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Gus
16th-April-2006, 06:02 PM
Was wandering through the web and came across a site where the teacher (salsa) was talking about how he had selected his best students and was training them up for performances etc. Got me thinking ….

Given that there is the constant whinge that standard classes do not accommodate the dancers who want to progress, it would seem logical that they need coaching outside the class environment. For it to work you’d need an experienced teacher (or several) and up to, say, 15 dancers who really wanted to improve and were willing to put the time in. The end result needed necessarily be performance work or competitions, but the dnacers would be an example fo what could be achieved.

This all sounds fine on paper … but the Forum has been replete with stories of the ‘better dancers’ morphing into the Untouchable Elite. Also, it would be but human nature for those who were not invited to joining this cadre to feel resentment.

So … would such a development team work, or is it likely to cause more trouble than its worth?

Lynn
16th-April-2006, 06:12 PM
I could see the selection process being a problem. If you have self-selecting - those dancers who want to improve - you can have people not yet at the level required. If you have teacher selection - as the salsa teacher you mentioned had - you have people feeling left out at not being included.

You can then end up with a small group within the larger group at a venue or set of local venues, who are seperated off as the 'better' dancers. This can work in encouraging others to aspire to be involved in this group or it can lead to feelings of 'them and us'.

That's all very well in salsa because there is already a much higher incidence (from what I have heard and what I have seen) of this than in MJ, but its not something I would want to see actively encouraged in MJ at regular local venue level.

Training for a specific event - say a cabaret team training for a performance - I think is a bit different. And if there is a pattern of doing this on a regular (say annual) basis, then those not involved can feel they might get a chance to be involved next time.

Of course this then excludes dancers who want to improve their dancing but don't want to perform...

under par
16th-April-2006, 07:34 PM
I think that if a teacher or group of teachers wanted to start a project to have their own proteges in a small group learning together it would be a fantastic experience for all those involved.


I am sure that the participation in, and focussed training with others of like talent would inspire those involved.


Within most dance styles and also definitely within the modern jive community there is the normal human un-charitable emotions of jealousy/ resentment of any people who may be seen as the best or elite or any that get extra special treatment.

How this jealousy/ resentment is personified in the community varies.

The British Olympic team for 2012 are supporting "elite" competitors with millions of pounds in an attempt to win medals for Britain.
For the time being this is seen as acceptable as its for our nation that it is done.

When you bring the scheme back down to a smaller community of people whether its salsa or modern jive I do not believe all the non-participants of an elite scheme would be quite as charitable in their thoughts and words towards those involved in an elite scheme.

I read here on the forum and see in other aspects of my life how those who aspire to improve , to get to the top, to be as good as they are able to, are pointed out as hot shots or stuck up their own a4$es. The connatations of elitsm are almost always bad.

I do not wish to apologise or placatepeople who are in anyway rude or treat others poorly because they think they are better.
These people suck whether they are elite or not elite whatever walk of life.

I do wish all communities were more charitable to those amongst who try to improve themselves.

Getting back to Gus's thread just about... let those who wish to improve themselves in any way at all get on and do it.

I do not think this type of elite scheme will get going in modern jive personally because too many persons would fear being ostacised by involvement.

On the other side of the coin though elite training is already taking place. I give the example of Phil and Yuko:respect: now this couple have improved and improved so much so that I was open mouthed at a caberet thay did in Oxford on Friday. Wow!! they are really pushing the boundaries they are elite dancers. Their training scedule must be incredible and I bet they have teachers and mentors helping them to get them to the heights they have already reached .... and I bet they improve more :worthy: :worthy:

There asre so many others out there pushing their own boundaries, improving themselves.

There are also some who are dancing happily at a certain level and have done so for years with no wish to change.

So Elitism and elite training is good.
What forumites and dancers and all should ask is "Do you want to see great dancers? " and "Do you want to dance with great dancers and champions?"

Well how do you think they become great? elite? champions?

Great teaching dedication and hours and hours of PRACTICE.

There is plenty of room for social dancing and the sociable way that ceroc and leroc has its classes and club nights is fantastic, weekenders are also amazing social events.
But there is also room for aspirational dancers to who want to improve who may have to take time out from be social dancing (without any rudeness!) to train and practice to enable improvement.

Live and let live.:cheers:

Lynn
16th-April-2006, 10:12 PM
Getting back to Gus's thread just about... let those who wish to improve themselves in any way at all get on and do it. People who want to improve themselves will find ways of doing so, but I'm not sure that setting something up within an existing class on a local level with people selected by the teachers is the best method. Maybe I'm just very sensitive to people feeling they aren't 'good enough' at the moment, as I'm spending a lot of time dancing with newer dancers (and am all too familiar with the feeling myself, but I know from experience that almost all the better dancers aren't elitist.)

But there is also room for aspirational dancers to who want to improve who may have to take time out from be social dancing (without any rudeness!) to train and practice to enable improvement.Absolutely. And something like having private lessons, getting a group together to book a venue and practice, travelling to experience different teachers, and seeking better dancers for help and feedback are all methods that can be and are used.

I think it makes a difference what method is selected depending on whether someone wants to improve for performance or for social dancing, I think the focus is different.

Andreas
17th-April-2006, 07:28 AM
plenty of really good stuff
Nothing more to add, really. Great post. :clap: :respect:

philsmove
17th-April-2006, 09:59 AM
IOn the other side of the coin though elite training is already taking place. I give the example of Phil and Yuko:respect::

:respect: Respect indeed

And they regularly come to Bristol teach and dance with us mortals :clap:

Gus
17th-April-2006, 10:34 AM
..... I do not think this type of elite scheme will get going in modern jive personally because too many persons would fear being ostacised by involvement.

[snip]

But there is also room for aspirational dancers to who want to improve who may have to take time out from be social dancing (without any rudeness!) to train and practice to enable improvement.
Well ... I sort of tried this a year or so ago ... the HOTHOUSE. Went ok for a few seesions then we muddied the water a bit by incorporating WCS. This then all progressed to the Cool Catz concept ... running more technical classes for those who really wanted to improve. I learnt a few hard lessons doing all this, in a similar way to Hipsters club nights. That format of night I dont think works ... BUT, the sunday 2 hour session with just keen dnacers (NOT neccessarily advanced dancers) may work.

I'm toying with the idea again (once I see how the new contract works out) .... but probably for selfish reasons. I'd love to have better dancers to dance with and I love coaching. Dance standards seem to have stagnated up here ... don't know what it will take for us to follow the example of Bristol. Maybe we should all convert to LeRoc?:whistle: :wink:

Baruch
17th-April-2006, 11:03 AM
Maybe we should all convert to LeRoc?
Amen, brother! Le Roc welcomes all lost sheep to the fold. Now repeat after me: "Step back on the right.... step back on the right.... step back on the right...."

:whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

RogerR
17th-April-2006, 01:48 PM
The really good dancers grow out of Ceroc because there is no place for them. The Ceroc model is a mass market model and there are not masses of good dancers.

Real Dancers from Pro training can take a group of MJers and develop something more.

Jive Brummie
17th-April-2006, 03:30 PM
I kinda like the idea of training up 'the few'. It's been mentioned over and over how Ceroc/Leroc are more social dances...whatever that means and so for the few who really want to be that something extra, then why not give them the opportunity to develop within a more intimate coaching environment.

I know that it could potentially upset people who may feel capable but are otherwise rejected by the selection of the teacher...but hey, we all comply to the same rules. At the end of the day if you don't cut the mustard then you wouldn't get selected. What it would do however, is give you the opportunity to see, hear and hopefully understand the areas in which you could improve, turning you into a dance god!

I'm for it..how do I apply:wink: .

JB x x

ducasi
17th-April-2006, 03:35 PM
Was wandering through the web and came across a site where the teacher (salsa) was talking about how he had selected his best students and was training them up for performances etc. Is this any different from how team performances at competitions happen?

AFAIA, the two Scottish teams that entered at Blackpool were by invitation only.

I don't think that anyone I know in those teams are in any way elitist. (At least, not any more so than they were before. :na:)

I've also heard of workshops that were (effectively) by invitation only.

I, personally, would love to be hand-picked by a teacher for special attention. (Any teachers out there think they can make anything of me? ;)) Doesn't mean I won't stop dancing with anyone who asks me.

Jive Brummie
17th-April-2006, 03:52 PM
I thought of something else...

When I was growing up I was never one of the few who were naturally gifted at sports...or science...or anything else for that matter. I was one of the people who had to work their butt off to achieve anything. Yeah I got help with homework and sufficient teaching to enable me to pass my exams pretty well...but nothing to shout out about. At the same time I knew people who did have natural talent, they were good at sport or science etc etc and they had all the help and assistance they required. Fair play I thought...if you've got it flaunt it and all that.

Then there were the people who had all the talent, everything came easy to them whatever they tried. But, they had no backing, nobody to help them, recognise their ability or give them any assistance....needless to say, their talent just fell by the wayside.

So, another reason why I'm all for this type of training is that if you have an ounce of ability that seperates you from the rest, it should be actively promoted and nurtured to make you the best you possibly can be, not just ignored because if you get special treatment it might offend or upset somebody else...

I can so see that I'll be a pushy parent:rofl:

JB. x x

Gus
17th-April-2006, 03:54 PM
I'm for it..how do I apply:wink: .

JB x xWas rather hoping someone like you would coach someone like me :blush:

Jive Brummie
17th-April-2006, 04:02 PM
Was rather hoping someone like you would coach someone like me :blush:

:rofl: :rofl:

You've got to pass selection first mate...

And FC has just suggested that you might already be beyond help:rofl:

:flower:

JB.

PretzelMeister
17th-April-2006, 05:06 PM
I kinda like the idea of training up 'the few'. It's been mentioned over and over how Ceroc/Leroc are more social dances...whatever that means and so for the few who really want to be that something extra, then why not give them the opportunity to develop within a more intimate coaching environment.

I know that it could potentially upset people who may feel capable but are otherwise rejected by the selection of the teacher...but hey, we all comply to the same rules. At the end of the day if you don't cut the mustard then you wouldn't get selected. What it would do however, is give you the opportunity to see, hear and hopefully understand the areas in which you could improve, turning you into a dance god!

I'm for it..how do I apply:wink: .

JB x x

Ditto. Except for the ':wink:' - I really mean it!

Franck ran a series of 'focus' workshops in Stirling earlier this year which were good. They were not aimed at 'advanced' or 'experienced' dancers but open and pitched at all, with the emphasis on key dance techniques rather than moves - i.e. learning to dance rather than learning to do moves.

Have only had 1 attempt at competing - in the Intermediates at Scottish Champs last year - and was a bit of a disaster. Would like to be good enough to have another go at a competition (as would quite a few others I know in Glasgow) - just don't know where to go to get the help/instruction required. Sure, can watch DVDs and there's no two ways about it - practice, practice, practice is the probably the biggest single factor, but knowing what to practice and getting feedback on how well you are / are not doing is also key.

Maybe private lessons are the only way to do this. I don't think we here in Scotland have as large a number of workshop options as our fellow dancers further south either.

I think with James [JiveBrummie] & Melanie hiring a hall in Perth to practice in in the run to their comptetions events, and having some friends come along as well, they established as kind of self-help / self-teach group - but with the added benefit of James & Mel's experience and expertise. And I think (imho, but I may well be wide of the mark) that that has contributed significantly to raising the standard of dance in the Perth & Dundee area.

In summary:

yes, I think focussed / intensive classes for dancers who really want to improve above the level of decent social dancer, are a good idea.
agree these may be difficult to set up in terms of selection - for same reasons Lynn has articulated so well already. And from a commercial viewpoint, how does the teacher says "No thanks. Keep your money. You're just not QUITE good enough yet for this series of X classes totally £50/£100 or whatever."?
in the absence of anything like that, suggest anything other than forming a "self-help" group and trying to learn from DVDs?

Cheers,


PM

Jive Brummie
17th-April-2006, 06:09 PM
Certainly when Melanie and I have practised for comps, we have either videod ourselves or had constructive criticism from helpers!

In the lead up to Blackpool this year, two friends of ours came to a couple of our practises. These two are experienced Rock'N'Rollers, but are very new to the modern jive world, so as yet are not totally competent at the dance form. They do however have a good eye for detail and the female member of the couple is particularly brutal in her 'constructive criticism'. By having these two there, it didn't help us in the way of coaching...as that's something they didn't do....it did help however that they had a good overall view of what we were or were not doing....

And at times, being told that you look truly awful is quite hard to swallow....but if it doesn't break you...it makes you! There were even times when, despite dancing crap we had to just knuckle down and work through it. Again, quite hard to do.

We'd have loved to have had a pro coach helping us, but unfortunately they're few and far between....in fact you'd probably have to look outside the world of modern jive to find one.

If help from outside is unavailable then you must be brutally honest with yourself if you want to improve IMHO. If you look at somebody on the dance floor and think WOW they look amazing, think why they do. What is it that they do or how they do it? Undoubtedly, having a fixed partner helps.

If anybody fancies taking Melanie and I on to train so that we can take over the world then please feel free to PM me!!!! *insert insane Dr Evil laugh...Mwah hahahahahahahahhahahaha!*

JB.

ElaineB
17th-April-2006, 08:50 PM
Sure, can watch DVDs and there's no two ways about it - practice, practice, practice is the probably the biggest single factor, but knowing what to practice and getting feedback on how well you are / are not doing is also key.

Maybe private lessons are the only way to do this. I don't think we here in Scotland have as large a number of workshop options as our fellow dancers further south either.

PM

Private lessons were by far and away more beneficial than workshops to myself and Simon. As JB said, be prepared to be told that you are not the best thing since sliced bread and work on it. Of course, competition dancing is very different to social dancing and as the great Amir put it, even if you don't do well in a competition, it doesn't mean that you aren't a good dancer.

After that practice, practice and practice..........

Elaine

Lynn
17th-April-2006, 08:56 PM
And at times, being told that you look truly awful is quite hard to swallow....but if it doesn't break you...it makes you! There were even times when, despite dancing crap we had to just knuckle down and work through it. Again, quite hard to do. Definitely. (Not that I can picture you and FC ever looking 'truly awful'!) But I would rather be told my faults and be able to work on them - and there are some folk and some forumites who do that and I really appreciate it. No its not easy, but yes, its worth it.

Just had a thought - I could be hand picked to be trained - for an example of 'look what you can do with even the most basic of dancers':rofl: If she can do it...

I suppose the advantage of a handpicked group would be that it would be even nos and you could spend time working with one person. (I'm finding it very difficult to find anyone who wants to work on their dancing enough to take time out for practice or private lessons. I know there is no-one in NI, which is frustrating.)

bigdjiver
18th-April-2006, 01:40 AM
... well how do you think they become great? elite? champions?...

There is no need to write the question in big letters.


Great teaching dedication and hours and hours of PRACTICE. There is no need to write your answer in even bigger letters, especially if it is incomplete.

You need talent. Also, in an artistic endeavour, originality really helps. In a competitive environment it also usually helps to be a competitor, and that attribute is not always a good thing.

As for dancing with champions, it is still possible in MJ, but if the competition ever really hots up then prospective champions will rarely be accessible to the normal social dancer.

bigdjiver
18th-April-2006, 01:44 AM
I have suggested in the past that forming a formation cabaret team might be a good idea. I also suggested that they should use a separate room in a new venue for training on a class night. I saw this as a way of getting some more advanced dancers along.

under par
18th-April-2006, 06:30 AM
There is no need to write the question in big letters.

There is no need to write your answer in even bigger letters, especially if it is incomplete.

.
Apologies!!!:hug:

Gus
18th-April-2006, 08:35 AM
I have suggested in the past that forming a formation cabaret team might be a good idea. I also suggested that they should use a separate room in a new venue for training on a class night. I saw this as a way of getting some more advanced dancers along.Funny, if any area in the UK has got the organisation, the teachers and the dancers to do an organsied team, its Ceroc Central. However, despite two dancers from the region winning the openning Ceroc Champs, I don't think that CCentral have never organised anythging of this ilk. Mayber its just needs someone to ask Phil or Michela?

robd
18th-April-2006, 11:01 AM
Funny, if any area in the UK has got the organisation, the teachers and the dancers to do an organsied team, its Ceroc Central. However, despite two dancers from the region winning the openning Ceroc Champs, I don't think that CCentral have never organised anythging of this ilk. Mayber its just needs someone to ask Phil or Michela?

Emma has her troupe who (sometimes) perform at the Daventry freestyles. I don't know if they ever compete though. Some people from this area might cynically suggest that Phil wouldn't be interested in anything that didn't have a direct financial benefit. Not knowing him, I couldn't possibly comment on that.

Robert

Gus
18th-April-2006, 11:14 AM
Some people from this area might cynically suggest that Phil wouldn't be interested in anything that didn't have a direct financial benefit. Not knowing him, I couldn't possibly comment on that.....and to be fair, why should he? Ceroc Central is the most succesfull (and probably most profitable) MJ franchise in the UK, and all down to hard work and Phil's well known commercial expertise. Comes back to the 'charity' v 'business' argument ... again.

However, given the availability of good dancers and teachers, any individual could try to set something up.

Simon r
18th-April-2006, 12:23 PM
Funny, if any area in the UK has got the organisation, the teachers and the dancers to do an organsied team, its Ceroc Central. However, despite two dancers from the region winning the openning Ceroc Champs, I don't think that CCentral have never organised anythging of this ilk. Mayber its just needs someone to ask Phil or Michela?


Who was this then.....:confused:

Gus
18th-April-2006, 12:30 PM
Who was this then.....:confused:
1999 Champs were won by a lass from Peterborough club (who I used to dance with) and a SE Asian lad, might have been called Marco (from Bedford ?), who later became a teacher for Phil. They were the best dancers BY MILES. Would be nice to see it again on video to see how that (then) awesome display compares to the standards now.


Ahhhhh ... just seen why you queried ... didn't make it all clear I was talking history :blush:

Northants Girly
18th-April-2006, 12:53 PM
Emma has her troupe who (sometimes) perform at the Daventry freestyles. I don't know if they ever compete though. They do compete and in the past have sometimes done quite well.
Eg. last year they were placed 3rd at Blackpool and 2nd at Ceroc champs

they didn't compete at Blackpool this year as they were at Storm . . .

Tiggerbabe
18th-April-2006, 12:57 PM
Emma has her troupe who (sometimes) perform at the Daventry freestyles. I don't know if they ever compete though.
Emma won, with her team, at the Ceroc Champs in 2003 (I think) and she also had a team at Blackpool one year, maybe 2004?

MartinHarper
18th-April-2006, 01:18 PM
I guess it depends what you're trying to achieve. If you want to make a name for yourself as a teacher, then take the top 15 and train them up for performances. If you're trying to make your venue an enjoyable place to dance, then take 15 of your regular intermediates, especially ones with bad habits that limit their potential, and train them to be excellent social dancers.

Simplest option: train those who wish to be trained.

Donna
18th-April-2006, 01:52 PM
I guess it depends what you're trying to achieve. If you want to make a name for yourself as a teacher, then take the top 15 and train them up for performances.

This is a great idea and is one that my teacher has come up with. (not that there are 15 dancers that he could pick out in our venue as most of them area at beginner level) He's thinking of using a few of the dancers to do a cabaret which really does help to improve your dancing.



Simplest option: train those who wish to be trained.

At least then if there is that option nobody can start whinging about feeling left out.

bigdjiver
26th-April-2006, 01:13 AM
Funny, if any area in the UK has got the organisation, the teachers and the dancers to do an organsied team, its Ceroc Central. However, despite two dancers from the region winning the openning Ceroc Champs, I don't think that CCentral have never organised anythging of this ilk. Mayber its just needs someone to ask Phil or Michela?:sad: someone did :sad: I suggested this when Bedford opened on a Monday night, as a way of getting more experienced dancers along. It is easy to suggest things when your own cash, time and reputation are not on the line.