Big Headed Beginners! [Archive] - Ceroc Scotland Forum

Donna

13th-February-2006, 01:56 PM

Cruella

13th-February-2006, 02:12 PM

Yep come across this bloke (or his many clones:D ) before. I think it's best to just grin at him and let him say his piece, it can be quite entertaining.

LMC

13th-February-2006, 02:26 PM

"I was just following your lead" :innocent:

Donna

13th-February-2006, 02:28 PM

Yep come across this bloke (or his many clones:D ) before.

:rofl:

I think it's best to just grin at him and let him say his piece, it can be quite entertaining.

It can be entertaining sometimes but when they are constantly doing it and start irritating a lot of people in the class they start to become extremely annoying and then people try to avoid dancing with them.

I'm wondering if it might be a slight mental problem too. He gives women very strange looks....like he is undressing you with his eyes. Very very creepy and I have a lot of my mates coming up to me saying exactly the same thing. He also passed a comment on to one woman there (just out of the blue) he said, 'Do you know that most men prefer oral to real sex!!:eek: )

When I asked if she had put a complaint in, she said she'd rather leave it for now...but if it's left for too long, somebody like that can do something very serious if allowed to get away with it.

Aleks

13th-February-2006, 02:34 PM

LMC

13th-February-2006, 02:37 PM

Sounds to me like he has got problems with his social skills.

If he has, then he needs to learn what is and isn't appropriate. Unfortunately, this won't be possible if no-one ever says anything - either by speaking to the venue managers or to him directly.

Cruella

13th-February-2006, 02:42 PM

It can be entertaining sometimes but when they are constantly doing it and start irritating a lot of people in the class they start to become extremely annoying and then people try to avoid dancing with them.
I know what you mean, but eventually he'll annoy so many ladies that he'll have no one to dance with. So then he'll probably give up MJ.

I'm wondering if it might be a slight mental problem too. He gives women very strange looks....like he is undressing you with his eyes. Very very creepy and I have a lot of my mates coming up to me saying exactly the same thing. He also passed a comment on to one woman there (just out of the blue) he said, 'Do you know that most men prefer oral to real sex!!:eek: )
Blimey he does sound rather creepy,

When I asked if she had put a complaint in, she said she'd rather leave it for now...but if it's left for too long, somebody like that can do something very serious if allowed to get away with it.
You can't really put a complaint in about his strange looks but i don't think a comment like the one above is appropriate and i think i would make the Venue Manager aware of how he's making the ladies feel. Even if it's just so that the staff can keep an eye on him.

Donna

13th-February-2006, 02:52 PM

I know what you mean, but eventually he'll annoy so many ladies that he'll have no one to dance with. So then he'll probably give up MJ.

I hope so! Coming to think of it, it might be my fault! After I had one dance with him, for a beginner, he was doing quite well and so I told him that....oops! Big mistake!:blush:

Blimey he does sound rather creepy

He is a complete odd ball! We had a freestyle night on Fri at Wrexham and his eye's (or his eye shall I say...em, one turns in) followed me from one side of the hall to the other. OOooeerrrr shiver shiver!

You can't really put a complaint in about his strange looks but i don't think a comment like the one above is appropriate and i think i would make the Venue Manager aware of how he's making the ladies feel. Even if it's just so that the staff can keep an eye on him.[/QUOTE]

Ya right there. I think I'll be the first to put a complaint in about him as I'm afraid he will do something very disturbing to a member of the class.

Donna

13th-February-2006, 02:56 PM

stewart38

13th-February-2006, 03:33 PM

drathzel

13th-February-2006, 03:44 PM

I'd be interested to know how many people have come across beginners who think that after just a few weeks of trying MJ, they are much better than anyone else and are trying to tell those who ARE experienced 'HOW TO DANCE!':eek:

I remember dancing with a female who had only been dancing a few weeks anyway, i said to her as we were dancing "do you remember last weeks moves" (pretty much standard patter for me when i am dancing with beginners) to which she replied "I know all the moves"...hmmm! Me thinks maybe not! I just smiled and carried on!

Donna

13th-February-2006, 03:48 PM

I remember dancing with a female who had only been dancing a few weeks anyway, i said to her as we were dancing "do you remember last weeks moves" (pretty much standard patter for me when i am dancing with beginners) to which she replied "I know all the moves"...hmmm! Me thinks maybe not! I just smiled and carried on!

Oh dear! :rolleyes: There is not a lot you can say though is there? If you were to tell her that she doesn't know all the moves at all, they would get offended and then you would lose one. Did the right thing just carrying on.

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)

13th-February-2006, 04:27 PM

This too is one of my pet hates! Seen a few of them in my time, luckily there haven't been that many.

Little Monkey

13th-February-2006, 04:40 PM

Yup, I've come across many dancers like this over the years! Particularly when taxiing And I've been told by beginners (after they've failed to lead me into whatever move it was they tried to lead) "You're meant to do........", and of course stopping in the middle of the dance floor to tell me how I didn't do the first move or catapult or whatever beginners move wrong! :rofl:

Sometimes I just smile. If I feel like a wee :devil: , I will make sure to grab an experienced dancer for the next track, and proceed to dance in a spot on the dancefloor where the beginnner in question can't fail to see me...:innocent:

Or I'll tell the poor man how you're actually meant to lead the move, and explain to him why I couldn't follow his lead. :rolleyes:

fletch

13th-February-2006, 04:41 PM

It can be entertaining sometimes but when they are constantly doing it and start irritating a lot of people in the class they start to become extremely annoying and then people try to avoid dancing with them.

I'm wondering if it might be a slight mental problem too. He gives women very strange looks....like he is undressing you with his eyes. Very very creepy and I have a lot of my mates coming up to me saying exactly the same thing. He also passed a comment on to one woman there (just out of the blue) he said, 'Do you know that most men prefer oral to real sex!!:eek: )

When I asked if she had put a complaint in, she said she'd rather leave it for now...but if it's left for too long, somebody like that can do something very serious if allowed to get away with it.

oooooo Donna, do I know him:confused:

I love blokes like him:D let me at him :rolleyes:

point him out if we are all in the same venue together, i'll scare him to death.:devil:

perhaps we should try double trouble that will stop him:rofl:

Little Em

13th-February-2006, 04:41 PM

I remember dancing with a female who had only been dancing a few weeks anyway, i said to her as we were dancing "do you remember last weeks moves" (pretty much standard patter for me when i am dancing with beginners) to which she replied "I know all the moves"...hmmm! Me thinks maybe not! I just smiled and carried on!

possible reply : 'wow you know all 600* moves... your good.:devil:

*just a figure peeps, just a figure!!!

:flower:
or.... you could smile n carry on..

Cruella

13th-February-2006, 04:43 PM

drathzel

13th-February-2006, 08:14 PM

possible reply : 'wow you know all 600* moves... your good.:devil:

*just a figure peeps, just a figure!!!

:flower:
or.... you could smile n carry on..

It was soooo tempting!:blush:

Andreas

13th-February-2006, 08:30 PM

I'd be interested to know how many people have come across beginners who think that after just a few weeks of trying MJ, they are much better than anyone else and are trying to tell those who ARE experienced 'HOW TO DANCE!':eek:
:rofl:
I had a few ladies trying to pull that one on me in NZ at some point. The sad thing about it is not so much that they think they are great dancers, it is more that they think they are right. Sometimes they are (from a beginners perspective) and sometimes they are not. Essentially they are just parrotting (?) what the teacher told them. If they are generally wrong then it could mean that either the teacher taught them the wrong thing or they just didn't understand it. In other cases a more advanced dancer may just have the liberty to change certain things and deviate from the book (not that we would EVER do that :devil: ). It'd naturally confuse the living day out of them and they are right trying to correct such bad manners. But either way, they can be quite obnoxious, can't they? :rofl:

Feelingpink

14th-February-2006, 12:30 AM

oooooo Donna, do I know him:confused:

I love blokes like him:D let me at him :rolleyes:

point him out if we are all in the same venue together, i'll scare him to death.:devil:

perhaps we should try double trouble that will stop him:rofl:How fantastic! You could undress him with YOUR eyes ... or become his own personal stalker :blush: Or howsabout you offer to take him to the next available blues workshop as your fixed partner :devil:

TheTramp

14th-February-2006, 12:38 AM

Or howsabout you offer to take him to the next available blues workshop as your fixed partner :devil:
And what happens when he says yes please? :rolleyes:

Feelingpink

14th-February-2006, 12:41 AM

And what happens when he says yes please? :rolleyes:I'm assuming that Fletch will have the foresight to pack a 'spare' partner for when he can't handle the pace.

ducasi

14th-February-2006, 01:17 AM

Om a serious note i would 'suggest' a beginner is someone who has been dancing less then a year Cool! Finally out of beginner-dom in just over a week's time! :cool:

(I would "suggest" that a beginner is someone who's just beginning. :))

Minnie M

14th-February-2006, 01:48 AM

How about the complete reverse .....

Tonight I was at a new class of beginners (week 5 of a course) - 40's style dancing - I was helping on the door.

When the freestyle came I asked a few of the men to dance. For only 5 lessons I was very impressed. So when I asked the next guy to dance I commented on how well he was dancing for only 5 weeks .... he replied

I have been dancing for THREE YEARS :angry: ............ oh dear :blush: :really: :tears:

Donna

14th-February-2006, 12:25 PM

Donna

14th-February-2006, 12:26 PM

possible reply : 'wow you know all 600* moves... your good.:devil:

*just a figure peeps, just a figure!!!

:flower:
or.... you could smile n carry on..

Nah I'd rather the second option.:D If he starts with me that is, I will say just that. Thanks littlemc-central.

Little Em

14th-February-2006, 01:10 PM

Nah I'd rather the second option.:D If he starts with me that is, I will say just that. Thanks littlemc-central.

:D no problemo!

Em x

Asif

14th-February-2006, 01:34 PM

I'd be interested to know how many people have come across beginners who think that after just a few weeks of trying MJ, they are much better than anyone else and are trying to tell those who ARE experienced 'HOW TO DANCE!':eek:

There is this one guy (very strange though) who, after dancing for just 5 weeks, thinks he is ABSOLUTELY the best MJ in the UK! He has never danced before in his life. I watch him dancing with some of the experienced ones, and he stops in the middle of a track trying to tell them that they did wrong and how it should be done. I find this extremely annoying and even worse, nobody seems to be complaining to the guy who runs the venue about him!
Males are less likely to be in this position as females are (since we are the ones supposedly doing the leading). However, i do remember once being given a bit of a telling off once by a TAXI DANCER (i am one too but i would never act like this). I went to a venue i had never been to before (i didn't know anyone there). During the lesson the taxi dancer kept "correcting" my hand hold, body position, etc, and made me fell like a total incompetent. At the end she commented that i "wasn't bad but needed working on". Needless to say, i just smiled and didn't say anything. We happened to get partnered a couple more times and the same thing happened.

At the end of the class, i asked the female teacher for a dance. And it was great! This other taxi dancer couldn't believe it so came and asked me for a dance and i obliged .... she was terrible (paid more attention on what she should be doing instead of actually following me). For the rest of the evening, i just avoided her.

Another example - female friend felt uneasy turning down a guy who smelt of beer and was being a bit gropey. When i asked her to dance, she said No (even though she wanted to) because she has just turned down this other guy with an "excuse" that she was tired. I got her to get up and dance with me. I told her that she had every right to refuse him but shouldn't feel like she can't dance with anyone else now.

Moral of the story - if you dance with anyone who thinks they know better and are just annoying/offending/upsetting you, smile and finish off the dance. As you are now better informed of them, you can politey refuse next time. If you accept a dance, you are now giving your "permission" for their behaviour. If you know them well enough or think they will be able to take it, you could even then tell them WHY you are refusing a dance.

Asif

14th-February-2006, 01:39 PM

possible reply : 'wow you know all 600* moves... your good.:devil:
What.....ONLY 600!! :rolleyes:

Can i come up to your venue and keep correcting what you do when you are teaching then?? :whistle:

Little Em

14th-February-2006, 01:42 PM

What.....ONLY 600!! :rolleyes:

Can i come up to your venue and keep correcting what you do when you are teaching then?? :whistle:

oh your a bad 'un :devil:

if that wht it takes to get you into the Rugby venue then yes :rofl:

Cruella

14th-February-2006, 01:54 PM

oh your a bad 'un :devil:

if that wht it takes to get you into the Rugby venue then yes :rofl:
Perhaps you two could sit and discuss the moves whilst nursing your injuries on saturday. Even better would be to watch you dancing together avoiding each others bad shoulders. :D

timbp

14th-February-2006, 01:58 PM

I'd be interested to know how many people have come across beginners who think that after just a few weeks of trying MJ, they are much better than anyone else and are trying to tell those who ARE experienced 'HOW TO DANCE!':eek:

I haven't had this problem. But then, I've never been to a venue where I'm a complete stranger (except when I was just beginning, but that doesn't count for this).

However, in class I tend to relax my arm while the teacher is talking -- zero tension. I take up the tension just before we start the walk through or dance -- as we're now taught not to use the 'C' to start, I find going from no tension to dance tension is a great signal for starting. (Of course, in freestyle, I just lead the lady onto the floor and start dancing.)

I've had several beginners comment on my lack of tension, and repeat to me what the teacher has said about tension. But I rather like that, as it tells me they can at least recognise the difference between tension and no tension, and I tend to look for them first in freestyle. The girls who don't comment are likely to have spaghetti arms.

Interestingly, there is one woman who has been dancing longer than I, and is a better dancer, but she doesn't seem to have realised that I only take up the tension just before I start the walk through or dance. Every time, she comments or otherwise indicates that I have insufficient tension; then the music starts, I provide tension, we dance. I think she believes I am providing tension because she's commented, not because I'm about to start dancing.

Lynn

14th-February-2006, 02:04 PM

So when I asked the next guy to dance I commented on how well he was dancing for only 5 weeks .... he replied

I have been dancing for THREE YEARS :angry: ............ oh dear :blush: :really: :tears:Oops! :rofl: And you were only trying to be encouraging. :flower:

Donna

14th-February-2006, 02:24 PM

However, i do remember once being given a bit of a telling off once by a TAXI DANCER (i am one too but i would never act like this). I went to a venue i had never been to before (i didn't know anyone there). During the lesson the taxi dancer kept "correcting" my hand hold, body position, etc, and made me fell like a total incompetent.

Hand hold -yes as she may have felt uncomfortable with the way you were doing it or maybe it's just that you were 'at the time' doing it differently to others who she has danced with.

Body positioning -nope. This is taking it a bit too far as it's going into too much depth and is only something that is normally taught at private lessons or workshops.

Going into detail with someone who has just started dancing can put them off, as it's hard enough for them trying to focus on dancing moves without having to think of body tension or body positioning. It can make it appear difficult and so they will without a doubt lose interest and never come back. But, for a beginner who has never danced before in his/her life telling someone how this and that should be done is not on! It's only because they can't lead and are getting frustrated that they are using these excuses to hide their embarrassment.

Like little monkey said..

Sometimes I just smile. If I feel like a wee , I will make sure to grab an experienced dancer for the next track, and proceed to dance in a spot on the dancefloor where the beginnner in question can't fail to see me...

is something I would do to prove that they are wrong.

At the end she commented that i "wasn't bad but needed working on". Needless to say, i just smiled and didn't say anything. We happened to get partnered a couple more times and the same thing happened.

Were you an experienced dancer at the time? If so..:eek: Oooh the cheek of it!:angry:

At the end of the class, i asked the female teacher for a dance. And it was great! This other taxi dancer couldn't believe it so came and asked me for a dance and i obliged .... she was terrible (paid more attention on what she should be doing instead of actually following me).

Ok sorry didn't see this bit. so..:eek: Ah another self centred dancer who might as well be dancing around a pole. :rofl:

For the rest of the evening, i just avoided her.

Good on you!

Petal

14th-February-2006, 02:57 PM

Hand hold -yes as she may have felt uncomfortable with the way you were doing it or maybe it's just that you were 'at the time' doing it differently to others who she has danced with.

Body positioning -nope. This is taking it a bit too far as it's going into too much depth and is only something that is normally taught at private lessons or workshops.

Going into detail with someone who has just started dancing can put them off, as it's hard enough for them trying to focus on dancing moves without having to think of body tension or body positioning. It can make it appear difficult and so they will without a doubt lose interest and never come back. But, for a beginner who has never danced before in his/her life telling someone how this and that should be done is not on! It's only because they can't lead and are getting frustrated that they are using these excuses to hide their embarrassment.

If i try to give beginners advice i try to do it in a positive way, not by criticising them. Like in life if i can't say anything nice i won't say anything at all.

.......but i was recently told by a beginner that i needed a really really strong lead and i didn't dance to the beat; to say i was shocked is an understatement. I know i'm intermediate dancer but i've never had this said to me in the three years i've been dancing until now.:angry:

But like others i'm planning to address this with the person very soon.:rolleyes:

i

TheTramp

14th-February-2006, 03:00 PM

.......but i was recently told by a beginner that i needed a really really strong lead and i didn't dance to the beat;

It's amazing just how wrong some people can be.... :hug:

Donna

14th-February-2006, 03:00 PM

If i try to give beginners advice i try to do it in a positive way, not by criticising them. Like in life if i can't say anything nice i won't say anything at all.

.......but i was recently told by a beginner that i needed a really really strong lead and i didn't dance to the beat; to say i was shocked is an understatement. I know i'm intermediate dancer but i've never had this said to me in the three years i've been dancing until now.:angry:

But like others i'm planning to address this with the person very soon.:rolleyes:

Well he obviously doesn't know what rhythm is then does he?!

I'd have said something there and then. Just don't bother with him next time. I'm sure he'll do it to others yet and will get more stick.

Petal

14th-February-2006, 03:18 PM

Well he obviously doesn't know what rhythm is then does he?!

I'd have said something there and then. Just don't bother with him next time. I'm sure he'll do it to others yet and will get more stick.

I know he's done it once before, and he had the lady in tears.:mad:

Petal

14th-February-2006, 03:23 PM

It's amazing just how wrong some people can be.... :hug:

:kiss: :hug:

JamesGeary

14th-February-2006, 07:29 PM

I've only ever gotten unsolicited advice from beginners.

Good dancer never seem to say anything. They usually just dance for a couple seconds the way I was dancing, then dance the way they think I should dance.

Donna

14th-February-2006, 07:30 PM

Ste

15th-February-2006, 02:09 PM

There is this one guy (very strange though) who, after dancing for just 5 weeks, thinks he is ABSOLUTELY the best MJ in the UK! He has never danced before in his life. I watch him dancing with some of the experienced ones, and he stops in the middle of a track trying to tell them that they did wrong and how it should be done. I find this extremely annoying and even worse, nobody seems to be complaining to the guy who runs the venue about him!

Donna, I've told you not to comment on my dancing on this forum!!!

Ste

15th-February-2006, 02:12 PM

[QUOTE=Donna]
I'm wondering if it might be a slight mental problem too. He gives women very strange looks....like he is undressing you with his eyes. Very very creepy and I have a lot of my mates coming up to me saying exactly the same thing. He also passed a comment on to one woman there (just out of the blue) he said, 'Do you know that most men prefer oral to real sex!!:eek: )

QUOTE]

Oopps! Sorry, just realised you weren't talking about me at all! It was "that man" of the average height, short hair, forties, non descript.....that one!

Donna

15th-February-2006, 02:16 PM

Oopps! Sorry, just realised you weren't talking about me at all! It was "that man" of the average height, short hair, forties, non descript.....that one![/QUOTE]

Well hello there monkey man! :rofl: :blush:

Description matches you perfectly. No somethings missing.
He was **** eyed. :rofl: Not you then!

Andybroom

15th-February-2006, 10:18 PM

He sounds quite an oddball, but getting back to his 'teaching' of moves...

In 3 years of taxi-ing I've noticed this quite often - the lead expecting the follow to dance exactly as the move was taught in the class and becoming exasperated when it's not like that.

Maybe you could ask whoever taxis that night to mention that 'dancing' is different to 'class' and to expect deviation by followers (some of us are more deviant than others too :wink: )?

Whilst this guy sounds (as you say) a bit of an oddball in other respects, I'm a bit interested in why (assuming that the lead has led what was taught in class) you would expect the follow to do something other than follow him?

Obviously if a beginner lead does (or leads) the move incorrectly the follower might have a problem in deciding what to do and a fairly advanced lead might actually decide to do a move differently to the way it's just been taught, but neither of those are quite the same thing.

Personally I can quite understand someone getting exasperated if the follow does something different to what he's lead.

(non dancing deviations excepted, of course! :whistle: )

Andy

Andybroom

15th-February-2006, 10:26 PM

Males are less likely to be in this position as females are (since we are the ones supposedly doing the leading). However, i do remember once being given a bit of a telling off once by a TAXI DANCER (i am one too but i would never act like this). I went to a venue i had never been to before (i didn't know anyone there). During the lesson the taxi dancer kept "correcting" my hand hold, body position, etc, and made me fell like a total incompetent. At the end she commented that i "wasn't bad but needed working on". Needless to say, i just smiled and didn't say anything. We happened to get partnered a couple more times and the same thing happened.

I must admit I have never been to a class with taxi dancers (I live in a non-ceroc area) but I have to say I'm a bit leery of the idea - especially outside of a beginners class. You story is why I'm leery about the theory - correcting someone's dancing is only OK if the taxi (or whoever) is actually right!

Andy

Donna

16th-February-2006, 11:09 AM

You story is why I'm leery about the theory - correcting someone's dancing is only OK if the taxi (or whoever) is actually right!

And they're not always. I think some of the taxi dancers are mainly on intermediate level and are still sometimes unsure of some things but show them to a beginner the way they think it's done.

Bop

16th-February-2006, 11:19 AM

And they're not always. I think some of the taxi dancers are mainly on intermediate level and are still sometimes unsure of some things but show them to a beginner the way they think it's done.

When I taxied I always thought the most important bit was to encourage the beginners to keep coming - teach a little along the way, but mostly encourage them to get on the floor and try dancing.

I do remember a few who thought they were fantastic by week two, but weren't quite there (yet)?

I must say I was only an intermediate when I first taxied and I hope I wasn't so arrogant as to correct more experienced dancers?

Bop

TiggsTours

16th-February-2006, 11:21 AM

"I was just following your lead" :innocent:
More to the point:

"I was just following your lead, and the reason I did this is because, from a follower's perspective, this is what your lead said to me, if you want me to turn the right way on this move you need to indicate it clearly to me by leading it this way, then I will be able to follow it correctly, the way you led it was quite difficult for me to follow what you wanted me to do. You may find other people have done what you expect, purely because they are leading themselves, not following your lead.

How about I show you the difference in what you did, and the way it needs to be led? I can lead you through that move, if you're prepared to try following it, you should be able to feel the difference quite easily, would you like me to help you so you can get it right in future? You can't expect to be able to lead everything perfectly when you haven't been dancing that long, it will come with time, and experience, and by listening to the advice of more experienced dancers"

That usually shuts them up, and ensures they are prepared to listen to your advice.

Donna

16th-February-2006, 11:24 AM

More to the point:

"I was just following your lead, and the reason I did this is because, from a follower's perspective, this is what your lead said to me, if you want me to turn the right way on this move you need to indicate it clearly to me by leading it this way, then I will be able to follow it correctly, the way you led it was quite difficult for me to follow what you wanted me to do. You may find other people have done what you expect, purely because they are leading themselves, not following your lead.

How about I show you the difference in what you did, and the way it needs to be led? I can lead you through that move, if you're prepared to try following it, you should be able to feel the difference quite easily, would you like me to help you so you can get it right in future? You can't expect to be able to lead everything perfectly when you haven't been dancing that long, it will come with time, and experience, and by listening to the advice of more experienced dancers"

That usually shuts them up, and ensures they are prepared to listen to your advice.

Nice one TT!!

LMC

16th-February-2006, 11:33 AM

More to the point:

~ snip - it's only just up there ~
:yeah: - absolutely. But only if I'm taxi-ing, or if I'm asked. Otherwise, to be honest, I can't really be bothered to explain all that (plus my throat won't hold up to talking too much over loud music - if a beginner wants to get into lengthy discussion, I tend to ask them to come out to the lobby with me so we don't have to yell at each other!)

And unless they are hurting me (thumbs or yanking) I tend not to volunteer "teaching style" comments to non-beginners during freestyle.

Donna

16th-February-2006, 11:41 AM

my throat won't hold up to talking too much over loud music - if a beginner wants to get into lengthy discussion, I tend to ask them to come out to the lobby with me so we don't have to yell at each other!)

Neither does mine! There is nothing worse than someone wanting to go into a lengthy discussion on the dance floor. It makes me feel awkward as I know people around you hate it (I'm one of them). I try and slowly walk to the edge of the dance floor.. and they eventually start following me.

And unless they are hurting me (thumbs or yanking) I tend not to volunteer "teaching style" comments to non-beginners during freestyle.[/QUOTE]

:tears: Especially after that? No way. Not unless you want your joints pulling out of place.

timbp

16th-February-2006, 11:50 AM

I was just following your lead, and the reason I did this is because, from a follower's perspective, this is what your lead said to me, if you want me to turn the right way on this move you need to indicate it clearly to me by leading it this way, then I will be able to follow it correctly, the way you led it was quite difficult for me to follow what you wanted me to do.
Is your name Clare, and do you teach tango in Sydney?

That is almost word for word what I was told at one point in my tango class last night.

However, I've had 2 years of ceroc, and some salsa in during that time. This was my third tango class. If it had been my third dance class, I doubt I would have kept going (I've paid for an 8 week tango course; I would probably have finished the course and never come back).

I don't know how bad I was at my third ceroc class (which was my third dance class). But I do know that at about 10 months I went back to a venue I hadn't been to for a while (although I'd gone there a lot when I started). After one dance, the girl said, "I enjoyed that. I remember how bad you were when you started." So I suspect I was really bad at my third ceroc class.

That's one thing I really like about ceroc. I felt welcome. Women were williing to dance with me from the first lesson. Nobody told me how bad I was until I was well past that stage.

I started dancing because of a girlfriend; we often went to parties where people had done ceroc, and my girlfriend would dance with them. She hadn't done ceroc, but had done lots of jazz ballet and "could follow anything". I realised that if I ever wanted to dance with her, I had to learn how. So I tried ceroc. My intention was to learn just enough to get out on the dance floor with her (I thought of about 6-8 classes). Two years later, I have no idea what she's doing. I'm addicted to ceroc, and now enjoying Argentine tango.
I picked ceroc as that's what the guys were leading at the parties we went to (and that's what the music was). If salsa had been the scene, I would probably have done an 8 week course and stopped classes, believing I knew enough to dance with her at parties. If it had been tango, I would have immediately known no woman is worth this effort and dropped out of the classes, and I would never have learnt that the dance is worth the effort (and [I hope] the women like the dancers).

LMC

16th-February-2006, 11:59 AM

And unless they are hurting me (thumbs or yanking) I tend not to volunteer "teaching style" comments to non-beginners during freestyle.
:tears: Especially after that? No way. Not unless you want your joints pulling out of place.
Eh?

What I meant was, if someone is hurting me, then I *will* say so - and if they are not a beginner, I'm pathetic too, I really wail "ow" :rofl: - best feedback possible IMO :innocent: Unfortunately, I recently had a genuine "OW" moment with a first-timer leading a shoulder drop who didn't wait for me to finish turning before he started his turn - and that really did hurt. I really squeaked before I recovered and explained (nicely, hope I didn't put him off altogether :blush: )

stewart38

16th-February-2006, 11:59 AM

Is your name Clare, and do you teach tango in Sydney?

If it is, hats of to the girl she must have one hell of an exhausting schedule :whistle:

Donna

16th-February-2006, 11:59 AM

Nobody told me how bad I was until I was well past that stage.

So if nobody was to comment now, you'd be worried yep?

So I tried ceroc. My intention was to learn just enough to get out on the dance floor with her (I thought of about 6-8 classes). Two years later, I have no idea what she's doing. I'm addicted to ceroc, and now enjoying Argentine tango.

This proves what I was saying earlier on this thread. People who really want to get into dancing, but have never danced before, turn to something that is easy and fun to learn, just as a taster. Ceroc I think is most probably the only form of partner dancing that provides this and so it is the best way to learn a few moves and then your follow and lead skills. Once experienced enough, people then feel ready to move onto something more challenging. If they know that ceroc is not for them, then they will quit dancing altogether.

timbp

16th-February-2006, 12:25 PM

So if nobody was to comment now, you'd be worried yep?

Probably. The comments I do get now (for ceroc) are all positive, so if I stopped getting comments I guess it would mean I'd really gone bad.

And if I got a negative comment from someone I respected as a dancer (not from a big headed beginner), I would be shattered. All self-respect lost. Probably suicidal. I might even stop going to ceroc classes.

TiggsTours

16th-February-2006, 12:30 PM

Is your name Clare, and do you teach tango in Sydney?

No, and erm, no.

My name's Amanda, and I live in London.

Donna

16th-February-2006, 12:30 PM

Probably. The comments I do get now (for ceroc) are all positive, so if I stopped getting comments I guess it would mean I'd really gone bad.

And if I got a negative comment from someone I respected as a dancer (not from a big headed beginner), I would be shattered. All self-respect lost. Probably suicidal. I might even stop going to ceroc classes.

Well living in Australia and the standard of dancing being quite high, I'm sure you are good and I would most probably say the same if I seen you dance!

I think I'd feel the same way if I had a negative comment from someone who I respected as a dancer too. Mind you, I wouldn't be totally shattered because I would take their advice and use that to help me improve more. Don't give up if anybody was to do this as they would only be trying to help, not criticise.

TiggsTours

16th-February-2006, 12:37 PM

Well living in Australia and the standard of dancing being quite high, I'm sure you are good and I would most probably say the same if I seen you dance!

I think I'd feel the same way if I had a negative comment from someone who I respected as a dancer too. Mind you, I wouldn't be totally shattered because I would take their advice and use that to help me improve more. Don't give up if anybody was to do this as they would only be trying to help, not criticise.
:yeah:
Trust me, there was nothing negative about my comment, the way I see it, as a lead, do you want your partner to do what you want her to do because she's danced with you before, and you showed her what to do then, or because you led it so well and so smoothly that she followed without any problem at all?

Also, I have learnt many styles of dance over the last 9 years, just because you know what to do in 1 style, doesn't mean you can instantly lead (or follow) anything, every time you start a new style of dance, you have to remember that, no matter how long you've been dancing Ceroc, in that style of dance you are still a beginner, and listening to those experienced dancers who are nice enough to try to help you, will only improve your dancing. I always take it as a compliment, if somebody is willing to help me with learning something new, they can obviously see I have the potential to be good, or else they'd just write me off as a lost cause, and grin and bear it.

Donna

16th-February-2006, 12:46 PM

Also, I have learnt many styles of dance over the last 9 years, just because you know what to do in 1 style, doesn't mean you can instantly lead (or follow) anything, every time you start a new style of dance, you have to remember that, no matter how long you've been dancing Ceroc, in that style of dance you are still a beginner, and listening to those experienced dancers who are nice enough to try to help you, will only improve your dancing.

EXACTEMENT TT! I wouldn't want to be classed as a 'Big Headed Beginner' at all! I would be so embarrassed to say I know what I am doing even as a joke!

I just think Ceroc helps you to picking up other styles quicker but even so, you are still a beginner if you have been doing it less that one year...no matter how good you become. It would normally take a few years to become as hot as the experienced ones out there!

TiggsTours

16th-February-2006, 01:11 PM

EXACTEMENT TT! I wouldn't want to be classed as a 'Big Headed Beginner' at all! I would be so embarrassed to say I know what I am doing even as a joke!

I just think Ceroc helps you to picking up other styles quicker but even so, you are still a beginner if you have been doing it less that one year...no matter how good you become. It would normally take a few years to become as hot as the experienced ones out there!
And even the most experienced dancers don't know everything, everyone gets it wrong from time to time, and we all have those nightmare moves that we can just never get quite right!

Donna

16th-February-2006, 01:28 PM

And even the most experienced dancers don't know everything, everyone gets it wrong from time to time, and we all have those nightmare moves that we can just never get quite right!

That's how you learn better is from making mistakes. It's just practice practice practice and blummin practice.

stewart38

16th-February-2006, 04:31 PM

That's how you learn better is from making mistakes. It's just practice practice practice and blummin practice.

Then if your still no good , give up ?? :sad:

Ste

16th-February-2006, 08:07 PM

I remember that one day I decided to help the beginners refresher class.

I went down and a lady started to lecture me about how to do a particular move. I don't know whether she thought i had just turned up from my illegal digs in a CHinese takeaway and had decided to improve my English or what. I think I just giggled.

A few weeks later I think I won my second comp.

I still can't do those beginner's moves right and usually prefer beginner's classes to intermediate!!!!

Minnie M

16th-February-2006, 08:08 PM

MartinHarper

17th-February-2006, 12:53 AM

I'd be interested to know how many people have come across beginners who think that after just a few weeks of trying MJ, they are much better than anyone else and are trying to tell those who ARE experienced 'HOW TO DANCE!':eek:

Beginners make all kinds of mistakes. One common mistake they can make is trying to tell others how to dance, or being perceived to be telling others how to dance. Another common mistake is not dancing to the beat of the music.

Donna

17th-February-2006, 02:57 PM

jacksondonut

17th-February-2006, 03:41 PM

Just looking back over the last eight/nine years and thinking that I have still so much to learn! On the rare occasion I pluck up the courage to ask a beginner to dance I am filled with I think 'Fear'....:eek:

The reason being partly because Its usually a stranger, (I tend to stick to the people I know) and partly I fear being injured and manhandled (I had my shoulder muscle damaged in the early days)... :sad:

I do ask a beginner every now and again though because I remember how it felt, not knowing anyone and being too shy to ask... sometimes, I have been pleasantly surprised and other times a bit shook up.. nevertheless, we all started somewhere... I am just grateful to those who befriended me and took the time to show me the wonderful world of dancing..:flower:

Answering the 'big-headed beginner' question... I often find that I come across people, who have been dancing a fair while, think they have got it sussed and continue to do it 'their way', which, I feel maybe is why they havent progressed from 'beginner' status.. It usually turns into a bit of a wrestling match..lol.. Most of the real 'beginners' I have met are too frightened of making mistakes to be 'big headed'.. I am sure my time will come though and I will eat my words sometime in the future.. :rofl:

Interesting subject.
:cheers:

Donna

21st-February-2006, 05:08 PM

Just looking back over the last eight/nine years and thinking that I have still so much to learn! On the rare occasion I pluck up the courage to ask a beginner to dance I am filled with I think 'Fear'....:eek:

And your not the only one! Since I had my shoulder pulled and my fingers crushed to bits, I'm filled with fear when dancing with SOME beginners. Especially the one I've been talking about too!! :eek:

nevertheless, we all started somewhere...

That's true! They don't learn as much unless they dance with someone who is more experienced. But imagine someone you remember dancing with who only started a few weeks ago, thinking that they are now better than you and telling YOU what to do! How insulting!

TheTramp

21st-February-2006, 05:20 PM

That's true! They don't learn as much unless they dance with someone who is more experienced. But imagine someone you remember dancing with who only started a few weeks ago, thinking that they are now better than you and telling YOU what to do! How insulting!

Uh huh. It's insulting. But it's scary when they're right :whistle:

Donna

21st-February-2006, 05:23 PM

Uh huh. It's insulting. But it's scary when they're right :whistle:

hmmm. Tell me about this experience you've had with a big headed then.:nice:

Gadget

22nd-February-2006, 01:24 AM

But imagine someone you remember dancing with who only started a few weeks ago, thinking that they are now better than you and telling YOU what to do! How insulting!Insulting? Not at all. I would be eager to hear their opinions:
It's a partner dance - I am dancing with them as my partner - if I am doing something that makes it harder for them to follow or my lead isn't clear enough in what I want them to do, then I would like to know so that I can (try to) fix it.

Intermediate & improver dancers will automatically correct and interperate what you lead to match what they expect to be led into. Beginners won't (at least to the same degree). I get better feedback and input from them than almost anyone else.

{PS anyone else find it difficult to pick flaws in your partner's dancing? Any time I try, I end up discovering more stuff wrong with mine :tears:}

Donna

22nd-February-2006, 12:11 PM

It's a partner dance - I am dancing with them as my partner - if I am doing something that makes it harder for them to follow or my lead isn't clear enough in what I want them to do, then I would like to know so that I can (try to) fix it.

I see what you mean. It may not even be your lead though especially if others can follow and this one person is unable to. It may be because they are finding it difficult and cannot follow and what I'm getting at is that some can't admit to that,and so try telling an experienced dancer how it should have been done.

ducasi

22nd-February-2006, 01:46 PM

{PS anyone else find it difficult to pick flaws in your partner's dancing? Any time I try, I end up discovering more stuff wrong with mine :tears:} I think this is a good point. As you get better it's easier to see how mistakes and problems are your fault.

And when you're dancing with beginners, flaws in your leading are much more likely to cause problems, so a beginner follower may actually be in a better position to criticise than those who have learnt how to cope with a poor lead.

I suspect the reverse is true – a beginner lead may be able to stumble over problems in your following that a experienced dancer would be able to cope with better.

Tazmanian Devil

22nd-February-2006, 02:12 PM

Yep come across this bloke (or his many clones:D ) before. I think it's best to just grin at him and let him say his piece, it can be quite entertaining.
:yeah:
There is always one or two beginners that think they know it all after just a few weeks, at times I find it quite funny as I have been dancing for 4 years and still don't think I know anywhere near it all. But other times when the particular person wether it be male/female really hasn't got a clue let alone the concept it can be quite annoying.
We had one guy like this at welling and he actually went out of his way to tell other beginners where they were going wrong. The problem being they weren't going wrong at all he was :eek:

Gadget

22nd-February-2006, 02:53 PM

I see what you mean. It may not even be your lead though especially if others can follow and this one person is unable to.It may. But if I can improve for this person, then isn't that improvement going to make dancing with other followers better? I can try to understand what they get from my lead and what they expect to be getting from my lead. From this I can try to work out what to do in order to get them to do what I want.

It may be because they are finding it difficult and cannot follow and what I'm getting at is that some can't admit to that,and so try telling an experienced dancer how it should have been done.If they can't follow it, there are generally two options: I have not led it properly or I have miss-judged them and should not have lead the move in the first place.

The only thing they are doing by telling me "how it should be done" is telling me how they expect to be led through the move. I can either show them that there may be a better way, or addapt my lead so that it matches. {...and then bleed it into the "better way" :wink:}

Somehow I think that what most people are refering to here are big headed beginner LEADS... and this is a diffeent matter.

Donna

23rd-February-2006, 02:23 PM

It may. But if I can improve for this person, then isn't that improvement going to make dancing with other followers better?

It all depends. See, if you lead it the way they may find comfortable with, then that might be totally wrong and therefore will not work with others. There should only be one way to lead so that everybody can follow. It this one person struggles to follow a move that everybody else can and tries telling you how it should be done..then that's just their opinion. It will be almost like they are teaching themselves to be lead into something that would only feel right when dancing with you. When she starts dancing with people, she will still struggle. Does that mean that everybody needs to improve on their lead?

babycass77

23rd-February-2006, 04:28 PM

Hi folks

I am definitely what you'd call a "beginner" as far as ceroc goes, though I am experienced at dancing other styles so I found this quite an interesting thread. It got me thinking about ceroc and what it means to be a beginner etc etc etc.

Yes I am an absolute beginner (I have been to 6 classes now plus the beach ballroom night.) And whilst I would never ever dream of telling anyone how they should dance or do a particular move; I still think that as a complete beginner you can tell who the better dancers are. There are some men whom I have danced with who give very clear signals and with whom it is clear what is expected of me as the follower. With others though it can be very confusing. The signals are not clear or strong enough and sometimes they do not "push" or "pull" hard in enough in the right directions. (Are "push/pull" the right words? There I go showing the extent of my beginnerdom!:blush: )

So just because I am a beginner, does it mean that I don't have the right to judge - or rather to feel - who is a better lead? Also does it mean that I shouldn't say to someone "I like dancing with you because you are a strong lead and I find you easy to follow..." (Although I would never say the opposite to someone who wasn't easy for me to follow :blush:

The other thing is that, whilst I do admit to being a complete beginner and I often forget or fluff some of the moves i've just been taught, is it wrong if I were to help another beginner (say someone right next to me) who was struggling with a particular move? (The teacher in me can't resist doing this I'm afraid to admit!) If I can see that a fellow beginner is struggling with a move, and I see what he/she is doing wrong; if the teacher is busy or has not noticed, should I just ignore and not offer advice or should I offer advice? I'm not a big headed beginner or anything (far from it, I am my own worst critic when it comes to dancing) but I know that if I were struggling to complete/understand a move and someone near me could offer me advice then I'd want to hear it as I would be too shy to ask the teacher myself.

I have actually offered advice before to a fellow beginner who was struggling with a particular move and who had gotten tangled up.

One final thought; whilst I half agree with the person who said that just because someone has experienced other forms of dance does not make them experienced in ceroc (I can't remember who said it and I'm not sure of how to do the quote thingy... sorry) I also do feel that being very experienced in other forms of dance does give you some (maybe even only a teeny tiny bit) sort of knowledge and expertise in dancing in general. As such could such a person (even if still a beginner) not offer general dance advice?

Perhaps you won't agree, and that's cool. I feel that I'm getting to grips with Ceroc fairly well so far (bearing in mind I've only really done beginner moves so far and I'll probably fall flat on my face when it comes to more intermediate stuff :sick: ) thanks to my own knowledge and experience of other dance styles, some of which I have done to a fairly advanced level and have even taught.

Yikes. I hope that this doesn't upset or offend anyone. I just found the thread really interesting and it got me thinking so I thought I'd put those thoughts down here. :flower:

stewart38

23rd-February-2006, 04:37 PM

Yikes. I hope that this doesn't upset or offend anyone. I just found the thread really interesting and it got me thinking so I thought I'd put those thoughts down here. :flower: [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Welcome and well put

rep on the way

Donna

23rd-February-2006, 05:30 PM

thanks to my own knowledge and experience of other dance styles, some of which I have done to a fairly advanced level and have even taught.

Hi Babycass

welcome to forum. :flower:

What other styles have you done? Interested to know.:nice:

babycass77

23rd-February-2006, 07:19 PM

Hey folks thanks for the welcomes. :love:

This is the first time I have done any form of partner dancing. I have done mostly ballet but have dabbled in a few other styles too. I used to do highland when I was younger and competed regularly until I had to bow out with knee problems. I've also done a little bit of jazz and a little bit less Irish dance and some tap a number of years ago. I suppose I'm fairly well versed in a lot of dance styles. I'm far from good. I find it difficult to get to classes often enough between work and a hectic life. I do love it though. Dance is my one true passion in life and since I discovered ceroc a very short while ago, I can't get enough of it. I think my enthusiasm definitely shows in classes! I'm generally the one who cannot sit still and even aftre a dance if I'm not trying to scout for another dance then I'm found watching other people. I think it's lovely to watch.

ducasi

23rd-February-2006, 11:48 PM

... I still think that as a complete beginner you can tell who the better dancers are. ...

So just because I am a beginner, does it mean that I don't have the right to judge - or rather to feel - who is a better lead? Also does it mean that I shouldn't say to someone "I like dancing with you because you are a strong lead and I find you easy to follow..." (Although I would never say the opposite to someone who wasn't easy for me to follow :blush: Cass, you are so right.

As a beginner I got criticised for judging people as good or bad dancers – but you're right – a beginner can tell just as well, if not more so, who is giving them a good dance and who isn't.

The only thing I'd maybe disagree with you is over whether a strong lead is necessarily better. As a relative beginner you're probably looking for a unambiguous lead, but that doesn't necessarily mean strong.

Whitebeard

24th-February-2006, 01:42 AM

The only thing I'd maybe disagree with you is over whether a strong lead is necessarily better. As a relative beginner you're probably looking for a unambiguous lead, but that doesn't necessarily mean strong.

Just what I thought when reading that Ducassi. The alternative I had in mind was that the lead should be clear in its intention. I love those moments where the lead is weak in physical terms but strong in the intensity of the connection.

Gadget

24th-February-2006, 02:41 PM

It all depends. See, if you lead it the way they may find comfortable with, then that might be totally wrong and therefore will not work with others.? Really? I have never found anything that is comfortable and smooth with one person, then uncomfortable with another. :shrug: (It may not be as comfortable or as smooth, but it's not uncomfortable.)

There should only be one way to lead so that everybody can follow.No. Sorry, but if I led a beginner in the same way as I lead an experianced dancer, they would probably just loose contact and stand asking me what they are meant to do.
If I led a better dancer in the same way as I would lead a beginner, they would find it very uncomfortable - the movements too big, too forcefull in some bits, out of time in other bits, pushed and pulled all over the floor.

The lead has to addapt to the responsivenss and tension of their partner. I dance with my partner, with feedback from them and addapting to them. If I can't change to addapt to them, why should I to expect them to change and addapt to me? {Exception being pain: Number one rule - don't cause your partner pain.}

It this one person struggles to follow a move that everybody else can and tries telling you how it should be done..then that's just their opinion. It will be almost like they are teaching themselves to be lead into something that would only feel right when dancing with you. When she starts dancing with people, she will still struggle.This is the argument against having a regular dance partner.
The question is why do they struggle? If your answer is because they are not following correctly, then that poses the question Why can't they follow correctly?
In the people you are describing, they take it upon themselves to try and work out why and fix it {a good thing :clap:}. This implys that they want it to be fixed, so are not above a little guidance themselves - ask why they want a specific movement, then show them an alternative to get the same result.
Both partners improve. Win-Win situation.

Does that mean that everybody needs to improve on their lead?Almost certainly. Except followers. They don't need to improve their lead. They need to decrease their anticipation and increase their reactions.

Gadget

24th-February-2006, 02:43 PM

I find it difficult to get to classes often enough between work and a hectic life. I do love it though. Dance is my one true passion in life and since I discovered ceroc a very short while ago, I can't get enough of it. So where do you dance then?

{Welcome btw :hug:}

babycass77

24th-February-2006, 04:21 PM

Hey ducasi and Whitebeard

Just read what you said about the difference between a strong lead and a clear lead and I totally agree with you. I don't think I really ever meant "strong" as in physically string but more clear. I know that my lack of knowledge and understanding because I'm new to Ceroc a means that I'm unable to follow some of the more subtle signals that a lead can give me and know that I'll improve on that in time (hopefully).

I also think that because I'm a beginner I can get easily confused between some of the very similar moves (really how many different "first moves are there - just kidding!!).

I do prefer to dance with someone who gives a clear signal. I think I always will. I find it interesting to dance with so many different people and "feel" so many different styles. I'm also at the stage that I like dancing someone who'll try a move which I've perhaps never seen or done; I love when it comes off as it makes me feel good as a dancer and makes me feel that I can improve and reach the next stage with a little more knowledge. Sometimes when I dance with someone I know what is expected of me, even though I don't know the move - that's how clear the signals are. That to me is the sign of a good dancer. They haven't forced me into a move (a different and less pleasant thing altogether) but through their clear, (common-sense?) signals, I have been able to "follow" them into a step. Does that make any sense at all?

hmm Sorry I think I've gone slightly off the topic here!

ducasi

24th-February-2006, 04:52 PM

... Sometimes when I dance with someone I know what is expected of me, even though I don't know the move - that's how clear the signals are. That to me is the sign of a good dancer. They haven't forced me into a move (a different and less pleasant thing altogether) but through their clear, (common-sense?) signals, I have been able to "follow" them into a step. Does that make any sense at all? Yeah, that makes perfect sense, though "signals" is another dangerous word to use, as it's too easily confused with visual signals – much frowned upon round these parts... :sad:

The word you're really looking for is "lead". :nice:

Although you'll end up learning how to follow lots of moves, the skill you want to learn is simply how to follow a lead. And it sounds like you're making good progress.

Princess Fi

24th-February-2006, 06:32 PM

[QUOTE=Gadget] I dance with my partner, with feedback from them and addapting to them. If I can't change to addapt to them, why should I to expect them to change and addapt to me? QUOTE]

:yeah: Totally - could not agree more. Each dance you have is going to be different, and good dance partners (both leading and following) should be able to compensate for anything to be able to get around it, and have a good and successful dance.

I mean, if I was going to borishly follow every lead I was given by a guy on his first night learning Ceroc, half of the time I wouldn't be moving, and the other half, I would be standing on him/bumping into the stage/bumping into other people/falling flat on my backside.

But that's not just something for ppl who are 'beginners'. I've been going a while, and there are days (more often than I would care to admit) where I am not totally 'in the dance zone' and I may be not in as much control of my spins for example. And the really good leads that I have danced with have been able to compensate for that (good on you guys!).

I think its just being able to build a good 'dance rapport' with your partner - regardless of whether you are the lead, or the one following, and regardless of how 'advanced' you are. Cause at the end of the day, you are dancing with[I] the other person, not [I]at them.

killingtime

24th-February-2006, 06:34 PM

As a beginner I got criticised for judging people as good or bad dancers – but you're right – a beginner can tell just as well, if not more so, who is giving them a good dance and who isn't.

Though I found, as a beginner, that I enjoyed dancing more with women who, I now realize, were back leading to a degree. In the case of experienced dancers who wouldn't anticipate and would only go where I was leading them I found that I didn't enjoy dancing with them as much (now it's reversed and they are just the sort of dancer I am looking for :D). So I might have been a poor judge of who was a good follower back in the good ol' days.

As a relative beginner you're probably looking for a unambiguous lead.

I'm pretty sure that most followers look for that; beginner or not.

I also think that not all beginners that try to tell you what to do are big headed; sometimes I think they can just phrase it wrong.

I did have one women who did turn "It's always the lead's fault" on me which I felt a little taken aback by since I spent time during freestyle, at her request, to go over the move.

Minnie M

24th-February-2006, 06:59 PM

.........I did have one women who did turn "It's always the lead's fault" ............
:( I have heard this many times, and when the follower actually follows it normally is :really:

However, when there is a surplus of women in classes I always join the queue as a lead, and I really feel for you guys, some women can be so hard to dance with - not only are they ignoring the lead (too busy trying to follow the teacher) they are back-leading so much that you need not be there :angry:

- only a small minority thankfully - but they do seem to appear in most classes :sad:

Lynn

24th-February-2006, 08:08 PM

Not a big headed beginner but relevant to the whole discussion on lead. I was dancing with a guy last night - it was his first class and he had been struggling so I got him up to have a go in the freestyle (on taxi duty). The first move was an arm jive and as I knew he was struggling to remember moves I said 'if you're stuck you can do the twist more than twice while you quickly think of the next move'. We went through the routine once and the second time after two twists in the arm jive I began to guide to slightly backlead his hand up to his shoulder (as I find a lot of guys seem to forget to do that) and he said 'Hey, I'm leading!':clap:

drathzel

24th-February-2006, 08:18 PM

and he said 'Hey, I'm leading!':clap:

Sounds like the same guy i was dancing with/backleading:D

Tiggerbabe

24th-February-2006, 09:20 PM

he said 'Hey, I'm leading!':clap:
Hee, hee - Good for him :rofl:

DianaS

24th-February-2006, 09:24 PM

'Hey, I'm leading!':clap:
tee heee
I danced with a guy bot long ago that was so not leading that I threatened him with If I have to lead an y more I'll make you take the girls part
He giggled girlishly and fluttered his lashes at me!:flower:

Ghost

26th-February-2006, 05:44 PM

There should only be one way to lead so that everybody can follow.

The lead has to addapt
From my perspective there's two different ways of going about this
Either
I hone my lead to become more and more 'perfect'. In effect I'm trying to get the move to be the same every time. The aim is to get such a clear precise lead that anyone can follow it; in fact they shouldn't really be any other choice but to follow it as any other motion on their part wouldn't make sense.

Or I focus on the essence of the move and accept that I'll never dance it exactly the same way twice. In effect every time I do the move it's unique, a bit like Monet's different versions of the water lilies. So it becomes more about how to adapt and flow around the person, music etc.

Thing is, ultimately the two will end up at the same place. It's just a matter of personal preference as to how you get there.

Take care,
Christopher

David Bailey

26th-February-2006, 06:46 PM

:( I have heard this many times, and when the follower actually follows it normally is :really:
This is one of my many pet gripes, and in fact I mentioned it in my "Top 10 smokescreens (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5050)" thread waaaay back.

You notice this in Blues MJ and of course in AT a lot - the lead is invitational. If the lady ignores your invitation, goes off into a world of her own, or insists on dancing a completely inappropriate way (e.g. bouncing and spinning in Blues, dancing hyperspeed in AT), there's not much you as a leader can do about it, apart from grin and bear it.

OK, fair enough, you can sometimes (usually) force control - but that's not leading, that's wrestling.

drathzel

26th-February-2006, 06:59 PM

However, when there is a surplus of women in classes I always join the queue as a lead, and I really feel for you guys, some women can be so hard to dance with - not only are they ignoring the lead (too busy trying to follow the teacher) they are back-leading so much that you need not be there :angry:

:yeah: i agree, and i actually find if i am in a position like that i come away with sore arms!:tears:

ducasi

26th-February-2006, 08:47 PM

This is one of my many pet gripes, and in fact I mentioned it in my "Top 10 smokescreens (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5050)" thread waaaay back.

You notice this in Blues MJ and of course in AT a lot - the lead is invitational. ...There are two rules:

The man is always right
It's always the man's fault

The key part being that if the lady follows rule number 1 and does exactly what the man lead, and it goes wrong, then rule number 2 applies – it's his fault. If the lady ignores rule number 1, all bets are off.

Donna

27th-February-2006, 06:56 PM

There are two rules:

The man is always right
It's always the man's fault

The key part being that if the lady follows rule number 1 and does exactly what the man lead, and it goes wrong, then rule number 2 applies – it's his fault. If the lady ignores rule number 1, all bets are off.

That sounds right to me.

jockey

27th-February-2006, 10:25 PM

This is one of my many pet gripes, and in fact I mentioned it in my "Top 10 smokescreens (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5050)" thread waaaay back.

You notice this in Blues MJ and of course in AT a lot - the lead is invitational. If the lady ignores your invitation, goes off into a world of her own, or insists on dancing a completely inappropriate way (e.g. bouncing and spinning in Blues, dancing hyperspeed in AT), there's not much you as a leader can do about it, apart from grin and bear it.

OK, fair enough, you can sometimes (usually) force control - but that's not leading, that's wrestling.
You can say something - how is the follower to know there is something amiss?
I was at Barton Hall (Mojive, Horndean A3) on Saturday and witnessed a whole series of MJ "misdemeaners" including inappropriate refusals, couples hogging one another, poor timing and backleading. I spoke to one "follower" re "lead and follow" and she muttered something and carried on messing up the dance. I was so annoyed that I warned everyone who asked me for a dance that "I was in a foul mood" but this seemed to egg them all on...! (and I got some ok dances).
But here is a question for the guys: if the (rather attractive) refusee ("I"m just going back to work on the desk"; "Im having a drink") comes up and asks ME for a dance next time, what do I do - refuse or agree to dance? (And dont say "it shouldnt matter whether she is attractive or not", please..)

Whitebeard

27th-February-2006, 11:45 PM

You can say something - how is the follower to know there is something amiss?
I was at Barton Hall (Mojive, Horndean A3) on Saturday and witnessed a whole series of MJ "misdemeaners" including inappropriate refusals, couples hogging one another, poor timing and backleading. I spoke to one "follower" re "lead and follow" and she muttered something and carried on messing up the dance. I was so annoyed that I warned everyone who asked me for a dance that "I was in a foul mood" but this seemed to egg them all on...! (and I got some ok dances).
But here is a question for the guys: if the (rather attractive) refusee ("I"m just going back to work on the desk"; "Im having a drink") comes up and asks ME for a dance next time, what do I do - refuse or agree to dance? (And dont say "it shouldnt matter whether she is attractive or not", please..)

(My highlighting.)

I do hope you can lighten up and enjoy your next dance night ;-)

A very attractive young lady declined to dance with me quite some time ago; a pity, as she's quite a nice dancer too. We do coincide on the lesson line-up and greet and smile quite normally but there's no way I have, or would have, asked for a dance a second time. There is, after all, not usually any shortage of ladies and refusals are so rare that they tend to stick in memory. However, if she were to ask me I would take that as a sign of contrition and accept without reservation. A fresh start.

Ghost

27th-February-2006, 11:55 PM

But here is a question for the guys: if the (rather attractive) refusee ("I"m just going back to work on the desk"; "Im having a drink") comes up and asks ME for a dance next time, what do I do - refuse or agree to dance?
Personally I'd say "Yes". She might have been having an off-day. She might have just had a lousy dance. You weren't in the greatest state of mind either. One lady once asked me during a dance if I was ok (I was rather caught up in the music and it was a sad song) :flower:

(And dont say "it shouldnt matter whether she is attractive or not", please..)
Well obviously this matters. Most people will prefer to dance with someone they find attractive, whether it's because they have a beautiful spirit, are a wonderful dancer, or are simply an incredible example of the human form. Of course there's varying degrees....

If she's :worthy: then ask her. (*)

Worst she can do if say 'No'. (Ok, technically there's worse things she could do, mostly involving ripping your heart out and stamping on it :blush: )

Hope that helps,
Christopher

(*) Actually even if she doesn't seem to be, appearances can be heart-stoppingly deceiving :awe: So ask anyway.

frodo

28th-February-2006, 01:22 AM

...
But here is a question for the guys: if the (rather attractive) refusee ("I"m just going back to work on the desk"; "Im having a drink") comes up and asks ME for a dance next time, what do I do - refuse or agree to dance? (And dont say "it shouldnt matter whether she is attractive or not", please..)Certainly it matters - lots of pleasure to be had turning down someone attractive :devil:

Seriously - unless the refusee refused in an intentionally nasty way, I'd agree with Whiteboard; the lady can reset the clock by asking.

Perhaps 3 widely spaced requests before adding the "do not ask" list would give the lady benefit of the doubt, if the lady gives potentially plausible excuses.

Ghost

28th-February-2006, 01:53 AM

Perhaps 3 widely spaced requests before adding the "do not ask" list would give the lady benefit of the doubt, if the lady gives potentially plausible excuses.
Normally in life I apply this "3 strikes and you're out" rule.

In Ceroc, I don't. I wander around and ask people to dance. It's a request. Anyone's free to say "No" at any time. I'm not even particularly phased by the reason given (Thankfully so far no-one's gone for the Cordelia reply of "With you? :sick: " ). The idea of keeping a list in my head of when someone's refused me - I can't even remember most people's names :blush: not to mention the high turnover of dancers in Ceroc. So I ask and let those who want to, decline gracefully. As for the real reasons for their refusal - I'm too busy dancing with the lovely lady who just said "Yes!" to care :clap:

Besides their reasons may change over time. Yesterday's "No" may be tomorrow's "Yes!"

Be Well,
Christopher

David Bailey

28th-February-2006, 10:22 AM

You can say something - how is the follower to know there is something amiss?
Unfortunately, unlike something like bouncy arms / anticipation / etc, explaining the concepts of invitational leading and "smoothing the dance out" is not not something that can be done quickly on the dance floor. And I've never really got the knack (or, being honest, the inclination) to taking my partner to one side after the dance to explain it in detail - it might appear patronising, and that's valuable dance-time I'd be using up.

I know, I'm bad. :blush:

But here is a question for the guys: if the (rather attractive) refusee ("I"m just going back to work on the desk"; "Im having a drink") comes up and asks ME for a dance next time, what do I do - refuse or agree to dance? (And dont say "it shouldnt matter whether she is attractive or not", please..)
Different topic, but agree, definitely - to me, that indicates that the refusee had a genuine reason for refusal, rather than hotshotism, so why not?

I don't ask twice in one evening, but I also reset the counter each evening - admittedly, that's mainly due to the fact that I can rarely remember who I did or didn't dance with on a given evening anyway. :grin:

Donna

28th-February-2006, 12:45 PM

Different topic, but agree, definitely - to me, that indicates that the refusee had a genuine reason for refusal, rather than hotshotism, so why not?

I agree with you there DJ. Everyone has a right to refuse and also has a reason for it. Something anybody shouldn't take personally. If they have a good enough reason for refusing and you seen your backside so refused them the next time you were asked, then you're the one that's made to look bad, not them.

jockey

28th-February-2006, 08:29 PM

You can say something - how is the follower to know there is something amiss?
I was at Barton Hall (Mojive, Horndean A3) on Saturday and witnessed a whole series of MJ "misdemeaners" including inappropriate refusals, couples hogging one another, poor timing and backleading. I spoke to one "follower" re "lead and follow" and she muttered something and carried on messing up the dance. I was so annoyed that I warned everyone who asked me for a dance that "I was in a foul mood" but this seemed to egg them all on...! (and I got some ok dances).
But here is a question for the guys: if the (rather attractive) refusee ("I"m just going back to work on the desk"; "Im having a drink") comes up and asks ME for a dance next time, what do I do - refuse or agree to dance? (And dont say "it shouldnt matter whether she is attractive or not", please..)
Sorry, the venue was Bournmouth pavilion. Barton Hall was where someone came up to my partner in the middle of a dance shouting there was someone on the phone for her..!

Clive Long

28th-February-2006, 08:40 PM

Sorry, the venue was Bournmouth pavilion. Barton Hall was where someone came up to my partner in the middle of a dance shouting there was someone on the phone for her..!
I saw a guy at Finchley once take a call from the phone in his pocket during a dance.

Can't remember exactly what happened next but blood was spilt and teeth lost.

Ah, it's a happening place, Finchley/Whetstone.

Woger

spindr

28th-February-2006, 09:02 PM

That's nothing -- I've seen the teacher get a phone call (on vibrate in his pocket) when dancing double trouble -- coincidentally when both followers were sat on his thighs.

SpinDr.

Donna

1st-March-2006, 02:05 PM

That's nothing -- I've seen the teacher get a phone call (on vibrate in his pocket) when dancing double trouble -- coincidentally when both followers were sat on his thighs.

SpinDr.

:rofl: :rofl:

LMC

1st-March-2006, 02:56 PM

As I've become a more experienced (and hopefully better) dancer, I've corrected people less.

I don't remember ever taking it upon myself to tell someone they are leading a move incorrectly in freestyle, unless asked to help or I'm taxi-ing and it's been appropriate. (Asking someone not to do a move e.g. a drop is different) But I confess I used to in lessons. Now (again, unless taxi-ing or specifically asked) I'm more likely to smile and let them get on with it. In fact, in intermediate classes these days, I pretty much watch the teacher, listen to any safety points, ignore the rest and just follow the lead - which means if anyone asks I am unfortunately usually a bit unhelpful because I genuinely don't have a clue! - the line in this case tends to be "don't worry about it smile - that lead worked :nice:"

Anyone else willing to confess to having once been a bad beginner, or have you all always been perfect? :innocent:

Freddie_C

1st-March-2006, 05:11 PM

Donna

3rd-March-2006, 02:57 PM

I'll try not to...:yum:

(Its not me though!)

Should be glad you ain't. He's tall, slim, bald and **** eyed! :grin:

Princess Fi

6th-March-2006, 03:48 PM

Donna

7th-March-2006, 03:07 PM

Argh! total pet peeve! I've got a similar guy in the class I go to, who kept trying to make the girl move her arm round the back of his neck every time he did any move. Now as an intermediate, it annoyed me (especially when he told me off for not putting my arm around his neck - grr!!! :angry: ) but it was the beginners he was leading I really felt sorry for. One of my friends started that week, and got really depressed that this guy (who for all she knew was 'more advanced') was continually telling her that she was dancing wrong, when it was him that had the problem!

My problem is just egos really. In that case girls who were only jsut starting that night were being put off from coming again, because of one person who thought they knew it all.

Well in this case, I think it would be a good idea to report it. It would be such a shame to see the numbers go down because of someone like that.

Princess Fi

8th-March-2006, 02:38 PM

Thankfully on this occaision it didn't come to that (since I'm not sure if that would have really embarassed her, and then had the same effect). One of the more advanced guys saw what was happening and had a quiet word about 'where things were going wrong' :wink: .

Kudos to knights in shining jazz shoes!

Donna

8th-March-2006, 02:45 PM

One of the more advanced guys saw what was happening and had a quiet word about 'where things were going wrong' :wink: .

Well I suppose that is one good way of doing it as a first warning.

Phil

9th-May-2006, 04:11 PM

Should be glad you ain't. He's tall, slim, bald and **** eyed! :grin:

Thank God! At least I know it's not me. I'm not bald!:)

Donna

9th-May-2006, 06:31 PM

Thank God! At least I know it's not me. I'm not bald!:)

:rofl: You make me laugh phil!!! :rofl: You're not ****- eyed either!

MartinHarper

9th-May-2006, 08:58 PM

Well in this case, I think it would be a good idea to report it.

Eh?
The guy's a beginner, he didn't understand something the teacher said, and you want to report him? What for, exactly? You think he has some kind of neck fetish? I understand that the neck is one of the major erogenous zones, after all. Tabloids are always printing pictures of women in strappy tops and writing "Phwoar! Look at those jug-ulars!".

What's wrong with talking to the guy and saying "Actually, I've been dancing for X months/years/lives, and I happen to know that my hand should be placed on your shoulder, not your neck"? Saying nothing when your beginner partner is labouring under that kind of misapprehension is not remotely helpful, to him, or anyone else in the class. If you're not a beginner, and you're not helping beginners, I don't see what purpose you serve in a beginner class.

Your wife

10th-May-2006, 01:42 PM

He also passed a comment on to one woman there (just out of the blue) he said, 'Do you know that most men prefer oral to real sex!!:eek: )

.

Anyway, is this true?

Rhythm King

10th-May-2006, 03:00 PM

Anyway, is this true?

Manners please! Don't talk with your mouth full...

Your wife

10th-May-2006, 03:35 PM

Manners please! Don't talk with your mouth full...

....and never say no to a free drink:devil:

Donna

10th-May-2006, 04:42 PM

Anyway, is this true?

The person who told me is a very good friend of mine.. known her for years and she wouldn't lie about anything like that. he is very creepy.

Princess Fi

11th-May-2006, 12:29 PM

Saying nothing when your beginner partner is labouring under that kind of misapprehension is not remotely helpful, to him, or anyone else in the class.

In that particular instance it wasn't a more advanced dancer he was dancing with - it was a friend of mine who had just started that week, who was getting upset at being told by this bloke (who had been doing Ceroc for a whole 3 weeks) that it was obviously her fault the move was going wrong.

Sorry for being pedantic - just didn't want Donna getting mis-quoted on my account :blush: :flower:

Donna

11th-May-2006, 01:49 PM

Manners please! Don't talk with your mouth full...

:rofl: That is just such a typical way for a man to think!

Your wife

11th-May-2006, 04:35 PM

The person who told me is a very good friend of mine.. known her for years and she wouldn't lie about anything like that. he is very creepy.

Sorry, not doubting your friend, just wondered if the statement was true...

Dreadful Scathe

28th-June-2006, 12:43 PM

The person who told me is a very good friend of mine.. known her for years and she wouldn't lie about anything like that. he is very creepy.
So it is true then?

littlewiggle

30th-June-2006, 07:06 PM

Well if we're having a rant then may I say.............AAAARRRGGHHH!!! There, I feel better already. I'm having a moan not about a beginner but a bighead - that I have been unfortunate enough to encounter on many occasions and did again last night. I never like to criticise people when dancing but last night I was soooooo cross. There is this guy who throws ladies about without a a second thought, often in the path of other people and with no concern for them. Safety is clearly not a concern of his! I am quite a trusting dancer and up for most 'things' :D but I do object to some hotshot who thinks he can do every move under the sun throwing me around like a ragdoll and not even executing the moves properly or safely - so last night I rebelled and did not go where he attempted to throw me :eek: He told me off and said he was leading! I then watched him dance with a beginner - he was enough to put her off for life. He shouted various moves at her, e.g. double spin hook - not many beginners can do a double spin without support. He flung her round with all his might - she lost balance - recovered - only to be thrown to the ground in what looked like a wrestling hold. She looked so bewildered. I noticed he carried on like this all night. I don't ever want to dance with him again but hate saying 'no' as it's against ceroc etiquette......think I may have to make an exception this time though! Also he dances with his tongue permanently sticking out which is just rude.......it is, my mum said so!:grin: