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TheTramp
25th-March-2006, 02:47 PM
So. Do people think that the ceroc essentials are a good thing?

From my point of view, I don't like them. I have never done any 'solo' dancing, so feel uncomfortable doing that - especially on the stage. So, when I cover teach, I don't do them. I've never had anyone tell me that they miss them, I've had several people tell me that they are happy not doing them when I teach.

From a learning point of view, I don't see any point in them. Anything I want to cover when doing essentials - like weight transference etc. - I can cover when actually teaching the class.

From a 'warm-up' point of view, I also don't see any point. A couple of minutes 'warm-up', followed by then standing around for 5 mins while you teach the basics, renders them rather a waste of time as a warm-up.

It seems to me now, that a lot of people turn up late, in order to miss doing the essentials. I know that intermediates never turn up on time, but these days, it seems that we start with very few people at the beginning of the class, and end up with many more by the end of the beginners class. More so than we used to have.

Anyhow, what do you all think? :D

Lynn
25th-March-2006, 03:07 PM
... these days, it seems that we start with very few people at the beginning of the class, and end up with many more by the end of the beginners class. Ah, you have yet to experience classes in Belfast...nothing to do with the essentials, people just don't turn up on time.

As for the essentials. I liked them at first as it got people onto the floor, but I think its more of an ice breaker than anything else. So if its your first week, its probably a good thing. But for those who have been coming several weeks, I could see people wanting to give it a miss.

TheTramp
25th-March-2006, 03:25 PM
As for the essentials. I liked them at first as it got people onto the floor, but I think its more of an ice breaker than anything else. So if its your first week, its probably a good thing. But for those who have been coming several weeks, I could see people wanting to give it a miss.

I can see that it could be a bit of an ice-breaker. But I'd still question if it's necessary even as that. Getting people onto the floor is what happens before you do essentials. So that happens whether you're about to do essentials or not....

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
25th-March-2006, 03:26 PM
I like them! So they're not terribly interesting, however I think it's essential to do a warm-up. Particualarly as when I saw a physiotherapist she told me to always warm up before dancing, however if I arrive late I don't :blush:

TheTramp
25th-March-2006, 03:28 PM
I like them! So they're not terribly interesting, however I think it's essential to do a warm-up. Particualarly as when I saw a physiotherapist she told me to always warm up before dancing, however if I arrive late I don't :blush:
If you could the ceroc essentials to be a warm-up, then, quite frankly, you're fooling yourself. Ice-breaker, possibly. Warm-up, not even remotely. What do you do immediately after getting (very slightly) warm in the essentials? Pretty much nothing.

If your physio has told you to warm-up, then you need to warm-up. You don't need to do essentials.

Andreas
25th-March-2006, 04:06 PM
From a learning point of view, I don't see any point in them. Anything I want to cover when doing essentials - like weight transference etc. - I can cover when actually teaching the class.
I agree. I too always made the important things part of the class. Makes it less abstract and less boring to the punters :D


From a 'warm-up' point of view, I also don't see any point. A couple of minutes 'warm-up', followed by then standing around for 5 mins while you teach the basics, renders them rather a waste of time as a warm-up.
This, in my opinion depends a bit what you make of the warm-up. The teachers in Hamiltopn, NZ, always made spinning part of the warm-up, which 'forces' everybody to put a least those couple of seconds into spin practice as opposed to no time at all. Also, stretching at the end of warm-up definitely does help preventing injuries, even if you then stand around for a few minutes just listening and watching.
I personally made warm-up 'part of the routine', meaning in pretty much every routine I had at least one move that I could use in warm-up for which I always used Lambada anyways. So it never was the classical Ceroc warm-up.


It seems to me now, that a lot of people turn up late, in order to miss doing the essentials. I know that intermediates never turn up on time, but these days, it seems that we start with very few people at the beginning of the class, and end up with many more by the end of the beginners class. More so than we used to have.
Haven't been teaching in a while (couple years) so don't know the latest developments but even back then quite a few punters used to turn up late to classes. However, I don't remember that number to be particularly high at my classes. That could have to do because they knew that the warm-up was valuable practice time, or simply because I kept pointing out during the class that we have done a particular move during warm-up already.

I certainly would not want to scrap a warm-up, even though it cuts class time a bit short. But warming up and stretching are important to avoid injuries, in particular shoulder injuries. :flower:

bigdjiver
25th-March-2006, 05:11 PM
I thought that the beginners class was the warm-up. I always try to skip the "essentials".

Genie
25th-March-2006, 06:50 PM
If I'm there to take part in the beginners class, I'll do the essentials, but I don't enjoy them. They may be necessary to get very new dancers into the idea of steps in time to the music, and so on, but for the rest of us, they... grate on our nerves. I know a lot of intermediate dancers who hold back until the essentials bit is over, then we all dash onto the floor for the beginners class.


I thought that the beginners class was the warm-up. I always try to skip the "essentials".

Agreed. I join the begginers class more as a warm up than anything else (although it does help to meet all the new faces). If I arrive just in time for the intermediate class, I have difficulty relaxing into it.

philsmove
25th-March-2006, 07:05 PM
Could someoner explain to us luddites :blush: down ‘ere in LeRoc land what essentials are

Andy McGregor
25th-March-2006, 07:28 PM
Could someoner explain to us luddites :blush: down ‘ere in LeRoc land what essentials areThey're like a few minutes of aerobics before you actually start the beginners lesson. They're Ceroc and they're "essential". Anyone who misses them will not be able to do Ceroc because they're "essential". How we managed all those years without them is a mystery.

ducasi
25th-March-2006, 07:56 PM
I'm rarely there in time for the Ceroc Essentials™ these days, but I'd never deliberately miss it.

I think it's a valuable exercise in learning the steps, plus it does get you moving...

Not good at doing all the arm waving stuff though... Feel and probably look stupid... Which is one reason I'd not want to be a demo...

MartinHarper
25th-March-2006, 08:12 PM
So they're not terribly interesting

Depends on the teacher. At Ceroc Wythall and Ceroc Cheltenham they've sometimes started off with your basic Essentials and then thrown in some bits and pieces that wouldn't be out of place at a "style" workshop at a weekender. I've also seen the partnered part of Essentials extended with bits and pieces that wouldn't be out of place at a "lead and follow" workshop. There's a lot of potential available for teachers who don't just do the bare minimum.

bigdjiver
25th-March-2006, 09:05 PM
Could someoner explain to us luddites :blush: down ‘ere in LeRoc land what essentials areHere in CC land they show the basics of stepping in and back correctly in time to the music, how to give a nice hip movement, the basics of offer and acceptance of the hand(s).

Yliander
26th-March-2006, 12:32 AM
They're like a few minutes of aerobics before you actually start the beginners lesson. errrrghhh aerobics?!?! I thought I was at a ceroc class.

Andy McGregor
26th-March-2006, 10:50 AM
errrrghhh aerobics?!?! I thought I was at a ceroc class.It's OK, you're allowed to take off your legwarmers for the freestyle:innocent:

ChrisU
26th-March-2006, 02:06 PM
Hi. I DJ at Shelf where we do essentials.

Its easy and puts begineers at ease and gets some people into BEAT.

Its a good warm up which is a good idea for any kind of exercise. I certainly remember my first lesson. I used muscles I didn't know I had.

It gives the DJ time to have some extra gulps of his preffered tipple. (soft drinks for me you understand:rolleyes: ).

Regards and greeting from a spring like Leeds

DJ Chris Uren
:wink:

Piglet
26th-March-2006, 02:46 PM
I hated the Essentials when they first began to take place, but now I don't mind them at all - I liked seeing how the different teachers made it their own and taught them slightly differently (mind you, I have to travel around a bit to benefit from that aspect).

I've been dancing just coming up to 2 years and although I've always liked to be there before the beginner's class has started - I've recently realised I can chill out a bit more at home rather than rush to the class because I don't really get any new tips in the Beginner's class any more either as a follow or a lead, so I may be a bit later now, but this has nothing at all to do with the Essentials taking place or not - simply a chilled Piglet taking her time :D

Andy McGregor
26th-March-2006, 03:15 PM
Its a good warm up which is a good idea for any kind of exercise. Of course you could regard the beginners lesson as a warm up. It's hardly strenuous and gets the arms and legs moving with no particularly awkward moves that require well warmed muscles. Of course, the whole thing about Ceroc Essentials is that they're essential - so they must have some purpose, but I think a warm up to a warm up isn't it.

Heather
26th-March-2006, 03:45 PM
They're like a few minutes of aerobics before you actually start the beginners lesson. They're Ceroc and they're "essential". Anyone who misses them will not be able to do Ceroc because they're "essential". How we managed all those years without them is a mystery.


:yeah: :yeah:

Mr McGregor you are SO funny ( when you're not banging on about smoking, that is !!!!:wink: :rofl: )
:hug:
Heather

Andy McGregor
26th-March-2006, 03:52 PM
:yeah: :yeah:

Mr McGregor you are SO funny ( when you're not banging on about smoking, that is !!!!:wink: :rofl: )
:hug:
HeatherHaven't mentioned smoking recently. Don't need to, we've won the battle to live a longer, healthier life.

What should our next battle be, I wonder? Perhaps we should campaign against using 4X4s for the school run, or campaign for longer sentences for pervs. Speaking personally, I can't think of anything that impacted on my daily life like smoking did. It created no-go areas and required constant vigilance just to avoid an clear and present health risk. Nothing else is quite the same in terms of invasiveness. This victory (which I'm not claiming as mine) means that, as far as I'm concerned, we can all go back to being lightweight and frivilous in our discussions. I like the talk of shoes and shopping :flower:

clevedonboy
26th-March-2006, 05:38 PM
But it's still 16 months til the ban comes into force so we still have to fight scirmishes to erradicate pockets of resistance.

As for Essentials - did it once at my on Ceroc class & it was harmless enough.

Graeme puts us through something a bit tought at Lindy classes by way of a warm up. At first it's really confusing - lots of seemingly complex steps - Rubber Legs, Tick Tock, Boogie Forward, Boogie Backward (which I still struggle with), gradually they make sense so when they're thrown into the routines they don't come as a complete surprise. Interestingly a large number of people seem to time their arrival for the end of the warm up.

Tiggerbabe
26th-March-2006, 05:47 PM
But it's still 16 months til the ban comes into force so we still have to fight scirmishes to erradicate pockets of resistance.

Not up here :clap:

drathzel
26th-March-2006, 08:24 PM
As for the essentials. I liked them at first as it got people onto the floor, but I think its more of an ice breaker than anything else. So if its your first week, its probably a good thing. But for those who have been coming several weeks, I could see people wanting to give it a miss.

I detest Ceroc Essentials but i teach them cuz we "have" to, altho if someone could clear this up for me it would be great (altho having been on the teahcing course and spending an hour learning how to "teach" the essentials i think its a must)

My class (as lynn knows) tend to huddle at the back of the room and look sheepish while i am trying to get everyone involved. To be honest i sometimes feel like saying " you think like you look like a prat, trying being on stage and doing it!!!" I think it was introduced just to make us teachers look silly!

I agree with Trampy you have to go over the ceroc essential stuff ie the step back the hand hold etc again anyway so why warm up to stand still for 3-5 mins whiles its done again (7 or so minutes for the extra ladies)

drathzel
26th-March-2006, 08:27 PM
Its easy and puts begineers at ease and gets some people into BEAT.


Or makes the feel stupid and they ignore the beat anyway (either cuz they are nervous or dont realise they are on the wrong beat)

Andy McGregor
26th-March-2006, 10:23 PM
Or makes the feel stupid and they ignore the beat anyway (either cuz they are nervous or dont realise they are on the wrong beat)Ahh, the Ceroc essentials is about identifying the right beat. So it's not aerobics, it's about music. Why didn't somebody say? - hangs up his legwarmers in shame :blush:

drathzel
26th-March-2006, 10:46 PM
Why didn't somebody say? - hangs up his legwarmers in shame :blush:

Keep them out, i wanna see this!!!:D

Lynn
26th-March-2006, 10:50 PM
My class (as lynn knows) tend to huddle at the back of the room and look sheepish while i am trying to get everyone involved. That's true! :rofl: They do leave rather a large gap, but are happy enough to move forward once the essentials bit is over and the rest of the class starts. I think because you have to stand in lines facing front and if there is someone behind you, you worry they are watching how you are doing it - so everyone wants to be in the back row...

Alice
27th-March-2006, 12:22 AM
So. Do people think that the ceroc essentials are a good thing?

From my point of view, I don't like them. I have never done any 'solo' dancing, so feel uncomfortable doing that - especially on the stage. So, when I cover teach, I don't do them. I've never had anyone tell me that they miss them, I've had several people tell me that they are happy not doing them when I teach.

From a learning point of view, I don't see any point in them. Anything I want to cover when doing essentials - like weight transference etc. - I can cover when actually teaching the class.

From a 'warm-up' point of view, I also don't see any point. A couple of minutes 'warm-up', followed by then standing around for 5 mins while you teach the basics, renders them rather a waste of time as a warm-up.

It seems to me now, that a lot of people turn up late, in order to miss doing the essentials. I know that intermediates never turn up on time, but these days, it seems that we start with very few people at the beginning of the class, and end up with many more by the end of the beginners class. More so than we used to have.

Anyhow, what do you all think? :D
So what exactly does "ceroc essentials" involve? and how does it fit in with the beginner class? There seems to be a lot of mention of warming up then standing around for a while- why does that happen? Is that when the beginner routine is shown before being taught? And could that part be done before "warming up" with ceroc essentials?

TheTramp
27th-March-2006, 12:37 AM
So what exactly does "ceroc essentials" involve? and how does it fit in with the beginner class? There seems to be a lot of mention of warming up then standing around for a while- why does that happen? Is that when the beginner routine is shown before being taught? And could that part be done before "warming up" with ceroc essentials?

It's supposed to be an ice-breaker I guess. Nothing is particularly taught that couldn't be taught in the normal class. Different people teach different things, the people I see most often: one does it as something quite like a line-dancing class with a bit of practise doing "in and outs" then; one does a bit of a step back, with then some spinning practise, but without explaining exactly how to spin; another does some weight transferance.

It's definitely NOT a warm-up. At least, it may be, but since you then just stand around after for long enough to cool down, it's rather pointless, if that is the idea.

I guess that maybe it's supposed to help put people at ease, which it might do in some cases. It wouldn't have done anything like that for me. I also think that it's a bit of a waste of time. The time it takes, you'd get the class done earlier, and probably have a couple of tracks extra in freestyle.

To be honest, I think that as many people are put off/don't enjoy it, as who do and find it helps. Certainly, most intermediates seem to aim to miss doing them. I don't particularly see any point to them myself.

From talking to teachers, I'd say that it's probably split somewhere down the middle on what the teachers think about it as well. And some (myself included) definitely feel uncomfortable doing them.

Alice
27th-March-2006, 01:15 AM
It's supposed to be an ice-breaker I guess. Nothing is particularly taught that couldn't be taught in the normal class. Different people teach different things, the people I see most often: one does it as something quite like a line-dancing class with a bit of practise doing "in and outs" then; one does a bit of a step back, with then some spinning practise, but without explaining exactly how to spin; another does some weight transferance.

It's definitely NOT a warm-up. At least, it may be, but since you then just stand around after for long enough to cool down, it's rather pointless, if that is the idea.

I guess that maybe it's supposed to help put people at ease, which it might do in some cases. It wouldn't have done anything like that for me. I also think that it's a bit of a waste of time. The time it takes, you'd get the class done earlier, and probably have a couple of tracks extra in freestyle.

To be honest, I think that as many people are put off/don't enjoy it, as who do and find it helps. Certainly, most intermediates seem to aim to miss doing them. I don't particularly see any point to them myself.

From talking to teachers, I'd say that it's probably split somewhere down the middle on what the teachers think about it as well. And some (myself included) definitely feel uncomfortable doing them.
In that case, I would have thought it would be easier to do all that within the class as it comes up- ie a short explanation of how to spin before learning a lady spin. Or do it in the consolidation class- I still think it's important to cover this stuff but it's probably more useful for the earlier beginners (depending on what's covered).

We often start the intermediate class with a bit of step footwork practice- as we have different footwork in beginners (whether beginner footwork itself is a total waste of time is another question!).
However, I believe that one of our venues that a special beginners' venue does incorporate extra spinning practice etc which is done separately to the actual class....

MartinHarper
27th-March-2006, 02:34 AM
I think because you have to stand in lines facing front and if there is someone behind you, you worry they are watching how you are doing it - so everyone wants to be in the back row...

Several line dances incorporate a quarter turn: "Macarena", "Saturday Night", and (if I remember right) the "Jitterbug Stroll". I guess it's for just that reason. You could do something similar with the Essentials.

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2006, 07:20 AM
I've only seen Ceroc essentials 4 times. Each time the teacher had the attitude "let's get these over with so I can get on with the lesson". I can think of 2 reasons why they have Ceroc Essentials and they're nothing to do with the content.

1. They differentiate Ceroc as the competition don't do them.

2. They keep people busy while other people are arriving and paying.

Other than that, I saw nothing that couldn't have been taught in the actual lesson - or left out completely!

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2006, 07:23 AM
Now that I've voted in the poll I've seen the results. How come nobody has posted the "point" of Ceroc Essentials but 10 people voted that they have a point - what is it? :confused:

Heather
27th-March-2006, 07:38 AM
Not up here :clap:

:yeah:

WE'RE officially smoke free up here in Scotland as from yesterday - 26th March!:clap: :clap:

:hug:
Heather

ducasi
27th-March-2006, 08:24 AM
Now that I've voted in the poll I've seen the results. How come nobody has posted the "point" of Ceroc Essentials but 10 people voted that they have a point - what is it? :confused:
For what it's worth, I voted for them, and this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=216352&postcount=11) is what I posted in support of them.

The question is "do they have a point?" Even if the point is lost on many folks, doesn't mean they're pointless.

bigdjiver
27th-March-2006, 08:53 AM
There may be a legal and PR issues. It is generally recommended that one should warm up before exercise - They could be "essential" as a potential defence against allegations of unprofessionalism. Ashas been said, by Trampy and others, I believe the structure of the beginners class fills that function.

If that argument is going to be used, it logically follows that late-comers should be warned that they risk injuring themselves if they do not warm-up.

The only people that do not realise that they are optional are absolute beginners. For me the argument should be "What is the beginner retention rate with / without essentials?" This is a question that the Ceroc Database should be able to answer. Alas, it does not record the all of the relevant details.

Dreadful Scathe
27th-March-2006, 09:56 AM
But it's still 16 months til the ban comes into force so we still have to fight scirmishes to erradicate pockets of resistance.

oh no it isnt - full ban in place :) Im might occasionally go into pubs now.

tsh
27th-March-2006, 10:52 AM
As always, it depends on the teacher.... I think there is some value in starting a class with an exersise which involves moving the feet - but even in the essentials, some teachers seem to like encouraging the beginners to see how far they can stretch their hand out behind them as they step back.

A non-partnered warm up (think line dancing) seems to work, but that's not what 'essentials' seems to be...

Sean

drathzel
27th-March-2006, 12:07 PM
1. They differentiate Ceroc as the competition don't do them

Salsa classes in NI (that i have been to) have something similar! So point null and void!

I wonder what other franchise owners make of the essentials? Do you make your teachers do them?

Dreadful Scathe
27th-March-2006, 12:42 PM
Salsa classes in NI (that i have been to) have something similar! So point null and void!


No it isnt - Salsa is not Modern Jive ;)

Gadget
27th-March-2006, 01:56 PM
I don't have time for a lengthy reply, but this was cut from Feedback on recent changes (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2425) way back on 12th Feb 04

In principle, I think that the warm ups are a good idea. In execution, I think that they are poorly thought out and planned. Nothing derogitary about the execution, just the contents and over-all presentation:
- Simple side steps are a good way to introduce 'finding the rhythm', but should be presented in a way that is actually used when dancing (eg arm-jive footwork)
- Same with forward/back steps; they should be the same as used in walks.
- The emphisis should be made about small, 'natural' steps, and this could be prompted again during the beginner lesson.
- Introduction to spins and turns should be included; the way I would do it would be to turn 180º, then when partnered, have the man step in while the lady turns (back to you), and step back when they turn back to face. Again, I would remind people when doing a return during the lesson.
- I would also build these moves into a micro-routine of side/side for 2, fore/back for 2, turn, turn.
- The only thing I think the warm up lacks is the vital element of Lead/Follow: perhaps the men should go through a few beats leading the lady side/side, fore/back and mix them up so the lady has to follow.

I still think they are a good thing and that they have improved.

Donna
27th-March-2006, 02:15 PM
.If that argument is going to be used, it logically follows that late-comers should be warned that they risk injuring themselves if they do not warm-up.

:yeah: It doesn't matter how much class time it wastes... I think peoples saftey is more important. Besides, it only takes a few minutes to warm up properly. I'm sure it worth using up about 10 minutes or so in a class than to see somebody who didn't warm up properly get injured.

I know you're standing there most of the time when being taught a lesson, but at least you've loosened off and are still on the go, so it's better than going into it without warming up plus it still reduces the chance of injury.

drathzel
27th-March-2006, 04:44 PM
No it isnt - Salsa is not Modern Jive ;)

i was refering to andy mcgregors comment on the competition, i was assuming he meant general competition as opposed to just jive competition! But he can clear that one up!:D

Edit:- Also my only competition is salsa and the like as there is no jive that i am aware of! So this point is very valid to me!!!!

El Salsero Gringo
27th-March-2006, 05:36 PM
Speaking personally, I can't think of anything that impacted on my daily life like smoking did. It created no-go areas and required constant vigilance just to avoid an clear and present health risk. Nothing else is quite the same in terms of invasiveness.Unlicensed dancing is, allegedly. At least according lady that accosted me while busking last weekend. She told me that dancing in the street was bad for the community, bad for local people, and worse in fact than passive smoking.

So there you have it. Killer Ceroc.

(I should just add that it wasn't me that she was watching at the time - before all the wags get in there.)

Donna
27th-March-2006, 05:40 PM
Unlicensed dancing is, allegedly. At least according lady that accosted me while busking last weekend. She told me that dancing in the street was bad for the community, bad for local people, and worse in fact than passive smoking.

So there you have it. Killer Ceroc.

(I should just add that it wasn't me that she was watching at the time - before all the wags get in there.)


:eek: :rofl:

Frankie_4711
27th-March-2006, 05:57 PM
IMO there is no point to The Essentials. Thankfully, I don't have to suffer them often, but when I do I just sort of glaze over or nod off and carry on on auto-pilot! As has been said, they don't really work well as a warm up, and everything could (and usually is) taught in the class anyway, so it's just wasting time.

drathzel
27th-March-2006, 06:15 PM
Unlicensed dancing is, allegedly. At least according lady that accosted me while busking last weekend. She told me that dancing in the street was bad for the community, bad for local people, and worse in fact than passive smoking.

So there you have it. Killer Ceroc.

(I should just add that it wasn't me that she was watching at the time - before all the wags get in there.)

Ah, if that had of been here i would have had great pleasure in saying we had as much right to be there as she did as in N.I we can dance/busk in the street completely legally as long as we let the local police know first! Did she let the police know her whereabouts before leaving the house???:devil:

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2006, 06:16 PM
i was refering to andy mcgregors comment on the competition, i was assuming he meant general competition as opposed to just jive competition! But he can clear that one up!:D

Edit:- Also my only competition is salsa and the like as there is no jive that i am aware of! So this point is very valid to me!!!!I really meant MJ competition. To conduct a proper experiment I think we need someone to open up in Belfast with a MJ class that does not do the "essentials" but does everything else the same.

drathzel
27th-March-2006, 06:18 PM
I really meant MJ competition. To conduct a proper experiment I think we need someone to open up in Belfast with a MJ class that does not do the "essentials" but does everything else the same.

Dont give them any bl00dy ideas:na:

Chef
27th-March-2006, 06:30 PM
Dont give them any bl00dy ideas:na:

If anybody did open up another MJ event in Belfast then I am Lynn will be a bit ticked off. No MJ in Northen Ireland for years and years and then two come along at once.:grin:

bigdjiver
27th-March-2006, 06:34 PM
I really meant MJ competition. To conduct a proper experiment I think we need someone to open up in Belfast with a MJ class that does not do the "essentials" but does everything else the same.
To do a business evaluation one simply needs to compare beginner retention before/after essentials were introduced, and to stagger their introduction in different venues, and to compare average times of arrival before and after.

drathzel
27th-March-2006, 06:37 PM
If anybody did open up another MJ event in Belfast then I am Lynn will be a bit ticked off. No MJ in Northen Ireland for years and years and then two come along at once.:grin:

Yeah but i know where her loyalities lie!! (no pressure at all:whistle: )

Lynn
27th-March-2006, 06:47 PM
No MJ in Northen Ireland for years and years and then two come along at once.:grin:What, like buses...:rolleyes:

I would be a bit miffed actually as it would be to the detriment of both Ceroc and the independant!

drathzel
27th-March-2006, 06:54 PM
What, like buses...:rolleyes:

I would be a bit miffed actually as it would be to the detriment of both Ceroc and the independant!

:yeah: :D

spindr
28th-March-2006, 12:03 AM
I really meant MJ competition. To conduct a proper experiment I think we need someone to open up in Belfast with a MJ class that does not do the "essentials" but does everything else the same.
What you mean something like "Nice Roc"??

SpinDr.

drathzel
28th-March-2006, 12:30 AM
What you mean something like "Nice Roc"??

SpinDr.

You flogging that one again???:D

jivecat
28th-March-2006, 10:28 AM
It's supposed to be an ice-breaker I guess. Nothing is particularly taught that couldn't be taught in the normal class. Different people teach different things, the people I see most often: one does it as something quite like a line-dancing class with a bit of practise doing "in and outs" then; one does a bit of a step back, with then some spinning practise, but without explaining exactly how to spin; another does some weight transferance.

I guess that maybe it's supposed to help put people at ease, which it might do in some cases. It wouldn't have done anything like that for me. I also think that it's a bit of a waste of time. The time it takes, you'd get the class done earlier, and probably have a couple of tracks extra in freestyle.

To be honest, I think that as many people are put off/don't enjoy it, as who do and find it helps. Certainly, most intermediates seem to aim to miss doing them. I don't particularly see any point to them myself.

From talking to teachers, I'd say that it's probably split somewhere down the middle on what the teachers think about it as well. And some (myself included) definitely feel uncomfortable doing them.

I don't really know what the fuss is all about. In any other dance form you would have to spend hours/ months/ years practising exercises to acquire the techniques to enable you to perform well and look good on the dance floor, I don't see why MJ should be any different. It seems to me that 5 minutes of basic skills/ technique practice is a pretty pathetic prerequisite for turning a shambling, unfit, uncoordinated slice of Joe Public into the kind of smooth, elegant, sophisticated type of dancer that we are all hoping to get to dance with. In fact, if I had my way we'd all have a good hour of gruelling training before the main business of the evening got started! That'd see off the yankers who are only there to pull.

Having got that off my chest, unaccountably I seem only be able to recollect being in attendance for one essentials session.:whistle: That was Alex Faulkner, who did some footwork before the beginners lesson and then incorporated it into the routines. It worked really well - anybody who has watched beginners / low intermediates struggle to coordinate shifting their weight from foot to foot in any kind of smooth and balanced way could hardly doubt that it was time well spent.

I think basic skills should be practised solo before incorporating them in to the partner section of the class. Many beginners find working with a partner when they are not used to it quite stressful, so there is a benefit to be had in working through the material without that stress. I love dancing solo anyway and think it's useful for developing skills that can be applied to partner dance.

People who come to Ceroc with a good grounding in any physical activity that requires fitness, coordination and balance might find the Ceroc essentials a bit basic - but that is not the case for the majority of Ceroc punters.

bigdjiver
28th-March-2006, 10:31 AM
Spurred on by this thread I got to the local class early. Very few there for 7.45 - the teacher postponed the class start. at 7.48 there was a queue at the desk - just in time to miss the "essentials"? The "essentials" started with 1/3 of those present, 1/3 chatting, 1/3 in various stages of arrival. The class proper started with a third line being formed, and with all of those present bar 5.

Nothing can be deduced from one observation - but if the "essentials" are delaying peoples arrival and the class start, then I would consider them "harmful."

TheTramp
28th-March-2006, 10:36 AM
I don't really know what the fuss is all about. In any other dance form you would have to spend hours/ months/ years practising exercises to acquire the techniques to enable you to perform well and look good on the dance floor, I don't see why MJ should be any different. It seems to me that 5 minutes of basic skills/ technique practice is a pretty pathetic prerequisite for turning a shambling, unfit, uncoordinated slice of Joe Public into the kind of smooth, elegant, sophisticated type of dancer that we are all hoping to get to dance with. In fact, if I had my way we'd all have a good hour of gruelling training before the main business of the evening got started! That'd see off the yankers who are only there to pull.

Having got that off my chest, unaccountably I seem only be able to recollect being in attendance for one essentials session.:whistle: That was Alex Faulkner, who did some footwork before the beginners lesson and then incorporated it into the routines. It worked really well - anybody who has watched beginners / low intermediates struggle to coordinate shifting their weight from foot to foot in any kind of smooth and balanced way could hardly doubt that it was time well spent.

I think basic skills should be practised solo before incorporating them in to the partner section of the class. Many beginners find working with a partner when they are not used to it quite stressful, so there is a benefit to be had in working through the material without that stress. I love dancing solo anyway and think it's useful for developing skills that can be applied to partner dance.

People who come to Ceroc with a good grounding in any physical activity that requires fitness, coordination and balance might find the Ceroc essentials a bit basic - but that is not the case for the majority of Ceroc punters.

At last. Someone has posted something that could almost be seen as a 'point' to the essentials. I was also wondering what the other 12 people who've voted that there is one could say for them. Sorry I've just repped you for something else, or I'd do it again.

I notice that you love dancing solo. Do you think that this is possibly a reason why you don't mind doing the essentials, and why you think there's a benefit?

As someone who never had, and still doesn't ever do any serious solo dancing (you'd never get me on a dancefloor at a nightclub, unless I could do modern jive there!), I don't necessarily agree with you. But that's fine. We can agree to disagree on this point.

And likewise, I still don't see that any exercises that talk about weight change / distribution / balance etc. can't just be taught as part of the class (quite possibly separate from your partner), without making them something different at the beginning, under a separate heading as it were.

jivecat
28th-March-2006, 10:51 AM
I notice that you love dancing solo. Do you think that this is possibly a reason why you don't mind doing the essentials, and why you think there's a benefit?
I suppose I'm used to dancing solo, so it doesn't make me feel like a prat. In fact I'm more likely to feel like a prat if I have to do something I find difficult when I'm dancing with a partner, because I don't like looking like an idiot with some bloke watching me! I also think that the skills I practise dancing solo have a lot of bearing on the way I do partner dancing.



As someone who never had, and still doesn't ever do any serious solo dancing (you'd never get me on a dancefloor at a nightclub, unless I could do modern jive there!), I don't necessarily agree with you. But that's fine. We can agree to disagree on this point.
OK.:D


And likewise, I still don't see that any exercises that talk about weight change / distribution / balance etc. can't just be taught as part of the class (quite possibly separate from your partner), without making them something different at the beginning, under a separate heading as it were.

Well, as I said before, most other dances, possibly most other forms of sport, teach essential skills in isolation so that the precise technique can be really focussed upon without other distractions. Dancing well is not easy, after all. A ballet dancer would do an hour's daily class at the barre repeating basic movements which would be quite separate from learning choreography and rehearsal time.
But really, I don't care where and how novice dancers get their skills training, as long as they get it.

Genie
28th-March-2006, 12:58 PM
And likewise, I still don't see that any exercises that talk about weight change / distribution / balance etc. can't just be taught as part of the class (quite possibly separate from your partner), without making them something different at the beginning, under a separate heading as it were.

So what your saying babe, is that if the teacher showed them the routine first, then, just before the first move (say a ladyspin) they give a few pointers on lady spinning, and so on. Rather than tack it all on the begining under the heading 'essentials' it could be put in the lesson, under the same heading of 'class'.

But you're still doing the same exercises... just under a diff. name. Is that the gist of what you want?

I agree that the steps can help beginners find a rhythm, but then they stand and watch the routine - try the first move, and the DJ puts a diff song on - with a diff rhythm. So it would probably help if 'essentials' were incorportated better into the lesson.

Any form of 'steps' is likely to throw complete beginners off anyway. They're too busy concentrating on arms, and not falling over in spins.

bigdjiver
28th-March-2006, 01:10 PM
... I don't like looking like an idiot with some bloke watching me! ...This was one of the things I hated about Salsa, doing the footwork in lines with all the ladies looking across the room at us, obviously out of step. Now we have this imported into Ceroc, and I worry that it might be putting some of our beginners off. I do not doubt that it helps others, but believe that lessons could do the job as well.

Tessalicious
28th-March-2006, 02:58 PM
Good thread Trampy. I just wish that more of the people who take the idea seriously would speak their mind rather than just voting in favour ( :worthy: jivecat, well put and bravely said).

I personally taxi at a venue where the Ceroc Essentials are done every week, and IMHO done quite well, partly because the teacher is relatively new to teaching and so hasn't ever really done it differently, so she doesn't treat it as an additional chore. She teaches the step back as a weight transfer, how to use either foot and therefore to get used to what is most comfortable for you (Andy, don't you dare go off on the 'which-foot' tangent), and often, if there is a spinning aspect to either the beginners or intermediate class, a jot of basic technique for spinning.

As a result of this, not only do the ladies at the side start off the class being able to dance with everyone else, everyone gets an ice-breaker where they don't have to worry that they are doing something their partner objects to (because they don't have one at this point) and everyone gets to listen to some music and get the idea of moving to it before they are taught any dancing. Not only that, but everyone gets to learn, and practise without feeling pressured, some technique that even plenty of intermediates don't know.

Not only that, but when I dance with early beginners later during the freestyle, it is much much much much easier to start off the dance with them by asking them to "lead me to move to the beat with them", as I often do with guys who are lacking in confidence or instant rhythm. They can accept the usefulness of doing basic movements in time with the music so that they don't feel stupid doing so, and don't feel the need to be doing moves they haven't really got the hang of yet.

As you can probably tell, I think the Ceroc Essentials are really useful. They are "essentials" in the context of being handy "basics" or "foundations", not in terms of being absolute requirements for everybody - but essentials is a better name than basics, because as soon as you suggest that something is basic, no-one who thinks they're any good wants to do them.

However, I don't think they should be done by a teacher who disagrees with them, because that defeats the other purpose of getting the class comfortable with the teacher. If you don't enjoy something or don't see its relevance, don't teach it. Simple as that.
Killer Ceroc.

(I should just add that it wasn't me that she was watching at the time - before all the wags get in there.)No, it was me! :tears:

jivecat
28th-March-2006, 03:30 PM
..... jivecat, well put and bravely said.....
Not at all, I thoroughly enjoyed it.:D :D




As you can probably tell, I think the Ceroc Essentials are really useful. They are "essentials" in the context of being handy "basics" or "foundations", not in terms of being absolute requirements for everybody - but essentials is a better name than basics, because as soon as you suggest that something is basic, no-one who thinks they're any good wants to do them. True. Though strangely, in most other dance forms/sports nobody seems to think top performers can skip basic training - though they might be expected to perform the basics to a very advanced level.


However, I don't think they should be done by a teacher who disagrees with them, because that defeats the other purpose of getting the class comfortable with the teacher. If you don't enjoy something or don't see its relevance, don't teach it. Simple as that.
Not sure about this. I think there are lesson structures that are proven to work across a wide range of applications and if lessons diverge too widely from this there's a risk they won't be as effective. I would see a warm-up/ basics/ essentials session as an essential preparation for what they will be expected to learn in the main section of the class. For most beginners moves are challenging enough without the extra burden of thinking about the technique required, so I think it's perfectly appropriate to deal with it in a separate part of the lesson, then revise that learning during the "moves" bit of the class.
I presume this is why the government has decreed that every 5 - 11 teacher in the land has to begin their maths lesson with a 5 minute mental maths exercise. Somebody, somewhere must have decided that it's a teaching method that works?

TheTramp
28th-March-2006, 03:36 PM
I presume this is why the government has decreed that every 5 - 11 teacher in the land has to begin their maths lesson with a 5 minute mental maths exercise. Somebody, somewhere must have decided that it's a teaching method that works?
I thought that most teachers were under the impression that the people in charge had no idea what they were doing though!! :whistle:

(Of course, I draw no comparisons between school teachers and the education authority, and what happens anywhere else, most of all, in Ceroc classes! :D )

jivecat
28th-March-2006, 03:55 PM
I thought that most teachers were under the impression that the people in charge had no idea what they were doing though!! :whistle:

Oh no, we all obediently fall into line. :rolleyes:

jivecat
28th-March-2006, 03:58 PM
(Of course, I draw no comparisons between school teachers and the education authority, and what happens anywhere else, most of all, in Ceroc classes! :D )

I think one big difference is that school teachers are expected to make damn sure their pupils learn something and heads will roll if they don't, whereas at Ceroc, if you learn something, fine, if not, they've got your money anyway.

And you can dance as cr*p as you like for as long as you like without any intervention from the teacher. They're not being paid by results, after all. Thank goodness for Taxi dancers like Tessalicious.

Andy McGregor
28th-March-2006, 04:52 PM
And you can dance as cr*p as you like for as long as you like without any intervention from the teacher. They're not being paid by results, after all. Thank goodness for Taxi dancers like Tessalicious.As I teacher who does intervene I can see the sense in not doing it. Some people feel insulted that you've felt the need to correct their dancing. Up until that point they thought they were perfect :tears:

Baruch
28th-March-2006, 04:54 PM
I think one big difference is that school teachers are expected to make damn sure their pupils learn something and heads will roll if they don't, whereas at Ceroc, if you learn something, fine, if not, they've got your money anyway.

And you can dance as cr*p as you like for as long as you like without any intervention from the teacher. They're not being paid by results, after all. Thank goodness for Taxi dancers like Tessalicious.
I've met one or two school teachers like that, though they are in a tiny minority. The teachers in question put their programme before the children's learning -- quantity of work was what counted, not quality of learning.

Like I said, they're a tiny minority. The vast majority of us teachers want children to learn and achieve their full potential, and do what we can to help them achieve that.

I thought that most teachers were under the impression that the people in charge had no idea what they were doing though!! :whistle:

(Of course, I draw no comparisons between school teachers and the education authority, and what happens anywhere else, most of all, in Ceroc classes! :D )Believe me, the vast majority of school teachers would regard that as a valid comparison!

drathzel
28th-March-2006, 08:18 PM
I think one big difference is that school teachers are expected to make damn sure their pupils learn something and heads will roll if they don't, whereas at Ceroc, if you learn something, fine, if not, they've got your money anyway.


I am going to disagree with you here, and it could be the fact that i teach and own the franchise cuz i want people to learnbut i spend lots of time going through things individually and as part of the class to make sure my class are picking it up and if they aren't, why not? is it something i am doing, could i explain better, is the routine too hard, am i dancing it right?????

I spend a lot of time working with individuals, i work the room all night making suer everyone gets a dance with me, in fact my taxi dancers and demos ask me if its ok to ask me to dance or am i still working. I have trained my taxi dancers so that they are up to scratch, taking my own time and money to hire a hall, have some nibbles etc while i was going through the finer details of taxi-ing. I resent any comment that we are in it for the money, i certainly am not, all i worry is that i have enough clients to pay my venue and venue manager, if this means 15 people show up, then i dont care and i do my best to make sure they have a good night!

jivecat
28th-March-2006, 08:45 PM
I am going to disagree with you here, and it could be the fact that i teach and own the franchise cuz i want people to learnbut i spend lots of time going through things individually and as part of the class to make sure my class are picking it up and if they aren't, why not? is it something i am doing, could i explain better, is the routine too hard, am i dancing it right?????

I spend a lot of time working with individuals, i work the room all night making suer everyone gets a dance with me, in fact my taxi dancers and demos ask me if its ok to ask me to dance or am i still working. I have trained my taxi dancers so that they are up to scratch, taking my own time and money to hire a hall, have some nibbles etc while i was going through the finer details of taxi-ing. I resent any comment that we are in it for the money, i certainly am not, all i worry is that i have enough clients to pay my venue and venue manager, if this means 15 people show up, then i dont care and i do my best to make sure they have a good night!

Yes, I can see why you might be annoyed by my post. You've worked hard and deserve to be successful. Within the framework of a standard Ceroc lesson - big crowd, one teacher - it is not really feasible to give much individual feedback but you are obviously working like hell to do just that. Sorry.:flower: I'm just griping about the shortcomings of the Ceroc model really which is more to do with entertainment than dance training. Which is why I'm glad when the Ceroc Essentials are taught because they compensate just a little bit for that.

I should also make a lot more allowances for individual teachers who may not be franchise holders but who still show a high level of commitment to developing their venues and providing good teaching within the Ceroc framework.

drathzel
28th-March-2006, 08:51 PM
Yes, I can see why you might be annoyed by my post. You've worked hard and deserve to be successful. Within the framework of a standard Ceroc lesson - big crowd, one teacher - it is not really feasible to give much individual feedback but you are obviously working like hell to do just that. Sorry.:flower: I'm just griping about the shortcomings of the Ceroc model really which is more to do with entertainment than dance training. Which is why I'm glad when the Ceroc Essentials are taught because they compensate just a little bit for that.

I should also make a lot more allowances for individual teachers who may not be franchise holders but who still show a high level of commitment to developing their venues and providing good teaching within the Ceroc framework.

It is harder when there is a bigger crowd but i think that teachers should be on the same time scale as taxi's ie work til time X. I dont think its fair to leave all the post class help up to the taxis but thats another subject!

To enlighten the masses, when we are taught to teach essentials we were told to do the weight transfer bit with each foot, then up to speed steping it in and out. Then you match up with your partner and basically teach the in and out to music.

I dont neccessarily teach it that way, mainly cuz of the amount of women in my classes, i just try and do the first part to get people in the beat and doing the weight transfer part.

I do think it has helped but i also think a good teacher should be able to include this in the teach!:hug:

Lynn
28th-March-2006, 10:04 PM
I spend a lot of time working with individuals, i work the room all night making suer everyone gets a dance with me... I can vouch for that! :D

Back to the essentials, I can see some point for absolute beginners, getting on the floor and moving to the beat etc, but I still think there is an embarrassment factor that some people feel in solo dancing, and for those people it means their first experience of dancing at a Ceroc night is feeling silly.:(

Alice
30th-March-2006, 12:02 AM
I can vouch for that! :D

Back to the essentials, I can see some point for absolute beginners, getting on the floor and moving to the beat etc, but I still think there is an embarrassment factor that some people feel in solo dancing, and for those people it means their first experience of dancing at a Ceroc night is feeling silly.:(
Um, won't they be feeling silly anyway at their first night? I sure do when I dance as a lead (only a very beginnery lead as yet).
I think teaching these things sounds like a great idea- anything to teach people some basic skills like finding/keeping to the beat- and I think it's often much easier to practice some things when they've been isolated so you only have one thing to concentrate on. But maybe the ceroc essentials would be better taught in a consolidation class (you do have those don't you?)...

bigdjiver
30th-March-2006, 12:33 AM
Um, won't they be feeling silly anyway at their first night? ... In a class it is a one-to-one situation, and you usually only look an idiot to your partner. Essentials is done in lines at my local venues, and if you are going back when everyone else is going forward and on the "other left" foot ...

Lynn
30th-March-2006, 11:19 AM
In a class it is a one-to-one situation, and you usually only look an idiot to your partner. Essentials is done in lines at my local venues, and if you are going back when everyone else is going forward and on the "other left" foot ...Yes, that's what I meant. In class you know the person in the row beside you is too busy concentrating on thier partner to watch you. In a line, unless you are the back row, you are aware of the people behind you possibly noticing what you are doing wrong.