Style of teaching ?

[johnthehappyguy]

I attended an MJ workshop recently, and the style of teaching used could be summarised thus -

Teacher parodied bad dancers ( in general ).

Teacher then did what good looked like.

Teacher then parodied bad dancers again.

Most people in the class were laughing, but there were others who had been only dancing a short time who did not laugh.

Should teachers parody bad dancers ?

( I have personally been on the recieving end another time and found it ok - I knew the teacher and feel i can accept constructive criticism. )

However it is perhaps not the best way to encourage or retain newer dancers.

I have polled to see what others views are.

John:nice:

[Your wife]

( I have personally been on the recieving end another time and found it ok - I knew the teacher and feel i can accept constructive criticism. )


Ouch!

While its very good for a teacher to troubleshoot bad habits forming in beginners, singleing someone out for criticism to get a cheap laugh smacks of bullying. I think you should shop this person.

I been in beginner repeat classes before where taxi dancers have become exasperated and patronise the beginners, hence many of them dont come back, what a waste!

[Ghost]

Ouch!

While its very good for a teacher to troubleshoot bad habits forming in beginners, singleing someone out for criticism to get a cheap laugh smacks of bullying. I think you should shop this person.

I been in beginner repeat classes before where taxi dancers have become exasperated and patronise the beginners, hence many of them dont come back, what a waste!
While I agree with this I don't think this is what was meant. I think the concept was that the teacher was parodying a steroetypical bad dancer rather than someone in the room.

Personally I think it's a technique best left for workshops of Intermediate+

I've seen Amir use this technique very well to exagerate quite subtle points so that you become aware of them and can do something about it.

But mocking students is bad! In fact I didn't do either of the Ceroc Style Workshops because I was so appaled at the teacher's behaviour at the intermediate one!

Be Well,
Christopher

[TiggsTours]

Ouch!

While its very good for a teacher to troubleshoot bad habits forming in beginners, singleing someone out for criticism to get a cheap laugh smacks of bullying. I think you should shop this person.

I been in beginner repeat classes before where taxi dancers have become exasperated and patronise the beginners, hence many of them dont come back, what a waste!
:yeah:

I would never agree with singling any one individual out at all! However, to demonstrate a move, once done badly, then done well, can highlight to some people where they themselves may be going wrong, they can then correct their own errors, without the humilation of having it pointed out to them publicly!

[MartinHarper]

Should teachers parody bad dancers?

Yes, absolutely. This is what a local-ish Lindy teacher does, and it is a fantastic learning aid. It does need to be softened with some kind words - it would be easy for a klutzy teacher to come across as patronising/insulting. Done well, I feel like it's a great way to demonstrate the differences and guide the class to the preferred style/technique. The way this particular teacher does it, he just says "have a look at these two different ways of doing this move", and the bad option isn't really a parody: more of an exaggeration.

I've seen a few Ceroc teachers use it to demonstrate the important of some arm tension, by showing how difficult it is to lead a move if the follower has floppsy arms. That's good too.

[ducasi]

While its very good for a teacher to troubleshoot bad habits forming in beginners, singleing someone out for criticism to get a cheap laugh smacks of bullying. I think you should shop this person. John(THG) didn't say anything about anyone being singled out.

I think it's a good thing to say "this is what I'm seeing .... and this is what you should be doing ...."

How else do people see where they are going wrong?

[David Franklin]

Yes, absolutely. This is what a local-ish Lindy teacher does, and it is a fantastic learning aid. It does need to be softened with some kind words - it would be easy for a klutzy teacher to come across as patronising/insulting.Or a not so klutzy teacher - I think there are still more than a few people unhappy with Robert Cordoba's portrayal of Modern Jive. (http://cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4310)

[Donna]

How else do people see where they are going wrong?

I totally agree. People obviously go to workshops to improve and how are they to know if they are doing something wrong if not told? That is the teachers job to tell them and of course, I don't see anything wrong with the teacher making a bit of a joke of it either with those who are intermediate level dancers. Depends if they can take a joke or not. Of course, those who have just started wouldn't know how to take it, and would be put off.

[Piglet]

Most people in the class were laughing, but there were others who had been only dancing a short time who did not laugh.
Did you get the impression that the newer dances thought they were being got at?

I think that parodies are fine so long as they're not directed at a new dancer (in particular) or a dancer that doesn't like to be criticised. My personal opinion is that it might be hard to take, but if it improves my dancing then go ahead and slate me (but not everyone all at once :rolleyes: )

Although I can think of someone who has been dancing for a while that still hasn't improved much and if he were parodied in a workshop then everyone would know who it was directed at - only because you can't help but notice how awkward/uncomfortable his dancing looks. To be honest, I don't think it would matter how many times this was pointed out to him - it would probably still miss the mark. Thankfully, he does appear to be "one-of-a-kind."

[CJ]

Gadget, your not going to take that, surely?!?:whistle:

[bigdjiver]

I do not think a teacher should ever demonstrate "how to do it wrong". Someone is always likely to believe that it means them. Publicly admonishing bad dancing puts additional pressure on learners. There is also always the small chance that a beginner is in information overload, only taking in snatches, and will take what they see as the way to do it.

[TA Guy]

I do not think a teacher should ever demonstrate "how to do it wrong". Someone is always likely to believe that it means them. Publicly admonishing bad dancing puts additional pressure on learners. There is also always the small chance that a beginner is in information overload, only taking in snatches, and will take what they see as the way to do it.

I agree, of what possible purpose is showing it being done wrong ?

There is always someone in a class, even intermediate, that will take it personally and feel there being made fun of.

It is a way to get some laughs... like comedians... embarrassing your audience, it's a cheap and counter-productive way to make your class entertaining.

The only time I feel it should be done is during one-on-one teaching, and then only if it can't be avoided.

[David Franklin]

I agree, of what possible purpose is showing it being done wrong ?Obviously, to show the consequences of doing it wrong. Particularly if the cause and effect aren't necessarily obvious. (e.g. "you need to step forward on the right here, and to the outside of your partner; if you step forward on the left instead then [4 steps later], when you want to turn, you can't, because your weight is on the wrong foot").

It's more problematic if the consequences of doing it wrong are that you will look rubbish; as you say, there's a danger people will take it personally. I think it's important it comes across as "it's natural to do X, but it doesn't look good" as opposed to "some of you are so dorkish you do X, and it makes you look like a dork".

[TheTramp]

I agree, of what possible purpose is showing it being done wrong ?

Ummm. To realise that you're doing it wrongly?

Try teaching. When you stand on the stage, and you're watching the class, and you can see some people are struggling. Often, they don't even realise what they are doing wrong. So, you show them.

It's quite easy to do this, without being person specific, or putting people down, or making fun of anyone. I totally agree that comments like, "You, the man in the white shirt......", are inappropriate, and shouldn't be used (and yes, I have seen some teachers do this). But a general, "Some men are not taking the hand all the way across their chest, and it looks a little tucked up, like this", (in the yo-yo for example), are fine.

When teaching a workshop recently, I was trying to give non-person specific hints, and was told quite bluntly by the people in the workshop that they wanted to know if it was them doing it wrongly. So at least some people prefer to be taught that way too.

I think that anyone who does take a 'general display of how not to do it' in the wrong way is maybe being a little over-sensitive. After all, no-one is perfect, we all make mistakes, there's nothing wrong with that. That's what a class is there for - to give people an opportunity of putting things right. And I think that seeing what is wrong can often help.

[Gadget]

Gadget, your not going to take that, surely?!?:whistle:
Can you parody a parody? :rolleyes:

[TA Guy]

Ummm. To realise that you're doing it wrongly?

Try teaching. When you stand on the stage, and you're watching the class, and you can see some people are struggling. Often, they don't even realise what they are doing wrong. So, you show them.

It's quite easy to do this, without being person specific, or putting people down, or making fun of anyone. I totally agree that comments like, "You, the man in the white shirt......", are inappropriate, and shouldn't be used (and yes, I have seen some teachers do this). But a general, "Some men are not taking the hand all the way across their chest, and it looks a little tucked up, like this", (in the yo-yo for example), are fine.

When teaching a workshop recently, I was trying to give non-person specific hints, and was told quite bluntly by the people in the workshop that they wanted to know if it was them doing it wrongly. So at least some people prefer to be taught that way too.

I think that anyone who does take a 'general display of how not to do it' in the wrong way is maybe being a little over-sensitive. After all, no-one is perfect, we all make mistakes, there's nothing wrong with that. That's what a class is there for - to give people an opportunity of putting things right. And I think that seeing what is wrong can often help.


I've taught. One of the first, and most basic things I was taught in training was, go out of your way not to embarrass your customers. :) I agree with that.

I take your point (and David Franklins), there is an argument for showing 'what is going wrong' or 'what is going to go wrong'. There is also a bit of difference between the comment you mention: "Some men are not taking the hand all the way across their chest, and it looks a little tucked up, like this" and the like... and parodying moves, which is what this thread started with and what my comment was specifically about.

Your teaching Blues, half the class have that handbounce that seems to drive the Blues mafia mad on here :) There is no need whatsoever to stand on stage, do a bouncy armjive and make yourself look like a member of the 'Alouatta seniculus' family (google it :)). Sure, you'll get some laughs, but you'll whizz off some too who happen to think your making fun of the way they dance. Over-sensitive maybe, but I personally despise that method of teaching. I also despise comedians who base their standup acts on 'picking on' and embarrassing members of the audience. Sorry.

[MartinHarper]

A classic example of this is the catapult. I've seen a number of MJ teachers teach this, and often they'll show that it is important that the boy move, otherwise the girl has to run around them and this is hard work. It's one thing to say "the men have to move", it's another thing to visually show why moving is important, the consequences of not moving, and how much movement is required.

[Donna]

Try teaching. When you stand on the stage, and you're watching the class, and you can see some people are struggling. Often, they don't even realise what they are doing wrong. So, you show them.

It's quite easy to do this, without being person specific, or putting people down, or making fun of anyone. I totally agree that comments like, "You, the man in the white shirt......", are inappropriate, and shouldn't be used (and yes, I have seen some teachers do this). But a general, "Some men are not taking the hand all the way across their chest, and it looks a little tucked up, like this", (in the yo-yo for example), are fine.


I agree with everything said here. It's very important to point out what is going wrong without directing it at one person alone (which would be unacceptable) As a demonstrator, I look down and see most guys doing certain moves which could result in hurting the lady, or even himself and so it's very important that the teacher points it out to prevent any injuries. He tells them that he can see some of them doing it like this.. then does a demo and points out why it shouldn't be done that way. I know that he is only talking about a couple of guys in the class, but then it's useful for everybody in the class to listen to what he has to say to so that people don't fall into dangerous habits.

[frodo]

I do not think a teacher should ever demonstrate "how to do it wrong". Someone is always likely to believe that it means them. Publicly admonishing bad dancing puts additional pressure on learners. There is also always the small chance that a beginner is in information overload, only taking in snatches, and will take what they see as the way to do it.

If the teacher does this habitually on many different subjects, I think it becomes much harder to believer they are singling someone out, especially in a large class.

However it may be less appropriate in a workshop with the small numbers especially beginners, who are less likely to view being singled out as value for money.
Also in a workshop the lower teacher / dancer ratio may mean, more dancers can be told what they're doing wrong without telling the whole class.

Generally I think the technique is invaluable and for teachers who do it well it add significantly to their teaching.

[bigdjiver]

A classic example of this is the catapult. I've seen a number of MJ teachers teach this, and often they'll show that it is important that the boy move, otherwise the girl has to run around them and this is hard work. It's one thing to say "the men have to move", it's another thing to visually show why moving is important, the consequences of not moving, and how much movement is required.:devil: Now here I go, picking on an individual out of the crowd ...:blush:

Why not teach the catapult:
Now step back and bring the lady forward to your side ...
step back so that you are side by side ...

I still believe that it is easier to learn a succession of do's rather than a mixture of do's and do nots.

[Rhythm King]

Yes, but sometimes what people think they are doing and what they are actually doing are not the same, particularly if they are not entirely concentrating on what the teacher is saying. A demo of such faults can highlight them to those who haven't noticed they are committing them.

[bigdjiver]

Yes, but sometimes what people think they are doing and what they are actually doing are not the same, particularly if they are not entirely concentrating on what the teacher is saying. A demo of such faults can highlight them to those who haven't noticed they are committing them.And this leads to the "OMG, its me that they are talking about" syndrome.

[ducasi]

And this leads to the "OMG, its me that they are talking about" syndrome.
Well that's the point – how else do you let the folks in a class know that they are doing something wrong, when they think they're doing it right?

[Dorothy]

Well that's the point – how else do you let the folks in a class know that they are doing something wrong, when they think they're doing it right?

Maybe approaching the individual after class and saying, "I noticed that during the class you were doing 'this' instead of 'this' "? Maybe saying "some people are doing this..." - and look us straight in the eye as you say it! I don't think singling out is acceptable, I wouldn't like that. It's the teacher's responsibility to ensure people get it, and most of us would prefer to get it right, and therefore not mind being approached (I guess)?

[LMC]

Publically singling out individuals - big no no IMO - unless someone's imminently about to be dropped/injured!

Sometimes demonstrating the "wrong way" can be useful, but the commentary should in positive terms and include the reason for doing whatever-it-is the correct way i.e. "If you do it this way, then xxxx might/will happen, this way is better because yyyy" would have more impact (for me anyway) than a simple "Don't do whatever"

Most recent good example I can think of is a teacher (sorry can't remember who to give credit) demonstrating how inelegant a catapault looks if the guy just stands still and flings the woman around. A much stronger message than just saying it looks bad.

[ducasi]

Maybe approaching the individual after class and saying, "I noticed that during the class you were doing 'this' instead of 'this' "? Maybe saying "some people are doing this..." - and look us straight in the eye as you say it! I don't think singling out is acceptable, I wouldn't like that. It's the teacher's responsibility to ensure people get it, and most of us would prefer to get it right, and therefore not mind being approached (I guess)?
In a workshop situation, when it's only one person, maybe. But not in a weekly class of a hundred people and for each move maybe a different half dozen are doing something wrong.

I've been in the situation where a move I've been taught on a number of occasions, but not been entirely happy about, has clicked specifically because the teacher said something along the lines of "if you don't do this bit right, this will happen... Instead do this..."

If the teacher had approached me later, firstly I've feel singled-out, and secondly I'd object to wasting valuable freestyle time.

[David Franklin]

If the teacher had approached me later, firstly I've feel singled-out, and secondly I'd object to wasting valuable freestyle time.
Not that I would want to suggest some people take their freestyle time too seriously, but the following screenplay came to mind...


Tiggerbabe: Would you like to dance?
Ducasi: Sure!
Tiggerbabe: I hope you don't mind me mentioning it, but I noticed during the class you were having trouble with one of the moves, and...
Ducasi: (interrupting): I worked it out for myself, thanks. And I'm sorry, but you've wasted my valuable freestyle time mentioning it. I'm afraid I'm going to have to kill you now.
[cue: Psycho Shower Music]

[ducasi]

Not that I would want to suggest some people take their freestyle time too seriously, but the following screenplay came to mind...


Tiggerbabe: Would you like to dance?
Ducasi: Sure!
Tiggerbabe: I hope you don't mind me mentioning it, but I noticed during the class you were having trouble with one of the moves, and...
Ducasi: (interrupting): I worked it out for myself, thanks. And I'm sorry, but you've wasted my valuable freestyle time mentioning it. I'm afraid I'm going to have to kill you now.
[cue: Psycho Shower Music]

OK, it's easier when the teacher is female and the troubled dancer male, but not so easy in a male-male or female-female situation.

[DavidB]

but not so easy in a male-male or female-female situation.
male teacher: You're crap
male student: No I'm not
male teacher: I'm bigger than you
male student: Ok then.

female teacher: You're crap
female student: No I'm not
female teacher: I've got more sparkles on my shoes
female student: Ok then.
[pause]
female student: Where did you get them?

[David Franklin]

female teacher: You're crap
female student: No I'm not
female teacher: I've got more sparkles on my shoes
female student: Ok then.
[pause]
female student: Where did you get them?:respect:

You know, I've just had this horrified realisation. In a few years, they're going to sort out growing arbitrary sized and shaped pieces of diamond. Of course, the early uses will be jewellery, maybe some special optical lenses, super sharp knives. But realistically, the days of the diamond monocrystal stillettos can't be that far away.

And can you imagine how much it's going to hurt when a lady wearing a pair of them steps on your foot? :tears: