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stewart38
3rd-March-2006, 10:40 AM
Interesting hearing what people would do re throwing a sick day

So would you

a) Put your feet up on the seats of train when its uncrowded

b) Throw a apple out of a moving car

c) Not tell someone you bump their car if they were not there and you thought no one else was around

d) Tesco has given you £5 to much in change following a purchase there would you return it ?

e) Your little old lady from the charity shop has done as per Tesco would you return it ?

f) You find £5 would you hand it into the police ?

g) you find £500 would you hand it in to the police ?

h) Your friend is having an affair with your best friends wife would you tell them ?


Im a No, No,depends,no,yes,no,depends,depends

who on this forum is whiter then white ??

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-March-2006, 10:45 AM
Yes, yes, no (if damaged), yes, yes, no, yes, no

ducasi
3rd-March-2006, 11:02 AM
> Interesting hearing what people would do re throwing a sick day

No.

> Put your feet up on the seats of train when its uncrowded

Sometimes – but only if I knew my shoes were "clean".

> Throw a apple out of a moving car

As it's 100% biodegradable, yes, where I knew I wouldn't hit anyone.

> Not tell someone you bump their car if they were not there and you thought no one else was around

Only if there was no damage done.

> Tesco has given you £5 to much in change following a purchase there would you return it ?

If I noticed it immediately, yes.

> Your little old lady from the charity shop has done as per Tesco would you return it ?

Yes.

> You find £5 would you hand it into the police ?

No.

> you find £500 would you hand it in to the police ?

Yes.

> Your friend is having an affair with your best friends wife would you tell them ?

Don't know – it depends on the circumstances.

Little Monkey
3rd-March-2006, 11:12 AM
:yeah:
All the same answers as Mr. Ducasi.

stewart38
3rd-March-2006, 11:27 AM
:yeah:
All the same answers as Mr. Ducasi.


Would you throw any rubbish out of a moving car ??

I don’t know if an apple is bio degradable in a little chicks mouth :sad:

I wouldn’t put my feet up on empty seats as people will have to sit on them afterwards :sad:

Thats probably manners rather then morals ??

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-March-2006, 11:30 AM
Would you throw any rubbish out of a moving car ??

I don’t know if an apple is bio degradable in a little chicks mouth :sad:

I wouldn’t put my feet up on empty seats as people will have to sit on them afterwards :sad:

Thats probably manners rather then morals ??I'd throw an apple out of a car, but not a crisp packet, for example.

ducasi
3rd-March-2006, 12:11 PM
Would you throw any rubbish out of a moving car ?? Nope, and I hate people who throw lit cigarette buts out of their cars.

I don’t know if an apple is bio degradable in a little chicks mouth :sad: Huh?

I wouldn’t put my feet up on empty seats as people will have to sit on them afterwards :sad: I see people sitting out on the steps outside the building. Shall I avoid walking on these steps?

I don't put my feet up on chairs especially often. I try to make sure my shoes are basically clean, but I don't expect people to be eating off the chairs anyway...

Thats probably manners rather then morals ?? What can I say? I was dragged up... :o

stewart38
3rd-March-2006, 12:16 PM
Nope, and I hate people who throw lit cigarette buts out of their cars.
Huh?
I see people sitting out on the steps outside the building. Shall I avoid walking on these steps?

I don't put my feet up on chairs especially often. I try to make sure my shoes are basically clean, but I don't expect people to be eating off the chairs anyway...
What can I say? I was dragged up... :o

Where is WB ? re one ?? and cigarette buts :sad:

would you throw a Mars bar out of window ?

Whats the connection with steps on building to do with where people sit. Im not JUDGING its just bad manners thats all :wink:

Ive told many people to move there F*** feet off the chair so i can sit down

I have that friday feeling

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-March-2006, 12:27 PM
Ive told many people to move there F*** feet off the chair so i can sit downNow that's the kind of manners we should have more of.
I have that friday feelingDoes it happen often?

Tessalicious
3rd-March-2006, 12:51 PM
Ah, a Forum version of Scruples, the best game in the world for assisting life-long friends to fall out with each other - just what we needed.

stewart38
3rd-March-2006, 12:53 PM
Ah, a Forum version of Scruples, the best game in the world for assisting life-long friends to fall out with each other - just what we needed.

If you moved your feet i could sit down thankyou :wink:

Petal
3rd-March-2006, 02:12 PM
Interesting hearing what people would do re throwing a sick day

So would you

a) Put your feet up on the seats of train when its uncrowded

b) Throw a apple out of a moving car

c) Not tell someone you bump their car if they were not there and you thought no one else was around

d) Tesco has given you £5 to much in change following a purchase there would you return it ?

e) Your little old lady from the charity shop has done as per Tesco would you return it ?

f) You find £5 would you hand it into the police ?

g) you find £500 would you hand it in to the police ?

h) Your friend is having an affair with your best friends wife would you tell them ?


Im a No, No,depends,no,yes,no,depends,depends

who on this forum is whiter then white ??

yes, yes, no, yes, yes, yes, yes, i'd confront the friend having the affair.

Definately not whiter than white but i'm such a worrier if i did (what i see as) the wrong thing i'd be ill with worry.

Barry Shnikov
3rd-March-2006, 02:22 PM
Yes, yes, no (if damaged), yes, yes, no, yes, no

If the car wasn't damaged, what would be the point of telling?:nice:

Barry Shnikov
3rd-March-2006, 02:27 PM
Yes
Yes, but not in traffic or built up areas
No (unless under time pressure)
I probably wouldn't notice
As above
No
P.r.o.b.a.b.l.y
Rocky marriage - yes. Otherwise, short affair - probably not; long affair, yes.

Can I point out that phrasing like 'Not tell someone...' makes life difficult for replies?:rolleyes:

Barry Shnikov
3rd-March-2006, 02:30 PM
Ive told many people to move there F*** feet off the chair so i can sit down

Didn't you specify uncrowded train to start off with?

Little Monkey
3rd-March-2006, 03:01 PM
Would you throw any rubbish out of a moving car ??

I'm pretty sure the original question was "Throw a apple out of a moving car" (may I point out that it's an apple?;-) ), to which Ducasi replied "As it's 100% biodegradable, yes, where I knew I wouldn't hit anyone", which I agreed with. So why are you all of a sudden asking me if I'd throw any rubbish out of a car? The answer is NO!! Now stop being so bl**dy difficult and grouchy!


I don’t know if an apple is bio degradable in a little chicks mouth :sad:

As Ducasi said: Huh?
I believe ickle birdies actually eat, and enjoy, fruit.

And for the putting feet up on seats, I'd normally kick my shoes off first (if I don't have smelly feet, that is!:what: ), or I'd rest my feet in the gap between the seat and the wall, where nobody can sit anyway.


would you throw a Mars bar out of window ?

:confused:

Would one not rather eat the mars bar, than throw it out of the window?? I wouldn't throw a honey dew melon out of the window, either. Or a punnet of strawberries. Or a smoked haddock. Or a chocolate cake (that would be criminal!!). Or an ice cream (:drool: ). Or a portion of lasagne with a crisp side salad and garlic bread. Aaaargh, hungry now!

I assumed that in your original question you really meant an apple core. :rolleyes: Because I wouldn't throw an apple out of the window either. Waste of good food!

Now lighten up and smile! :grin:

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
3rd-March-2006, 03:08 PM
Interesting hearing what people would do re throwing a sick day

So would you

a) Put your feet up on the seats of train when its uncrowded

I do this anyway, but I take my shoes off first...it's usually when i'm going to Ceroc actually.

stewart38
3rd-March-2006, 03:13 PM
I'm pretty sure the original question was "Throw a apple out of a moving car" (may I point out that it's an apple?;-) ), to which Ducasi replied "As it's 100% biodegradable, yes, where I knew I wouldn't hit anyone", which I agreed with. So why are you all of a sudden asking me if I'd throw any rubbish out of a car? The answer is NO!! Now stop being so bl**dy difficult and grouchy!

Now lighten up and smile! :grin:


I meant a plastic apple :grin:

Piglet
3rd-March-2006, 04:04 PM
All my answers were the same as Ducasi's apart from:

Interesting hearing what people would do re throwing a sick day

No. Cos my classroom is in such a mess most of the time - a supply teacher wouldn't know where to start

> Not tell someone you bump their car if they were not there and you thought no one else was around

Afraid I did this once, but the guilt was hell to live with and I wouldn't do it again. It's much better to 'fess up, as I did the second time I managed to do something stupid with my car when trying to park it - and there wasn't even any damage on the huge 4x4 I did it to but I still left a note. My car now has one go-fast stripe :D It's unique!

> Tesco has given you £5 to much in change following a purchase there would you return it ?

Would depend what mood I was in and how the cashier treated me, but considering I usually pay with a card - can't see this happening

> Your friend is having an affair with your best friends wife would you tell them ?

Nope I would keep my nose right out of this one and tell the one's committing the offence that I had no interest in knowing anything if they wanted to get anything off their chest! Too dodgy a business to get involved in.

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-March-2006, 08:37 PM
If the car wasn't damaged, what would be the point of telling?:nice:I mean, no I wouldn't not tell them if the car was damaged. In other words, if the car was damaged, I would tell them.

Man, I really don't not dislike double negatives.

robd
3rd-March-2006, 08:53 PM
a) Put your feet up on the seats of train when its uncrowded
Yes

b) Throw a apple out of a moving car
Yes

c) Not tell someone you bump their car if they were not there and you thought no one else was around
Depends how badly bumped

d) Tesco has given you £5 to much in change following a purchase there would you return it ?
No

e) Your little old lady from the charity shop has done as per Tesco would you return it ?
Yes

f) You find £5 would you hand it into the police ?
No

g) you find £500 would you hand it in to the police ?
No, what about 50 million pounds?

h) Your friend is having an affair with your best friends wife would you tell them ?
No - the messenger is always shot

Ghost
4th-March-2006, 05:29 PM
a) Put your feet up on the seats of train when its uncrowded
No

b) Throw a apple out of a moving car
No

c) Not tell someone you bump their car if they were not there and you thought no one else was around
I'd wait for them to return / knock on nearby houses, or leave a note and contact details if I was in a hurry. I have spare paper and pen in my car (and insurance) for this.

d) Tesco has given you £5 to much in change following a purchase there would you return it ?
Done this. Once took me 15 mins to return £5 to Argos - they were totally lost as to what procedure to use. I've gone back to various shops when I realsied they gave me too much change.

e) Your little old lady from the charity shop has done as per Tesco would you return it ?
Yes. If I realised later on I'd donate the £5 to the charity.

f) You find £5 would you hand it into the police ?
Nope - what are they gonna do wih it???? I have chased after people who've dropped money and given it back to them - £20 was probably the most. Otherwise I give the money to charity

g) you find £500 would you hand it in to the police ?
Yes. Or responsible person eg if I find a dropped wallet in Tescos I'd take it to Customer Services

h) Your friend is having an affair with your best friends wife would you tell them ?
Yes. I've done this on a thankfully slightly smaller scale (it still involved one friend betraying another).


who on this forum is whiter then white ??
Nah, just a beginner

"Morals are what you do when no-one will ever know"
Take care,
Chriistopher

El Salsero Gringo
4th-March-2006, 05:57 PM
Would it make any difference if you 'found', say, £50million? If I saw £5 in the street I'd probably leave it for someone who felt they needed £5 more than I do. £500 and I'd take to the police. But I have to say, £50million would test my resolve a bit harder.

Andy McGregor
4th-March-2006, 06:48 PM
Would it make any difference if you 'found', say, £50million? If I saw £5 in the street I'd probably leave it for someone who felt they needed £5 more than I do. £500 and I'd take to the police. But I have to say, £50million would test my resolve a bit harder.Reminds me of the joke where the punch-line is "we know what you are, we're just haggling over the price". In this case it's the price of our morals. Speaking personally, and honestly, mine are much cheaper than £50million:what:

Ghost
4th-March-2006, 07:20 PM
Would it make any difference if you 'found', say, £50million?
No.

“The final score can’t be rigged, I don’t care how many players you grease, that last shot always comes up question mark. But here’s the thing. You never know when you take it. It could be when you’re duking it out with the Legion Of Death, or just crossing the street deciding when to have lunch. So you just treat it all like it was up to you, the world in the balance, cos you never know when it is” – Gunn, Angel

Take care,
Christopher

Ghost
4th-March-2006, 07:21 PM
Reminds me of the joke where the punch-line is "we know what you are, we're just haggling over the price". In this case it's the price of our morals. Speaking personally, and honestly, mine are much cheaper than £50million:what:
“Some things are more important than money. Strength of character, strength of pride, and if you’re lucky enough to own these things, don’t ever sell them. “
~ Joey, Dawson’s Creek

Be Well,
Christopher

Piglet
4th-March-2006, 08:03 PM
Would it make any difference if you 'found', say, £50million? If I saw £5 in the street I'd probably leave it for someone who felt they needed £5 more than I do. £500 and I'd take to the police. But I have to say, £50million would test my resolve a bit harder.
If I found an amount that I wouldn't miss if I lost it then I'd keep it - probably up to £20 or so, if I thought I would be distraught at the thought of losing it, then I'd hand it in to the police and make sure they take my details and chase it up in, what is it 6 months? and claim it myself as finder if the original loser hadn't claimed it.

Ghost
4th-March-2006, 08:37 PM
if the original loser hadn't claimed it.
:rofl:

Take care,
Christopher

El Salsero Gringo
5th-March-2006, 03:25 AM
“Some things are more important than money. Strength of character, strength of pride, and if you’re lucky enough to own these things, don’t ever sell them. “
~ Joey, Dawson’s Creek

Be Well,
ChristopherEveryone has a price, Christopher. It may be that yours depends not on greed but on having four starving children to feed and no money to do so - but everyone has one. Self knowledge means understanding what that price is.

Barry Shnikov
5th-March-2006, 10:39 AM
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get to keep £50 million, even if nobody claimed it.

Suppose it was yours in the first place but you could not give a lawful explanation of how you acquired it; you purported to find it, turned it in to the police knowing no-one else could claim it. After 6 months, you get it back without having to account for it to money laundering authorities, tax authorities, etc?

I expect it would be bona vacantia, the legal term for money (and assets) to which no-one has any lawful title, and which is therefore claimed by the Crown - in modern times, the Treasury gets it. I'm pretty sure the Treasury would try to argue that.

The closest analogy I can think of, though, is the treasure trove principles. Supposing you were to find, in a field, a jewelled gold medieval crown that the British Museum values at £2 million. If it is established that the crown was originally lost, dropped, etc, then you can keep it; if on the other hand it appears that it was originaly hidden or buried or whatever, for any reason at all, the Crown gets to keep it. Traditionally it is then given to the British museum.

So maybe if you can establish the £50 million was lost, maybe you could keep it...

El Salsero Gringo
5th-March-2006, 11:49 AM
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get to keep £50 million, even if nobody claimed it.

Suppose it was yours in the first place but you could not give a lawful explanation of how you acquired it; you purported to find it, turned it in to the police knowing no-one else could claim it. After 6 months, you get it back without having to account for it to money laundering authorities, tax authorities, etc?

I expect it would be bona vacantia, the legal term for money (and assets) to which no-one has any lawful title, and which is therefore claimed by the Crown - in modern times, the Treasury gets it. I'm pretty sure the Treasury would try to argue that.

The closest analogy I can think of, though, is the treasure trove principles. Supposing you were to find, in a field, a jewelled gold medieval crown that the British Museum values at £2 million. If it is established that the crown was originally lost, dropped, etc, then you can keep it; if on the other hand it appears that it was originaly hidden or buried or whatever, for any reason at all, the Crown gets to keep it. Traditionally it is then given to the British museum.

So maybe if you can establish the £50 million was lost, maybe you could keep it...No, I agree, the mechanics of the matter aren't very obvious. Suppose, though, that you opened your bank statement one morning and found £50m extra had been credited to your current account. Would you ring the bank straight away? Would you wait for the bank to call you? Or would you contact a bank in the Maldives and have the money wired there straight away?

I have a hazy memory of a difference between money paid "in error of law" and money "paid in error of fact" - and that one was returnable and one wasn't? Is this based on anything or is it a figment of my imagination?

And on the subject of treasure trove - I believe that if the object is decided to have been hidden, then the finder is paid a substantial reward commensurate with the value of the item even though it is claimed by the state. If for no other reason than to encourage people to declare objects they've found and not to fence them to some foreign collector or museum unlawfully.

Piglet
5th-March-2006, 01:01 PM
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get to keep £50 million, even if nobody claimed it.
Are you not even MORALLY entitled to 10%?

Ghost
5th-March-2006, 04:46 PM
Everyone has a price, Christopher. It may be that yours depends not on greed but on having four starving children to feed and no money to do so - but everyone has one.
Plenty of starving people with character and pride :worthy: I am always profoundly amazed at the humanity people maintained within the Death Camps :worthy:

Self knowledge means understanding what that price is.
True enough. But the price isn't always measured in £s.

Be Well,
Christopher

Ghost
5th-March-2006, 04:56 PM
Are you not even MORALLY entitled to 10%?
Morally - no. Traditionally, yes. If it was mine and you handed it in then I'd give you 10% :flower:

Take care,
Christopher

Barry Shnikov
5th-March-2006, 08:39 PM
No, I agree, the mechanics of the matter aren't very obvious. Suppose, though, that you opened your bank statement one morning and found £50m extra had been credited to your current account. Would you ring the bank straight away? Would you wait for the bank to call you? Or would you contact a bank in the Maldives and have the money wired there straight away?

You had better contact the bank. Only a couple of years ago a WPC was jailed for spending money that had been paid into her bank account by mistake.

Theft is:
1 dishonestly
2 appropriating
3 money (or other things)
4 belonging to another
5 with the intention to permanently deprive.

She spent (2) the money (3) which (4) didn't belong to her and (5) had no way (and therefore, intention) of paying it back and (1) she was fully aware that the money was in her account by accident.

Such transactions leave a horrible paper trail whereas at least finding a briefcase is turtley anonymous!

Barry Shnikov
5th-March-2006, 08:40 PM
And on the subject of treasure trove - I believe that if the object is decided to have been hidden, then the finder is paid a substantial reward commensurate with the value of the item even though it is claimed by the state. If for no other reason than to encourage people to declare objects they've found and not to fence them to some foreign collector or museum unlawfully.

People have been paid rewards, but IIRC not very handsome ones. The guy who turned up Sutton Hoo got peanuts. Mind you, the find was beyond value...

Barry Shnikov
5th-March-2006, 08:42 PM
Are you not even MORALLY entitled to 10%?

Why? Isn't it your moral duty to return to the owner anything you find? If so, why should you be rewarded (hence "virtue is its own reward"); if not, then why not keep the lot?:grin:

Dreadful Scathe
5th-March-2006, 10:03 PM
would you...


a) Put your feet up on the seats of train when its uncrowded

Yes, with clean shoes. My shoes are usually cleaner then some peoples trousers ive seen :eek:


b) Throw a apple out of a moving car

Yes, as ducasi the no-longer-c2d-blackpool-virgin said, they are biodegradable - you wouldnt complain about an apple tree discarding the apple so why a human. Well, ok MOST of us wouldnt complain :)



c) Not tell someone you bump their car if they were not there and you thought no one else was around

If there is no damage, there is no point.


d) Tesco has given you £5 to much in change following a purchase there would you return it ?

I always have in the past, not at Tescos but at other shops. If they charge me the 'wrong' price I dont, I always assume they should know how much something they sell actually costs.


e) Your little old lady from the charity shop has done as per Tesco would you return it ?

Yes, but Id steal her handbag on the way out - that way you're not robbing the charity :)



f) You find £5 would you hand it into the police ?

Certainly not - theyd think you were mental.


g) you find £500 would you hand it in to the police ?

This depends where it was and if i thought there was the slightest chance it would be traceable back to an individual. The moral dilemma would usually be - buy smurf memorabilia or give it to charity :).



h) Your friend is having an affair with your best friends wife would you tell them ?

I think saying "look you idiots- if its obvious to me its obvious to everyone else - sort yourselves out" would be a start. I doubt such a direct truth would do YOUR relationship with your friends any good. Gossip,even true gossip, is never as innocent as you think it might or should be !

El Salsero Gringo
5th-March-2006, 10:37 PM
You had better contact the bank. Only a couple of years ago a WPC was jailed for spending money that had been paid into her bank account by mistake.

Theft is:
1 dishonestly
2 appropriating
3 money (or other things)
4 belonging to another
5 with the intention to permanently deprive.

She spent (2) the money (3) which (4) didn't belong to her and (5) had no way (and therefore, intention) of paying it back and (1) she was fully aware that the money was in her account by accident.

Such transactions leave a horrible paper trail whereas at least finding a briefcase is turtley anonymous!Supposing you ring the bank, and they tell you, yes, it is unusual, but there was a definite instruction to pay the money to you, you were named personally on the transfer document, and by the way (and rather oleaginously) would you like to switch the money to a treasury deposit where you'll get a sensible interest rate while you decide how to invest it (sir)?

To what lengths are you obliged to go to in law before you can decide that you have simply been the beneficiary of a rather generous if anonymous benefactor?

How would you ever know that it wasn't a 'mistake' and that you might be prosecuted for theft if you spent it?

Would it make any difference (morally or in law) if the money was paid to you because:

- of a mistake in the account number it was credited to - it should never have been yours
- to you (correctly) but just the wrong amount
- intended for you and credited correctly - but in mistaken settlement of a debt you were never owed in the first place

And what if you were expecting a payment of £50m, and this just happened to be the 'wrong' payment, having been made by mistake. (OK, I'm definitely reaching here...) Would that still be theft?

I would say that in many circumstances, if someone credits you with £50m, then it can no longer be said to belong to another, so your 'theft' argument falls.

Barry Shnikov
5th-March-2006, 11:02 PM
Supposing you ring the bank, and they tell you, yes, it is unusual, but there was a definite instruction to pay the money to you, you were named personally on the transfer document, and by the way (and rather oleaginously) would you like to switch the money to a treasury deposit where you'll get a sensible interest rate while you decide how to invest it (sir)?

To what lengths are you obliged to go to in law before you can decide that you have simply been the beneficiary of a rather generous if anonymous benefactor?

How would you ever know that it wasn't a 'mistake' and that you might be prosecuted for theft if you spent it?
The point is, you know the money is not yours. If it isn't yours, you have no right to spend it. Doing so is dishonest. So it makes out all the five elements of theft. The only criterion would be who is going to complain. If I remember correctly there is even a decided case on this - with a conviction. I dare say the fact that you had taken steps to ascertain what the position was might be mitigation and moderate your sentence.

Would it make any difference (morally or in law) if the money was paid to you because:
- of a mistake in the account number it was credited to - it should never have been yours
can't make a difference - where the mistake lies is not relevant

- to you (correctly) but just the wrong amount
ditto

- intended for you and credited correctly - but in mistaken settlement of a debt you were never owed in the first place
the question here would be the honesty - if you thought you were owed the debt, then you thought you owned the money, so spending it would (probably) not be dishonest

And what if you were expecting a payment of £50m, and this just happened to be the 'wrong' payment, having been made by mistake. (OK, I'm definitely reaching here...) Would that still be theft?
same as before - you would probably be able to convince a jury that there was no dishonesty, even if the other four would be made out

I would say that in many circumstances, if someone credits you with £50m, then it can no longer be said to belong to another, so your 'theft' argument falls.
Actually, this is where it can get very complicated. Technically, in law a bank account (not in overdraft) constitutes a debt from the bank payable to the customer (a 'chose in action'); a mistaken credit to you simply increases the size of the debt the bank thinks is payable to you. You always know (or are presumed to know) what the proper amount of that debt is. Causing the bank to pay out a larger amount than it owes you (buying a luxury yacht with a cheque or requesting payment of £1 million over the counter) is immediately an appropriation of money belonging to another, i.e the bank. In short, even if your account shows a £50 million positive balance, there is no change in the amount you are lawfully entitled to.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-March-2006, 12:06 AM
Actually, this is where it can get very complicated. Technically, in law a bank account (not in overdraft) constitutes a debt from the bank payable to the customer (a 'chose in action'); a mistaken credit to you simply increases the size of the debt the bank thinks is payable to you. You always know (or are presumed to know) what the proper amount of that debt is. Causing the bank to pay out a larger amount than it owes you (buying a luxury yacht with a cheque or requesting payment of £1 million over the counter) is immediately an appropriation of money belonging to another, i.e the bank. In short, even if your account shows a £50 million positive balance, there is no change in the amount you are lawfully entitled to.Does that mean that there's a difference in law between paying money into my bank account (where you're saying that the money isn't treated as 'mine' until I draw on the balance, if I understand you) as opposed to giving me an envelope of cash? I find it hard to see how if someone insists on giving me an pile of £50 notes (as long as it was their money) how it would be unlawful for me to spend it. Even if I think they're mistaken in doing so.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-March-2006, 12:09 AM
Actually, this is where it can get very complicated. Technically, in law a bank account (not in overdraft) constitutes a debt from the bank payable to the customer (a 'chose in action'); a mistaken credit to you simply increases the size of the debt the bank thinks is payable to you. You always know (or are presumed to know) what the proper amount of that debt is. Causing the bank to pay out a larger amount than it owes you (buying a luxury yacht with a cheque or requesting payment of £1 million over the counter) is immediately an appropriation of money belonging to another, i.e the bank. In short, even if your account shows a £50 million positive balance, there is no change in the amount you are lawfully entitled to.Yes I can follow the logic of that where it's the bank's mistake (they've credit my account because of a transposed digit in the account number, say) but if they debit the 'debt' they owe to someone else and credit my account exactly as instructed by the 'donor', then the bank's perception of the debt is neither here nor there? If I draw on the mistaken balance, are you saying I'm stealing from the bank, or from the payee?

Barry Shnikov
6th-March-2006, 02:31 PM
Does that mean that there's a difference in law between paying money into my bank account (where you're saying that the money isn't treated as 'mine' until I draw on the balance, if I understand you) as opposed to giving me an envelope of cash? I find it hard to see how if someone insists on giving me an pile of £50 notes (as long as it was their money) how it would be unlawful for me to spend it. Even if I think they're mistaken in doing so.

In a modern bank account, there isn't really any 'money' until there is a transaction. (O metaphysics!) This is why there is an extra section of the Theft Act 'obtaining a money transfer by deception', which had to be inserted after a charge of 'obtaining money by deception' was blown out of the water, when counsel showed the court that all that had happened was a change in the amount nominally owed by the bank to the customer, and so no 'money' had been 'obtained'. (This was in a case where loads of bent solicitors had assisted clients in making fraudulent mortgage claims on properties that didn't exist, or on which several mortgages had been obtained.)

(However, the arcane legal analysis of banking relationships only really became relevant (wow! brainstorm! couldn't remember how you spell rellervunt) because you mentioned 'crediting to your account', or something similar.)

If someone gives you money, you have no problem. If they give it to you by mistake, you might. This is why the Statute emphasises 'dishonestly'. There was a case where two 'servants' or 'carers' had persuaded (the traditional) little old lady to transfer lots of money into their bank accounts, buy things for them, enable them to get cash out of her account, etc. It is clear that on at least some, if not all, of the transactions, the LOL was acting of her own free will. It was also clear that they had used deception and subterfuge to obtain the money. They were convicted (by the House of Lords) on the grounds that they had 2) appropriated (by getting their mitts on it) 3) money 4) belonging to another and 5) with the intention permanently to deprive; and that they had done it all 1) dishonestly because they could not have persuaded her to do what they wanted without deceit.

I feel that the emphasis on dishonesty is elegant and clever. If you can persuade a jury that you weren't dishonest, you will not be convicted. If you can't, you are in real difficulty. Most people would agree you can't just spend money that appears in your account one day, because (whether it has real existence or not!) it isn't yours.

Suppose the bank assures you there has been no mistake. It says 'There's a certificated transfer of £50 million from a numbered account at Banco Mucho Cleanerio in the British Virgin Islands.' You know you have absolutely no relationship with anybody who has that kind of money, nor anyone who has offshore bank accounts. Notwithstanding the bank's assurances, you know there's a problem somewhere.

If the bank says 'There's a transfer of £56, 842.17 from HSBC at 22, High Street, Bolsover', and you have an elderly aunt in Bolsover and last you heard she was fading fast, you might think 'O, auntie left me some money'. You might get away with it in front of a jury (though clearly probate transfers are normally accompanied by a request for a receipt) if it later turns out that HSBC made a mistake and the money should have gone to your older brother.

Barry Shnikov
6th-March-2006, 02:39 PM
Yes I can follow the logic of that where it's the bank's mistake (they've credit my account because of a transposed digit in the account number, say) but if they debit the 'debt' they owe to someone else and credit my account exactly as instructed by the 'donor', then the bank's perception of the debt is neither here nor there? If I draw on the mistaken balance, are you saying I'm stealing from the bank, or from the payee?

:what:
First, I would never accuse you of stealing, sir; harrumph! Gentlemen, and what not!:sick:

The bank's perception of the debt is very much to the purpose. That debt, as shown by the balance figure you would obtain on request, is how much money you are able to demand the bank to pay you. Other things on one side for a moment, you would have a right to go in, close your account and take away the cash. Or a cashier's cheque, or whatever. The other party is likely to be another bank, and the indebtedness, after calculating all set-offs, at the the end of that business day will be wrong by the amount by which the bank's 'debt' to you has been increased.

It is the bank from whom you would have stolen, rather than the payer/originator. (You, of course, are the payee...doh!)

El Salsero Gringo
6th-March-2006, 02:51 PM
It is the bank from whom you would have stolen, rather than the payer/originator. (You, of course, are the payee...doh!)(Doh)So if a mistaken tranfer occurs (the mistake is not that of the bank but of the originator) and I draw and spend the cash pronto - can the originator go back to the bank, explain the mistake, explain that I've actually stolen the funds from the bank and not from him - and could he please have his readies back? Will be bank be obliged to reimburse him and pursue me by itself?

LMC
6th-March-2006, 06:27 PM
Haven't read any of that, because I'd be brain dead today if I had a brain.

But can I suggest you guys come to a weekender sometime? :D

To (mis)quote from the 5th Element: (insert noun of choice here) not important, only dance important...

El Salsero Gringo
6th-March-2006, 06:29 PM
Haven't read any of that, because I'd be brain dead today if I had a brain.

But can I suggest you guys come to a weekender sometime? :D

To (mis)quote from the 5th Element: (insert noun of choice here) not important, only dance important...That is, I think, the most pathetic thread hijack I have ever read.

Get some sleep!

bigdjiver
6th-March-2006, 07:02 PM
£50 million in my bank account? :devil: So, amazingly, that phone call saying I had won the lottery must have been genuine. M'lord

David Bailey
6th-March-2006, 07:02 PM
Haven't read any of that, because I'd be brain dead today if I had a brain.

But can I suggest you guys come to a weekender sometime? :D
Can I suggest you stick to Tango Thread Diversions? :innocent:


To (mis)quote from the 5th Element: (insert noun of choice here) not important, only dance important...
I can think of at least two nouns of my choice which would refute that claim... :whistle:

So, back on topic:


(Doh)So if a mistaken tranfer occurs (the mistake is not that of the bank but of the originator) and I draw and spend the cash pronto - can the originator go back to the bank, explain the mistake, explain that I've actually stolen the funds from the bank and not from him - and could he please have his readies back? Will be bank be obliged to reimburse him and pursue me by itself?
Depending on the size of the debt, most banks would refund the originator, and most would go after you for their money - but I don't think they have to, they could just shrug their shoulders and say "Not my problem, guv".

Barry Shnikov
6th-March-2006, 07:07 PM
(Doh)So if a mistaken tranfer occurs (the mistake is not that of the bank but of the originator) and I draw and spend the cash pronto - can the originator go back to the bank, explain the mistake, explain that I've actually stolen the funds from the bank and not from him - and could he please have his readies back? Will be bank be obliged to reimburse him and pursue me by itself?

Yes, as per your stipulation.

If the originator bears some responsibility, then the answer is not so clear cut.

Barry Shnikov
6th-March-2006, 07:09 PM
Haven't read any of that, because I'd be brain dead today if I had a brain.

But can I suggest you guys come to a weekender sometime? :D

To (mis)quote from the 5th Element: (insert noun of choice here) not important, only dance important...

Been to loads of weekenders. ESG though - is in sore need of some.

Barry Shnikov
6th-March-2006, 07:09 PM
£50 million in my bank account? :devil: So, amazingly, that phone call saying I had won the lottery must have been genuine. M'lord

"Where are you phone records, please..."

bigdjiver
6th-March-2006, 07:17 PM
"Where are you phone records, please..."
There is, unfortunately, a followable trail - Haven't you won a lottery you haven't entered lately?

El Salsero Gringo
7th-March-2006, 12:18 AM
Been to loads of weekenders. ESG though - is in sore need of some.I'm getting plenty, thanks. (Sore? :rofl:)

El Salsero Gringo
7th-March-2006, 12:56 AM
Depending on the size of the debt, most banks would refund the originator, and most would go after you for their money - but I don't think they have to, they could just shrug their shoulders and say "Not my problem, guv".I haven't the slightest doubt they'd tell you (politely) where to get off. Once you sign the transfer form, with all its caveats and small print, I can imagine the look on the clerk's face when you ask him to contact the receiving bank to get the money back because you "made a mistake". And the look on the desk sergeant's face when you try to report the 'theft'.

stewart38
7th-March-2006, 11:56 AM
There was a young child that got into the national papers a few weeks back for handing in was it 50p he found in a supermarket with his mum ??

Barry Shnikov
7th-March-2006, 02:04 PM
There was a young child that got into the national papers a few weeks back for handing in was it 50p he found in a supermarket with his mum ??

The positive reinforcement he's going to get from receiving national attention for handing in the 50p is worth a million times more than the face value of the money.

Barry Shnikov
7th-March-2006, 02:30 PM
I haven't the slightest doubt they'd tell you (politely) where to get off. Once you sign the transfer form, with all its caveats and small print, I can imagine the look on the clerk's face when you ask him to contact the receiving bank to get the money back because you "made a mistake". And the look on the desk sergeant's face when you try to report the 'theft'.

Suppose the originator (O) made the mistake. O instructs ER Bank to transfer the money to you (when he meant to transfer to A N Other). That reduces ER Bank's indebtedness to O. ER Bank then adds that sum of money to the amount that it agrees between it and EE Bank that is to be used to calculate the net position between those two banks at the close of business. EE Bank then credits your account with the money, in other words it acknowledges a debt to you greater than the debt it 'should' acknowledge.

O has no cause of action against ER Bank. It did what he asked it to. He has no cause of action against EE Bank, it also carried out instructions correctly. If he has no cause of action against you, he loses his money. He has no action in conversion since money is specifically excepted from conversion. His cause of action is money had and received, or the newly developing law of restitution. The concept, which previously courts had rejected, is that if A is unjustly enriched at B's expense, in certain circumstances B has a cause of action against A to 'disgorge' his profits. There are differences as to whether this would or should be a proprietary or personal claim - in theory, O's money has become 'mixed' with the bank's money, so it may be necessary to 'trace' it into your hands.

If ER Bank makes the mistake - i.e. sends the money to you rather than the person O specified - he has a cause of action against them for breach of contract, and that may be his simplest remedy. If large sums of money are at stake, ER Bank is not going to leave it there, and will itself pursue you 'standing in the shoes' of O.

If EE Bank has made the mistake, paying you instead of the person specified by ER Bank, then arguably it need to little more than inform you that it now only acknowledges a debt to you in line with your account balance before the mistake, and acknowledge the proper debt to the proper payee (i.e., notify you and the proper payee of new, corrected, account balances). I do not think you the customer could prevent this, and as you were never entitled to the money, you couldn't object to it afterward.

As long as the money sits 'in your account', you have nothing to worry about. In all likelihood one would have little to protest about if one's bank said 'Oops, sorry; banking error and the money has to be refunded to O'. If, on the other hand, you've spent some, that's where the crime comes in.

If you've managed to spend all the money irretrievably - e.g. buy a ticket to space and take the trip before the mistake is discovered - then the party making the mistake is going to have the legal liability to refund the appropriate sum to O. Otherwise, you will have to.

(pant, pant....)

David Bailey
7th-March-2006, 02:38 PM
{ snip stuff }
Christ, and people think I have to much time on my hands...

Although the geek in me is thinking "Visio plug-in for vBulletin - it's a sure-fire winner"...

Barry Shnikov
7th-March-2006, 02:46 PM
Christ, and people think I have to much time on my hands...

Couple of minutes work, guv.

El Salsero Gringo
7th-March-2006, 04:22 PM
Although the geek in me is thinking "Visio plug-in for vBulletin - it's a sure-fire winner"...And *that's* just 'a small matter of programming.'

Dreadful Scathe
7th-March-2006, 05:31 PM
Is it morally wrong for LMC to hijack threads for her own nefarious purposes ?

LMC
7th-March-2006, 05:34 PM
Not if they are pink. Pink is Evil.

Sorry, was thinking of murals, better go and get some more coffee.