Assimilating Salseros

[Gus]

Over the last month or so of teaching at Chester I've noticed a fair few Salsa dancers trying out MJ. As I've tried explaining to them, they will intially struggle as they naturally try to impose thier footwork on MJ. However, as they progress they tend to find that their structured style gives them a big advantage.

My problem is that as a non Salsa dancer I don't really know what areas they struggle with or which aspects/moves of MJ work best for an experienced Salsa dancer. It would help me to make their transistion easier if I knew some of this. Any advice from those of you who have come across the great divide?

[TiggsTours]

I was told by a pure salsa dancer once who tried MJ that the main difference, after taking the footwork out, was that salsa dancers dance on the off beat, whereas MJ dancers dance on the beat.

[Gus]

I was told by a pure salsa dancer once who tried MJ that the main difference, after taking the footwork out, was that salsa dancers dance on the off beat, whereas MJ dancers dance on the beat.UG! And one can easily overcome (that fairly fundamental) difference how? :confused:

[TiggsTours]

UG! And one can easily overcome (that fairly fundamental) difference how? :confused:
Heh! You only asked what the differences were, not how to overcome them! :wink:

[clevedonboy]

Salsa is danced on the on and off beat 1-2-3 5-6-7. They may well be tuned into this and may find it confusing moving on only the strong beats. If they're good dancers though, I wouldn't expect that to last very long.

[drathzel]

My problem is that as a non Salsa dancer I don't really know what areas they struggle with or which aspects/moves of MJ work best for an experienced Salsa dancer. It would help me to make their transistion easier if I knew some of this. Any advice from those of you who have come across the great divide?

If any one can give advise please do, in my area, we have lots of salsa so i would say 75% of the people that come to my class have tried it and it hinders their learning of ceroc, if anyone has any tips i can use to help my class with this i would be really grateful!:hug:

[Andy McGregor]

This off beat thing confuses me. There's the beat, it goes 1,2,3,4. We mostly use beat 1 & 3 in basic MJ. So are beats 2 & 4 the off beat. To me they're just other beats. I'd guess that the off beat is the bit that's off the beat or in between the beats, but I'm just guessing.

[Sparkles]

One of the other differences (depending on what type of Salsa you learn) is that quite often the turn under the arm for the ladies is 'prepared' by the guy giving a signal in the opposite direction to that in which he wishes her to turn - so if he wants her to turn under his arm to the right on the 5-6-7 he will prepare her by motioning to the left with their joining hand on the 1-2-3 count.
This can be very confusing for female salsa dancers learning ceroc as there isn't the same preparartoy gesture.

[Donna]

Salsa is danced on the on and off beat 1-2-3 5-6-7. They may well be tuned into this and may find it confusing moving on only the strong beats. If they're good dancers though, I wouldn't expect that to last very long.

I tried Salsa oncethis guy I was taught by was supposed to be one of the best teachers up here (Only bad thing about him? His dress sense...he always wore baby cack coloured trousers! :sick: )

I think if you've done partner dancing before you can manage anything. It's just trying to grasp the timing. On my first lesson with him, we had a dance when everybody had gone.... and I could follow him no problem!! Just kept counting in my head 123-567- was really good! Shame he left the country. I will miss him terribly.....and his baby cack coloured trousers!!! :rofl: :drool:

[TiggsTours]

This off beat thing confuses me. There's the beat, it goes 1,2,3,4. We mostly use beat 1 & 3 in basic MJ. So are beats 2 & 4 the off beat. To me they're just other beats. I'd guess that the off beat is the bit that's off the beat or in between the beats, but I'm just guessing.
Got me flumoxed too. I just dance to the music, not being a musician, this on & off beat makes no sense to me whatsoever, off beat to me means out of time, but I know that to a musician it means something totally different.


One of the other differences (depending on what type of Salsa you learn) is that quite often the turn under the arm for the ladies is 'prepared' by the guy giving a signal in the opposite direction to that in which he wishes her to turn - so if he wants her to turn under his arm to the right on the 5-6-7 he will prepare her by motioning to the left with their joining hand on the 1-2-3 count.
This can be very confusing for female salsa dancers learning ceroc as there isn't the same preparartoy gesture.
Good point! I know when I've done salsa too, that I have a tendancy not to turn far enough, as there are quite a few subtle leads that in jive mean a turn out, and in salsa mean a full turn. There again, in Lindy I have a tendancy to overturn, which also comes from dancing jive. Its not easy being a woman! :tears:

[Donna]

[QUOTE=TiggsTours]Got me flumoxed too. I just dance to the music, not being a musician, this on & off beat makes no sense to me whatsoever, off beat to me means out of time, but I know that to a musician it means something totally different.

I thought the offbeat was on &. :confused: Doesn't mean not dancing in time to the music..... that's just somebody who has no rhythm! :nice:

[mikeyr]

There should be no problem for salsa dancers coming to MJ. I did Salsa for a number of years in the early 90's and apart from the lack of proper footwork, I had no problem at all picking up MJ. There are different styles of Salsa which have their own little nuances, New York & Cuban Styles for instance. Other latin styles are more difficult to assimilate because they start on Beat two. Go from MJ to Cha Cha, Mambo and see how hard it is to retrain your ear.

Dancing offbeat generally means dancing off the beat or the bit between the beat. Offbeat is musical term meaning beat 2 & 4 like Reggae, ska etc.

[Donna]

[QUOTE=mikeyr]There should be no problem for salsa dancers coming to MJ. I did Salsa for a number of years in the early 90's and apart from the lack of proper footwork, I had no problem at all picking up MJ.

Most of the moves are similar anyway but at least there is more structure to salsa. The footwork is better, so for salsa dancers trying out MJ, stepping on every beat whilst doing similar moves to those in salsa should be a piece of cake.

[David Franklin]

This off beat thing confuses me. There's the beat, it goes 1,2,3,4. We mostly use beat 1 & 3 in basic MJ. So are beats 2 & 4 the off beat. To me they're just other beats. I'd guess that the off beat is the bit that's off the beat or in between the beats, but I'm just guessing.This is the kind of thing I wanted to talk about in that "other" discussion about musical knowledge. I find it all very confusing as well.

My understanding agrees with yours that 1,3 are the down beat and 2,4 are the off beat or up beat. The kind of thing that has me baffled is when someone explains WCS and MJ use the opposite beat. Because I don't think I dance either particularly off time, and I've never been conscious of this difference.

When I thought about it some more, I found what I was clearest about was the end of a move - WCS moves end on an even (off) beat, MJ moves end on an odd beat. But then that leads me to believe we don't actually move on the odd beats - we stop on the odd beats. If you think about how MJ is actually taught, this kind of makes sense, but I find it counterintuitive.

I asked DavidB about it, and if I'm not misquoting him, the detailed timing in MJ is usually something like:

On 1: {stopped}
On &: {start strengthening the connection}
On a: {lead the follow to move}
On 2: {movement}
On &: {start strengthening the connection}
On a: {lead the follow to stop}
On 3: {stopped}

(I'm not sure the &a should be taken as indicating particularly exact timing)

I think this continual leading of starts and stops is why he characterises MJ being a lot more about constantly changing between compression and tension than WCS is - I think compression is relatively infrequent in WCS.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Well, just to muddy the waters, it depends on which kind of Salsa. Because there's 'on the one' Salsa, danced 1-2-3, 5-6-7, and 'on the two' Salsa danced 2-3-4, 6-7-8.

I'd say the biggest difference is that in MJ (also in Lindy and WCS) the moves aren't synchronised with the musical bars, since we have moves that are an odd number of 'counts' long (making any multiple of two beats). In Salsa a move will always end at the end of a bar or in fact the end of a pair of bars since that's when the footwork pattern repeats.

So perhaps Salsa dancers have to learn to dance 'off the bar' rather than 'off the beat'.

[jivecat]

Seeing as I'm aways being told off for trying to spin in salsa instead of stepping the turn I'm assuming they would initially find spinning quite difficult as it doesn't seem to be expected in salsa. Or is that just at a basic level?

[mikeyr]

In Western music generally the rhythm and beat(tempo) are usually closely aligned, where you have a dance style where the specific footwork relates to a particular beat count it would considered dancing off beat by stepping wrongly for that beat, so identification of the first beat in a bar is crucial.

In the case of MJ this is not required and it is fine to start/finish a move on any beat, hence we have moves that are both an odd or even number of beats.

Dancing off the beat (as iam sure a lot of ladies will tell us) is kinda like just missing the beat and thus being out of snc with the rhythm.

[drathzel]

Seeing as I'm aways being told off for trying to spin in salsa instead of stepping the turn I'm assuming they would initially find spinning quite difficult as it doesn't seem to be expected in salsa. Or is that just at a basic level?

From what i can tell (my limited experience of one class and two freestyles) You always "step out" the turn!

[Donna]

From what i can tell (my limited experience of one class and two freestyles) You always "step out" the turn!

There doesn't seem to be much spinning going on in any latin dance (well, in the basic stuff anyway.)

[Zebra Woman]

From what i can tell (my limited experience of one class and two freestyles) You always "step out" the turn!

IME You step the turn if it's clockwise (prepare on the 1,2, 3 *, and turn on the 5, 6, 7) and spin it (prepare on the 1,2 spin on the 3) if it's anti-clockwise.

I may be wrong, it's been a long long time....

* IMO There is a 'prepare' in the Ceroc turns and spins, it's just much faster and more subtle.

I would say a transition from Salsa to MJ would be a breeze compared to the other way around.

[David Franklin]

In Western music generally the rhythm and beat(tempo) are usually closely aligned, where you have a dance style where the specific footwork relates to a particular beat count it would considered dancing off beat by stepping wrongly for that beat, so identification of the first beat in a bar is crucial.

In the case of MJ this is not required and it is fine to start/finish a move on any beat, hence we have moves that are both an odd or even number of beats. Not sure I'd agree. In MJ we only count alternate beats, and I think the accepted norm is that count falls on the downbeats. So every move is autmatically an even number of beats, although the count may be odd (c.f. Skippy Blair's Universal Unit System in WCS). As far as I can see, there's no real reason you couldn't dance on the upbeats rather than the downbeats, but I think most would find it disconcerting.

If you want a dance where a move can really start on any beat, I think you need to be looking at Hustle.

On the other note, it's interesting that Salsa teaches women to step the turn, and yet in my experience good Salsa dancers are much better spinners than you'll see often in MJ.

[El Salsero Gringo]

On the other note, it's interesting that Salsa teaches women to step the turn, and yet in my experience good Salsa dancers are much better spinners than you'll see often in MJ.Where does all this "Salsa doesn't have spins" guff come from? It is taught - and David's right about one thing. My local salsa class won't admit you to the *intermediate* level class until the women can complete a perfect double spin in two beats (i.e. a single 'ceroc' count), and the men can lead one correctly. And I'd never seen a woman execute perfect (unstepped) 10-turn spins until I watched two of the instructors dancing together.

[spindr]

"Circular" Modern Jive is probably more similar to Merengue than (cross-body) Salsa -- especially if you were to teach the Aussie style footwork (stepping on every beat).

Anyway, as mentioned before there's more "preparation" than in MJ, e.g. if hands are kept at waist level then you'll generally keep dancing a basic. Hands are often dropped slightly below waist level -- as a prep for bringing them high(er) later in the same move. Moves are often more "dense" -- in terms of hand changes, and movement, etc.

A lot of basic turns are stepped -- it keeps beginners on time. However, there are a lot more turns that are pirouettes (not many spins though) -- and a lot of multiple turns -- both leaders and followers. Turns are not often done with the MJ "twiddley" hands over the head -- but are "driven" by the leader (prep a beat early for a multiple turn :) ). My feeling is that turn technique is better in salsa than in MJ -- ladies keeping arms in an L-shape, forearm in front of the head seems to be relatively standard??

Similar moves to cross-body Salsa might be Manhatten variations?

Oh and most non-beginner classes seem to include styling tips, arm movements, decorations, etc., etc.

Cheers,
SpinDr

P.S. Lee our Monday teacher will be at the London dance exhibition -- if you ask him nicely he might show you his multiple spins -- I lost count after 5 or so last week.

[frodo]

...
I would say a transition from Salsa to MJ would be a breeze compared to the other way around.
Certainly if it's a one way transition. An issue can be preserving the Salsa in the face of the much more flexible MJ.

[jiveknight]

This off beat thing confuses me. There's the beat, it goes 1,2,3,4. We mostly use beat 1 & 3 in basic MJ. So are beats 2 & 4 the off beat. To me they're just other beats. I'd guess that the off beat is the bit that's off the beat or in between the beats, but I'm just guessing.

In music 1 and 3 are the "on" beat and 2 and 4 are the "off" beat. I believe this is because originally classical music emphasised the 1 and 3. Then swing and jazz (and later rock) emphasised the 2 and 4, hence the "off" or "after" beat.

All the beats are there, some are just emphasised and of course once a musician or dancer knows this they can play with these, interplay etc, for effect.

[JonD]

In MJ we only count alternate beats, and I think the accepted norm is that count falls on the downbeats.
Phew. That's my understanding but, as a "music theory pygmy" I was getting confused. I've heard the alternate beats referred to "dance beats" which equates to 2 "musical beats".


Where does all this "Salsa doesn't have spins" guff come from? {snip} ... women can complete a perfect double spin in two beatsIt's my experience that more good Salsa dancers are accurate at spinning and double turns than good MJ dancers. I find accurately leading a double turn (as distinct from a spin) in one "dance beat" very difficult - for some reason I'm better at it with a right hand lead than a left hand lead. I think it's more difficult in MJ because there seems to be less time to prepare (in Salsa 1,2,3 into "turn arm", tension and pause on "4", lead on "5" (or a smidgen earlier) and follower turns on "6,7") - I'm MJ I'm normally slightly late with my lead meaning only very skillful followers can compensate and make the turn without arriving late or feeling like they've been violently stirred! (I need to practice, practice, practice until the timing becomes instinctive).


I would say a transition from Salsa to MJ would be a breeze compared to the other way around.That gives me hope! My Salsa is truly terrible - partly because I have a mental block about the timing of leads. I've seen good Salsa leads struggle with MJ; I suspect that is because of the lack of preparation time and less definitive "reference points" in the music. However, most of the good Salsa followers seem to have made the transition relatively easily.

[DavidB]

Off-beat can mean different things to different people. But if you say 'off-time' then most people know what you are talking about.

An interesting question is "why does dancing off-time feel wrong?"

[JonD]

An interesting question is "why does dancing off-time feel wrong?"

As far as I can see, there's no real reason you couldn't dance on the upbeats rather than the downbeats, but I think most would find it disconcerting.
Interesting. About a year ago I managed to dance an entire track on the "off beat" - if I'd meant to do it then it would have been devilishly clever but I'm embarassed to admit that I didn't realise until my partner grinned impishly and pointed it out. (Just one of those nights)! It didn't feel strange to me in that track and yet I'm not renowned for having trouble finding the beat - I'll play with it, slur across beats and such like but I normally know where it is.

It's strange that for the duration of that track being on the off-beat felt perfectly normal to me and yet I'm really uncomfortable with a follower who is off-time. Something to do with heart rhythms do you think? And why is it more likely that we'll get "off time" if we're dancing faster? (Try dancing off-time deliberately and I bet you go faster than the beat rather than slower - thank you Mr Pete Trimmer for pointing that out to me).

[Zebra Woman]

Where does all this "Salsa doesn't have spins" guff come from?

:yeah: I would say there are more spins, and it's certainly more tiring than MJ.

8 years ago I was taught Cuban style salsa and then New York style, they involved masses of fast spins. The woman has half the time to complete the spin compared to MJ, and double spins were expected. As I remember the standard of spinning was far higher at salsa, partly because more people were dancing 5 nights a week.

When I moved between the two dances (I was a beginner at both MJ and salsa at the same time) I do remember having two problems at MJ caused by salsa:

One - I was spinning way too fast at MJ and arriving there only to stand like a lemon waiting for the man to take my hand:blush: .

Two - In the basket in MJ I step back on my right leg, in salsa I did footwork with my left leg....I remember sometimes getting that wrong.

I have returned to salsa after a 2/3 year break and find that the connection tips that I have picked up on this Forum and from dancing friends have helped enormously. Better compression and leverage means I can just be led in salsa and so long as I can keep my feet going everything is fine, well until they lead shines :really: :eek: :sick: , then I really am in trouble.:tears:


Two things I learned at salsa which really helped my MJ were:

TAKE SMALL STEPS. Taking a large step back looks ugly and unladylike, plus with the runaway speed of salsa music there is simply not enough time to travel that far away.

DANCE IN A SLOT. I loved the power of salsa when was kept tight in its slot, and I tried to maintain the slot in MJ (when slotted things were led).


ZW

[Donna]

:yeah: I would say there are more spins, and it's certainly more tiring than MJ.

I think anything that has more of a structure to it would be more tiring! :wink:


8 years ago I was taught Cuban style salsa and then New York style, they involved masses of fast spins.

I'd love this then!


One - I was spinning way too fast at MJ and arriving there only to stand like a lemon waiting for the man to take my hand:blush: .

:rofl: Just stand there and wiggle! :grin:




TAKE SMALL STEPS. Taking a large step back looks ugly and unladylike, plus with the runaway speed of salsa music there is simply not enough time to travel that far away.

The smaller the better (steps that is!:rolleyes: ) Problem with MJ is that the steps are sooo big, you could fit a bus inbetween them! :D Also, taking smaller steps means better timing. At least you won't be slightly behind the beat which could effect what you do next.

[Gadget]

An interesting question is "why does dancing off-time feel wrong?"
Because you are not dancing to the same time as your partner. If you are both dancing "off-time", then it won't feel wrong. :shrug:

{am I missing something?}

[DavidB]

If you are both dancing "off-time", then it won't feel wrong.
But it does feel wrong. Ask any lady who follows when the man leads off time. Dance to a track with a strange beat, and you can get confused when the beat is. Watch a floor full of dancers, and the couple dancing off-time stands out a mile.

Is it just convention? Do we dance on-time just because we are used to it? Or is there something more fundamental that links the basic movements in the dance to the structure of the music?

I thought it might be a good question for a salsa thread, as you can do salsa on the one or the two. What are the benefits of each way?

[Lynn]

Or is there something more fundamental that links the basic movements in the dance to the structure of the music? I would say this - esp if you are linking it to salsa...

I thought it might be a good question for a salsa thread, as you can do salsa on the one or the two. What are the benefits of each way?I believe you dance salsa 'on 1' to salsa music that is written for 'on 1' and salsa 'on 2' for salsa music that is written for 'on 2'. (So I was told by a teacher who came over to Belfast to teach 'on 2'. He said some people who don't know the difference will still try to dance salsa 'on 1' to an 'on 2' track but it won't feel as right.)

I have also heard that you have more 'time' to do interesting things 'on 2'.

All I know is that one of the few salsa dances I have ever really enjoyed was my attempts at 'on 2' following the class when I asked the teacher up and we had a really fun dance (even though I was getting it wrong at times!).

[Nick M]

When assimilating salseros, you might spend a little time on compression and tension, and on leading and following. There is little if any compression and tension in (some forms of) salsa, and I have heard some teachers extolling the virtue of spaghetti arms, or ribbon arms.

[David Franklin]

I thought it might be a good question for a salsa thread, as you can do salsa on the one or the two. What are the benefits of each way?This link (http://www.salsa-uk.com/articles/article186.htm) isn't a definitive answer to your question, but it's an entertaining read (courtesy of one of the original SalsaMafia)!

[Gus]

When assimilating salseros, you might spend a little time on compression and tension, and on leading and following. There is little if any compression and tension in (some forms of) salsa, and I have heard some teachers extolling the virtue of spaghetti arms, or ribbon arms.
Nick, thanks for that. So far my secret weapon to keep (male) Salsa dancer coming was to get the female teacher at Chester to 'take them for a spin'. Paula is a little on the good side (she won the Sherif's inauguaral LeRoc Champs with Roger Chin) and after a dance with her the male Salsa dancers feel a lot more at home.:grin:

[Donna]

Nick, thanks for that. So far my secret weapon to keep (male) Salsa dancer coming was to get the female teacher at Chester to 'take them for a spin'. Paula is a little on the good side (she won the Sherif's inauguaral LeRoc Champs with Roger Chin) and after a dance with her the male Salsa dancers feel a lot more at home.:grin:

She is excellent a spinning!!!! and does the male part as well as the female part, very very well! :respect: :worthy:

[Gadget]

But it does feel wrong. Ask any lady who follows when the man leads off time. Dance to a track with a strange beat, and you can get confused when the beat is. Watch a floor full of dancers, and the couple dancing off-time stands out a mile.That's looking wrong.
If the lady is following off-time, but still dancing well with their partner, does it still 'feel' wrong?

If it feels wrong to dance to a different beat, or off-time, then why does musicality (specifically playing with timing & beats) feel/look so good? *
{* when it's done right :rolleyes:}


Is it just convention? Do we dance on-time just because we are used to it? Or is there something more fundamental that links the basic movements in the dance to the structure of the music?peer pressure? Why, at a concert when people clap along with a song, do they all clap on the same beat? (with the odd person clapping intentionally on the off beat)

I think that the deep 'base' marking of the rhythm corresonds to the impact of a foot on the ground. The stronger beat being the one most folk step with.

[Nick M]

[QUOTE=DavidB]Is it just convention? Do we dance on-time just because we are used to it? Or is there something more fundamental that links the basic movements in the dance to the structure of the music?
QUOTE]

A bit of both.

Salsa music, with an intricate rhythmic structure, can be danced on 1 or on 2, and it's convention that determines which. In flamenco, there can be much dancing and clapping and even singing on the offbeat (Contratiempos), but again its quite a complex rhythm and no strong beat. With something like "Dance the night away" or "Can't get you out of my head" I think it would take an iron constitution and a tin ear to dance on the offbeat.

[andydo]

Just to clear up an earlier point and to perhaps cause even more confusion...

Dancing salsa on two, as it is normally understood these days, does not mean dancing 234 678, you still dance 123 567, but the break step is now shifted so that it falls on the 2 and the 6, rather than the 1 and the 5.

Dancing on two is therefore more in tune with the percussive beat on 2 and 6, rather than the strong bass beat on the 1.

Its like one TWO three five SIX seven.

It is also possible to dance 234 678 of course but thats not 'dancing on two'.

[andydo]

That's looking wrong.

Why, at a concert when people clap along with a song, do they all clap on the same beat? (with the odd person clapping intentionally on the off beat)

I think that the deep 'base' marking of the rhythm corresonds to the impact of a foot on the ground. The stronger beat being the one most folk step with.

Just noticed this after my above post. I agree, its the strong base beat that you tend to notice and it's what we normally dance to in jive.

I would say that people normally clap on the off beats though, clapping on the beat sounds a bit lame. I'm reminded of a comment about people clapping like germans which turned out to be from this forum.

http://cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=125290&postcount=25

The percussion beat is more noticeable on the 2, so that's why it feels more natural to clap on two, clapping being a form of percussion after all.

[spindr]

It is also possible to dance 234 678 of course but thats not 'dancing on two'.
That's dancing mambo!

SpinDr.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Dancing salsa on two, as it is normally understood these days, does not mean dancing 234 678, you still dance 123 567, but the break step is now shifted so that it falls on the 2 and the 6, rather than the 1 and the 5.Yes, pause on the 1 and 5, break with the left foot on the 2, right foot on 6 (for the men) hence, 234 678, like a rumba.

There used to be a great article on www.salsafreak.com about sixty different ways to dance on different beats in salsa - all 'correct'. Pity I can't find it, it appears to have been taken down.

[Lynn]

Dancing salsa on two, as it is normally understood these days, does not mean dancing 234 678, you still dance 123 567, but the break step is now shifted so that it falls on the 2 and the 6, rather than the 1 and the 5. I don't think its as simple as that - isn't the footwork different as well? OK, I've only done one 'on 2' class but AFAIR the basic footwork for the woman at least, was different. (It also felt 'smoother' to me, not sure why.)

[andydo]

Yes, pause on the 1 and 5, break with the left foot on the 2, right foot on 6 (for the men) hence, 234 678, like a rumba.

There used to be a great article on www.salsafreak.com about sixty different ways to dance on different beats in salsa - all 'correct'. Pity I can't find it, it appears to have been taken down.

No sorry, I was saying that it's definitely not 234 678, its 123 567, pausing on the 4 and 8 just as in dancing on the one.

I think this is the salsa freak article you are talking about, look at the steps called mambo tipico / eddie torres two. That is what I would understand as dancing on two, and I think its what you'd to get if you went to an on2 class at a salsa congress in the UK.


http://www.salsafreak.com/stories-s/steps.htm

Admittedly the site does also show a 234 678 on two step pattern called on two just to confuse things.

And here's another link for interest which agrees with my definition of on 2.

http://www.salsanewyork.com/ourdancemusic.htm

Anyway, my point is that paradoxically, dancing on 2 (as generally understood here in the UK in 2006) still means dancing to the same 123 567 rhythm.

The footwork for the basic steps is still the same, its just that it has been shifted 5 beats forward in time, while the pause has stayed in the same place. Without going into details it tends to give the follower a little more time to turn and slightly more notice of a turn, which is why it feels a little smoother I guess.

However if you danced 234 678, there would effectively be no difference, if wouldn't feel any smoother, you wouldn't have any extra time to turn because you are still dancing the same rhythm, same timing, its just been shifted one beat.

Anyway, trying to get back on topic. I'm confused about what the comment about salsa dancers dancing on the off beat was, unless it was a 234 678 dancer I suppose, but I'd have thought that was quite unlikely, most salsa being on the beat whether your dancing on 1 or on 2 (my definition).

[El Salsero Gringo]

No sorry, I was saying that it's definitely not 234 678, its 123 567, pausing on the 4 and 8 just as in dancing on the one.OK - please tell me what each foot does on each beat, because I'm not following you. (by PM if you prefer, but maybe someone else is interested or can explain it to me?)

[Lynn]

The footwork for the basic steps is still the same, its just that it has been shifted 5 beats forward in time, while the pause has stayed in the same place. Without going into details it tends to give the follower a little more time to turn and slightly more notice of a turn, which is why it feels a little smoother I guess.By 'different footwork' I meant eg that the woman doesn't start with a step back right (I think she starts with a step forward, anyone help?).

And yes there did seem to be 'more' time which felt smoother to me.

[andydo]

Well there was a full description of which foot goes where when on this site, which I didn't really want to repeat, but I've included it here if anyone is interested.

Yes, you are right Lynn, the lady steps forwards on 1. So count it as different footwork if you like, although if you looked at the footprints left behind they would be the same as if you were dancing on 1. As it says below though, it is also possible to start with the first step on the 6 rather than on the 1.

http://www.salsanewyork.com/ourdancemusic.htm



The ON 2 Basic Step - In our basic step, the man's left foot goes back and the woman's right foot goes forward on the 1st beat of this so-called 8 beat measure or bar. We step with our feet on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th, 6th, and 7th beats of the measure . We do not step on the 4th and 8th beats. We actually "break" our movement, in other words we change body direction, on the 2nd and 6th beats of the measure. We call it "breaking on 2", or "dancing on 2", or "bailando en dos". This is mambo, danced forward and back, in a line or slot, not side to side or in a circle or square. You can see this step precisely demonstrated and broken down into its separate elements in the Eddie Torres Teaches Salsa videos.

Our basic step is as follows:

1st beat of the measure - The man steps back with his left foot. The woman steps forward with her right foot.

2nd beat of the measure - The man steps farther back with his right foot, then changes direction, starting to lean forward with his body = "breaks forward on 2". The woman steps farther forward with her left foot, then changes direction, starting to lean back with her body = "breaking back on 2".

3rd beat of the measure - The man steps in place with his left foot, while his body is moving forward. The woman steps in place with her right foot, while her body is moving backward.

4th beat of the measure - No steps.

5th beat of the measure - The man steps forward with his right foot, in front of his left foot. The woman steps backward with her left foot, behind her right foot.

6th beat of the measure - The man steps farther forward with his left foot, then changes direction, starting to lean backward with his body = "breaks back on 6". The woman steps farther back with her right foot, then changes direction, starting to lean forward = "breaks forward on 6".

7th beat of the measure - The man steps in place with his right foot, while his body is moving backward. The woman steps in place with her left foot, while her body is moving forward.

8th beat of the measure - No steps.

Technically, it is proper to start the dance in the following way: You walk onto the dance floor with your partner, set up the standard partner position frame, and then begin on the 6th beat of the measure, with the man stepping forward with his left foot and the woman stepping back with her right. On the 7th beat, the couple changes direction, with the man rocking back onto his right foot and the woman rocking forward onto her left foot. They then go right into the basic step pattern which is maintained through the rest of the song: the man's left foot goes back and the woman's right foot goes forward on the 1st beat of the measure, and the pattern continues as described above in detail. Although this is technically the proper way to start, most New York dancers simply begin on the 1st beat of the measure as described above, sometimes not even setting up the partner position first.