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clevedonboy
4th-April-2006, 05:58 PM
Taken from another thread:nice:


:clap:

:D

What makes a dance a "swing" dance anyway? What makes a dance a "jive"?

I'd guess that most ceroc these days (don't know about the past) isn't danced to swing or rock-n-roll music.



The Programme that Bruce Forsythe introduced recently about the history of dance summed it up quite well - the "swing family" of dances are The American Dance Form.

If you're interested here's a very brief history :

The change in the dance performed by the original Lindy Hoppers at the Savoy in the late 1920s is closely related to the change in music at that time. Jazz changed from two beats in the bar (like a march) to four beats in the bar & so it became smoother. Around the same time Louis Armstrong was becoming just about the most important Jazz musician (Duke Ellington fans might have something to say about that). Louis Armstrong is widely creditied with teaching the world to swing by subtly changing the timing of the notes he played (of course he probably nicked it off somebody else). Ellington popularised swing with his song "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing", but it wasn't until Benny Goodman took the white American population by storm that swing became the American dance, some 10 years after it began in Harlem.

Rock 'n Roll is decended from Lindy as is Boogie Woogie, Balboa and when it comes down to it so is modern jive (Jive is the English word originally used to describe Jazz). The difference is that MJ didn't stay with its origins and has used dance moves from anywhere and everywhere, partly reflecting the change in music in wider society. BUT if you see Lindy Hoppers or Rock 'N Rollers dance you will recognise many moves

Sorry if that was a bit dull. :grin:

ducasi
4th-April-2006, 06:12 PM
If you're interested here's a very brief history Thanks, not dull at all...

I already knew some of the history, and so I know that MJ came from swing music and Lindy Hop. But beyond the family history, what makes a dance a swing?

When I look at Lindy, WCS and MJ, I see three clearly related but very different dances. Are WCS and MJ really "swing" dances?

WCS still has swing footwork, but MJ doesn't. So is it still "swing"?

(Sorry for this thread diversion... Maybe this should be in a new thread...)

David Franklin
4th-April-2006, 07:18 PM
I already knew some of the history, and so I know that MJ came from swing music and Lindy Hop. But beyond the family history, what makes a dance a swing?Difficult to define. One definition from Skippy Blair is given here (http://www.usaswingnet.com/what_is_swing.htm). This definition doesn't seem to imply you need to be dancing to swing music to be dancing swing. But then, on her own website she takes a strong view against non-swing music in competitions:

From http://www.swingworld.com/articles/competition_music.htm):
No matter how much you enjoy dancing Swing to Hanzel Martinez's "Love Potion #9" - it is still a Cha-Cha. Of course a Swing Dancer can dance Swing to it. It might even be one of your favorite songs, but hopefully NOT in a competition.
~snip~
Would Swing music be allowed in a Cha-Cha or Hustle competition? Of course not!
~snip~
It all boils down to: "Good SWING music - SWINGS!"

I think a particular problem for MJ is I'm not sure there's any accepted action you'd normally be doing on the swung eighths anyhow. Although the feel of a swung track is undeniably different, does it really make a difference to the dancing if the music is swung hard or straight eighths?

The other problem I have with characterising MJ is that to me, lots of it looks an awful lot like hustle. And yet the rhythm is completely different. (Heck, hustle's rhythm is completely different to everything!). Of course, WCS went through a phase where lots of people were complaining about the amount of hustle creeping in.

clevedonboy
4th-April-2006, 07:19 PM
what makes a dance a swing?



It's the music man ......

Very simple terms
MJ doesn't swing cos the music tends to go 1 and 2 and 3 and 4
Lindy can swing cos the music goes 1 e and a 2 e and a 3 e and a 4 - when you triple step you use the a not the and.
My knowledge of WCS is limited the three lessons I've had seem to be using swung triples but I can see it is confusing as it is danced to music that doesn't necessarily swing.

Swing dance is the generic term to cover the dance but you can only really swing if the music tells you to (hey davidf just said that)

Whitebeard
4th-April-2006, 07:23 PM
WCS still has swing footwork, but MJ doesn't. So is it still "swing"?


MJ footwork is pretty much what we choose to make it I guess. If the music swings for me, then I'm sure that's reflected in the timing and form of my steps and body movements. It may not be elegant but I'm enjoying the feel of it.

David Franklin
4th-April-2006, 07:31 PM
It's the music man ......

Very simple terms
MJ doesn't swing cos the music tends to go 1 and 2 and 3 and 4
Lindy can swing cos the music goes 1 e and a 2 e and a 3 e and a 4 - when you triple step you use the a not the and.My understanding is that swung eighths are usually more like 1&a2&a3&a4 (i.e. division of each beat into 3rds). The division you describe (into quarter beats) is more typical of jive, or indeed, samba.

But there is also a fair amount of debate about whether to define "swing dance" strictly according to music type. After all, what do you do if a dance works well with both swung and non-swung music? Quite a few top MJ tracks are cha-chas, after all.


MJ footwork is pretty much what we choose to make it I guess. If the music swings for me, then I'm sure that's reflected in the timing and form of my steps and body movements. It may not be elegant but I'm enjoying the feel of it.Very few people do anything other than step on the main beat (the 1,2,3,4 above) - note the main beat is twice the speed of the Ceroc count. If you're only stepping on the main beat, I'm not sure how much difference it makes whether the eighth notes are divided 1&2&3&4 or 1&a2&a3&a4 or 1e&a2e&a3e&a4.

(Yes, you may feel you dance in a different way to swung music. But sad experience of watching video-clips shows it generally all looks exactly the same to an innocent bystander).

clevedonboy
4th-April-2006, 08:04 PM
As I said very simple (and yes wrong : oops: ) . The and a chant is better but my ex drumming tutor gave me the stricter chant (very confusing) 1 e and da a 2 e and da a 3 e and da a 4 .......

Geordieed
5th-April-2006, 09:57 AM
For anyone who attended the day's workshop at RebelYell with Kyle and Sarah they covered where the swing is in WCS. It was probably the best teaching day I have been to. They covered more of the social dance element of the dance, talking about the send and receive elements.

It was interesting that they taught a whip up to 3 before breaking it down to teach. Alot of the teaching that I have taken on board breaks the move from 1 to 4 then from 5 to 8. Stopping on 3 then carrying on to 4, 5 to 6 made alot more sense. By the way this is not how it was called out load, rolling or otherwise.


That's a great article from Skippy. It reminded me at the US Open there is a competition between Lindy and WCS where they go head to head. Couples swap dances as well as dancers along the way. I have seen Jordan dance Lindy before and was interested to see the Swing element come into play when I watched him dance with Rena at Southport last year.

I friend of mine who is a fantastic Lindy dancer, danced with Robert C some time ago and said that he was easily one of the best leads she had ever experienced. She has danced quite a bit in Europe and America and knows a thing or two about Lindy and other dances.

TA Guy
5th-April-2006, 10:39 AM
If I 'swing'. That is, if I go in and out in a swingy way... then I am swinging. Who cares what watchers think? :)

marty_baby
5th-April-2006, 10:59 AM
As I said very simple (and yes wrong : oops: ) . The and a chant is better but my ex drumming tutor gave me the stricter chant (very confusing) 1 e and da a 2 e and da a 3 e and da a 4 .......


...ah.... andrew - so you have been advised to CHANT as you dance - to get the rythym of the dance.....

I'll tell your Julia that - next time she complains about me doing that at the Lindy Class! :D

David Franklin
5th-April-2006, 11:04 AM
If I 'swing'. That is, if I go in and out in a swingy way... then I am swinging. Who cares what watchers think? :)The thing is, that may be your definition of swing, but it's not the commonly accepted one. Does it matter? In many ways, no, but:

It helps communication if people use the same terminology. The classic case where the terms cause confusion is in Ballroom, where "swing action" has a specific meaning in terms of body movement, and the "swing dances" are those with "swing action" (speaking very loosely, as I don't do ballroom!) Whereas musically, swing has a specific meaning (the eighth notes are "swung" towards the next beat), and traditionally the "swing dances" like Lindy were danced to music that swings. So you end up with two completely different definitions of "swing".

Depending on what you mean by "swing", if you decide MJ is a swing dance, you might decide certain moves, music or styling aren't really appropriate. It seems a lot of Lindy folks feel "if it isn't swing music, you're not dancing swing". Now I don't think MJ will ever be that prescriptive, but let's look at things the other way: we observe less-and-less MJ is danced to swing music, and there's very little new swing music coming out. So should we just accept the situation and let MJ move to the state where swing music is very much the exception, or should we say "no, MJ is a swing dance, we should try to educate the punters to enjoy swing music"?

clevedonboy
5th-April-2006, 11:07 AM
...ah.... andrew - so you have been advised to CHANT as you dance - to get the rythym of the dance.....

I'll tell your Julia that - next time she complains about me doing that at the Lindy Class! :D

Nope - that would be too much of a mouth full as it is when you're drumming it's just so that dummers like me can get used to when to hit the drum.

For any new move the chant approach is useful, you'll learn soon enough to say it to yourself rather than out load - a guy on a US forum wrote that he'd stopped saying the chant out loud when a partner asked him to speak up a little so that she could follow it too.

clevedonboy
5th-April-2006, 11:10 AM
"we should try to educate the punters to enjoy swing music"

OOOO Please Please Please let it be so

jiveknight
5th-April-2006, 11:19 AM
If you're interested here's a very brief history :

The change in the dance performed by the original Lindy Hoppers at the Savoy in the late 1920s is closely related to the change in music at that time. Jazz changed from two beats in the bar (like a march) to four beats in the bar & so it became smoother. Around the same time Louis Armstrong was becoming just about the most important Jazz musician (Duke Ellington fans might have something to say about that). Louis Armstrong is widely creditied with teaching the world to swing by subtly changing the timing of the notes he played (of course he probably nicked it off somebody else). Ellington popularised swing with his song "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing", but it wasn't until Benny Goodman took the white American population by storm that swing became the American dance, some 10 years after it began in Harlem.

Rock 'n Roll is decended from Lindy as is Boogie Woogie, Balboa and when it comes down to it so is modern jive (Jive is the English word originally used to describe Jazz). The difference is that MJ didn't stay with its origins and has used dance moves from anywhere and everywhere, partly reflecting the change in music in wider society. BUT if you see Lindy Hoppers or Rock 'N Rollers dance you will recognise many moves

Sorry if that was a bit dull. :grin:

This is pretty much the way it went. Of course like with anything you could get awfully complicated about it but swing dancing came out just as any street dance develops.

It probably came through the fox trot and charleston and then influenced by the smoother actual swing of the music, as mentioned above, the dancers in Harlem took it further, (Shorty George etc). It was also called the Jitterbug Jive. Then new kids took it on in the '50s as rock and roll (the same dancers who are in the "Benny Goodman Story" are in "Rock Around the Clock" - basically the same dance but more rockin' music).

MJ came from this and just as the jazz, swing and jive music has taken on different influences and fused or spread out so the dance has. Also it started as a "street" dance but when someone then teaches the dance they usually attempt to standardize the moves and name them so as to communicate this to their pupils and so it probably has travelled differently through the passing on of the teacher's personal styles.

I was told that MJ came to England from leroc in France. If this is true it would make sense as I have been to the Caveau De La Huchette in Paris where the American GIs are supposed to have first taught the French girls to swing and this would add another via thus changing it slightly.

Hope that makes sense, I'm still jet lagged...:nice:

I was dancing with a swing dancer in LA and through in some Ceroc and it worked by the way.

timbp
5th-April-2006, 11:21 AM
should we just accept the situation and let MJ move to the state where swing music is very much the exception, or should we say "no, MJ is a swing dance, we should try to educate the punters to enjoy swing music"?
I guess that depends what you want for the future of MJ.

I don't think MJ currently is a swing dance; it is a swing-derived dance. You can dance it to swing music, and to lots of other music.

There are various swing dances, and between them they cover swing music. I think there is other music for which there is no defined parter dance, but for which MJ is suitable.

I think MJ may be better off being a "swing-derived improvisational partner dance to modern music" (with "modern music" changing over time).

jiveknight
5th-April-2006, 11:33 AM
There are various swing dances, and between them they cover swing music. I think there is other music for which there is no defined parter dance, but for which MJ is suitable.

I think MJ may be better off being a "swing-derived improvisational partner dance to modern music" (with "modern music" changing over time).

I think that sums up well and when you mj to a swing song you tend to "swing it", if it has a latin feel you can mj with a latin feel - it is very adaptable and if you are an 'actor' you can really add that last ingredient and interpret the music you are dancing to.

Geordieed
5th-April-2006, 12:08 PM
WCS is still changing alot. The old style of the man stepping out of the slot has changed in part. There is alot more flashlighting in the dance. There has also been an effort to take out the circular motion in basics like a whip to eliminate part of the Lindy like style to move. When you dance with different partners you can see and feel the differences alot more.

pjay
5th-April-2006, 12:12 PM
I remember coming across something once upon a time that talked about one of the things that was fairly common to swing dancing was the "in & out" nature - i.e. we start apart, come together, and then go apart again (not so much in bal), but visible even when some face to face charlston is done, and blatently a part of lindy.

This is as opposed to stuff like foxtrot, waltz, tango etc which tend to be danced in in a close position.

Anyway, using this definition MJ would be a swing dance.

However as has been discussed this would only be one definition of swing dancing, and by no means it is complete.

DavidB
5th-April-2006, 12:22 PM
But then, on her own website she takes a strong view against non-swing music in competitions: I've seen several justifications for different types of music being superior for dancing than other types of music. The common thread is that "the music I like has to be better than the music I don't like".

Your own taste in music is more important to you than some teachers opinion.

Having said that, you should listen to what other people say, even if you disagree with them. You might be able to apply (or not apply) some of their reasoning to what you do.


David

Msfab
5th-April-2006, 12:27 PM
Is this helpful?
http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3wcs1.htm

David Franklin
5th-April-2006, 12:58 PM
I've seen several justifications for different types of music being superior for dancing than other types of music. The common thread is that "the music I like has to be better than the music I don't like".But of course. To paraphrase Heinlein:
"Funk is far superior to swing."
"By whose judgement?"
"Why mine! After all, whose judgement should be more important to me than my own?"

I have a feeling I may have played ODA too subtly in this thread if people think I'm personally in favour of a mass swing revival.

TA Guy
5th-April-2006, 01:23 PM
The thing is, that may be your definition of swing, but it's not the commonly accepted one. Does it matter? In many ways, no, but:

It helps communication if people use the same terminology. The classic case where the terms cause confusion is in Ballroom, where "swing action" has a specific meaning in terms of body movement, and the "swing dances" are those with "swing action" (speaking very loosely, as I don't do ballroom!) Whereas musically, swing has a specific meaning (the eighth notes are "swung" towards the next beat), and traditionally the "swing dances" like Lindy were danced to music that swings. So you end up with two completely different definitions of "swing".

Depending on what you mean by "swing", if you decide MJ is a swing dance, you might decide certain moves, music or styling aren't really appropriate. It seems a lot of Lindy folks feel "if it isn't swing music, you're not dancing swing". Now I don't think MJ will ever be that prescriptive, but let's look at things the other way: we observe less-and-less MJ is danced to swing music, and there's very little new swing music coming out. So should we just accept the situation and let MJ move to the state where swing music is very much the exception, or should we say "no, MJ is a swing dance, we should try to educate the punters to enjoy swing music"?


Back when I was ultra-keen :) Like a lot of peeps, I did do a little research into the history of Ceroc, which, of course, led right back to the Charleston and all that.
As I understand it (from swingnet), the formal definition of 'swing dancing' goes something like 'a slotted or circular dance danced to 6-beat or 8-beat music pattern.... + 4-Beat rhythm breaks....' (plus a bit more not so relevant to this discussion and some addendums http://www.usaswingnet.com/what_is_swing.htm). Using that definition then sometimes MJ is swing, sometimes it isn't. Personally I think nailing it down it A) Pointless, and B) Impossible.

I am swingy when I dance, therefore I dance swing. That'll do me.

pjay
5th-April-2006, 08:53 PM
Back when I was ultra-keen :) Like a lot of peeps, I did do a little research into the history of Ceroc, which, of course, led right back to the Charleston and all that.

So you didn't get back as far as cake walks in the late 1900's then?

TA Guy
6th-April-2006, 09:35 AM
So you didn't get back as far as cake walks in the late 1900's then?

I don't even know what a cake walk is. LOL.
I got to the bit where it more or less said the Jitterbug/Lindy/Swing routines developed were done as a parody of the Charleston and I seem to remember all the stuff before that became a bit vague, so I think I went out dancing instead :)

I should say I found it all fascinating, especially when you leave the actual dance pages (all internet research of course) and get a more rounded sociological viewpoint of what was going on. If I was twenty again and choosing careers, who knows!

MartinHarper
6th-April-2006, 03:35 PM
So you didn't get back as far as cake walks in the late 1900's then?

I liked the Salsa Bitch description of Ceroc as (paraphrasing) white dancing derived from black dancing parodying white dancing.

It'd be interesting to video a room of MJers (or those doing any dance, for that matter) and take out the sound. Can you identify where the beat is and whether it's swung, just from the way people are dancing?

Whitebeard
6th-April-2006, 04:45 PM
Is this helpful?
http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3wcs1.htm

Who builds web pages like this ?

pjay
7th-April-2006, 01:21 PM
I don't even know what a cake walk is. LOL.
I got to the bit where it more or less said the Jitterbug/Lindy/Swing routines developed were done as a parody of the Charleston and I seem to remember all the stuff before that became a bit vague, so I think I went out dancing instead :)

I should say I found it all fascinating, especially when you leave the actual dance pages (all internet research of course) and get a more rounded sociological viewpoint of what was going on. If I was twenty again and choosing careers, who knows!

Cakewalking was the first instance I know of of the black people laughing at their white masters - from late 1800's... it didn't tend to be a partner dance in the way we do them... anyway, the slave owners used to get together and have competitions with their slaves, the winners' master would win the cake (possibly, but I'm not sure, the origins of "to take the cake")... anyway the people that I learned this from tell me that we really have no idea whether or not the masters realised that this whole thing was about parody of the way the white people did things.

ducasi
8th-April-2006, 11:44 AM
... As I understand it (from swingnet), the formal definition of 'swing dancing' goes something like 'a slotted or circular dance danced to 6-beat or 8-beat music pattern.... + 4-Beat rhythm breaks....' (plus a bit more not so relevant to this discussion and some addendums http://www.usaswingnet.com/what_is_swing.htm). ... Interesting article there...

Here is the definition you paraphrase...

"Swing" is an all-American, couples, rhythm dance consisting primarily of 6-Beat and 8-Beat patterns that cover either a circular or slotted area on the dance floor. Swing incorporates the use of underarm turns, side passes, push breaks, and whips, plus "4-Beat" rhythm beaks, syncopations and extensions of the same. It seems though that they had problems with that as other dance styles could merge in with "Swing" and still be defined as Swing, so for competition use, they added this criteria...

If you can identify the dance as something OTHER than Swing, it cannot be considered part of the required percentage of Swing. It seems the main intention of this was to clearly separate Swing from Hustle.

But apparently this still wasn't good enough, and so Skippy Blair came up with this new definition after spending a year doing research...

If a Leader doing one form of Swing can dance with a Follower doing another form of Swing - with only slight adjustments in style and tempo - then it is Swing. I've got to say that's one of the most useless definitions of anything I've ever seen.

What's interesting though about all these definitions is that, by my reading, they make little mention of the music.

Thus it's quite all right to dance "swing" to pretty much any 4/4-time music... Which must include latin, tango, blues, pop, ... in fact, pretty much everything we do our MJ dancing to.

My understanding is that what sets swing music and swing dancing apart is swung-eighths or a similar "triple" in the music which is mirrored in the dance by triple-stepping in some way... Am I wrong?

What I'm wondering is, if the music doesn't have swung eighths, should dancers be doing triple-stepping swing footwork? Isn't it going against musicality to triple step when the music doesn't ask for it?

clevedonboy
8th-April-2006, 01:04 PM
Thus it's quite all right to dance "swing" to pretty much any 4/4-time music... Which must include latin, tango, blues, pop, ... in fact, pretty much everything we do our MJ dancing to.

My understanding is that what sets swing music and swing dancing apart is swung-eighths or a similar "triple" in the music which is mirrored in the dance by triple-stepping in some way... Am I wrong?



I would agree with you - even when you aren't using a triple step pattern, you'll still feel it & it may well be reflected in another part of your body



What I'm wondering is, if the music doesn't have swung eighths, should dancers be doing triple-stepping swing footwork? Isn't it going against musicality to triple step when the music doesn't ask for it?

Much "non swing" music does have a "feel" that swung triples work with e.g. "Feel Good Inc" but "Sway" by Michael Buble I find difficult as the Cha Cha Cha rhythm is so strong. That may be because I'm learning Cha Cha Cha as well so that bit of the wiring in my brain is getting agitated.

I don't know if WCS dancers modify their steps when dancing to Love Potion No 9, to reflect the rhythm, I found it dragged me to unswung triple steps when I played it just.

MartinHarper
9th-April-2006, 12:20 AM
What I'm wondering is, if the music doesn't have swung eighths, should dancers be doing triple-stepping swing footwork? Isn't it going against musicality to triple step when the music doesn't ask for it?

There are options. Probably most faithful to the music is to use "straight" non-swung triples, or you can use different footwork patterns.

Alternatively, you can use swung triples anyway. Depending on what's going on in the music, swung triples can work nicely, as if they're layered on top of the actual music. Same way some remixes take a swing song and smack a clubby beat over it and it kinda works, you can sometimes take a clubby beat and put swing footwork into it, and it works. And, sometimes it doesn't.

Mr Cool
9th-April-2006, 02:14 PM
Its the music the right track, combined with the dancers that make a dance swing.
It certainly has little to do with triple steps. (most people look silly doing triples to fast music) single stepping is a smoother way to dance swing For the majority of music.
This gives you time to add variations and musicality to suit the music.
The original savoy ballroom lindy hoppers (see the the hells A popping tapes) didnt bother with triples
.:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

clevedonboy
9th-April-2006, 03:55 PM
Its the music the right track, combined with the dancers that make a dance swing.


Umm I really don't know what on earth you are talking about. There's a type of music called swing & there are dances that go with it. That is principally what swing dance is. If people choose to include other things in the definition that's fine by me (in much the same way as Blues dancing is not danced only to Blues music). But to then go on to try to tell us that it really is defined by "the right music with the right dancers" is errant nonsense.



It certainly has little to do with triple steps. (most people look silly doing triples to fast music) single stepping is a smoother way to dance swing For the majority of music.

Single time steps in swing dance are considerably less "smooth" than triples - to confirm this just watch someone dance East Coast Swing. Single time has its place in Lindy but not in terms of a basic step danced as Rock Step Slow Slow until the music reaches in excess of 180 BPM for most dancers & 200 BPM for the better ones. I'd also contend that in WCS if you replaced the triples with singles, it would not look cool.



The original savoy ballroom lindy hoppers (see the the hells A popping tapes) didnt bother with triples
.:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:
Triple steps appear in the Jam from Hellzapoppin along with a huge amount of anything goes footwork. I discount this scene though (great as it is) as it is certainly not a representation of social Lindy.

Triple stepping is absolutely fundamental to Lindy Hop. Check out the other famous scene in Hellzapoppin at the swimming pool (watch the birdy featring Dean Collins) or the recreation by Spike Lee in Malcolm X ( http://poy.no/files/vintage/malcolm x.avi ) and you'll see lots of triples, doubles and charlestons (& Flying Home is pretty fast.)

The step step step pattern is really popular because it allows easier travel across the floor. As an example take the Lindy Turn - in triple time rock step triple step (180 degree turn) step step (180 degree turn during those steps) triple step, smooth and grounded, in single time Rock Step Slow (180 degree turn) Step Step (180 degree turn during those steps) Slow - a valid move but much more difficult to pull off in the first place and it has a definite "lurch" to it as the intitial turn on the first slow is more of a pivot.

Lindsay
9th-April-2006, 11:01 PM
:yeah:
I think there's a confusion between (1) what music is swing, and (2) what makes swing dance music "swing". Re. the latter, not all swing dance music really 'swings' - in the musical definition of the word. Frankie Manning gave a talk about this at Herrang, and some of the earlier posts on this thread are fairly accurate.

Mr Cool
10th-April-2006, 06:50 PM
It is not the (SIMPLE) mechanics of the dance that make it swing you can teach dancers a lindy turn and a circle in an hour but they won't swing.
It is the connection between the dancers and the music, their style and musicality that make it swing.
Too often I see so called lindy hoppers at events like
The Swing jam, Savoy ball, Camp Savoy, Woodside Sultans of Swing yes I have been to them all.
People go through choreographed moves using triple steps and quite frankly they resemble children doing a bouncy version of ring a ring a roses :rofl: :rofl:
The dance is based on eight and six beat moves you can dance it in single double triple or half time better still a mixture of them all.
Many people get distracted trying to fit in triples most fit them in at the expense of musicality.



I am always amazed by the fact that teachers teach triples and then dance socialy without them.
Steve Mitcheal and Ryan for example :respect:
As for West coast the slow music lends itself to many footwork variations otherwise you may fall asleep from boredom watch Paul Warden. :respect:

Look forward to seeing you Dance in time to Sing sing with Triples :cheers: :cheers:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

MartinHarper
11th-April-2006, 01:35 AM
I absolutely agree that you don't need to dance triples to dance Lindy, but:


Look forward to seeing you Dance in time to Sing sing with Triples.

I'm not sure how you'd be able to tell. Lindy triples are often slidy, and neither foot ever leaves the floor, you don't necessarilly have complete weight transfers, and at high tempos it's all happening very fast. For me, the defining features of a Lindy triple are that both feet move, and that weight gets transferred over the course of two beats, rather than on a single beat. Those features remain at high tempos.


most people look silly doing triples to fast music

I have seen folks dancing distinct triples at excessively high tempos, but I think they were doing Boogie Woogie, not Lindy. I'm not great at distinguishing between different swing dances, so I could well be wrong. I agree that it looks funny, but I think that's kinda the point. Besides, swing dances have a tradition of looking silly: any dance with Suzy Qs is not meant to be taken too seriously.

pjay
11th-April-2006, 01:56 AM
As part of a Lindy Troupe we did a lot of work on being able to do triples at very high speeds - not that we always danced is that way, but as part of our development - taking a whole pile of technique work that we did and then trying to keep up the technique when the music gets really fast.

I think the fastest we ever got pushed to (with tripples) was a little over 300 bpm (if you ask me this should be strictly balboa teritory).

Andreas
11th-April-2006, 09:16 AM
a little over 300 bpm (if you ask me this should be strictly balboa teritory).
I'd agree with that. Sound silly enough to have me involved, though. Except, my Lindy is more than rusty and Balboa needs just as much work :D :blush:

clevedonboy
11th-April-2006, 10:17 AM
Too often I see so called lindy hoppers .. People go through choreographed moves using triple steps and quite frankly they resemble children doing a bouncy version of ring a ring a roses :rofl: :rofl:


So your comments are based on seeing dancers (probably beginners / improvers like myself) not producing a great performance worthy of somebody who has been dancing for many years.

Swing Dance (noun) is danced to Swing Music (noun) you are appearing to confuse this with the verb - e.g. "man that Cat sure can swing". I would contend that anyone who is dancing Lindy no matter how badly is dancing a swing dance.



The dance is based on eight and six beat moves you can dance it in single double triple or half time better still a mixture of them all.
Many people get distracted trying to fit in triples most fit them in at the expense of musicality.


I agree - and that's what teachers will tell their class, if people don't learn well, hey ho what do you do?



Many people get distracted trying to fit in triples most fit them in at the expense of musicality.


But now we're just back to a question of experience & technique - I've only been dancing Lindy for a short time but I wouldn't dream of starting to dance to a track with the intent of triple stepping all the way through, that would be dull. But I'd still be aware of the swung triples in the music - e.g. a slide can be a single continous movement or it can have a twitch (for want of a better word that I can't clutch at the moment) on the and



Look forward to seeing you Dance in time to Sing sing with Triples


Personally, I'd struggle at the moment but how about Kevin & Carla dancing to Bei Mir Bist Du Schon which hits 200 bpm (broadly in line with Sing Sing Sing), they appear to have no trouble & I wouldn't question their musicality for a moment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3804233447881861652&q=lindy+circle&pl=true

(and yes I do note that they use more than just triples)

pjay
11th-April-2006, 12:19 PM
I'd agree with that. Sound silly enough to have me involved, though. Except, my Lindy is more than rusty and Balboa needs just as much work :D :blush:


That's ok, my Lindy is pretty rusty (it has been 4 months), and I think I've danced bal only once or twice, so really, wha do I know...

In saying that I had a lovely dance this evening which was a combination of Lindy & Modern Jive.... it was lovely.

Mr Cool
11th-April-2006, 11:51 PM
Personally, I'd struggle at the moment but how about Kevin & Carla dancing to Bei Mir Bist Du Schon which hits 200 bpm (broadly in line with Sing Sing Sing), they appear to have no trouble & I wouldn't question their musicality for a moment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3804233447881861652&q=lindy+circle&pl=true

(and yes I do note that they use more than just triples)[/QUOTE]

Hi thanks :flower: I loved the Video clips such talented dancers.:respect: :respect:
Great musicality which i think is key to any dance, I just love flash foot work that fits the music.
I didnt see many rock step, triple step, step step triple steps, Ha :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Whitebeard
12th-April-2006, 12:21 AM
[quote=cleveden boy]Personally, I'd struggle at the moment but how about Kevin & Carla dancing to Bei Mir Bist Du Schon which hits 200 bpm (broadly in line with Sing Sing Sing), they appear to have no trouble & I wouldn't question their musicality for a moment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3804233447881861652&q=lindy+circle&pl=true

(and yes I do note that they use more than just triples)



Hi thanks :flower: I loved the Video clips such talented dancers.:respect: :respect:
Great musicality which i think is key to any dance, I just love flash foot work that fits the music.
I didnt see many rock step, triple step, step step triple steps, Ha :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

That's the best lindy I've seen to date. Really fun and funky, and no hint of the dreaded bounce.

I might just manage to do something to that slower section towards the end.

MartinHarper
12th-April-2006, 12:43 AM
I didnt see many rock step, triple step, step step triple steps, Ha

Well, I saw more triple steps than I saw single steps. I don't think they'd have looked any smoother if they replaced the triples with singles - quite the opposite, in fact.

clevedonboy
12th-April-2006, 09:51 AM
I didnt see many rock step, triple step, step step triple steps, Ha

The first thing that Kevin does is lead a 6 count basic step rock step triple step triple step (modified by left foot tapping wide but it's still a triple). After 23 seconds he leads a 6 count change places & those feet of his are doing things that I'd describe as triple steps. At 30 seconds there's a very stylish lindy turn variant - 8 count pattern using triples. There are many more examples.

Again all I can conclude is that you are talking about is that badly performed triple step patterns look bad, which I agree with completely. But I think you're missing a point somewhere. When we begin learning to triple step most of us lurch from foot to foot. After a bit of practice that smooths down into eventually minimal movements (this is where I think I am now). Those who've gone a bit further gain confidence and their triple steps can be more intricate - if they choose , but it's still on the same timing - they are after all still dancing on the beat.

pjay
12th-April-2006, 12:03 PM
I didnt see many rock step, triple step, step step triple steps, Ha

As a note, Kevin is tending to use a slightly different style for his rock step... this is still Lindy, and quite common among some of the more talented Lindy dancers I've known... but there is still a lot of the basic Lindy structure there.

Andreas
12th-April-2006, 01:53 PM
That's ok, my Lindy is pretty rusty (it has been 4 months), and I think I've danced bal only once or twice, so really, wha do I know...

In saying that I had a lovely dance this evening which was a combination of Lindy & Modern Jive.... it was lovely.
You didn't happen to be lucky enough to dance with Ania, did you? If not, look her up! She is a fabulous dancer. Neglected her MJ a bit in favour of Swing but terrific musicality, possibly best in NZ, and you need to see her on the loose doing fast Swing! :respect: :respect: Ania used to dance and last year also started teaching for Paul Tanuvasa at Waitakere. Now that he has jumped boat I am not sure if she is still there or has move over to Le Bop, too.

Mr Cool
12th-April-2006, 06:21 PM
As a note, Kevin is tending to use a slightly different style for his rock step... this is still Lindy, and quite common among some of the more talented Lindy dancers I've known... but there is still a lot of the basic Lindy structure there.

Nothing basic about this guys dancing. Top Class.:respect:
Swing for me is about musicality style and footwork not regimented bouncy routines we see so often
:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

pjay
13th-April-2006, 02:03 PM
You didn't happen to be lucky enough to dance with Ania, did you? If not, look her up! She is a fabulous dancer. Neglected her MJ a bit in favour of Swing but terrific musicality, possibly best in NZ, and you need to see her on the loose doing fast Swing! :respect: :respect: Ania used to dance and last year also started teaching for Paul Tanuvasa at Waitakere. Now that he has jumped boat I am not sure if she is still there or has move over to Le Bop, too.

Is that how you spell Ania name... I though it might be Anya, or Anja... yes, she is fantastic, if you've been reading my thread on the CMJ forum about dancing in Auckland you'll see me referring to "two new favourite Auckland dancers," she is one of them. She is dancing with Le Bop now, and has a 6mo daughter Emily.

Had a lovely dance with her the other night - combination of Lindy & MJ :).

Andreas
13th-April-2006, 02:38 PM
Is that how you spell Ania name... I though it might be Anya, or Anja... yes, she is fantastic, if you've been reading my thread on the CMJ forum about dancing in Auckland you'll see me referring to "two new favourite Auckland dancers," she is one of them. She is dancing with Le Bop now, and has a 6mo daughter Emily.

Had a lovely dance with her the other night - combination of Lindy & MJ :).
Polish origin, hence the different spelling. ;)

Great, you certainly met the best female dancer around Akl. Say hi if you see her, please. :flower:

pjay
13th-April-2006, 02:52 PM
Polish origin, hence the different spelling. ;)

Great, you certainly met the best female dancer around Akl. Say hi if you see her, please. :flower:

I will certainly say hi for you next time I see her.

And given that she is rating very highly on my enjoy dancing with, I will probably be looking for opportunities :nice:

Lynn
15th-April-2006, 11:31 PM
I tend to 'feel' musical timing rather than consciously think about it too much so I'm not speaking with much knowledge here...
Much "non swing" music does have a "feel" that swung triples work with e.g. "Feel Good Inc" but "Sway" by Michael Buble I find difficult as the Cha Cha Cha rhythm is so strong. That may be because I'm learning Cha Cha Cha as well so that bit of the wiring in my brain is getting agitated. . I overheard the local Lindy beginners class being taught that 'the triple in Lindy is the same timing as the cha cha cha'. I don't know why but this felt wrong to me. Is it? And can someone explain why?

And I thought I heard somewhere that Swing music has 16 beats to the bar and that is what makes it 'swing'?

I'd love to learn more about the timing of music and learn some theory to help me understand the 'feel' that I have.

spindr
16th-April-2006, 12:50 AM
I tend to 'feel' musical timing rather than consciously think about it too much so I'm not speaking with much knowledge here...I overheard the local Lindy beginners class being taught that 'the triple in Lindy is the same timing as the cha cha cha'. I don't know why but this felt wrong to me. Is it? And can someone explain why?
'cause it's wrong :)

A cha-cha-cha has a symmetic split, i.e. 0.5 beat, 0.5 beat, 1 beat.

A (jive) triple-step has an assymetric "split" 0.75 of a beat, 0.25 of a beat and 1 beat.


And I thought I heard somewhere that Swing music has 16 beats to the bar and that is what makes it 'swing'?
Nah, it's four-four (4 beats to the bar).
A lot of swing is based on a swing chorus AABA -- where each A or B is 32 bars (four lots of eight beats).


I'd love to learn more about the timing of music and learn some theory to help me understand the 'feel' that I have.
Well, a bit brief, but might be a start to have a look at http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/dance_styles.html -- it does try to explain the musical structure of some of the key dances.

Cheers,
SpinDr.

clevedonboy
16th-April-2006, 08:44 AM
The 16 beats that Lynn is touching on may not be entirely daft though - Saxylady keeps reminding me of 4 bar sections in swing music which would be 16 beats - keeping track of those is part of the key to improving musically (but I haven't mastered that yet!)

WRT the triple being the same as the Cha Cha Cha - oooo nooo. As they're beginners though this may explain their confusion

Lynn
16th-April-2006, 02:19 PM
The 16 beats that Lynn is touching on may not be entirely daft though - Saxylady keeps reminding me of 4 bar sections in swing music which would be 16 beats - keeping track of those is part of the key to improving musically (but I haven't mastered that yet!) I can't quite remember what it was I was told, will check. It was a someone who understands music and he was explaining why different music had different feels - to do with the structure of the music, what beat the drummer marks etc. But its all fairly new to me, thinking about music in that way, rather than just instinctively.

Thanks guys for explaining the why the cha cha timing felt wrong - to me it just felt like the cha cha cha are all equal length, wheras the triple step isn't. It gives a totally different feel.


WRT the triple being the same as the Cha Cha Cha - oooo nooo. As they're beginners though this may explain their confusionNo, this was the teacher who was teaching the beginners. I think he's figured out that its not the same now, at least I hope so!:rolleyes:

Lynn
16th-April-2006, 09:46 PM
OK, I was wrong with my recollection of 16, it was 12 - as in 4 beats to the bar, each beat split into 3 - therefore 12. Something called compound timing.

And that's what makes it swing. (Apparently. I also told about what makes music rock and where you put the emphasis on different beats etc but I've still a lot to learn!)

Saxylady
17th-April-2006, 11:18 AM
OK, I was wrong with my recollection of 16, it was 12 - as in 4 beats to the bar, each beat split into 3 - therefore 12. Something called compound timing.

And that's what makes it swing. (Apparently. I also told about what makes music rock and where you put the emphasis on different beats etc but I've still a lot to learn!)


Kind of - it's not written in compound time and the pulse is four crochet beats in a bar, but the swung quavers (of which there would be 8 in a bar) are played with the feel of compound time - like a nursery rhyme rhythm - "Jack and Jill went up the hill", for instance. "Jack-and-Jill" being the triple step timing.

Lindsay
17th-April-2006, 11:46 AM
Kind of - it's not written in compound time and the pulse is four crochet beats in a bar, but the swung quavers (of which there would be 8 in a bar) are played with the feel of compound time - like a nursery rhyme rhythm - "Jack and Jill went up the hill", for instance. "Jack-and-Jill" being the triple step timing.

Furthermore in slower tracks each crochet can be split into 3 in compound time (=>12 bts/bar) "jack-and-a-jill..."

Saxylady
17th-April-2006, 11:59 AM
Furthermore in slower tracks each crochet can be split into 3 in compound time (=>12 bts/bar) "jack-and-a-jill..."

That would be (I think) more of a 12 / 8 blues, where you do hear three distinct taps per beat - not sure which dance is best for that sort of music - any ideas?

Saxylady
17th-April-2006, 12:32 PM
Just to add - "Feeling Good" (Buble) is an example of that style of music.

Lynn
17th-April-2006, 12:48 PM
That would be (I think) more of a 12 / 8 blues, where you do hear three distinct taps per beat - not sure which dance is best for that sort of music - any ideas?I think what Lindsay is saying is what my friend was describing as he said it was 12/8 time. So that's not swing then?

Thanks for the info btw.:flower:

Saxylady
17th-April-2006, 01:22 PM
So that's not swing then?



12 / 8 time is not the same as what we call swing (which is 4 / 4) - 12 / 8 has an underlying pattern of four sets of even triplets per bar.

For instance, your first bar of swing time might go:
one, two, three-and-four (step, step, tri-ple step)

your first bar of 12 / 8 would feel more like:
one-and-a two-and-a three-and-a four-and-a

Whether one could dance a swing style dance to it is another matter - I find it difficult myself and end up just doing a made up kind of hybrid dance instead.

Lindsay
17th-April-2006, 08:55 PM
Take 4/4 timing... If you divide each beat exactly in half, you've got eighths. I was talking about in swing where the first part of each beat is a little longer than the second. Sometimes this is described by saying that the beat is really subdivided into three parts, and swing eighth notes are the first and third parts of the beat. Not only does swing involve altering the placement of eighth notes within the beat, but it can sometimes involve the placement of the beats themselves. Musicians sometimes play "in front of" or "on top of" the beat, so they can anticipate slightly and play everything a fraction of beat early. This tends to give the music a sense of forward momentum. At other times, a musician may play behind the beat, meaning that they delay everything slightly, giving the music more of a relaxed feel.

clevedonboy
18th-April-2006, 08:46 AM
Before anyone gets confused by the concept of breaking the beat into 3 parts, have a look at this image
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lights/3059/basicjazz1.gif
This is the drum notation for one of the very basic swing rhythms - the cymbal line at the top is key. in words it says 1 2a 3 4a (repeated over and over). On the 2a & the 4a there are two strikes on the cymbal but the second is delayed compared to strict time

you can hear the rhythm http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lights/3059/basicjazz1.wav

jezzyjj
23rd-April-2006, 03:03 PM
Going back to original question
A swing dance is one done to swing music and which captures the feel of the music, whether or not someone is good, bad, bouncy, smooth, triples steps or not is not really relevant. Do they [assuming we mean partner dancing] look like they are dancing to the [swing] music that's playing. And I don't mean simply dancing to the tempo as many/most dancers do. If they do dance to the feel of the track and the music swings then it's swing dancing.
One can always get nit picky and describe the type of swing dance, but that wasn't the orig. question.

I would also say it's almost irrelevant really as from observation most dancers will do salsa or merengue if it sounds latin, Lindy if it sounds jazzy and a MJer will jive to a to a tin can falling down stairs.

Donna
24th-April-2006, 03:14 PM
I would also say it's almost irrelevant really as from observation most dancers will do salsa or merengue if it sounds latin, Lindy if it sounds jazzy

This is why I prefer to learn other styles so whenever a different track comes on, you can make it look different everytime.



and a MJer will jive to a to a tin can falling down stairs


:rofl: I like that!

ducasi
24th-April-2006, 05:38 PM
I would also say it's almost irrelevant really as from observation most dancers will do salsa or merengue if it sounds latin, Lindy if it sounds jazzy and a MJer will jive to a to a tin can falling down stairs. Is the implication that MJ dancers not real dancers? :confused:

I'd say that "most" dancers don't know salsa and merengue and lindy.

Maybe one or two, but relatively few will know all three...

spindr
24th-April-2006, 07:12 PM
I'd say that "most" dancers don't know salsa and merengue and lindy.
All the good ones do :whistle:

TA Guy
25th-April-2006, 12:24 AM
All the good ones do :whistle:

Don't you mean:
"All the good ones think they do" :whistle:

jezzyjj
28th-April-2006, 03:53 AM
Is the implication that MJ dancers not real dancers? :confused:

No not at all, it's a reference to no matter what the rhythm or style of music, many MJers still think it's 'jive'-able. Lindy hoppers are far more discriminating as anything that sounds jazzy is lindyable.:wink:

clevedonboy
28th-April-2006, 09:10 AM
Lindy hoppers are far more discriminating as anything that sounds jazzy is lindyable.:wink:

I hope that's supposed to be ironic .........

ducasi
28th-April-2006, 09:16 AM
No not at all, it's a reference to no matter what the rhythm or style of music, many MJers still think it's 'jive'-able. Lindy hoppers are far more discriminating as anything that sounds jazzy is lindyable.:wink:
I think the reality is that MJ is just a very adaptable dance.

Where other dance forms fall by the wayside because their footwork becomes a foot-not-work, the typical MJ dancer adapts (the more advanced incorporate), and dances on...

EDIT: This is one of the reasons I don't like the word "Jive" in the name "Modern Jive", as often there's very little of "Jive" left in the dance we do...

jezzyjj
28th-April-2006, 02:06 PM
I hope that's supposed to be ironic .........
It was.

jezzyjj
28th-April-2006, 02:14 PM
I think the reality is that MJ is just a very adaptable dance.

Where other dance forms fall by the wayside because their footwork becomes a foot-not-work, the typical MJ dancer adapts (the more advanced incorporate), and dances on...
EDIT: This is one of the reasons I don't like the word "Jive" in the name "Modern Jive", as often there's very little of "Jive" left in the dance we do...:yeah:
Which is exactly what I said either above or elsewhere. Once it changes beyond a certain point, you really need to give it a different name to clarify things. Other wise the names become pointless and you may as call everything dance.
Though which dance forms do you think have dropped over the edge?