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View Full Version : Ceroc(tm) - Saviour or Beelzebub?



Gus
24th-April-2006, 04:07 PM
Ok ... just been accused (again) of having a vendetta against Ceroc(tm). Think we ran a similar poll some time back but curious to see how the land lies.

How do you see Ceroc .... the fount of all that is good or is it really the Evil Empire incarnate?

Donna
24th-April-2006, 05:04 PM
Ceroc is a great organisation and holds many great events... and it's going to keep on getting better.

ducasi
24th-April-2006, 05:17 PM
I think Ceroc Scotland is a "Great Organisation," but I've really no idea about the rest of it... (Though I'm pretty sure Ceroc N.I. is the best MJ organisation in the whole of Ireland too! :wink:)

Surely it varies some amount from venue to venue and franchise to franchise?

Donna
24th-April-2006, 05:22 PM
Surely it varies some amount from venue to venue and franchise to franchise?

Just what I was thinking.

Gus
24th-April-2006, 05:25 PM
I think Ceroc Scotland is a "Great Organisation," but I've really no idea about the rest of it {SNIP} Surely it varies some amount from venue to venue and franchise to franchise?Oops ... I was actualy trying to refer to Ceroc(HQ) as the 'brains' and strategy behind it all. :blush: As you rightly point out though, I'm sure that most peoples perceptions are as as result of their experience with their local Ceroc franchisee.

Martin
25th-April-2006, 09:03 AM
Oops ... I was actualy trying to refer to Ceroc(HQ) as the 'brains' and strategy behind it all. :blush: As you rightly point out though, I'm sure that most peoples perceptions are as as result of their experience with their local Ceroc franchisee.

From what I understand, Ceroc HQ has made a lot of positive changes of late.

So do you have a vendetta?

Martin
25th-April-2006, 09:07 AM
Ok ... just been accused (again) of having a vendetta against Ceroc(tm). Think we ran a similar poll some time back but curious to see how the land lies.

How do you see Ceroc .... the fount of all that is good or is it really the Evil Empire incarnate?

If you are talking of Ceroc (TM) - maybe this is an old vendetta, as I think the trade mark has now been fully registered and it is Ceroc (R)

azande
25th-April-2006, 09:47 AM
Oops ... I was actualy trying to refer to Ceroc(HQ)
And

I'm sure that most peoples perceptions are as as result of their experience with their local Ceroc franchisee.
Does the above mean that this poll is pointless?

under par
25th-April-2006, 09:50 AM
And

Does the above mean that this poll is pointless?

See there we go again some other POLL STARTER getting a hard time... Gus tell 'im to start 'is own bleedin' poll if yours ain't gud enuff !":cheers:

(Sorry Wrong Thread!)

Gus
25th-April-2006, 10:11 AM
From what I understand, Ceroc HQ has made a lot of positive changes of late.

So do you have a vendetta?Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! :tears: :tears: :tears: Thats was the whole point. No No and thrice NO! EVEN when I had a real bust up with the 'old' Ceroc, I still had huge respect for what they were trying to do and the standard of the teacher training (even if you did need to be a size 8, under 28 and one of the beautifull people to become one.) I think James Cronin achieved more than he could ever have dreamed and for that many people will be forever in his debt.

No vendetta ... just interested to see what the perception was on the Forum. I know people who will not tolerate ANY criticism of Ceroc. I also know people who would gladly firebomb Ceroc HQ and cut Mike Ellards braces. The poll so far suggests that none of the evangelists will own up and the 'Ceroc Must Die' faction are also missing.

I like a lot of what Ceroc is trying to do .... but there will always be that fear of any group that dominates a market so. Comparisons to Microsoft (sorry Franck) do spring to mind at times.

DavidB
25th-April-2006, 10:22 AM
Comparisons to Microsoft (sorry Franck) do spring to mind at times.
In the same way that Microsoft detractors talk about Micro$oft, then Ceroc detractors could talk about €eroc...

This might also explain why imported W€$ teachers can cost so much.

Gus
25th-April-2006, 10:29 AM
In the same way that Microsoft detractors talk about Micro$oft, then Ceroc detractors could talk about €eroc...

This might also explain why imported W€$ teachers can cost so much.Haven't you got an article (or two) to write? :whistle:

Yes, the dreaded financial incentive .... after all its a business. Though, having seen the way hordes of would-be MJ entrepreneurs have dived in to the market of late (all trying to make a quick buck), I think that by comparison Ceroc look like a paragon of virtue.

Edit: I'm not having a go at independants here ... just a specific comment about recent events we've experineced in the North where some 'dubious' tactics have been used.

TheTramp
25th-April-2006, 11:05 AM
What about WCS teachers of dubious value? I'm sure that there are plenty of those, with growing numbers as it becomes more fashionable.

Have heard of teachers who are basically one step ahead of their class. Learning stuff from videos/DVD's, then going out to teach their classes.

I've also seen West Coast Ceroc taught. And it wasn't pretty! :rolleyes:

I don't think that this is anything particular to Modern Jive....

Gus
25th-April-2006, 11:16 AM
What about WCS teachers of dubious value? I'm sure that there are plenty of those, with growing numbers as it becomes more fashionable.

Have heard of teachers who are basically one step ahead of their class. Learning stuff from videos/DVD's, then going out to teach their classes..That applies equally to MJ. There are enough MJ 'teachers' around up here who would fail an audition to be a Ceroc (or Blitz or MoJive) taxi dancer.:( If for nothing else, I like it when Ceroc comes into an area because at least you know the standard of the teachers.

Ceroc have just gone into Shrewsbury. (You can argue about the ethics of moving into an area where there is already an established MJ club) BUT the main thing is that the existing operator is going to have to raise his game or get wiped out. The ideal situation is where standards are raised and BOTH organisations bring new dancers into MJ.

azande
25th-April-2006, 11:18 AM
(You can argue about the ethics of moving into an area where there is already an established MJ club)
Free market anyone?

TheTramp
25th-April-2006, 11:24 AM
That applies equally to MJ. There are enough MJ 'teachers' around up here who would fail an audition to be a Ceroc (or Blitz or MoJive) taxi dancer.:( If for nothing else, I like it when Ceroc comes into an area because at least you know the standard of the teachers.
On the other hand, some of the independants do go on to become good teachers. So, maybe there is a call to give them a chance. Plenty of good teachers out there who got turned down (or never applied) by Ceroc/Blitz etc. for whatever reason. How about Amir, or David & Lily, as people who've never been thought the CTA?

And, while the CTA course does give you a good start, there's nothing like experience. Allegedly, half of a famous teaching duo was fairly rubbish when he started out on his teaching career.

El Salsero Gringo
25th-April-2006, 11:28 AM
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! :tears: :tears: :tears: Thats was the whole point. No No and thrice NO!

{snip}

No vendetta ... just interested to see what the perception was on the Forum. I know people who will not tolerate ANY criticism of Ceroc. I also know people who would gladly firebomb Ceroc HQ and cut Mike Ellards braces. The poll so far suggests that none of the evangelists will own up and the 'Ceroc Must Die' faction are also missing.

I like a lot of what Ceroc is trying to do .... but there will always be that fear of any group that dominates a market so. Comparisons to Microsoft (sorry Franck) do spring to mind at times.Gus, I don't know if you realise this - but every time you *say* that you have nothing against Ceroc (and I'm starting to believe you), every time you start a poll, every time you refer to "the past", every time you say how there are other people who want to "cut ME's braces" and every time you put together words like "Ceroc Must Die" - even to say how you disagree with those sentiments - you're building a rod for your own back.

It's the old "when will you stop beating your wife" situation, isn't it? The more you discuss how awful other people think Ceroc is, the more people are going to associate that view with you. In fact I used to think you were trying to be clever, and did it deliberately - and only now have I realised that perhaps you just don't see what you're doing.

If you really want people to think that you don't have anything against Ceroc (is that what you want?) then the best thing you can do is keep very quiet on the subject. And time - not polls, or discussions, or declamations of loyalty (with or without the 'if only's) - will do the job for you.

Gus
25th-April-2006, 11:30 AM
Free market anyone?
{ODA Mode ON}EXACTLY. The dance business is like any other business. If you have a superior products then you will succeed. If you have a cr*p products you deserve to fail. Competition is GOOD. It drives up standards, improves the quality for the customer. 'Nuff said{ODA Mode OFF}

{Contra-ODA Mode ON}Microsoft, Brightnam :( Even MORE 'Nuff said. {Contra-ODA Mode OFF}

TheTramp
25th-April-2006, 11:31 AM
Gus, I don't know if you realise this - but every time you *say* that you have nothing against Ceroc (and I'm starting to believe you), every time you start a poll, every time you refer to "the past", every time you say how there are other people who want to "cut ME's braces" and every time you put together words like "Ceroc Must Die" - even to say how you disagree with those sentiments - you're building a rod for your own back.

It's the old "when will you stop beating your wife" situation, isn't it? The more you discuss how awful other people think Ceroc is, the more people are going to associate that view with you. In fact I used to think you were trying to be clever, and did it deliberately - and only now have I realised that perhaps you just don't see what you're doing.

If you really want people to think that you don't have anything against Ceroc (is that what you want?) then the best thing you can do is keep very quiet on the subject. And time - not polls, or discussions, or declamations of loyalty (with or without the 'if only's) - will do the job for you.

:yeah: This is just so true! It's not what you say, it's what people perceive you saying!!

Donna
25th-April-2006, 11:32 AM
Hmmm that's five people on the forum who are throwing temper tantrums now .... after all it's only Tuesday. :rolleyes: :D

Trish
25th-April-2006, 11:35 AM
Seems to be the other way round where I am from what I gather, and a large number of people are going to the independent MJ venue where Ceroc's numbers have dropped noticeably. Don't really know why though, could be something to do with getting a bit of a change of music and being taught something a bit different (they've taught tango and blues style lessons for example). I shall still go to Ceroc, but I am going to check out the Leroc venue!

I think Ceroc as an organisation has done some really good things, but when venues have been going a long time (Peterborough's been going 10 years +), they can get a bit complaisant (sp?).

robd
25th-April-2006, 11:42 AM
Seems to be the other way round where I am from what I gather, and a large number of people are going to the independent MJ venue where Ceroc's numbers have dropped noticeably. Don't really know why though

'People go where people go' is a truism that's been mentioned before on this forum and I'm sure is applicable to Pboro.

Rob

Gus
25th-April-2006, 11:43 AM
I think Ceroc as an organisation has done some really good things, but when venues have been going a long time (Peterborough's been going 10 years +), they can get a bit complaisant (sp?).Thats scary ... I started dancing propely at Peterbrough when it was just getting going. Used to have Phil Roberts and Michalea teaching .... didn't realise how spoilt I was being at the time.:waycool:

phaedrus
25th-April-2006, 11:44 AM
I attend LeRoc in Ayr, because that's where I live. I also make 80-mile round trips to Glasgow to go to Ceroc classes and events. I enjoy both, and they both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

I have detected a certain amount of "anti-LeRoc" sentiment on rare occasions, both in this forum and elsewhere. I think that's regrettable.

My position is that I love MJ, and so long as my teachers are good, the prices are reasonable and the events are well run I just don't care what it's called or who's running it. The politics of dance are of no interest to me.

Gus
25th-April-2006, 12:09 PM
I have detected a certain amount of "anti-LeRoc" sentiment on rare occasions, both in this forum and elsewhere. I think that's regrettable.Maybe. But one of the outstanding things about the Forum is that its totaly aok to talk about LeRoc, Blitz, Hipsters etc. Given this is a Ceroc Forum one could understand if non-Ceroc organistations were banned topics. Its to the Forum's credit that there is still such an open policy.

Dan Hudson
25th-April-2006, 12:27 PM
(even if you did need to be a size 8, under 28 and one of the beautifull people to become one.)



that explains my inclusion then:whistle:

Gus
25th-April-2006, 12:31 PM
that explains my inclusion then:whistle:Au contraire ... just goes to prove that even the mighty CTA are not infallible :na: :na:

Heather
25th-April-2006, 01:05 PM
What about WCS teachers of dubious value? I'm sure that there are plenty of those, with growing numbers as it becomes more fashionable.

Have heard of teachers who are basically one step ahead of their class. Learning stuff from videos/DVD's, then going out to teach their classes.

I've also seen West Coast Ceroc taught. And it wasn't pretty! :rolleyes:

I don't think that this is anything particular to Modern Jive....


Fortunately for us here in Scotland, our West Coast Swing teachers are of the highest calibre, presenting well prepared and carefully planned classes for the punters. Brady has his finger firmly on the pulse of what is happening, having made several visits to West Coast Swing conventions and events in America where he has been taught in private lessons by the World's best!
We are very lucky here in Scotland to have Brady and Lindsay and of course there is also Graham ( of the former Graham + Diane partnership) who is also a very experienced WCS dancer and teacher!

I'm sorry that Trampy's experience of WCS seems to have been such a negative one. Maybe he would revise his opinion if he were to attend some of Brady + Lindsays workshops on his doorstep in Dundee!

:hug:
Heather

phaedrus
25th-April-2006, 01:25 PM
We are very lucky here in Scotland to have Brady and Lindsay and of course there is also Graham ( of the former Graham + Diane partnership) who is also a very experienced WCS dancer and teacher!


:yeah: I've just attended my first WCS workshops with Brady & Lindsay, and they are *exceptionally* good teachers! I just wish I lived closer to Dundee!

Dance Demon
25th-April-2006, 03:17 PM
:yeah: I've just attended my first WCS workshops with Brady & Lindsay, and they are *exceptionally* good teachers! I just wish I lived closer to Dundee!

They teach in Edinburgh on wednesday nights, which although not exactly on your doorstep, is closer than Dundee:)

Lou
25th-April-2006, 07:26 PM
If you are talking of Ceroc (TM) - maybe this is an old vendetta, as I think the trade mark has now been fully registered and it is Ceroc (R)

Dammit. So does that mean I have to get used to typing Ceroc < Alt > 0174 now? :rolleyes:


Maybe. But one of the outstanding things about the Forum is that its totaly aok to talk about LeRoc, Blitz, Hipsters etc. Given this is a Ceroc Forum one could understand if non-Ceroc organistations were banned topics. Its to the Forum's credit that there is still such an open policy.
:yeah:

And because of Franck's open house policy, I'm less bothered about stepping back on my left foot & regularly and happily go to Ceroc® classes. :na:

ducasi
25th-April-2006, 08:18 PM
Dammit. So does that mean I have to get used to typing Ceroc < Alt > 0174 now? :rolleyes:
Well if you got yourself a decent computer (like a Mac :whistle:), you could just type option-R. :D

bigdjiver
26th-April-2006, 12:31 AM
Seems to be the other way round where I am from what I gather, and a large number of people are going to the independent MJ venue where Ceroc's numbers have dropped noticeably. Don't really know why though, could be something to do with getting a bit of a change of music and being taught something a bit different (they've taught tango and blues style lessons for example). I shall still go to Ceroc, but I am going to check out the Leroc venue!...AFIK this "Leroc" venue has just adopted the name, and had nothing to do with the original Leroc organisation or teaching. When I first attended the moves were taught with the Ceroc names and "style". It has adopted several innovative ideas, and, when I attended, had failed to learn from Ceroc good practise in other areas. I have used the compare and contrast method to evaluate several of my own ideas, and develop new ones. Regretably the organiser is intensely anti-Ceroc and anti-me so I do not go any more. I loved the opportunity to dance to adventurous tracks, even though they often cleared the floor, and sometimes the venue.
Peterborough is probably also probably suffering losses to Sarah Whites classes.
The success of these venues in a mostly agricultural area is one of the planks on which my contention is based, that Ceroc is not growing fast enough.

El Salsero Gringo
26th-April-2006, 09:05 AM
The success of these venues in a mostly agricultural area is one of the planks on which my contention is based, that Ceroc is not growing fast enough.It's all about having enough parking spaces for tractors.

Lou
26th-April-2006, 09:15 AM
AFIK this "Leroc" venue has just adopted the name, and had nothing to do with the original Leroc organisation or teaching.

FWIW...

LeRoc is a generic term, and most LeRoc organisations are independent of each other.

LeRoc teaching, move names, and even footwork can vary from group to group.

Gus
26th-April-2006, 10:29 AM
LeRoc teaching, move names, and even footwork can vary from group to group."And that is why you fail Luke Skywalker" etc. etc. etc.

Brady
1st-May-2006, 10:14 AM
:yeah: I've just attended my first WCS workshops with Brady & Lindsay, and they are *exceptionally* good teachers! I just wish I lived closer to Dundee!

Glad you enjoyed the workshop and hope you have a chance to make it to more wcs events. Keep an eye out as there are always new events popping up around the country with some of the top professionals paying visits to the UK. For example, Robert & Deborah will be at Southport in June and Benji Schwimmer will be there in September. I saw Benji perform last year in California and he's fantastic. :respect: I've also heard rumour that Kyle & Sarah will be back to Rebel Yell again this year in October. Again, another fantastic couple at the top of the wcs circuit in the US; saw them in Monterey in January and they're amazing.

Brady

Brady
1st-May-2006, 10:35 AM
Fortunately for us here in Scotland, our West Coast Swing teachers are of the highest calibre, presenting well prepared and carefully planned classes for the punters. Brady has his finger firmly on the pulse of what is happening, having made several visits to West Coast Swing conventions and events in America where he has been taught in private lessons by the World's best!
We are very lucky here in Scotland to have Brady and Lindsay and of course there is also Graham ( of the former Graham + Diane partnership) who is also a very experienced WCS dancer and teacher!

I'm sorry that Trampy's experience of WCS seems to have been such a negative one. Maybe he would revise his opinion if he were to attend some of Brady + Lindsays workshops on his doorstep in Dundee!

:hug:
Heather

Of course there will always be teachers in any dance style trying to keep ahead of their class. This doesn't only happen in modern jive, but will happen in salsa, ballroom, west coast swing, whatever. It's unfortunate for those at the top of the class, but hopefully they will realise this and perhaps find another dance or class that will challenge them.

As for the Tramps comment on using DVDs, I think there are two ways to use them. If you use them to learn the dance basics (i.e. rhythm patterns, basics, etc) then there is a problem. If you use them for new moves (patterns) or ideas then this is surely no different than opening up the Ceroc book of moves and making up a class routine?

To avoid being in this position myself I've made three trips to the US in the past 8 months (4th coming up soon) to keep up to date on the latest in WCS. As well, I've completed my first stage of teacher training with Skippy Blair (Jordan & Tatiana, amongst others, coach) in January. Given the lack of WCS here in the UK, trips to the US are pretty much the only way to keep class material fresh and updated. I know both Cat and Paul in London also travel across to the US to major events, which provides them with top quality material for their classes.

Brady