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Breeny
24th-May-2006, 12:35 PM
Been dancing now for the last 6 years started in Solihull then moved on i have noticed more and more that a lot of people that have been dancin for 6 months or more are turning their backs on all the new people that attend there venues. saying " i don't like to dance with new people its too hard", :angry: "humping the beginners around kills me",:mad: "i'm not askin them they don't know how to dance......ect:eek:

is this just me or are people becoming Ceroc SNOBS

have your say breeny:angry:

Aleks
24th-May-2006, 12:42 PM
Hello Breeny!

These people are referred to as Hotshots here....I am sure someone will post relevant links to previous threads about this soon.

azande
24th-May-2006, 12:50 PM
like this one: What is a Hotshot Dancer? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5839&highlight=hotshot)

Aleks
24th-May-2006, 12:58 PM
Exactly - thank you.

LMC
24th-May-2006, 01:14 PM
Confession of an ex-hot shot: I can't remember whether I was ever brave enough to post this...

I certainly went through a stage for about three or four months where I was very reluctant to dance with beginners for the following reasons:

1. As the leader is (supposed to be!) in control of the dance, it can frequently be more frustrating for a follower to dance with a beginner lead than vice versa.

2. I was "good enough" to follow a variety of intermediate moves, but was completely dependent on the lead for style and musicality - as I was NOT good enough to 'multi-task' - i.e. follow moves well (in terms of frame, connection, posture, speed of reaction) and think about style/musicality all at the same time. This meant that just following beginner moves was BORING and sometimes painful.

As my dancing and following have improved, I can take more 'control' of a dance without backleading - i.e. time spins to get the leader back on beat again; do a quick ball change or adjust my frame/posture to neutralise "odd" moves, yanking or spaghetti leads; think about my spare arm/other style points and finally, listen more to the music - identifying breaks even if we're not hitting them! This means that dancing with beginners can make a nice change, because it allows me to focus on me, whereas some leads are so challenging (although wonderful!) that I'm still dependent on their style, musicality, etc and just have to concentrate on following!

Like Trampy, I'm just a beginner (the more I learn, the more I seem to need to learn).

The below has been quoted so many times before, but it's oh-so-true:

"Beginning dancer: knows nothing, dances with anyone.
Intermediate dancer: knows everything; too good to dance with beginners.
Hotshot dancer: too good to dance with anyone.
Advanced dancer: Dances everything. Especially with beginners."
- Dick Crum

LMC
24th-May-2006, 01:33 PM
Yeah yeah, shouldn't quote myself, but more musings:

1. As the leader is (supposed to be!) in control of the dance, it can frequently be more frustrating for a follower to dance with a beginner lead than vice versa.
I respectfully submit the evidence that I've only just graduated to intermediate lead and get far more frustrated with my own limitations and lack of variety of moves than I ever get with any follower.

And the "reasons" are just that - possible reasons, not acceptable excuses for refusing to dance with beginners. I never refused beginners when I was in my hotshot phase, but I freely admit that I used to avoid eye contact - now I often hunt 'em down, even when I'm not taxi-ing :wink:

Nick M
24th-May-2006, 02:09 PM
"humping the beginners around kills me"

I must admit, I have some sympathy for this point of view.

For years, I used to always go to classes in time for the beginners lesson, in order to work on my own style as well as dancing with the beginners. More recently I've been prone to back strain (too much air travel and computer work) and when my back is dodgy I've had to forego the beginners class as being too physically demanding and risky. Beginner ladies often need a considerably stronger and more directive lead, and they are far more likely to subject the leader to unusual and unexpected forces, if you see what I mean. So sometimes it can feel like "humping beginners about", and sometimes, as far as my back is concerned, it does "kill me".

Trousers
24th-May-2006, 02:34 PM
. . . . . . . . . . .humping the beginners . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Fnarrrr Fnarrrrrr

Personally I'm all for this!:devil:

Ghost
24th-May-2006, 02:41 PM
Confession of an ex-hot shot: I can't remember whether I was ever brave enough to post this...
:hug:


Like Trampy, I'm just a beginner (the more I learn, the more I seem to need to learn).
I'm a beginner, hoping one day to become just a beginner :clap:
"Beginning dancer: knows nothing, dances with anyone. "

The other point of view mentioned in once or twice is that Ceroc is a hobby. People go to have fun. Me, I'm strange. A lady smiling like crazy while we just dance one move over and over again makes my night. :grin: Other people enjoy themselves in different ways. And if that means they only dance with the smooth as silk dancers or spend all night dancing with their sweetie, good luck to them.

To each their own,
Christopher

johnthehappyguy
24th-May-2006, 03:11 PM
Here it is as requested Breeny:-


well i started my own venue up last year had no training some of the people that go there have now started to say the things i put in the post. people go to these venues to have a good time and meet people and enjoy the dancin they forget that they had to start once lol

looking forward to the banter
Breeny



John:nice:

azande
24th-May-2006, 03:13 PM
Here it is as requested Breeny:-




John:nice:
:confused:

johnthehappyguy
24th-May-2006, 03:45 PM
:confused:


Pm'd Breeny, who replied and then he/she? asked me to post the reply. hope this clears things up

John

Breeny
25th-May-2006, 03:39 PM
"people go to these venues to have a good time and meet people and enjoy the dancin they forget that they had to start once".

i now go out of my way to dance with the beginners as this will help them to become better dancers quicker, therefor giving all dancers a better night if people just want to dance with the best dancers then this should be left till you go to a freestyle. if someone has the bottle to come and ask you to dance then dont make them feel like crap and turn them down no one likes to be rejected it hurts
Breeny

LMC
25th-May-2006, 04:06 PM
You're preaching to the converted (i.e. pretty much most people on the forum).

We all deserve to have a good night - If people don't want to go out of their way to dance with beginners, then why should they? I'll dance with who I want to dance with (as long as they want to dance with me!).

As far as refusals go, there's no need to be rude, and any refusal should be at least polite, and preferably have a good reason.

Good reasons include but may not be limited to:

recovering from an injury, wants to stick to the partners they *know* won't injure them.
feeling like they are about to die of dehydration or their legs are about to fall off - needs drink/shirt change/rest.
has promised to dance with someone else.
just doesn't feel like it - in which case, accepting an offer from or asking someone else during the same track *is* a bit rude.
the person who has asked has a known unpleasant habit/smell (in which case someone should say something to them, or at least to the venue manager/other person who can 'deal with it').


Freestyles are my time. I wouldn't turn down a beginner "just because" they were a beginner - I would have a good reason - see above. However I deserve "my share" of dances with willing better dancers - the same as everyone - and if I've been taxi-ing for two hours, once I'm off duty, I need those dances to ensure the standard of my own dancing doesn't slip.

Plus, let's not get too precious about beginners. Most people are happy to dance with beginners - it appears to me that it's the new-ish intermediates that have the worst time of it: they no longer have the "excuse" of being a beginner, but they are frequently still struggling with basics and may, unfortunately, have picked up a reputation for a bad habit (e.g. gripping).

RogerR
25th-May-2006, 08:08 PM
I used to assist a teacher and, after the class, she went round the room giving the seated men a dance, and I went round the room giving the seated women a dance. --Some were great and some were a beat free zone! And I had a great dance with her as we met going round one each way.

I still try to get a good dance and get a beginner off their seat during an evening. Though at my recent local club the men so out-number the women that getting a dance is not easy:(

fletch
25th-May-2006, 08:40 PM
"people go to these venues to have a good time and meet people and enjoy the dancin they forget that they had to start once".

i now go out of my way to dance with the beginners as this will help them to become better dancers quicker, therefor giving all dancers a better night if people just want to dance with the best dancers then this should be left till you go to a freestyle. if someone has the bottle to come and ask you to dance then dont make them feel like crap and turn them down no one likes to be rejected it hurts
Breeny
I couldn't agree more agree, it is nice to have a FAB dance with someone who is better then you,:respect: but it makes my day to have a dance with a newbie and they tell you that they have had a FAB dance with you.:flower:

After all todays newbies are tomorrow's experts :worthy: if you don't rember them they sure will remember you:na:

Princess Fi
25th-May-2006, 09:26 PM
{snip} at my recent local club the men so out-number the women {snip}

:eek: - its the grail!!!!

A venue where there are more men than women

:flower:

ducasi
25th-May-2006, 09:31 PM
:eek: - its the grail!!!!

A venue where there are more men than women

:flower:
:yeah:

They must be doing something really right, or really wrong! :confused:

Baruch
25th-May-2006, 11:29 PM
i now go out of my way to dance with the beginners
I don't. Does that make me a bad person (or a "hotshot")?

Let me qualify that. I never turn down a beginner who asks me to dance - in fact I very rarely turn anyone down, and never without a good reason - but I don't always actively seek to dance with beginners. I often ask one or two of them to dance in an evening, but not always. After all, I've paid my money just like everyone else, so I think I'm entitled to dance with whoever I want to. Sometimes that includes beginners, but often it doesn't.

Actually, I've had some very enjoyable dances with beginners, but I'm afraid I object to the expectation that I must dance with beginners. Or anyone else, for that matter.

Ghost
26th-May-2006, 12:28 AM
I don't. Does that make me a bad person?
No, entering competions makes you a bad person :devil:


I don't always actively seek to dance with beginners.
I do - mainly because I've finally realised they're the ones who leave first so I need to grab 'em quick if I want a dance. That said I'm still fairly random in who I ask. It's more of a "move round the room in a cw direction and ask whoever happens to be nearest" strategy. (Or wait for someone to sneak up behind me, pull my pony tail and ask for a dance :devil: )


I'm afraid I object to the expectation that I must dance with beginners. Or anyone else, for that matter.
:worthy:
(Not looking to start a fight, but this is how I genuinely feel)

I also object to the expectation that anyone must dance with anyone. I know it's the Ceroc ethos, but I fundamentally disagree with it. But as has been recently pointed out to me "I'm a bad, bad man". Ironically although I've postponed a few dances for at most 5 minutes, I've never turned down anyone. But it's my choice to do so.

Be Well,
Christopher

MartinHarper
26th-May-2006, 12:50 AM
I've paid my money just like everyone else, so I think I'm entitled to dance with whoever I want to.

Heh. The beginners have paid their money, so by the same logic they're entitled to dance with you. Presumably they're entitled to that whether or not they are brave enough, or swift enough, to ask you for a dance. After all, Ceroc charges the same price to people, regardless of their courage and speed.

----

Anyways, if Breeny is running a venue, it's in part up to her to set the tone of the place. There are various ways that organisers can help encourage folks to dance freely without excessive regard to ability levels. This might mean setting an example, teaching intermediates how to have a safe and enjoyable dance with a total beginner, emphasising the benefits that both partners get from such a dance, and so forth.

Frankie_4711
26th-May-2006, 09:49 AM
One of the reasons I've started Taxiing is that I enjoy dancing with beginners. Obviously, I love to dance with experienced people too, but I will actively seek out beginners (even when I'm not Taxiing) and encourage them onto the floor. It's a nice feeling when you dance with someone several times during their first few weeks, or even months, and can see them improving each time, and you can feel a little tinge of pride knowing that you might have had something to do with their improvement (OK, it's entirely possible that you've had nothing whatsoever to do with it, but let's be positive here!).

And just because they are beginners doesn't mean they're not good dancers ... OK, maybe they don't know as many moves as someone who's been doing it for 10 years, but maybe they can do those 8 moves they DO know a heck of a lot better than the other person could ever do the hundreds that they know!! (And Yes - I am thinking of two people in particular with that example!!)

timbp
26th-May-2006, 02:36 PM
And just because they are beginners doesn't mean they're not good dancers ...
It usually takes just two moves before I ask "so what other partner dancing have you done?".
usually it's salsa, and I'm learning to anticipate the differences in following from the salsa dancers. The one's who come from ballroom can usually follow most things I lead. My favourites are those who've done solo dancing like jazz ballet. They are used to keeping their own balance, not relying on a partner, and tend to quickly pick up how to follow.

I've always liked dancing with beginners, but I'm finding there are different types of beginners. And in some cases I just get frustrated and hope the song ends soon. Generally, the one's with the hard grip, fingernails tearing my palm, rings cutting me (one day a diamond will come out of its setting into my hand, and I'm keeping it), generally, these are not the ones that make me regret dancing with beginners.
if a girl tries to move, makes some effort to follow, and appears to be enjoying herself (and I do look beyond the constipated look of concentration when deciding if someone is having fun), I'm happy.

But when a girl just stands there, lets a lead for a spin just flick her arm out and never recognises she should have turned, I start to wish I had a better partner. (I forgive those who let their arm flick out, then realise it was a lead for a spin, and try to spin, no matter how far off my understanding of the beat.)
And what to do about those who can't/won't even just step in and out? I've had partners with whom I've taken both hands and pushed them back as I step back, but nothing happened except their arms moved back. I led them forward as I stepped towards them, but only their arms came forward. I have come very close to (in the middle of a "dance") asking these girls if they want to dance.

J-J
26th-May-2006, 09:07 PM
well im pleased 2 say that i went to jumping jacks glasgow pne for 1st time other week and everyone was lovely to me thoi was new.

so i was very grateful.


ppl who are that upthemselves are likely just insecure

eevryones a beginger at some point!!!

Baruch
27th-May-2006, 10:38 AM
No, entering competions makes you a bad person :devil:
That's it then - I'm evil!:devil: :devil: :devil:

Baruch
27th-May-2006, 10:40 AM
Heh. The beginners have paid their money, so by the same logic they're entitled to dance with you.
Yes they are, and I have never turned down a beginner for a dance. That doesn't mean I should always ask beginners just because they're beginners, though.

As I said before, I'll dance with who I want to. If some of them happen to be beginners, fine. If not, that's fine too.

Lory
27th-May-2006, 10:52 AM
at my recent local club the men so out-number the women that getting a dance is not easy:(
Where's that then? :flower:

J-J
28th-May-2006, 12:07 PM
After all todays newbies are tomorrow's experts :worthy: if you don't rember them they sure will remember you:na:[/QUOTE]




:yeah:

thewacko
29th-May-2006, 02:26 PM
One of the reasons I've started Taxiing is that I enjoy dancing with beginners. Obviously, I love to dance with experienced people too, but I will actively seek out beginners (even when I'm not Taxiing) and encourage them onto the floor. It's a nice feeling when you dance with someone several times during their first few weeks, or even months, and can see them improving each time, and you can feel a little tinge of pride knowing that you might have had something to do with their improvement (OK, it's entirely possible that you've had nothing whatsoever to do with it, but let's be positive here!).

And just because they are beginners doesn't mean they're not good dancers ... OK, maybe they don't know as many moves as someone who's been doing it for 10 years, but maybe they can do those 8 moves they DO know a heck of a lot better than the other person could ever do the hundreds that they know!! (And Yes - I am thinking of two people in particular with that example!!)
:yeah: my sentiments exactly to see someone who was a beginner grow into a good or excellent dancer (knowing I had given at least a little bit towards there improvement) is quite mind boggling.
To dance with a beginner also allows me to show them that they can follow a lead, even if they dont know what they are doing, and also helps to create a bit of fun.:D I also actively encourage beginners in my taxi class to search out (and thats not difficult at Bow) intermediate dancers and ask them to dance, as they learn much more on the dance floor than they do in the taxi class:cheers:

At the latest Slinky's a beginner/new intermediate lady saw me and said "ah my hero" which certainly made my ego boost a bit:waycool:



However on the other side of the coin, I am also entitled to dance with who I want, so I don't only dance with beginners

Twirly
31st-May-2006, 05:18 PM
I’m a relative beginner (in comparison to most of the folks on here anyway!) at a year into Ceroc. I love dancing with the more experienced dancers as it’s a great way to learn and improve and I’m very grateful to those who do bother to ask me and provide a challenge.

But I also love to dance with some complete beginner who is probably terrified of the whole thing (how some of the guys come back does make me wonder as you can feel their hands tremble in the class and in the freestyle afterwards). Much as I love being challenged – the beginners give me a rest! Mind you, I was rather chuffed last week when a guy came up and asked “will you dance with an amateur?”! And he turned out to be pretty good too.

Your wife
8th-June-2006, 01:52 PM
It works the other way!

This happened to me last night. I went to ask a shiney new beginner to dance only to get buffetted away by his girlfriend who said she'd arranged for him to dance with an advanced woman. :angry: :angry: :angry:

It would be easier to dance with beginners if their friends/spouses didnt insist on playing the security guard.

Zebra Woman
8th-June-2006, 02:09 PM
It works the other way!

This happened to me last night. I went to ask a shiney new beginner to dance only to get buffetted away by his girlfriend who said she'd arranged for him to dance with an advanced woman. :angry: :angry: :angry:

It would be easier to dance with beginners if their friends/spouses didnt insist on playing the security guard.

That is horrible :hug: .

Next time, how about distracting the security guard girlfriend first - by sending in 'Your Husband'?

Just an idea...

LMC
8th-June-2006, 03:42 PM
Yourwife - how about: ignore the rude g/f, smile sweetly at the guy and say "Sounds like you're booked for this track, but feel free to come and find me when you're allowed to choose who you want to dance with"

I would have to be in the right mood to be this brave (and bitchy), but damn, it would feel good :devil:

On a more serious note - some beginners who come as couples have difficulty with the "a dance is just a dance" and they can dance with anyone concept. ZW's idea of sending Yourhusband over is a good one - after a dance with someone I know well enough at my local venue (and with their agreement!) the two of us will go "split up" a glued together beginner couple for the next dance so one isn't left behind watching :) (Credit to TiggsTours for this suggestion)

DavidB
8th-June-2006, 05:09 PM
I went to ask a shiney new beginner to dance only to get buffetted away by his girlfriend who said she'd arranged for him to dance with an advanced woman.
I don't see a problem with this.

I would guess most people on this forum have been asked "Can you dance with my friend? He/she is a beginner". If I say yes (as I would imagine most people do) then I don't feel as if I am doing someone a favour. But I would expect the person doing the asking to behave as if I was.

It is no different to promising someone the next dance.

straycat
9th-June-2006, 12:53 PM
I don't see a problem with this.

I would guess most people on this forum have been asked "Can you dance with my friend? He/she is a beginner". If I say yes (as I would imagine most people do) then I don't feel as if I am doing someone a favour. But I would expect the person doing the asking to behave as if I was.

It is no different to promising someone the next dance.

Maybe so, but it sounds like it could have been phrased a little more politely....