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Gojive
17th-May-2006, 09:19 AM
The core set of beginner's moves has changed very little since I started dancing, some 7 or 8 years ago. I'm wondering if it's time the set was examined, and perhaps changed around a bit.

My reasoning for this, is that it became apparent to me that certain moves have become fundamental to my dance (eg First Move, Catapault), and others have been consigned to my memory trash bin (eg Half-Windmill). I noticed too, how this seems to be fairly common place, across most of the intermediate/advanced dancers that I've watched.

So, what moves would you keep, what moves would you dump, and are there any others you'd put in instead, if you rewrote the beginner's set?

Some examples:

First Move - Keep.

So many moves based on it in the future.

Arm Jive - Keep.

Good way to get beginner's into the beat.

Half-Windmill - Dump.
A potentially clumsy move, and possibly dangerous for some beginners.

ducasi
17th-May-2006, 09:29 AM
The half-windwill hasn't been a beginner's move for over a year now. :)

Can't think what I'd add or remove. I think I've said somewhere before on the forum that making the first move seducer a beginner's move *might* be a good idea, as it gives an opportunity to discuss dips and drops safety with beginners.

Gojive
17th-May-2006, 09:33 AM
The half-windwill hasn't been a beginner's move for over a year now. :)

Is that just from the Ceroc set, or have other organisations dropped it too?

(Methinks I should have perhaps gone to a few beginner's classes again, before starting this thread :blush: )



Can't think what I'd add or remove. I think I've said somewhere before on the forum that making the first move seducer a beginner's move *might* be a good idea, as it gives an opportunity to discuss dips and drops safety with beginners.

Yes, that certainly sounds like a good idea to me.

Donna
17th-May-2006, 02:29 PM
Is that just from the Ceroc set, or have other organisations dropped it too?

(Methinks I should have perhaps gone to a few beginner's classes again, before starting this thread :blush: )



Yes, that certainly sounds like a good idea to me.

What about beginners who have a bad back etc... I'm sure if that's something they really wouldn't expect to be doing in their first lesson and would drive them away.

Princess Fi
17th-May-2006, 02:58 PM
What about beginners who have a bad back etc... I'm sure if that's something they really wouldn't expect to be doing in their first lesson and would drive them away.

:yeah:

I can see too many things going badly with this idea - followers throwing their weight badly, leads twisting their followers (or worse, dropping them). Best for new dancers to get a hold on the basics like balance, and build up their dancing confidence before doing dips.

(even if that's what everyone signs up for dance lessons in the first place :na: )

TheTramp
17th-May-2006, 03:16 PM
Ummm. I think that I'm in agreement that maybe something like the first move seducer should be part of the beginner class.

It's not really a dip and followers should be taking their own weight totally in this move. It would prepare ladies for being dipped by people in freestyle (because even though you tell people to ask before doing dips, and not to do dips on beginners, some people still will (and I'm not mentioning those people who do airsteps with people on their first night at all here!)). You could also bring out other safety points, like the fact that you don't have to do a dip when the man leads you into it - possibly protecting their bad backs etc.

But I'm only very slightly on the side of adding them in. Sitting on the fence? Who? Me? :whistle:

Ghost
17th-May-2006, 03:29 PM
*joins the Tramp on the fence*
Pros -
Introduces the whole ettiqutte thing early on as teachers can explain the whole "you need to be careful / ask" thing
Gives guys something cool to do so they can stop feeling the need to do complicated dangerous drops they don't really know yet when they start Intermediate

Cons -
Some people don't listen to the teacher
Some beginners will try and go too far

I guess I'd stylise the move more - make it even less of a dip and more of a seduce if that makes any sense? Think a minimalist version.

Be Well,
Christopher

ducasi
17th-May-2006, 04:15 PM
The arguments for and against is why I had said "*maybe*", as I can also see both sides...

On one of the Aussie DVDs I've got, it starts by teaching a "First Move Safe Dip", then goes on to do the "First Move Dip" (this is from memory, so I might not have it exactly right). If I recall, the key difference is that the lady takes all of her own weight in the safe version.

Ghost
17th-May-2006, 06:10 PM
The arguments for and against is why I had said "*maybe*", as I can also see both sides...

On one of the Aussie DVDs I've got, it starts by teaching a "First Move Safe Dip", then goes on to do the "First Move Dip" (this is from memory, so I might not have it exactly right). If I recall, the key difference is that the lady takes all of her own weight in the safe version. *makes room for Ducasi on the fence*
That's how I remember it too.

As an aside about the half windmill. I was dancing with a lady a while back who'd stopped doing Ceroc a and then re-started and she kept changing my backpasses into half windmills.

Be Well,
Christopher

ducasi
17th-May-2006, 06:16 PM
As an aside about the half windmill. I was dancing with a lady a while back who'd stopped doing Ceroc a and then re-started and she kept changing my backpasses into half windmills. Good reason to go for a "lazy back pass", where you just dump the girl's hand on your waist and catch it round the other side...

(And, yeah, I'm only talking about Ceroc removing the half windmill from the beginner's move list... No idea about other organisations. :))

Princess Fi
17th-May-2006, 06:20 PM
*makes room for Ducasi on the fence*


Sheesh! That's some fence if its supporting Ducasi, Trampy and Ghost :D

Caro
17th-May-2006, 06:52 PM
I would agree that some sort of (very easy ) fancy move should be included in the beginners class, because indeed that is why most people sign up in the first place.
I think I would go for a gentle side to side lean rather than a seducer (you know that move when you bring the lady side to side and just lean on your left leg - sorry don't know the names of moves :flower: ) because the potential for things going wrong (injuries and lady dropping!) is reduced - at least that's my impression.

However on the cons side, if that move had been taught during my first class I would probably have run away :eek: being just utterly scared, so I can imagine that would be even worst for a beginner lead. :eek: :eek:

So I guess it means we shoud find a way to teach this move only to beginners who've been to say at least 2 or 3 classes before (can't really think of a nice way to do that - may be when the teacher asks at the beginning who's there for the first time, and if there's nobody, and if the class his fairly small, he/she might decide to do that move...)

That's a hell of a fence indeed, I have just joined and it's still there :D

TA Guy
17th-May-2006, 07:19 PM
However on the cons side, if that move had been taught during my first class I would probably have run away :eek: being just utterly scared, so I can imagine that would be even worst for a beginner lead. :eek: :eek:



I think that would override my choice. I remember, just, being a beginner... even an arm jive seemed to take a lot of concentration back then :) I think it's difficult to improve on the beginner moves without adding lots of negatives. Obviously you can tweak, the Yoyo has changed since I started, windmill (which I understand most ladies hate anyway) could be dumped, if it hasn't already been etc. etc.

bigdjiver
17th-May-2006, 08:44 PM
I have met too many ladies that will not do any dips or a lean after years of dancing to believe that introducing such a move into a beginners class is a good idea.

Most beginners think that an octupus or the shoulder drop are fancy moves, and some even think that they are too fancy. I had to make a little model with pegs and string before I "got" the octopus.

Ceroc keep an attendance database. If they got their act together it would be possible to identify true beginners, and see what the retention rates were for beginners related to the moves being taught. That should identify which moves, if any, to drop, and give some clue as to which types of move to introduce. It would also give a real mechanism for evaluating new beginner moves.

I suspect that introducing a wider range of beginner moves and dividing the moves into "core" and "supplementary" moves would get more people attending the beginners lessons, which in turn would enhance the evening, and reduce the step up from beginner to intermediate.

ducasi
17th-May-2006, 09:22 PM
have met too many ladies that will not do any dips or a lean after years of dancing to believe that introducing such a move into a beginners class is a good idea. Then again, perhaps if they had been introduced to *safe* dips as beginners, they'd be more willing to do them years later.

Just a thought...

ducasi
17th-May-2006, 11:27 PM
Then again, perhaps if they had been introduced to *safe* dips as beginners, they'd be more willing to do them years later.

Just a thought...
Sorry, forgot to say something...

It's not just about the ladies' confidence in doing dips themselves – it's about their confidence in the men doing the dipping. If they knew that pretty much every guy who asked to dance with had been taught how to do dips properly as a beginner, this may also increase their desire to do them.

Of course, there are still exceptions and special cases, and they could be a good enough reason *not* to teach a safe dip to beginners.

I'd suggest a bit of experimentation could be done. :)

Baruch
17th-May-2006, 11:55 PM
Mark and Jackie did a seducer in the beginners' class in Cardiff this week and last week, with a lot of emphasis on safety, ladies supporting their own weight, guys bending knees and keeping back straight, etc. They also pointed out that anyone who doesn't feel comfortable or confident doing dips could refuse. It seemed to work well enough, but I don't think I'd be brave enough to teach a seducer to beginners. I can see the arguments in favour, though.

(Any more room on that fence?)

DavidB
17th-May-2006, 11:59 PM
Sorry - we are talking about beginners here? People who have never been to a dance class in their lives? Whose knowledge of partner dancing begins and ends with a smooch? Who are already trying to cope with 3 unfamiliar things (the music, the movements and holding hands whilst dancing)?

And you want to teach them dips in their first class?

No. Absolutely not.

(Nowhere near the fence. Not even in the field next to it)

Ghost
18th-May-2006, 12:08 AM
(Any more room on that fence?) There's enough scientists around to keep it structurally sound; I suspect we just some more infinities involved :wink:

I vividly remember one Intermediate class when a simple first move dip was taught where I specifically asked every lady in rotation to just do a very small dip. Even did the inch thing with my finger and thumb. They all nodded. However a grand total of 3 actually respected my wishes!

But then the beginners are going to be in the intermediate class in a few lessons anyway so..........

What about the one where you stand together and just kinda sink down instead? The official version of this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=225574&highlight=playboy#post225574)

Be Well,
Christopher

Baruch
18th-May-2006, 12:14 AM
I don't know about changing the beginners' moves, but I'd love to change a few of the names.

"...and for our third move this evening, we're going to do the First Move."

How daft is that?

Ghost
18th-May-2006, 12:14 AM
(Nowhere near the fence. Not even in the field next to it)
Ok would you simplify the existing moves more then?

Eg the first move the part in the open out stage where the lady rests her hand on the guy - and then forgets to remove it and elbows him as he continues the move :tears:

and then introduce them as "style" points in intermediate classes?

Be Well,
Christopher

Baruch
18th-May-2006, 12:22 AM
And you want to teach them dips in their first class?

No. Absolutely not.
There are worse things than dips. A pretzel or an arch (archiespin to you Ceroc types) could be extremely dangerous if not done properly. I know Ceroc removed the pretzel from their list of beginners' moves, but that was only comparatively recently.

I think it's good to teach beginners the basics of moves and techniques that can be expanded on later. Perhaps a small dip, with all the relevant safety advice, could be included in that.

Ghost
18th-May-2006, 12:28 AM
There are worse things than dips.

I think it's good to teach beginners the basics of moves and techniques that can be expanded on later. Perhaps a small dip, with all the relevant safety advice, could be included in that.
What about if once every 6 weeks the beginner class was taught with just one move (the first move seems logical) and the seducer we're talking about?

Be Well,
Christopher

ducasi
18th-May-2006, 12:43 AM
Sorry - we are talking about beginners here? People who have never been to a dance class in their lives? Whose knowledge of partner dancing begins and ends with a smooch? Who are already trying to cope with 3 unfamiliar things (the music, the movements and holding hands whilst dancing)? I'd hope at least the music is at least vaguely familiar, though folks tell me that beginners pay little attention to it anyway...

And you want to teach them dips in their first class?

No. Absolutely not. What is fundamentally different in complexity between a first move safe dip, and, say, a catapult?

I'd say the dip is simpler, and the lean part of the catapult requires the dancers to balance each other much more than a small dip would – where the lady is responsible for taking all her own weight.

With proper instruction, and students who realise that they're learning with other beginners, I'm not so sure it wouldn't work.

That said, you've got way more experience of these things than I have... But if Trampy slightly on my side of the fence, I'd hope I'm not talking complete rubbish.

spindr
18th-May-2006, 12:43 AM
If you can't lead and follow and don't understand floor craft -- then how can you be supposed to know when / where it's safe to do a dip / drop. At least if you dance a first move in the wrong place, the most that tends to go wrong is that someone gets trodden on.

Similarly, if you don't have timing / balance, then surely you shouldn't even be thinking about doing dips / drops.

Let's not even go in to the idea that all beginners are going to turn up in sensible footwear.

SpinDr

ducasi
18th-May-2006, 12:46 AM
If you can't lead and follow and don't understand floor craft -- then how can you be supposed to know when / where it's safe to do a dip / drop. At least if you dance a first move in the wrong place, the most that tends to go wrong is that someone gets trodden on.

Similarly, if you don't have timing / balance, then surely you shouldn't even be thinking about doing dips / drops.
Again, I'd suggest that a catapult, in terms of safety and floor-craft, is more dangerous than a simple first move dip. We're not talking about ballroom drops here.

Ghost
18th-May-2006, 12:55 AM
That said, you've got way more experience of these things than I have... But if Trampy slightly on my side of the fence, I'd hope I'm not talking complete rubbish.
I have to admit that's the only reason I haven't legged it off the fence yet.

Be Well,
Christopher

spindr
18th-May-2006, 01:04 AM
Again, I'd suggest that a catapult, in terms of safety and floor-craft, is more dangerous than a simple first move dip. We're not talking about ballroom drops here.
???Lost me here completely??? Can't see the major problems with a catapult?

Anyway, I think the proponents of the idea should pick a complete beginner leader (turning up to their very first lesson) teach them the move and ask them to lead them into a dip -- if you feel confident / happy about it afterwards, then please post.

SpinDr

Ghost
18th-May-2006, 01:07 AM
???Lost me here completely??? Can't see the major problems with a catapult?

Anyway, I think the proponents of the idea should pick a complete beginner leader (turning up to their very first lesson) teach them the move and ask them to lead them into a dip -- if you feel confident / happy about it afterwards, then please post.

SpinDr
Um send me a beginner then. As long as I get to take my full weight I've got no problem with this.

Be Well,
Christopher

TheTramp
18th-May-2006, 01:14 AM
Such responsibility!!

I do see DavidB's side of things. Which is why I'm on the fence, rather than off in a field of my own. And to a degree, I agree with him!

The main reasons (as previously stated) that I might be tempted to include a 1st move seducer (not sure I'd call it a dip, not sure I'd want to call it a seducer in a beginners class either - I'm open to suggestions on a name!) in the list of beginner moves, is mainly because when it comes to freestyle, there are plenty of men who do that sort of thing on the dance floor to people in their first week anyhow.

So, by teaching a very basic level of move, you can at least emphasise safety points (the main one being that you don't have to actually do the move if you don't want to), and teach correct procedure etc. As previously stated, if it was included in the list, I'd expect it to be taught that the lady takes ALL of her own weight, in more of a sitting position, than taking her weight backwards.

Incidentally, the pretzel has never been taught at a beginners class, or been in the beginner move list in the 7 years I've been doing Ceroc.

Baruch
18th-May-2006, 01:15 AM
Um send me a beginner then.
I don't think Parcelforce will take them, so it'll have to be via courier :wink:

Ghost
18th-May-2006, 01:17 AM
I don't think Parcelforce will take them, so it'll have to be via courier :wink:
Hmm mail order dancers - now there's an idea :wink:

Be Well,
Christopher

TheTramp
18th-May-2006, 01:18 AM
???Lost me here completely??? Can't see the major problems with a catapult?

Anyway, I think the proponents of the idea should pick a complete beginner leader (turning up to their very first lesson) teach them the move and ask them to lead them into a dip -- if you feel confident / happy about it afterwards, then please post.

Ummm. You turn the girl, and send her out behind you at arms length. Most intermediates don't look behind them when doing this. Let alone beginners.

As for picking a complete beginner leader to do a very basic, simple dip, where I take my own weight..... Since I am quite happy letting ladies "lead" me into a one armed ballroom drop (where I take my own weight), I really don't have a problem with this. I don't think that it's a particularly relevant example.....

spindr
18th-May-2006, 01:25 AM
Ummm. You turn the girl, and send her out behind you at arms length. Most intermediates don't look behind them when doing this. Let alone beginners.
In that case they won't look when they lean / dip / drop / seduce their follower...


As for picking a complete beginner leader to do a very basic, simple dip, where I take my own weight..... Since I am quite happy letting ladies "lead" me into a one armed ballroom drop (where I take my own weight), I really don't have a problem with this. I don't think that it's a particularly relevant example.....
It's relevant if you pick the nervous guy who's just turned up -- doesn't have great balance -- but is wildly keen to try it and is likely to mislead it -- oh and has slippery shoes, a weak grip, etc., etc. 'Cause the beginner ladies will have to dance the move with him.

SpinDr

TheTramp
18th-May-2006, 02:09 AM
In that case they won't look when they lean / dip / drop / seduce their follower...


It's relevant if you pick the nervous guy who's just turned up -- doesn't have great balance -- but is wildly keen to try it and is likely to mislead it -- oh and has slippery shoes, a weak grip, etc., etc. 'Cause the beginner ladies will have to dance the move with him.

SpinDr

True. But the move I'm advocating (and have been describing) would be something that would be done in a minimal space, with the lady not taking her head back at all. *shrug* So it wouldn't matter if they looked or not. Whereas, with a catapult, and a crowded dance floor, there are issues - having been kicked in the shins many times from people doing this move!

But that wasn't the example that you asked us to comment on before. I'd be more than happy doing both the move that I've described, and a full one handed ballroom drop with your nervous guy (whether he'd be happy doing them with me might be another matter!). If you want to change the goalposts, and include beginner ladies, then that's another question.

Having said that, I appreciate both sides of the argument. And if you could guarentee that no beginner ladies would be taken into dips or even drops (or airsteps!) when in freestyle dancing, then I wouldn't see a need for such a move to be included in beginners classes. However, since you can't guarentee it, then I'm inclined (and, as said before, not fully convinced either) to suggest that maybe it's would be a good thing, as proper technique could be taught, as well as introducing all the safety issues. Hell, you could even introduce some beginning element of musicality, since for most people, hitting the break means doing some form of dip!

CJ
18th-May-2006, 02:22 AM
What about if once every 6 weeks the beginner class was taught with just one move (the first move seems logical) and the seducer we're talking about?

...and what happens if it's someone's first night ever?? Bad, bad and even worse.:angry:

Am delighted DavidB spoke up. Saves me writing the same ideas less well!!:D

Room for a wee one in the next field but one, David??

ducasi
18th-May-2006, 08:25 AM
???Lost me here completely??? Can't see the major problems with a catapult? Steve has already addressed this in terms of floor-craft – the inexperienced guy will lead the girl behind him without looking. The other thing I was thinking of in terms of safety is that the turning the girl under your arm part of the catapult is also often done wrong by beginners in a way that may cause injury to either party. Oh, and the lean part... What if one of them leans too much?

In a first move safe dip, the dip would be entirely in front of the lead, taking much less space than most moves and would not involve any strange contortions that could injure someone.

Anyway, I think the proponents of the idea should pick a complete beginner leader (turning up to their very first lesson) teach them the move and ask them to lead them into a dip -- if you feel confident / happy about it afterwards, then please post.Hmm... I'd be more concerned teaming this complete beginner with a determined lady dropper who at the slightest hint of a dip throws herself back. But then in this case, she'll probably get what's coming to her...

Still leaning on the dips side of the fence... :)

David Franklin
18th-May-2006, 09:16 AM
The other thing I was thinking of in terms of safety is that the turning the girl under your arm part of the catapult is also often done wrong by beginners in a way that may cause injury to either party. Oh, and the lean part... What if one of them leans too much?

In a first move safe dip, the dip would be entirely in front of the lead, taking much less space than most moves and would not involve any strange contortions that could injure someone.If you want to assume the same level of egregious dancing, don't you mean:

In a first move safe dip, the dip would be two feet to the left and a foot in front of the lead. The lady will throw all her weight backwards while sending her left foot skywards. The man will simultaneously lunge and bend forwards while overbalancing. Both will be so excited at learning a "flash move" that they won't think to look at all!

Given I've seen all the above behaviour when dips are taught in an intermediate class, I think it imprudent not to expect it in a beginners' class.

I'm not as far off the fence as DavidB, largely because I've seen them teach drops in the beginners' class in Sydney, and it seems to work there. But I think it's a somewhat different culture (more space, the average beginner is younger and fitter, and a lot more non-beginners do the beginners' class).

I think my increasing feeling is that these moves are largely orthogonal to dancing, and in a lot of ways I'd rather see them taught that way - get the mechanics right before worrying about moving to a count, or musicality. But I think it also makes sense to wait until the students aren't still struggling with left v.s. right, or finding the beat, or just the unfamiliarity of the learning environment.

Princess Fi
18th-May-2006, 09:58 AM
Both will be so excited at learning a "flash move" that they won't think to look at all...

Given I've seen all the above behaviour when dips are taught in an intermediate class, I think it imprudent not to expect it in a beginners' class.


:yeah: :respect:

That's exactly what I was trying to get at!!

Evan the 'safe' dips can end badly - I'm still nursing a sore back from Tuesday night's intermediate class where I was twisted badly by an over enthusiastic lead during a 'safe' dip.

So if that's what was happening in the intermediates, the thought of what would happen in the beginners' class just scares me.

I can in theory see the benefits of teaching dips early in dance-life (safety features, awareness of floor craft etc would all be improved), but I've been hurt once too often to get up on that fence I'm afriad :tears:

DavidB
18th-May-2006, 10:11 AM
In a first move safe dip, the dip would be entirely in front of the lead, taking much less space than most moves and would not involve any strange contortions that could injure someone.
You are assuming that people will do what they are told. Advanced dancers in a private lesson don't do what their teacher tells them first time, so why should a beginner in a big class who can't see the stage? Someone *will* throw their partner, or throw themselves, into a drop, no matter how many times you say not to.

Yes - the same will happen in an intermediate class. But hopefully by then the dancers are a bit more aware of each other's movement.

I can see the safety argument. If ladies are going to get dipped/dropped without warning in freestyle, it would be safer if they had some idea what to do. I would be all for dips & drops technique being taught in beginners workshops, or in a structured beginners course. However one great thing about Ceroc is that you can just turn up on any night. It is a near certainty that a beginners class will contain at least one person at their first ever class. If you teach a dip, they will do it. They have to - they only have 2 other moves they can do.

Of course, the public flogging of any man who throws an absolute beginner into a drop would also do the trick.

robd
18th-May-2006, 10:26 AM
(not sure I'd call it a dip, not sure I'd want to call it a seducer in a beginners class either - I'm open to suggestions on a name!)

First Move Drip

Combines dip/drop and also describes what the more perspirationally-challenged men are likely to be doing to the ladies at the same time.

Stuart M
18th-May-2006, 11:01 AM
Sorry - we are talking about beginners here? People who have never been to a dance class in their lives? Whose knowledge of partner dancing begins and ends with a smooch? Who are already trying to cope with 3 unfamiliar things (the music, the movements and holding hands whilst dancing)?

And you want to teach them dips in their first class?

No. Absolutely not.

(Nowhere near the fence. Not even in the field next to it)
:yeah:
I'm not even in the field next to CJ, and that's not just because of the cheap aftershave. Seems to me, some folk are forgetting just how difficult learning dance moves is for beginners. It's information overload for most folks already.

Try looking at the concentration level of a newbie (i.e. under 4 weeks) during the beginner's lesson, next time you take part. Measure the change in their facial expression after one, two, three then 4 moves in. Then imagine adding the many additional issues concerning seducers and dips to that '4 moves in' face. As a taxi I wouldn't at all be comfortable picking up the pieces later. Baaad idea...

Stuart M
18th-May-2006, 11:04 AM
I'm not even in the field next to CJ, and that's not just because of the cheap aftershave.
Just to clarify...


I meant CJ's aftershave. I'd imagine DavidB's is quite good - minimalist, perhaps, but good.

LMC
18th-May-2006, 12:34 PM
Oooh, another dips/drops conversation, how nice. Moving quickly along from horror stories of Evil People who have dipped/dropped without due skill, care and attention*:

Useless beginners' moves:

There are three armjive variations, which seems a bit excessive. The swizzle one is useful to test how 'flexible' a follower is though... I'd probably ditch the push spin version (we already have the ceroc spin, catapault and first move push spin for spinning).

Shoulderslide/manspin: so similar that one of those is surely redundant?

I would also lose the shoulder drop. I can't think of any "technical" aspect of the shoulder drop which isn't covered equally well in some other move (willing to be corrected) and the number of times a guy has turned before I've completed the return is not funny - and it hurts :tears:

In-and-out shoulders - just 'cos it's a naff move :D

I'd add to the current list...

Manhattan as a reasonably gentle introduction to f**tw*rk
Fake pretzel but *without* the hand-behind-back signal as a 'lead/follow' exercise

* Yoo hoo, I'm in THIS field over here - yeah, it's in the next county

TheTramp
18th-May-2006, 12:55 PM
You are assuming that people will do what they are told. Advanced dancers in a private lesson don't do what their teacher tells them first time, so why should a beginner in a big class who can't see the stage? Someone *will* throw their partner, or throw themselves, into a drop, no matter how many times you say not to.

Yes - the same will happen in an intermediate class. But hopefully by then the dancers are a bit more aware of each other's movement.

I agree with this too. On the other hand, I think that your average beginner listens a lot more than your 'average' intermediate, who knows exactly how to do everything by then, and really doesn't need to listen to the teacher! As for advanced dancers! :rolleyes: :whistle:

Princess Fi
18th-May-2006, 01:16 PM
As for advanced dancers!

no comment there trampy :whistle: :grin:

:hug:

Dizzy
18th-May-2006, 01:20 PM
In-and-out shoulders - just 'cos it's a naff move :D

{snip}

I'd add to the current list...

Manhattan as a reasonably gentle introduction to f**tw*rk



:yeah:

I agree with both of those. I feel that the in-and-out is unneccesary and know lots of people who feel this too but I also know this can be quite controversial too.

Ghost
18th-May-2006, 01:42 PM
There are three armjive variations, which seems a bit excessive. The swizzle one is useful to test how 'flexible' a follower is though...
I'm not sure if I picked up on the sarcasm, but I don't like the swizzle version because of the potential to do harm and because it rarely looks "right" in the swizzle pose stage when done by beginners.


Shoulderslide/manspin: so similar that one of those is surely redundant?
Simple, easy and lets you do the same move over and over without it being the same move over and over


In-and-out shoulders - just 'cos it's a naff move :D
Again, simple stalling tactic for beginners


I'd add to the current list...
Manhattan as a reasonably gentle introduction to f**tw*rk :yeah:

Fake pretzel but *without* the hand-behind-back signal as a 'lead/follow' exercise[/quote] Maybe

*goes back on the fence*


* Yoo hoo, I'm in THIS field over here - yeah, it's in the next county Yes but which side of the fence are you on? :devil:

Dance in beauty,
Christopher

Donna
18th-May-2006, 02:41 PM
Fake pretzel but *without* the hand-behind-back signal as a 'lead/follow' exercise Maybe [/QUOTE]

Isn't this one called the pretzel dummy?

CJ
18th-May-2006, 02:43 PM
Maybe

Isn't this one called the pretzel dummy?

Who you calling a dummy??

Donna
18th-May-2006, 02:47 PM
Who you calling a dummy??


You CJ! :na: Just kidding. :hug: That is what it's called though... because basically it's taking the mick out of the woman who went to take the offered hand behind back, but then the guy moves the hand away hence the reason it's called a pretzel dummy :sad:

MartinHarper
18th-May-2006, 03:09 PM
There are plenty of men who do that sort of thing on the dance floor to people in their first week anyhow.

Teaching a dip to beginners on their first week would only encourage that approach. My experience is that people who are taught dips more often (and at an earlier level) are far more likely to use dips in freestyle. At Ceroc Cheltenham, every intermediate class had a dip/drop/thing in it, whereas JazzJive Malvern only taught a single seducer (to "Intermediate Twos") ever, and only taught it four or five times a year. This unsurprisingly had a big impact on how people danced in freestyle.

ducasi
18th-May-2006, 03:48 PM
Teaching a dip to beginners on their first week would only encourage that approach. My experience is that people who are taught dips more often (and at an earlier level) are far more likely to use dips in freestyle. At Ceroc Cheltenham, every intermediate class had a dip/drop/thing in it, whereas JazzJive Malvern only taught a single seducer (to "Intermediate Twos") ever, and only taught it four or five times a year. This unsurprisingly had a big impact on how people danced in freestyle.
Do you find that those who are taught how to do dips, know how to do them?

Baruch
18th-May-2006, 09:18 PM
Evan the 'safe' dips
Is that a Welsh dancer? I may know him! :rofl:

(For the uninitiated, in South Wales people are often called by a nickname that reflects their job or some character trait - for example the milkman in the village where I grew up was always called Martin the Milk, and a friend of mine who had half an ear missing was called Steve Eighteen Months. Hence "Evan the Safe Dips".)

Princess Fi
19th-May-2006, 08:31 AM
Is that a Welsh dancer? I may know him! :rofl:


:yum:

Gadget
19th-May-2006, 01:31 PM
I would change the step-accross to place the right hand on the follower's hip when passing (thumb down); it can be used to prevent the over zelous from turning and to guide them past.

The Comb I would revert to blocking on the hip rather than the arm. {There's a thread somewhere on why}

The In-and-out I would change to a traveling move with following footwork rather than mirrored footwork. This would teach about connection, following and leading rather than how to do the birdy dance.

I like the swizzle - so many variations from it. The main problem with beginners is not rotating far enough and expecting to bounce back out immediatly.

I don't know if I would go as far as manhatans, but I think that the first move follow (into a 'ballroom' hold) should be taught simply because it's the basis of so many other moves.
I don't think that stepping back with the right is good for the first move - yes, it sets the follower up and is used in lots of other moves, but it seems to be a half-way house between opening out on the left and stepping in on the left; sort of unsure of which to do and gettig stuck in the middle.

The side-to-side I think should be taught with a hold for one count; teach the followers not to anticipate and set up for a pose and/or some 'musicality'

The Shoulder-drop is challenging and has so many points that can go wrong throughout it that opens lots of areas of teaching - mainly in timing and following.

The Basket is much better now that they are teaching it stepped back with the right, although I think that it would add dynamics if they removed the twist in before turning out again. (But that is likley to cause problems in positioning of beginners)

LMC
19th-May-2006, 02:14 PM
I don't think that stepping back with the right is good for the first move - yes, it sets the follower up and is used in lots of other moves, but it seems to be a half-way house between opening out on the left and stepping in on the left; sort of unsure of which to do and gettig stuck in the middle.
RED ALERT...

But sorry, I can't resist!

I agree that stepping back on the left for a first move *is* easier in terms of the footwork. But the point remains that in freestyle, the follower doesn't *know* that it's a FM next, and most other moves are easier with an initial step back on the right. So, if beginners are struggling with the step-in/turn out bit, that's the ideal time to teach the concept of quick ball changing. Sorted.

OK, enough FM footwork :rofl:

I agree absolutely about the swizzle :nice:

When I said in & out shoulders, I meant side-to-side shoulders :rolleyes: @ me. (I'm not bad with people's names, but move names? :what: ). The double handed in & out *is* useful for talking about connection/tension, not sure about travelling though...

Jive Brummie
19th-May-2006, 04:35 PM
Sorry guys but I totally agree with DavidB. To teach a beginner any form of dip or drop is just asking for injury...without a doubt.

Ceroc teachers have set routines for their classes along with a set time to complete them in. To put in a dip, however safe you feel it may be, is suicidal. External constraints as already mentioned would be the determining factor as to how well and/or safely the move was taught.

I absoutely cringe when beginners, of any experience say to me, can you show me this move or can you show me that move, just because they've seen the class hot shot do it and thought it looks good. All it does is promote the 'run before walk' syndrome, and whether you want to believe it or not, that is detrimental to a persons dance ability as time goes on. It's bad enough when a teacher teaches 'overturning' as a style point without even going into the pro's and con's of teaching dips/drops. (overturning....poor technique that can ruin a dance:angry: )

Classic beginners line...."Erm James, do you think Joe Bloggs should do the intermediate class? He's been coming to the beginners class for 3 weeks and is bored of doing the same moves!"

Answer..."No":sick:

So, as you can see, there is no fence sitting from me. Discuss safety during your class by all means, and there are many occassions when you can. You don't need to throw in a move like a dip to be able to refer to safety...

And as far as I remember (only been dancing since Nov '02), the pretzel has never, ever been a beginners move....Don't know anything before that though.

Sorry Ducasi, and I know you said *maybe*, but banish those thoughts from your bonce forthwith...before it catches on:flower:

JB (worried MJ teacher:sick: )

Gadget
21st-May-2006, 09:42 PM
But sorry, I can't resist!

I agree that stepping back on the left for a first move *is* easier in terms of the footwork. But the point remains that in freestyle, the follower doesn't *know* that it's a FM next, and most other moves are easier with an initial step back on the right. So, if beginners are struggling with the step-in/turn out bit, that's the ideal time to teach the concept of quick ball changing. Sorted.

OK, enough FM footwork :rofl:
Erm, I'm talking about the lead's footwork on count 3 :confused: Do you mean the ladies footwork on count 1?

LMC
22nd-May-2006, 11:06 AM
Sorry Gadget, I wasn't clear from your post that you were talking about the lead on count 3 (yes, I meant the follow on count 1).

I've always been taught lead steps back left on count 3 and I think it looks nicer and 'feels better' in terms of balance not that I always remember to actually step back left on the turn out when I'm leading mind...

tsh
22nd-May-2006, 11:54 AM
The Comb I would revert to blocking on the hip rather than the arm. {There's a thread somewhere on why}

I'd just bin the comb. I'm sure it puts off lots of newcommers, especially since it's taught with a long dialogue as you're standing closer to your partner than most beginners regard as really very close indeed... Similar to the dips idea -something which is useful to teach to the followers who do come back after a few weeks, once they've got the hang of some of the other things they need to learn.


The Basket is much better now that they are teaching it stepped back with the right, although I think that it would add dynamics if they removed the twist in before turning out again. (But that is likley to cause problems in positioning of beginners)
I was wondering if the teach had changed, or if I was just noticing it more. I tend to lead it as a step back (outside feet, but my feet seem to vary depending on how much direction I end up putting into the lead), step forward with no twisting - but the teaching now seems to end up with the follower pointing about NNE before the unwind now. This in my view is just messy, and encourages the followers to over rotate all the time...

Sean

DavidB
22nd-May-2006, 12:29 PM
{first move}
I've always been taught lead steps back left on count 3 and I think it looks nicer and 'feels better' in terms of balance


{basket}
I tend to lead it as a step back (outside feet, but my feet seem to vary depending on how much direction I end up putting into the lead), step forward with no twisting - but the teaching now seems to end up with the follower pointing about NNE before the unwind now. This in my view is just messy, and encourages the followers to over rotate all the time...

I would teach a beginner to use the outside foot to reduce the risk of stepping on / being stepped on by your partners foot.

However for an intermediate dancer, I would recommend the inside foot, as it looks better as a couple, and maintains the connection better. It also feels far better for me.

Clive Long
22nd-May-2006, 12:32 PM
I would teach a beginner to use the outside foot to reduce the risk of stepping on / being stepped on by your partners foot.

However for an intermediate dancer, I would recommend the inside foot, as it looks better as a couple, and maintains the connection better. It also feels far better for me.
Ahhhh. First move footwork. A return to form for the Forum. Although DavidB advising on footwork .... :whistle: .. so I'm told :ducks:

Clive

DavidB
22nd-May-2006, 12:36 PM
Although DavidB advising on footwork Do as I say, not as I do.

LMC
22nd-May-2006, 12:56 PM
Do as I say, not as I do.
Good enough for me, I've got used to stepping back right on 3 as a follower so I shall continue to do so as a leader and hope no-one notices :D

spindr
22nd-May-2006, 01:18 PM
Good enough for me, I've got used to stepping back right on 3 as a follower so I shall continue to do so as a leader and hope no-one notices :D
Pretty sure that followers should always step back on their right leg.

For leaders, there's no "one true way" -- stepping back on the right as a leader means that you can emphasize the turn out on beat three. However, stepping back on the left means that you are mirroring your partner -- and this can make it easier to get into a closed dance hold on beat four.

So yet again the leaders have the most difficult job :)

SpinDr

LMC
22nd-May-2006, 05:44 PM
Pretty sure that followers should always step back on their right leg.
It's pretty difficult not to (although some beginners manage to step back left on the turn out, which is... interesting...)

ANYWAY... back to useful beginners' moves.

I still fondly remember Franck's workshop on mirroring all the moves (i.e. lead uses other hand and 'reverses' actions accordingly) - this was really useful for balance. So let's double the number of beginner moves by teaching them in both "directions" :devil:

under par
23rd-May-2006, 06:31 AM
NYWAY... back to useful beginners' moves.

I still fondly remember Franck's workshop on mirroring all the moves (i.e. lead uses other hand and 'reverses' actions accordingly) - this was really useful for balance. So let's double the number of beginner moves by teaching them in both "directions" :devil:

I will certainly be giving this concept a try soon. Thanks:flower: