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Merovingian
25th-May-2006, 01:39 AM
Hello all!

I've been lurking here for quite a while now, and I find this a good resource to get rid some of my dancing gremlins :blush:

Yesterday, in my dance class the teachers described the 6-beat and 8-beat "system" of music we are supposed to dance to. The idea, I believe was to give us and understanding of how to predict the music and be able to handle breaks etc.

After the session was over I felt totally at loss not being able to grasp anything except trying to count the beats. And I've been trying to count every danceable song, to no apparent success.

Can someone please explain what this 8-count/6-count (or beat) system is?

And more importantly how can I learn more about this, and be able to sucessfully use it while dancing?

(( I tried searching for something similar in the forum before posting, so please point me in the right direction, if this has already been asked before ))

DavidB
25th-May-2006, 02:07 AM
What dance are you doing? Modern Jive? WCS? Lindy?

Merovingian
25th-May-2006, 08:10 AM
It's Modern Jive! :grin:

TiggsTours
25th-May-2006, 12:25 PM
First of all, congratulations on caring so much at this stage about the musicality! It is such an important thing to grasp in order to fulfill the enjoyment of the dance to its full potential, and so many people don't do it!

Secondly, don't worry too much, you've posted this on the beginners thread, so I assume you haven't been dancing long. Don't worry about the technicalities of musicality too much at this stage, you've got enough to be getting on with!


All musicality means at this point is "listen to the music" you will find that the music is made up of bars, a little bit like a sentence in speach, its a bit where you can take it out and makes sense on its own, quite often bars are broken up with breaks, these are the bits that dancers who enjoy musicality get really excited about! The bit in the music that you can hear the last few bars have been building up to, and it tells you what to do, which is completely open to your own interpretation.

Don't worry about counting music at this stage, so long as you can hear the beat, then listen to the music, listen to the tune, the changes in tempo and feel, and do what you think the music is telling you to do. If you can do that, then you'll have the count naturally. If you really want to count it, then I'd suggest you just sit down and listen to music, count it out in your head, imagine how you'd dance to it, don't try to do it while you're actually dancing!

And don't think you're crazy for doing it, who on this forum hasn't listened to a piece of music in the car and danced all the way through it in their head?


If you ever see one advertised, try to get along to a musicality class, Nigel Anderson's are superb for listening to the "count" of the music, by the end of one of his classes you really will know that Britney Spears is exactly like Beethoven!

CJ
25th-May-2006, 12:29 PM
Where do you dance, Merovingian?

The only thing I can think of, if your 6 or 8 beats refer to music and not steps, will be the difference between straight time and compound time.

Straight time would be measured in e.g.
4 8
4 (which is mathematically = to 8)

where as compound time would be
6
8

the 4
4 relates to:
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and.

the 6
8 relates to:
1 and a 2 and a: 1 and a 2 and a
(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)

Can anyone Harperlink to previous threads??

In real terms this doesn't actually affect your dance or the "ceroc beats" (the beats upon which you dance).

But then I could be going on about somethign completely different to your teacher:confused: Best thing to do is to ask.

Having started to put together musicality workshops, I'd be delighted for Q's by PM.

DavidB
25th-May-2006, 01:30 PM
I asked about the dance because the terms 6-beat and 8-beat are used a lot in Lindy & WCS. The majority of moves in these two dances take either 6 beats or 8 beats to complete, so it can be 'simple' to fit the moves to the musical phrasing. (By phrasing I mean finishing a move at the end of a verse/chorus. If you can do it, it does look good.)

However in Modern Jive moves can be anything from 4 beats to over 20 beats. There is no standard length. There isn't even a standard way of saying when one move finishes and another starts. Phrasing can be done, but it is a lot harder.


Almost all the music we dance to has a structure. If you understand the structure it is very easy to predict what is going to happen next, even if you have never heard the song before. I'm guessing this is what your teacher was trying to put across. I just don't understand where 6-beat and 8-beat would come into it for Modern Jive.

You might also hear the phrase 'feeling the music'. Personally I find this one the most unhelpful phrases in dancing*. I'm waiting for someone to teach this *without* referring to the structure of the song, or hearing the song before.

David

* Along with 'Men - you have to lead this move' without any explanation, 'lets get Arlene's reaction on that performance', and 'Last orders at the bar'.

Merovingian
25th-May-2006, 09:34 PM
Hi Guys,

I go to James and Emma's (http://www.jazzjiveswing.com/) Gloucester classes; I started this January, and am now in second session. Doing both his beginners and intermediate classes ( this allows more time to practice :wink: )

I've built up about 10-15 moves that I can do very well (me thinks); mostly basic moves, throwing in an few odd intermediate moves when I can remember 'em, and the person i'm dancing with seems comfortable with 'em.

I still do the begginers classes as it lets me build better technique, and really I think I need get a handle on being a "good lead" before I can graduate from the beginners group.

After reading articles elsewhere on these forums, and as TiggsTours recommended I have been trying to dance in my head, which has really helped. (after the initial 2 months' of dreading each class)

And until this weeks' class I thought I had a good grip on basic dancing and then James mentioned the _beats_. I suppose I was too confused and suddenly not being able dance, because half the brain was trying to figure out when the music breaks/stops, the other half struggling to keepup the moves and try to lead :sad: ; left me too disappointed to ask 'em anything that night, I suppose I should wait for the next class and grab one of 'em before the class starts :nice:

CJ all that numbers that you've mentioned do seem to make sense, but with no music background I am at a total loss about straight-time/compound-time and all the other relationships (/me makes note in the diary to go buy some books on understanding music) . And I hope I would start to appricate these before the september session starts :nice:

DavidB .. I believe it actually was something to do with being able to finish moves at the end of these 6/8 beat sequences, and being able to pick the right move for the song. And as an exercise we were asked to just-stop where ever we were when the song reached these points (which I have to admit was a lot more fun). I even got a dance with the Emma (the teacher) and she seemed to be able to pick the beats off the music while I discovered how "new moves" are created. :yum:

And guess what ... someone did mention "feel the music" for the breaks.

Merovingian
25th-May-2006, 09:39 PM
Oh! And thanks very much.

:)

Whitebeard
25th-May-2006, 11:01 PM
Hi Guys,

I go to James and Emma's (http://www.jazzjiveswing.com/) Gloucester classes; I started this January, and am now in second session. Doing both his beginners and intermediate classes ( this allows more time to practice :wink: )

Hi neighbour,

This answers DavidBs query then, as this is basically a Lindy Hop outfit which eases Beginners into dance with MJ moves but from Intermediate 1 starts to introduce Lindy concepts. (Used to be James and Bridget when I went there.) I guess you are going to find it a little confusing during this changeover period. I never got to that stage as I discovered Ceroc and the real 'night out' experience. Their classes are organised into 'terms'; echoing schooldays.

clevedonboy
25th-May-2006, 11:23 PM
Hi neighbour,

This answers DavidBs query then, as this is basically a Lindy Hop outfit which eases Beginners into dance with MJ moves but from Intermediate 1 starts to introduce Lindy concepts. (Used to be James and Bridget when I went there.) I guess you are going to find it a little confusing during this changeover period. I never got to that stage as I discovered Ceroc and the real 'night out' experience. Their classes are organised into 'terms'; echoing schooldays.


This concept is very strange I find (it's echoed in & around Portsmouth by their sister company) - if you're teaching Lindy just get on with it. Don't use MJ as a towel to hide behind (it seems to me that they think that you don't want people to think that they might have to work to learn to dance until it's a done deal)

So the answer to your question is that in Lindy we use 6 & 8 count patterns that tend to fit the music - as a simple example if you dance only 8 count patterns and start on the the first beat of the track (or the 9th, 17th etc) then you will hit the
breaks

Merovingian
27th-May-2006, 05:42 PM
Thanks guy; also stumbled on the following, posted a couple of years ago:



...
...
(This might be way too technical - apologies in advance.)

When most people count music, they would count '1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8'. They count every beat of the music.

In Modern Jive teachers and dancers count the movements, not the beats. Each movement takes 2 beats.

eg A first move (step back on 1, step in on 2, twist the lady out on 3, twist her back on 4, rutn the lady on 5, step back on 6,return her on 7, step back on 8) actually takes 16 counts of music.

So if a movement takes 2 beats, you have to choose which beat you start (or finish) on. One of the beats is correct (on-time) and the other is wrong (off-time).

It is easier to think about the beat you finish a movement on - ie if you step back, then the beat you have finished your step back on. The correct musical beats to finish movements on in Modern Jive are the odd beats (ie the 1, 3, 5 and 7)


So how do you know which are the odd beats and which are the even beats? In most modern music, the beat is usually played on the drums. The odd beats are usually on the bass drum, which gives it a deeper and longer sound. The even beats are usually played on a snare, or cymbal, which gives it a higher pitched and sharper sound.

You can also count the music from the beginning of a verse or chorus. The music we dance to is always phrased with 4 or 6 sets of 8 counts per verse/chorus. There is usually some emphasis throughout the music (the percussion, the instruments and the vocals) when a new verse and particularly a chorus starts. If I think I'm dancing off-time, then this is the way I check.


David

From: http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2599#4

A picture has started to form in all this confusion :worthy:

Caro
28th-May-2006, 11:39 AM
thanks for the thread and finding old posts related to the subject. :flower:

Did you see this one (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8071)about musicality? Some of the answers I had might be useful to you...

Merovingian
28th-May-2006, 04:44 PM
Caro: Thanks for posting a link to that thread :cheers: , and no I did not find it during my initial search, but then I did not really know what was it that i was looking for.

That's a great thread, took me about 2 hours to go through and now I have a severe case of information overload :sick:

Say, Seniors/Forum Managers, shouldn't there be a 101 page for us beginners with links to all these fantastic threads?

El Salsero Gringo
28th-May-2006, 05:06 PM
4 (which is mathematically = to 8)Does that mean if I borrow £8 and repay you £4, that we're all square?


(lend me £80 will you?)

spindr
29th-May-2006, 12:10 AM
Say, Seniors/Forum Managers, shouldn't there be a 101 page for us beginners with links to all these fantastic threads?
Maybe you just need a guide (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/table_of_contents.html) :)

Gav
12th-October-2006, 12:33 PM
Having read this thread and all the links, I'm starting to think that I'm going to need a lot of help with this. :worthy:

Musicality is an area that I want to concentrate on now, but although I love listening to music and dancing, I have no understanding of music whatsoever.
Reading through all this in-depth help, therefore, has confused the hell out of me. :sick:

All the talk of bars, sentences, knowing where a break will happen and when the music will change pace. I had assumed that the flash gits just knew the songs inside out!

Does this mean that I'm going to have to take basic music lessons to be able to develop my musicality?

straycat
12th-October-2006, 12:50 PM
Does this mean that I'm going to have to take basic music lessons to be able to develop my musicality?

Not really. You need that in-depth knowledge if you're going to explain it to people, and lessons may well help - but for dancing purposes, quite honestly, you just need an instinctive feel - and you can get that by listening to music (a lot), and simply paying attention to it.

I don't know a lot of music theory (understatement of the year) - but I can often anticipate breaks, say, in tracks I've never heard before... and that just comes from knowing the type of music, and having a feel for typical patterns that are used. I don't think "Ah - this is a swing track, so there'll be a break in six bars time" - I just can feel from the way the track is going that we're working up to the break, and roughly when it's going to come.

It's just a case of learning to listen to the track in a slighly 'deeper' fashion than you normally might - listen to what the different instruments are doing, listen for different rythmns in the drumming, percussion, singing etc, listen for repeating patterns, and so on and so forth.

One exercise I like doing, for example, is to listen to a track, pick out one instrument, and dance to that, rather than to the main beat or melody...

After a while, this just gets instinctive.

Stray

Gadget
12th-October-2006, 01:19 PM
Does this mean that I'm going to have to take basic music lessons to be able to develop my musicality?
Na - most of it just comes with time and listening to the music.

A 'shortcut' I quite like is this:
Can you whistle the tune you're dancing to? Odds are that what you are whistling is the primary instrument at that time - dance to what you would whistle. Ignore the beats and 'thump-thump' going on behind it: the melody you are whistling will already be structured to match it, and you already know how to dance to that bit. Dance to your whistle.

Another one is to pretend you are conducting the track - especially good for the preperation into changes and breaks in the music.

Hope this helps :waycool:

CJ
12th-October-2006, 01:51 PM
FYI:

I am teaching a musicality workshop in St.Neots on 29th Oct. The workshop explores music from a musician's point of view for dancers to learn what to listen for, how they hear music and to hear the clues given to you within each individual song.

Musicians and dancers peak the same language, albeit sometimes with different dialects.:waycool:

straycat
12th-October-2006, 02:06 PM
Musicians and dancers peak the same language, albeit sometimes with different dialects.:waycool:

... and often from different planets :whistle:

Caro
14th-October-2006, 11:34 AM
Having read this thread and all the links, I'm starting to think that I'm going to need a lot of help with this. :worthy:

Musicality is an area that I want to concentrate on now, but although I love listening to music and dancing, I have no understanding of music whatsoever.
Reading through all this in-depth help, therefore, has confused the hell out of me. :sick:

All the talk of bars, sentences, knowing where a break will happen and when the music will change pace. I had assumed that the flash gits just knew the songs inside out!

Does this mean that I'm going to have to take basic music lessons to be able to develop my musicality?


An excellent way to get started on musicality is to do a workshop - like CJ's or Amir's :worthy: . I did my first workshop on musicqlity about a year ago with Amir and it was a complete eye-opener and the beginning of a new journey in my dancing.

If you are interested (even midly) in WCS, Jordan and Tatiana have got a DVD called 'musicology' that contains heaps of great info, much of it you can use in MJ as well. Website here (http://www.jordantatianaswing.com/), with links to order forms.

Good luck :flower:

Lynn
14th-October-2006, 03:57 PM
Not really. You need that in-depth knowledge if you're going to explain it to people, and lessons may well help - but for dancing purposes, quite honestly, you just need an instinctive feel - and you can get that by listening to music (a lot), and simply paying attention to it.

I don't know a lot of music theory (understatement of the year) - but I can often anticipate breaks, say, in tracks I've never heard before... and that just comes from knowing the type of music, and having a feel for typical patterns that are used. I don't think "Ah - this is a swing track, so there'll be a break in six bars time" - I just can feel from the way the track is going that we're working up to the break, and roughly when it's going to come.

It's just a case of learning to listen to the track in a slighly 'deeper' fashion than you normally might - listen to what the different instruments are doing, listen for different rythmns in the drumming, percussion, singing etc, listen for repeating patterns, and so on and so forth.

One exercise I like doing, for example, is to listen to a track, pick out one instrument, and dance to that, rather than to the main beat or melody...

After a while, this just gets instinctive. :yeah: I don't normally quote a post in full but couldn't find any bits to leave out. That's all exactly what I do. I have a friend who is a musician and who can explain in detail why some music 'swings' or 'rocks' but my understanding is extremely limited.

I've had to think about it a little more to hear the 'correct' timing for cha cha, but other than that I just 'feel' the music. I've listened to music all my life, perhaps that helps. I'm aware I listen to some music differently now since dancing - though not always consciously differently.

Jhutch
18th-October-2006, 01:30 PM
On a slightly different note, i have found that dancing appears to have improved my musical ability. I have owned a guitar for several years but never really progressed beyond some of the simplest things. I would find that if i didn't play for a few weeks then i would have regressed back a long way. However, having started dancing i have found that i can now pick it up and play it better than when i have played it fairly consistently in the past:really: :sick: Admittedly this is a fairly low standard that i am comparing it too (:blush: ) but i guess that thinking more about the beat and having to cope with both hands doing different things has had quite large benefits elsewhere. :clap:

Listener
24th-October-2006, 03:18 PM
What an interesting thread, I've been dancing 10 months now and have been trying to a little more regarding musicality for about 3 now since I felt confortable with my set of moves and can pretty much do them without thinking too much about "what shall I do next"!.

I have the basic moves ok and a few intermediate ones, I found putting musicality in is ahampered by a lack of move choices. Here's some things I've found/been advised....in no particular order:

I have only just discovered the beat counting thing but even if you haven't got that mastered (I still haven't) just knowing a song helps. Pick a few songs you know well and listen to the breaks and peaks and troughs in the music so you know when they are coming. Simple musicality things are:

Putting in double return spins works well.
Simply stop the move at a break halfway through the move!!!
The "in swing" of the basket works well when the music "soars" or just after a break.
Similarly the first move is a good post break move as it has an element of gliding into the position. Especially if you exaggerate the step back on the basket or first move.

A lot of moves work better on slow or sat songs only (again I think) so be choosy.....if I could remember some of the names I'd give examples :sick:

A lot of cool stuff you see on the dance floor involves drops and "romancers" - I only have one in my repertoire and sometmes like to end a song with it but sometimes people overuse those in the wrong places (I am told! lol).

I find swing easier to interperate than modern club stuff, unless you are familiar with the track I think its hard to spot the breaks.....and end of the song lol!

The comb is obviously a good one to put in for itnerpertation but I get very very hot and despite having several shirt changes in an evening I always feel slightly reluctant to subject my partner to too many of them :wink:

Well that's my limited knowledge but form a "starting to interperate music" perspective if it helps.

Oh yeah and someone said the other day why not just dance through the breaks - especially longer ones, as if you MEAN IT - kind of contra-musicality........!

Gav
24th-October-2006, 03:27 PM
Oh yeah and someone said the other day why not just dance through the breaks - especially longer ones, as if you MEAN IT - kind of contra-musicality........!

Haha! I'll use that one as my excuse for completely missing the breaks! :D

Yeh, I kept going through the breaks by choice to define my style! :whistle: :cool:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Listener
24th-October-2006, 03:37 PM
..........lol, could be extended to "I'm not out of time I'm hitting the off beats" do you think ............... :wink:

Gav
24th-October-2006, 03:39 PM
or how about, "have you never seen anyone do the man-spin fallover before?, it's one I learnt in an advanced workshop."

straycat
24th-October-2006, 03:57 PM
I find swing easier to interperate than modern club stuff, unless you are familiar with the track I think its hard to spot the breaks.....and end of the song lol!

The structure of swing is great for that. Complex music in a very simple structure, which allows you to predict a lot about a track, even when you've never heard it before.


Oh yeah and someone said the other day why not just dance through the breaks - especially longer ones, as if you MEAN IT - kind of contra-musicality........!

There's no need at all to simply stop on a break. I do do that a fair bit, yes, but I also use 'em just to put in some kind of dramatic change in the dance, or simply something to punctuate it. Acknowledge the breaks as well, but there's a lot of other fun things to do which don't involve just stopping :)

Caro
24th-October-2006, 03:58 PM
...

A lot of cool stuff you see on the dance floor involves drops and "romancers" ...

I haven't seen many of those lately :rolleyes:

However seducers are quite frequent :rofl:

Listener
24th-October-2006, 04:57 PM
Well I did say I was fairly new to this.............I'll get my coat :wink:

Whilst we're on the subject of terminology tho, what's the other one - drops is obviously when you lower the partner to a greater or lesser extent and in a controlled fashion(!)

I think seducers ( to use the new fangled terminology :wink: ) are when you wrap the aprtner in to you and lean in or support them in some way....is that right?

What the other one? Is it lifts......?

PS my girlf will *sigh* at this faux pas - I'm forever using the wrong words to say things which apparantly makes comprehension of my meaning quite difficult!

Gadget
24th-October-2006, 06:11 PM
Dips, Drops and Seducers:

These threads ask the same question:
Dips/drops/seducers (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8791)
Dips vs Seducers vs Drops (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7163)

and there are lots of others about ettiquete, how/when to teach them etc. Do a search for "seducer" :flower: