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Gus
26th-April-2006, 12:47 PM
In the process of setting up Northwich as a freetstyle venue .. again (must be mad). One of the events we've got slated in is a Blues championship for August ... the only question was what to call it. We started with 'North of England' ... but that sounded a bit limitying ... so we're now toying with things like "The UK Open Blues Championships" ... which of course is MASSIVE oversell .... but thats never stopped anyone else :cool: .

Before we get carried away ... what 'true' Blues champs are there? I know that Beach Boogie do one but I was told there was only about had a dozen or so serious competitors. True? What else is out there?

Donna
26th-April-2006, 01:34 PM
In the process of setting up Northwich as a freetstyle venue .. again (must be mad).


Woo Hoo!!! :clap: I was wondering who was going to re open it!! Miss that venue already!!! Nice one Gus. :hug:



We started with 'North of England' ... but that sounded a bit limitying ...


Yeah it does. It's better to call it something which allows everybody across the UK to enter. Would be much more fun and a more serious competition.



so we're now toying with things like "The UK Open Blues Championships" ... which of course is MASSIVE oversell .... but thats never stopped anyone else :cool:

i think you should just stick to that. Sounds good.


Before we get carried away ... what 'true' Blues champs are there?


Howard and Nicola? Need to work very hard on blues then if we're to get anywhere. (hey you could teach us a few blues moves. :flower: )

Will
26th-April-2006, 01:49 PM
In the process of setting up Northwich as a freetstyle venue .. again (must be mad). One of the events we've got slated in is a Blues championship for August ... the only question was what to call it. We started with 'North of England' ... but that sounded a bit limitying ... so we're now toying with things like "The UK Open Blues Championships" ... which of course is MASSIVE oversell .... but thats never stopped anyone else :cool: .

Before we get carried away ... what 'true' Blues champs are there?

Man City.

Gus
26th-April-2006, 02:00 PM
Man City.You poor sad deluded fool. Didn't they tell you ... if you are from London then you support Man UTD!

Donna
26th-April-2006, 02:10 PM
You poor sad deluded fool. Didn't they tell you ... if you are from London then you support Man UTD!

:rofl:

LilyB
26th-April-2006, 08:27 PM
You poor sad deluded fool. Didn't they tell you ... if you are from London then you support Man UTD!
:angry: :angry: :angry:

Everybody knows the only true 'Blues' champs are ..... CHELSEA!!! :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :clap: :clap: :clap:

TheTramp
26th-April-2006, 08:32 PM
CHELSEA!!!
CHELSKI!!!

At least you should spell it right! :rolleyes:

Minnie M
26th-April-2006, 09:13 PM
:angry: :angry: :angry:

Everybody knows the only true 'Blues' champs are ..... CHELSEA!!! :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :clap: :clap: :clap:
:rolleyes: eggggs scuse me..........Seagulls (http://www.seagulls.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/0,,10433,00.html) ...............Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeguuuuuuuuuuuuu uuulls :yeah::respect: :worthy: :flower:

TiggsTours
27th-April-2006, 10:56 AM
"The UK Open Blues Championships" Which would be a contradiction in terms. If it is a "Blues" competition, then it is not "Open" which would indicate any dance style can be used.

The Beach Boogie one is called the UK National Aeriels & Blues Championships, which in itself isn't correct, if its UK, then it also includes Northern Ireland, so its not just National which would be the Nation of Great Britain, which doesn't include NI.

The UK Blues Championships sounds good to me, or the National Blues Championships, I guess it depends who you would open the competition to, if you are opening it to everyone, then there is nothing to stop you calling it the World Blues Championships, or the International Blues Championships.

TiggsTours
27th-April-2006, 10:58 AM
:rolleyes: eggggs scuse me..........Seagulls (http://www.seagulls.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/0,,10433,00.html) ...............Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeguuuuuuuuuuuuu uuulls :yeah::respect: :worthy: :flower:
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :respect: Seeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaguuuuuuuuuuulls!!!!!!!:worthy: :clap:

MartinHarper
27th-April-2006, 11:10 AM
The idea of performance blues sounds odd to me. How true is that to the dance form?

Gus
27th-April-2006, 11:35 AM
The idea of performance blues sounds odd to me. How true is that to the dance form?Share the same concern. The point came home when I was trying to explain ten differences of Blues to MJ on a workshop ... its far more internaly focused ... and the essence of it (IMHO) is the feel and connection between the two partners. How you demonstrate that externally I'm not sure.

I remember the last time we ran this comeprition we have Marc and Rachel competing. What they did was an externaly focused dance style, lots of shines, lovely to watch, ineterprested the slower music nicely .... but was it Blues? The judges didnt think so and in the end they weren't placed.:(

Donna
27th-April-2006, 12:17 PM
I remember the last time we ran this comeprition we have Marc and Rachel competing. What they did was an externaly focused dance style, lots of shines, lovely to watch, ineterprested the slower music nicely .... but was it Blues? The judges didnt think so and in the end they weren't placed.:(


Yeah I remember that! Mine and Ste's first comp!!! We got through to final 5 or something like that anyway, and I thought Marc and Rachel had won it easily, but an old couple did didn't they? (All for a big tube of smarties! :rolleyes: ):rofl:

Gus
27th-April-2006, 12:22 PM
(All for a big tube of smarties! :rolleyes: ):rofl:HEY! Don't diss the smarties!!

Donna
27th-April-2006, 12:46 PM
HEY! Don't diss the smarties!!

:blush: sorry, but I wouldn't diss the smarties had the finalists all got a big tube of them, and the winners get a little trophy or something?

Hey what about prizes? Anything in mind?

Gus
27th-April-2006, 01:08 PM
Hey what about prizes? Anything in mind?How about more Smarties? Actualy, considering its a Blues competition, how about a tube of 'Tingle(tm) (http://www.durex.com/cm/productRange.asp?intProdCat=3&intMenuOpen=)' :wink:

Donna
27th-April-2006, 01:12 PM
How about more Smarties? Actualy, considering its a Blues competition, how about a tube of 'Tingle(tm) (http://www.durex.com/cm/productRange.asp?intProdCat=3&intMenuOpen=)' :wink:


:rofl: :rofl: That's brilliant!! :rofl: (cough cough...uuurrr I'm choking on my sandwich!

ducasi
27th-April-2006, 04:51 PM
Which would be a contradiction in terms. If it is a "Blues" competition, then it is not "Open" which would indicate any dance style can be used. "Open" in the sense that anyone can take part? Seems reasonable to me...

The Beach Boogie one is called the UK National Aeriels & Blues Championships, which in itself isn't correct, if its UK, then it also includes Northern Ireland, so its not just National which would be the Nation of Great Britain, which doesn't include NI. "Great Britain" isn't a nation, it's an island. It's possible to think of the UK as a nation, or its constituent parts (England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland) as nations.

TiggsTours
27th-April-2006, 04:56 PM
"Open" in the sense that anyone can take part? Seems reasonable to me...In dance competitions, "Open" usually means open to any type of style, not to any person.

"Great Britain" isn't a nation, it's an island. It's possible to think of the UK as a nation, or its constituent parts as nations.
So you're saying that the UK is the nation, so someone living in Ireland in British, even though they don't live in Britain?

ducasi
27th-April-2006, 05:07 PM
The idea of performance blues sounds odd to me. How true is that to the dance form?
Because of the (usually) slow tempo it becomes easier to get into more interesting (i.e. entertaining) positions. Also the possibilities in doing moves at double-time can also add excitement.

One of the workshops at the recent Beach Ballroom weekend with Val & Dave was on performance blues, and I believe the routine some of us have recently learnt (and some more will learn this weekend) with Trampy would come under the banner of "performance blues". We will also be performing it at the BFG (or, at least, some of us will...)

ducasi
27th-April-2006, 05:12 PM
In dance competitions, "Open" usually means open to any type of style, not to any person. How about the "UK Open Jive Competition" I was at in Blackpool recently?

So you're saying that the UK is the nation, so someone living in Ireland in British, even though they don't live in Britain? In Northern Ireland, yes, they are normally termed British (though sometimes also called Irish, or Northern Irish.) Even though they don't live in Britain.

David Franklin
27th-April-2006, 05:17 PM
In dance competitions, "Open" usually means open to any type of style, not to any person.You sure? That's certainly not my understanding, and looking at the history of the Blackpool Open, for example, you find:

From the Blackpool Dance Festival website
As more and more foreign competitors came to Blackpool, it was decided to organise a small Festival for British competitors only and, in November 1975,the first British Closed Dance Festival was held in the Empress Ballroom. The name has now been changed to the British National Championships.
which seems to support "Open" tying to nationality rather than dance style.

Of course, "open" often refers to professional/amateur status; in the MJ scene, one of the original key differences between the "UK Open Jive Comp" (run by C2D) and the "Ceroc" champs was that the former had an category open to teachers and other professionals.

Gus
27th-April-2006, 05:27 PM
The UK Blues Championships sounds good to me, or the National Blues Championships, I guess it depends who you would open the competition to, if you are opening it to everyone, then there is nothing to stop you calling it the World Blues Championships, or the International Blues Championships.I think thats part of the problem. The credibility of the competition would depend on the quality of dancers taking part and the judges. If I got N&N and Val & Dave as judges (if only :o ) and the likes of Alan & Sarah competing .... then I would feel more comfortable using such a grandious title.

On the other hand ... I suppose everyone has to start somewhere .. maybe IT.. MIGHT .. JUST .. WORK ...(apologies to "Young Frankenstein")

Gadget
27th-April-2006, 09:14 PM
Share the same concern. The point came home when I was trying to explain ten differences of Blues to MJ on a workshop ... its far more internaly focused ... and the essence of it (IMHO) is the feel and connection between the two partners. How you demonstrate that externally I'm not sure.
What were the differences you came up with then?

I have been taught some blues by Gus, Adam, Marc & Rachel, Howard & Nicola, Dave & Val, and I'm sure a couple of others. I'm still trying to work out how it differs from MJ.
My verson of what "blues" is seems to differ from most of these folk - they are more "showcase" and "open" in their dancing. I'm all for contrast to provide interest, but I don't think that conrast from 'open' to 'closed' really works in blues. I think that there is too much stepping away from your partner as 'perperation' for the next move.

To me, one person should always be 'flashlighting' their partner at every point in every move - sometimes both, sometimes swapping between them, but as soon as you break this, then the 'connection' that makes blues "blues" is broken.
I also think that in bluse, if the follower is led to step back then the lead should shadow them rather than mirror them. It keeps the connection and provides a much more 'intemate' dance.

But I'm not a "blues champion" - this is just the way I like dancing blues. {actually, it's just the way I like dancing in general :D:waycool:}

Yogi_Bear
27th-April-2006, 09:34 PM
So, here are ten differences.
1 In blues the music is king - what the dancers do has to, above all, respect the music.
2 In blues the tempos are much, much slower.
3 Blues has a closer and more intimate connection, much as in Argentine tango when danced in close hold.
4 Blues can be fully improvised.
5 Blues has some standard patterns and even moves, but they are not essential elements of dancing blues.
6 Blues allows for a much greater degree of interplay between the dancers.
7 Blues is more grounded.
8 In order to make blues look good you do not necessarily have to do very much at all, certainly not produce varied and complex moves.
9 Blues, more than MJ, emphasises the different roles of the male and female dancers - as does Argentine tango.
10 Blues offers the chance to develop as a dancer beyond the constraints of MJ.

These are of course very much off the cuff and internded to stimulate debate....

Gadget
27th-April-2006, 09:58 PM
These are differences? :confused:

Yogi_Bear
27th-April-2006, 10:25 PM
These are differences? :confused:
Hmm, I think so....or where have I been the last few years?

Gus
28th-April-2006, 12:39 PM
To me, one person should always be 'flashlighting' their partner at every point in every move - sometimes both, sometimes swapping between them, but as soon as you break this, then the 'connection' that makes blues "blues" is broken.Not sure that I agree. What about 'open'Blues moves. The connection does not always have to be thigh to thigh ... its the feel of the dance thats counts, how you pick up the beat and make/allow your partner to interpret that beat. Watch someone like Laura ( as many guys find themselves doing :drool: ) ... she will take the beat and do something wonderfull with her body while the guy takes a 'back seat'. Dont see much flashlighting there.:confused:

Gadget
28th-April-2006, 01:18 PM
Not sure that I agree. What about 'open'Blues moves. The connection does not always have to be thigh to thigh ... its the feel of the dance thats counts, how you pick up the beat and make/allow your partner to interpret that beat. Watch someone like Laura ( as many guys find themselves doing :drool: ) ... she will take the beat and do something wonderfull with her body while the guy takes a 'back seat'. Dont see much flashlighting there.:confused:
I was using the term as I had it explained to me from DavidB: an embedded flashlight in your chest that illuminates your partner.

In this case, you would be focused on her; whole body facing and appreciating - maintaing the connection.

I'm not saying that it has to be thigh to thigh all the time, but what I keep seeing when watching folk 'blues' is close - rock, rock, rock - break - move - close - rock, rock, rock.... It's that "break" that spoils it for me. I have spent many {delightfull} dances trying to work out ways to insert moves and interest without that jarring "oh, a 'move' now" interuption.

Yogi_Bear
28th-April-2006, 03:41 PM
............I'm not saying that it has to be thigh to thigh all the time, but what I keep seeing when watching folk 'blues' is close - rock, rock, rock - break - move - close - rock, rock, rock.... It's that "break" that spoils it for me. I have spent many {delightfull} dances trying to work out ways to insert moves and interest without that jarring "oh, a 'move' now" interuption.
I'm not sure I've understood what you mean here, but I would suggest just trying to follow what the music suggests, and how your partner seems to be interpreting the space you give her, thinking about interest but not necessarily inserting moves, as such.....

TiggsTours
28th-April-2006, 03:51 PM
You sure? That's certainly not my understanding, and looking at the history of the Blackpool Open, for exampleWell, I've been to competitions where people have been disqualified for the style of dance they were doing, as it wasn't an "open" competition, so they had to stick to the style of dance of the competition.

If its a Nationality thing, then sure that makes the UK Open a contradiction in terms too?


And as for being termed British when you don't live in Great Britain, if I was Irish, or from the Isle of Mann or the Channel Islands, I'd complain like crazy!

TiggsTours
28th-April-2006, 03:54 PM
I'm not saying that it has to be thigh to thigh all the time, but what I keep seeing when watching folk 'blues' is close - rock, rock, rock - break - move - close - rock, rock, rock.... It's that "break" that spoils it for me. I have spent many {delightfull} dances trying to work out ways to insert moves and interest without that jarring "oh, a 'move' now" interuption.Sorry, not sure I understood, are you saying you don't like breaks in the music, and you try to dance through them? If so, euuuuuccchhhhh!!!!!! Breaks are what make a dance interesting! :tears:

David Franklin
28th-April-2006, 04:49 PM
If its a Nationality thing, then sure that makes the UK Open a contradiction in terms too?Not really. You said "open" usually referred to dance styles, so I provided two different counter-examples, one where "Open" implied a lack of restriction on nationality, and one where it implied a lack of restriction on professional status.

I am still dubious that "Open" usually means "open to all styles" in dance competitions; I'm not sure I've ever seen it used that way unless as a contrast to specifically qualified style divisions. (e.g. you might have WCS, Lindy, Shag and an "Open" Swing division). Generally the rules of the dance styles are "common" to all the competition categories, in the same sense that the US Tennis Open is open to all competitors, but you're still expected to play tennis, and not, say, golf.

Most relevantly for MJ, this is reflected in the rules of the all 4 main competitions:

C2D Advanced Category (No open category, but advanced is described as open to all): 70% modern jive is required.
Ceroc Open Category: The dance must be recognisable as a modern jive such as Ceroc.
LeRoc 2000 Open Category: 70% of dancing must be recognisable as Modern Jive.
Britroc Open Category: The dance must be recognised as modern jive with a clearly demonstrated leader and follower.

Chicklet
28th-April-2006, 05:26 PM
.

If its a Nationality thing, then sure that makes the UK Open a contradiction in terms too?

AFAIK UK Open in many sports (and other competitions) usually means held in the UK but Open to allcomers, (think Wimbledon, Golf etc..). UK closed has historically often meant participation allowed by invitation or only if a member of a particular (set of) club (s).

David Franklin
28th-April-2006, 05:33 PM
AFAIK UK Open in many sports (and other competitions) usually means held in the UK but Open to allcomers, (think Wimbledon, Golf etc..). UK closed has historically often meant participation allowed by invitation or only if a member of a particular (set of) club (s).Good point that I missed - thanks.

ducasi
28th-April-2006, 07:10 PM
And as for being termed British when you don't live in Great Britain, if I was Irish, or from the Isle of Mann or the Channel Islands, I'd complain like crazy! Sorry for continuing this off-topic discussion...

If you are from Hawaii, you're both Hawaiian, plus American, despite not actually living in America.

This is because there's no word to describe being from the USA besides "American".

Likewise, there's no work to describe being from the UK besides "British".

Folks from the Isle of Mann and the Channel Islands aren't "British" as it is commonly understood.

Strangely enough the residents of the Falkland Islands call themselves "British". :)

Those from the Republic of Ireland are never called British.

There have been more than complaints over whether those from Northern Ireland are "British" or not.

Gadget
28th-April-2006, 07:11 PM
'm not sure I've understood what you mean here, but I would suggest just trying to follow what the music suggests, and how your partner seems to be interpreting the space you give her, thinking about interest but not necessarily inserting moves, as such.....
There ain't much (physical) space in a close blues hold for much interpreting :wink: But I get what you mean - which is why I have a slightly different view of 'blues' than most teachers of the subject:
Most "moves" {I've seen} taught in blues are taken from the standard Ceroc lexicon - they all start with a step back. So you go from a 'blues hold' into a step back, into a move, into a step back and back into the blues hold. Better dancers/teachers eliminate the last step back and blend the move into a blues hold, but this first step back seems to be ingrained :(


Sorry, not sure I understood, are you saying you don't like breaks in the music, and you try to dance through them? If so, euuuuuccchhhhh!!!!!! Breaks are what make a dance interesting! :tears:
oops - sorry::blush: I wasn't thinking in terms of what the music was doing, but what the dancers were doing - "break" in this context means breaking away from your partner or breaking away from the 'close' move.

Normally the dancers 'break' in the phrase before a musical break so that they can do something with it other than freeze or be limited in the pose they strike.

{I look forward to a dance some time where I can show you just how interesting the breaks can be :devil:}

DavidB
28th-April-2006, 07:59 PM
Likewise, there's no work to describe being from the UK besides "British".
Yukish?

Lynn
29th-April-2006, 03:00 PM
And as for being termed British when you don't live in Great Britain, if I was Irish, or from the Isle of Mann or the Channel Islands, I'd complain like crazy!:innocent: And if you called some people in NI Irish, you could find yourself in a lot of trouble. :rolleyes:

Note - Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are two different countries. And I'm not getting into the politics of it all...

But yes, have any comps inclusive of NI please, you never know, give us a few years and we might even have some competitors!

Gus
29th-April-2006, 03:02 PM
My take on it all is that the event was named "Open N West Blues Champs" ... then anyone from across the country could enter, dancing Blues. If It was just "N West Blues Champs" then only dancers from the N West would be able to enter. Does that make some kind of sense?

DavidB
29th-April-2006, 03:14 PM
My take on it all is that the event was named "Open N West Blues Champs" ... then anyone from across the country could enter, dancing Blues. If It was just "N West Blues Champs" then only dancers from the N West would be able to enter. Does that make some kind of sense?
If it was the Closed North West Blues, then only people from the NW could enter. If you just called it the NW Blues champs, you make the rules up as you go along.

LilyB
29th-April-2006, 08:10 PM
.... One of the events we've got slated in is a Blues championship for August ... the only question was what to call it. We started with 'North of England' ... but that sounded a bit limitying ... so we're now toying with things like "The UK Open Blues Championships" ... which of course is MASSIVE oversell .... but thats never stopped anyone else :cool: .

Before we get carried away ... what 'true' Blues champs are there? I know that Beach Boogie do one but I was told there was only about had a dozen or so serious competitors. True? What else is out there?

There is no reason why you cannot call your competition "The UK Open Blues Championships". I am not aware of any other competition of that name (but I would advise you to check). The competition at Beach Boogie is called the "UK National Blues Championships".

I for one would be delighted to see a competition aimed at promoting Blues dancing. If you intend to label it as a "UK Open", then I would expect you to promote it not only nation-wide but abroad as well. Clearly that would depend on the resources you have at your disposal, including the availability of prizes that are likely to attract the best dancers in this genre (of sorts). Of course there is no requirement at all to offer generous prizes, but it would clearly de-value the "UK Open" title if top dancers throughout the country (and beyond) are not attracted to compete.

Another challenge would be in drafting the rules and regulations for the competition. I tend to agree with Nigel Anderson's definition of Blues dancing as "a fusion of ideas from every dance style", where the "tempo and space given by the music allows a freedom of interpretation and improvisation”. This would clearly include West Coast Swing, which is very often (but not exclusively) danced to Blues music. It may be yet another massive opportunity to promote WCS in the UK:clap: . With good organisation and marketing, I think you may have a winner on your hands! (sorry for the pun:sick: )

Yogi_Bear
29th-April-2006, 11:17 PM
.........Most "moves" {I've seen} taught in blues are taken from the standard Ceroc lexicon - they all start with a step back. So you go from a 'blues hold' into a step back, into a move, into a step back and back into the blues hold. Better dancers/teachers eliminate the last step back and blend the move into a blues hold, but this first step back seems to be ingrained :(

You seem to be describing going from a close blues hold to more open dancing, which may or maynot be blues, and back into close blues hold. Blues teachers often use this to help people see how they could incorporate some blues into their conventional MJ routines. But there is no reason necessarily to step back or rock step. If you step anywhere you could be stepping forwards or sideways. Certainly the look and feel of blues can only benefit from eliminating unnecessary stepping back - it only serves to separate the couple, not bring them together.

Baruch
29th-April-2006, 11:38 PM
Maybe use the term "blues dance" rather than just "blues" in the title so you don't get odd looks from bemused "competitors" carrying beat-up old guitars and sporting names like "Blind Dog Robertson". :D

spindr
30th-April-2006, 03:12 PM
One thought would be to have an "integrated" championship.

Instead of randomly mixing competitors in the preceding rounds -- you split the preceding rounds by the competitors location.

E.g. English, Welsh, etc. rounds.
Declare each first place as the English, Welsh, etc. winners

Then take the winners from those and dance them off in a final "UK-wide" round.

Upside: it gets more interesting and there are more winners :)
Downside: you get to buy more trophys.

SpinDr

RogerR
30th-April-2006, 03:39 PM
Find the principal judges, and ask them, after all they should be leaders in the dance form.

Gadget
30th-April-2006, 08:06 PM
You seem to be describing going from a close blues hold to more open dancing, which may or maynot be blues, and back into close blues hold. Blues teachers often use this to help people see how they could incorporate some blues into their conventional MJ routines. But I always see it in blues dancing - not just the teaching. :(
Performance style "Open" moves and displays to the audience I don't think should be a part of 'blues' dancing, but again, I always see it in blues dancing. But in saying that, how can you have a competition without this?