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View Full Version : Are you going to Hammersmith on the 18th?



Spin dryer
15th-March-2006, 08:02 PM
Who is going to Hammersmith on the 18th?

WittyBird
15th-March-2006, 08:07 PM
I don't have much choice I have 2 rather lovely guests staying with me :respect:

Georgious dancer
15th-March-2006, 08:20 PM
I will b there, with my lovely friends, taz and dirty d! :clap:

so who are your lovely guests witty?

under par
18th-March-2006, 08:55 AM
Mrs Par and I will now be attending see you all there....:yeah:

wayaay bird
18th-March-2006, 03:32 PM
I cant decide whether to go or not..
I'm sooo tired and was out last night and 2moro night.. but then dont like staying in, this is hard!!!
:sad:

Xxx

Paul F
18th-March-2006, 03:39 PM
Gutted that I wont be going. If it was the normal Hammersmith I wouldnt be so bothered but Mr. Substance in the blues room with the CD - tempting.

Just about to tuck into my first beer of the day so there is no turning back now.

Msfab
18th-March-2006, 04:12 PM
Gutted that I wont be going. If it was the normal Hammersmith I wouldnt be so bothered but Mr. Substance in the blues room with the CD - tempting.

Just about to tuck into my first beer of the day so there is no turning back now.

Its never too late!:rolleyes:

Tazmanian Devil
18th-March-2006, 04:14 PM
Gutted that I wont be going. If it was the normal Hammersmith I wouldnt be so bothered but Mr. Substance in the blues room with the CD - tempting.

Just about to tuck into my first beer of the day so there is no turning back now.


:tears: :tears: Mr Hancock is not going to be gracing us with his presence either

:tears: :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears:

Spicey, Dirty D, Asif, Marc, Foxy etc It's over to you guys to keep us happy in the blues room :kiss: :hug:

WittyBird
18th-March-2006, 05:18 PM
so who are your lovely guests witty?


The very lovely Marc and Rachel :clap: Party at mine after Hammersmith then :cheers:

fletch
18th-March-2006, 05:32 PM
The very lovely Marc and Rachel :clap: Party at mine after Hammersmith then :cheers:
Now 'y' have you put that :tears: :tears: :tears:

Its not fair, Fletch stamps her feet and stomps out:mad:

ChrisA
19th-March-2006, 11:48 AM
Well, my first Hammersmith for at least a year, enticed there by talk of Marc DJing in the blues room. And I have to say it was a pretty reasonable night.

Despite the fact that I forgot my Ceroc card, they didn't make me rejoin at gunpoint the way they used to, and there was a glass of something green (presumably Irish) available on arrival, which I forgot to come back for after heading downstairs to locate the blues room.

I got there at about 9.30 (Marc wasn't starting till 10), in order to give the class a wide berth, and it wasn't all that busy on the dance floor.

After 10, I spent most of the time downstairs, so I can't comment on much of the music upstairs, but when I did venture out of the sauna downstairs, there was space to dance, and the music wasn't unpleasant. Usually at Hammersmith I hate the music and I hate the kickfest that it invariably is. But this time, there was more space, the floor wasn't sticky at all, and the music was quite pleasant, not bangy at all. Maybe I just got lucky though - would be interested in the perceptions of others if they spent more time upstairs.

The pizza man was there, selling his wares for £4; I had one at about midnight, and it did the trick, enabling me to go on till the 2am finish.

Overall, a very positive impression of the night. Marc played a very Marcy set, well up to the standard we expect of him nowadays; lots of variety, nice mood control, not much in the way of adventurous new material, but that was probably right for the occasion, so a good judgement there. He's still in my top 3 DJs.

One criticism though: they obviously didn't make the existence of the blues room anywhere near clear enough. I went upstairs for a break at about 1am, and ran into a friend who was leaving (quite a good dancer) who had had a rotten night, and hadn't known about the blues room. She was quite pissed off - "so that's where all the good dancers were then" was her comment.

In that context, it would be interesting to know whether the existence of the second room had a beneficial effect on the night overall. Obviously I liked it, cos I got the sort of music I like dancing to. But did it change the dynamic upstairs much?

Cruella
19th-March-2006, 11:58 AM
She was quite pissed off - "so that's where all the good dancers were then" was her comment.
. But did it change the dynamic upstairs much?
I'm only guessing, as i wasn't there:tears: that your friend hit the nail on the head! It would be detrimental to the main room as most of the experienced dancers would have stayed in the blues room. This happens on weekenders too which is a shame. I remember at Storm going upstairs for some more upbeat dances and struggling to find some of the experienced men as they were mostly in the Chillout room.

Zebra Woman
19th-March-2006, 12:11 PM
:yeah: to all that. I haven't ben to Hammersmith for months and I have never had a really good night there, but I loved last night, best Hammersmith ever for me. There did seem to be more room upstairs and I was only kicked once (with no apology, as ever :rolleyes: ).

DJ Annette did announce that the Chill-Out room was opening downstairs, but it was quite a muffled announcement. Did Howard O' Temple mention it during the Irish blues class too? (in the class and for the first dance they really did dance to Irish music!:eek:) .

There were no signs pointing out where the blues room was. A big sign at the top of the stairs would have been seen by everyone as they paid to get in. I feel sorry for your friend who missed out Chris, I would have been gutted to think I'd missed out on the blues room.

Although I don't think many more people could have fitted into the blues room anyway, it was packed full all night. I spent almost the whole night in there. Loved Marc's music :clap: :clap: :clap: and the lighting, and all my dances :drool: , thanks everyone :flower: .

It would be really great to do that again.

How about it Bradders?

PLEASE :flower: :flower: :flower: :flower: :flower: :flower:

Missed you PaulF :hug:


ZW

Lory
19th-March-2006, 12:20 PM
Well, my first Hammersmith for at least a year, enticed there by talk of Marc DJing in the blues room. And I have to say it was a pretty reasonable night.
Me too, I don't think i've been there for nearer two years, cos I hated it so much but like you, Marc's music enticed me! :na:



I can't comment on much of the music upstairs, but when I did venture out of the sauna downstairs, there was space to dance, and the music wasn't unpleasant. I was very pleasantly surprised, I kept looking at my watch, wondering when the hordes were going to appear :confused: But they didn't :clap: I spent longer than I'd expected to upstairs and enjoyed lot's of the music. :grin:

The entertainment - I happened to catch sight of someone dressed in an Irish dancing costume and presumed that was the flavour of it, so, I went downstairs at that point! :nice: I also managed to dance through the DWAS comp, so even that didn't interfere with my night.:clap:

There was NO queue at the bar on any of my visits either.


Overall, a very positive impression of the night. Marc played a very Marcy set, well up to the standard we expect of him nowadays; lots of variety, nice mood control, not much in the way of adventurous new material, but that was probably right for the occasion, so a good judgement there. He's still in my top 3 DJs.:yeah:



One criticism though: they obviously didn't make the existence of the blues room anywhere near clear enough. ooh I don't know, I thought that was a rather good thing! :wink:

My only criticisms of the night were, the Blues room was VERY HOT, so hot in fact, that I actually had to retreat upstairs every now and then, to cool off :what:

And that age old problem, TOO MANY WOMEN! :rolleyes:

Overall though, I had a great night and loads of lovely dances! :cheers:

ChrisA
19th-March-2006, 12:26 PM
ooh I don't know, I thought that was a rather good thing! :wink:

Shhhh.... :devil:



And that age old problem, TOO MANY WOMEN! :rolleyes:

We soooooo need a "talk to the hand" smiley... :devil:

Paul F
19th-March-2006, 12:36 PM
Missed you PaulF :hug:

ZW

I feel sick :sick: Im never drinking again :wink:

It was a good night last night but it sounds like Hammersmith was good too. :clap:

Tazmanian Devil
19th-March-2006, 01:50 PM
Here goes My blab :D

we got there partically early which was nice except for a domestic:eek: I couoldn't believe it. Some guy and his partner walked in she knocked his free drink over by accident and he flipped Threw his bag down and was shouting in her face called her a fu*king stupid cow etc etc :angry: 5 mins later he was being all nice and she was accepting it in fact she was even crawling :angry: I could have quite easily got up and punched him :angry: Later on in the evening he tripped over one of the weights holding the door open that was funny :rofl:

Freestyle I thought was great I didn't really notice the lack of men, I was up and down the stairs like a yoyo due to IMHO the more experienced dancers being split between the 2 rooms :clap: :clap:

Shock Number 2 of the evening was at around 10:30 I was casually dancing with the lovely M when I see no other than Spin dryer Snogging on the dance floor, and I don't mean a little snog I mean a total get a room snog I was totally shocked at his behaviour especially when his partner went blue :rofl:

:D :D I personally had a wonderful time last night :D :D

With special thanks to Spicey :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :yum: Asif :drool: :drool: :yum: Dirty D :drool: :drool: :yum:

and last but most certainly not least Zebra woman :drool: :yum: Soo much fun and certainly one of the sexiest dances of the evening :wink:

Missy D
19th-March-2006, 03:43 PM
Seeing as i wasnt even planning on going to Hammersmith i had a fab time.

And thanks to Steven my DWAS partner we came 2nd. :worthy:
I won a lovely teddy bear so had something to cuddle up to through the night:love:

The music in the blues room was lovely - i kept having to remind myself i was not on holiday abroad. The only thing i hated was the smell of someones body odour.:sick:

Good to see everyone although i didnt really get to talk to many.

Kev F
19th-March-2006, 04:47 PM
I have only been to Hammersmith twice ever and it was the lure of Marc & Rachel that encouraged me to try something new.

Marcs set was fantastic as always :respect: and it was good to venture between the two rooms, as I do love the high impact pop music upstairs too.
The room downstairs was hot, but I actually like the writhing of hot sweaty bodies (as long as they're not too smelly) Do I need help???

I do wish I had a magic wand, so I could rectify the gender balance problems, so the ladies could have more dances too...thus getting more sweaty :devil: :D

It was good to meet some new forumites and put faces to the names. I always enjoy the dances with the forum ladies and it was lovely to dance with those I don't know quite as well again.

I would like to offer a special thanks to MsFab, who managed not to assault me once during our dance. My bruised ribs from camber have just recovered, although she did kindly subject me to a minor bash on the nose at WCS on wednesday. The funny thing is.... I'm kind of missing the abuse :devil: :flower:

Fortunately, Lory managed to knee me in the nuts later in the evening which made me feel a lot better :flower:

A good evening for the walking wounded, but I'm not sure it would be top of my list without Marc & Rachel.

P.S: Had a fantastic dance upstairs to the Pink Panther :drool::drool: which i'd never danced to before....and too many superb dances downstairs to list :drool: :drool: :drool:

jacksondonut
19th-March-2006, 05:03 PM
Had a wonderful evening..:flower: :flower: :flower:

worn out today, but hope you all have a lovely afternoon/evening at Slinky's etc., I am planning on coming next time..!!

enjoying the rest of my birthday and many thanks for my birthday wishes...

Thank you
Jan
x:hug: :hug:

Tazmanian Devil
19th-March-2006, 05:30 PM
Opps forgot to mention the music :rolleyes:

I thoroghly enjoyed the music in both rooms :worthy: Erick, You never let me down :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

Also :worthy: :worthy: Marc, i have only heard you sets a couple of times but each time they have been amazing :worthy: :worthy:


I really did feel torn in two last night with 2 great DJ's and soo many quality people there to dance with. :worthy: :worthy:


Oh well Going to have to do it all again tonight! It's such a hard life :rofl: :rofl:

dee
19th-March-2006, 06:02 PM
Seeing as i wasnt even planning on going to Hammersmith i had a fab time.

And thanks to Steven my DWAS partner we came 2nd. :worthy:
I won a lovely teddy bear so had something to cuddle up to through the night:love:


Well done sis that's great news :clap: :clap: :clap:

Shame i wasn't there to see you :hug:

Missy D
19th-March-2006, 09:51 PM
Well done sis that's great news :clap: :clap: :clap:

Shame i wasn't there to see you :hug:

Thanks Dee:hug:

Sparkles
20th-March-2006, 10:16 AM
Initially I wasn't planning on Hammersmith either, I don't usually have a very good night there and I thought the entry price was a bit steep (£12 is over what I would normally pay), but after hearing about the blues room and the extended freestyle and all the great dancers I knew were going I thought I would try it as a once off.

I was pleased I decided to go in the end. The music upstairs was good for the most part and seeing as it wasn't as crowded as usual it was actually quite nice to dance to some faster-tempo stuff. Mr UP, what can I say :worthy: :flower:. Downstairs was far too hot - everyone enjoying Marc's set too much :wink: - but :worthy: to David Bradley who, on request, sorted out a big fan for the room as soon as the problem was mentioned; it certainly helped!

I had some lovely dances, but I confess they were mostly with the people I usually have lovely dances with :blush: (and I didn't refuse a dance all night, before accusations of 'hotshot' start flying). I too found there were too many women (as always), but it didn't bother me too much as it meant I got the chance to dance with some of the lovely ladies there too :grin:.

Sheepman
20th-March-2006, 03:45 PM
The only thing i hated was the smell of someones body odour.:sick:
It wasn't me! :eek: (I hope.)

Congrats re. the competition :clap: :clap:

It was my first trip to Hammersmith for nearly 2 years, and I had a great time, yes it was pricey, and it was hot in the blues room, but the dancing was :drool: It was also good to come across some new dancers that were so fab. Maybe enough to tempt me back for a non-blues night....?

Greg

Tessalicious
20th-March-2006, 03:56 PM
I had a very unusual night at Hammersmith, so not quite sure what to make of it.

Firstly, sorry and :hug: to everyone I got emotional at early in the evening - still can't explain that one, put it down to irrational femaleness :rolleyes: .

Second, I really enjoyed Marc's music, but as always when there are two rooms, felt torn - should I go upstairs where some of the ultimate classic funky songs are more likely to be played, so I can have a fun dance without having to think too hard and burn off some energy, or stay downstairs where most of the people in the room are people I love to dance with? Further complicated with the fact that I am so used to dancing at Hammersmith with a completely different crowd of (mainly non-forumite) dancers, this meant that I ended up spending as much time climbing the stairs as I did dancing in one room or the other.

Having said that, once I got going I enjoyed almost every dance, thanks to everyone that improved the night for me.

And grrrrrr goes to a certain forumite who, at the end of the evening, managed to bring me right back down to the bad mood I started with, thanks a lot. :angry:

SilverFox
20th-March-2006, 05:04 PM
And grrrrrr goes to a certain forumite who, at the end of the evening, managed to bring me right back down to the bad mood I started with, thanks a lot. :angry:Name him, name him!

No....Flog him, flog him!

In fact.... Burn him, burn him! :D

..or her..:rolleyes:

Cruella
20th-March-2006, 05:09 PM
Name him, name him!

No....Flog him, flog him!

In fact.... Burn him, burn him! :D

..or her..:rolleyes:
You're just hoping it was you so that you can be flogged.:rolleyes:

Tessalicious
20th-March-2006, 05:12 PM
Name him, name him![/SIZE]I'm not usually a fan of naming and shaming, which is why I didn't. And it's even more difficult because as I said, the person involved was a forumite.

However, I guess since I've had no response from him, ******** doesn't even realise that the level of gratuitous groping that I received from him on Saturday night as I was changing my shoes was even slightly inappropriate. It was, more than slightly, and not only made me feel uncomfortable but also upset me because I was already feeling fragile. And, despite pointing out that it was inappropriate, I didn't receive anything even remotely resembling an apology.

EDIT: Hey, you're right, it does feel better to get these things off your chest (so to speak :rolleyes: ).

dee
20th-March-2006, 07:11 PM
Name him, name him!

No....Flog him, flog him!

In fact.... Burn him, burn him! :D

..or her..:rolleyes:

Are you sure that's not 'Frot' him?

Lots of :hug: 's for Tess, naughty man :mad:

Paul F
20th-March-2006, 11:11 PM
EDIT: Hey, you're right, it does feel better to get these things off your chest (so to speak :rolleyes: ).

Its quite tricky to comment on this as Im sure you can imagine.

However, never being one to shy away from awkwardness, if your feelings were made clear at the time an apology should have been forthcoming immediately and without hesitation.

Spin dryer
21st-March-2006, 01:02 AM
Its quite tricky to comment on this as Im sure you can imagine.

However, never being one to shy away from awkwardness, if your feelings were made clear at the time an apology should have been forthcoming immediately and without hesitation.

Absolutely Paul.

Tessalicious, it's gracious of you not to name the miscreant, but he will doubtless read this thread and, hopefully, squirm with embarrassment just as much as he would had you done so. In any event, I guess that the fear of being outed will discourage any recidivism.

Alice
21st-March-2006, 01:23 AM
Its quite tricky to comment on this as Im sure you can imagine.

However, never being one to shy away from awkwardness, if your feelings were made clear at the time an apology should have been forthcoming immediately and without hesitation.
:yeah:
If you made your feelings clear at the time and there was still no apology forthcoming, I say bar him:grin:

Missy D
21st-March-2006, 08:59 AM
:yeah:
If you made your feelings clear at the time and there was still no apology forthcoming, I say bar him:grin:


:yeah:

Eleanor
21st-March-2006, 07:48 PM
What a fantastic night! Easily the best Hammersmith that I have ever been to. Fantastic music both upstairs and downstairs. Thanks to Dave Bradley and crew for organising it.
:clap: :respect:

Yes agreed, the blues room was very sweaty but what a fantastic atmosphere, especially later on in the evening. Spin dryer definitely looked like he was having a good time!!!!!

And so many fantastic dancers at one venue. It felt like being at a weekender but without going away. I definitely didn't mind paying £12.00 for the blues room and dancing 'til 2AM.

Good to meet more of you. Lovely to dance with you Kev for the first time.

Howard told me that that may be the last Hammersmith with a blues room as apparently they are going to carpet the room for conferences.
:sad:
Let's hope Ceroc can find somewhere else for weekend freestyles that can provide a big main room and a blues room.

Howard
22nd-March-2006, 09:56 AM
Howard told me that that may be the last Hammersmith with a blues room as apparently they are going to carpet the room for conferences.
:sad:


Elanor, that is what I was told but I have since heard that this is no longer certain so let's keep our fingers crossed.

Zebra Woman
22nd-March-2006, 10:00 AM
Elanor, that is what I was told but I have since heard that this is no longer certain so let's keep our fingers crossed.

Oh really?

I've just crossed everything.

Missy D
22nd-March-2006, 10:15 AM
My friend lisa went to Hammersmith on saturday and had a brilliant time. She is not on the forum just yet as she has no pc. She said that a few men refused her a dance but this seems the norm at this venue. She even asked Howard and he said no (quite glad he did turn her down as I would be very jealous seeing as he looks so much like Telly Savalas):drool:

I do hope i can make one of these freestyle nights.

Eleanor
22nd-March-2006, 02:13 PM
Elanor, that is what I was told but I have since heard that this is no longer certain so let's keep our fingers crossed.

Yippee
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Howard
23rd-March-2006, 12:40 AM
. She said that a few men refused her a dance but this seems the norm at this venue. She even asked Howard and he said no (quite glad he did turn her down as I would be very jealous seeing as he looks so much like Telly Savalas):drool:


I have to say I was absolutely horrified to read the above. :angry:You see Chloe, If there’s one thing that l try never to do (if I can possibly avoid it that is), it’s to never turn down a dance. I simply believe in that unspoken courtesy of not saying ‘no’ and still consider it a privilege to be asked. I remember only too well the times when nobody would want to ask me on account of my having two left feet.

I think this is a fundamental problem with the forum that criticisms can be so casually levelled against individuals with little or no facts or context, althogh I can suggest no solution to this.

When I am at a Ceroc venue my time is not always my own, I might be going over a routine for a class, about to teach, about to perform or be involved in the organising of an event as I was at Hammersmith last Saturday.

The fact is the only time I can remember being asked for a dance at Hammersmith and having to say no was as I was rushing around trying to get the ‘Dance With A Stranger’ competition started. I also remember explaining this to the lady who asked saying that I would be pleased to dance later – perhaps she didn’t hear me properly, I don’t know.

Its just that it really upsets me to read comments like this that are so simply unfair and entirely out of context when I always make it my policy to try dance with who ever asks.:sad:

Minnie M
23rd-March-2006, 12:42 AM
I have to say I was absolutely horrified to read the above. :angry:You see Chloe, If there’s one thing that l try never to do (if I can possibly avoid it that is), it’s to never turn down a dance. I simply believe in that unspoken courtesy of not saying ‘no’ and still consider it a privilege to be asked. I remember only too well the times when nobody would want to ask me on account of my having two left feet.

I think this is a fundamental problem with the forum that criticisms can be so casually levelled against individuals with little or no facts or context, althogh I can suggest no solution to this.

When I am at a Ceroc venue my time is not always my own, I might be going over a routine for a class, about to teach, about to perform or be involved in the organising of an event as I was at Hammersmith last Saturday.

The fact is the only time I can remember being asked for a dance at Hammersmith and having to say no was as I was rushing around trying to get the ‘Dance With A Stranger’ competition started. I also remember explaining this to the lady who asked saying that I would be pleased to dance later – perhaps she didn’t hear me properly, I don’t know.

Its just that it really upsets me to read comments like this that are so simply unfair and entirely out of context when I always make it my policy to try dance with who ever asks.:sad:

:confused: :rolleyes: twice (David Lloyd & Storm):whistle: but I will never ask again :mad:

WittyBird
23rd-March-2006, 12:44 AM
I have to say I was absolutely horrified to read the above. :angry:


I got one with you :clap: No you didn't turn me down when I asked though :flower: I was being exceptionally brave :D

So thank you, you are one of many people that made my night :grin:

Andy McGregor
23rd-March-2006, 09:33 AM
:confused: :rolleyes: twice (David Lloyd & Storm):whistle: but I will never ask again :mad:You asked someone who had already turned you down? How forgiving ...

It is very difficult when someone asks you to dance and you're busy running a night. I occasionally have to say to women that I'll have to grab them later. The difference is that I usally do. Maybe Howard is going to ask MinnieM for a dance at the next weekender :whistle:

Missy D
23rd-March-2006, 09:41 AM
Gee Howard keep your hair on (ok bad expresssion):blush: Well i wont be asking you to dance as you are obvioulsly too far up your own back side to read what i wrote. My feathers are well and truly ruffled now!

C:devil:

Ps you have turned down many ladies before:whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-March-2006, 09:45 AM
Gee Howard keep your hair on (ok bad expresssion):blush: Well i wont be asking you to dance as you are obvioulsly too far up your own back side to read what i wrote.What makes you say that he didn't read what you wrote?

Missy D
23rd-March-2006, 09:47 AM
You asked someone who had already turned you down? How forgiving ...

It is very difficult when someone asks you to dance and you're busy running a night. I occasionally have to say to women that I'll have to grab them later. The difference is that I usally do. Maybe Howard is going to ask MinnieM for a dance at the next weekender :whistle:


Well i hope MinnieM says no!

And unless he involved with the toilet cleaning staff i cannot see that he was too tied up. The Hammersmith event went on til 2am! competition i think ended around 11.30.

Missy D
23rd-March-2006, 10:12 AM
Ah Chloe dont get upset i am sure Howard didnt mean to upset you. I have been dancing for over 5 years and often get refused. The only thing that does really annoy me is when i ask someone to dance, they say no and then they ask someone else to dance. I am sure Howard woudnt have done that to your friend. Let me know when you are next in London and if Howard is at the same venue i will introduce you both.:flower:

Tazmanian Devil
23rd-March-2006, 12:04 PM
I remember only too well the times when nobody would want to ask me on account of my having two left feet.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Thank you for my dance Howard,:clap: Sorry I got you as you were putting your coat on though :blush:

Cruella
23rd-March-2006, 01:47 PM
I've asked Howard to dance 3 times and he's said yes every time, so no complaints from me. Although the last time he did spend the whole dance experimenting on me.:whistle: (New dance moves of course!!)

SilverFox
23rd-March-2006, 02:22 PM
I'd never refuse a dance......:devil:

under par
23rd-March-2006, 02:29 PM
I'd never refuse a dance......:devil:


Well except on days that end in "Y" ! Eh Foxy!

Angel
23rd-March-2006, 02:30 PM
I'd never refuse a dance......:devil:

I hope not :yum:

Msfab
23rd-March-2006, 02:45 PM
I'd never refuse a dance......:devil:

We dance in London! :rolleyes:

SilverFox
23rd-March-2006, 02:53 PM
We dance in London! :rolleyes:Have you got the right tense there?...

Cruella
23rd-March-2006, 05:01 PM
I'd never refuse a dance......:devil:
Hey Vince, can i borrow that 'choking on toast smiley' you had?
Waits patiently for the influx of posts from scorned women.