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drathzel
28th-March-2006, 09:41 PM
ok this has already been discussed probably but as a new teacher i want some feedback.

I havent been dancing that long and have recently qualified as a ceroc teacher. The thing is i would still love to compete, the problem being that i dont feel ready or good enough to compete in the open against all the wonderful dancers out there!

I know there are some fab dancers who are teachers and therefore the level would still be high, but it may give us teachers who arent so good a chance at getting through more than one round.

what do you think?:hug:

DavidY
28th-March-2006, 11:47 PM
I havent been dancing that long and have recently qualified as a ceroc teacher. The thing is i would still love to compete, the problem being that i dont feel ready or good enough to compete in the open against all the wonderful dancers out there!If you're going to Hammersmith, you could always enter the "Ceroc X" category (assuming there are places left) and win by doing the beginners' moves Really Well...

drathzel
28th-March-2006, 11:51 PM
If you're going to Hammersmith, you could always enter the "Ceroc X" category (assuming there are places left) and win by doing the beginners' moves Really Well...

Yeah but then i would need a partner! Actually that could be the flaw in any competition! Damn:hug:

Andreas
28th-March-2006, 11:57 PM
A few years back I'd have said: teachers have to compete in a section with those couples that placed in advanced. However, now I am smarter :whistle: and know that there are only few teachers that are also absolutely fabulous dancers. So naturally top competition dancers will wipe the floor with most teachers competing in their category.

Add to this that being a fabulous dancer does not mean that one is also a great teacher. On average I'd say the opposite is the case. Most good teachers have had to work hard to dance at the level they do, meaning they know a lot better to break down moves than 'naturals'. Again, in a competition a 'natural' would most likely have much better chances, uunless that person is hopelessly lazy.

Long story cut short, I believe teachers should always compete in an advanced category, for the simple fact that 'they should be there'. Teachers winning in lower categories would be detrimental to the motivation of the punters. Teachers losing in a lower category would not do them any good. Teachers only competing among themselves is detrimental to the motivation of punters. Teachers losing to punters can be detrimental to the class attitude and learning motivation of those punters.

Right, new attempt on cutting this short: Difficult to find a perfect answer. My advice, which should be discarded right away :D, don't compete as a teacher until you have definite strengths that you can use to keep your punters at bay with and still make them come back to your classes. Or, better even, don't compete at all. You simply can't win. The closest to winning is by actually winning the competition but even then there can be negative repercussions. So, don't compete ;)

drathzel
29th-March-2006, 12:04 AM
general post (see LMC i am not quoting the whole thing)

I dont think the average punter cares that much about competition. Most people come to learn to dance, not compete, if it is a natural progression then cool! My point being that if "dont compete" isnt really a fair thing to say, should teachers give up competing? No i dont think its an either or thing!

I dont think teachers should compete in Intermediate but i do think you should be rated as a dancer whether you are a teacher or not, therefore being able to compete in any category you feel is suitable.

What are the rules with double trouble and the like for teacher?

DavidY
29th-March-2006, 12:19 AM
What are the rules with double trouble and the like for teacher?The categories for Hammersmith are here. (http://www.cerocchamps.com/categories.htm) I believe you could enter anything (subject to availability) except Intermediate, Advanced and Old Gits.

drathzel
29th-March-2006, 12:23 AM
The categories for Hammersmith are here. (http://www.cerocchamps.com/categories.htm) I believe you could enter anything (subject to availability) except Intermediate, Advanced and Old Gits.

Thank you David:flower:

TheTramp
29th-March-2006, 12:35 AM
Yeah but then i would need a partner! Actually that could be the flaw in any competition! Damn:hug:

So. What am I?? Chopped meat? :tears:

drathzel
29th-March-2006, 12:40 AM
So. What am I?? Chopped meat? :tears:

No, sssh, i was keeping you as my secret weapon!:respect:

Andy McGregor
29th-March-2006, 01:03 AM
So. What am I?? Chopped meat? :tears:Just meat, not chopped.

MartinHarper
29th-March-2006, 01:32 AM
i dont feel ready or good enough to compete in the open against all the wonderful dancers out there!

This is the same feeling that every beginner who ever stepped onto a dancefloor has felt. They somehow get the courage to dance on the same dancefloor as random intermediates. You should get the courage to compete in the same category as these wonderful dancers, if that's what the competition requires. Sure, you'll probably lose. It's in the nature of competitions that almost everyone loses. If you enjoy competitions for their own sake, and you enjoy the process leading up to competitions, then that won't matter.

If confidence is a problem, i suggest capitalising the word "i" in your forum posts, thus instantly making yourself bigger and more important. Or take up pole dancing, I guess.

ChrisA
29th-March-2006, 12:09 PM
My view is that there should be no "no teachers" rule in any of the categories, even the Intermediates.

As others have said, there's no real link between those that are great teachers and those that are great competition dancers.

I don't think new teachers should be barred from competing, even at intermediate level, if that's how good their dancing is.

Any recent teachers whose dancing is at intermediate level should be allowed to compete there, and if they do well, they should move up to Advanced.

And any teachers that are advanced dancers should know very well what level they're at, and have enough dignity not to enter at a level below it.

I mean, can you imagine how daft Nigel and Nina would look if they entered the Intermediates? They would never do that, since they would rightly be ridiculed if they did.

In borderline cases, teachers would gain more respect if they erred on the side of entering at a higher level, rather than a lower one, and more experienced teachers and the competition organisers could help by providing advice along those lines. This should be done in any case, since it would help prevent situations such as when, a couple of years ago, a showcase winner at a major competition was allowed to compete (and then went on to win) at Intermediate level at the very next comp.

But having actual rules forcing all teachers into the highest cateogry is just going to produce anomalies, and exclude recently qualified teachers from gaining valuable experience.

MartinHarper
29th-March-2006, 01:01 PM
Exclude recently qualified teachers from gaining valuable experience.

I don't see how it does that. They can still enter the competition.

TheTramp
29th-March-2006, 01:04 PM
I don't see how it does that. They can still enter the competition.

Well, you don't get much experience if you get knocked out in the first round (which you will do if you compete at a dancing level greater than where you are at.... :rolleyes:

ChrisA
29th-March-2006, 01:23 PM
Well, you don't get much experience if you get knocked out in the first round (which you will do if you compete at a dancing level greater than where you are at.... :rolleyes:
..... :yeah:

Very true, but I had a more subjective reason in mind. As MH says, it would be perfectly possible to enter an Open level competition even if you were an Intermediate dancer, but you would just feel completely out of place if you did.

It's bad enough to go through all the practice, the nerves before and on the day, and the round itself, but even if you know you have no chance of being placed, or even of getting to the final, it can all be coped with.

But just feeling completely out of place would be horrible - at the very least you wouldn't want to be completely embarrassed looking at the DVD afterwards :blush:

People should be able to enter at a level appropriate to their dancing.

Andreas
29th-March-2006, 01:25 PM
Well, you don't get much experience if you get knocked out in the first round (which you will do if you compete at a dancing level greater than where you are at.... :rolleyes:
But that is exactly the point. As a teacher you should be above the lavel of class you teach. That means as a beginner you simply should not be teaching beginners because your experience is too insufficient to notice mistakes etc.. And in having said that, if you are really into competitions you will start BEFORE you become a teacher. That then allows you to run through the lower levels of a competition and gather experience.

Just to point that out again, I do not say that teachers should compete at the highest level (Master and equiv.).

:cheers:

Gus
29th-March-2006, 01:35 PM
As a teacher you should be above the level of class you teach. That means as a beginner you simply should not be teaching beginners because your experience is too insufficient to notice mistakes etc.Yup ... totally agree with you ... IN THEORY. The fact is that the vast majority of MJ teachers are reasonably good dancers who have a strong personality who can teach a very structured model. Relatively few MJ instructors have any real 'teaching' expertise nor deep knowledge of dance theory/mechanics .... because we don't have to. The 'Ceroc' model works very well in achieving its objectives. If you want all MJ instructors to be at the same standard as 'proper' dance teachers, then send them all off on a 3 year dance degree ..... and see 95% of the clubs in the UK close.

The bottom line is that MJ instructors are good at teaching MJ. The majority of them would be outclassed by the likes of Simon & Nicole, Will & Kate, Phil & Yuko ... so why do organisers still insist on putting them in the same category. To my knowledge (and please correct me if I'm wrong), the only mainstream MJ instructors at the top level of competition are JiveBruumie and Simon R. 'Nuff said?

ChrisA
29th-March-2006, 01:38 PM
That means as a beginner you simply should not be teaching beginners
Well, for a start there aren't any beginners competitions.

And to teach social dancing at beginners level, particularly the way Ceroc do it, there is absolutely no need to be of Advanced competition standard.

So why shouldn't newish teachers enter the Intermediates if that's where their level is?

Certainly they should be advised not to if their dancing is good enough to enter at a higher level, since as I said, they'll gain a lot more respect and credibility that way. And as I think you suggested, they might choose not to if they didn't want to lose badly and thereby lose respect (although I don't see how they would, unless they were truly dreadful - it's pretty unlikely that a teacher, even a new one, would be so bad as to look out of place in the intermediates).

But I don't think the rules should exclude them.

Jive Brummie
29th-March-2006, 04:36 PM
Judging at the last Scottish Ceroc Champs having been suggested to that my inclusion in the competition may be construde as innappropriate due to potential favouritism type stuff (which I duly respected), I always thought it'd be nice to have a competition category for teachers only.

Can you imagine the amount of blood, sweat and tears incurred by those competing teachers to outdo their fellow competitors! Hahahaha. It'd be great to watch...and for those competing, it could be a potential maker or breaker...

What would a Ceroc teacher do if their direct competitor who is independant for example, came higher than them in the placings? I reckon it would be a great category for joe punter to watch as everyone would be going for it bigstyle....

As far as Drathzel's question is concerned, I'm afraid I'm in favour of teachers dancing at the higest level's only. The teacher status thing often suggests that you have a greater depth of understanding and a greater dance ability than your normal club goer, and as such you should in theory be better at competition dancing because you have all this hidden talent and knowledge. Now I know in reality this is utter twaddle and that teachers are human too, with their own levels of talent, ability, understanding and dare I say...opinions:whistle: , but overall you have to understand what an individuals perception of you is as their teacher.

For someone like yourself Danielle, the people you teach over in NI will percieve you as a dance guru due to your ability and understanding which they don't have...yet, and so why would you want to compete at a level which doesn't fit that stereotype?

Don't forget as a teacher for a big organisation you are now classed as public property and are always on duty (I was once told this....these are not my words), and as such you must think about taking one for the corps..rather than living up to your own ability...

Just a suggestion though...tell me to poke of if you so desire:flower: (That's just an offer to Danielle by the way, and doesn't mean you can all tell me to poke off...could be quite funny though).

JB. x x

drathzel
29th-March-2006, 05:06 PM
For someone like yourself Danielle, the people you teach over in NI will percieve you as a dance guru due to your ability and understanding which they don't have...yet, and so why would you want to compete at a level which doesn't fit that stereotype?

Ah but what would look better, failure at open or the chance of being placed in advanced, not that i feel i could be. If this was the case, i think my dancers especially would respect someone who won an advanced competition than someone who didnt get through any rounds in the open! (this is MHO)

Lynn
29th-March-2006, 06:20 PM
Ah but what would look better, failure at open or the chance of being placed in advanced, not that i feel i could be. If this was the case, i think my dancers especially would respect someone who won an advanced competition than someone who didnt get through any rounds in the open! (this is MHO)Most of your local dancers wouldn't be at the competition for a start. I don't really think competitions are on their radar to be honest, not yet anyway. I'm the only one to my knowledge who has even been to one. They would be impressed enough if you entered, never mind where you got to and I don't think they would currently know the difference between advanced and open. They are more interested in how you behave on a regular night helping them to learn to dance than performance in competitions in England (or Scotland).:hug:

David Franklin
29th-March-2006, 06:55 PM
Judging at the last Scottish Ceroc Champs having been suggested to that my inclusion in the competition may be construde as innappropriate due to potential favouritism type stuff (which I duly respected), I always thought it'd be nice to have a competition category for teachers only.No offense, but I completely disagree, at least as long as there is an open category they can enter. I can't see any reason (other than politics) to prevent non-teachers from competing against teachers.


What would a Ceroc teacher do if their direct competitor who is independant for example, came higher than them in the placings? I reckon it would be a great category for joe punter to watch as everyone would be going for it bigstyle....So not entirely unlike the current open category? Unless you think the open competitors are just going through the motions or something?


For someone like yourself Danielle, the people you teach over in NI will percieve you as a dance guru due to your ability and understanding which they don't have...yet, and so why would you want to compete at a level which doesn't fit that stereotype?Personally, I think there's a lot of value in students learning their teacher isn't an infallible guru. But I agree it's probably not the best marketing ploy.

Andy McGregor
29th-March-2006, 10:40 PM
I've changed my opinion of Teachers and competitions having given it a huge amount of thought I've realised that it's not really a separate category. I think that dance professionals, people who make their living from dance teaching or dancing, are a very different animal from teachers who teach modern jive the odd night a week and have a real day job.

I believe that the occasional teacher should not be put in a different category from the keen amateur. There might even be an argument that the keen amateur has more time to practice and gets more training than the occasional teacher. I think that people could make their own mind up about their level - and the audience should boo those pot hunters who enter beneath themselves.

Dance professionals should have their own category - but in MJ there are so few of them the entry would be so low it wouldn't be worth running the competition. So you'd end up with everyone being able to enter everything. And this is completely right for what is basically a social dance.

ChrisA
29th-March-2006, 10:45 PM
...having given it a huge amount of thought I've realised that it's not really a separate category.

....

I believe that the occasional teacher should not be put in a different category from the keen amateur.

...So you'd end up with everyone being able to enter everything. And this is completely right for what is basically a social dance.
Er, just to clarify, does this huge amount of thought you've put in mean that you agree with me, Andy?????

It seems so unlikely that I thought I'd check... :innocent:

Andy McGregor
29th-March-2006, 10:50 PM
Er, just to clarify, does this huge amount of thought you've put in mean that you agree with me, Andy?????

It seems so unlikely that I thought I'd check... :innocent:I think that ChrisA will find that he's agreeing with me. The opposite is unthinkable :devil:

ChrisA
29th-March-2006, 11:00 PM
I think that ChrisA will find that he's agreeing with me. The opposite is unthinkable :devil:
That's good enough for me.

Particularly since it didn't require a huge amount of thought on my part... :devil:

Andy McGregor
29th-March-2006, 11:14 PM
Particularly since it didn't require a huge amount of thought on my part... :devil:Of course it's easier to agree with me - don't even think about the alternatives Mr A - oh, you're not :confused:

drathzel
29th-March-2006, 11:37 PM
So since i started the thread, does that not mean you two are agreeing with me????:D

Andy McGregor
30th-March-2006, 12:02 AM
So since i started the thread, does that not mean you two are agreeing with me????:DYou might be agreeing with ChrisA. And ChrisA is agreeing with me. Although I'm not sure what you think - but any right thinking person would, of course, agree with me. The other option is to be completely wrong, and nobody would want to do that :devil:

drathzel
30th-March-2006, 12:09 AM
You might be agreeing with ChrisA. And ChrisA is agreeing with me. Although I'm not sure what you think - but any right thinking person would, of course, agree with me. The other option is to be completely wrong, and nobody would want to do that :devil:

ah but if you are agreeing with Chris A and he is certainly agreeing with me, then that means you are agreeing with the first post and in turn are agreeing with me! Glad we settled this matter:D

Andy McGregor
30th-March-2006, 01:14 AM
ah but if you are agreeing with Chris A and he is certainly agreeing with me, then that means you are agreeing with the first post and in turn are agreeing with me! Glad we settled this matter:DThat would be true if I were agreeing with ChrisA. But I'm not, he's agreeing with me - obviously.

drathzel
30th-March-2006, 11:42 AM
That would be true if I were agreeing with ChrisA. But I'm not, he's agreeing with me - obviously.

ah ok!:D

Tessalicious
30th-March-2006, 12:04 PM
Now that everyone agrees, can I throw a spanner in the works and disagree completely?

My view on the matter is this - that the idea of a competition is for those people who come along and learn to dance to measure their performance against others in the same position. How disgruntled would every single couple entered in the Intermediate level be if the winners or any placed couple were teachers, however newly-qualified? The reason for that disgruntlement is that it wouldn't feel like a fair competition - after all, those teachers have been taught not only how to dance at an intermediate level, but also how to teach at it, so they therefore must be better.

On the other hand, I don't agree that teachers shouldn't be allowed to compete at the Advanced level. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only real difference between Advanced an Open is the allowability of lifts etc, which a teacher does not have any default advantage at because they are not taught at the standard teacher training. Therefore, although a teacher ought to be at a level of dancing to enter the Advanced, they should not be required to train to a level to be competing in the Open, just because they are teachers.

David Franklin
30th-March-2006, 12:30 PM
Now that everyone agrees, can I throw a spanner in the works and disagree completely?No. :wink:


My view on the matter is this - that the idea of a competition is for those people who come along and learn to dance to measure their performance against others in the same position. But even teachers have to learn to dance.


those teachers have been taught not only how to dance at an intermediate level, but also how to teach at it, so they therefore must be better.But outside of Ceroc, I would guess most MJ teachers have between little and no specific training in how to teach dance.

I would also say that I don't see any particular justification for saying "taught to teach X => better at X", at least where X involves physical performance.

There is certainly an argument that Ceroc teachers get better dance teaching than is available to the general punter, however. But with all the workshops these days, I think that difference is far less marked than it was in the past.

As far as your main argument about people feeling "those teachers shouldn't have entered the intermediate category", I think that's more a problem with the category than anything else. With very few exceptions , when you look at the people who place in intermediate, it's hard to argue they don't "belong" in advanced. It's up to people to self-police their level, and I think it's the same for teachers - in fact, I'd argue that because their status is generally well-known, they are less likely to "sandbag" than a random couple.


The most obvious exception is where a couple have only been dancing for a relatively short period. I think people who've only been dancing a year or so have a perfect right to enter intermediate, even if they'd have a realistic shot in the open.


On the other hand, I don't agree that teachers shouldn't be allowed to compete at the Advanced level. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only real difference between Advanced an Open is the allowability of lifts etc, which a teacher does not have any default advantage at because they are not taught at the standard teacher training. Actually, my understanding is most Ceroc teachers are taught various "red" moves that are deemed too difficult/risky to teach in classes, and these do include some basic lifts and some of the more adventurous drops.

Andy McGregor
30th-March-2006, 12:34 PM
Now that everyone agrees, can I throw a spanner in the works and disagree completely?

My view on the matter is this - that the idea of a competition is for those people who come along and learn to dance to measure their performance against others in the same position. How disgruntled would every single couple entered in the Intermediate level be if the winners or any placed couple were teachers, however newly-qualified? The reason for that disgruntlement is that it wouldn't feel like a fair competition - after all, those teachers have been taught not only how to dance at an intermediate level, but also how to teach at it, so they therefore must be better.

On the other hand, I don't agree that teachers shouldn't be allowed to compete at the Advanced level. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only real difference between Advanced an Open is the allowability of lifts etc, which a teacher does not have any default advantage at because they are not taught at the standard teacher training. Therefore, although a teacher ought to be at a level of dancing to enter the Advanced, they should not be required to train to a level to be competing in the Open, just because they are teachers.I think we agree, sort of. I think that the intermediate competition is mis-named. It should be the novice or newcomers competition. Some people teach after six months of dancing and should be in this category. However, any teacher who is a fab dancer would get a huge amount of stick for entering beneath themselves so I think they'd stay out of the bottom level of competition. As I said, let people decide on their own level. I think it's more likely that people will have a higher opinion of their dancing than a lesser one.

And, as an aside, I've always thought that the Intermediate comeptition is difficult to define. After all, you're really competing to prove that you're in the wrong category :confused:

Gus
30th-March-2006, 01:58 PM
Ah but what would look better, failure at open or the chance of being placed in advancedAnd this is where it all goes wrong and I start to be ashamed of my fellow instructors.:mad: There are those who claim competition successes for the Minors as if they were competing in the Majors, those who win a competition with no or little competition and then claim this as a major victory (don't laugh ... all the above are true and currently advertised on the web).

If you want to make yourself look good ... then WIN AGAINST THE BIG BOYS AT A MAJOR ... don't mislead the Public (and yourself) by claiming to have 'won' something. If you want to compete at Advanced rather than Open, great .... but don’t then shout about it.

[Rant Mode Off]

drathzel
30th-March-2006, 02:05 PM
If you want to make yourself look good ... then WIN AGAINST THE BIG BOYS AT A MAJOR ... don't mislead the Public (and yourself) by claiming to have 'won' something. If you want to compete at Advanced rather than Open, great .... but don’t then shout about it.

[Rant Mode Off]

You can rant if you want but my comment was in response to Jive Brummie about what would look better, personally i dont care how i look, i have always competed for fun! For me its more important to be a good teacher than to be "one of the big boys"

Gus
30th-March-2006, 02:24 PM
You can rant if you want but my comment was in response to Jive Brummie about what would look better, personally i dont care how i look, i have always competed for fun! For me its more important to be a good teacher than to be "one of the big boys"Sorry lass, wasn't a rant at YOU, just a rant at the no-marks who keep on pushing out marketing blurb claiming 'Mastery of Modern Jive' through winning a totaly unimportant competition.

Slightly off thread but if you entered a team event, and you were the only entrant, would you them claim, "A major competition winner and team champions choreographer"?:rolleyes:

MartinHarper
30th-March-2006, 03:21 PM
Slightly off thread but if you entered a team event, and you were the only entrant, would you them claim, "A major competition winner and team champions choreographer"?:rolleyes:

Definately. Since taking third position in a "bad dancing" round in a pub quiz I did on holiday, I feel entitled to call myself an "international dance competitor".

Gus
30th-March-2006, 03:40 PM
Definately. Since taking third position in a "bad dancing" round in a pub quiz I did on holiday, I feel entitled to call myself an "international dance competitor".But now that you have been 'placed' in a dance related event don't you now have to enter the Advanced section at the Ceroc Champs .... on ethics alone? :whistle:

Gadget
31st-March-2006, 08:12 AM
...a totaly unimportant competition.
I'm sure that it was important to those competing and those organising.

Gus
31st-March-2006, 04:40 PM
I'm sure that it was important to those competing and those organising.OK ... case in point. A Team Cabaret competition with 1 team. I accept that it was great to see the team perform, regardless of standard .... but to then claim to be 'Major Championship Winners' is an insult to all the true champions. Don't you agree?

ChrisA
31st-March-2006, 05:07 PM
OK ... case in point. A Team Cabaret competition with 1 team. I accept that it was great to see the team perform, regardless of standard .... but to then claim to be 'Major Championship Winners' is an insult to all the true champions. Don't you agree?

I recall the example - we had a little to-do about it here, on exactly this subject in fact, IIRC.

ISTR that it was asserted in no uncertain terms at the time that since the team in question was so fab (which, to be fair, I thought it was - and I haven't seen a better one since), other teams withdrew their entries since they didn't feel they had a chance.

And consequently deserved on that basis alone to merit the "winner" acolade.

I think they deserved some stick for it at the time, but I think it's a bit naff dragging it all up again...

Gus
31st-March-2006, 05:23 PM
I recall the example - we had a little to-do about it here, on exactly this subject in fact, IIRC.

I think they deserved some stick for it at the time, but I think it's a bit naff dragging it all up again...Ahem, its a bit more naff to make thoise accusations about the wrong event. Are you are referring to Ceroc Metro entry at one of the Minors, i.e. WSM? I was talking about 2002 UK CHamps. If you've watched the video and still think that was the best routine you've ever seen then I'm seriously conerned about your dance expertise.:rolleyes:

ChrisA
31st-March-2006, 05:28 PM
Ahem, its a bit more naff to make thoise accusations about the wrong event. Are you are referring to Ceroc Metro entry at one of the Minors, i.e. WSM? I was talking about 2002 UK CHamps. If you've watched the video and still think that was the best routine you've ever seen then I'm seriously conerned about your dance expertise.:rolleyes:
Well, if you don't want to be misunderstood, you should be clearer...

I did think you meant the Ceroc Metro entry. 2002 was before my time.

So now you tell me you're dragging up a moan from almost four years ago?

Even naffer. :rolleyes:

David Franklin
31st-March-2006, 06:11 PM
Well, if you don't want to be misunderstood, you should be clearer...

I did think you meant the Ceroc Metro entry.Me too. Sorry, Gus, but given it's a lot more recent and was the case that was discussed here not so long ago it was the obvious referent.

I don't recall the 2002 winners making that much of a big deal about it. Plus if memory serves and we're talking about Sue Freeman's team, at that point I think she was widely regarded as the best team choreographer around, so I hardly think the claim was a huge injustice.

If we're looking that far back, I did think the competitor who came 3rd in DWAS and described himself as a UK Open Jive winner was more than a little naughty.

Gus
31st-March-2006, 06:22 PM
I don't recall the 2002 winners making that much of a big deal about it. Plus if memory serves and we're talking about Sue Freeman's team, at that point I think she was widely regarded as the best team choreographer around, so I hardly think the claim was a huge injustice..COME ON Guys. At least look at the C2D website. The winning, and only team, was a North West team, most of the people I know myself. This 'victory' HAS been used quite strongly locally.

Please give me some credit for getting my facts right!! This seems to be the second time in two days when people have launched in assumptions without trying to validate the facts first .... would save no small amount of hassle!

Andy McGregor
31st-March-2006, 06:34 PM
Please give me some credit for getting my facts right!! This seems to be the second time in two days when people have launched in assumptions without trying to validate the facts first .... would save no small amount of hassle!Sorry Gus, but I'm blaming you if you're so vague that people guess what you're talking about. So don't get uppity when they guess wrongly. My advice is to state clearly who you're talking about - you did it in the end, so you've obviously got no problem saying who it was. IMHO you should have done so in the first place.

And, on the subject of Sue Freeman's team at the Ceroc Champs, I thought that their performance was the best team cabaret I've ever seen :worthy:

David Franklin
31st-March-2006, 06:35 PM
COME ON Guys. At least look at the C2D website. The winning, and only team, was a North West team, most of the people I know myself. This 'victory' HAS been used quite strongly locally.Sorry, you're right. It wasn't Sue Freeman's team. It does go to show how these oblique references can bite you though - I'd say Chris and I are both better informed than most, and we still thought you meant someone else. I of course, am equally guilty of hinting in my post above. :blush:

Gus
31st-March-2006, 09:45 PM
Sorry Gus, but I'm blaming you if you're so vague that people guess what you're talking about. Blame who you like pal. Doesn't change the fact that the comment was taken out of context. The reason the examples were mentioned in the first place were merely as examples of questionable marketing. To focus on background examples and to ignore the actual point is made is unfortunately indicative of the Forum over the last year+ ... hence my original decision to leave it behind :whistle:


So don't get uppity when they guess wrongly.
So THEY get it wrong and I'm too blame ..... :confused: :confused: :confused: Cross dressing may be your forte but logic obviously isn't. Get Your Facts Right BEFORE you launch a tirade. Tis both good manners and common sense:flower:

ANYWAY .... back to thread .... has a cohesive and convincing argument been made either way yet?

ChrisA
31st-March-2006, 10:30 PM
...usual ranting...
Ok Gus, you win.

You were vague, but it was completely my fault for jumping to the wrong conclusion. And Dave's fault for making the same mistake. We should have known exactly what you meant, even though you only made an oblique reference to what you were talking about.

And I also apologise for wanting to try and understand the point you're making in the context of an actual example, even if the example is too non-specific for anyone to know what example you're referring to.

I realise in future I should just agree with you. After all, you shout so loud on these topics that you must be right.

Anyway, I've offered my view in response to Danielle's original question. I hope it's of interest. You can have this thread to yourself now.

David Franklin
31st-March-2006, 11:02 PM
ANYWAY .... back to thread .... has a cohesive and convincing argument been made either way yet?You can read the thread yourself, but I think it's a fair summary to say the consensus is that there's no real justification for having a separate section. Opinion is a little more mixed on whether teachers should be restricted to advanced, open etc.

Gus
31st-March-2006, 11:13 PM
You can read the thread yourself, but I think it's a fair summary to say the consensus is that there's no real justification for having a separate section. Opinion is a little more mixed on whether teachers should be restricted to advanced, open etc.Isn't the one thing that is always missing from this debate (which seems to occur on a regular basis) is the organisers, the ones who actualy can change things? When was the last time anyone from C2D, Ceroc, WSM, Britrock etc made a statement on the Forum, other than to publicise their event? Would be real nice to hear their opinion.
Actualy, didn't C2D once make a comment on the subject ... can't seem to find it.

David Franklin
31st-March-2006, 11:52 PM
Isn't the one thing that is always missing from this debate (which seems to occur on a regular basis) is the organisers, the ones who actualy can change things? When was the last time anyone from C2D, Ceroc, WSM, Britrock etc made a statement on the Forum, other than to publicise their event? Would be real nice to hear their opinion.
Actualy, didn't C2D once make a comment on the subject ... can't seem to find it.C2D are actually quite good about replying on the forum to queries and suggestions. They certainly answered some prior to this years' comp. Unfortunately despite many posts on this forum advocating adding a new "Open" section, they seem unwilling to change things, which is a shame. Conversely, the Ceroc Champs organisers rarely seem to reply here, but it is clear from the changes they've made to the rules that they do read and respond to suggestions and comments here. It would be nice to have the best of both worlds, though!

I think anything C2D said about teachers competing was a few years back now. I do remember that originally the big contrast with the Ceroc champs was that teachers could enter C2D (only the advanced section, I think). But as I've said earlier, while there used to be a real gap between teachers and the rest that could justify forcing them into a particular division, such differences are much much smaller now.

Gadget
31st-March-2006, 11:52 PM
OK ... case in point. A Team Cabaret competition with 1 team. I accept that it was great to see the team perform, regardless of standard .... but to then claim to be 'Major Championship Winners' is an insult to all the true champions. Don't you agree?
Yes, and no {:rolleyes:}
Technically it is accurate. And every teacher/organiser/organisation wants to promote themselves as not only having experiance, but being the best with that experiance.

This is my main objection with teachers in 'general' competitions - not the fact that they might win because they have a lot of resources and knowledge to pool - but that they have to teach. And to teach well, you have to have the respect of your pupils. And I think that entering into a competition so that you are rubbing shoulders with the people you teach can only loose you respect. If you are a brilliant dancer who should be placed, then you shouldn't be in this section anyway; loss of respect.

Andy McGregor
1st-April-2006, 12:28 AM
So THEY get it wrong and I'm to blame ..... :confused: :confused: :confused: Correct, you left people in a position where they had to guess what you were talking about if they were to add anything to the debate - and then got annoyed when they guessed wrongly. You clues were insufficient for two well informed individuals and those clues might even have been misleading as those, well informed, individuals seemed to think they knew who you were talking about.