Comb vs Turn.

[BobbyA]

I've noticed more recently that i have trouble doing combs on ladies. They seem to turn instead of letting me comb them. Now this doesn't happen on a normal comb, or a left handed comb. It happens more when i'm in the middle of a move such as say a basket and I want to comb with my left hand. How do you stop the lady from turning and actually execute the comb?

[TheTramp]

I've noticed more recently that i have trouble doing combs on ladies. They seem to turn instead of letting me comb them. Now this doesn't happen on a normal comb, or a left handed comb. It happens more when i'm in the middle of a move such as say a basket and I want to comb with my left hand. How do you stop the lady from turning and actually execute the comb?

Nail her feet to the floor.

[BobbyA]

I'll have to bring the hammer with me to my freestyles.. hehehe I'm sure they'd love for me to bring one of those to hammersmith on sunday!!! heheh..
"whats this hammer for?"
"Oh its for the dancing.. Honest!!!"
"I think not sonny jim!!"

:)

[Ghost]

Had the same problem with the basket carress. I think the lead is actually wrong :blush: as it does imply the lady should turn. I do it this way.

Start the basket normally, as you pull her into the side, and your left hand starts to go above her head, don't take it the whole way up, but settle for about an inch or so higher than her forehead (but still about 6 inces in front). Lead her back into the basket with your left hand still in this position and with your right hand apply some pressure to her hip (kinda cinch her in to imply - "stay put"). Then you should be able to do the comb without her turning.

You can do it "properly" if the lady knows the move, much in the same way that ladies who know the neckbreak signal don't try and "high 5" you, whereas those who don't often will :worthy:

Hope that helps,
Christopher

[ducasi]

What are you doing with your right hand? When you're wanting to do fancy things such as unexpected combs with one hand, it helps if you have a good connection and can lead any movement you want or not with the other.

[BobbyA]

You can do it "properly" if the lady knows the move, much in the same way that ladies who know the neckbreak signal don't try and "high 5" you, whereas those who don't often will :worthy:


Heheh.. never noticed that one.. I'll keep an eye out.. That sounds like a fun move in itself.. The high 5! hehehe :)

Thanks for the tips. I'll try them out.

[BobbyA]

I also have no problem doing the move if the woman knows how to do it.. :)

[spindr]

There is a subtle difference here from a lot of other moves -- in that you are trying to move the lady's arm without moving her. In that sense you almost want to lose any "connection" (tension / compression) in that arm. Use a soft, slow, subtle lead -- so that the lady's elbow doesn't engage. Lead the hand, in a "lift and drop" -- and try to lead the hands along the exact centre line of her head (assuming facing square on to you).

You *could* change the handhold so that you hold the lady's hand gently between your thumb and forefinger -- think chopsticks. Then lead the lady's hand close to her head -- if you're feeling brave let her fingers literally comb her hair. Obviously, faster music would mean a higher comb with more space and a greater safety margin.

Other than that -- find a better follower that doesn't anticipate :devil:

SpinDr

[Franck]

There is a subtle difference here from a lot of other moves -- in that you are trying to move the lady's arm without moving her. In that sense you almost want to lose any "connection" (tension / compression) in that arm. Use a soft, slow, subtle lead -- so that the lady's elbow doesn't engage. The problem for followers is that they can't (easily) tell if you're trying to lose the connection to lead a comb, or if you're simply losing the connection (as many men do regularly) and therefore start compensating. Most women, will usually recognize any move each man does regularly and 'learn' to anticipate correctly.

The trick here is not to 'lose' the connection, but to transfer it elsewhere. In the above scenario, I would recommend creating a good connection with your other hand on her hip (shoulder or back would work too), once you've created a new connection, you can release the connection from your leading hand and create any desired flourish.

I am teaching a whole class on that very topic at the BFG (Playing with the connection), so anyone interested in more details can book now :wink:

[spindr]

The trick here is not to 'lose' the connection, but to transfer it elsewhere. In the above scenario, I would recommend creating a good connection with your other hand on her hip (shoulder or back would work too), once you've created a new connection, you can release the connection from your leading hand and create any desired flourish.
Pragmatically this is a solution -- but leaders shouldn't need to do that. A good MJ follower should be able to follow a mix of consecutive turns and combs -- using just a single handhold as a lead.

:devil: Try it tonight lads: return, comb, comb, return, return, comb -- and see what happens :devil:

On a related note -- haven't managed to work out why so many MJ followers feel that they need to dance a spin -- when the only lead was to throw their hand vertically upwards and release.

Most salsa followers seem to manage. I can only conclude that it's down to MJ teaching or anticipation, i.e. my hands above head height therefore I must dance a spin / turn.

SpinDr

[Franck]

Pragmatically this is a solution -- but leaders shouldn't need to do that. A good MJ follower should be able to follow a mix of consecutive turns and combs -- using just a single handhold as a lead.
Indeed, they will if led properly. Transferring the connection to another hand(as I described above) is easier, but connection can be created with many different body parts, or indeed with just eye contact, so there are many ways to switch connection points (single-handed or otherwise) to achieve the desired result.

[Msfab]

Or how about just not doing a comb?:whistle:

[BobbyA]

Or how about just not doing a comb?:whistle:

Lol now why didn't i think of that.

PS that BFG looks great. Shame its a bit too far and all the costs just add up too much. :(

[TheTramp]

Lol now why didn't i think of that.

PS that BFG looks great. Shame its a bit too far and all the costs just add up too much. :(

Hey....

I came up here from Cardiff. Why can't you?? :rolleyes:


(Though, possibly for a shorter time!)

[Ghost]

On a related note -- haven't managed to work out why so many MJ followers feel that they need to dance a spin -- when the only lead was to throw their hand vertically upwards and release.

They're told to: I've heard this from both taxis and teachers - it's to help us leads not need to "porridge stir" apparently.

Take care,
Christopher

[doc martin]

On a related note -- haven't managed to work out why so many MJ followers feel that they need to dance a spin -- when the only lead was to throw their hand vertically upwards and release.

Most salsa followers seem to manage. I can only conclude that it's down to MJ teaching or anticipation, i.e. my hands above head height therefore I must dance a spin / turn.

SpinDr
I know I am going to regret asking this, but why are you throwing the follower's hand up in the air? Are you planning on catching it on the way down?

[TiggsTours]

I don't know if this is your issue, I wouldn't want to cause offence by suggesting it is, but for some men it is the case, and they may be reading this.

If the lady won't allow you lead her into a comb, it could be a sign that its time to use a towel and change your t-shirt! A good way to test that is to try leading the ocotopus straight after, if she doesn't trail her hand around your back, you've found your answer. :nice:

[MartinHarper]

They seem to turn instead of letting me comb them. ... How do you stop the lady from turning and actually execute the comb?

Ladycombs/Caresses are one of the more choreographed elements of intermediate-level Ceroc. Try aiming for the precise point which indicates neither a turn to the left, nor a turn to the right, and hope for the best,

[Msfab]

I know I am going to regret asking this, but why are you throwing the follower's hand up in the air? Are you planning on catching it on the way down?
Its one of those silly moves going round at the moment! I dont get it either!:whistle:

[Rhythm King]

Or how about just not doing a comb?:whistle:
Indeed Msfab, why comb when you can hair pull:devil:


Ladycombs/Caresses are one of the more choreographed elements of intermediate-level Ceroc.
I don't agree with you there, Martin, I think that these moves can be lead quite easily, provided you have the right connection and the follower doesn't anticipate.

[spindr]

I know I am going to regret asking this, but why are you throwing the follower's hand up in the air? Are you planning on catching it on the way down?
Maybe :devil:

It lets the follower do arm styling -- self-combs / caresses, etc.

It lets a leader do a number of things:
1). Hit a brief punctuation in the music.
2). Releases the hand -- makes a nice way of styling a simple hand change, e.g. throw up and catch behind your back.
3). Nice statue of liberty pose for a finish.
4). Consecutive ones have a fun "cheese" factor.
etc., etc.

It's only like a comb without the danger of dragging the ladies hair ornaments -- I use the basket duck move for that :)

SpinDr

[doc martin]

Its one of those silly moves going round at the moment! I dont get it either!:whistle:
And what is the follower supposed to do with this hand whilst it is in the air? It must look like you are asking to be excused.

Also when does the leader get it back? He might want it to lead another move at some point in the evening.

To get back on thread, I had a problem with the basket caress for a while with followers who did not know the move and turned out as you raise and pull backwards on their right hand. One part of the solution for me was, as Franck suggested, keeping a firm grip on the hip ("Grip the hip", now there's a nice chant).

The other thing that helped for me was to initiate the comb/caress late, when the follower has already stepped back and got her weight on the right foot. The only problem then is if they have lead pipe arms. ie. they will only let you bend their arms slowly. But in that case many moves become more like a wrestling match than a dance, so a basket caress becomes one amongst many to be avoided..

Edit: cross post with spindr

[Ghost]

The only problem then is if they have lead pipe arms. ie. they will only let you bend their arms slowly.
Tempo shift down to Blues speed. Take it nice and slooooooooow and you can get quite a sexy caress out of it - I would recommend only going for the one though rather than multiples.

Take care,
Christopher

[Frankie_4711]

You can do it "properly" if the lady knows the move, much in the same way that ladies who know the neckbreak signal don't try and "high 5" you, whereas those who don't often will :worthy:


Sorry, slightly off topic here, but this made me laugh ... simply because for some obscure reason for a week or two a couple of months ago I started doing this! I really have no idea why - I've been doing successful neckbreaks for well over a year and all of a sudden - BAM! hand goes in the air, mine automatically goes to meet it!:blush: Luckily I got my mind back pretty quickly!

Back on topic - never had a problem with a basket caress so I'm no help at all really! Sorry!

[Ghost]

Sorry, slightly off topic here, but this made me laugh ... simply because for some obscure reason for a week or two a couple of months ago I started doing this! I really have no idea why - I've been doing successful neckbreaks for well over a year and all of a sudden - BAM! hand goes in the air, mine automatically goes to meet it!:blush: Luckily I got my mind back pretty quickly!
You're obviously getting better as a follow :worthy:


Back on topic - never had a problem with a basket caress so I'm no help at all really! Sorry!
When the guy starts to raise your hand to comb do you think "Basket caress"?

Take care,
Christopher

[Caro]

a couple of things might help:

1. lead a comb, and not a turn :devil: , by that I mean very light arm, keep it close to the lady (the more you raise and move your arm forward, the more likely she will want to go under and turn), you can also try to use just one or two finger it that helps making your lead lighter
2. it helps if you initiate the lead when she is stepping back (whereas if you start when she is stepping forward she might well think you're exiting the move)
3. If that's not enough, as Franck said, use a stronger connection on your right hand maintaining the lady on your side, and even apply a slight push towards the floor (that will actually 'nail' the lady's foot to the floor as Trampy joked :whistle: )

hope this helps, many happy combs :flower:

[TheTramp]

3. If that's not enough, as Franck said, use a stronger connection on your right hand maintaining the lady on your side, and even apply a slight push towards the floor (that will actually 'nail' the lady's foot to the floor as Trampy joked :whistle: )

Ummm. What on earth gave you the idea that I was joking?? :yum:

[Caro]

Ummm. What on earth gave you the idea that I was joking?? :yum:

that's what I'm saying, I don't think you were joking :rolleyes:

[Gadget]

I'm learning how to lead combs without the turn into them just now, especially lady's combs. {so many...nice...things to do from here :devil:}

Asides from clarity in the lead, I have found that the timeing is vital - they can only turn when weight is fully committed to the pivot foot, so I initiate movement and see the follower commit to it, then move their hand rather than lead their bodys. You also need to make sure that you take that small step in closer while the follower's back is to you (try not to let the lateral movement affect the lead hand above the follower) This makes the move so much easier.
(Actually I tend to just place one foot in closer, bending the knees to drop my height {eyes level wth hair line is a good guide} like a mini-lunge. Again, time it right, or you end up almost hitting your own head taking the hand over)

With the lady's comb in the basket, I tend to 'hold' the follower to my side with the right hand while dropping the hand over. Much clearer.

{If a follower tried to continue turning when I led them into a comb, they would end up pivoted with their arm round my neck... in fact almost the perfect position for a seducer :whistle:}

[Baruch]

2. it helps if you initiate the lead when she is stepping back
:yeah: Works for me, anyway. I had trouble with that move for ages, until I figured out that it was all to do with momentum. If the lady's momentum is backwards, she's not going to be able to "follow" the lead to turn out so easily. Plus a firm grip with the right hand also helps.

[spindr]

There could be another reason why you're having trouble leading a comb (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4921690.stm) :whistle:

SpinDr

[Freya]

There could be another reason why you're having trouble leading a comb (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4921690.stm) :whistle:

SpinDr
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yeah hope that one is why moves don't work on me sometimes! As oppsed to me not Following correctly! (The latter being the more likely of the 2!)

[Ghost]

There could be another reason why you're having trouble leading a comb (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4921690.stm) :whistle:

SpinDr
I'll admit to occassionally thinking " :awe: :awe: :awe: Oh, wait I'm supposed to be leading now aren't I :blush: "

:whistle:
Take care,
Christopher

[Freya]

a couple of things might help:

1. lead a comb, and not a turn :devil: , by that I mean very light arm, keep it close to the lady (the more you raise and move your arm forward, the more likely she will want to go under and turn), you can also try to use just one or two finger it that helps making your lead lighter
2. it helps if you initiate the lead when she is stepping back (whereas if you start when she is stepping forward she might well think you're exiting the move)
3. If that's not enough, as Franck said, use a stronger connection on your right hand maintaining the lady on your side, and even apply a slight push towards the floor (that will actually 'nail' the lady's foot to the floor as Trampy joked :whistle: )

hope this helps, many happy combs :flower:

Caro and Myself tried this out last night!!!! A few points that we decided on: if you lead the comb as you step back the lady is unlikely to turn being the most likely to succeed! It is very difficult to turn while stepping back! :sick:
And if you keep the hand close and light it also prevents turning!!!

Just reiterating that these things do work Really!!

[Gadget]

There could be another reason why you're having trouble leading a comb (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4921690.stm) :whistle:

SpinDr
ClaireS.

Need I say more? :flower:

[bigdjiver]

I have skimmed this thread, so apologies if I am repeating other suggestions.

In both moves I lead the ladies hand towards my own forehead, pausing slightly. This stops the lady turning. I then divert our hands to their proper place late in the move. In the basket caress I also use a hint of a lean to the left to anchor the lady in place.

[Frankie_4711]

You're obviously getting better as a follow :worthy:

Thank you! I do hope so! Would love to know what possessed me to try and do that in the first place after doing them right for so long - just to 'forget' is strange - maybe it's old age creeping up on me!!



When the guy starts to raise your hand to comb do you think "Basket caress"?

I think so - I don't really think about it - it just happens. When I see the hand behind the back I actually think "Pretzel", but this just doesn't happen the same way (not to me anyway!), but I can't ever remember trying to turn out of it! Does that make any sense at all?

[Ghost]

Thank you! I do hope so! Would love to know what possessed me to try and do that in the first place after doing them right for so long - just to 'forget' is strange - maybe it's old age creeping up on me!!
I honestly think you're getting better at following. The high 5 is the correct response in my opinion. There's a similar Blues moves for the lead to grasp your hand.


I think so - I don't really think about it - it just happens. When I see the hand behind the back I actually think "Pretzel", but this just doesn't happen the same way (not to me anyway!), but I can't ever remember trying to turn out of it! Does that make any sense at all?
Yep. Kinda like Gadget, my thoughts were "What if I actually wanted to lead a turn?"

Thanks,
Christopher

[MartinHarper]

I see two theories on lady combs:

Theory X: The combing hand is not leading because it is not connected. The girl is lead to remain still by some other means (typically the other hand), and thus ignores the combing hand.
Theory Y: the combing hand is not leading because it goes through a magic hole in the girl's frame, located directly above her head.

These theorems can be distinguished by means of a one-handed lady comb. Theory X suggests that these are harder to do, as one has to maintain some kind of spooky visual connection and have that over-ride the hand hold. Theory Y suggests that these will be no easier or harder than other kinds of ladycombs.

My extensive testing on one-handed ladycombs, performed only a little under the influence of champagne, has given compelling evidence for Theory Y. Ideally I should repeat these tests on a range of blind-folded followers, to rule our spooky visual connection and such, but I'm lazy, and the results are good enough for me.

[Andreas]

Indeed Msfab, why comb when you can hair pull:devil:
ten marks for this one! :respect: for courage and :yeah: to content :D


I don't agree with you there, Martin, I think that these moves can be lead quite easily, provided you have the right connection and the follower doesn't anticipate.
I agree, the comb is a beginners move for a reason. Have you tried just shifting your hand laterally a tad? If the lady is inclined to turn clockwise (which usually is the only direction they'd go for) then my guess is that you are combing too far to the lady's right side. Bring your hand slightly further to the right (of the lady's head) and she will not even consider turning. :cheers: