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View Full Version : Should teachers demo the routine before a class?



DavidY
18th-February-2006, 04:17 PM
When I started MJ a few years ago, in the Ceroc venues I went to, my memory is that the teachers would always demonstrate the routine before the start of the class.

Nowadays I notice that some teachers don't demonstrate the routine at the start any more. I remember hearing the logic that absolute beginners could be put off by seeing the routine at the start, but I notice that some teachers don't "demo" the intermediate routines either.

I find it particularly frustrating on weekenders when there's a workshop and I really want to see what coming at the start so I can decide if I want to stay or do another class (or have lunch, or sleep etc.). Obviously it isn't quite the same when the class isn't about moves (eg. a "lead and follow" class), but it's still good to know what to expect at the start (and sometimes it's not obvious from the title).

So should teachers demo the moves at the start?

Piglet
18th-February-2006, 04:22 PM
I like to see the moves at the beginning of the class and our teachers here in Aberdeen always always ALWAYS demo before they teach the moves.

It helped me to decide whether I wanted to try leading in a beginner's class cos that was really scary at first. And I know of one lady who likes to know how many spins will be in the lesson because she doesn't like to be spun too much especially by guys who haven't got the technique quite right to help the lady.

For me the bonus - especially of watching the Intermediate routine (although I'd say the same was true with the beginners' routine way back a good 18 months + back) is that I sometimes think - bloomin' heck that routine goes on forever and she's never going to get us doing that. And I'm always delighted at the end that I've achieved it.

So for me - keep the demo at the beginning!
And thanks to Lorna and Lisa who both do that - I definitely appreciate it. :hug:

onkar
18th-February-2006, 05:35 PM
When I started MJ a few years ago, in the Ceroc venues I went to, my memory is that the teachers would always demonstrate the routine before the start of the class.

Nowadays I notice that some teachers don't demonstrate the routine at the start any more. I remember hearing the logic that absolute beginners could be put off by seeing the routine at the start, but I notice that some teachers don't "demo" the intermediate routines either.

I find it particularly frustrating on weekenders when there's a workshop and I really want to see what coming at the start so I can decide if I want to stay or do another class (or have lunch, or sleep etc.). Obviously it isn't quite the same when the class isn't about moves (eg. a "lead and follow" class), but it's still good to know what to expect at the start (and sometimes it's not obvious from the title).

So should teachers demo the moves at the start?
I think both beginner and intermediate classes should include a full demo of what is to be taught. Gives the members an idea of what is to come.

Have also noticed that many venues now no longer demo the routine as they use to say a year or two ago.

Helps me decide if I want to do the class, or if it is a routine where i either know the moves well or a routine that is too lindy for my tastes, then I can sit out and chat at the bar!

Onkar

LMC
18th-February-2006, 05:37 PM
Most of the venues I go to don't demo any more.

I can see the point of not demo-ing beginners' classes - as DavidY said, first-timers might be put off. But as I am not always happy with dips/seducers in intermediate classes, I want a demo of any intermediate class. I don't really do moves classes at weekenders, I tend to go for style/technique, where (again, as David said) the moves are less important.

Andreas
18th-February-2006, 05:38 PM
I think I always did that because it makes it easier for people to comprehend what they got themselves into :D

The drawback obviously is that you may have some smart people who think they need to teach the steps ahead of the teacher. But those can be dealt with. ;)

ducasi
18th-February-2006, 06:59 PM
At one of my regular venues the teacher always does a demo of both the beginner and the intermediate class at the start – quite often repeating the intermediate routine either to help show us how it all connects up, or just to scare us. :eek:

At my other regular venue the teacher never does a demo beforehand. Then we get surprises "dropped" on us which I have noticed will cause some ladies to drop out mid-class...

I personally like the demo – even when I was a beginner when it did scare me a bit, by the end of the class it was more like "that was easy – but it looked so complicated!" Without the demo you might not realise just how much you've learnt.

Obviously at special classes, workshops and weekenders, etc., a demo may not be directly applicable, but even a demonstration of the skills being taught might be useful...

So yes, I vote for demos where applicable. :nice:

Whitebeard
18th-February-2006, 11:03 PM
I can see the point of not demo-ing beginners' classes - as DavidY said, first-timers might be put off.

I've never seen hordes of newbies grabbing their coats and heading for the doors upon seeing the beginner demo ! !

I give that argument no credence whatsoever, and the poll currently agrees with me.

Ghost
19th-February-2006, 12:41 AM
I've never seen hordes of newbies grabbing their coats and heading for the doors upon seeing the beginner demo ! !

I give that argument no credence whatsoever, and the poll currently agrees with me.
I find it much easier to lead a beginner if they believe they can do the move.
If they say "I can't do that" after seeing the demo, I rely on the LMC method of verbal encouragement. :flower:

But I agree with the consensus of demos of intermediate classs please, especially if they have drops etc.

Take care,
Christopher

LMC
19th-February-2006, 10:29 AM
I've never seen hordes of newbies grabbing their coats and heading for the doors upon seeing the beginner demo ! !

I give that argument no credence whatsoever, and the poll currently agrees with me.
"Put off" does not necessarily mean "scared off" or equate to the beginner leaving the floor. Have you never seen the look on some first timers' faces, or heard them say "I can't do that" when the teacher demonstrates a catapult - on its own? This means that they are tense, even before they start the move - which means they are less likely to take things in.

Although I can see the point of not demo-ing the beginners' class, I don't agree with the lack of demonstration. However, it doesn't give me the same sense of mild frustration as a lack of demo in intermediate classes.

Russell Saxby
19th-February-2006, 11:34 AM
I've never seen hordes of newbies grabbing their coats and heading for the doors upon seeing the beginner demo ! !

I give that argument no credence whatsoever, and the poll currently agrees with me.

If memory serves me correct the decision to drop the demo of the beginners routine was a direct result of Ceroc contacting directly, by phone, a cross section of new members, (in particular ,those that stopped coming) and asking for them for their feedback on a variety of aspects of the "Ceroc Experience".
(but then again I am getting old and my memory doesn't aways serve me correctly)

Lynn
19th-February-2006, 03:11 PM
If memory serves me correct the decision to drop the demo of the beginners routine was a direct result of Ceroc contacting directly, by phone, a cross section of new members, (in particular ,those that stopped coming) and asking for them for their feedback on a variety of aspects of the "Ceroc Experience".
(but then again I am getting old and my memory doesn't aways serve me correctly) Yes, it can be hard for us to think back to what impression we had as a beginner.

But doesn't it work in the opposite way then for busks? Show people what they can achieve? I know I wanted to learn ceroc because I saw other people dancing it.

But really it comes back to different learning styles. Some people like to learn in a sequence, a following b - others like to get the big picture at the start and see where all the bits fit together. As the class is taught in the 'move a then move b' pattern, that already caters for those with that learning style. Removing the demo at the start means there is nothing catering for the 'big picture' preferred learning style.

That means those with that learning style don't get to see how it all fits together till the end of the class and they will probably as a result be trying to work this out as they go along, therefore not giving each move quite as much focus as they could do if they had seen a demo at the start.

In any teaching situation its preferable to cater for both types of learners by providing a 'this is what we are going to cover in this class' at the start.

ducasi
19th-February-2006, 03:17 PM
If memory serves me correct the decision to drop the demo of the beginners routine was a direct result of Ceroc contacting directly, by phone, a cross section of new members, (in particular ,those that stopped coming) and asking for them for their feedback on a variety of aspects of the "Ceroc Experience".
(but then again I am getting old and my memory doesn't aways serve me correctly)
While it is a good thing that Ceroc asks those that stop coming what put them off, they should also ask those that continue to attend what kept them coming.

It seems from this unrepresentative poll of dancers who didn't give up, that the demo is a good thing. It would be foolish to change something for the benefit of those who no longer attend – many of whom would have still given it up even after the changes.

LilyB
20th-February-2006, 12:30 AM
I am afraid I am on the 'Don't demo' side. As a demo for some time for a very experienced Ceroc teacher (and as a teacher myself), it was a common occurence for the teacher half-way through the class to change the intended routine to something simpler, or to cut it short, because the class took far longer to learn the moves than we had anticipated. If we had kept to the original routine planned, we would have over-run the class quite substantially.

If we had demo'd the intended routine at the start, then failed to teach it in its entirety, people would feel that they had missed out. I know this for a fact, as I have experienced this reaction from people when I have either demo'd or taught as teacher. In fact, many people then come up to the teacher after the class and practically demand that the teacher show them the rest of the routine that was demo'd at the start of the class but which the teacher did not finish teaching. At the other extreme, there will also be those who are put off doing a class because the moves demo'd looked too difficult or involved a drop. Without the benefit of the teacher explaining in detail (during the class) how those moves can be done properly and safely or offering an alternative, it would be a little premature for people to drop out of doing the class entirely based on seeing the demo at the start of the lesson.

In any event, if a move is shown during the class which people did not feel happy doing, they are free to drop out at anytime. At least they would up till then have had the benefit of learning what had been taught in the class prior to the move they did not want to do.

Just my personal view from several years' experience as a teacher and demo.

LilyB

Lynn
20th-February-2006, 12:47 AM
I am afraid I am on the 'Don't demo' side. As a demo for some time for a very experienced Ceroc teacher (and as a teacher myself), it was a common occurence for the teacher half-way through the class to change the intended routine to something simpler, or to cut it short, because the class took far longer to learn the moves than we had anticipated. If we had kept to the original routine planned, we would have over-run the class quite substantially.

If we had demo'd the intended routine at the start, then failed to teach it in its entirety, people would feel that they had missed out. I know this for a fact, as I have experienced this reaction from people when I have either demo'd or taught as teacher. In fact, many people then come up to the teacher after the class and practically demand that the teacher show them the rest of the routine that was demo'd at the start of the class but which the teacher did not finish teaching. Good to hear from someone's experience POV!

Fair enough if you have found that people complain if the routine is not taught exactly as demoed. I suppose I'm thinking from 'learning and teaching' perspective which might not apply to dance teaching. I know I frequently have to adjust what I am teaching as I go along and I simply explain to the class that we are spending more time on a particular area because that seems to be what is most benefit to the class and that we are adjusting the lesson to suit the class, which may mean we don't cover all the intended material but will focus on what they need. Most people don't seem to mind this at all, it shows that the teacher is focussed on their learning as a group and adapting to meet the class needs rather than rattling off a prepared lesson.

But then my whole approach to teaching is 'this is what I want them to learn - how does this group learn? How can I best teach this group so that the most effective learning takes place?' and I suppose this flexibility of approach isn't appropriate in a dance teaching context where people expect a certain thing and can get annoyed if they don't get what they expect. (And I'm guilty of that as well, having just got frustrated at the teaching method in a tango class this week!)

spindr
20th-February-2006, 01:06 AM
If there's only a single option, it doesn't make much difference.

If there's multiple options available at the same time, then demo the routine (unless there's a really good description). For example, finding out halfway through a "smooth and slinky" routine that there are drops (or indeed close moves, or footwork, or style :) ) is too late.

SpinDr

TheTramp
20th-February-2006, 02:47 AM
If we had demo'd the intended routine at the start, then failed to teach it in its entirety, people would feel that they had missed out.
Sorry Lily. Don't agree with you. In all the classes I've taught, I've only changed the routine a couple of times. I've sometimes dropped off linking the last move back the the first move in intermediate classes. And occasionally have left off the last move, if the routine has taken significantly longer to teach than I anticipated.

A simple line like, "Okie, going to leave off the last move as we're running out of time. I'll teach it first next week", has always eliminated any problems for me.

You'll have guessed from this that I'm for demo's. I'd always want to know what I was about to learn if I was in a class.

Edit: I just added my vote, and it seems that this is one of the most one sided polls I've ever seen on this forum....

Donna
20th-February-2006, 02:39 PM
Nowadays I notice that some teachers don't demonstrate the routine at the start any more. I remember hearing the logic that absolute beginners could be put off by seeing the routine at the start, but I notice that some teachers don't "demo" the intermediate routines either.

This is true. In my venue we only demonstrate the intermediate routines. Other venues I have been to don't seem to demo at all. It doesn't really matter so much but I think it does if you demonstrate to beginners as you know what it's like before they walk in...they feel nervous. It feels much better for them if you just take it step by step and maybe show them how that one move should look before and after.

Dancing Teeth
20th-February-2006, 02:40 PM
I am afraid I am on the 'Don't demo' side. As a demo for some time for a very experienced Ceroc teacher (and as a teacher myself), it was a common occurence for the teacher half-way through the class to change the intended routine to something simpler, or to cut it short, because the class took far longer to learn the moves than we had anticipated. If we had kept to the original routine planned, we would have over-run the class quite substantially.

If we had demo'd the intended routine at the start, then failed to teach it in its entirety, people would feel that they had missed out. I know this for a fact, as I have experienced this reaction from people when I have either demo'd or taught as teacher. In fact, many people then come up to the teacher after the class and practically demand that the teacher show them the rest of the routine that was demo'd at the start of the class but which the teacher did not finish teaching. At the other extreme, there will also be those who are put off doing a class because the moves demo'd looked too difficult or involved a drop. Without the benefit of the teacher explaining in detail (during the class) how those moves can be done properly and safely or offering an alternative, it would be a little premature for people to drop out of doing the class entirely based on seeing the demo at the start of the lesson.

In any event, if a move is shown during the class which people did not feel happy doing, they are free to drop out at anytime. At least they would up till then have had the benefit of learning what had been taught in the class prior to the move they did not want to do.

Just my personal view from several years' experience as a teacher and demo.

LilyB

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I definitely agree with Lily here... My 12 Years of teaching Weekly classes, Workshops and weekend events have taught me this.

The Other thing is Psychology.. This doesn't happen to all people but there are some, when they see what is in their opinion difficult. They convince themselves that, they can't do it and that’s it.
From the teachers view point, this becomes like teaching someone who can't see or hear you.

Dancing Teeth
20th-February-2006, 02:47 PM
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I definitely agree with Lily here... My 12 Years of teaching Weekly classes, Workshops and weekend events have taught me this.

The Other thing is Psychology.. This doesn't happen to all people but there are some, when they see what is in their opinion difficult. They convince themselves that, they can't do it and that’s it.
From the teachers view point, this becomes like teaching someone who can't see or hear you.


This is also true to Teaching Easy moves first...

This is my preferred way, when people get comfortable with what they are doing; they are open to new challenges. That's when you bring in the so called difficult moves.

This is looked at from a learning prospective, not from a teachers view point of get the difficult ones out of the way first..:flower:

TiggsTours
20th-February-2006, 02:48 PM
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I definitely agree with Lily here... My 12 Years of teaching Weekly classes, Workshops and weekend events have taught me this.

The Other thing is Psychology.. This doesn't happen to all people but there are some, when they see what is in their opinion difficult. They convince themselves that, they can't do it and that’s it.
From the teachers view point, this becomes like teaching someone who can't see or hear you.
I can understand this viewpoint, and agree I have done some superb classes where the class was not demoed at the beginning. It also gives the teacher some space to restructure the class according to how the class are doing, which they can't if they have demoed it already (sorry if this has been said, I haven't had a chance to read it).

The main reason I think a class should be demoed though, is because it gives you the option to not join in if there is something that could be detrimental to your health, or you strongly object to learning for any personal reason. For example, if there is a drop, and you have an injury, it gives you the option to bow out immediately, I have been in classes where I have told my partner I don't want to do the move, but he has still led me into it, forcefully, against my request. Also, as a female, I may want to go into a class as a lead, but then find there are particular moves (overtly up close & sexy, or more advanced drops) that I won't feel comfortable doing as a lead. I have even been in beginner classes where the slow comb is led, and both I and my partner (bearing in mind they are generally very new to dancing, and not comfortable with being so up close and personal with a female they don't know) have felt uncomfortable, me feeling uncomfortable at their discomfort.

I think that if teachers choose not to demo a routine, they must be prepared to offer alternative moves to any moves that people may potentially have good reason to not want to attempt.

Rachel
20th-February-2006, 03:13 PM
Sorry Lily. Don't agree with you. In all the classes I've taught, I've only changed the routine a couple of times. I've sometimes dropped off linking the last move back the the first move in intermediate classes. And occasionally have left off the last move, if the routine has taken significantly longer to teach than I anticipated.

A simple line like, "Okie, going to leave off the last move as we're running out of time. I'll teach it first next week", has always eliminated any problems for me.

You'll have guessed from this that I'm for demo's. I'd always want to know what I was about to learn if I was in a class. I actually agree with The Tramp, and don't like the Ceroc practice of not demo'ing the beginners' routine (although we do show the intermediate).

I think it's absolutely essential to know what you're aiming for and what 'the whole' is supposed to look like. Particularly for first-timers who may have no or very little concept of modern jive dancing.

You'd find it very odd if you went on, e.g., a software course and didn't know what your objectives were, wouldn't you? I strongly believe in learners knowing why they are being told to do what they're doing and how it will help them to achieve the 'objective' at every step of the way. If they're doing this 'blind' with no idea of the outcome, what incentive is there?

And isn't there a greater sense of achievement when they have completed the class and realised that they have actually managed to do (to an extent) what was shown in the demo?

Marc sometimes changes his intermediate routines, if they would otherwise run-over into freestyle time. But again, as Tramp says, it's never been a problem to say: 'rather than running over, we'll shorten the routine and teach the last move another time'. Or sometimes he'll give the class the option of the more difficult or easier ending. Occasionally he'll make a subtle change, but doesn't say anything (we work on the assumption that no-one remembers the exact demo in its entirety, anyway. This could be a false assumption, however …!).

Rachel x

robd
20th-February-2006, 03:18 PM
Occasionally he'll make a subtle change, but doesn't say anything (we work on the assumption that no-one remembers the exact demo in its entirety, anyway. This could be a false assumption, however …!).

Rachel x

It's when he changes it without letting his demo know that things get amusing :nice:

Rachel
20th-February-2006, 03:18 PM
...The main reason I think a class should be demoed though, is because it gives you the option to not join in if there is something that could be detrimental to your health, or you strongly object to learning for any personal reason. For example, if there is a drop, and you have an injury, it gives you the option to bow out immediately, I have been in classes where I have told my partner I don't want to do the move, but he has still led me into it, forcefully, against my request. Also, as a female, I may want to go into a class as a lead, but then find there are particular moves (overtly up close & sexy, or more advanced drops) that I won't feel comfortable doing as a lead. ... :yeah: agree with this too!

I find it awkward and embarrassing to drop out of a class part-way through if something comes up that I'm unwilling or unable to do. At the very least, I feel like I have to wait until I've rotated all the way round until I'm off the floor again, which could be several drops or monkey walks or choreographed rubbish later.
R.

Rachel
20th-February-2006, 03:19 PM
It's when he changes it without letting his demo know that things get amusing :nice: Hmm, amusing for whom?? :wink:

robd
20th-February-2006, 03:27 PM
Hmm, amusing for whom?? :wink:

Those of us watching :rofl:

Wrong thread but my one disappointment on Sat night - not getting a dance with you Rachel :tears:

TheTramp
20th-February-2006, 03:31 PM
For those that voted that routines shouldn't be demostrated.....

Given that (and I know that this isn't a totally representative forum, or even a decent sample size) over 83% of people (who've voted) so far think that the beginner routines should be demonstrated, 87.5% of people think that intermediate routines should be demonstrated, and over 90% of people think that routines at weekenders should be demonstrated, would you consider changing your mind at all?

Just wondered.... :D

Stuart M
20th-February-2006, 04:36 PM
One aspect which may not have been mentioned (apols in advance, don't have time to read threads in detail at the moment). In reference to Intermediate classes, is the demo partner up to it? Should the teacher pressurise their onstage demo partner into a flawless execution of an intermediate routine, 5 minutes after learning it? And before someone says "in that case, the demo shouldn't be up on stage", not every venue/teacher has that quality of dancer available to them.

I know that when I used to be a demo partner, the initial demonstration of "tonight's intermediate moves" was the most nerve-racking part. Well, the second-most nerve-racking part actually, but not every venue has a CJ...

ShinyWeeStar
20th-February-2006, 04:38 PM
Personally, I prefer to see the routine before a class because even though the moves might look scary at first, it gives you a goal to work towards and takes away the uncertainty about what might be coming next (and I don't like not knowing what's coming next).


I think it's absolutely essential to know what you're aiming for and what 'the whole' is supposed to look like. Particularly for first-timers who may have no or very little concept of modern jive dancing.
:yeah: A few weeks ago some first timers walked out a short way into the beginners' lesson and, if I remember correctly, that particular week there was no demo at the start. It could've been that Ceroc just wasn't what they were expecting and a demo would've made no difference, but as Rachel says, maybe if they'd been able to see the routine as a dance rather than in bits as individual moves they'd have seen what they were working towards and had more incentive to stay.

And isn't there a greater sense of achievement when they have completed the class and realised that they have actually managed to do (to an extent) what was shown in the demo?
:yeah: For my first few weeks I remember seeing the demo and thinking "There's no way I'll manage that.", but by the end of the class being pleasantly surprised that I had. :clap: It's also encouraging as the weeks go by to begin to recognise moves in the demo and know that at least some of the lesson will be covering familiar ground. I don't think the demos are any more likely to scare off beginners than seeing dancers doing freestyle, which is a pretty :what: experience at first.

Lory
20th-February-2006, 06:56 PM
The main reason I think a class should be demoed though, is because it gives you the option to not join in if there is something that could be detrimental to your health, or you strongly object to learning for any personal reason. For example, if there is a drop,
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I simply hate doing drops in a class situation and find it extremely embarressing to walk off midway through a class, although I have done :sick: but i'd rather not join in in the first place.:blush:

Re weekenders.. I spend a lot of time tossing up between the benifits of learning verses sleeping and i've just had a brilliant idea!!!!:D ...................
I'd love to have a chance to see demo's of all the weekender classes, in one fell swoop, sometime early on the Friday night, then i'd know instantly what i'd wanted to do! :clap: :clap:

LilyB
20th-February-2006, 07:44 PM
For those that voted that routines shouldn't be demostrated.....

Given that (and I know that this isn't a totally representative forum, or even a decent sample size) over 83% of people (who've voted) so far think that the beginner routines should be demonstrated, 87.5% of people think that intermediate routines should be demonstrated, and over 90% of people think that routines at weekenders should be demonstrated, would you consider changing your mind at all?

Just wondered.... :D

Nope. Anyone who wants detailed reasons can PM me.:wink:

Donna
20th-February-2006, 07:47 PM
Nope. Anyone who wants detailed reasons can PM me.:wink:


Cool avatar!

David Bailey
20th-February-2006, 10:07 PM
Despite the comments from Viktor and Lily, I'm still on the side of the "demo it" crowd.

As a punter, I want to see what I'm getting into.

As far as teaching goes - yes, I know a lot of teachers change tack half-way through, but in all honesty, I don't think that's a good reason to deprive the learners of a chance to see what it's supposed to look like. It almost sounds like the teacher is then making the student work harder, because the teacher wants more flexibility in the class.

Yes, sometimes routines take longer to learn / teach than anticipated - in that case, as said, change the last move to something simple, or just leave it out.

To me, a demonstration is like an introduction - it's not absolutely necessary, but it's very useful.

El Salsero Gringo
20th-February-2006, 10:08 PM
Despite the comments from Viktor and Lily, I'm still on the side of the "demo it".

As a punter, I want to see what I'm getting into.

As far as teaching goes - yes, I know a lot of teachers change tack half-way through, but in all honesty, I don't think that's a good reason to deprive the learners of a chance to see what it's supposed to look like. It almost sounds like the teacher is then making the student work harder, because the teacher wants more flexibility in the class.

Yes, sometimes routines take longer to learn / teach than anticipated - in that case, as said, change the last move to something simple, or just leave it out.

To me, a demonstration is like an introduction - it's not absolutely necessary, but it's very useful.I suppose it would be rude of me to add that for the most part, if a class doesn't 'get' the moves in time to be taught the whole routine, they're probably not sharp enough to realise that a chunk of it has been missed out?

Jive Brummie
20th-February-2006, 10:11 PM
My two-penneth...

Weekenders - demo routines
Weekly classes - no demo for beginners as it scares them and too many teachers dance it in their style...which scares newbies even more
Weekly classes - demo intermediate and show them how the routine could look.

j x x

David Bailey
20th-February-2006, 10:12 PM
I suppose it would be rude of me to add that for the most part, if a class doesn't 'get' the moves in time to be taught the whole routine, they're probably not sharp enough to realise that a chunk of it has been missed out?
You've spent too much time at Finchley... :na:

Oops, bugger, is that the time :eek:

El Salsero Gringo
20th-February-2006, 10:14 PM
You've spent too much time at Finchley... :na:

Oops, bugger, is that the time :eek:In fairness, I think the crowd at Finchley are too sharp, and certainly sharp enough to know that they don't really come to Ceroc to learn dancing.

Gadget
20th-February-2006, 10:57 PM
... i've just had a brilliant idea!!!!:D ...................
I'd love to have a chance to see demo's of all the weekender classes, in one fell swoop, sometime early on the Friday night, then i'd know instantly what i'd wanted to do! :clap: :clap::respect:
With things like that google video, why not have them on-line, then you know in advance what to expect. (Perhaps a bad idea? people ripping off moves and content?)

TheTramp
21st-February-2006, 12:29 AM
Nope. Anyone who wants detailed reasons can PM me.:wink:

Consider this a PM asking for detailed reasons :D.

Next question. Would YOU do a class, where you didn't know what you were getting before you started. Cos, knowing you, I can't believe that you would...

Dazzle
21st-February-2006, 01:33 AM
Am I being simplistic here? If B & Q put a pile of flat-packed units in their window, would they sell better than the assembled kitchen?

If Beginners see what the end result should look like they have a target to aim for. Going straight into individual moves seems very disjointed to me and they feel even more confused as they have no idea where the class is going?

I prefer to see intermediate/advanced/weekender routines demo'd as I can see where I need to pay more attention to the parts I don't already know over the ones I do. Can pick up a whole routine better that way by eliminating what I already can do/know.

Then just my opinion. Not been teaching the length of time of such distinguished members as LilyB and Dancing Teeth :respect: , but confident enought to disagree at this point. However, nerve jangling that feels! LOL! :rofl:

Andybroom
21st-February-2006, 01:50 AM
Consider this a PM asking for detailed reasons :D.

Next question. Would YOU do a class, where you didn't know what you were getting before you started. Cos, knowing you, I can't believe that you would...


I second that. Well not the "knowing you" bit because I only know you by reputation and I don't think you know me, but as a long time student of dance (and, with another hat on, someone who has some training in -er- training) I would say that NOT demonstrating the complete routine before the start is a very bad idea.

So I would be very interested to know why you appear to be flying in the face of one of the basic principles of training (demonstrate, teach, demonstrate again, examine). And, as a dancer, I would certainly feel lost if I hadn't seen the overall shape of what is being taught before you launched into detail.

Andy

LilyB
21st-February-2006, 03:07 AM
Consider this a PM asking for detailed reasons :D.

Next question. Would YOU do a class, where you didn't know what you were getting before you started. Cos, knowing you, I can't believe that you would...

Which part of 'PM' did you not understand?:D

In answer to your specific question, I do that all the time (well, practically). In the USA, from my personal experience, the majority of all workshops/classes I have attended (in WCS, hustle, Carolina Shag, ballroom/latin, amongst others) did not start with the teachers demonstrating the entire routine they intended to teach. And I have never come across anyone in the class complaining that the teacher did not do so. Or refusing to do the class because the teacher failed to demo the routine first. . If I choose to attend a class in a particular style of dance (eg. WCS) at a particular level to suit my ability (eg. Advanced moves), it is because I [I]want to learn what that particular teacher (eg. Mario Robau) has to teach. 100% of it (and more!:drool: ).

One caveat though - I would not do a class if I 'didn't know what I was getting before I started'. I am always aware of what I want to learn, be it WCS, hustle, technique, etc.:wink: The actual moves themselves would not bother me - it is unlikely that I would have done them before, and even if I have, I usually find I learn something new.

Again, this is just my personal view, as Trampy has asked me the question.

TheTramp
21st-February-2006, 03:45 AM
Okie. I don't doubt at all that if Mario Robau was teaching, that you would go along, and learn whatever it was that he was going to teach, without any further incentive necessary. Or any of the other teachers classes that you would actually consider attending yourself.

But now put yourself in the situation of someone attending a modern jive class, with no other dance experience, not really knowing what they were there for. Would you want to see what you were going to be doing then? Or someone who has been doing modern jive for a few months, and is going along to an intermediate class. Or even a fairly experienced modern jiver who is going to a class they haven't attended before, and doesn't know the teacher, or what sort of class they taught. How about then?

Because, lets face it, given those situations, you wouldn't know what you were getting before you started. And then you'd want to see what you were being taught? As per your caveat....

And I humbly submit that it was that sort of class that we were talking about, not being taught advanced WCS by one of the 'greats'.

And I would have sent you a PM, if I wasn't replying to you already. I figured that it didn't really make a great deal of difference. I will send you a PM asking for details if you like though... :flower:

LMC
21st-February-2006, 11:05 AM
... Or someone who has been doing modern jive for a few months, and is going along to an intermediate class. Or even a fairly experienced modern jiver who is going to a class they haven't attended before, and doesn't know the teacher, or what sort of class they taught. How about then?

Because, lets face it, given those situations, you wouldn't know what you were getting before you started. And then you'd want to see what you were being taught? As per your caveat....
I take Lily's point about "knowing what to expect" and agree in principle - if I know the level of the class, then the lack of a demo doesn't "distress" me, although I would still like one!

For weekly Ceroc classes though, I agree with Rachel.

It kind of relates to dance levels. In a Ceroc intermediate class, you have people who might only *just* be out of beginner classes as well as people who have been dancing for years. The combination of me (not confident and not a small girl), a new intermediate with little safe technique (or worse, a long-term intermediate of the type we all know and complain about, I'm not going to do so again here) and a ballroom drop is, frankly, scary*. Even if it is "the move", not the partner, dropping out of a class can be taken amiss. Even if an alternative is offered, I've had times where I've told a partner I'm not happy doing the "First Move Sit" or a seducer and had them quite angry with me for not "allowing" them to learn the "better" move. Too many men seem to take it as a slur on their strength/manhood if I tell them I'm not comfortable with a move - "You'll be OK with me" - hey, it's not you I don't trust (well, actually, sometimes it is partly, but I have some tact) - it's me.

Weekly intermediate classes should always, IMO, be demonstrated. Oh, and if people are talking over the demo and the teaching, the teacher should perhaps encourage them to watch/listen and point out that things would go faster if they did... *cough* Finchley *cough*

*I was in an Advanced class at Stevenage where new-ish intermediates were present and what I can only describe as a "dead man's drop" was taught - a fast drop where the only means of support for the follower is on the back of the neck. The class was demo-ed beforehand. Knowing our limitations, I (and a few others) bailed out of the class immediately. Rather too scarily, too many other people who perhaps should have bailed, didn't. Yes, I did feed back at the time that I felt that move was not ideal for that class/venue.

Dorothy
21st-February-2006, 12:04 PM
Too many men seem to take it as a slur on their strength/manhood if I tell them I'm not comfortable with a move - "You'll be OK with me" - hey, it's not you I don't trust (well, actually, sometimes it is partly, but I have some tact) - it's me.

Weekly intermediate classes should always, IMO, be demonstrated. Oh, and if people are talking over the demo and the teaching, the teacher should perhaps encourage them to watch/listen and point out that things would go faster if they did...


Hear hear LMC.
Ditto all of that. I prefer to see what is being taught, and then I can make my own decision as to whether or not I wish to do every move of the routine.

El Salsero Gringo
21st-February-2006, 01:07 PM
Hear hear LMC.
Ditto all of that. I prefer to see what is being taught, and then I can make my own decision as to whether or not I wish to do every move of the routine.Whether or not the whole routine is demonstrated at the start - I've never been to a class where each move wasn't shown complete before teaching it. Isn't that sufficient to judge whether you want to learn it, or whether you think your partner is suitable to do it with you?

LMC
21st-February-2006, 01:34 PM
Yeah, but:


I find it awkward and embarrassing to drop out of a class part-way through if something comes up that I'm unwilling or unable to do. At the very least, I feel like I have to wait until I've rotated all the way round until I'm off the floor again, which could be several drops or monkey walks or choreographed rubbish later.
Whether this awkwardness is "reasonable" or not is neither here nor there. I suspect Rachel and I are not the only ones who would feel this way.

spindr
21st-February-2006, 01:35 PM
Whether or not the whole routine is demonstrated at the start - I've never been to a class where each move wasn't shown complete before teaching it. Isn't that sufficient to judge whether you want to learn it, or whether you think your partner is suitable to do it with you?
If ithere's a drop half way though a class -- I want to know -- I will do a different one (where I can). Otherwise, I have to drop out confuse the rotation, etc., etc. and I lose half of a class that I could have been learning something useful -- I find I can't easily change classes when they are halfway through.

If the drop's at the beginning, I can do a quick change of class and catch up relatively quickly -- if it's at the end, I don't miss that much.

Oh and for drop, you may as well read as lift / close move / footwork or whatever is your own particular bete noire.

SpinDr

Donna
21st-February-2006, 03:49 PM
If ithere's a drop half way though a class -- I want to know -- I will do a different one (where I can). Otherwise, I have to drop out confuse the rotation, etc., etc. and I lose half of a class that I could have been learning something useful -- I find I can't easily change classes when they are halfway through.

If the drop's at the beginning, I can do a quick change of class and catch up relatively quickly -- if it's at the end, I don't miss that much.

Oh and for drop, you may as well read as lift / close move / footwork or whatever is your own particular bete noire.

SpinDr

Your talking as if you mean an advanced class? I've never known a drop to be taught in an intermediate and certainly not a beginners. Usually it only goes as far as dips in an intermediate class.

LMC
21st-February-2006, 03:52 PM
Trouble is, even if the class is Advanced, the attendees may not be - there doesn't seem to be a checking mechanism. The Jive Bar Advanced classes are billed as suitable only for people with more than 12 months dancing experience - but with only 8 months experience, I had no trouble getting in (or any trouble with the class as it 'appens) - and they would have been able to tell from my membership number.

Donna
21st-February-2006, 03:57 PM
Trouble is, even if the class is Advanced, the attendees may not be - there doesn't seem to be a checking mechanism. The Jive Bar Advanced classes are billed as suitable only for people with more than 12 months dancing experience - but with only 8 months experience, I had no trouble getting in (or any trouble with the class as it 'appens) - and they would have been able to tell from my membership number.


I agree with you saying that the attendees may not be advanced level dancers, because for most, becoming an advanced level dancer would be almost impossible after 12 months.

TheTramp
21st-February-2006, 04:00 PM
I agree with you saying that the attendees may not be advanced level dancers, because for most, becoming an advanced level dancer would be almost impossible after 12 months.

:yeah:

I thought that at the time. Personally, I don't think that it's ever the amount of time. It's just how good you are. Some people are 'advanced' modern jivers after a few weeks (usually only the ladies). Some people are still not advanced after 10 years (probably went to the Central Club! :rolleyes: ).

Of course, now we're back to the cards system! :whistle:

spindr
21st-February-2006, 04:11 PM
Your talking as if you mean an advanced class? I've never known a drop to be taught in an intermediate and certainly not a beginners. Usually it only goes as far as dips in an intermediate class.
I don't care what level it is -- I want to know if the class has drops, or whatever. Oh and for the record, drops don't make it advanced :)

SpinDr

Donna
21st-February-2006, 04:49 PM
It's just how good you are. Some people are 'advanced' modern jivers after a few weeks (usually only the ladies).


:yeah: As my ballroom teacher says..you can only be as good as the person you are dancing with. In this case, for the ladies that is true. I've seen some brilliant female dancers over the past three years. When they dance with somebody who is on their level or EVEN HIGHER they become better and look amaaazing. Watch them dance with other experienced dancers who don't have a positive lead or a variety of good moves, then it doesn't matter how good she tries to make herself look, it just doesn't work.

Gadget
22nd-February-2006, 01:08 AM
... Watch them dance with other experienced dancers who don't have a positive lead or a variety of good moves, then it doesn't matter how good she tries to make herself look, it just doesn't work.Not true. I have seen several ladies who are fab dancers still look like fab dancers, no matter who they are dancing with. eg Lily or Lisa.

Whitebeard
22nd-February-2006, 01:49 AM
Not true. I have seen several ladies who are fab dancers still look like fab dancers, no matter who they are dancing with. eg Lily or Lisa.

What about their partners ?? Have they been completely subjucated and demeaned or have they been encouraged to rise to the challenge ??

DavidB
22nd-February-2006, 02:06 AM
What about their partners ?? Have they been completely subjucated and demeaned or have they been encouraged to rise to the challenge ??
Lily told me to say "no"

David Bailey
22nd-February-2006, 09:10 AM
Lily told me to say "no"
:rofl: :respect: :worthy: :clap:

Whitebeard
22nd-February-2006, 09:30 AM
Lily told me to say "no"

Thanks Lily, I'm floating on air. Basking in reflected glory.

Lynn
22nd-February-2006, 10:37 AM
Not true. I have seen several ladies who are fab dancers still look like fab dancers, no matter who they are dancing with. eg Lily or Lisa.:yeah: I was thinking of Lily when I read that too. She would still look great and would probably make the lead look better than he is too.

Little Em
22nd-February-2006, 11:02 AM
wasn sure whether to post this or not as there seems to be some fairly heated opinions on this, but here goes.....:wink:

in ceroc central it is policy not to demo the routine... but the routines are fairly 'structured' :eek: (dare i use that word!!)... the routine will usually go like this..

move 1.) beginners variation
move 2.) 'a classic' move (i.e wurlitzer, teapot, those type of moves.)
move 3, & 4. ) teacher can pretty much choose here, but it needs to be something that will possibly challenge the more 'advanced' dancers and fit in/flow with the rest of the routine....

So every week, you know your gonna be getting a little something for everyone (ish) and yes there will be harder things in there but thats a challenge, everybody needs to be challenged! if you dont feel comfortable doing a drop or something ....tell your partner, if they go in a mood about it... tough.... dont worry its their problem not yours, :confused: an it wont be long before your rotated again anyway...... if they do 'force' you into something that you have said no too...that is bad of that guy an i cant believe guys do that!!!:sick: bad men! you tell them off for it.........:D

i can see the reasons people do want the class to be shown, but we dont, an thats the way it is, but with us you pretty much know what you are going to get every week.... a bit of everything!!!:D

:flower: :flower: (no body is to shout at me.....:tears:

Donna
22nd-February-2006, 12:38 PM
:yeah: I was thinking of Lily when I read that too. She would still look great and would probably make the lead look better than he is too.


That's because Lily is a very strong dancer. You might see a good dancer who is good with their partner, but if they happen to not look so good when dancing with someone else, then they're not.

I know a couple who are just fab, but when watching them dance with someone else, it's not the same.

LMC
22nd-February-2006, 12:41 PM
I've seen even the wonderful fabulous Lily stumble and dance off-beat when being thrown around by a naughty lead - hope it didn't hurt too much! Even so, her style was still obvious - when she's with a good lead, I could watch her all night! :flower:

Donna
22nd-February-2006, 12:46 PM
I've seen even the wonderful fabulous Lily stumble and dance off-beat when being thrown around by a naughty lead - hope it didn't hurt too much!

Oh yeah of course you can still see when someone is a good dancer. Poor woman must have trying not to get her shoulders pulled out of place!



Even so, her style was still obvious - when she's with a good lead, I could watch her all night! :flower:

Me too! I was watching her dance with someone up here in Northwich. (Think his name is Dave) I've danced with this guy before and he's just such an amazing lead. Lily danced with him a lot but they looked great together.

By the way Lily, do you want to swap wardrobes? :flower:

Gadget
22nd-February-2006, 02:23 PM
What about their partners ?? Have they been completely subjucated and demeaned or have they been encouraged to rise to the challenge ??I think it's a combination of a few things:

"Terror" - OMG - this girl can dance... I don't know if I can do her justice...

"Elation" - I'm dancing with one of the best dancers, and she said yes; she wanted to dance with me

"Confusion" - Wow, that was reeeealy cool... I wonder how I led that?

"Panic" - What the hell are they doing? What the hell am I going to do after this move; I've used up all the ones I know?

"Bliss" - wooo - look how she moves when I do this; I bareley have to lead anything!

... does that add up to being subjucated or demeaned?

Rachel
22nd-February-2006, 03:19 PM
...i can see the reasons people do want the class to be shown, but we dont, an thats the way it is, but with us you pretty much know what you are going to get every week.... a bit of everything!!!:D

:flower: :flower: (no body is to shout at me.....:tears: Not shouting, honest, but I don't really agree with the 'with us you pretty much know what you are going to get'.

Just take you and Marc for a start - both Ceroc Central teachers, both using the structure you mentioned, but you couldn't get intermediate routines that are more different.

Rachel x

PS hope you're feeling better now? :flower:

Little Em
22nd-February-2006, 03:30 PM
Not shouting, honest, but I don't really agree with the 'with us you pretty much know what you are going to get'.

Just take you and Marc for a start - both Ceroc Central teachers, both using the structure you mentioned, but you couldn't get intermediate routines that are more different.

Rachel x

PS hope you're feeling better now? :flower:


yes thats true when it comes to style, we are very different.
BUT..... in terms of how hard the moves are.... we are giving the same....
i.e we will both teach a beg variation, a classic.. and so on... so there is something there for everyone??? the moves are different, but there will be something in the routine for each level of dancer.

does tha make sense im not very good at putting thoughts into words sometimes!:blush:

im much better thank you... im riding the road to recovery quite smoothly now, and will deffo b at storm!:clap:

:hug: :flower:

Donna
23rd-February-2006, 02:11 PM
BUT..... in terms of how hard the moves are.... we are giving the same....
i.e we will both teach a beg variation, a classic.. and so on... so there is something there for everyone??? the moves are different, but there will be something in the routine for each level of dancer.

I agree. I've only ever done two advance classes up here (your lucky if you can get one) and I think everybody coped really well. Simply because there is something in it that everybody will be able to do plus it's all taught in the same way.

Lynn
23rd-February-2006, 02:37 PM
I've seen even the wonderful fabulous Lily stumble and dance off-beat when being thrown around by a naughty lead - hope it didn't hurt too much! Even so, her style was still obvious - when she's with a good lead, I could watch her all night! :flower:Of course if a lead is literally pulling the follow off balance then its impossible to look good even if you are a fabulous dancer. (And a good follow will probably adopt 'defensive' following to try and minimise any potential injury, over 'style' anyway. The really good followers can probably do both!)

Donna
23rd-February-2006, 02:42 PM
Of course if a lead is literally pulling the follow off balance then its impossible to look good even if you are a fabulous dancer. (And a good follow will probably adopt 'defensive' following to try and minimise any potential injury, over 'style' anyway. The really good followers can probably do both!)


:yeah: I don't think some guys know their own strength sometimes.:rolleyes:

Dancing Teeth
24th-February-2006, 11:43 AM
At my class last night, I asked if they preferred me to demo the routine before teaching it, and the majority said yes. Majority rules.


Here are my observations.

Some people in the class got exited about the routine and some looked disillusioned.

During the class, some people got impatient with others who couldn’t get the class quickly enough because they were holding them back from progressing and doing that fourth move they wanted to jump too.

Missed out one move because of time, so made an announced saying, as per demo, we are going to miss out one move but don’t worry because we’ll do it next week, three couples came over in freestyle asking to learn the move I missed out in the demo.



So, form your our conclusions. Is it really worth the trouble?

I’m sure if you look at individual cases, there could be compelling reason for it, but generally. Is it worth the trouble?

Gadget
24th-February-2006, 02:05 PM
At my class last night, I asked if they preferred me to demo the routine before teaching it, and the majority said yes. Majority rules.

Here are my observations....
~
So, form your our conclusions. Is it really worth the trouble?
And what are your observations from a "normal" night? Hard to draw conclusions with nothing to compare against.

Dancing Teeth
24th-February-2006, 02:09 PM
And what are your observations from a "normal" night? Hard to draw conclusions with nothing to compare against.

This was a "normal" weekly night... I teach there every thursday...

spindr
24th-February-2006, 02:39 PM
Some people in the class got exited about the routine and some looked disillusioned.
Well, I guess the excited ones hadn't seen the routine/moves before -- the disillusioned ones might have been trepidatious about the complexity, or just wanted to learn some new stuff :)


During the class, some people got impatient with others who couldn’t get the class quickly enough because they were holding them back from progressing and doing that fourth move they wanted to jump too.
Great you have some keen students? Also, sounds like some people were in a class that was too high a level.


Missed out one move because of time
Well, from a punters perspective much better than finishing early -- or suddenly moving every one round lots just to fill in the time :devil:


so made an announced saying, as per demo, we are going to miss out one move but don’t worry because we’ll do it next week, three couples came over in freestyle asking to learn the move I missed out in the demo.
This is always annoying as a punter when the missing move is the "interesting" one :)

Maybe easier to demo a shorter routine and then add the extra move that you *suddenly* have time for :)


So, form your our conclusions. Is it really worth the trouble?

I’m sure if you look at individual cases, there could be compelling reason for it, but generally. Is it worth the trouble?
Yes, if you are teaching something that requires special skills --- drops / close moves, etc.

SpinDr.

Gadget
24th-February-2006, 02:47 PM
This was a "normal" weekly night... I teach there every thursday...
:rolleyes: I meant how do the 'punters' normally react as you progress the routine? At the end of each move demmoed, are there some that are dissapointed? some excited?...etc.
(I assume that you demo each move before teaching it - it's just the whole you normally don't.)

Dancing Teeth
24th-February-2006, 03:34 PM
:rolleyes: I meant how do the 'punters' normally react as you progress the routine? At the end of each move demmoed, are there some that are dissapointed? some excited?...etc.
(I assume that you demo each move before teaching it - it's just the whole you normally don't.)


I Demo each move before I teach it yes, but not the whole routine. There is usually a quite smiley acceptance to the moves..

They said yes to the whole routine and that's what they got.

I think, generally most people just like to see a little show on stage. They like to see their teacher showing off and stuff because when I do a demo of the routine, it includes all the bells and whistles.:grin:


People usually help each other in the class. I haven't seen them be short with each other.:eek: I Think it down to the me as the teacher to make an executive decision as to which path I take on this.:sick:

Andybroom
24th-February-2006, 08:19 PM
At my class last night, I asked if they preferred me to demo the routine before teaching it, and the majority said yes. Majority rules.



I have to say, no surprise there then!




So, form your our conclusions. Is it really worth the trouble?


Yes.

If you've got people in your class who are finding it's at to low a level then you either have to increase the complexity of the class to cater for them or stick at the level you are at for the others. That depends on how many are finding that, I guess, and on the type/level of dancer you, as the teacher, wish to cater for.

Unless it's a beginners class, in which case you should be suggetsing some of them move up to intermediates.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with why you demo the moves and isn't a good reason for not demoing.

Andy

Gadget
24th-February-2006, 09:42 PM
I think, generally most people just like to see a little show on stage. They like to see their teacher showing off and stuff because when I do a demo of the routine, it includes all the bells and whistles.:grin: Perhaps. :innocent:
Another question: assuming that the demo is done at the start of the class, should it be demmoed as it could be danced? Or should it be demmoed as it will (probably) be taught?
(Is there a difference?)

I think that if the people want to see an exhibition, then give them one... the only problem may then be "you are going to teach me that?? :what: I have no chance :tears:"


I think {that} it {is} down to the me as the teacher to make an executive decision as to which path I take on this.:sick:Personally, I think that one class is a bit narrow to make the descision on, especially if you see a strong argument against it.

LilyB
24th-February-2006, 11:10 PM
At my class last night, I asked if they preferred me to demo the routine before teaching it, and the majority said yes. .........

Some people in the class got exited about the routine and some looked disillusioned.

During the class, some people got impatient with others who couldn’t get the class quickly enough because they were holding them back from progressing and doing that fourth move they wanted to jump too.

Missed out one move because of time, so made an announced saying, as per demo, we are going to miss out one move but don’t worry because we’ll do it next week, three couples came over in freestyle asking to learn the move I missed out in the demo.


So, form your our conclusions. Is it really worth the trouble?

I’m sure if you look at individual cases, there could be compelling reason for it, but generally. Is it worth the trouble?

:yeah: :respect:

However, whilst I agree entirely with Viktor because that has been my personal experience, I also accept that other teachers' experience differ from ours and hence they prefer to demo their routine at the start of the class. :respect: to them too.

What I do not accept is other people suggesting that the reasons put forward by some teachers "isn't a good reason for not demoing". Perhaps these people may wish to vote with their feet and boycott those teachers whose style of teaching they so disapprove of. I have yet to see droves of people leaving classes where the teacher did not demo the routine at the start, and I have personally never encountered an organiser or franchisee who has ordered his/her teachers to demo their routine at the start of the class. If I am asked to demo the routine at the start of the class, I have no objections to doing it. If I am not, then I don't. My decision, based on my experience and judgement, simple as that.

Amir
25th-February-2006, 03:09 AM
Like Lily says, whether you demo or not I think depends on the kind of class you are teaching, and who is in it. I know some great teachers who will demo a routine beautifully and then teach every step. Whenever I demo what I plan to teach, I always regret it.

You can plan a speech but not a conversation.

I try to make my classes like a conversation - when I am teaching well my material is constantly modified in response to the class.

Since the aim of a modern jive class is to teach leaders to improvise moves in freestyle, and for followers to follow even unfamiliar movements, then shouldn't we have more classes that have less emphasis on doing routines?

On the whole, if a teacher demos the routine, they probably have a good reason for it. If they don't, they probably have good reason for that too.

If I have an experienced teacher, I just trust their judgement. If I don't trust them, then I find another teacher!

Dazzle
25th-February-2006, 10:32 AM
Like Lily says, whether you demo or not I think depends on the kind of class you are teaching, and who is in it. I know some great teachers who will demo a routine beautifully and then teach every step. Whenever I demo what I plan to teach, I always regret it.

You can plan a speech but not a conversation.

I try to make my classes like a conversation - when I am teaching well my material is constantly modified in response to the class.

Since the aim of a modern jive class is to teach leaders to improvise moves in freestyle, and for followers to follow even unfamiliar movements, then shouldn't we have more classes that have less emphasis on doing routines?

On the whole, if a teacher demos the routine, they probably have a good reason for it. If they don't, they probably have good reason for that too.

If I have an experienced teacher, I just trust their judgement. If I don't trust them, then I find another teacher!

Why do I always change my mind when you lay down such pearls of wisdom? :worthy: Am I a swine? LOL!

Lynn
25th-February-2006, 01:37 PM
I try to make my classes like a conversation - when I am teaching well my material is constantly modified in response to the class. That's a very important part of teaching. I always end up doing some modification of material I am delivering in response to the group I am teaching. In fact if I wasn't I probably wouldn't enjoy teaching anywhere near as much as it would just be rattling off a prepared speech.

Been thinking about this in the context of dancing and for me the point of the demo is to give the learners an overview of what is going to be covered in the class so that they know roughly where the class is going - especially for those learners who like the 'big picture' approach to learning.

Could an alternative to a demo therefore be a verbal 'today we are going to teach some moves which will help us learn about X' rather than actually showing the exact moves? This would allow flexibility for the teacher to change the details of the class and respond to the class needs but also give learners an approximation as to where the class was going.

DavidY
25th-February-2006, 04:34 PM
Been thinking about this in the context of dancing and for me the point of the demo is to give the learners an overview of what is going to be covered in the class so that they know roughly where the class is going :yeah:

I've been reading with interest the responses from those who prefer not to demo.

One issue I have with this is when as a punter, I don't know what I'm going to get, especially at a weekend event when more than one class is on at the same time.

For instance suppose I'm at a weekender and at a particular point I have the choice between Amir's class and Dancing Teeth's. Obviously both great teachers with a great reputation, but if I haven't been to many of their classes before, how do I know which one to choose?

Some sort of demo at the start could help me make up my mind to stay in a particular class or to switch to the other one. Even if the exact moves aren't the same as happen later in the class, a demo would give me a pretty good idea of what's coming up and help me to make an informed choice.

LMC
25th-February-2006, 05:07 PM
If I have an experienced teacher, I just trust their judgement.
:yeah:

except it's not the teacher I don't trust, it's some partners :( - I still don't like being "surprised" by finding there is a drop in the routine when I'm in a regular Ceroc intermediate class, as some intermediates are simply not up to leading the move safely, and I'm not good enough myself to be able to compensate for that 100% of the time. If I could be guaranteed no drops in any class/workshop, then I wouldn't be concerned about a demo. Perhaps that's the answer :doubtful smiley: - don't demo the routine, but give a lean/dip/drop warning? - any experience of trying this? :flower:

El Salsero Gringo
25th-February-2006, 05:41 PM
Speaking as the 'silent' half of a teaching pair (the demonstrator - or ex-demonstrator, I should say) I think demoing the whole routine is a little show to add a bit of shine to the class. I've often been asked whether I want to demo the routine the teacher is about to teach and I've always said yes, except when for one reason or another I'm not fully confident about dancing through all of the moves on stage and making them look stylish.

bigdjiver
26th-February-2006, 10:35 AM
Michaela demoed the routine at the Corn Exchange freestyle last night, and it is her usual practise to demo. The class consisted entirely of new update moves that most would not have seen before. There was some risk in the routine and I am sure the demo was appreciated. In particular my first partner was a first timer. I told her that a freestyle class could be anything, and to wait for the demo before deciding whether to do the class. A few moths back A class had been on cha-cha moves, and most of us were beginners at those.

Dancing Teeth
26th-February-2006, 01:15 PM
:yeah: :respect:

However, whilst I agree entirely with Viktor because that has been my personal experience, I also accept that other teachers' experience differ from ours and hence they prefer to demo their routine at the start of the class. :respect: to them too.

What I do not accept is other people suggesting that the reasons put forward by some teachers "isn't a good reason for not demoing". Perhaps these people may wish to vote with their feet and boycott those teachers whose style of teaching they so disapprove of. I have yet to see droves of people leaving classes where the teacher did not demo the routine at the start, and I have personally never encountered an organiser or franchisee who has ordered his/her teachers to demo their routine at the start of the class. If I am asked to demo the routine at the start of the class, I have no objections to doing it. If I am not, then I don't. My decision, based on my experience and judgement, simple as that.

:yeah:

Dancing Teeth
26th-February-2006, 01:16 PM
Like Lily says, whether you demo or not I think depends on the kind of class you are teaching, and who is in it. I know some great teachers who will demo a routine beautifully and then teach every step. Whenever I demo what I plan to teach, I always regret it.

You can plan a speech but not a conversation.

I try to make my classes like a conversation - when I am teaching well my material is constantly modified in response to the class.

Since the aim of a modern jive class is to teach leaders to improvise moves in freestyle, and for followers to follow even unfamiliar movements, then shouldn't we have more classes that have less emphasis on doing routines?

On the whole, if a teacher demos the routine, they probably have a good reason for it. If they don't, they probably have good reason for that too.

If I have an experienced teacher, I just trust their judgement. If I don't trust them, then I find another teacher!


:yeah:

Dancing Teeth
26th-February-2006, 01:17 PM
That's a very important part of teaching. I always end up doing some modification of material I am delivering in response to the group I am teaching. In fact if I wasn't I probably wouldn't enjoy teaching anywhere near as much as it would just be rattling off a prepared speech.

.


:yeah:

Dancing Teeth
26th-February-2006, 01:20 PM
Why do I always change my mind when you lay down such pearls of wisdom? :worthy: Am I a swine? LOL!


I think enough has been said on this; I'll sign off because We are going round in circles....:respect:

David Bailey
26th-February-2006, 06:17 PM
I've certainly rethought my views on this, due to the posts from various luminaries...

I still think it's an essential part of any teaching process to communicate, at the start, what you're trying to achieve in that learning session. Any teaching, anywhere.

I also think this is especially important for people who are coming to a class "cold", so that they have some idea what they'll be learning. And of course, it provides them with the opportunity to drop out if they choose, before the class starts - for example, if they have an injury.

And in dancing, I suspect the most efficient way of providing that introduction is with a demonstration - talking a routine through is much more difficult and much less likely to be remembered.

However, this may not apply in quite the same way to classes which allow a conversational and interactive format - smaller or advanced classes, or specific sessions such as workshops which are aimed at particular areas. If you're going to a Drops workshop, it shouldn't be a major surprise to find that you do one or two drops in the session. If you go to an "X rated workshop", it's maybe not a shock to see that you do some close moves. :whistle:

Also, I take the point that allowing some flexibility, to cope with faster / slower learning speeds or class requirements, is a good thing and can provide a more effective lesson.

But I'm a punter, not a teacher. And for a standard (Ceroc-style) class, with say 80 people learning, some for the first time, I think it's not helpful for us poor suckers, in a standard class, if we can't see the routine at the start. It's hard enough learning moves for most people as it is, without having to also try to imagine how the whole finished product.

Now, whether "routine-based" sessions are the best way to teach MJ dancing - that's a completely separate question, and I'd be fully on board with anyone questioning that approach.

But assuming you do teach a routine, and assuming it's to a standard Ceroc / MJ class format, then yes, I'd mostly expect and want to see a demonstration of that routine; even knowing that there may be tweaks / alterations as you go.

Gadget
26th-February-2006, 10:09 PM
{I could have selected other poster' bits to quote, but this was about the only bit of amir's that hasn't been quoted yet :wink:}

Since the aim of a modern jive class is to teach leaders to improvise moves in freestyle, and for followers to follow even unfamiliar movements, then shouldn't we have more classes that have less emphasis on doing routines?
This is my point of asking whether a demo should be of the forthcoming routine, or a demonstration of what you could learn from the forthcoming routine.

I have seen double/tripple spins in the demo that were not taught. I have seen styling, timeing and kicks that were not taught, I have seen a demo end with a smooth, low dip, but the first thing that the teacher said was "Don't worry; I'm not teaching that move, just a little half-turn/twist." and the point was emphisised later that if you wanted to practice with someone, you could do this move (see me after the class), but it's not what is being taught and I don't want to see it while I'm teaching.

This is the escence of the (intermediate) demo to me - showing what could be done rather than what is planned to be taught and 'counting/calling' it through.

{It also can set up the teaching to slot in things like "style" and "technique" that would otherwise be missing.}

TheTramp
27th-February-2006, 02:04 AM
I've certainly rethought my views on this, due to the posts from various luminaries...

:yeah: At least, I've thought about what certain people have had to say, and in the end, I still think that it's appropriate to demo ceroc classes before teaching them.

I don't agree that demoing a class means that you then have to be inflexible about what you teach. And if you think that you might want to be flexible, then you can introduce the demo by saying, "This is probably what we're going to teach tonight". Or announcing that you're changing it, and why when you make the change. I also believe that most people won't even notice that you've changed it, unless there was something particularly flashy in the demo, that isn't then in the teach.

I agree with Lily that there aren't going to be lots of people leaving classes because they haven't been demo'd. However, there might be lots of people leaving classes once they have been demo'd. Which is possibly a reason for some people not demoing :devil: . (Please note that I wish to make it quite clear that I don't consider it at all likely that Lily will be in this group. I have however seen (and heard about) several classes at places like Bognor and Camber, where there have been significantly less than 50% of the people who started the class left at the end!).

However, I believed that a significant majority (which has been the result of this poll) of people would prefer to see at least a rough guide to what they are about to be taught before it starts. And since we are there to give people what they want....

(I will agree that the people who completed the poll are however, not a good representation of the average person attending a class.)

I did find it interesting that the people most vociferous against demoing are people that I consider to be among the better teachers. Though I'm not quite sure of the significance of that.

And finally, of course, it's up to the people concerned as to whether or not they demo their classes. :respect:

Piglet
27th-February-2006, 02:14 PM
I was thinking about this one over the weekend and relating it to different learning styles...

I think that its important that the teacher and demo do the whole routine at the beginning because it works for both the people who want to see it and those who don't:

For the people that want to see the whole routine done - they can enjoy watching.

For the people who don't want to see the whole routine done - they can close their eyes or come late.

In this scenario no-one is upset.

However, in scenario 2, if you don't show a demo of the routine then you may upset one group of people - the ones who want to see it.

In scenario 1 there is no reason for all the group not to be happy. Sorted!

Donna
27th-February-2006, 06:39 PM
I was thinking about this one over the weekend and relating it to different learning styles...

I think that its important that the teacher and demo do the whole routine at the beginning because it works for both the people who want to see it and those who don't:

For the people that want to see the whole routine done - they can enjoy watching.

For the people who don't want to see the whole routine done - they can close their eyes or come late.

In this scenario no-one is upset.

However, in scenario 2, if you don't show a demo of the routine then you may upset one group of people - the ones who want to see it.

In scenario 1 there is no reason for all the group not to be happy. Sorted!

:yeah:

LMC
1st-March-2006, 10:46 AM
What DJ said :yeah:

Most workshops/weekender classes have a clue of their content in the description. Dips and drops, Aerials, Blues (=smooth, UCP) are all obvious, even to a thick like me - in which case I'm truly and honestly not bothered about a demo. It's "nice to have", but not essential.

However "intermediate" or "fun" classes could contain anything from "nice" to "OK, I suppose" to "OMG, that is SO cheesy" or ":eek:, that's just DANGEROUS". So I still persist in wanting a demo for these. Otherwise I'm potentially going to upset more people by walking out mid-class - even if I make it clear that it's not them as a partner, it's the move, there's no guarantee that they will believe me :(

Donna
1st-March-2006, 02:25 PM
So I still persist in wanting a demo for these. Otherwise I'm potentially going to upset more people by walking out mid-class

:yeah: There is this one guy I know who if is not satified with what he has seen in the demo, then he will walk off the floor. Everybody talks about him and yet, he hasn't been doing it that long, which er, oh yes...takes us back to this thread.

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7751

:D

LMC
1st-March-2006, 02:59 PM
I feel slightly quoted out of context there.

If I choose not to do or continue with a class, it's not because I think I know it all (the more I learn, the more I realise there is to learn), it's because I don't like the move or consider it dangerous for me, if not for others.

bigdjiver
2nd-March-2006, 05:31 AM
I will walk out of a class if a "tell it to the judge" move comes up.