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frodo
10th-May-2006, 08:30 PM
From page 8 of the Camber 2006 Aftermath thread http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8464&page=8 are really some interesting comments from a Tango teacher.


...
along with the fact that part of the reason we couldn’t make it work is down to yourselves, in Tango it is the convention that you change partners every time a change is called, this is so you get used to leading and being led people all types of people of differing heights, weights, girths, and leg lengths, but I have to ask you people what are you all afraid of ??, we were incredulous that so many of you clung to each other, do you have so little confidence in yourselves, and your dance abilities, that you are so terrified of dancing with other people.

The Embrace, whether you like it or not the Tango is performed in a close hold, chest to chest, when I first started Tango I tried to dance it like a tea dance until a very experienced female Tangista said to me “if you don’t like breasts don’t do the Tango” so rather than go into a longwinded 45 min explaination of the embrace, I told you to hug,, it wasn’t “dodgy” but some of you people really really need to grow up if you think it was, go out and try to find a life, please but don’t do the Tango. ...


The last sentence brings up an interesting and for me quite relevant question.

Should you only do Tango, if you're going to embrace it fully, or from another direction, is there any point teaching watered down (but more immediately accessible) Argentine Tango.

Clive Long
10th-May-2006, 09:13 PM
<< snip >>
Should you only do Tango, if you're going to embrace it fully, or from another direction, is there any point teaching watered down (but more immediately accessible) Argentine Tango.
To address the original question.

I have been to fair number of AT lessons. I am frustrated at what I perceive to be my lack of progress. I bore CeeCee with my self-criticism of my dancing.

For me, Tango should be easy; walk, walk, walk. I find it very hard.

(What may be true also of all skills or other dance forms) I always look "up" for my reference not "down". What I mean by that when I have been to a milonga (an evening's dance) I witness people who move beautifully. I want to move like them. I can't. But how long have they been dancing? How much time have they devoted to Tango to get to that standard? Am I prepared to put in the time to improve and not complain at my slow progress?

So should people only be "allowed" to dance Tango if they are prepared to sacrifice the time necessary to dance "properly". Of course not. What a silly idea. Dance is there. You choose to engage with it in any way you wish. You want to muggle dance? Great. Have a wonderful time. You can teach and learn any moves you like and if they relate to music (that may be in your head) and you wish to call it dancing, then it is. I may not like what you are doing, it may make me feel embarassed, but that's irrelevant. You carry on.

So teach what you like, move as you like. If people gain pleasure from that, there is the point, it is the only justification needed. If people want to spend an hour practising Tango pivots - fine. If they want to learn flashy leg kicks and ornaments and incorporate them into other dance styles - fine.

However, if you want to dance with a partner there gotta be rules and conventions about how you move (try to mix a foxtrot and a waltz). And the more people you want to dance with the more rigid the rules gotta be. Oh and if you want to compete there gotta be some reference point.

Don't think I addressed the question.

Clive

Feelingpink
10th-May-2006, 09:17 PM
I understand that TangoMoon may be a teacher ... and perhaps with more experience I may change my mind ... but I'm very happy dancing either in close embrace or further apart - whatever feels most natural with each partner.

I don't like TangoMoon's comments that rather belittled what seemed to be some people's decisions to dance in fixed couples. TM has assumed reasons for the 'fixing' which can be many (& have been gone into in great detail on the forum in the past). There seem to be many approaches to AT and TM's view is one. If it works, then great, but it isn't the only one. Just because one person's view is as strong as TM's, it doesn't mean that another's view is one that is "watered down".

One of the things I like about KG's teaching on a Monday night at the Dome is his attitude that he has one particular approach to AT. It is certainly not the only one and we should learn from a number of teachers and find what is right for us.

As for learning "watered down" tango, I would assume not at a tango venue, but in other places, fine. I would have thought that much dancing would benefit from tango techniques.

Gadget
11th-May-2006, 12:05 AM
However, if you want to dance with a partner there gotta be rules and conventions about how you move (try to mix a foxtrot and a waltz). And the more people you want to dance with the more rigid the rules gotta be. Oh and if you want to compete there gotta be some reference point.
I don't think so. The only "rules and conventions" are how to lead and how to follow: a good lead should be able to convey what they want the follower to do. A good follow should be able to act and react to the lead.

The more people you want to dance with, the more flexable the rules gotta be - you've got to be able to adapt and move no matter the partner. If you tie it down to "you must lead(/follow) this in this way", then as soon as you change partners or music or deviate from the rules, the dance breaks.

(I agree with the compete line though - but will probably dissagree as to what the 'reference point' should be ;))

robd
11th-May-2006, 08:04 AM
The original posting no longer seems to be available on page 8 of the Camber aftermath thread. Wonder why?

ducasi
11th-May-2006, 08:13 AM
The original posting no longer seems to be available on page 8 of the Camber aftermath thread. Wonder why?
It has been moved to a new thread... http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8488

robd
11th-May-2006, 08:59 AM
It has been moved to a new thread... http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8488

Thanks

And having read the thread, I can see why :what:

TiggsTours
11th-May-2006, 11:16 AM
However, if you want to dance with a partner there gotta be rules and conventions about how you move (try to mix a foxtrot and a waltz). And the more people you want to dance with the more rigid the rules gotta be. Oh and if you want to compete there gotta be some reference point.

I don't think so. The only "rules and conventions" are how to lead and how to follow: a good lead should be able to convey what they want the follower to do. A good follow should be able to act and react to the lead.

The more people you want to dance with, the more flexable the rules gotta be - you've got to be able to adapt and move no matter the partner. If you tie it down to "you must lead(/follow) this in this way", then as soon as you change partners or music or deviate from the rules, the dance breaks.

(I agree with the compete line though - but will probably dissagree as to what the 'reference point' should be ;))
I'm sorry, but I'm with Clive on this one! If you tried to follow Tango in the same way as you follow Lindy it just would never work! In Tango, you need to be quite upright, and lean into each other, so much of the man's lead comes from his chest, and then you need your heads to be so close together. I've only done a couple of very quick tango classes, but even I've picked up that much! Whereas in Lindy you need to get down, you need to get the bounce, and you need the distance from each other. In Lindy it is important that you never break your frame, whereas in jive you break it all the time, in Jive there are plenty of moves where the lady is turned 180 degrees, whereas exactly the same lead in salsa would mean a 360 degree turn.

Its really important to learn just how to lead, and follow, each different dance style individually, as they are all different, if you're not following the basic rules of the dance, then all you're doing is modern jive with the relevant style, it doesn't mean you're dancing the true dance.

MartinHarper
11th-May-2006, 11:37 AM
I understand that TangoMoon may be a teacher...

Yes. I thought this was moderately clear from reading his post, or the excerpt quoted on this thread.

To answer the thread's question, I think for any dance form the aim should be to start off learning to dance it "properly", and leave the rule breaking until reasonably competent. I feel this is especially important when learning a second dance.

JonD
11th-May-2006, 01:01 PM
I'm very much with Clive on this as well. Dance is about freedom and taking different elements from one dance style to another is part of that freedom. But, if you want to master a dance then you must concentrate on it's basic elements. There seems to be some debate as to what those basic elements are - what characterises a dance - and, while I'd largely agree with DavidB's remarks in this discussion (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8444) I'd add that some dances are defined by a style of movement, not just by the tempo or speed of that movement or the music it is performed to. AT has a particular style of movement which would be hard to describe in words, although most of us would recognise it as soon as we saw it. To achieve that style of movement takes effort and technique - it is possible to "ape" the style to some extent but it can only be mastered through study.

As an experiment, I've just suggested to Clive that we dance a Tango together at Negracha tomorrow night using Lindy styling - crouch and all. While we may be dancing to Tango music and using Tango lead/follow techniques, I doubt that any sane observer would describe us as dancing AT. (Indeed, we'll probably get banned from Negracha for life). Still, it'll be fun.

Part of me wants to say "Yes, if you're going to dance AT then damn well learn to dance AT properly" but another part of me says "Don't be so bl**dy pompous". I guess my position is that if someone is having fun with the dance then they should go ahead and do it. I've met people who've been dancing AT for 8 years and still clomp around the floor like a carthorse, I've seen people dancing AT in what I can only descibe as "Apache" fashion and I've seen people dance AT in absolutely sublime milonguero style. They were all dancing AT and were all passionate about the dance and taking huge pleasure from it. I was talking to Eric Jørissen, probably the best European AT teacher, as the "Apache" couple whirled by in what seemed a high-energy wrestling match - his only comment was to raise an eyebrow and say "Well, they're having fun". I'm not going to argue with Eric!

CJ
11th-May-2006, 01:17 PM
As an experiment, I've just suggested to Clive that we dance a Tango together at Negracha tomorrow night using Lindy styling - crouch and all. While we may be dancing to Tango music and using Tango lead/follow techniques, I doubt that any sane observer would describe us as dancing AT. (Indeed, we'll probably get banned from Negracha for life). Still, it'll be fun.


Would two men dancing together be such an afront to the Argentinian sense of masculinity that you may well end up getting shot for your indescretions!!:rofl:

JonD
11th-May-2006, 01:29 PM
Would two men dancing together be such an afront to the Argentinian sense of masculinity that you may well end up getting shot for your indescretions!!
Nah, that wouldn't worry them - guys dancing together is much more normal in AT than in MJ. It's how the dance evolved - there were hordes of male labourers in Buenos Aires building railways, docks and such like in the 1890s and precious few women. Legend has it that when you went to the brothel you had to be a good dancer or you didn't stand a chance with the ladies of the night. So guys practiced with guys and then showed off their skills on the dancefloor in the hope they'd get invited to dance with a real, live woman before enjoying a horizontal reprise upstairs.

Mind you, dancing with a guy and sticking my arse out could be a recipe for disaster and lead to pistols being produced. Hmm- Clive can do the "Lindy Tango" with Julie while I take the video!

Gadget
11th-May-2006, 05:54 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm with Clive on this one! If you tried to follow Tango in the same way as you follow Lindy it just would never work! In Tango, you need to be quite upright, and lean into each other, so much of the man's lead comes from his chest, and then you need your heads to be so close together.If I take you into a tango hold and lead from the torso, then you will follow like that because you are a good follow. If I drop the embrace and relax the frame to lead from the hand, then you will mirror it and follow that.

JonD
11th-May-2006, 07:42 PM
If I take you into a tango hold and lead from the torso...
Ballroom Tango? Yes, I can see that - rigid frame, torso lead. AT is a bit different though. If I take a follower who has no AT experience they will not recognise and follow an AT lead from my centre or my invitation to step into a space. OK, I'm not a particularly brilliant AT leader but I can normally lead a follower with a few week's AT experience to do backward and forward ochos at will. I've tried that on some extremely good MJ and ballroom followers, when I haven't explained the principles first, and got nothing more than a confused look! (Mind you, that isn't too unusual with my MJ lead ...)

Clive Long
11th-May-2006, 10:12 PM
If I take you into a tango hold and lead from the torso, then you will follow like that because you are a good follow.
Nice idea, and if you stay still, fine. But it doesn't result in any co-ordinated movement between the dancers. I have tried to lead MJers using a Tango embrace on Tango tracks that appear sometimes at Ashtons, without using a vice-like grip, and failed because ..

a follower who has no AT experience they will not recognise and follow an AT lead from my centre or my invitation to step into a space.
I know one of your pet theories Gadget is that a good enough lead can lead a good enough follower to do any step when they have no background in the dance. A lovely romantic notion, but it is an illusion. However, if they are both enjoying whatever movement results then they are dancing.

Clive

frodo
13th-May-2006, 09:28 PM
Ballroom Tango? Yes, I can see that - rigid frame, torso lead. AT is a bit different though. If I take a follower who has no AT experience they will not recognise and follow an AT lead from my centre or my invitation to step into a space. OK, I'm not a particularly brilliant AT leader but I can normally lead a follower with a few week's AT experience to do backward and forward ochos at will. I've tried that on some extremely good MJ and ballroom followers, when I haven't explained the principles first, and got nothing more than a confused look! (Mind you, that isn't too unusual with my MJ lead ...)Personally given a good follower who hasn't done the dance, I'd much rather try to lead Argentine Tango than Ballroom Tango.


As I understand it Argentine Tango is more improvisational and so doesn't have the same timing and step constraints. I think the posture and hold for the follower is also less strange.

So if I choose to pause here and there, I'm just improvising. Given I'm dancing with a good follower I assume she's well balanced, is ok with dancing fairly close and can follow a part torso-ish lead.

While I wouldn't be dancing close embrace I would have my hand pretty much all the way around the followers upper back and hence quite a bit of control.

Starting with a salida and cross we might do a various walk variations. While not leading ochos at will ( I can't do that anyway ), if the lady has seen them before, and I'd guess the majority of good MJ followers have, I could probably lead them at certain points in the dance.

Somewhat the opposite of not moving together, I've found it particularly enjoyable dancing with the odd good MJ follower new to Tango, I think specifically because of the feeling of moving together, which seems less present in MJ.


I currently think of it as dancing Tango and don't think of it as "Not the true dance", or "Whatever movement that results", though perhaps I shouldn't be.

So, for now, I think I still have a similar opinion to Gadget.

Gadget
16th-May-2006, 09:30 AM
I'll have to wait untill the next Beach Ballroom tango thingie to confirm a couple of things, but my understanding is that the lead is more about timeing in AT than the actual 'lead'. ie. WHEN to lead a movement is ten times more important as the 'how' than it is in MJ.

With a good follower, the less physical (domineering) leading is required. This weekend I danced with a few followers that moved and responded like silk ruffling with a passing. I could lead anything with bearly a breath. I have a feeling that they would follow and pick up the difference with ease.
At the other end of the scale, I can create a ridged frame that will encase the follower and they almost have no choice but to go where led. Relax this and step out of the "torso framed" leading and I can lead from the hands by controlling momentum. {:ping:}

Perhaps this is the difference: MJ leads by controlling the momentum that exists - directing and re-directing... AT leads by creating the momentum and dampening it. So AT is lead more at the start and MJ is lead more in the middle. (It makes sense to me :rolleyes::D)

{Just so I'm understanding right: Ochos - that's crossing over the feet in a walk? right?}

TiggsTours
16th-May-2006, 10:37 AM
I know one of your pet theories Gadget is that a good enough lead can lead a good enough follower to do any step when they have no background in the dance. A lovely romantic notion, but it is an illusion. However, if they are both enjoying whatever movement results then they are dancing.

Clive
:yeah:
A few weeks ago, I was at the Casbah with Groovy Dancer, and we were watching a couple who were dancing really well together to a really good swing track. He was leading brilliantly, she was following brilliantly, they really had the feel of swing about what they were doing, but they weren't doing Lindy. The footwork was all jive, the frame was all jive, they were down and bouncing, but that was about it. It was a great dance, they were dancing, they were doing brilliantly, but they weren't doing Lindy.

Same thing, I can put on a tangoesque feel to my jive, I can do an ocho, I can do some sexy kicky things with my legs, but I can't do tango, would never claim that I could.

Gadget
16th-May-2006, 01:37 PM
:yeah:
A few weeks ago, I was at the Casbah with Groovy Dancer, and we were watching a couple who were dancing really well together to a really good swing track. He was leading brilliantly, she was following brilliantly, they really had the feel of swing about what they were doing, but they weren't doing Lindy. The footwork was all jive, the frame was all jive, they were down and bouncing, but that was about it. It was a great dance, they were dancing, they were doing brilliantly, but they weren't doing Lindy.

Same thing, I can put on a tangoesque feel to my jive, I can do an ocho, I can do some sexy kicky things with my legs, but I can't do tango, would never claim that I could.:confused: OK: Tango music is playing. The lead is leading you into some tango (/tangoesque) moves. You are doing sexy things with your legs ( :drool: ) It's led and followed with the 'snap' and 'strut' timing of tango. It's led with a torso frame. Why is it not tango?

It may not be brilliant tango, it may have "jive" influences, but where does the boundary lie between "Tango with Jive influences" and "Jive with Tango influences" ?

TiggsTours
16th-May-2006, 01:59 PM
:confused: OK: Tango music is playing. The lead is leading you into some tango (/tangoesque) moves. You are doing sexy things with your legs ( :drool: ) It's led and followed with the 'snap' and 'strut' timing of tango. It's led with a torso frame. Why is it not tango?

It may not be brilliant tango, it may have "jive" influences, but where does the boundary lie between "Tango with Jive influences" and "Jive with Tango influences" ?
In my mind, Jive with Tango influence or Tango with Jive influence (find that idea really hard to imagine!) doesn't exist, that is called Jango. Tango is tango, simple as that, you can do a fusion of 2 dances, but then you're not dancing one or the other. Modern Jive really covers everything, as it is such a fusion of all dance styles, that's what I like about it, if you go back to traditional jive, that too is not Modern Jive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling MJ, far from it! I think it is the most diverse and flexible form of dance there is! However, it is what it is, and sticking a style of any type of dance into it, doesn't turn it into that dance.

MartinHarper
16th-May-2006, 02:48 PM
At the other end of the scale, I can create a ridged frame that will encase the follower and they almost have no choice but to go where led.

I'd view that as over-leading. Either the lead has to supply additional impetus to compensate for a lack of response, or he has to supply countering leads to various attempts to anticipate. I'm sure that a proficient MJ lead could bully most followers into doing some form of ocho, but if he's not doing that with a Tango lead, then the couple are not dancing Tango, or at least not good Tango.

Half the point of different dances is that they feel different, and if a conversion becomes forced (because either lead or follow is not a tango dancer), then I think you'll lose that.


Where does the boundary lie between "Tango with Jive influences" and "Jive with Tango influences"?

Who would teach or dance Tango with Jive influences?

jiveknight
16th-May-2006, 08:33 PM
For what its worth I have done only two AT lessons. The first I found frustrating the second I loved. I wish I had time to do it more regularly and obviously that would be best, but I enjoy it and it it helped my other dancing somehow, (I guess having to sort of re-take control of my body anew and move in such a different way to my jive and swing). Thus, I shall do it as much as I can and enjoy it when I do. :grin:

Like when I took a flying lesson, wow! I'd love to carry on with that, but its worth doing it when you can too if you don't have the money and/or time.

:clap:

JonD
17th-May-2006, 12:04 AM
There appears to be a misconception that AT is led from the torso or with a rigid frame. My understanding is that it shouldn't be: I've just got back from a class where I was reminded of that. (I've just been trying to lead partners, who have been dancing AT about 6 months, into boleos with both my arms behind my back. It was Ruth's way of reminding me not to use either arm in the lead - and I can vouch for the fact that it's not easy!)

I can't really describe how an AT lead works in words. It comes from the centre of the body but is founded on "intention" rather than a pure physical lead. The frame is fluid, going from close embrace to open embrace as the music and the mood dictates. The leader quite frequently "steps under" his frame and at other times will invite the follower to step into a space simply by creating that space. One of the exercises we were doing tonight, to encourage the follower to keep their working leg loose, was to lead check steps with the follower holding the leader's hips (leader with his hands behind his back). That isn't easy either - if you step back there is nothing for the follower to lean on as her leg swings forward so your hips have to be forward and, at the same time, create an impulsion that draws the follower toward them and then reverse that impulsion to send the leg back - see, I can't explain it!

The long and the short is that it isn't like an MJ lead and wouldn't be recognised by a follower who has had no exposure to AT, no matter how good they are. Julie and I quite frequently bring AT into our Jive but we are switching between the styles rather than melding them. If you teach AT figures - ocho, volcada, gancho, whatever - with an MJ lead then you aren't teaching AT any more than an AT dancer using an AT lead to get into a basket is dancing MJ.


Half the point of different dances is that they feel different, and if a conversion becomes forced (because either lead or follow is not a tango dancer), then I think you'll lose that.
I totally agree with that - nicely put.


Who would teach or dance Tango with Jive influences?
I've seen Tango Nuevo dancers incorporating MJ type moves and it looks brilliant. On one memorable occasion, Julie and I did the same and really mixed it up to an eTango track. Just for that track it really worked and felt great and wonderfully powerful. I don't think it looked too bad either because, as the track finished, a couple of people nearby started applauding! (It's never happened since - just one of "those dances" that are like gold dust in the memory).

I agree with jiveknight - even if you can't devote the time to learning AT comprehensively it can bring a lot to MJ and the opposite is also true. Both dances have the wonderful freedom of being truly improvisatory. If anything, MJ provides more freedom as it isn't constrained by a particular style of movement and MJ can be just as subtle as AT if you want it to be. They're both great!

Little Monkey
17th-May-2006, 12:16 AM
Must say I agree with Clive and JonD on this subject!

I'm only a beginner at tango, and wish that one day I'll be able to master this absolutely wonderful dance!

So far there's been lots of discussion about how tango is lead - from the torso, shoulders, chest? Rigid frame or not? Etc etc etc...... One thing I've picked up from my limited tango experience, is that in tango, the man will invite the lady to move, and it's up to the lady to do so. It's not forced, and it's certainly not rigid! I have great difficulty trying to follow a tango lead who's got a background in MJ, and who'll lead with his hands, or be too rigid and forceful! Tango should be smooth but passionate, but never forceful or rigid.

Anyway, what would I know...

Any good tango leads going to Southport? I desperately need some practice! Please take pity on a beginner...

LM :flower:

The Passion Harem
24th-May-2006, 07:06 PM
:respect: the power of the torso.

KatieR
25th-May-2006, 09:08 AM
I'm sorry, but I'm with Clive on this one! If you tried to follow Tango in the same way as you follow Lindy it just would never work! In Tango, you need to be quite upright, and lean into each other, so much of the man's lead comes from his chest, and then you need your heads to be so close together.

Why on Earth would you be comparing a Tango lead with a Lindy lead in the first place? The two are such different dances I dont understand why you would compare them in the first place.

Also, it depends on the embrace as to how close your embrace, if you dance close embrace then your faces can almost touch, in fact sometimes they do, but you can also use an open embrace as well. Being short, a close embrace is not always the best way for me to Tango. You dont have to be pushing into each other, its not a fight, you just use your 5 points of contact and keep your connection rather than force your partner around the floor. Tango is so different to things like MJ and West Coast in that you need to be more in tune with your partners energy rather than feeling a really obvious lead.

pmjd
30th-May-2006, 06:57 PM
I'm only a beginner at tango..

So far there's been lots of discussion about how tango is lead - from the torso, shoulders, chest? Rigid frame or not? Etc etc etc...... One thing I've picked up from my limited tango experience, is that in tango, the man will invite the lady to move, and it's up to the lady to do so. It's not forced, and it's certainly not rigid! I have great difficulty trying to follow a tango lead who's got a background in MJ, and who'll lead with his hands, or be too rigid and forceful! Tango should be smooth but passionate, but never forceful or rigid.



If only I could be as good a beginner as you:flower:

Having done MJ for a while it'll take me a good bit of unlearning about where from and how to lead properly in Tango. I know that's one of the main problems I have, getting the right flexibility in leading Tango, I can see how it should work but just have to relax and let it flow rather than trying to force it and allow things to move at the right pace. Quite a contrast to MJ where it's more a case of you telling your partner rather than inviting.

Awell practice makes perfect, see you on Wednesday

David Bailey
6th-June-2006, 11:21 AM
Getting back to the poll - if Tango could only be done "properly", how would anyone ever get to know and love it?

It's like saying "babies should walk properly or not at all" :rolleyes:

Some experienced AT dancers and teachers fall into the classic trap of assuming everyone knows what they know.


Should you only do Tango, if you're going to embrace it fully, or from another direction, is there any point teaching watered down (but more immediately accessible) Argentine Tango.
It's an interesting question - AT teaching technique does tend to vary widely from what I can tell. Some AT teachers teach almost all patterns (or form), some teach almost all technique. I have my own pet names for the former category...

The trouble is that if you don't know any better, form-based learning looks like more fun, and seems to teach you much more (so it's more popular and lucrative). But then you go to a Milonga and realise you know nothing. :sad:

Lynn
6th-June-2006, 01:28 PM
Some AT teachers teach almost all patterns (or form), some teach almost all technique. I have my own pet names for the former category...

The trouble is that if you don't know any better, form-based learning looks like more fun, and seems to teach you much more (so it's more popular and lucrative). But then you go to a Milonga and realise you know nothing. :sad: I know that feeling!

My local class is very much form based, though there is technique. That works as there are no practicas or milongas for us to dance at - but when I had to try to follow at Southport I was really struggling. :(

David Bailey
4th-November-2008, 01:18 PM
Ah, this thread is an oldie-but-goodie. Tangomoon, blimey...

I've kind of modified my views on this - well, developed them, really - over the past couple of years.

I think that the so-called "Jive with a Tango twist" type of classes have got a bad name amongst some people, in that they've often been classes which have a lot of moves and no technique. Frankly, the class Debbie Atwood did at Storm last year - whilst well-taught - was a bit like this.

Now, some teachers in MJ have taken what I think is the right approach, which is to simply teach Tango, but to be aware that their audience may well come from a Modern Jive background; so there's likely to be a specific set of challenges and conventions to address when teaching (the embrace, the tendencies of leaders to wave their arms, the tendencies of followers to not actually follow, etc.). Amir, Sugarfoot, and Marc & Rachel are good examples of this approach.

I'm not saying that dances such as Jango are unachievable, just that to be able to fuse any two dances, I think you need to first be conversant in both of the foundation dances.

So, it's probably wrong to teach "Jive Tango" as a stepping stone from Jive to Tango, but there's nothing wrong in considering your audience requirements when teaching Tango to Jivers.

Not surprisingly, there's a lot of stuff on my site about this sort of thing. For example. I did an article about this a while back, here:
From Modern Jive to Tango - Social (http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Gettingstarted/Technique.html)

ant
4th-November-2008, 03:01 PM
originally Posted by David Bailey
.....Now, some teachers in MJ have taken what I think is the right approach, which is to simply teach Tango


I think the important thing is how a class is billed and not whether it is a pure Tango or Tango fusion class.

If as in Debbie Attwoods case it was MJ with a taste of Tango and that is what you get, I do not see what the problem is. I have attended some of these classes recently,meaning I have I little more knowledge on the technique now and I do get a bit hung up on the lack of techique but I think that is my problem not a problem of this type of class.

Where it is billed as a Tango class per se, accepted that you take into account your audience, and you do not get a proper technique class, then I think that is a big problem.

Conversely where a class is billed as a fusion class and you get a technical class only on that dance that is also a problem. I think this is the case with Amir these days. I found his original Jango workshops exactly as billed but his current workshops are purely Tango classes and they are not billed that way. This may well be for the reasons DB stated



Origianlly psoted by David Bailey
I'm not saying that dances such as Jango are unachievable, just that to be able to fuse any two dances, I think you need to first be conversant in both of the foundation dances.



Surely the right approach is to follow what you bill a class to be and then let the customers make up their own mind.

That begs the question should fusion classes be taught at all and I think they should.

Jay Jay
4th-November-2008, 03:15 PM
Just to get my two penneth worth in...I am a complete novice at Tango, just dabbled a little really, but I believe you cannot run before you can walk.

I was lucky to have an intense 'practica' with a very patient Ant before Berko officially started last Sunday, I found it invaluable. He was able to show and tell me very basic simple things that I wasn't aware of, perhaps boring for him but such a great help to me.

What I am trying to get across is that although I attended a 'A Taste Of Tango' a while back, I did come out feeling more confident than I should of done if that makes sense, I was so totally unaware of the technicalities that are involved in order to get the movements right.

Rachel
4th-November-2008, 03:27 PM
I think the important thing is how a class is billed and not whether it is a pure Tango or Tango fusion class.Absolutely! It is normally not the teachers themselves who write the advertising blurb for workshops or weekender classes. So they need to be very clear about communicating exactly what the class is about to the person writing it. It has also got to be the teachers' responsibility to carefully check how it's been advertised and teach accordingly.


That begs the question should fusion classes be taught at all and I think they should.Again, I agree. There is definitely a market for fusion classes - sometimes a 'flavour' is all people want, in order to be able to adapt their modern jive when a suitable track comes on. Which is great. Other times, it will give them the interest to look at taking things further and trying out the more 'pure' classes. Which is even better!

Rachel

Rachel
4th-November-2008, 03:29 PM
I was lucky to have an intense 'practica' with a very patient Ant before Berko officially started last Sunday, I found it invaluable. He was able to show and tell me very basic simple things that I wasn't aware of, perhaps boring for him but such a great help to me.You looked great doing it!
R. x

David Bailey
4th-November-2008, 03:30 PM
I think the important thing is how a class is billed and not whether it is a pure Tango or Tango fusion class.
I guess mainly I'm profoundly unconvinced of the ultimate value of a "fusion" class as a stepping-stone. Basically, I don't think it really works; it's often marketed as "put some style into your Modern Jive with Tango" or whatever, but in truth all that usually means is - at best - learning a lunge or similar.

Personally I think that the best way to add Tango style to MJ is to learn Tango.


That begs the question should fusion classes be taught at all and I think they should.
Depends on what you're trying to achieve with them.

I do understand the theory - if you can hook a class into something your audience knows already, it gives them a "comfort blanket" feeling.

But even Amir - who's spent far more time on fusion teaching than anyone - is now moving towards teaching more pure AT and less Jango.

ant
4th-November-2008, 03:33 PM
What I am trying to get across is that although I attended a 'A Taste Of Tango' a while back, I did come out feeling more confident than I should of done if that makes sense, I was so totally unaware of the technicalities that are involved in order to get the movements right.

I think that is the danger of these taster workshops in other dance forms (as opposed to a fusion class). When you attend these taster classes they rarely tell you either in the workshop advert or in the class that this is just a very small part of 100's of hours of learning in order to get some real grasp of the dance.

Slightly off topic but probabally still relevant. There is a workshop being advertised in the teaching of Latin and Ballroom to last for four hours. Admittedly it does not list all the dances being taught. However I cannot see how any MJer of average ability is going to be taught the BASICS OF LATIN AND BALLROMM in 4 hours. This workshop is not even billed as a taster class.

Rachel
4th-November-2008, 03:38 PM
What I am trying to get across is that although I attended a 'A Taste Of Tango' a while back, I did come out feeling more confident than I should of done if that makes sense, I was so totally unaware of the technicalities that are involved in order to get the movements right.


I guess mainly I'm profoundly unconvinced of the ultimate value of a "fusion" class as a stepping-stone. Basically, I don't think it really works; it's often marketed as "put some style into your Modern Jive with Tango" or whatever, but in truth all that usually means is - at best - learning a lunge or similar.Oh right - I see what you're both saying now. And yes, I think I agree. I don't necessarily think fusion classes should be used as a stepping stone, because you simply won't learn the required techniques that you need.

However, I still maintain that there is a very valid market for fusion classes as a means of flavouring your modern jive. And I see nothing wrong with that at all.

And if it does give people the impetuous to think, yes, I like this kind of music and these movements, it's great to think that they might take it further. As long, as you say, they don't have any great expectations that they have already learnt the basics from the fusion class.

If you see what I mean ...
R.

Jay Jay
4th-November-2008, 03:42 PM
I think that is the danger of these taster workshops in other dance forms (as opposed to a fusion class). When you attend these taster classes they rarely tell you either in the workshop advert or in the class that this is just a very small part of 100's of hours of learning in order to get some real grasp of the dance.


That aside (and what I said in my earlier post), what the taster class did give me was the knowledge that this was a dance I really did want to get in to...so that in itself served a very helpful purpose for me....so just another 98 hrs to go :) .......

David Bailey
4th-November-2008, 03:46 PM
Slightly off topic but probabally still relevant. There is a workshop being advertised in the teaching of Latin and Ballroom to last for four hours. Admittedly it does not list all the dances being taught. However I cannot see how any MJer of average ability is going to be taught the BASICS OF LATIN AND BALLROMM in 4 hours. This workshop is not even billed as a taster class.

If this is the one in Swindon:
Ceroc Live - News (http://www.ceroclive.com/?page=3380)

Then they're "only" covering Waltz, Rumba and Quickstep. Admittedly, that's a strange combination of dances, but it's not like they're teaching 10 dances.

Personally, if I were teaching ballroom to a MJ audience, I'd go for Cha Cha and Jive, then maybe Waltz and Rumba. In other words, mainly Latin.

ant
4th-November-2008, 04:11 PM
Oh right - I see what you're both saying now. And yes, I think I agree. I don't necessarily think fusion classes should be used as a stepping stone, because you simply won't learn the required techniques that you need.
R.

Hi Rachel
Jay Jay was referring to a Taster class. In theory I see no problems in a taster class as a way of introducing MJers to other dance forms. So long as the customer is given the extent to which the workshop will be helpful to them. I think a Taster is exactly what it says it is a very simple introduction into the dance and it should be made clear, in terms of being able to dance that dance it has very little benefit unless you continue to learn that dance and if you wish to continue that dance then you will need to spend 100's of hours perfecting it. Wishful thinking? if you think so DB must be right.

I do think that fusion classes can be beneficial to MJers and come into a different category but again the information on the class should be very clear, just as your Cuban Blue workshops were. So long as the workshop is using another dance just to give some variety to the MJ content and not as a learning basis for that dance then they do give us MJers new and sometimes very interesting moves. I think promoters can give this information in there advertising and still have a successful attendance.

I think the problem is as I stated above. MJers are willing to embace the learning of most dances. However alot of these classes and workshops are totally oversold and it is the misconception thus created by the promoters of these workshops that causes the problem, not the content of the workshops or classes neccessarily.

Rachel
4th-November-2008, 04:20 PM
Hi Rachel
Jay Jay was referring to a Taster class. ...Oh God, yes you're right - taster classes, fusion classes, stepping stones, .... I'm getting myself confused here! I came on the forum because I've been useless at focussing on work today. Now it's probably best if I bow out of these forum discussions and get back on with the work again - suddenly it seems so much less complicated.

Anyway - I agree with all of you. I think ... :wink:
R.x

philsmove
4th-November-2008, 04:21 PM
One word of advice, if any one wants an introduction to Tango

Do it at a proper Tango class

In my experience The “Tasters” given at MJ Classes will not give you the taste at all

To get the taste you need to witness a real Milonga or Practica

ant
4th-November-2008, 04:24 PM
If this is the one in Swindon:
Ceroc Live - News (http://www.ceroclive.com/?page=3380)

Then they're "only" covering Waltz, Rumba and Quickstep. Admittedly, that's a strange combination of dances, but it's not like they're teaching 10 dances.

Personally, if I were teaching ballroom to a MJ audience, I'd go for Cha Cha and Jive, then maybe Waltz and Rumba. In other words, mainly Latin.

David it not the one in Swindon.

Yes I agree with the Cha Cha Cha and maybe Rumba can help slow blues if your partner is conversant.

I am not sure about any other Latin and Ballroom from a direct benefit point of view, unless you include Salsa.
However from an indirect point of view I think all the Latin and Ballroom disciplines are in my opinion helpful.

Perhaps the topic for another thread?

Jay Jay
4th-November-2008, 04:44 PM
Oh God, yes you're right - taster classes, fusion classes, stepping stones, .... I'm getting myself confused here! I came on the forum because I've been useless at focussing on work today. Now it's probably best if I bow out of these forum discussions and get back on with the work again - suddenly it seems so much less complicated.

Anyway - I agree with all of you. I think ... :wink:
R.x

Rach.....the taster class that I did with Marc & yourself was exactly what it said it was going to be.........Ceroc with a taste of Tango....it was a lovely day well spent and as I said gave me more than a taste for Tango, for which I am now trying to expand on. No way did I expect to come out being able to dance the light fantastic from it, that is now up to me to pursue.

ant
4th-November-2008, 05:13 PM
One word of advice, if any one wants an introduction to Tango

Do it at a proper Tango class

In my experience The “Tasters” given at MJ Classes will not give you the taste at all

To get the taste you need to witness a real Milonga or Practica


Whatever route you take in your decision to learn Tango,

I think the best bit of advise (or warning) is be prepared to spends 100's of hours learning the damn thing. Its a long haul which is sometimes great and sometimes very fustrating and generally more difficult to get a real handle on compared to MJ.

I also think that goes for the other main partner dances us MJers are inclined to learn, the ones I am most aware of being Latin and Ballroom, Salsa, Lindy and WCS.

And by all means go to a fusion class as long they are using the other dance to give variety to your MJ, don't think of it in any way as learning that other dance.

Trouble
4th-November-2008, 06:03 PM
Me and Scarface are going to rockbottoms in May with Ruby Red who is an addicted tangoer and i believe the lovely Ant is attending also so we will be spoilt for help i hope. We are going to dip our toes into it for the first time then as its an MJ/tango weekend i beleive.

Quite looking forward to it cause when i see David Bailey and Lory doing it.... i think wow that looks great.... ..xx :flower:

Jay Jay
4th-November-2008, 06:32 PM
No way did I expect to come out being able to dance the light fantastic from it, that is now up to me to pursue.

:rofl:meant 'the light fandango', my fingers are quicker than my brain it seems........either that or I am turning in to my mother :eek:

ant
4th-November-2008, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by David Bailey http://1.2.3.10/bmi/www.cerocscotland.com/forum/images/orange/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/land-1000-dances/8483-should-tango-done-properly-not-all-post513470.html#post513470)
If this is the one in Swindon:
Ceroc Live - News (http://www.ceroclive.com/?page=3380)

Originally Posted by ant
David it not the one in Swindon.


Sorry DB, I have now had a chance to look at the Swindon website, its the same workshop but different franchise.

I was referring to www.clubceroc.com (http://www.clubceroc.com)

You will see from that website two important pieces of information are missing;

1 details of splitting the workshop into 3 sections
2 a copy of the flyer that would also have given that information.

If you had all the information you could make a much more informed decision on the workshop but I feel that teaching the basics of those three dances in 4 hours is a tall order anyway. I reckon it will take that amount of time just to learn how to move your hips correctly in the Rumba.