Learning West Coast Swing [Archive]

ducasi

23rd-May-2006, 12:18 PM

Hey, I thought we needed a thread (like the "Learning Tango" one) where folks who are learning West Coast Swing could talk about their experiences and get mutual support from each other. :nice:

I did my first "proper" WCS class last night with Graham Fox in Uddingston, not far outside Glasgow. (Here's his web site with details (http://www.westcoastswingscotland.com/) – note the class next week is in a different place!)

I really enjoyed the class, though I thought the pace was very quick... No-one was being left behind though, so it wasn't a problem – but it's a big contrast to a typical Ceroc beginner's class.

We were taught a fairly simple routine that had about 10 different moves in it – sugar pushes, turns, passes, baskets and whips. Really nothing I hadn't done before at a previous WCS "taster" class...

Remembering 10 moves in a (maybe?) 15-move routine, plus all the footwork, plus paying attention to my partner, plus keeping in time with the music was ... let's just say, tricky... But I thought I did all right. :)

I sat out the improvers class, though I didn't see anything fundamentally too difficult for me, but my brain needed a rest...

You can read more about the class here, on my blog (http://ducasi.org/blog/2006/05/23/step-step-tri-ple-step-tri-ple-step/). ;)

I'm going to miss the class next week (Holiday Monday), and probably the week after (Southport), but if I can figure out my transport difficulties I'll be back the week after that!

So, anyone else learning WCS? How's it going?

Tinkerbell

23rd-May-2006, 12:58 PM

Due to exams I have had to put my plans to start wcs on hold for a few weeks :sad:

I am going to start on Mon 19th June :clap: This gives me a couple of weeks to recover from Southport!

Really looking forward to it :grin:

Ducasi - hopefully I'll be able to help with travel. I'm sure we can work something out :flower:

Gill x

BeeBee

23rd-May-2006, 01:20 PM

I did my first "proper" WCS class last night with Graham Fox in Uddingston, not far outside Glasgow
So, anyone else learning WCS? How's it going?

Aw, I phoned Mr McJester last night to see if he was going along to that class. I wasnt sure where it was, but really wanted to give it a go. It turns out he wasn't heading out that way and I ended up missing it. If I'd know you were going . . .

I'm not able to do next week as I am taking my mum on 'Mum's Mystery Monday', and the following week is Southport (at last!), so maybe another time after that?

Glad to hear you enjoyed it though . . .
cheers
Beebs x :flower:

timbp

23rd-May-2006, 01:30 PM

So, anyone else learning WCS? How's it going?
I'm learning WCS. I guess it's going well.

Somehow WCS became the thing to learn (or, more accurately, the thing to teach) in ceroc in Sydney in 2006. I started going to WCS classes just to learn the basics as I thought everyone would be learning it.

After a couple of months I figured I knew the basics and the dance was nothing special, so I was going to drop it.
Then I saw Paul and Cat dance together. I wanted (I want) to dance like that.

So I went to every public class they taught in Sydney. When they left, I thought again about whether WCS was for me -- and I booked for every public class Jordan and Tatiana taught in Sydney (I considered the Melbourne classes, but decided following them to Melbourne might be stalking).

Where I'm at?

Since I started WCS, I've concentrated on the basics. But that suits my way of understanding. After several months of classes, and after Paul and Cat's classes, and after Jordan and Tatiana's classes, I'm now confident in the fundamentals. I believe I understand how the dance should work; I believe I understand connection; I believe I understand lead and follow.

And while I've been getting bored with just leading the basic moves, I've had fantastic dancers asking me to dance just because they knew I could and would lead the basics well.

Now, accpeting that I understand the fundamentals, I've made a deliberate effort to stop thinking about technique. I know I can do a six count or eight count pattern without thinking, so I've stopped thinking. I focus now on my and my partner's body. I think about where I want her and where I should be, and trust her to manage her own feet, and try to keep my feet under my body.

And it works!

I've now recognised a few partners with whom I'm comfortable making mistakes and who are good at WCS. So now I can play in practice time. I can play wiht timing; I can try my favourite ceroc moves in a WCS dance. Most importantly, I can move to the music and trust my partner not to stop me and say "I've lost my footwork", or (even worse) "You've missed your footwork".

--
Footwork? Who cares?
Dancing is about moving your body, not your feet.

Geordieed

23rd-May-2006, 01:44 PM

We were taught a fairly simple routine that had about 10 different moves in it – sugar pushes, turns, passes, baskets and whips. Really nothing I hadn't done before at a previous WCS "taster" class...

Remembering 10 moves in a (maybe?) 15-move routine, plus all the footwork, plus paying attention to my partner, plus keeping in time with the music was ... let's just say, tricky... But I thought I did all right. :)
It is absolutely brilliant that there are more opportunities for people who want to learn WCS. But Ouch! That doesn't sound like the way to learn the dance. Congratulations to more people taking up the responsibility of teaching though. Going through the basic 5 moves in depth over a period of time enables beginner/intermediate moves easier to execute. The social lead/follow aspect of WCS makes more sense whether you are dancing with anyone from any part of this country or another country.

ducasi

23rd-May-2006, 02:42 PM

It is absolutely brilliant that there are more opportunities for people who want to learn WCS. But Ouch! That doesn't sound like the way to learn the dance. Congratulations to more people taking up the responsibility of teaching though. Going through the basic 5 moves in depth over a period of time enables beginner/intermediate moves easier to execute. ... I think this is a consequence of going for a similar model as Ceroc where beginners can start anytime, and don't need to worry about missing classes. If they were only covering just the basic 5 (what are the basic 5?) moves in depth each week, the folks who have been doing it for a few months wouldn't be learning much...

I think the basic idea in the class I went to is each week they start from the basics and just keep working it up until it gets too hard... Several times I was given the opportunity to drop out if I thought it was getting too much for me. Both the baskets and whips were optional, but I chose to do them.

So, I could have just done four or five basic moves and left it at that. I thought I could do more. I'm glad I kept going to the end of the beginners' class. :)

ducasi

23rd-May-2006, 02:47 PM

... If I'd known you were going . . . Hey, never mind if you'd known... If I'd known you wanted to go!!!

12th of June is my next visit there. Hope to see you there... Maybe I could get a lift? :flower:

I am going to start on Mon 19th June :clap: Looking forward to seeing you then too. :nice:

Hmm... I wonder if I'll be able to practice any time between now and the middle of June...

Dorothy

23rd-May-2006, 02:52 PM

sweet succa

23rd-May-2006, 03:58 PM

I have found learning West Coast Swing a positive experience and similar to what you've already said. It's much harder than modern jive, and needs to be taught systematically and progressively, i.e. unlike Ceroc where I'm often taught completely different moves each week (not that that's a bad thing, just different). I have been to Lindsey & Brady's classes through in Edinburgh on and off, unfortunately I can't go consistently which has hindered my progression I suppose. I have found the classes very rewarding and never felt overwhelmed enough not to give the intermediate class a go!
:what:

I have also been to Lindsay and Brady's classes and LOVE it. This class is very different to anything I have ever been to before. The level of attention each dancer gets with poise, positioning, tension, compression, pace and styling is remarkable. :respect: Lindsay can be really funny with her jokes and Brady is witty too. :nice: I was welcomed as a beginner and felt really happy afterwards! There are lots of friendly people who help out so learning isn't so scary. I would thoroughly recommend it.

THE FOOTWORK - I found it took a few weeks to get the basics. It is worth sticking in as I think it looks really special when done well. :drool:

My soul is loving it!!

ducasi

23rd-May-2006, 04:18 PM

I have also been to Lindsay and Brady's classes and LOVE it. ...Hi Sweet Succa...

Yeah, I've really enjoyed the classes with L&B too. Shame I can't get over to Edinburgh for their regular classes.

Where do you normally dance (Ceroc) and we can maybe have a go at a bit of West Coast? :flower:

Alice

23rd-May-2006, 06:50 PM

Going to Cat and Lee's class tomorrow!! Yay:) :clap: :clap: :clap: I've been planning to go since I got here but other things got in the way:sick:

However, I am newly fired up after the class at the BFG, and decided it was time to do something about it:wink: I'm looking forward to getting my teeth into WCS in a proper class situation. Did a few classes in Sydney but not much so be nice!:flower:

Mary

23rd-May-2006, 08:25 PM

I think this is a consequence of going for a similar model as Ceroc where beginners can start anytime, and don't need to worry about missing classes. If they were only covering just the basic 5 (what are the basic 5?) moves in depth each week, the folks who have been doing it for a few months wouldn't be learning much...

I think the basic idea in the class I went to is each week they start from the basics and just keep working it up until it gets too hard... Several times I was given the opportunity to drop out if I thought it was getting too much for me. Both the baskets and whips were optional, but I chose to do them.

I still enjoy doing the beginners classes as there is always something new to learn or techniques to consolidate. And as for the 5 basic moves...............I am amazed at the myriad variations and stuff you can do with those 'basic' moves.

I have been doing WCS classes for a few years now, and still find there is lots to learn in each and every beginners class with Cat & Lee, whether it's hi-jack variations and techniques, more in-depth focus on tension/connection/frame, or maybe more about posture and lines. There is no way one can get bored doing beginners classes because there is just sooooooooooo much that can be learnt.

M

Sheepman

23rd-May-2006, 09:14 PM

I am amazed at the myriad variations and stuff you can do with those 'basic' moves.

I have been doing WCS classes for a few years now, and still find there is lots to learn in each and every beginners class with Cat & Lee :yeah: If I miss the beginners class with Cat & Lee, it's not because I don't excpect to learn something, it's usually due to the traffic! Though they do have the advantage of knowing most of their students now, so they can tailor their beginners classes for whoever is there.

Greg

Caro

23rd-May-2006, 11:30 PM

I've been totally hooked by WCS when I tried it at the BFG and even more when watching Gordon and his partner... :drool: I WANT to dance like that!!!

I'm getting SO frustrated that we don't have classes in Aberdeen. I've been told there are monthy classes in Dundee so I'll try and give that a go.

I'm thinking on going on a WCS holiday (I've made my mind to go on a dance holiday this year but haven't decided yet between ceroc; tango or WCS - life is complicated really and being a woman who change her mind regularly doesn't make things any easier :D ), but I'm not sure yet since I wonder what's best value for money: beginner WCS holiday / more experienced ceroc or tango holiday. Ha well... some serious thinking ahead :rolleyes: :D

Any way... good luck Ducasi (thanks for the thread) and others lucky enough to have weekly classes in their area :flower: enjoy for those who can't! :sad:

ducasi

24th-May-2006, 01:15 AM

I still enjoy doing the beginners classes as there is always something new to learn or techniques to consolidate. And as for the 5 basic moves...............I am amazed at the myriad variations and stuff you can do with those 'basic' moves.

I have been doing WCS classes for a few years now, and still find there is lots to learn in each and every beginners class with Cat & Lee, whether it's hi-jack variations and techniques, more in-depth focus on tension/connection/frame, or maybe more about posture and lines. There is no way one can get bored doing beginners classes because there is just sooooooooooo much that can be learnt. All I really mean is that there has to be some progression from these basic moves upwards, and beginners will likely have to be taught more stuff before they are ready to move on to improvers/intermediate classes...

Beginner's classes with *only* 5 basic moves offers no route for progression.

Also, each teacher will have his or her own way of structuring lessons, and while Cat & Lee may teach more advanced topics through basic moves, another teacher may choose to keep the basic moves basic during the beginner's class at least.

(Note, I'm not saying that's how anyone I've experienced teaches – I don't have enough experience of any WCS teacher's style to be able to generalise in this way, but it seems plausible.)

Peter

24th-May-2006, 11:16 AM

Dancing WCS in New York with 500 others, with a competition thrown in too, massively influenced my outlook on the dance!

Liberty Swing 16/17/18 Jun 06

- there is still space and flights too!
- 5 hours of free workshops with Robert & Deborah, Kyle & Sarah, Jordan & Tatiana, Robert Royston & Nicola
- freestyle dancing from midnight til 5 am on Fri and Sat nights overlooking the Hudson River and Manhattan
- $135 for the weekend dance competition (including the workshops)
- details at www.libertyswing.com
- at least 8 attending from London

If you arrive early, you can dance on Wednesday night at the Saloon and Thursday night too ...

But it doesn't come cheap - £360 for a return flight, plus $134/night for the (fabulous) hotel accommodation.

Sheepman

24th-May-2006, 12:30 PM

Beginner's classes with *only* 5 basic moves offers no route for progression. I can't agree with this, though I do accept it will depend on the teacher's methods & style.

I'm not saying that all beginners classes should comprise of 5 basic moves, without variation. (I'm sure I've heard that in WCS there are basically 5 moves, and all the rest are variations! At Rebel Yell last year Kyle & Sarah held a class in which they taught literally hundreds of moves. Not by teaching each of them individually, but by teaching how variations can be achieved, and then applied to the basics.)

Progression from the beginners stage is not about learning moves, it is about the connection, lead & follow, the footwork becoming natural. Maybe the fact that there are often more men than women in Lee & Cat's classes is a reflection that it is the men that need to learn the moves, but for women they need to learn to follow. (Not that this theory holds in most MJ classes :confused: )

Greg

ducasi

24th-May-2006, 01:41 PM

I can't agree with this, though I do accept it will depend on the teacher's methods & style. I guess what we're really discussing relates to individual teachers' method and style...

And the only point I was trying to make was that I don't think Graham's teaching method is "not the right way", but it may be different from what other people are used to. (I don't know.)

If I had had no experience of WCS before this week, I'd probably only have done a few basic moves for my first few classes while I got familiar with the footwork and such things...

From my experience in introductory classes at two of Lindsay's Dance Fever weekenders and with Graham at the BFG the other week, I think I had already covered every move that we did on Monday, felt OK with the footwork, and so felt able to do the whole class.

Actually, I think what we've really got here is a simple confusion between what I'm calling a move, and what everyone else is calling a variation...

When I talked about learning 10 moves, it's probably fair to say that these were maybe 5 or 6 moves, with some variations – e.g. a basket and a variation on it, a sugar push and a variation on it, etc...

Anyway, thanks for your comments, it's all helping me figure out how WCS works. :)

sweet succa

24th-May-2006, 01:54 PM

Progression from the beginners stage is not about learning moves, it is about the connection, lead & follow, the footwork becoming natural.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I cannot agree more - shake my hand

There is no point tryong to learn lots of flashy moves when the basics are not there, if the tension and connection is wrong then complicated variations look a mess and it feels awkward and unsafe.

In my humble and beginner opinion!!!!!

Peter

24th-May-2006, 02:10 PM

... it is the men that need to learn the moves, but for women they need to learn to follow ... Greg

But raw beginners usually can follow ...

In my case, it is taking a long long time to undo the damage caused by too much focus on Ceroc "moves" and not enough study of dance technique. In my (very) humble opinion, this applies to both followers AND leaders (or women and men, as we call them in the ceroc world). Cat and Lee's superb dance technique has been developed through thousands of hours of traditional dance training.

Lindsay

24th-May-2006, 04:09 PM

When I talked about learning 10 moves, it's probably fair to say that these were maybe 5 or 6 moves, with some variations – e.g. a basket and a variation on it, a sugar push and a variation on it, etc...
WCS shouldn't be about moves accumulation, things like CONNECTION, weight transfer, lead & follow, and leg positioning are sooooo vital in the first 6months. We spend lots of time on this, and I'm sure Graham does too, you should focus on these things first, and stick to your basic patterns. Forget variations, they will be done much better when you have the styling right.

I'm getting SO frustrated that we don't have classes in Aberdeen. I've been told there are monthy classes in Dundee so I'll try and give that a go. I'm thinking on going on a WCS holiday
Beach Boogie (http://www.jumpnjive.co.uk) is excellent value form money, and there will be a massive dose of WCS this year with James McLauchlan and Cat & Lee. And you'll get a MJ fix too. Hope to see you in Dundee too - June is last one b4 the summer.

ducasi

24th-May-2006, 06:11 PM

WCS shouldn't be about moves accumulation, things like CONNECTION, weight transfer, lead & follow, and leg positioning are sooooo vital in the first 6 months. We spend lots of time on this, and I'm sure Graham does too, you should focus on these things first, and stick to your basic patterns. Forget variations, they will be done much better when you have the styling right. I only mentioned the number of moves (or variations) we were taught just to give an idea of the complexity of the class. Because that was picked up on, I ended up talking about it some more... But all through the class we were being told about connection, lead & follow, posture, etc...

Perhaps a reason why I talk more about the moves than about the connection, leading, and weight transfers, is because moves are easy to focus on, but also perhaps because I already expect this technique stuff, as I'm used to it already – maybe not explicitly in every Ceroc class I go to, but it's almost always there and is made more explicit in workshops.

Honest question... Are these things so different in WCS from what a decent MJ dancer will already know? What are the subtle differences I should be looking out for?

I'll freely admit that footwork, posture, positioning, all these kinds of things, we don't get as much of in Ceroc, and so I am quite weak in these areas, and need to work on them.

But I have no interest in move accumulation beyond being able to make a dance interesting both for my dance partners and for me – not in Ceroc, nor in WCS.

linny lou!

24th-May-2006, 07:03 PM

Apologies if this isn't the right thread to post this but tried West Coast Swing a few years ago and really loved it :grin: would love to try it out again,does any1 know where the classes are in Edinburgh that i could go to August onwards? :clap:

ducasi

24th-May-2006, 07:34 PM

... does any1 know where the classes are in Edinburgh that i could go to August onwards? :clap: Lindsay and Brady teach WCS in Edinburgh. Details are on Lindsay's web site (http://www.boogienights.net/). :)

Lindsay

24th-May-2006, 11:00 PM

Fair point Dunc.

Honest question... Are these things so different in WCS from what a decent MJ dancer will already know? What are the subtle differences I should be looking out for?

Oxymoron in there somewhere... only teasing!! :D :wink:
Possibly not. Maybe Ceroc has started teaching these, I've not been to a class for yonks so happy to stand corrected on that one. But in WCS the main differences are posture, tension & compression, it's more grounded/smooth/less bouncy. But the dance principles are no so different to what is taught in other styles I guess.

Dorothy

25th-May-2006, 12:22 PM

I'll freely admit that footwork, posture, positioning, all these kinds of things, we don't get as much of in Ceroc
:yeah:
They teach all that in Oz, and under the Ceroc banner, why is that so different?

sweet succa

25th-May-2006, 12:51 PM

because I already expect this technique stuff, as I'm used to it already – maybe not explicitly in every Ceroc class I go to, but it's almost always there and is made more explicit in workshops.

I am learning both ceroc and west coast swing simulatneously. Maybe I am missing out on the technique taught at ceroc as I not aware of it being made explicit. When at ceroc I am focusing on moves and at WCS I am focusing on technique to get that smooth sleek look (I hope). Its like comparing chalk and cheese. I think WCS takes longer to 'get' whereas ceroc is more instant. I love both but do feel they are very very different.

It would appear that we are nit picking. Is there a problem here? :confused:

Lory

26th-May-2006, 05:36 PM

I What are the subtle differences I should be looking out for?

In my humble opinion....WCS differs from Ceroc in the following way.

In WCS the leader shouldn't 'follow through' on moves, the follower has 'default' responses she must carry out....

1. to get back to her starting position or

2. to travel to the opposite end of the slot, turning, to end up facing her partner.

If the leader wishes the follower to pass him (left or right) he only needs to 'initiate' that move and then get out of her way, it's then the followers 'job' to know where she should end up.

If he wishes her to return to the starting position, he needs to initiate the move but then block her path, so she has no choice but to return to the original position.

The leader waits for the follower to reach leverage before he leads the next move.

Minnie M

26th-May-2006, 05:57 PM

IMHO The main difference I found is that the lead and follow is far more defined.

In MJ the follower often anticipates the move, which is not a bad thing as long as she doesn't back lead.

In swing (Lindy and WCS) the follower should NEVER anticipate, you must wait for the lead before moving unless you want to hi-jack the move (back-lead) and that would depend on the music.

I found that the lead in most WCS newbies - is far too quick (doesn't wait for the 6/8 beats of the music) - which is actually just dancing MJ in a slot :rolleyes:

Minnie Mouse :flower:
An expert beginner (I have been a beginner/improver Westie for 8 years now) :tears:

linny lou!

26th-May-2006, 06:38 PM

Lindsay and Brady teach WCS in Edinburgh. Details are on Lindsay's web site (http://www.boogienights.net/). :)

oh thats great thank you :hug:

pmjd

30th-May-2006, 03:57 PM

KatieR

30th-May-2006, 04:10 PM

I tried WCS for the first time at Brady and Lindsay's monthly class in Dundee. I really enjoyed it but think it will take a quite a while before I would feel confident in leading WCS as, compared to ceroc, I feel there is a lot more to take in and think about. Plus footwork is something I've never been good at, still can't lead a waltz:whistle:

However I'll keep going and trying to improve

I think the first 6 weeks with West Coast is definately the hardest. Once you have the basic patterns in your muscle memory, it gets easier. Thats just what I have found anyway.

pmjd

30th-May-2006, 04:19 PM

I can't make it to any of the weekly classes in Edinburgh, only the monthly ones in Dundee, so the first six weeks will take 6 months:eek:

I know it'll take a bit of getting used to before it all clicks and I can move with less thinking (if that makes sense). Just trying to remember the dim and distant past and how long it took for ceroc to sink in. Will let you know in six months if it has sunk in:grin:

Lindsay

2nd-June-2006, 11:03 PM

You should start your own 'practice sessions' up there - I believe that a certain Scooby Doo might be on hand to guide you :wink:

pmjd

3rd-June-2006, 12:18 AM

You should start your own 'practice sessions' up there - I believe that a certain Scooby Doo might be on hand to guide you :wink:

I'll get out the scobby snacks to try and draw them out and tempt them into it:wink:

WittyBird

6th-June-2006, 06:29 PM

I really really need to do this...............

I spoke to Cat last night regarding doing a workshop which she gave me a flyer for.......
11 June / 2nd July / 30 July / 10 Sept / 8 Oct / 5 Nov / 3 Dec

The Agenda is...
1.00 - 2.00 Basic WCS moves & technique
2.15 - 3.15 Improvers WCS moves & technique
3.15 - 3.45 Freestyle Tea Dance
3.45 - 4.45 Intermediate WCS moves & technique
4.45 - 6.00 Freestyle

I don't think that this is really what I want though ( If that makes sense :confused: ) I was looking for more of a full 4 hour intensive beginners workshop to then be able to practice to then move on to making the journey to Twickenham on a weekly basis.

I have spent most of the afternoon surfing to no avail

Any ideas or suggestions from you crazy people? :D

Lory

6th-June-2006, 06:45 PM

I was looking for more of a full 4 hour intensive beginners workshop to then be able to practice to then move on to making the journey to Twickenham on a weekly basis.

I have spent most of the afternoon surfing to no avail

Any ideas or suggestions from you crazy people? :D
Why not book a couple of private lessons, they'll get you off to a really good start :)

BTW.. me? Crazy? :innocent:

WittyBird

6th-June-2006, 06:48 PM

Why not book a couple of private lessons, they'll get you off to a really good start :)

Ok when is best for you :worthy:

BTW.. me? Crazy? :innocent:

It's all your fault anyway :clap:

Lory

6th-June-2006, 06:56 PM

Ok when is best for you :worthy: HA HA, you know I can't even lead a first move in Ceroc, let alone WCS :blush:

It's all your fault anyway :clap:It is??? :what: :confused:

Minnie M

6th-June-2006, 07:08 PM

WittyBird

6th-June-2006, 07:11 PM

The American Pros are now making regular visits to the UK - if you can afford it book a private with them, also whilst they are over here organisers will be booking them for workshops - all the Americans we have met so far in the UK are amazing dancers and experienced in teaching all levels.

Remember - Benji is at Southport in September and I believe Kyle & Sarah at Rebel Yell (Woking) in October

(I am not sure how much Cat charges for a private, however I would think it is a similar cost as the American Pros)

Thanks for that Lynda :D Only thing I don't want to do is workshops at a weekender I get so frustrated with 1000 ladies on please and it always seems so claustraphobic :mad:

I am really tempted to go down the privates route so will look into it :clap:

Minnie M

6th-June-2006, 07:15 PM

Thanks for that Lynda :D Only thing I don't want to do is workshops at a weekender I get so frustrated with 1000 ladies on please and it always seems so claustraphobic.........

I didn't mean weekender workshops - I was talking about local organisers booking them to do a workshop for their dancers.

I know of at least 6 organisers who are prepared to organise workshops for them when they are next over

Geordieed

7th-June-2006, 08:40 AM

Booking private lessons is a fantastic way to learn. Although it is an accelerated way to learn you will still need time for the information to sink in and get some practise on the dancefloor to adjust the techniques to yourself. I have taken a small number of private lessons by teachers in the UK and the professionals from America so I can highly recommend Cat as somebody to learn from.

Cat comes with a huge amount of credentials and is hugely respected both in the UK and in America. On top of that she lives in the UK. It can feel like a long way to wait inbetween the professionals visiting sometimes and with someone like Cat around there is no need to.

Simon

7th-June-2006, 11:21 AM

Only thing I don't want to do is workshops at a weekender I get so frustrated with 1000 ladies on Robert and Deborah were moving men around at Southport. That's just unnatural. :whistle:

The American Pros are now making regular visits to the UK - if you can afford it book a private with them[/I]I was slow off the mark and missed the opportunity to get a private with Deborah at Southport. :sad: What a plonker!

Msfab

7th-June-2006, 12:35 PM

I was slow off the mark and missed the opportunity to get a private with Deborah at Southport. :sad: What a plonker!

You really shouldnt be so hard on yourself!:rolleyes:

s9691

7th-June-2006, 12:44 PM

Why not book a couple of private lessons, they'll get you off to a really good start :)

Was so impressed with the WCS at Southport and am now desperate to learn.
Does anyone know of anywhere in the Cambs area I could learn?
Or if anyone would be prepared to come this way and teach a workshop - we have a lot of local interest, but nowhere to go :sad:

Sheepman

7th-June-2006, 01:00 PM

Cat comes with a huge amount of credentials and is hugely respected both in the UK and in America. On top of that she lives in the UK. :yeah:
We justifiably get excited about getting the US stars with major competition titles, & huge amounts of teaching experience, visiting these shores, but we're also lucky enough to have our own local teachers with world titles, dedicating their time and effort.

Greg

Rhythm King

7th-June-2006, 02:03 PM

Was so impressed with the WCS at Southport and am now desperate to learn.
Does anyone know of anywhere in the Cambs area I could learn?
Or if anyone would be prepared to come this way and teach a workshop - we have a lot of local interest, but nowhere to go :sad:
Try here (http://www.jjkdancin.com/Class1.htm)

s9691

7th-June-2006, 02:47 PM

Contacting them asap! thanks for your help Rhythm King :waycool:

Almost an Angel

7th-June-2006, 03:08 PM

Try here (http://www.jjkdancin.com/Class1.htm)

I contacted Jo from JJK recently as I'm stuck up in the Huntingdon area with work during the week and missing my regular WCS classes. Unfortunately it seems that the class is currently not running :tears:

I need to e-mail her back as I'm sure there are people who would like to learn but she obviously needs to get the interest up before commiting to a class.

I can lead/ follow WCS - if you let me know where you're going to be you can practice on me, or I'll show you some moves.

Angel xxx

Shaz

7th-June-2006, 08:58 PM

I am visiting family down south in a few weeks - would love to book a private - how much does Cat charge for a private and if I take a partner is the fee still the same ?

Chef

7th-June-2006, 11:37 PM

I am visiting family down south in a few weeks - would love to book a private - how much does Cat charge for a private and if I take a partner is the fee still the same ?

I am sure that you can contact Cat direct through the her website http://www.westcoastswing.co.uk. It is full of useful information about WCS all over the country.

Hope that helps.

Shaz

8th-June-2006, 12:34 AM

I am sure that you can contact Cat direct through the her website http://www.westcoastswing.co.uk. It is full of useful information about WCS all over the country.

Hope that helps.
Thanks for the link Chef :flower:

Just checked the web - but it doesn't give the cost of private classes but the workshops are £30 :eek: could someone PM me the cost of a private please, I don't want to get on to mailing her if I can't afford it.

thanks

Shaz
:hug:

Kev F

8th-June-2006, 05:57 PM

Minnie M

8th-June-2006, 07:07 PM

Just an inspiration post for us beginners :group hug smilie:

We learnt this routine at cat & lees class last night! :devil: (http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyjmeVYhEnVUAwnh1BQx./SIG=137r9f6h9/EXP=1149871902/**http://www.stacysuter.com/dance/videos/gma_greatest_dancer/gma-jordan&tatiana.wmv)
oh yeah :whistle:

Are you going to use some of it for the WCS champs at WSM in July :whistle:

Kev F

8th-June-2006, 07:52 PM

oh yeah :whistle:

Are you going to use some of it for the WCS champs at WSM in July :whistle:

I'll let you know that we have six moves now! (well five and and half as I can't finish one yet!) :D :rofl:

Minnie M

8th-June-2006, 08:03 PM

I'll let you know that we have six moves now! (well five and and half as I can't finish one yet!) :D :rofl:
Is that the one you will be twirling Lory around with your foot :worthy:

Limpy Tink

8th-June-2006, 08:32 PM

I'll let you know that we have six moves now! (well five and and half as I can't finish one yet!) :D :rofl:

Ah but you have ....how many variations :respect: .... bags of style :waycool: and great inturpretation :drool:

No-one likes a "move monkey" - Me thinks you underestimate yourself. :flower:

(Psst... does that earn me lots of dances?:whistle: )

Yogi_Bear

8th-June-2006, 10:40 PM

I contacted Jo from JJK recently as I'm stuck up in the Huntingdon area with work during the week and missing my regular WCS classes. Unfortunately it seems that the class is currently not running :tears:

I need to e-mail her back as I'm sure there are people who would like to learn but she obviously needs to get the interest up before commiting to a class.

I can lead/ follow WCS - if you let me know where you're going to be you can practice on me, or I'll show you some moves.

Angel xxx
In Norwich I'm even more stuck for getting to a WCS class easily. After a number of classes at weekenders (Jordan and Tatiana, Robert and Deborah, Paul and Catriona etc) I am hooked and looking for more. Contemplating arranging my weekends around Sunday workshops ans tea dances in Bisley, and Wednesday evenings in Twickenham.....
Ian

Geordieed

9th-June-2006, 08:49 AM

Just an inspiration post for us beginners :group hug smilie:

We learnt this routine at cat & lees class last night! :devil: (http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyjmeVYhEnVUAwnh1BQx./SIG=137r9f6h9/EXP=1149871902/**http://www.stacysuter.com/dance/videos/gma_greatest_dancer/gma-jordan&tatiana.wmv)

Saw J&T's new competition routine for this year and it is one of their best. One of those you have to make sure you don't blink.

KatieR

9th-June-2006, 08:57 AM

Saw J&T's new competition routine for this year and it is one of their best. One of those you have to make sure you don't blink.

isn't it just sublime :respect: :worthy:

Geordieed

9th-June-2006, 09:14 AM

I would love to see it again and again. It's not easy explaining some of the stuff that they do. When you first describe how he turns Tat into a double spin but with his leg it really has to be seen. The new equivalent is her double spin at 45 degrees off his thigh without assistance of any handholds. I saw her do it in freestyle with someone else recently and she made it look so easy.

David Franklin

9th-June-2006, 11:43 AM

Slight aside, but Benji and Heidi (3 x US Open showcase champions) have made into the final stages of the US show "So You Think You Can Dance? (http://www.fox.com/dance/)". The show is vaguely similar to Strictly Dance Fever, but my understanding is they're judged as individual dancers rather than couples. On the other hand, Benji/Heidi did their 2005 US Open routine as part of the final auditions, so I might be wrong.

Lots of discussion on some of the US boards - I particularly liked

Benji is the US Open Champion - that's like the superbowl for sparkly people.

Geordieed

9th-June-2006, 12:19 PM

I don't know the schedule for the show but I wonder who Wes and Jon might have to book in the place of Benji and Heidi if they cant make it as a result of the show.

Nick M

9th-June-2006, 01:07 PM

Slight aside, but Benji and Heidi (3 x US Open showcase champions) have made into the final stages of the US show "So You Think You Can Dance? (http://www.fox.com/dance/)". The show is vaguely similar to Strictly Dance Fever, but my understanding is they're judged as individual dancers rather than couples. On the other hand, Benji/Heidi did their 2005 US Open routine as part of the final auditions, so I might be wrong.

I just watched it last night here in NY state - the routine was totally stunning. It was Benji who was being "judged" - I gather he brought Heidi along to support him (as it would be hard for him to do the routine on his own). For the rest of the show, I guess he will dance as an individual, but the vote of the judges to keep him in was unanimous

David Franklin

9th-June-2006, 01:20 PM

I just watched it last night here in NY state - the routine was totally stunning. It was Benji who was being "judged" - I gather he brought Heidi along to support him (as it would be hard for him to do the routine on his own). For the rest of the show, I guess he will dance as an individual, but the vote of the judges to keep him in was unanimousI realise arguing with someone who's actually seen the show is pretty stupid (like that's going to stop me :blush:), but as far as I am aware, Benji and Heidi are both in the show in their own right, entering as separate individuals - indeed entering from opposite ends of the country.

It feels like some fun/games going on in as I understand it was presented as if she just "happened" to be available to partner him - some people on the FOX boards seemed to think he'd just grabbed her on the day and made up the routine on the spot!

Nick M

9th-June-2006, 04:34 PM

I realise arguing with someone who's actually seen the show is pretty stupid

Feel free! I was severley jetlagged and only watching with half a brain

spikey blond

9th-June-2006, 04:50 PM

Robert and Deborah were moving men around at Southport. That's just unnatural. :whistle:

I was slow off the mark and missed the opportunity to get a private with Deborah at Southport. :sad: What a plonker!

Hi Simon
What I would like to know is how you have got to the level of WCS you have when you don't even have regular local classes? Know you come up to London for workshops and have been to Bisley but we had some fabulous dances at Southport:clap: :clap: , your WCS is a dream - confession time??

Msfab

9th-June-2006, 04:57 PM

What I would like to know is how you have got to the level of WCS you have when you don't even have regular local classes? Know you come up to London for workshops and have been to Bisley but we had some fabulous dances at Southport:clap: :clap: , your WCS is a dream - confession time??

:yeah: :drool: :drool::drool:

Lory

9th-June-2006, 05:04 PM

What I would like to know is how you have got to the level of WCS ...
:yeah: That makes 3 of us :flower:

Minnie M

9th-June-2006, 05:13 PM

:yeah: That makes 3 of us :flower:
:yeah: 4 :worthy: :respect:

Simon

10th-June-2006, 10:55 PM

Hi Simon
What I would like to know is how you have got to the level of WCS you have when you don't even have regular local classes?Sad as it might sound, while my better half is relaxing in front of the TV with a glass of wine after a long day, I sometimes sneak off to the kitchen and practice by myself up and down the lino! :what: (God knows what the neighbours must think. :whistle:) I don't know many moves but I've tried to steal what I've seen on DVDs so most of my WCS is just down to mimicry. :wink: Besides, everyone dances better at a weekender when you get in the groove, catch me for some WCS when I'm coming at it cold and then you'll be underwhelmed. :tears:

Simon

10th-June-2006, 10:57 PM

but we had some fabulous dances at SouthportCourtesy of your wonderful and forgiving following! :worthy:

Msfab

12th-June-2006, 06:35 PM

I sometimes sneak off to the kitchen and practice by myself up and down the lino! :what: (God knows what the neighbours must think. :whistle:)
:rofl:A seat outside your kitchen would be very valuable

I don't know many moves but I've tried to steal what I've seen on DVDs so most of my WCS is just down to mimicry. :wink: Besides, everyone dances better at a weekender when you get in the groove, catch me for some WCS when I'm coming at it cold and then you'll be underwhelmed. :tears:
Yeah, believe that believe anything!:rolleyes:

Minnie M

12th-June-2006, 07:18 PM

..........Yeah, believe that believe anything!:rolleyes:
Funny enough I do believe that ............. it is possible to learn to dance by watching others. If you are a natural dancer and feel the music (as Simon is and does) he can feel if the moves he is copying feel right or not.

:respect: to Simon :worthy: a truly lovely dancer to watch and a fantastic lead for any follower. AND an extra special thank you to his very understanding wife :flower:

Limpy Tink

12th-June-2006, 10:03 PM

:respect: to Simon :worthy: a truly lovely dancer to watch and a fantastic lead for any follower. AND an extra special thank you to his very understanding wife :flower:

Now I'll 2nd that!! :yeah:

ducasi

13th-June-2006, 12:17 AM

Had my second full WCS class last night.

Found myself struggling with my memory and with some unfamiliar footwork... The rest of it is going well though...

As I wrote in my blog tonight (http://ducasi.org/blog/2006/06/12/one-two-triple-step/), I am enjoying this stuff a bit more, but I'm still not entirely convinced...

"if I can apply bits of WCS to my MJ dancing, and dance a WCS-style dance with a MJ dancer, isn’t that the best of both worlds?"

Please read the blog article for more on how the class went.

I'm off to practice my "back-together-forward" steps in my bed... Who needs a kitchen lino!? ;)

(Oh, and a note to my two potential partners – there's no class next week. Back in two weeks' time though... :))

ginger M

23rd-June-2006, 09:59 AM

Interesting to read about your experiences with west coast swing Ducasi, I have only had 2 classes (but in Edin) too. I have to say that blog takes some reading- it's amazing! Do you dance full-time?

ducasi

23rd-June-2006, 11:18 AM

Interesting to read about your experiences with west coast swing Ducasi, I have only had 2 classes (but in Edin) too. I have to say that blog takes some reading- it's amazing! Do you dance full-time?
Thanks ginger M :)

I only read the forum and write my blog full-time – oh, and work! – dancing is reserved for the spare moments when I'm not doing one of those things. ;)

I'm going to be at my third full WCS class on Monday in Uddingston – why don't you come along?

ducasi

27th-June-2006, 06:16 PM

Well did my last WCS class there... :(

Until August when it restarts! :)

Last night was good. Felt much more confident in my abilities. Feeling more positive... Don't know how it's going to go though with not doing any WCS for a month...

My main problem is still "fancy footwork" – anything beyond "step, step, triple-step" – that you get in some of the cool variations we were taught.

And I'm still having trouble remembering a sequence of maybe around a dozen moves used to teach the basics – even if it's pretty much the same routine each week.

Anyway, here's my blog posting (http://ducasi.org/blog/2006/06/27/run-run-run/)! Please leave a comment either there or here. :flower:

Oh, and there's good news for Central Scotland's West Coast Swing dancers – Graham is setting up a monthly WCS tea dance in a location that's promised to be convenient for both Glasgow and Edinburgh folks. May also get some folks down from Dundee – or further?

I'll post details on the West Coast Swing thread when I find out more.

Cheers!

Simon

30th-June-2006, 11:58 AM

Oh, and there's good news for Central Scotland's West Coast Swing dancers – Graham is setting up a monthly WCS tea dance in a location that's promised to be convenient for both Glasgow and Edinburgh folks. May also get some folks down from Dundee – or further?
How about convenient for Bristol? :waycool:

ducasi

30th-June-2006, 01:05 PM

How about convenient for Bristol? :waycool:
Aren't there cheap flights from Bristol to Edinburgh? ;)

ginger M

30th-June-2006, 03:20 PM

Thanks ginger M :)

I only read the forum and write my blog full-time – oh, and work! – dancing is reserved for the spare moments when I'm not doing one of those things. ;)

I'm going to be at my third full WCS class on Monday in Uddingston – why don't you come along?
Hi Ducasi, you must be a fast typer then!!
Your blog was good reading, look forward to catching up with your dancing journey. Wish I could dance more, but am a bit stuck for transport at th moment :sad:

ducasi

15th-August-2006, 02:37 PM

Back to WCS classes! :clap:

Was at my first class since the end of June yesterday.

Really enjoyed it. Read about it here (http://ducasi.org/blog/2006/08/15/back-to-wcs/). :)

I'm beginning to feel better about my ability to do this dance. I think though that going to the class after not being at work all day makes a big difference. First one thing my brain hadn't already shut down for the day.

I'm no longer counting out the steps, just letting my feet get on with it. OK, so they're not always doing the right thing, but I figure if I give them time they'll sort themselves out.

I guess one difference which helped me last night was we weren't doing any tricky irregular footwork, like the fancy cross-stepping we were doing before...

Meanwhile...

Oh, and there's good news for Central Scotland's West Coast Swing dancers – Graham is setting up a monthly WCS tea dance in a location that's promised to be convenient for both Glasgow and Edinburgh folks. May also get some folks down from Dundee – or further? First one of these is happening on the 2nd of September in Livingstone. Have to see if I can't make it there. :)

graham fox

22nd-August-2006, 11:20 PM

Hey everyone, just to say its not the 2nd of september but the 3rd which is a sunday. The whole idea of the sunday west coast session is to offer styling for men and ladies and a sunday seems to be good as it doesnt clash with anything and gives people doing west coast swing the opportunity to really get some practice and expert help with funky footwork.:clap:

Any one wanting to know more, just have a look at www.westcoastswingscotland.com

Happy dancing :grin:

ducasi

22nd-August-2006, 11:28 PM

WittyBird

22nd-August-2006, 11:45 PM

Hope I can still remember it all!

Yes I remember that well.

Thinking about WSM when I' done my first WCS class to have someone I grabbed hours later............

my words were ' dance with me see if I've remembered anything'
his words ' ok'
at the end of the dance - I made him count etc

yes it was pretty awful

me: 'was it really cr@p'
him: 'yes it was pretty cr@p'

Thanks Duncan :rofl:

ducasi

22nd-August-2006, 11:59 PM

Sorry! :hug:

Next time get me just out of one of Graham's classes rather than late night at a weekender when my brain has switched off. I'm sure then I'd have led you a lot better. :flower:

amadancer

23rd-August-2006, 12:57 PM

Diane starts her new classes in latino swing this thursday at Pollokshaws Hall. Since I have been going to her ballroom classes and love all the Latin American dances, I'm looking forward to learning swing with a latin flavour. I understand she will also be teaching tango in this session.

ducasi

23rd-August-2006, 04:11 PM

Minnie M

23rd-August-2006, 04:29 PM

Dave Hancock

23rd-August-2006, 04:45 PM

Really wish people would add their location to their profile - where the heck is Pollokshaws Hall :rolleyes:

In glasgow, Diane Isherwood teaching, am sure you know her from the past Lynda!

Dave Hancock

23rd-August-2006, 04:47 PM

Diane starts her new classes in latino swing this thursday at Pollokshaws Hall.
Had heard about this, heard it was like WCS but with simplified footwork and a little Latin styling, could be quite good. Also it's in a lovely hall.

Northants Girly

23rd-August-2006, 04:50 PM

Really wish people would add their location to their profile :rolleyes::yeah:

and a picture would be nice too :grin:

Minnie M

23rd-August-2006, 05:52 PM

In glasgow, Diane Isherwood teaching, am sure you know her from the past Lynda!

Yes I thought it was 'that' Diane, haven't seen her for years - wonderful dancer. Graham told me she was teaching latin, say hello from me please amadancer.

Sorry if I have offended - {rant start} Franck's Scottish forum is actually international and is the best MJ forum about, and for this reason I just don't understand why people (especially new forumites) don't put true their location on - is it to be annoying, elusive, or just to hide their identity :what: and it is so confusing when recommending local dances etc.{/rant end}

robd

11th-September-2006, 11:12 AM

I took my first ever WCS workshop yesterday in Corby with JiveP. I am really pleased I made the effort to attend as it was very enjoyable (and it was me who was late not the teacher :rolleyes: ). The simple expedient of wearing jeans to dance in immediately marked me out as an accomplished westie (that is a joke of course). More seriously, the workshop seemed to move at a fair pace and we covered (what seemd to me to be) a lot in the three hours. Of course I have nothing to compare this against but I'm not sure relative comparisons would be useful anyway. My biggest struggles were
* switching between the 6 count stuff and the 8 count whip (and variants thereof) when mixing it up
* getting back into the footwork rhythm if something went wrong
but, hey, I've only done 3 hours worth so I should learn to sit before I stand before I walk before I run. Paul's teaching style is one I enjoy a lot and I'll definitely be back for more (though sadly some of the dates clash with Jango workshops) and, in time, maybe I will not be quite so useless when people start tripling on me.

Robert

Cruella

11th-September-2006, 11:18 AM

but, hey, I've only done 3 hours worth so I should learn to sit before I stand before I walk before I run. Paul's teaching style is one I enjoy a lot and I'll definitely be back for more (though sadly some of the dates clash with Jango workshops) and, in time, maybe I will not be quite so useless when people start tripling on me.

Robert

Well he'll be teaching it at Breeze too so you can get another couple of lessons in then. :D (His demo's rubbish though, so don't watch her!)

robd

11th-September-2006, 11:35 AM

Meant to add this to my original post but forgot.

What's the name of the track/artist of the very funky track that I can only identify as having the refrain 'I found a place' (I think). I hear it played around the place a lot and figure it's a good one for practicing WCS with.

Robert

foxylady

11th-September-2006, 11:53 AM

Keith J

22nd-September-2006, 02:50 PM

Ceroc Surrey, ahem, welcomes Kyle and Sarah:respect: :cool: from the US WCS scene at Rebel Yell on 14th Oct 2006.:clap:

We look forward to some great classes and a top banana cabaret performance from them through Ceroc.

Hope to see all the usual suspects there.

Keep up the Whips

Lynn

6th-March-2007, 02:25 PM

The idea for this thread is similiar to the Learning Tango one - obviously not about AT...Mainly 'cos I'm learning WCS and I've found the Learning Tango thread really helpful so I'm hoping this will develop in a similar way and help myself and others on our learning curve.

So on that basis this would be a thread for technical dance discussion about the the process of learning WCS. This can include questions and discussion about technique, styles, teaching methods and variations and social dancing ettiquette.

Open to anyone who's learning WCS, even if you've only done one lesson - though it would be lovely if some experienced dancers join in and help out with advice and personal experiences. After all, we are all learning.

Starting off with where I'm coming from after doing the 'intro to WCS' classes on weekenders over and over again for ages, I decided 4 weeks ago at Southport that I wasn't progressing and I needed to just start dancing it. This has really helped as on my (admittedly extremely limited) understanding, WCS isn't just about patterns, its about feeling the connection and responding to the music. Following helps me learn about both.

Without exception, I've found all the WCS leads to be patient with me as a beginner, while offering me some challenges to follow and I really appreciate that.

But I've now got loads of questions, half understood concepts and new experiences I want to share and discuss!

Starting with frame. A simple explanation of the role of frame in WCS totally changed my understanding of the sugar push/push break - I think. The follower comes forward, maintaining the frame and the lead decides and determines the position and timing of the push. If the follow loses the frame then that interferes with the lead for the push. Is that correct?

robd

6th-March-2007, 02:26 PM

I hate to be a forum pedant but I am certain there is already a Learning WCS thread for just this very purpose. Moderator merge possible?

Lynn

6th-March-2007, 02:33 PM

I hate to be a forum pedant but I am certain there is already a Learning WCS thread for just this very purpose. Moderator merge possible?Sorry, had a quick look and didn't see one (other WCS ones but not one specifically like this one) but I could well have missed it.

If there is, its clearly not very active, so maybe its not something people want to discuss on here anyway.

ducasi

6th-March-2007, 04:31 PM

If there is, its clearly not very active ...
:tears:

I'll merge our threads once I've managed to dig mine up... :(

Lynn

6th-March-2007, 04:43 PM

Thanks. (Guess I was looking for Learning WCS!)

Sheepman

7th-March-2007, 03:53 AM

Starting with frame. A simple explanation of the role of frame in WCS totally changed my understanding of the sugar push/push break - I think. The follower comes forward, maintaining the frame and the lead decides and determines the position and timing of the push. If the follow loses the frame then that interferes with the lead for the push. Is that correct?
Sounds right to me. Essentially the follower should assume from the first lead that she will be stepping to the other end of the slot, (which may be at the end of the room if the lead doesn't stop her!) She only stops because the lead stops her. In practice being completely unaffected by the leader standing in your path can probably only be truly achieved by being blindfolded. The leader should partly absorb her compression with his arms, rather than being like a brick wall. (And there is inevitably a little absorbtion on the followers part too.) The frame should be maintained throughout. If you anticipate the compression, and lose the tone in your arms, then it just doesn't work.
This doesn't mean that it has to be "heavy", some of the best followers are featherlight in their tension and compression, but without any loss in the connection.

Greg

Lynn

7th-March-2007, 11:08 AM

This doesn't mean that it has to be "heavy", some of the best followers are featherlight in their tension and compression, but without any loss in the connection. Thanks. I think I might have to go through a 'heavier' phase while I'm concentrating on the frame - as long as I'm aware that's an issue, I can work on it.

I thought it might be good to get the basics of leading, partly as then I can lead anyone else who can do it, and also to help me in explaining things to any men I can persuade to give it a try!

So I now have more questions.... With the help of a DVD I went over the lead for sugar push, left side and underarm pass. I then went over to music with an imaginary partner - pretty tricky on the building compression bit as I don't think about it as a follower - I was building on the 3 & and starting to push somewhere around the & and 4? Right/wrong?

Also I found, when going over to music for the passes I didn't always triple on the 3&4 - I think I did a sort of tap. I've no idea why - I presume I've seen leads do this (my feet do tend to do things sometimes that bypass my conscious thought!). It seemed to work OK as I was still stepping with my right for the start of the 5&6. It also seemed to fit with some of the funkier tracks. Is this OK, or am I just being terribly lazy and getting into bad habits even before I've actually tried to lead someone?! :blush:

Geordieed

7th-March-2007, 01:13 PM

Also I found, when going over to music for the passes I didn't always triple on the 3&4 - I think I did a sort of tap. I've no idea why - I presume I've seen leads do this (my feet do tend to do things sometimes that bypass my conscious thought!). It seemed to work OK as I was still stepping with my right for the start of the 5&6. It also seemed to fit with some of the funkier tracks. Is this OK, or am I just being terribly lazy and getting into bad habits even before I've actually tried to lead someone?! :blush:

Bad habits I am afraid. It is not easy learning the way that you are. Full marks for what you are doing. Before you do anything else with footwork you must learn what originally should be happening. On each step you must transfer your weight from one foot to another. Yes there are taps etc. in the future but it will help your dancing no end by learning the correct basics first. It can be incredibly frustrating for alot of people and it is a mistake to copy things you have seen without knowing why it is being done. It will only end up looking like a poor imitation.

On the score of arms, let your body feel the connection and do the work. It is easy to wrongly over compensate through the arms and then they become tense the bisceps start getting used and the hand starts gripping. Sometimes dancers interpret frame in the reverse and end up cutting off the connection with their body through their arms. Remember the arms assist the body to receive information from the leader or follower not block it off. A good tip would be to try sugar pushes/push brakes using a wall for compression when following. Connection is a new communication skill that can be tricky to learn. Once we start learning about it we can continually update our knowledge of it.

Good luck with practise...

Lynn

7th-March-2007, 01:54 PM

Bad habits I am afraid. It is not easy learning the way that you are. Full marks for what you are doing. Before you do anything else with footwork you must learn what originally should be happening. On each step you must transfer your weight from one foot to another. Thanks, that's what I was worried about. Is a small weight change acceptable then?

It can be incredibly frustrating for alot of people and it is a mistake to copy things you have seen without knowing why it is being done. It will only end up looking like a poor imitation.I'm not copying anything intentionally, just that after I'd spent time going over the basic footwork, when I started to think about how to lead the move and only when I was going through to music, my feet just sort of did it. Oops.:blush:

I'll try and have a go at actually leading a few moves instead of just shuffling round by myself!

Geordieed

7th-March-2007, 03:03 PM

Thanks, that's what I was worried about. Is a small weight change acceptable then?

I'm not copying anything intentionally, just that after I'd spent time going over the basic footwork, when I started to think about how to lead the move and only when I was going through to music, my feet just sort of did it. Oops.:blush:

I'll try and have a go at actually leading a few moves instead of just shuffling round by myself!

We only really learn by actually trying things out as you are discovering. From beginners to professionals the basics are always something to return to and look at something different to help your dancing so it serves you well to do them as well as you can. I am going to visit America soon and while I'm there will try and dance with some followers who will be way above my ability. Getting at least the basics right is going to be one of my main concerns. Without a good foundation there is nothing of value to build on. It is pretty difficult to properly go through footwork over a forum. The way that you use your feet for the basics and change weight is something that should really be covered with someone in the room with you. There are steps that you can do where you can transfer weight but not place the whole of your foot down. Basically you refrain from using the heel of your foot. This can be within the compression of a pattern or as a means to travel or turn with more ease within the slot. I also use the word pattern over move. It is better to learn the dance than learn the moves within the dance once you feel that you have mastered the basics.

You are asking alot of good questions in the way that you are learning WCS.

Keith J

16th-March-2007, 01:56 PM

There is a huge 'technical debate' on all major WCS on this website link below.
its completely non commercial supported by a small hardcore of devotees.
A few have transferred from the dark side to this web site.

Forum homepage ~ a Runboard.com free message board (http://com3.runboard.com/bopping)

if you have any trouble with this look up Runboard on you fav' search engine

Fundamentally it is dedicated to the dance and the only forum I have come across.
Typically topics are:

Frame........ (:love: it)
Connection ....(are you:confused: check this out)
Sternum........ (somewhere you dance from :tears:)
Posting ...(we ain't talking the Post office here people)
Counting & timing ...(1 & 2 & 3 etc)
Evolution ..... (should I lean, should I not lean)
Elasticity.......(why not join the rubber band)

& more
This could change your dancing..........:cheers:

Lynn

16th-March-2007, 02:11 PM

There is a huge 'technical debate' on all major WCS on this website link below.
its compleetly non commercial supported by a small hardcore of devotees.
A few have transferred from the dark side to this web site. I'm one who has already tracked this down (after trying with limited success to engage folk on here with technical discussion on WCS - it just doesn't seem to take off on MJ discussion boards the way technical AT discussions do). Lots of useful stuff on there.

Lynn

16th-March-2007, 02:17 PM

Lots of useful stuff Thanks!
I also use the word pattern over move. It is better to learn the dance than learn the moves within the dance once you feel that you have mastered the basics.I've started talking about pattern instead of move - learning the terms gradually.

And yes, I will be limited in how much I can learn from discussion and watching DVDs. But I will learn something - and when I do get to go to workshops and dance with others, all those bits of learning will build together. Its not ideal, but its the only option I have.

robd

21st-May-2007, 11:58 AM

Went to Bisley again yesterday for only the 2nd time though I hope to make it along more regularly in future. Once again it was fun but also very challenging (and not just the ice rink slippiness of the floor :sick: )

I think yesterday I hit one of those walls that convince a lot of people that they just can't get WCS. I am now happy (my proficiency is not for me to judge) dancing the 5 basics socially (without counting out loud :wink: ) and have a couple of whip variations but going beyond that tends to phase me - be it more complex patterns, follower hijack/pattern extensions or just trying to do more with the music. Yesterday's workshop focussed on (I think it was termed) 'rhythmical and lyrical swing' i.e musicality and allowing the music to determine your movement not just leading pattern after pattern. Paul and Cat demonstrated some great stuff that was inspiring but also pretty intimidating. My social dancing was not very good but I was trying different things and the experienced followers were all very tolerant and encouraging (though the dance was ended with a euphemistic 'that was fun' rather too many times for my liking :sad: ) Having said that, Paul explained (much as Amir does at the monthly Jango) that the workshop was pitched at a challenging level so that it could offer something to people at all experience levels and people should not be disheartened at hitting the ceiling of their current ability. I doubt there was anyone doing the class there yesterday who wasn't challenged by it.

Robert

Sparkles

21st-May-2007, 12:16 PM

Being challenged is never a bad thing - even if it feels like too much too soon at the time.
I used to be so frustrated with being bombarded with information that my brain and body couldn't process - and of course I am still constantly bombarded in this way but I now just try to relax (rather than get irritated) and remind myself that it will all sink in with time.

Your brain works on information while you're not conciously thinking about it, your body remembers things and sometimes picks up new things while dancing without you even trying (it's always a nice surprise when this happens). And one day you'll have a dance and one/some/all things that you didn't think you'd ever get will just click. I had an epiphany like that with ballroom dancing and maybe one day I will have something similar with other dance styles.

It's always better to have more information than less. The more times you're told it the more you will come to understand it. I remember being told some very complicated things about timing in WCS by Paul W and I started to lose the plot with what he was saying because it was so complicated :sick: but I thought "just look out for it and maybe it'll come along one day" - and about a month later, the split-timing he was referring to just 'happened' with a random person I was dancing with and I couldn't stop smiling all the way home - because now it made sense!

I agree that sometimes the demonstartion dances teachers do can feel intimidating, and I think I personally prefer it when they demonstrate *just* what they are teaching/have taught in the workshop, and not just freestyle/showcase the best of their dancing ability. But that's just a personal opinion.

Geordieed

21st-May-2007, 12:50 PM

Once again it was great to see the workshop going from strength to strength. Even though the class was split for a repeat beginner class and an improver class the large hall was still very much full.

The 2nd section of the workshop was the end of a series of modules covering the dance itself. The 3rd section was something new to help make dancing WCS make more sense.

There was something for everyone depending on knowledge and understanding of the dance. I can see how you might have misunderstood what you saw although if you have ever seen Paul and Cat really perform then you'll know they weren't doing that yesterday...

Leg Warmers

21st-May-2007, 01:29 PM

My social dancing was not very good but I was trying different things and the experienced followers were all very tolerant and encouraging (though the dance was ended with a euphemistic 'that was fun' rather too many times for my liking :sad: )
Robert

Hey Rob - I had some really great dances with you - you have fantastic musicality :cheers: and made my social dancing fun:hug: [as i'm not at the stage where i'm asked to dance very much but i'm getting there :nice: ]

The workshop yesterday was very challenging but great fun too, and certainly helped to encourage my improvisation through listening to the music rather than focus purely on the frame, count, footwork etc.. :tears:

I have, myself only been dancing WCS for a month after Ceroc'ing for 14 years, so I was amazed at how technically challenging a dance it is..

..and the real experienced WCS'rs [you know who you are :flower: ]make it look so easy

:respect: :respect: :respect:

Miguel

30th-August-2007, 11:53 AM

West Coast Swing Radio (http://www.last.fm/listen/globaltags/West%20Coast%20swing)

(Just discovered this link). Listening to the music played, it makes it very easy to get the count.

johnnyman

5th-September-2007, 08:11 AM

It has been an eye-opening two years and counting for me and possibly a bit of time before that when I caught fragments of the dance. Jordan and Tatiana at Rebel Yell in 2003 I think was the start off point for me, then seeing a Strictly Swing Finals DVD the following year through a friend who kindly gave me a copy to review, which incidentally I watch more than my hundreds of movies on DVD in my collection.

I enjoy the classes and are patient enough to realize that I have not got it as quickly as MJ, but in all fairness, I want to do it right, not give up and expect there to be a Jive version of it. It's not an objective of mine to become a good competition dancer (I entered the Lucky Dip at the Ceroc Champs seven years running and never got anywhere after the third round), but to be a competent social dancer in the same way I am now with Jive. If I can achieve that goal in the future, then that will be my prize.

It is also nice to have a bunch of dancers and instructors who are inspirational to you in a world that at present lacks it in other areas at times. So thank you to all those in this group.

best
johnnyman

MartinHarper

26th-October-2007, 05:21 PM

Chef

26th-October-2007, 05:50 PM

One question: with the Whip, a common problem is for them to fail to rotate as they pass me (beats 2-3), which breaks the move somewhat. What's the best way for us to resolve this problem?

Despite being a beginner at WCS I think I might be able to offer some help here.

MJ followers are used to walking towards the leader in moves like the first move, hatchback and yo-yo and allow their hand and arm to break frame so that they can stay facing in the same direction as the leader takes the followers hand to his left shoulder and the step hip to hip. This is all well and good for MJ.

However for WCS there are two things that would get the follower to start turning on 2. WCS followers are trained to always keep their hand in front of their body. So as they aproach the leader and go past them they have to start turning to face their own hand. Another thing is that followers are taught to alway face towards the mans chest, so as the man gathers his feet on beat 2 and turns his chest towards his partner in a contra body fashion the only way that the follower can face his chest is to also start turning by beat two.

There is a very compelling reason why the woman might start turning by beat two. By beat two the leader is offering his right hand out at a level to collect her shoulder blade in his hand. If she has not turned 180 degrees by beat 3 she will have a pain in her right shoulder as her arm is held back and her right breast will be in her leaders hand.

NZ Monkey

27th-October-2007, 02:04 AM

Certainly the way I've been taught to do the whip the lady has to dance into the mans arm. If the man has to reach with it, let alone turn his partner with it the move becomes much less comfortable and good looking. You can lead a lot of different things from that position on count three, but the lady really needs to have put herself there to do them well.

I think Chef has the right of it - there are conventions that underlay the way WCS works, and although the dance is very permissive to followers it also demands something from them in return. It's an educated dance, and this particular example you've posted MH is quite a fundamental problem.

I'd say the best thing you could do is mention something what what Chef has suggested with following the hand or keeping the chests toward each other at all times. It's taught that way for a reason :wink:

There are probably a couple of ways you could try to physically lead then into doing this like stepping far to your left on count one and then back in on count two to collect her, but probably wouldn't look very good, feel very good and hinder anyone learning better technique they'll need later. I'd suggest mentioning the above points to her first :D

Sugarfoot

28th-October-2007, 12:44 PM

For me personally… I find it more difficult to learn than Tango or Salsa both of which I am still pursuing. :(

I put this down to the fact that there seems to be a lot more choreography in WCS. By that, I mean there are set pieces and responses and the follow must know there part in the dance. Due to these set pieces followers can take more ownership in WCS. My 1st impressions are that the ladies are picking it up quicker and expressing themselves far more than the men.

In both Tango and Salsa, I find I can lead ladies that have little or no experience. This was the case almost from the outset…not just because I am a better lead in those dances.

Another difficulty for me is the 6 count crossing the phrase in the music. It seems you either naturally round up the count by sticking in 8 counts etc or stops and breaks. This is also probably the case with Lindy. Where as...salsa uses the constant 8 of the music and Tango can choose to use it or ignore it altogether. I think this is why I find WCS more difficult to learn. Sometimes if the music is right it all seems to work without me thinking about it to much...other tracks cause me a nightmare even trying to find to one. Any advice on this please???

Many of the men are wearing Cuban heels. Are they really necessary? Do they really improve the dance? Mandy says she will disown me if I start wearing Cubans.:eek:

I must say that I have found the venue very friendly and sociable. Even though I am apprehensive about free styling with the ladies who obviously better than me, they don’t let me stand out for long and get me dancing. :flower::hug:

Lynn

28th-October-2007, 08:35 PM

Another difficulty for me is the 6 count crossing the phrase in the music. It seems you either naturally round up the count by sticking in 8 counts etc or stops and breaks. I struggled with this at first, and found watching J&Ts Musicality DVD a big help. I then realised its only really at the end of a major phrase that you need to either add in a longer move, or stretch out the end of the move. Well its the only time I feel its needed.

I have so much to learn about this dance, the only thing that seems to bother me is that I feel the vibe that you have to be a certain standard to be able to freestyle - there are so many more experienced followers than me, but how am I going to get experience if I'm not danicng? I've done the 'go round all the leads I know and ask them' and it really helped, but it never seems to get me far enough.

I like the dance and am not ready to give up on it yet.

MartinHarper

28th-October-2007, 11:35 PM

Another difficulty for me is the 6 count crossing the phrase in the music. It seems you either naturally round up the count by sticking in 8 counts etc or stops and breaks.

This (Lindy) video made me realise how using 6 beat moves across 8 beat music can work well.
Shesha Marvin and Nikki Klaus - holding 3 (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3806075299984252092)

mikeyr

29th-October-2007, 12:53 AM

NZ Monkey

29th-October-2007, 01:35 AM

A "J " Lead!! straight down the slot on beat one, then the curved bit at the bottom on beat two!An interesting article on the use of J-leads in WCS: FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 4.3 (http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/wcs_j_lead.html)

I think the thrust of the article is "don't unless you absolutely need to" which may well apply to Martin Harper in this case.

I wonder how useful it would be on a follower who isn't roating on a whip though. If she can pass the leader without rotating then she can't have a firm arm tone and I'd guess she's letting her shoulder rotate in order to stay in the slot.

If thats the case then a J-lead might just do the same as before, but rougher. Of course without actually seeing either MH or the lady in question this is just a guess.

Miguel

29th-October-2007, 08:37 AM

What's the best way for us to resolve this problem?

What are you doing Wednesday evenings? Come along to West Coast Swing Wednesdays (http://www.westcoastswing.co.uk/custom.html) and all your problems will be sorted. In the meantime go to Youtube and search West Coast Swing (or WCS) and whip. Hope this helps.

MartinHarper

29th-October-2007, 10:29 AM

Come along to West Coast Swing Wednesdays (http://www.westcoastswing.co.uk/custom.html) and all your problems will be sorted.

Look where I live.
Look where that class takes place.

Almost an Angel

29th-October-2007, 11:30 AM

I haven't had West Coast lessons for a little while, but I've had a few beginner West Coast followers ask me for practice dances, which I'm happy to lead.

One question: with the Whip, a common problem is for them to fail to rotate as they pass me (beats 2-3), which breaks the move somewhat. What's the best way for us to resolve this problem?

Beginner WCS follows are used to the more rotational MJ, where we move around each other, we are now asking them to forget this and learn to dance in a slot, and on top of that (as Chef pointed out) we're asking them to 'flashlight' or stay 'heart to heart' with their partner and adding in foot work - it's pretty confusing for us follows.

You need to ensure the ladies (follows) are matching your shoulder line on 2 by turning to face the lead on 2, so intead of being at either end of the slot you are both sharing it. As a lead by 2 you should have connected your right palm to the follows left shoulder blade (underneath her arm), the reason she steps back is you allow her to by extending your right arm to allow her to step back together then forward on 4, where as a lead you would straddle the slot. this is why she should turn out and not just follow a passing footwork pattern. The connection and lead for the whip is from the right hand connected on the follows shoulder blade.

What the follow should feel is 1 normal step down the slot, 2 rotation to stay 'heart to heart' with the lead and then connection from the leads right hand to change from a passing move, 3 the lead extends their arm allowing them to step back, and together then on 4 are led forward.

A lot of beginner WCS ladies are very hesitant with their movements down the slot and the commitment of their weight upon movement and this doesn't help the leads in their quest.

Angel x

Seahorse

29th-October-2007, 02:27 PM

For me personally… I find it more difficult to learn than Tango or Salsa both of which I am still pursuing. :(

Similarily, but it's worth the effort, (despite still working with the basics after four months - practising for short periods in the evenings or at weekends). I am not a natural Westie. For me, my problem is simply down to timing, learning when to pause at the end of a pattern, before starting the next. (I'm either too early or too late... story of my life!!!).

The Weds nights at Twickenham have been excellent. The teachers seem to change regularly - the classes are intensive though there is plenty of time to review afterwards. Everyone appears to be very supportive with their encouragement. And often it's just great to sit and watch the more experience partners as they freestyle.

If you can get to Twickenham then I'd recommend it.

Geordieed

29th-October-2007, 02:50 PM

MartinHarper

29th-October-2007, 03:39 PM

Martin if you can't make a workshop or Wednesday classes feel free to come and ask me about this and I can show you the mechanics of what your asking.

Cool, thanks. :)
When are you next around Worcester?

Geordieed

29th-October-2007, 03:47 PM

Cool, thanks. :)
When are you next around Worcester?

Not until the 1st week of December. Let me know what weekend freestyles you are attending in November if that can speed up the process...

robd

29th-October-2007, 11:27 PM

One question: with the Whip, a common problem is for them to fail to rotate as they pass me (beats 2-3), which breaks the move somewhat. What's the best way for us to resolve this problem?

I find this a lot with some newer WCS followers. Often it's down to them not looking at me on the 1 which means they fail to pick up on the positioning of my chest in order that they can flashlight me (the visual lead for a whip) in time. I'll tend to abort my intention to lead a whip at this stage and just let them pass me by. A J lead is the obvious answer but (like many aspects of WCS) you'll find differing opinions on the usefulness and fashionability of this - Michael Kilbasa seemed to me to use a J lead for his whips, Paul W does not - who is right? who is wrong? both? neither?

Additionally I am sure that J & T were teaching at Southport in June that the follower still be pretty much facing forward on 2 and the lead also facing forward and the rotation happening slightly later (maybe the &3 or the 3) - can't be certain as memory hazy but know I found it tricky during there classes to alter the timing I was used to.

Another difficulty for me is the 6 count crossing the phrase in the music. It seems you either naturally round up the count by sticking in 8 counts etc or stops and breaks.

I think it was Amir who noted that the inherently unphrased nature of WCS has given rise to lots of the fancy footwork and syncopations that we see within the dance. I am quite happy 'padding out' a 6 count move with a little weight shift on the 7,8 to extend it and fill a bar. If the connection's good it can feel very nice to do this though probably doesn't look all that great to a spectator in competition, say.

Beginner WCS follows are used to the more rotational MJ, where we move around each other, we are now asking them to forget this and learn to dance in a slot, and on top of that (as Chef pointed out) we're asking them to 'flashlight' or stay 'heart to heart' with their partner and adding in foot work - it's pretty confusing for us follows.

:yeah:

It's not easy for either leaders or follows.

A lot of beginner WCS ladies are very hesitant with their movements down the slot and the commitment of their weight upon movement and this doesn't help the leads in their quest.

Another big :yeah:

dance with the experienced ladies and note how they accelerate throught the 1,2 so that you can have their shoulder by the 2 without the need to fudge it by advancing up the slot towards them.

Good thread though.

Geordieed

30th-October-2007, 09:29 AM

A J lead is the obvious answer but (like many aspects of WCS) you'll find differing opinions on the usefulness and fashionability of this - Michael Kilbasa seemed to me to use a J lead for his whips, Paul W does not - who is right? who is wrong? both? neither?

'J' hooks are part of the older style of WCS. They can work well but because of the progression in the dance and the effect they can have on the follower have been replaced by a more refined technique. As both leaders and followers progress with knowledge and experience the techinques learnt will leave behind alot of what has been taught as a beginner. While taking private tuition over time I have been presented with the idea that it is time to stop using beginners techniques and attempt to take on board more intermediate concepts.

Caro

30th-October-2007, 10:50 AM

Guys, sorry for being thick but I am new to leading and haven't come accross this terminolgy as a follow, so can someone explain what J and A leads are please ?

Miguel

30th-October-2007, 11:35 AM

Guys, sorry for being thick but I am new to leading and haven't come accross this terminolgy as a follow, so can someone explain what J and A leads are please ?

FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 4.3 (http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/wcs_j_lead.html)

"A lead" :confused:

mikeyr

30th-October-2007, 11:40 AM

An interesting article on the use of J-leads in WCS: FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 4.3 (http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/wcs_j_lead.html)

From the article above, lets face it we are in the real-social-dance-world.

"If the problem is a lack of tone in the follower's arm on the change of connection from pull to push, then teachers shouldn't teach a J lead in the whip to get around it, unless they are teaching a course on real-social-dance-world survival skills. Or on the boy-scout rowing merit badge. :-)"

Wouldnt mind a merit badge either:cool::D

robd

30th-October-2007, 11:45 AM

While taking private tuition over time I have been presented with the idea that it is time to stop using beginners techniques and attempt to take on board more intermediate concepts.

Good point. In my limited exposure to private tuition for WCS so far I have talked a lot about compensation within the dance, both for myself dancing with experienced follows and for very new follows dancing with me. The question is asked, do you want to be able to dance well with experienced dancers or with less experienced ones? There are techniques we can use to assist with some of the common issues and challenges faced in leading beginner dancers but they may not provide a sound basis for technical progression and providing the ability to dance well with more experienced follows. I always choose to try and do it in the way I think is right for future progression rather than for immediate results. Short term frustration will hopefully give way to long term benefit.

NZ Monkey

30th-October-2007, 08:09 PM

From the article above, lets face it we are in the real-social-dance-world.
Which is what I was refering to when I said the thrust was "don't unless you absolutely have to" :wink:

Good point. In my limited exposure to private tuition for WCS so far I have talked a lot about compensation within the dance, both for myself dancing with experienced follows and for very new follows dancing with me. The question is asked, do you want to be able to dance well with experienced dancers or with less experienced ones? There are techniques we can use to assist with some of the common issues and challenges faced in leading beginner dancers but they may not provide a sound basis for technical progression and providing the ability to dance well with more experienced follows. I always choose to try and do it in the way I think is right for future progression rather than for immediate results. Short term frustration will hopefully give way to long term benefit. :yeah:

NZ Monkey

30th-October-2007, 08:15 PM

Guys, sorry for being thick but I am new to leading and haven't come accross this terminolgy as a follow, so can someone explain what J and A leads are please ?It just means the guy leads the woman forward and then hooks her hand back to turn her.

It's called a "J" lead because that's the shape the mans hand traces in the air with the lead forward and then hook. In practice the actual hook can be quite small though, or even just a movement to the side and back if the follower is moving far enough from the initial lead to pass the guy (which we hope is due to our good leading rather than her compensating for us :blush: ).

Caro

30th-October-2007, 08:27 PM

It just means the guy leads the woman forward and then hooks her hand back to turn her.

thanks NZM, it sounds rather... painful :what:. Need to try that whenever I get the opportunity to lead next... I *think* when I lead a whip my hand goes straight down the slot and back up, but will have to watch to know exactly.

NZ Monkey

30th-October-2007, 10:17 PM

thanks NZM, it sounds rather... painful :what:. Need to try that whenever I get the opportunity to lead next... I *think* when I lead a whip my hand goes straight down the slot and back up, but will have to watch to know exactly.The J hook can be quite rough with an inconsiderate lead, but doesn't need to be. I don't know if you remember my first moves or not, but that's essentially how I lead you to the turn-out portion (with very little actual hook I admit, but it's the same idea).

For what it's worth, every teacher I've had in WCS has said the same thing about the whip case though - you shouldn't need to move your hand from the slot, and it's a bad habit to get into for later. It sound's like you're doing fine. :D

spindr

30th-October-2007, 11:18 PM

Not sure if it's a "pure" J-hook or not, but I tend to lead a small shape like the enclosed piccy -- the red's the first beat, the blue's the second beat -- I guess the "loop" might be about an inch?

Seems to work for a number of slotted dances -- not just WCS :)

SpinDr

Caro

30th-October-2007, 11:33 PM

*looks at reverse J shape*

are you staying on the slot and sending your follow around you?

spindr

30th-October-2007, 11:50 PM

are you staying on the slot and sending your follow around you?
Nope, the hand moves very slightly away, as I step the other way off of the slot. The tiny loop is to give a hint for the lady to rotate on beat two.

SpinDr

Geordieed

31st-October-2007, 10:47 AM

The J hook like other techniques in lead/follow works partly as a result of your partner's frame. If you look at the variation in footwork when the J hook was used more as a standard it worked as a result of the position that the lead was. When it is taught it is the effect that it has on the follower's shoulder that helps the turn to happen. The way that the likes of Kyle and Robert Cordoba teach has the leader using a J hook plus count two is actually a step back and to the side which alters the dynamic of the connection. These days a whip is taught with count two being brought across but not with any travelling front or back and induces a twist in the upper body. If you watch the pros you will see that you don't have to step off the slot at any point during the whip which can help to maintain the connection even better.

The effects of the whip on 2 and 3 of the followers footwork has simularly evolved to increase the likelyhood of better connection and it makes a better line on 2. There were problems with the look of the dance on 2 from pigeon toes etc... and if a kodak moment was recorded it was pushing the follower into a bad bodyline. Depending on the energy and speed or want of a better description the dynamic of the whip whether it be fast or slow I think the way that the 2 and 3 are danced can be done in both styles. The older style bleeding the transition of placement alongside the timing. Whereas the much sharper turns can be danced when the energy is higher.

mikeyr

31st-October-2007, 11:36 AM

Good point. In my limited exposure to private tuition for WCS so far I have talked a lot about compensation within the dance, both for myself dancing with experienced follows and for very new follows dancing with me. The question is asked, do you want to be able to dance well with experienced dancers or with less experienced ones? There are techniques we can use to assist with some of the common issues and challenges faced in leading beginner dancers but they may not provide a sound basis for technical progression and providing the ability to dance well with more experienced follows. I always choose to try and do it in the way I think is right for future progression rather than for immediate results. Short term frustration will hopefully give way to long term benefit.

Firstly, to compensate by whomever, lead or follow is the reaction not the action

Context: The Basic WCS whip in a social dance situation. Assuming lead is near perfect:eek::whistle::devil:

You lead your move the first time, the follower, follows perfectly and fluidily making the leader appear competent. All is well and you continue to lead normally and have a good dance experience!!:waycool:

You lead your move the first time, the follower, this time doesnt follow so perfectly this time you will forced to compensate at some stage in order to maintain the integrity of the dance, timing, rythmn etc.

So given the second scenario is likely to happen to you at some stage do you stop the dance and instruct the follower in the proper technique or just smile and continue to compensate?

What did you do when the same situation arose in your MJ ? Did they appreciate it?

robd

31st-October-2007, 12:11 PM

So given the second scenario is likely to happen to you at some stage do you stop the dance and instruct the follower in the proper technique or just smile and continue to compensate?

I no longer offer unsolicited advice to social dance partners and I absolutely do not stand and lecture people having given them the 'W.T.F?' death glare :rolleyes: In the situation you suggest I will either tend to stop leading the problematic move (fancy another push break? :whistle: ) or, if the follow realises something hasn't worked as intended and asks for advice on what they need to do, will offer them advice as best I can. Compensation is inevitable - both compensating for your partner and being compensated for by your partner - as there are always people who are going to be more or less experienced than you. The point I was making is that I do not want to develop what I consider to be bad habits in my own dancing hence I will rather stop attempting to lead a move if it requires that I break too far away from what I think is the correct technique in order to do it. Working with the follows left arm is another good area for discussing this - not many leaders in MJ do a great deal of leading using the followers left arm hence many MJ-WCS transitioning followers lack similar tone in their left arm to their right arm and working free spins, wraps, etc off this arm can present a challenge. This can sometimes be solved by horrendously large and overstated double preps but again I would rather stop trying to lead those moves than wade into that territory (though I know I lapse there from time to time :sad: )

What did you do when the same situation arose in your MJ ? Did they appreciate it?

I don't really find the same situation too often in MJ but if I do, my response is the same - stop trying to lead a move that's not working. Again I offer very little unsolicited advice other than maybe to mention about a follower lifting their spare arm if they feel my hand travelling across their back (as I tend to do a lot of work with the shoulder blade and many followers unaccustomed to this find their spare arm getting trapped)

mikeyr

31st-October-2007, 01:59 PM

I no longer offer unsolicited advice to social dance partners and I absolutely do not stand and lecture people having given them the 'W.T.F?' death glare :rolleyes: In the situation you suggest I will either tend to stop leading the problematic move (fancy another push break? :whistle: )

I agree with you wholeheartedly on that. However like with jive I am feeling that I need to have one or two tools in WCS that help address those minor issues hopfully they will be exception situations. Social Defensive Dancing.

Keith J

5th-November-2007, 02:29 PM

Some fundamentals of WCS copied & pasted from runboard.com - Free message boards, free forums, remotely hosted online (http://www.runboard.com)

Frame (Lead & Follow): Tatiana’s guidance to all is always feel it through the latorial muscles, these need tension to create a frame correctly.
Her simple method is to roll the shoulders up back and down, taking both hands forward in the typical default position.

‘Default’ position (Lead & Follow): Upright & head up keeping eye contact with partner helps here), weight centred* (as though a string running through you top to bottom, * (contradictory well… no)- back on the forward part of the heel (divide the foot into 5 parts – 1 toes, 2 ball, 3 instep, 4 front of heel, 5 back of heel).

Arms: upper downwards slightly forward to create gap 75mm approx between torso and elbow. Hands forward wrists straight and not inclined. The arms should be therefore more than shoulder width apart and the hands straight out, not inclining inwards to the stomach.

Leads:
We face up and down the slot as default!
Otherwise how can a Follow know where it is?
Generally if we are off the slot its not at a jaunty angle (e.g. 126°) designed to confuse the Follow but probably 90° and facing the correct direction, up or down the slot making eye contact if possible. Visually this gives the Follow intuition as to expectations.

Leads always step back on the 1 count, to give length and direction down the slot.
This is the case, particularly in basics, like Whips where Leads intent is to step off the slot, the direction lead must be and straight.

The initial step back is from the mass of the body, not a huge wrench on the arm, followed by a moments later step back.
The movement for the Lead is 'whole', like the body is locked up with the arm in place.
Leads - this therefore does not have to be big. You risk muscle & joint injury and offence to the Follows if poor technique is employed.

For the more advanced there is a small release of an advanced Follow on the ‘&’ between the 8 and 1. This allows some momentum backwards to release the Follows change of weight onto her left foot.

The frame allows WCS to work.
If the Lead has noodle arms, do not expect much from the Follow!

Grip:
Try too make a few things clearer, there is novice hand holds and more advanced techniques for communicating the dance. It changes as the dance advances but look early for the bad habits developing.
Novice; Lead is offering left hand little finger to the floor the thumb to the sky with the forefinger pointing (sometimes described as the pistol grip). Leads offer as much as possible flesh & bones of the 2 middle fingers. Offer the right exactly as the left for two hands.
The Follow in here offers as much RH hooked over the top of the 2 digits as possible.
Leads try not to twist the hand as it influences the lead and can start to pull muscles. Ask what’s comfortable to a few follows. Visually you are looking for straight wrists.
Leads try to minimise the air gap between the hook over and the fleshy bit of the palms near the thumb but do not make this like a parking clamp.

Please please please do not wrap the thumb over ever.

Rolling through the feet:

As above consider the foot divided into 5 sections
1 toes, 2 ball of foot, 3 instep (middle arched area) , 4 front of heel, 5 back of heel).

Fundamentals would be walking forward.
Place heel 5, roll through to 4, 3, 2, 1 in sequence.
Note very soft soled dance shoes (suede sole manufacture are favoured) are required really to achieve this, dance sneakers, leather soles, make this very difficult. Equally the body of the shoe needs to be very pliable / flexible to allow the foot to move. These shoes take some getting used to.
Also whilst on shoes, the Cuban 1.5” (38mm) high seem to be optimum and favourite for posture in WCS, for both Lead & Follow. Ladies in high heels ...good luck to you!!

Going backwards (Follows is the reverse 1,2,3,4,5 in running order)
The step forward tends to make the foot slightly out turned by a few degrees as it increases core stability.
The normal is not to roll onto the toes the bulk of the body weight remaining on the balls of the feet.
The distribution on the (2) ball of the foot is probably like 40% with the remainder in the front (4) of the heel at 60%. Toes receive a negligible amount of mass in here.
Ok this is not finite, we are all built differently this is indicative and links to the exercises with weight changes and sensitising.
If the frame and core stability is poor rocking forward and backward when anchoring or typically doing a sugar push, sees the torso collapse, and the weight being pushed to far forward or backward. So speed is a factor here (music determined), not to charge out of the one like a high velocity train but also not so sloth like, taking a calendar month to go down the slot. (Also stay on the tracks Follows no swinging out).
The power for the triple step is generated through the knee to ankle and allows the torso to keep stable & still. This also contributes to the look of WCS. It also helps as when the body moves it is intentional, with purpose and is conveying lead and communicating meaning.
Moving forward on the ‘& 1 count’: Move with the body. The body breaks the balance. Try not to step forward with the foot and put the toes down first (as though testing bathwater temperature… it looks weird and does not work).
Bear in mind it’s like walking normally.
Maintain the frame, keeping the tension and torso upright until sufficient confidence in the follow, it sensitises sufficiently where the odd ‘break’ is not a problem.
A source of frustration for Follows, is Leads over compensating for them not reacting to a preparation. A common cause is the frame breaks. This can be seen with both Lead and Follow, but the error compounds.
This means the Leads over compensate. We then see this big preps (eeeek), left, right, sweeping the follow out 20-30 degrees off centre line down the slot, all totally unnecessary.
Leads keep the hand to the left or right off the slot, be mindful not to centre in putting the hand in the middle of the Follows stomach unless you really want it there.

MartinHarper

5th-November-2007, 06:14 PM

The question is asked, do you want to be able to dance well with experienced dancers or with less experienced ones?

Yes!
(I take the point, though)

Lory

5th-November-2007, 08:14 PM

I absolutely do not stand and lecture people having given them the 'W.T.F?' death glare :rolleyes:

I know that look :sick:

One lead has perfected it, to a point where he manages to reduce anyone's confidence to zero with just one glare! :cool: Nice! :rolleyes:

robd

6th-February-2008, 01:38 PM

Geordieed

7th-February-2008, 12:14 PM

Just a little something that occured to me from time to time dancing with people at Southport was the issue of followers 'playing' at the end of the slot. Many experienced jive follows when learning WCS will get to the end of the slot and then wiggle down or shimmy or similarly add their own styling as they are accustomed to doing when dancing MJ. IMO there's not necessarily a single right way to style your dancing in WCS so my aesthetic concerns as to the suitability of some of the stuff I see are for me to get over but there is a specific practical issue here which is that the signal that a follow wishes for playtime in jive is often a firming of the connection but in WCS if a follow's connection firms up at the end of the slot my natural assumption is that they have anchored and are ready to be led (happy, DJ?) again. Thus if you feel that you recognise this issue in your dancing and you feel that a leader is rushing you forward before you've finished your playtime then perhaps try to lighten your connection to the leader until such time as you are ready to go again.

Oh, and remember to smile :grin:

The structure of WCS does help as a guide when we start to personalise WCS for ourselves. I know you are familiar with WCS Rob but speaking generally playtime for the woman does come with some do's and don'ts. Obviously the follower can't extend the timing of the pattern unless allowed to. Both leader and follower should be creating stretch at the end of the slot to prepare for the next pattern, which sometimes is forgotten when people start putting in styling. This is determined if the extended pattern is before or after the post is set. What is gained on one hand is lost unfortunately on another. Styling isn't driven by but can be faciliated by footwork variations and it helps to see the larger scope of WCS styles from past and present Pros/champions. WCS has been hugely influenced by Shag for instance amoungst many other dances.

Commenting directly on what you were saying about the connection I would have to understand more what you mean about the connection firming up. It is not easy to prevent connection being driven by arm strength and muscle tension instead of the arms being an extension of the body connection.

What have been your experiences of the connection in action when the follower is playing.

robd

7th-February-2008, 01:02 PM

I know you are familiar with WCS Rob but speaking generally playtime for the woman does come with some do's and don'ts.

I agree. I would say I was familiar but wouldn't say I was knowledgeable. I only speak from my own experiences in classes, occasional private tuition and social dancing and there are big, big gaps between that understanding and a good knowledge of WCS that become apparent when you dance with those people that do have that good understanding - people who've danced WCS frequently in the States for example. So I don't want to set myself up as some kind of authority on the subject as I am clearly not that but I am more familiar with it that the people I had in mind when writing my initial post. I don't think the kind of styling I am discussing is appropriate for WCS but I am not trying to lecture anybody, just to say what I find preferable.

Obviously the follower can't extend the timing of the pattern unless allowed to.

Good point. In the same way that I think some of this get to slot end and shimmy down styling is a bit of a comfort blanket for transitioning followers I think my experience as a permissive leader in MJ means I am at fault for not leading them out of this more authoritatively.

Both leader and follower should be creating stretch at the end of the slot to prepare for the next pattern, which sometimes is forgotten when people start putting in styling.

Agree - the followers whom I have in mind are not really at this stage giving a lot in the way of stretch nor, I suspect, am I as the leader. Maybe it's part of the whole 'difficult being a beginner again' issue for some people transitioning between the two dances. If followers are used to hitting breaks and adding their own styling in MJ they perhaps get frustrated in WCS so throw in what they know from MJ without necessarily considering how appropriate it is. It would be nice if more value was placed on good, clean basics and simple, well connected following but then maybe that makes life too boring for the follower?

Commenting directly on what you were saying about the connection I would have to understand more what you mean about the connection firming up. It is not easy to prevent connection being driven by arm strength and muscle tension instead of the arms being an extension of the body connection.

It's difficult to put into words but it's just a kind of a discernible feeling that the follower wishes to halt there and maybe in a WCS context I am mistaking this for the beginnings of stretch?