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Gus
27th-May-2006, 01:13 PM
Want to do some research on the Rise and Fall of Hipsters for a new article. I remember making the trip down from the North for the opening (packed ) night and thinking what a great concept it was. With the line up of teachers, the publicity behind it, the great venue and the DJ line up I thought that I'd really been at the start of a new era in MJ dancing.

A few years later I was on stage at Hipsters trying to teach an 'advanced' lesson to a motley crew of dancers who could barely do an armjive with any style. I heard form other teachers who had become disillusioned with the standard of dancers attending the lessons. I did a few of the lessons myself and thought they were great. I saw Nelson Rose and Roger Chin teach wonderful lessons, but there were pearls before swine :(

Now the Hipsters only remains as a freestyle night. How did it fail. There was never any direct competition. The Ceroc response was a Ballroom based concept (nice innovation) ... but what really killed Hipsters off. Any ideas?

Miss Conduct
27th-May-2006, 03:43 PM
For me personally, it was mainly the music, too much swing for my liking. :sad:

Midweek was a little difficult for me because of the distance involved but Friday night used to be worth the trip. Haven't been to Hipsters for nearly two years now but could be tempted back for better music.

Mary
27th-May-2006, 05:42 PM
On the contrary I don't think Hipsters failed at all. It was a huge success but had it's own life cycle.

Some things grow and continue to evolve, but Hipsters, perhaps was it's own end product and therefore had nothing to evolve into. However it has paved the way for other venues to adopt the flavour of what Hipsters was about maybe.

Perhaps Funky Lush is an embyonic evolution of Hipsters - in that it's not tailored to accommodate beginners, and is an outlet for a wider variety of dance styles for example Tango, WCS and MJ all under the one roof. Having the facility to practise dancing other styles without having to be restriced to that one style for the whole evening.

M

Gus
27th-May-2006, 06:42 PM
On the contrary I don't think Hipsters failed at all. It was a huge success but had it's own life cycle. I can see what you are saying, but why was its life cycle less than 2 years? Are we saying that there are no more upper intermediates who want to dance with better dancers? Is there no-one out there that would love weekly classes that break the mold and are by some of the most innovative teachers around?

Maybve its because up north we simply don't have access to teachers who can do anything more than the standard format :( People here do whinge on about envying the choice that Londoners have ... but if Hipsters was up here would they go?

Lory
27th-May-2006, 07:50 PM
On the contrary I don't think Hipsters failed at all. It was a huge success but had it's own life cycle.

Some things grow and continue to evolve, but Hipsters, perhaps was it's own end product and therefore had nothing to evolve into. However it has paved the way for other venues to adopt the flavour of what Hipsters was about maybe.

:yeah:
I think you have two 'groups' of dancers at any one time and BOTH need to be nurtured to have a successful 'long running' venue.

Group A... is the 'bread and butter' group and is made up of

-The purely social dancer, who reaches a certain level, and is happy to stick to what they know

-The beginners (one never knows which group they'll end up in)

-The loyal punter, once got, will stick with you through thick and thin

-The followers - these are not 'trend setters' but they do follow the trends

-The locals

Then we have Group B - made up of the following

-The 'Advanced, progressives,' these are dancers who are always striving to be better, even though they're already considered 'good' they like to be at the cutting edge of the latest 'fad'. They are open to new idea's, in music and dance styles.

-'The socialite's' - like to be seen in all the 'right' places and are very well 'connected'

-Dancers who get bored easily and need an ever changing crowd or concept (by nature they're 'Nomadic')

This group are not loyal, they have their finger on the pulse and know what's happening. They like to be listened to and have their needs met!

They are 'Influential' and desirable punters. They make a great atmosphere and help attract some of Group A


~~~~

I think Hipsters set out to solely attract members of group B and in the initial stages it worked very well, unfortunately, this is the hardest group of all to keep happy.


It either needed to reinvent its self every few weeks, to keep group B happy (which is a 'risky business' when a venue is seemingly doing well) Or accept the inevitable departure of Group B and strive to maintain the happiness of the Group A's which had accumulated over time.

The ironiny was, the time Franco needed to worry, was the time when the venue reached its peek of popularity.

Minnie M
27th-May-2006, 08:10 PM
The 'Advanced, progressives,' these are dancers who are always striving to be better, even though they're already considered 'good' they like to be at the cutting edge of the latest 'fad'. They are open to new idea's, in music and dance styles..../snip/...The ironiny was, the time Franco needed to worry, was the time when the venue reached its peek of popularity
:yeah: good post and so true :yeah:
It was a victim of it's own sucess, which is really sad :sad:

ducasi
27th-May-2006, 08:49 PM
I'm a fair distance from all this, living in Scotland, having never been to Hipsters or Funky Lush, so I can only comment in general terms...

First, like Lory, I'm going to categorise all dancers into two groups – "social" and "advanced". It's a facile division, but it works well enough for this... I guess Lory's groups A & B could be a better categorisation, but the exact make-up of each group matters little.

So, if a new event starts up aimed at "advanced" dancers (or at least those who want to be the best they can be), manages to draw that crowd by doing some advanced teaching, then that's great... They've got themselves a great venue with great dancers, being taught by the best teachers..

But even the "social" dancer will want to dance with the best dancers possible, and so will also be drawn to the same venue – even if the teaching is sometimes beyond them (or even of little interest to them.)

Once the classes begin to fill up with dancers who can "barely do an armjive with any style", the advanced dancers they want to retain will stop coming to the classes.

Likewise, if the freestyle becomes too crowded, and it becomes harder for the advanced dancers to dance with the folks they want to, and fewer of them will come.

At that point all they've got is a regular venue with a lot of hype.

What is required is a mechanism to filter out the social dancers. Short of having auditions or someone at the door turning people away if they're not good enough, there's not much you can do...

Unless there is something that draws the advanced dancers, but puts social dancers off... Small workshop-like classes that teach good technique will attract the best dancers, and will put off many social dancers if they have problems doing the class.

But I think there's another, simpler filter which will put off most social dancers, or covert them into dancers who do want more, and that's the music policy – give the advanced dancers the "challenging" music they like, that the regular punters complain about.


That said, the market for advanced dancers is small, and picky. I can think of a couple of regular events in Scotland that aim for this market, but they sometimes struggle for numbers as a result.

But it should be possible for something like this to work well in a place the size of London – and it sounds like (at least for the moment) Funky Lush is doing just that. :)

Minnie M
27th-May-2006, 09:03 PM
Unfortunately you can't compare Ealing Town Hall (Hipsters) with The Hammersmith Club (Funky Lush/Jango etc)

By the way the Hammersmith club is a working mans club, with a really cheap bar :clap: (which also helps) and even when packed can only hold about 100 people (if that) whereas Ealing Town hall has know to pack in as many as 300

I stopped going to Hipsters on a Tuesday, because it was not only too crowded the music changed and a lot of newbies started going.

ducasi
27th-May-2006, 09:17 PM
Unfortunately you can't compare Ealing Town Hall (Hipsters) with The Hammersmith Club (Funky Lush/Jango etc)

By the way the Hammersmith club is a working mans club, with a really cheap bar :clap: (which also helps) and even when packed can only hold about 100 people (if that) whereas Ealing Town hall has know to pack in as many as 300 As I said, never been, so I can't compare. But the only thing which really differs between a 300 covers venue to a 100 covers one, is the scale aimed for, and the number of people needed to make it a success.

Perhaps there's a market of advanced dancers in London that can supply ~100 folks regularly, but not 300... Dunno.

I'm sure there are many other factors...

Lory
27th-May-2006, 09:17 PM
But even the "social" dancer will want to dance with the best dancers possible, and so will also be drawn to the same venue – even if the teaching is sometimes beyond them (or even of little interest to them.)

Once the classes begin to fill up with dancers who can "barely do an armjive with any style", the advanced dancers they want to retain will stop coming to the classes.

Likewise, if the freestyle becomes too crowded
:yeah:


I stopped going to Hipsters on a Tuesday, because it was not only too crowded the music changed and a lot of newbies started going.
And there we have it!

Yogi_Bear
27th-May-2006, 10:40 PM
I have only been to Hipsters once, over a year ago, but will add my few thoughts here (coming from Norwich, opportunities to travel to Ealing on a Friday evening are relatively few and far between). The attraction for me, other than to try out the fabled Hipsters, was always going to be Nigel and Nina's master class, in this case on the jive swingout - and very good it was too. The first thing that struck me was that the class did not start anything like on time, and the second that so few came to the first class with N&N - as I recall, about 7 or 8 couples. Not many for a superb class. And largely 'social' dancers. The second N&N class, incorporating some of the jive swingout variations, was much better attended, with Rena (and maybe Andy - the other half of the team). Oh well, I guesss people just turn up late and come mainly for the freestyle. At the end of the evening I left a little disappointed with the music (too fast and uninspiring) but impressed with the number and range of more advanced dancers. Had the venue been much nearer for me I would have been a regular on Fridays.

Minnie M
28th-May-2006, 09:13 AM
........opportunities to travel to Ealing on a Friday evening are relatively few and far between............Had the venue been much nearer for me I would have been a regular on Fridays.
Fridays at Hipsters is still going strong :clap: it is the Tuesday and the Wednesday that has folded ............ so why is Friday still OK ?

Personally for me one of the best things about the Friday is the 1am finish :clap: plus I love the mix of crowds (swing & MJ - new & old) and most times I love the music - and although it is packed, the crowd thins out after about 11'ish

fletch
28th-May-2006, 10:23 AM
For me personally, it was mainly the music, too much swing for my liking. :sad:

Midweek was a little difficult for me because of the distance involved but Friday night used to be worth the trip. Haven't been to Hipsters for nearly two years now but could be tempted back for better music.


I have only been going 9 months and I can't always get there,:sad: Hipsters was the first new scary venue I ventured to,:eek: from the Midlands and I didn't know what to expect, having been told every one was up there own AR$E, FAB dancers, and probably going to refuse me.:really: Not so at all,:flower: Hipsters will always have a very special place in my hart out of all the London venues.:worthy:

Its normally Jon Brett DJ'ing and he is one of my favourites (not just co's he plays some Motown) :respect: he is a good all rounder, you can't please all of the people all of the time,:rolleyes: but he has a jolly good bash at it, and seems to be able to vary the music with the mood of the evening.:respect:

It really is worth another visit, but maybe i'm just bias.:cheers:

Minnie M
28th-May-2006, 11:00 AM
Fridays at Hipsters is still going strong :clap: it is the Tuesday and the Wednesday that has folded ............ so why is Friday still OK ?

BFF Hipsters (Fridays) is still alive :blush: the thread title is confusing :what:

Big Fat Friday

Gus
28th-May-2006, 12:05 PM
BFF Hipsters (Fridays) is still alive :blush: the thread title is confusing :what:Sorry, but I regard the BFF as 'just' a freestyle, not a class night. freestyles are a very different animal, and I don't think that BFF is that different to many freestyles across the UK. The crux of my original question was how could a class that was fronted by such dance gods as Viktor, Nigel, Roger C, Amir etc. fail?

The challenge to operators in the rest of the UK, where we don't have the density of really good dancers that London has, is that any such ventures are doomed to fail. Is the logical conclusion that operators should just 'dumb down' their presentation of classes and events to appeal to the 90% and ignore the better dancers? Jango nights seem to be the one exception to the 'cater to the mass market' approach. And this would then seem to reinforce the cycle that we have no better dancers because there are no other good dancers for them to dance with?:(

Jive Brummie
28th-May-2006, 01:04 PM
I think that the reason Hipsters developed into a success was because it wasn't afraid of breaking the 'rules'. It wanted to be a pioneer in trying to appeal to the experienced dancer...and we should all applaud it for that. I know I personally have huge respect for those that stand up to 'The Man', and are willing to make their own choices...Not because I'm trying to be difficult, I just like freedom of expression.

The reason it failed: because after the mass market realised that it was the place to be...it got flooded with 'group A' dancers and so the explicit reason it opened (to provide top quality teaching to top quality dancers) had suddenly dissappeared...

I genuinely think Gus that people are too scared to break away from what they perceive as being 'right'. But then it only takes a few with their own strength of mind and character to stand strong and put themselves out on a limb to show people that it's really ok to be different.

I think you'll find that group A dancers (not my terms:flower: ) are more than happy to follow the flock but when it comes to actually wanting to improve, will actually take offense when told that they're getting fundamental basics wrong....after all, they've been used to hearing, "That looks great, but could look even better if you did this...." How does that help?:confused: Yeah it's a great confidence booster to the social dancer but it really hacks off your upper intermediates:rolleyes:

Group B dancers though (the Hipsters crowd) are more than willing to listen to and digest what they have been advised however hard it is to comprehend or take in....that's why they don't follow the flock and that's why they improve...

Humble opinion of course and not one I would want to enforce on others:flower:

The overall solution....to believe in something so much that external pressures won't have an effect and indeed just go towards making you stronger and more determined to last longer than the suggested 6 months....I'm sure it would be a huge amount of work, but I've found that if you want something enough and are passionate about it to the extent that nothing will get in your way...then the only thing that can stop you is yourself.

I hope Hipsters can rise up once more and prove to people that after a barren spell that they are more than willing to put their necks on the line again and come back bigger and better:worthy: .

JB.

Yogi_Bear
28th-May-2006, 05:43 PM
BFF Hipsters (Fridays) is still alive :blush: the thread title is confusing :what:

Big Fat Friday
Yes, I would love to have gone to the last Friday (N&N class on slotted vs circular dancing I think) but couldn't make it for several reasons...:sad:

Feelingpink
29th-May-2006, 12:02 PM
Personally, I stopped going to Hipsters on a Tuesday because I got bored. After about a year, it seemed that I was having the same dances with the same faces to the same music and nothing changed. I agree with Mary that there is possibly a life cycle for venues and would put forward monotony as being contributory to that. About the same time, Jango started on a Monday night ... so going to the other side of London two nights in a row isn't impossible, but you want to be having a good time at both to keep going. There just wasn't enough at Hipsters on a Tuesday ... and I refused to go to the BFFF on a Friday night because of the overcrowding & Franco's refusal to do anything about it.

There is an Irish saying - "You go away to come back again" - just like many of us will go off to explore other dances, returning to MJ after a while - so perhaps Hipsters could now work with a similar format as it previously had.

stewart38
30th-May-2006, 11:38 AM
Personally, I stopped going to Hipsters on a Tuesday because I got bored. After about a year, it seemed that I was having the same dances with the same faces to the same music and nothing changed.


About 2yrs ago on a Hipsters Thread I said after a few visits it was the cliquest and most unfriendly place id been to

It was my opinion and I duly got –ve rep and bad mouthed

I said at the time , time will tell

I got more refusal for a dance there in an hour then in a usual month so I didn’t go back. Others may of course have other reasons

Its interesting that two northern ladies who came down form York both found Berko very cliquey on sunday

I don’t think the standard forumite is even aware how ‘cliquey’ some venues are.

A venue can become very popular and every one can got there to ‘find’ there best dancers but if you ignore ‘new people’, cant see how that is a winning formula

WittyBird
30th-May-2006, 11:42 AM
Its interesting that two northern ladies who came down form York both found Berko very cliquey on sunday

I don’t think the standard forumite is even aware how ‘cliquey’ some venues are.

A venue can become very popular and every one can got there to ‘find’ there best dancers but if you ignore ‘new people’, cant see how that is a winning formula

Nope don't do it... shut up Rebekah and go back to bed :rolleyes:

El Salsero Gringo
30th-May-2006, 11:46 AM
A venue can become very popular and every one can got there to ‘find’ there best dancers but if you ignore ‘new people’, cant see how that is a winning formulaSounds like a typical 'bubble' scenario (like the South Sea Bubble, or the Dot-Com boom/bust): everyone going somewhere just because everyone else thinks it's a great idea.

The flip side, of course, is people *not* going somewhere just because it isn't popular enough. Not that anyone here would ever do that.

ducasi
30th-May-2006, 12:17 PM
Sounds like a typical 'bubble' scenario (like the South Sea Bubble, or the Dot-Com boom/bust): everyone going somewhere just because everyone else thinks it's a great idea.

The flip side, of course, is people *not* going somewhere just because it isn't popular enough. Not that anyone here would ever do that.
Go on, isn't that the real reason you're not going to Southport? :wink:

CJ
30th-May-2006, 04:11 PM
Go on, amn't I the real reason you're not going to Southport? :wink:

Hmmm.... makes you wonder:whistle:

Sheppy
30th-May-2006, 05:14 PM
and I refused to go to the BFFF on a Friday night because of the overcrowding & Franco's refusal to do anything about it.

You've saved me a few gallons of fuel and a hotel bill, :grin: :cheers:

El Salsero Gringo
30th-May-2006, 05:32 PM
Go on, amn't I the real reason you're not going to Southport? :wink:Hmmm.... makes you wonder:whistle:Lordy - if you're going to make up quotes and put them in people's mouths, you can at least spell them right!

Rhythm King
30th-May-2006, 06:08 PM
Well for my two pen'orth, I think people forget that the style and format of Hipsters changed quite a bit, over the period it was operating.

Initially, Andy and Rena taught Lindy Hop downstairs and Amir and Kate and Nigel and usually Jules taught upstairs. The Lindy catered for beginners upwards and upstairs catered for intermediates and above.

Andy and Rena wanted to open their own venue and left, taking the Lindy crowd with them, to be replaced by David and Lily teaching WCS - which not that many people knew about at the time, the dance that is, not David and Lily. Amir moved to the new second night on a Wednesday with - was it Viktor? I never went to a Wednesday - and they started to teach beginners. The fabulous Cat subsequently took over the WCS from the excellent Barkers. Upstairs became a bit of a muddle, in as much as one didn't always know who was going to be teaching what and when. Also JB had some issues with finding music that suited both experienced MJ-ers and newbie WCS-ers, which hadn't been a problem with the Lindy crowd, although some people didn't like the swing bias anyway.

Amir then started Jango on a Monday, which sucked some more people away and No Sequins started on a Tuesday, which made another dent in the core crowd. Thus the regulars got split up and drawn to other events and didn't necessarily want to do all the travelling involved and Hipsters went into decline. It closed for a bit, but when Franco re-opened it, there was no idea given as to who would be teaching at any time and thus no draw for the experienced dancer.

At the end I was going for Cat's WCS classes, but upstairs one couldn't practise it that much, because of the music, and the overall standard of MJ-ers just wasn't as good as it had been. The place became increasingly filled with people whose floorcraft left something to be desired - If I wanted to be jostled and bumped and have women flung/dropped unexpectedly into my path I could always go to Fulham.

I still go to BFF, but it's an uneven experience, sometimes it's packed and sometimes not. One just can't tell 'til one gets there. The good things are that JB still plays phat tunes for MJ and it draws people from all over - and it's always nice to see the out of towners.

There are now small clusters of dancers doing different things in different places, be it Monday Meltdown (ie Jango :wink: ) WCS at Twickenham, tango at various different locations and even some ballroom (but not at nose-quins anymore).

tiger
30th-May-2006, 07:19 PM
Have some rep Rythym King. A very well explained posting by you.

jezzyjj
30th-May-2006, 08:43 PM
About 2yrs ago on a Hipsters Thread I said after a few visits it was the cliquest and most unfriendly place id been to
It was my opinion and I duly got –ve rep and bad mouthed
I said at the time , time will tell
I got more refusal for a dance there in an hour then in a usual month so I didn’t go back. Others may of course have other reasons

Hmm sounds very much like what the Casbah used to be like. Full of cliquey stuck up and downright rude muppets who thought that because they owned a pair of two-tones they were God's gift to dancing. I stopped bothering to ask peeps who wore two-tones as a result, not worth the rudeness... prob my turn to get -ve rep:whistle: !!
I've only been to Hipsters once on a Friday about a year ago and wasn't distinctly underwhelmed, certainly not full of the best dancers to be inspired by. It seemed to be just another ordinary MJ night with a bit more swing music.