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Gus
19th-May-2006, 09:14 PM
Curious. Back in the days when I did my Ceroc teacher training (i.e. when Nelson was still in shorts), we were indoctrinated with the ethos that teachers dance with the paying public, like a Taxi Dancer Plus. As a Franchisee, I've been even more feverent in this belief. However, recent observations have suggested that this is not a universal rule.

At Greenwich/Bow I'm happy to report that Laural & Hardy (aka Dan and Russel) do dance with their followers ..... though many of the punters offer good money if they don't dance with them :sick: .... but at least they try. But are these saviours of dance ethics in a minority.

I've noted all too many teachers dancing with punters only in the hope of its leading to closer inspectioon of their underwear. Others only dance with their 'favoured few'. Is this a national trend or does the spirit of the teachers passing on their experise still live on?

Frankie_4711
20th-May-2006, 09:33 AM
I go to 4 venues on a (fairly) regular basis - 2 for over a year, the other 2 for only a few weeks.

Venues 1 & 2 - teachers will dance with anyone, and I might be wrong on this but, the way I see it is, only if they're asked (which, let's face it, Mr or Mrs Joe Public mostly won't in case they can't cope, look silly, not confident enough, "they're so good they won't want to dance with me" etc). They don't actively hunt down people to dance with. Otherwise, if left to their own devices it seems that they have a chosen few that they will ask to dance. One does do more dancing than the other in my view.

Venue 3 - teacher dancing??? Can't say that I've noticed that! Er, maybe just the once ... ?

Venue 4 - just changed teacher last week - previous teacher I don't think even stayed after the Intermediate class - couldn't track him down any of the times I was going to ask him to dance! New teacher - hard to say as he's only done one week, but I did see him dancing with a Beginner (I'm assuming he did the asking as he was leading her onto the floor) and I did dance with him (at my request).

Minnie M
20th-May-2006, 09:41 AM
I think it is a MUST that teachers dance with their students - Graham LeCerk always did when I was learning, it not only gave me confidence it also ironed out any (or most) bad habits before they become set.

Unfortunately, IMO current day Taxi Dancers are mostly not experienced enough, they will correct and help on the current class :worthy: but to know why/and what the newby is doing wrong requires much more experience.

El Salsero Gringo
20th-May-2006, 10:18 AM
I've noted all too many teachers dancing with punters only in the hope of its leading to closer inspectioon of their underwear. Despicable. I recommend finding a venue where neither the teacher nor the punters wear any underwear.

CJ
20th-May-2006, 10:51 AM
Despicable. I recommend finding a venue where neither the teacher nor the punters wear any underwear.

Ahem.... DJs?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?:whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

In Scotland we are fairly well blessed with teachers who dance with beginners, intermediates, newcomers and even strangers!! And they don't come much stranger than the Gla crowd!!!:rofl:

Ahem.. moving on.

Most of our teachers teach for the love of dance and what it can bring.. That probably influenced my approach to dancing with everyone, too. (although, if I'm DJing: they need to ask me.:o )

El Salsero Gringo
20th-May-2006, 11:09 AM
Ahem.... DJs?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?:whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: Sorry, my omission - and the DJ's neither. (Although there is a health and safety case there, what with all those spinning CDs)

Alice
20th-May-2006, 01:49 PM
Amir does :whistle: :worthy:

Generally though, in my experience the teachers only dance with the punters if
a) the punter asks them first and
b) the punter is lucky enough to manage to ask said teacher during one of the limited windows of opportunity when they're not doing something else or dancing with the advanced people.

Since this generally involves watching the teacher like a hawk for the entire night and pouncing on them the second they walk back through the door/off the dance floor, I generally give up.

But I think it would be great if they did make an effort to dance with the punters.... :yeah: :yeah: It makes them seem less scary, irons out any bad habits, and also helps them to get a feel for where the class is at:)

Minnie M
20th-May-2006, 01:54 PM
Amir does........
but only when asked :rolleyes:

I thought this thread was about the teachers getting down on the floor and and actually asking students to dance, also giving constructive critisism as necessary - anyone can ask a teacher to dance and NO decent teacher should then refuse :really:

Alice
20th-May-2006, 02:02 PM
but only when asked :rolleyes:

I thought this thread was about the teachers getting down on the floor and and actually asking students to dance, also giving constructive critisism as necessary - anyone can ask a teacher to dance and NO decent teacher should then refuse :really:

Yeah and that was my point- they don't.

Amir does seem to ask a few though... though tis a much smaller room and easier to spot people:)

MartinHarper
20th-May-2006, 02:41 PM
I've noted all too many teachers dancing with punters only in the hope of its leading to closer inspectioon of their underwear.

So, just to clarify this - you're saying that if a teacher asks me for a dance, then she totally fancies me? Can I get that in writing?

Piglet
20th-May-2006, 02:45 PM
In Aberdeen our two female teachers are always dancing with the "punters" - I'm pretty sure its the same all over Scotland from what I have seen at the venues I've attended :D

Rhythm King
20th-May-2006, 02:45 PM
Simon Borland makes the effort to work the room at the ISH and Lee Rays puts on a good effort too. I ca't imagine Drathzel not dancing with her punters. Sometimes it's the customer who's nervous of dancing with the teacher though - I know I was.

Gus
20th-May-2006, 02:53 PM
So, just to clarify this - you're saying that if a teacher asks me for a dance, then she totally fancies me? Can I get that in writing?Mmmmmmm ... most of the teachers up here are male ... so it may be the case that they do fancy you ... though you may be dispointed.

My outstanding memory of teachers dancing with women was a lass at Nottingham who took me under her wing and tried to train me to dance. She told me that on her first night at Nottingham she hated it, and vowed never to come again, until the teacher (a certain Messr Phil Roberts) grabed her for a dance and showed her what it could be like. Her rapid progress is all due to his intervention. :worthy:

Freya
21st-May-2006, 01:25 PM
As Piglet said We m ust be a friendly bunch coz our teachers are always dancing with the Locals! Lisa especially is always running round trying to grab people for a dance! Especially the newer ones!

Minnie M
21st-May-2006, 01:29 PM
................
just lurve the avatar :clap: wish someone was clever enough to make a Minnie-Marilyn :flower:

Ickle Chick'n
21st-May-2006, 02:00 PM
Nelson dances with punters down this way, and asks them as well as encouraging people to ask him. I found it very scarey when he first asked me but it was also encouraging so to such people who do make the effort:respect: (I still find him scarey now thogh, I have to think too much!)

Newquay Jive Chris and Murphy work the floor as do Pam and Jill who do the teaching and they are constantly encouraging beginners and trying to make the experience fun to get people back. It's a lovely atmosphere there.

It must be hard for teachers to get around and ask beginners, not necessarily that they can't be bothered, as some of the more advanced dancers who are a bit more confident will grab them as they are looking for a more advanced level dance so how can you honestly teel which teachers just dance with higher level dancers and which are just accepting a dance having been asked...? (That made sense in my head!)

Other venues I've been to it's nice to see the teacher dancing but I am always nervous about asking them so I know I miss out but there'ss only so many people they can get around in an evening.

DavidB
21st-May-2006, 02:48 PM
I have no doubt that when a teacher "works the floor" after a class, it can make a big difference to the atmosphere in the club, and ultimately it's profitability.

However teachers are there to do a job, which is to teach the classes. To expect a teacher to work for an extra 2 hours afterwards for nothing is wrong. How many of you would feel happy about working more than twice as long for the same pay?

They should be offered some sort of profit-sharing based on the success of that night. (One exception would be newly qualified teachers, where the franchise owner has paid for their training. "Working the floor" should be included in whatever contract is entered into)

Gus
21st-May-2006, 03:07 PM
However teachers are there to do a job, which is to teach the classes. To expect a teacher to work for an extra 2 hours afterwards for nothing is wrong. How many of you would feel happy about working more than twice as long for the same pay?Sorry David, but for the CTA dancing with punters is explicilty part of the job ... well it was when I qualified. Its part of the Blitz expectation, but the amount of NWest teachers dancing with dancers is absolutely minimal:angry:

DavidB
21st-May-2006, 05:27 PM
Sorry David, but for the CTA dancing with punters is explicilty part of the job ... . Its part of the Blitz expectation, spoken like a project manager

Minnie M
21st-May-2006, 05:41 PM
....However teachers are there to do a job, which is to teach the classes. To expect a teacher to work for an extra 2 hours afterwards for nothing is wrong. How many of you would feel happy about working more than twice as long for the same pay?..........
:yeah: Good point :flower:
When the teacher IS the franchise holder/organiser of the venue it is in their interest to dance with their students, however, if (and it is often the case in non-Ceroc venues) it is a guest teacher, the situation is very different :really:

LilyB
21st-May-2006, 08:42 PM
Sorry David, but for the CTA dancing with punters is explicilty part of the job ... well it was when I qualified. Its part of the Blitz expectation, but the amount of NWest teachers dancing with dancers is absolutely minimal:angry:

If it is explicitly part of the job, as you say, then it is a contractual obligation which the teacher has to fulfil (which is exactly the point David was making).

I wonder, however, whether the 'obligation to dance with the punters' extends to those punters who are not beginners? Although I appreciate that it is vitally important to the success of a venue to encourage beginners by dancing with them, is it not also in the venue's interest to maintain the loyalty of the more experienced dancers by making sure the teachers dance with them as well? Very often, the teacher is the best dancer at the venue and hence many of the better dancers at the venue would greatly appreciate a dance with him/her. If his/her time is spent dancing only with the beginners, there is very little incentive for the better dancers to regularly patronise that venue. These better dancers will then drift away to those venues where they know they are likely to find other better dancers to dance with.

I know of quite a few venues which are successful in drawing in the numbers but not the quality of dancers, because of their apparent policy of encouraging only beginners. I have personally experienced some venues where the teachers will only ask the beginners (or their crew) to dance, and after several visits of not getting a single dance from the teacher, I find little incentive to return. I am aware that I am not the only person (usually female) who feels this way. I guess it all depends on which 'punters' the venues think are worth keeping or attracting.

Alice
21st-May-2006, 09:01 PM
If it is explicitly part of the job, as you say, then it is a contractual obligation which the teacher has to fulfil (which is exactly the point David was making).

I wonder, however, whether the 'obligation to dance with the punters' extends to those punters who are not beginners? Although I appreciate that it is vitally important to the success of a venue to encourage beginners by dancing with them, is it not also in the venue's interest to maintain the loyalty of the more experienced dancers by making sure the teachers dance with them as well? Very often, the teacher is the best dancer at the venue and hence many of the better dancers at the venue would greatly appreciate a dance with him/her. If his/her time is spent dancing only with the beginners, there is very little incentive for the better dancers to regularly patronise that venue. These better dancers will then drift away to those venues where they know they are likely to find other better dancers to dance with.

I know of quite a few venues which are successful in drawing in the numbers but not the quality of dancers, because of their apparent policy of encouraging only beginners. I have personally experienced some venues where the teachers will only ask the beginners (or their crew) to dance, and after several visits of not getting a single dance from the teacher, I find little incentive to return. I am aware that I am not the only person (usually female) who feels this way. I guess it all depends on which 'punters' the venues think are worth keeping or attracting.
Good point. HOwever, I don't think anyone is necessarily putting forward the idea that the teachers dance exclusively with the beginner punters- if they danced with punters from a mixture of levels including at least a few beginners each night it would be a good start...

drathzel
21st-May-2006, 09:20 PM
As RK mentioned, i dance with everyone, especially when i am teaching, i make sure i chase people if i havent had a dance and i leave my taxis and demos to the last few tracks, and normally only if i have danced with most, if not all, of my other punters. We have small classes here so it is easier. During the first break i target beginners, after the intermed class i target intermeds as it normally helps them with the routine taught that night, then i dance with everyone and anyone.

Oh and i do all the asking as nobody likes to ask the teacher!:sad:

foxylady
21st-May-2006, 10:13 PM
If it is explicitly part of the job, as you say, then it is a contractual obligation which the teacher has to fulfil (which is exactly the point David was making).

/snip/

I know of quite a few venues which are successful in drawing in the numbers but not the quality of dancers, because of their apparent policy of encouraging only beginners. I have personally experienced some venues where the teachers will only ask the beginners (or their crew) to dance, and after several visits of not getting a single dance from the teacher, I find little incentive to return. I am aware that I am not the only person (usually female) who feels this way. I guess it all depends on which 'punters' the venues think are worth keeping or attracting.

Lily, I think it so depends on the numbers.... For a teacher to get around and make everyone happy he/she would need to be superhuman in some cases. In the newer venues with only a few people, its easy, and quite soon you build up a fololowing because p[eople like the fact that the teacher has sought them out and they come. But then it becomes a victim of its own success and there are too many people for the teacher to get around to...

Also the teacher is either male or female, which certainly in the case of a male teacher (apart from in scotalnd) then that excludes half of the punters before the teacher has even started. Simon Borland (allegedly - although it might be simply that he likes having lots of women) addresses this by having three or more demo's who whilst taking turns at demo-ing, come every week and dance with the men .... Quite simply Simon expects it of us !

I know ESG is frustrated at Muswell Hill that he can't get around and dance with everyone, now that the number are increasing.... double edged sword stuff !!

Gadget
21st-May-2006, 10:59 PM
If a teaches is simply someone who teaches because they are employed to teach, then fine; no problem in them teaching and buggering off. However; most teachers I know were dancers before they were teachers and love to dance - After they have taught, why not stay arround and dance?

For someone like Franck, the teaching is just a way to help people have fun and enjoy themselves - the only thing that changes from when he is on stage teaching to when he is dancing with someone is that he decides what would make the person infront of him happiest or help them get more out of their dancing. :worthy: Perhaps that's one of the main reasons all the teachers up here dance with everyone?

under par
22nd-May-2006, 08:35 AM
I think it is a MUST that teachers dance with their students - Graham LeCerk always did when I was learning, it not only gave me confidence it also ironed out any (or most) bad habits before they become set.

.

Though bringing history up to date Graham's demise eventually was his lack of customer satisfaction which was led by Grahams reluctance to dance with punters.:sad:

Not that I don't rate Graham as on of the best teachers I've known.

Always great inventive moves:yeah: :respect:

jivecat
22nd-May-2006, 08:43 AM
Oh and i do all the asking as nobody likes to ask the teacher!:sad:

The first couple of years I danced, I was never once asked by the teacher. Eventually I plucked up courage and asked - and wished I hadn't! It would have made a huge difference to my confidence if the teacher had appeared more supportive of keen beginners - he used to dance with a few favoured (advanced) dancers, then disappear. Thankfully, subsequent teachers have been far more supportive but I think they favour beginners rather than intermediate dancers.

As a complete beginner, dancing with very good dancers was certainly wasted on me as I found them intimidating, I was easily confused by their
different dance styles and didn't follow well enough to appreciate their creativity. It was probably most helpful to me to dance with intermediate leaders with a clear lead, who could dance on the beat and made me feel relaxed.

However, now I really appreciate dancing with leaders who make me think, and challenge me beyond what I already know how to do, and, hopefully, give me some feedback. A dance with the teacher might be one of the few chances in some evenings I get to do this, so I value it just as much as when I started dancing.

Sorry guys, you'll just have to start wearing your underpants on the outside of your trousers.

Piglet
22nd-May-2006, 08:50 AM
Good point. HOwever, I don't think anyone is necessarily putting forward the idea that the teachers dance exclusively with the beginner punters- if they danced with punters from a mixture of levels including at least a few beginners each night it would be a good start...
Yep - again, the Aberdeen teachers do this. They are happy to dance with all of the group - beginners, intermediates and those beyond intermediate level - they also dance with both guys and girls :D

Ghost
22nd-May-2006, 12:13 PM
As a complete beginner, dancing with very good dancers was certainly wasted on me as I found them intimidating, I was easily confused by their
different dance styles and didn't follow well enough to appreciate their creativity. It was probably most helpful to me to dance with intermediate leaders with a clear lead, who could dance on the beat and made me feel relaxed.
Ok this is the bit I don't get. There's a quote that surfaces every now and then that really good dancers can dance with anyone and make them look good. Surely teachers are in an ideal position to dance at a level that matches the student and then help to gently raise them up. Frankly Drathzel made me look far better than I am when we danced :worthy:


Sorry guys, you'll just have to start wearing your underpants on the outside of your trousers.
You haven't met The Wacko yet then :whistle:

Be Well,
Christopher

drathzel
25th-May-2006, 10:47 PM
Ok this is the bit I don't get. There's a quote that surfaces every now and then that really good dancers can dance with anyone and make them look good. Surely teachers are in an ideal position to dance at a level that matches the student and then help to gently raise them up. Frankly Drathzel made me look far better than I am when we danced :worthy:


Thanks :blush:

I dont know if thats the case, a lot of people feel they dance worse with teachers, even if they "look" better, and therefore dont like/wont dance with/ask them to dance!

Even i get nervous dancing with teachers, and i am one!:blush:

Ghost
26th-May-2006, 01:11 AM
Thanks :blush:
:flower:

I dont know if thats the case, a lot of people feel they dance worse with teachers, even if they "look" better, and therefore dont like/wont dance with/ask them to dance!

Even i get nervous dancing with teachers, and i am one!:blush:
Ah but I have a cunning plan....

From the First impressions thread

Drathzel – I remember thinking “Remember - she’s just a dancer, she’s just a dancer – oh WOW!”

For obvious reasons picturing you in your underwear was not going to be very helpful - I'd just kinda stand there going :awe: .

:wink:
Christopher

drathzel
26th-May-2006, 01:12 AM
:flower:

Ah but I have a cunning plan....

From the First impressions thread


For obvious reasons picturing you in your underwear was not going to be very helpful - I'd just kinda stand there going :awe: .

:wink:
Christopher

where did you get that quote from. why havent i seen it? :blush:

Ghost
26th-May-2006, 01:20 AM
where did you get that quote from. why havent i seen it? :blush:
Main thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8528)

My post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=231589&postcount=3)

I'm not the only one saying nice things about you :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
:flower:
Christopher

ElaineB
26th-May-2006, 07:42 AM
In Bristol, we have the majority of teachers who will dance with anyone and one who will only dance with his favourites.

I teach now on an intermittant basis and I will dance with the 'punters' afterwards. Some of them I know, some of them I don't. Some of them try to run away, but I catch them :D

At one venue, I am paid hardly anything at all and another one, quite a lot. I don't do it for the money though (although, trust me, I would like to!), I would just like to pass on the information that has been passed onto me.

As for teachers in London, in my limited experience, I have encountered the ones who will only dance with their favourites and even when asked, will find an excuse not to dance, then on the next track get up with a favourite.

I found it very disheartening when I first started dancing and really feel for those that have reported back that this has happened to them also.

Elaine

El Salsero Gringo
8th-June-2006, 02:56 PM
As for teachers in London, in my limited experience, I have encountered the ones who will only dance with their favourites and even when asked, will find an excuse not to dance, then on the next track get up with a favourite. How limited is your 'limited' experience? I could slag off all Bristol teachers by saying they have green skin and webbed feet (in my limited experience) but I've never actually been to Bristol, so it wouldn't mean much.

Whitebeard
9th-June-2006, 01:09 AM
How limited is your 'limited' experience? I could slag off all Bristol teachers by saying they have green skin and webbed feet (in my limited experience) but I've never actually been to Bristol, so it wouldn't mean much.

Her experience of London teachers might be be limited; but her experience of dance, I would say, has very limited boundaries. She is a very challenging lady and even the mighty ESG might meet his match. She has every excuse to be a lady hotshot, and yet, nevertheless, on the strength of an introduction, has made a point of dancing with this lowly forumite.

ElaineB
9th-June-2006, 07:35 AM
How limited is your 'limited' experience? I could slag off all Bristol teachers by saying they have green skin and webbed feet (in my limited experience) but I've never actually been to Bristol, so it wouldn't mean much.

I say 'limited' as I wouldn't want to 'name and shame' either the venues or the teachers. Have you a better way of getting this point across?

I taught at the venerable 'Kingswood' in Bristol on Wednesday night and Steve most definitely doesn't have green skin, or webbed feet! :D

Elaine

Lou
9th-June-2006, 07:39 AM
I taught at the venerable 'Kingswood' in Bristol on Wednesday night and Steve most definitely doesn't have green skin, or webbed feet! :D

Yeah, but admit it, Elaine - Steve IS the exception! :D

(He's more turquoise. And it's the ones south of the river who have webbed fingers.... :wink: )

Lou
9th-June-2006, 07:40 AM
Actually, and to get back on topic, I've been made most welcome up here by Franck. He definitely dances with his punters. :respect:

El Salsero Gringo
9th-June-2006, 09:24 AM
.. yet, nevertheless, on the strength of an introduction, has made a point of dancing with this lowly forumite.Leaving aside your false humility for a second, I'm pleased to hear it, although of course I'd expect nothing less.
I say 'limited' as I wouldn't want to 'name and shame' either the venues or the teachers. Have you a better way of getting this point across?Actually I do. 'Name and shame' as you put it: put up - or shut up. Otherwise you unfairly tar every teacher in London with the same brush.
I taught at the venerable 'Kingswood' in Bristol on Wednesday night and Steve most definitely doesn't have green skin, or webbed feet! :DLet's see: teachers in and around London that I know dance with all their students (still limited experience of dance in London, but maybe less limited than yours) are: George, BillCo, Bex, Amy, Lee, Howard, Carol, Jo, Simon Borland, Mike, Paul Alloway at Uxbridge, Ruth, Clare and Tim. Oh, and Dan and Russell at Ceroc Greenwich. Who did you have in mind to criticize while also insulting all these people?

frodo
9th-June-2006, 01:04 PM
...'Name and shame' as you put it: put up - or shut up. Otherwise you unfairly tar every teacher in London with the same brush.

Let's see: teachers in and around London that I know dance with all their students (still limited experience of dance in London, but maybe less limited than yours) are: George, BillCo, Bex, Amy, Lee, Howard, Carol, Jo, Simon Borland, Mike, Paul Alloway at Uxbridge, Ruth, Clare and Tim. Oh, and Dan and Russell at Ceroc Greenwich. Who did you have in mind to criticize while also insulting all these people?ElaineB has posted her experience and you've posted yours. Both contain useful and interesting information. No one has represented it as other than their experience. Everyone is free to post - or create a poll specific to London.

It would be unfortunate if people didn't post clearly qualified negative information, in this sort of case, because they thought that if they did they had to name and shame.

David Bailey
9th-June-2006, 01:20 PM
ElaineB has posted her experience and you've posted yours. Both contain useful and interesting information. No one has represented it as other than their experience. Everyone is free to post - or create a poll specific to London.
Yes - but London's a big place; it's got several different franchises and several dozen different venues going.

From a numbers point of view, saying "London teachers do XXX" is like saying "every teacher outside SE England does XXX" - which I think most people would dispute.

In terms of posting negative information - we have review threads such as "Feeback on Club nights" (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6574), which we can use for that, they've got positive and negative comments, and no-one's really complained about that. I think specific comments are more useful than general comments; otherwise, how can people learn / change things?

ElaineB
9th-June-2006, 01:31 PM
Leaving aside your false humility for a second, I'm pleased to hear it, although of course I'd expect nothing less.Actually I do. 'Name and shame' as you put it: put up - or shut up. Otherwise you unfairly tar every teacher in London with the same brush.Let's see: teachers in and around London that I know dance with all their students (still limited experience of dance in London, but maybe less limited than yours) are: George, BillCo, Bex, Amy, Lee, Howard, Carol, Jo, Simon Borland, Mike, Paul Alloway at Uxbridge, Ruth, Clare and Tim. Oh, and Dan and Russell at Ceroc Greenwich. Who did you have in mind to criticize while also insulting all these people?

Good grief, did you get out of the wrong side of the stable or something this morning?

If I have insulted any teachers on here, then please accept my apoligies. Those who dance with the punters know who they are, equally, so do those who don't!

I have already stated that I have limited experience of teachers in London! I have also said 'some' - I have not said 'all'! I am sorry ESG, but I am not prepared to name and shame.

Elaine

PS It is a shame that your sensabilities regarding 'insults' don't extend to your own behaviour - Whitebeard was was trying to pay me a compliment!

El Salsero Gringo
9th-June-2006, 02:25 PM
Good grief, did you get out of the wrong side of the stable or something this morning?No. We just have a difference of opinion over what's an effective presentation of a point. Some people think that negative comments directed at large groups of people - because the poster is too lazy, shy or embarassed to be specific about their target when they know exactly who they're talking about - are 'good form'. On the other hand I think they're both uninformative and a slur on everyone else who gets caught in the vaguery of the description. *You* know who you mean; *we* have to guess. You're too smart not to know that you're casting suspicion on many when you don't need to.
If I have insulted any teachers on here, then please accept my apoligies. Those who dance with the punters know who they are, equally, so do those who don't! That does not, as far as I can see, make the whole thing OK.
I have already stated that I have limited experience of teachers in London! ... I am sorry ESG, but I am not prepared to name and shame.Two good reasons to have held your tongue.
PS It is a shame that your sensabilities regarding 'insults' don't extend to your own behaviour - Whitebeard was was trying to pay me a compliment!If I've insulted Whitebeard (himself, as distinct from his words) then he will let me know, and we will take it from there. However at least he's aware of whom I speak, he's around to read what I wrote and he has the opportunity to reply to it in this, the same forum. That's an opportunity you continue to refuse to extended to your subjects.

David Bailey
9th-June-2006, 10:16 PM
Ahem.

So, anyway, back on topic, I think that some teachers are clearly better at the "work the room" part of it than others. Simon Borland and Mike Ellard, for example, are naturally superb at this aspect of the role.

What most professionals - especially the teachers - may sometimes forget is how much in awe they are regarded by the average punter. There's an air of glamour that goes with being a teacher, and every little move they make (literally) is imbued with significance.

So tiny actions, which from anyone else would be ignored, are magnified to be of Extreme Importance. And - and this is the main point - this "magnification" (or cult of celebrity) doesn't stop at the end of the class. So even if it's the teacher's free time, and sometimes even if the teacher is at a different venue, they're under the spotlight to a degree.

So what they do - for example, choosing who they want to dance with, even on their nights off - is seen as favouritism, elitist or whatever. Whereas with a non-teacher this is just normal behaviour.

Some teachers are aware of their continuous celeb status - hell, some (esp. male) teachers depend on it. But some aren't, or don't handle it well - they try to be "normal" outside their job, or try to split social dancing and work dancing.

Whitebeard
9th-June-2006, 10:46 PM
Leaving aside your false humility ......

I really believe it is better to recognise one's limitations.

frodo
10th-June-2006, 12:35 AM
Yes - but London's a big place; it's got several different franchises and several dozen different venues going.

From a numbers point of view, saying "London teachers do XXX" is like saying "every teacher outside SE England does XXX" - which I think most people would disputeI think that is all likely to be true (depending on the definition of London), but it is also true that leaves are usually green :confused: :)


In terms of posting negative information - we have review threads such as"Feeback on Club nights" (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6574), which we can use for that, they've got positive and negative comments, and no-one's really complained about that. I think specific comments are more useful than general comments; otherwise, how can people learn / change things?
I think you're right that specific comments are more useful, but when the choice is between general comments and no comments at all, I'd normally prefer the general.

In general I'm not sure you have much of a thread here without negative information.



More directly on topic, I'd prefer the teachers should give priority to teaching well as opposed to dancing with punters. While I'll long remember and appreciate those teachers who generally dance and those who have danced with me, it is a minor consideration, whereas the quality of the teaching is a major one.

pjay
10th-June-2006, 04:15 AM
Ahem.

So, anyway, back on topic, I think that some teachers are clearly better at the "work the room" part of it than others. Simon Borland and Mike Ellard, for example, are naturally superb at this aspect of the role.

What most professionals - especially the teachers - may sometimes forget is how much in awe they are regarded by the average punter. There's an air of glamour that goes with being a teacher, and every little move they make (literally) is imbued with significance.

So tiny actions, which from anyone else would be ignored, are magnified to be of Extreme Importance. And - and this is the main point - this "magnification" (or cult of celebrity) doesn't stop at the end of the class. So even if it's the teacher's free time, and sometimes even if the teacher is at a different venue, they're under the spotlight to a degree.

So what they do - for example, choosing who they want to dance with, even on their nights off - is seen as favouritism, elitist or whatever. Whereas with a non-teacher this is just normal behaviour.

Some teachers are aware of their continuous celeb status - hell, some (esp. male) teachers depend on it. But some aren't, or don't handle it well - they try to be "normal" outside their job, or try to split social dancing and work dancing.


I agree with you whole-heartedly on this one, teachers live in a fishbowl in the world of MJ - people know who they are, and when they're around they get watched. People also seem to expect them to be able to say off the top of their heads "you could do this to improve" where that teacher may simply be enjoying a social dance - and really not looking for ways to help the other person improve their dancing.

At the end of the day teachers are people too, choosing to want to dance with someone that they particularly like dancing with (for whatever reason) isn't necessarily elitest - yes it may be, but isn't that making a judgement call on the motives behind their actions, and who am I to say what is inside a persons head?

I've even had students turn me down for a dance (or at least try to), because they're too scared to dance with a teacher!

That's why I love going to venues every now and then where I'm not known.. unfortunately with my recent move from Melb to NZ there are some people who know me, and that I was teaching over there, and have "spread the word"... Fortunately not now, and having never taught here I don't think (or at least I hope) that no-one thinks I'm being elitest simply because I tend to ask people to dance who I know I'm going to enjoy the dance with - there's only so many tracks played in one night!