

Sandy (Aberdeen):grin:

[Will]

Originally posted by amir
Hello, its my first time trying this so I hope this ends up the in right place.....

Amir.

The problem with these forums is that they can attract "Riff-Raff". There is no real way of seperating the serious dancers from the 'fly-by-night' Kiwi time wasters that New Zealand seems to have more than it's fair share off. :grin::wink:

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

It is another skill altogether to be able to lead your partner into a counter beat deliberately, for effect and style, and it can be a lot of fun...

And furthermore picking up syncopations and/or dancing to the off-beat in more interesting music (e.g. swing)... ducks for cover.... can make it a truly amazing dance if you have good connection and a polished lead & follow...

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
ducks for coverNo need to duck - I agree with you. A lot of Swing music does suit dancing on the off-beat.

But does that mean it doesn't suit dancing on the on-beat???

David

[Bill]

Originally posted by Carla
You have a pussy?

Hello...just back from Barcelona.it was fab...... thanks for asking :D :rolleyes:

And yes I do have a pussy - very shy, going grey ands lets you know when he's happy :grin:


and as for leading and dancing to the beat............. well I realise people can hear different beats so sometimes neither dancer is 'wrong' but they need to decide on which beat to follow. I suppose people can learn to some degree but in a class they can have the beats counted for them but if it's not a 'simple' beat then what do they do in freestyle ??

There's a;so a difference between leaders who can't hear the beat and those who hear it but ignore it in an effort to get through every move they know in each song so end up wrenching the followers arm about in an attempt to do the moves - regardless of how appropriate it/they might be. :sick: :reallymad


Een if Franck and Scot ofered workshops up here I would imagine the men who turned up would be those who already lead well and hear the beat but want to improve rather than the men who do neither but think they do !!!!:rolleyes: :what:

Anyway, have some ironing to do before I pack and get ready for week 2 of the hols.......... London and Manchester here I come.....:cheers: :D

[Lindsay]

Originally posted by DavidB
A lot of Swing music does suit dancing on the off-beat.
But does that mean it doesn't suit dancing on the on-beat???
David

Nope- suits both! Variety is the spice...

Lindy Hop tends to be danced in 6 or 8 beat phrases so it's nice to fomulate your own patterns within that, such as syncopation, changing beats, pausing for a few beats, etc. For me, it then looks and feels much more interesting, and there is loads of room for expression on both sides.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Lindsay
Nope- suits both! Variety is the spice...

Lindy Hop tends to be danced in 6 or 8 beat phrases so it's nice to fomulate your own patterns within that, such as syncopation, changing beats, pausing for a few beats, etc. For me, it then looks and feels much more interesting, and there is loads of room for expression on both sides.
I'm not saying that Lindy doesn't suit swing music - I'm saying exactly the opposite.

There are a lot of people who can explain what defines music that swings (http://www.eijkhout.net/ftb/text_files/Swing.html), and how as a result dances like Lindy and West Coast Swing really suit the music. I agree with them. The first beat runs into the second, and encourages you to move on the first beat, and pause on the second. Or move on the first few beats in a bar, and pause on the 8.

If you see good Lindy (or WCS) dancers, they will do this, whether they are doing normal moves, or improvising. The exception is when there is a break or a highlight, which are almost always on the odd beats.

Jive is different - you move on the even beat, and pause on the odd beats. (In this way, it has more in common with some latin dances, rather than swing dances.) So dancing off-beat in jive is the same as dancing on-beat in Lindy.

On-beat in jive is 1,3,5 & 7. Off-beat in Jive is 2,4,6 & 8
But
On-beat in Lindy is 2,4,6 & 8. Off-beat in Lindy is 1,3,5 & 7

(Dancing on-beat means that I complete a step at the right time in the music. Dancing off-beat means I complete a step at the wrong time.)

So the question is - if the music is 'swinging', why do a dance like jive that tries to get you to fight the music? Or put it another way - if you have music that doesn't 'swing', and doesn't emphasise the even beats (like cha cha cha), would you try to do Lindy to it? Would you want to do a Lindy Whip with the timing '2 3 4&5 6 7 8&1'?

The only answer is that it can still be fun to do. If you like swing music, and like dancing jive to it, don't let anyone stop you. All this theory means nothing compared to personal preference!

David

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Originally posted by DavidB
A lot of Swing music does suit dancing on the off-beat. But does that mean it doesn't suit dancing on the on-beat???

then....

I'm not saying that Lindy doesn't suit swing music - I'm saying exactly the opposite.

David

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

DavidB- have you done a lot of swing (of the lindy type)???

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Originally posted by DavidB

On-beat in jive is 1,3,5 & 7. Off-beat in Jive is 2,4,6 & 8
But
On-beat in Lindy is 2,4,6 & 8. Off-beat in Lindy is 1,3,5 & 7
David

That's not quite right. Count 1-AND-2-AND-3-AND-4.... etc.
That's syncopation, which I think is what was being discussed (?) Sorry to be pedantic...

[DavidB]

This has nothing to do with syncopation. It is about dancing on time, or off time. But dancing on time in jive is off time in Lindy.

If you are dancing OFF TIME - you are dancing to the wrong beat in the music. I don't know if 'off time' has a musical definition, but this is from a dancers point of view. A lot of peple can tell when someone is dancing off-time, but it can be difficult to explain. I have usually heard on-time defined as when each movement should finish. If you finish on the wrong beat, you are off-time.

------------------------------------------

In lindy you start each movement (eg twist twist or a triple step) on the downbeat (ie the 1, 3, 5 or the 7), and you finish it on the up-beat (ie the 2, 4, 6 or the 8)

If you did a lindy whip (correctly), you would count it as:
1 2 3&4 5 6 7&8

If you danced Lindy OFF-TIME, you would do
2 3 4&5 6 7 8&1

-------------------------

In Ceroc you start each movement (eg step back, or step in) on the up-beat (2, 4, 6 or 8) and finish it on the down-beat (1, 3, 5 or 7)

If you did a Ceroc first move (correctly) you would do:

Count Music Step
..1.. .8.1. Step Back
..2.. .2.3. Step in
..3.. .4.5. Twist Out
..4.. .6.7. Twist Back
..5.. .8.1. Turn Lady
..6.. .2.3. Step Back
..7.. .4.5. Return
..8.. .6.7. Step Back

If you did a Ceroc first move OFF TIME you would do:

Count Music Step
..1.. .1.2. Step Back
..2.. .3.4. Step in
..3.. .5.6. Twist Out
..4.. .7.8. Twist Back
..5.. .1.2. Turn Lady
..6.. .3.4. Step Back
..7.. .5.6. Return
..8.. .7.8. Step Back

(the dots don't mean anything - it is just to line everything up)

The original point that you made was that 'Swing' music suits dancing Jive OFF-TIME. That means it suits dancing Lindy ON-TIME.
I personally find dancing OFF-TIME uncomfortable, and think that it is wrong. I don't like forcing the dance to fit the music - I would rather pick a dance that suited the music. Personally I would say that 'Swing' music is more naturally suited to Lindy than Jive.

I don't dance Lindy - I don't like the style that has traditionally been taught in the UK (although I do like the style that I've seen in the US.) But as I don't really like the music, I'm not too bothered about not dancing to it.

I do dance and teach West Coast Swing, which at it's most basic is just a slower style of Lindy, and has the same timing.

I hope I've made this a bit clearer.

David

[bigdjiver]

Although I am a Cerocoholic what I dance I describe as Modern Jive, which, as far as I know, has no copyright or trademark restrictions, and no firm definition. I would define it as loosely as possible, eg a leader, one or more followers, the leader communicates by body movements. Footwork matches the circumstances.
As far as I am concerned the male footwork for the first move, and many others, can consist of just shuffling on the spot. I am sure most of you react in horror to that. However, in crowded environments, like the Hammersmith freestyles or the Casbah it is sometimes the only safe way to dance. If I want to jive to a swing number or a Latin one, I imitate the appropriate footwork. Sometimes I slide my feet around the floor, sometimes, to fast numbers, I skip like a boxer. Just because the music has gone over 200 bpm I see no need to sit down. The body movements are, of course, made to the beat divided by 2 or 4.
As for which beat to dance on, I do not care, as long as it works. It is not even necessary always to dance to the music. Jazz plaers often insert little solos where they temporarily are in a different time to the rest of the players. It is possible to dance like that, "In" the music, rather than to the music. James described Ceroc as being "The MacDonalds of dance". I would hope that Modern Jive becomes the international cuisine.

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Originally posted by DavidB
This has nothing to do with syncopation. It is about dancing on time, or off time. But dancing on time in jive is off time in Lindy.
David

Still not in agreement with you on this- Lindy Hop is truly not as clear cut as that (apart from at the most basic level). I don't want to enter a big debate- happy to agree to disagree (you're bigger than me going by that bike).


I don't dance Lindy - I don't like the style that has traditionally been taught in the UK (although I do like the style that I've seen in the US.) But as I don't really like the music, I'm not too bothered about not dancing to it.

If you are referring to Hollywood/smooth style versus Savoy style then I agree to an extent. When we lived in Surrey there were classes in both, and I preferred Savoy style, but now I'm tho opposite. I don't do much swing these days as I have hardly any free time and ceroc is more accessible.


As for which beat to dance on, I do not care, as long as it works. It is not even necessary always to dance to the music. Jazz plaers often insert little solos where they temporarily are in a different time to the rest of the players. It is possible to dance like that, "In" the music, rather than to the music.

With you on this one BigDJiver.... I think Lindsey was making that point too. Modern jiving and swing dance should be free and expressive in my opinion: if you chop and change rhythms, use syncopated footwork, and minimise rigid moves/frameworks, then surely that gives more style??

Baz

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
It is not even necessary always to dance to the music.

So why bother having music then? :confused: wouldn't that be like a singer singing a completely different song to the backing music.......

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
Modern jiving and swing dance should be free and expressive in my opinion: if you chop and change rhythms, use syncopated footwork, and minimise rigid moves/frameworks, then surely that gives more style?? I'd be the last one to advocate 'strict tempo' dancing. I will chop and change moves, stretch or compress timing, and do everything I can to dance to the music... except go off time.

Syncopated movements are just variations to the normal timing of the dance. Instead of dancing a regular '1 2 3 4', you can dance '& a 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4', or whatever subset of that you want. Syncopations are nice because they give you so much more freedom. And a lot of the music that gets played is syncopated. Swing music by definition is syncopated. So understanding syncopations gives you more chance to dance to the music.

But the '1 2 3 4' are still in the same place. If you change the dance from '1 2 3 4' to '2 3 4 5', it is not a syncopation. It is dancing off-time.

Now if your partner likes it, it doesn't matter. But Dance Demon, Emma, Divissima, Gadget, PeterL, Aleks, Graham, Wendy, Tramp and Chicklet have all commented on dancing off-time being a problem with a number of dancers. You might be doing it deliberately, and know exactly what you are doing, but remember for some people it is "worse than BO, worse than bad breath, worse than lycra !!!! "

David

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
So why bother having music then? :confused: wouldn't that be like a singer singing a completely different song to the backing music.......

Happens in jazz all of the time. In dance the commonest form is guy goes into a freeze and the gal does her own saxy thang. Few people care whether it is time with the music or not.

[frodo]

Just a quick point / question.

The last few posts, going into detail on timing, from DavidB are interesting and very useful information.




Now if your partner likes it, it doesn't matter. But Dance Demon, Emma, Divissima, Gadget, PeterL, Aleks, Graham, Wendy, Tramp and Chicklet have all commented on dancing off-time being a problem with a number of dancers. You might be doing it deliberately, and know exactly what you are doing, but remember for some people it is "worse than BO, worse than bad breath, worse than lycra !!!! "

David

This (less technical) section however stands out.

I understand from these posts that when 'off-time' you are still dancing at the correct tempo(?) with a consistent relationship with the music.

Are all these people commenting on being consistently 'off-time' in the strict sense, or might not keeping to a correct and/or consistent tempo come into it ?

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
So why bother having music then?

I arrived early at the Ceroc Championships and went straight in to acquire a good position. There were very few in the hall, the competitors were signing in. A young lady acquired the next seat. She was shivering. The music had not started, but I suggested a warm up dance anyway. I played through in my head a song I had written (amateur) , and we really connected. It is one of my most treasured Ceroc moments just us two dancing at the Hammersmith Palais without music playing. I recommend trying the experiment. That experience spawned another song "Stop the music, I wanna dance"

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
The music had not started, but I suggested a warm up dance anyway. I played through in my head a song I had written (amateur) ,

Yep..............Okie so there wasn't any music audible to others , but you were still dancing to the music in your head were'nt you.....and the girl obviously picked up your beat i.e. the beat of the MUSIC in your head:grin:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by frodo
I understand from these posts that when 'off-time' you are still dancing at the correct tempo(?) with a consistent relationship with the music. Are all these people commenting on being consistently 'off-time' in the strict sense, or might not keeping to a correct and/or consistent tempo come into it ? That is a very good point. I was thinking almost exclusively about people dancing 'off time, but at the correct tempo'. However I think some of these posts might have been discussing 'off-tempo' dancing.

I very rarely see people dancing off-tempo - completely ignoring the music all the time. Of course you get some beginners who struggle, but a lot of us probably had the same problem. But virtually every dancer I see can pick out a definite beat in most songs. It might not be the correct beat, but it is one of the two in there.

Being off-tempo isn't always wrong - as long as you are a multiple (or fraction) of 2 of the beat. Ceroc is already danced at half the speed of the music. A lot of people will do moves half speed again to suit slower parts of the song. And in slow songs, some people do occasional movements at double speed to give added impact.

What I see and experience a lot is people momentarily being off-tempo, and drifting off time. It could be for a number of reasons - someone getting in the way, a missed lead, or the lady taking more (or less) time to do something than the man expected. As more people start to experiment with improvising and changing the moves, this is going to happen more and more. The trick is to realise when it happens, and then to get back on-time.

And you also can get a problem with the music. A lot of modern dance tracks have a 'break' that lasts several bars. Some songs eg 'Two To Tango' just completely change in the middle. And others - eg '21 Seconds' by So Solid Crew are almost impossible to count. At the Bristol competition last year, they played a particularly difficult song, and half the competitors were dancing out of time.

The point is that if you can't hear the beat, then the chances are that most other people are having the same problem. Just keep listening, and if you think you are wrong, then change.

David

[bigdjiver]

Thanks to David B. for taking the time to explain the timing differences between Swing and Modern Jive.

One thing it may help to explain is the reluctance of many "Swing" ladies to do Modern Jive. I had assumed it was all a dance snobbery thing, but if the timing is that different I can now understand their reluctance. I gave up Salsa pretty quickly when I found out that apparently similar upper body movements were in fact led differently.

[DavidY]

Originally posted by DavidB
And you also can get a problem with the music. ... Some songs eg 'Two To Tango' just completely change in the middle.

Does anyone else go to venues where they play 'Round, Round' by the Sugababes?

If so, how do you lead the bit in the middle where it completely changes tempo to go into a waltz? I'm sure must be some stylish way round this but I admit I have yet to work out what it is? :confused:

David

[Gary]

Originally posted by DavidY
Does anyone else go to venues where they play 'Round, Round' by the Sugababes?

If so, how do you lead the bit in the middle where it completely changes tempo to go into a waltz?

I haven't heard this at any venue I go to, and this might be just crazy talk, but could you just lead the girl into a very basic waltz? I half-remember being shown waltz footwork a long time ago, and reckon I could probably fake it for a few bars...

[Divissima]

Originally posted by DavidB
Now if your partner likes it, it doesn't matter. But Dance Demon, Emma, Divissima, Gadget, PeterL, Aleks, Graham, Wendy, Tramp and Chicklet have all commented on dancing off-time being a problem with a number of dancers. You might be doing it deliberately, and know exactly what you are doing, but remember for some people it is "worse than BO, worse than bad breath, worse than lycra !!!! "

David

would hate to cause offence - I don't think it's worse than any of those things!! :sorry :sorry

it was more a comment on my deficient following - it wasn't so much that I couldn't hear the off-beat, I just couldn't keep to it. He was regularly on the off-beat, not out of time, I just struggled with it. :tears:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by DavidY
Does anyone else go to venues where they play 'Round, Round' by the Sugababes? If so, how do you lead the bit in the middle where it completely changes tempo to go into a waltz?One of my favourite tracks. I do a Viennese waltz to the bit in the middle. Or at least I try to, and only when I know the lady has done any ballroom. Otherwise I'm likely to step on her feet.

David

[Debster]

Originally posted by DavidB
One of my favourite tracks. I do a Viennese waltz to the bit in the middle. Or at least I try to, and only when I know the lady has done any ballroom. Otherwise I'm likely to step on her feet.

David

Ooh David - pick me! I'd love to try it. But I am a bit doubtful how successful that could be in the crowded venues we dance in (of course you probably mean a more on the spot version).

I think it is important for people to recognise that bit of the music is a Viennese waltz and not a regular 'modern' waltz. The Viennese is very fast, so what you think of as waltz may not even work to that piece of music.

I think I would recommend slowing right down instead to cope with the change of timing and stepping only on the '1' if you can manage to count the music (i.e. Viennese waltz being quick 1-2-3 1-2-3). The 2-3 will become a nice sweeping gather of weight to suit the mood of the music... well it works nicely in my head :wink: (and I think that's how I've managed to dance to that one in the past)

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Debster
But I am a bit doubtful how successful that could be in the crowded venues we dance in (of course you probably mean a more on the spot version).I keep it very small, and with Natural turns only. (I step on my own feet doing reverse turns.) The obvious step would be a Fleckerel. Only a minor problem - I don't know how to do one!

I think I would recommend slowing right down instead to cope with the change of timing and stepping only on the '1' if you can manage to count the music (i.e. Viennese waltz being quick 1-2-3 1-2-3). The 2-3 will become a nice sweeping gather of weight to suit the mood of the music... well it works nicely in my headI've seen that done. One couple did it really well - it looked more like an American-style waltz (ie American Smooth, or Country & Western)

But some DJs play a version where the waltz has been edited out... :reallymad :reallymad

David

BTW the new Big Brovaz single ('Favourite Things') is a Viennese Waltz. It could make an interesting cabaret - a medley of that and 'Nu Flow'...

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Originally posted by Divissima
would hate to cause offence - I don't think it's worse than any of those things!! it was more a comment on my deficient following - it wasn't so much that I couldn't hear the off-beat, I just couldn't keep to it. He was regularly on the off-beat, not out of time, I just struggled with it. :tears:

It can be REALLY hard to keep to, I agree. We once did a lindy hop class where everyone had to start an 8-beat routine on beat 7 instead of beat 1. A real challenge to lead but made everyone listen to the music.

As DavidB, Frodo, plus others have said, dancing off-beat should not be confused with dancing out of time! Lindy hop has even further complexities at advanced levels with jazz steps etc. You constantly switch between patterns on-beat, off-beat, syncopted beat, pauses, and not necessarly returning consistently to the start of a move on beat 1.

But BO is definitely worse than one dance out of time....

[Amir]

Hello again. wrote some stuff on this but its a bit long for here, perhaps. If anyone's interested its on the 'leading and following' tab at www.fusiondance.co.uk

good luck

Amir.

[eastmanjohn]

Originally posted by Franck
I think you have to separate the Class from Freestyle.

In the Class, everyone is learning, and the women are seeking visual re-assurance that they are doing the right thing, especially if you make it easy by leading well, it will seem too easy and they will look at the teacher / demo for confirmation they went 'the right way'. Often they will be wondering what to do with their feet etc and will need to check the stage.

Franck.

This is where a problem occurs. What happens when the people on the stage don't do the same thing each time they do the move? It is very easy when steppign through a move a beat at a time to inadvertently change your weight from one foot to the other while waiting for the next beat to be described.
What the teacher has to remember is the dynamic between the beats adn they need to be consistent each time they teach. Not easy!!!

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck
Often they will be wondering what to do with their feet etc and will need to check the stage.I missed this post first time around. How many people do you think can see the teacher's feet in a class? Only the first few rows. The people at the back are lucky to see anything below chest-height.

It is ok for whoever is 'rotating'. But a sizeable minority of the class will never see what the teacher is talking about.

David

[Sandy]

Originally posted by DavidB
I missed this post first time around. How many people do you think can see the teacher's feet in a class? Only the first few rows. The people at the back are lucky to see anything below chest-height.

It is ok for whoever is 'rotating'. But a sizeable minority of the class will never see what the teacher is talking about.

David

Good point! The Aberdeen class is a very popular and busy location and therefore can sometimes be difficult to see and hear. I tend not to worry too much about feet as long as I can see the arm and body movements (yes I know this explains a lot!) but this too can be a bit difficult at times. I guess this is where we ask the teacher to speak up and perhaps demonstrate at the other end of the class or get people to come forward if necessary?? (especially for some of the intermediate moves which can have a lot to them). I have to add that for most of the time it isn't a problem but definitely a good point to mention.

Cheers

Sandy:wink:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Sandy
Good point! The Aberdeen class is a very popular and busy location and therefore can sometimes be difficult to see and hear.
Why do you think Nial rushes to his reserved space at the front when the class is anounced; it could be just to admire the pretty teachers & demonstrators, but it could equally be to catch the nuances of the demonstration and lesson that don't get mentioned.

{OK, so I'm guilty of trying to be at the front of the lines as well, but I wear glasses! :wink:}

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Gadget
Why do you think Nial rushes to his reserved space at the front when the class is anounced; it could be just to admire the pretty teachers & demonstrators, but it could equally be to catch the nuances of the demonstration and lesson that don't get mentioned.

{OK, so I'm guilty of trying to be at the front of the lines as well, but I wear glasses! :wink:}

Yeh well I did notice! survival of the fittest! Arms out and go for it!

Yeh specs to come in handy sometimes! I'll have a wee try out and see what kind of glass is in them next time I see you!:devil:

Sandy

:wink:

[MartinHarper]

From way way back in 2003:


The question is - if the music is 'swinging', why do a dance like jive that tries to get you to fight the music?

I've never found that MJ conflicted with swing music. Is this a common opinion?

[Clive Long]

From way way back in 2003:

I've never found that MJ conflicted with swing music. Is this a common opinion?

Never wishing to contradict a Harper missive ...

I have found that MJ can be danced to most music (that is played at MJ events - so it is probably self-fulfilling) but when something Latiny or slow is put on and I see some people dancing what is, I guess, Salsa or Blues or a bit more "structured" than MJ, I just think what they are doing is, if not better, then more appropriate and I am hit with a pang of jealousy.

Rather than remain jealous , this year I hope to do something about it and extend my range of dance styles.

CRL

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by DavidB
The question is - if the music is 'swinging', why do a dance like jive that tries to get you to fight the music?

errr.... yes :yeah: IMO it takes an experienced MJ dancer to be able to dance to swing music and they usually have to change their style slightly to do so - plus - there is swing, and there is SWING - (isn't the timing different)

The swing music played in MJ events is nothing like the swing music played at Lindy events

[Yogi_Bear]

.......I have found that MJ can be danced to most music (that is played at MJ events - so it is probably self-fulfilling) but when something Latiny or slow is put on and I see some people dancing what is, I guess, Salsa or Blues or a bit more "structured" than MJ, I just think what they are doing is, if not better, then more appropriate and I am hit with a pang of jealousy.....

CRLThe fact that MJ can be danced to a fairly wide range of music, even if we include all the music on any particular MJ night play list, surely means that there will be many tracks for which MJ will not offer the best opportunities for musicality. This is partly because as a very general rule MJ classes tend to instil the learning of moves at the expense of musical interpretation, or even maybe listening to the music at all....
The obvious solution is to learn a variety of dance styles and pick the appropriate one for the music, or at least infuse your MJ repertoire with elements of them.
I would have described MJ as structured, rather than these other forms, in the sense that it is about stringing moves together - but I guess you mean the 8-count structures of, say Lindy...