Dancing with ladies taking large steps

[Ghost]

If you're experienced enough / good enough, you can choose to take large steps of course - and it can be good to do that for emphasis, for style or other reasons. Like all these things, you can bend or break the rules, as long as you know what you're doing.
I am soooo profoundly bad at leading ladies who take large steps / travel all the time. :blush: For the first time I came close to just giving up, stopping the dance halfway through and apologising to one lady recently :flower: - she's a great dancer :worthy: , I just could not figure out how to lead her. Had similar problems with another lady recently. :blush:

Just to be clear, we're talking dancing with someone who's moving to beyond what feels like the limits of my full extension with a lot of momentum.

I've tried
Taking a step after them as they travel, but that feels wrong.
Travelling with them - ditto
Dancing beginner's moves - no good, anything they can step out to they do.
Bracing myself in position to let them dance with a lead in a stable position - comically bad :tears:
Just dancing - terrible
Dancing close moves - works, but I'd have to keep dancing close moves and as soon as I lead anything else they go off into orbit.

Help!

Christopher

[Andreas]

As so often, my opinion may be a bit extreme. But essentially what I believe is that people (leads and followers) who take large steps deprive themselves of using their body because the time is taking up catching up with their feet. Taking small steps does make a dancer more responsive, tidier and, very importantly, a more complete dancer. More complete because they actually have the time to include their entire body bin the motion. Taking a large step more or less puts the emphasis on your legs, your knees to be precise. The rest of the body has to wait until it has caught up with the leading foot.

As DJ stated in that quote, you can and should vary the step size, i.e. take a large step every now and again for emphasis. Though in general short steps are the better choice.

I know how you feel, I personally don't enjoy dancing with people who take large steps anywhere near as much as with those that take short steps. In my case it is not as much a problem of leading them into the position I want them in, which I guess is a matter of experience and the amount of travel that I do. But people who take large steps reduce the amount of speed changes that one can do for musical interpretation because they are ALWAYS LATE because their weight is to far back.

If you are just struggle with moves try to dance in 'Cuban Salsa Style', ie close rotating and grinding moves. They will struggle doing large steps. And if they do large steps the centrifugal force will teach them quickly that it was the wrong choice. :rofl:

So don't get frustrated, find counter measures by thinking of what is required to do what they do and cutting it down. :whistle:

[David Bailey]

Blimey, when did I say that? :confused:

Anyway:

I am soooo profoundly bad at leading ladies who take large steps / travel all the time.
Sometimes followers will take large steps no matter what - and short of holding them in a basket all the time, there's not a lot you can do about it apart from saying "Can you please take smaller steps?", which may not be received well.

One possible alternative - do lots of moves which minimize the amount of actual big back steps the lady takes. Teapots, walkarounds, slow combs, that sort of thing - anything that requires wiggling, in other words.

Another possible is use their large step-backs - follow them, with a mambo-style step forward. That way, you're never too far away from them.

[Ghost]

Blimey, when did I say that? :confused:
"If you could tell a beginner One Thing..." thread - it's derived from your first post advising take small steps, but the actual quote is from post No 14

[QUOTE=DavidJames]Sometimes followers will take large steps no matter what - and short of holding them in a basket all the time, there's not a lot you can do about it apart from saying "Can you please take smaller steps?", which may not be received well.

Much as I appreciate what you and Andreas are saying :cheers: (and indeed I've used this approach when a dance floor is crowded and the lady is over-enthudiastic) I can see that there is the potential for a superb dance the way the lady wants to dance. Epic even :clap: Think Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - obviously I'll need half the dance floor, but that's another problem. So I'm not looking for a way to shut them down, I just want to be able to dance with them.


Another possible is use their large step-backs - follow them, with a mambo-style step forward. That way, you're never too far away from them.
Doesn't feel right :tears: I think there's supposed to be distance between us to emphasise her moves?

More ideas please :cheers:

Thanks
Christopher

[DavidB]

Help!Let go.

It helps to aim them at an empty bit of floor first - for the sake of everyone else.

[Whitebeard]

I think there's a happy median here.

The dances I most like are those where there is the minimum tension/compression and the maximum response. Moving as one. Idyllic.

Those I like least are where the lady is unresponsive, tight, heavy, unwilling to 'open out'. In these circumstances it really is hard to establish any sort of meaningful and pleasant 'connection', it becomes very work indeed and, mercifully (once past the raw beginner stage), there are few ladies of this persuasion.

Less problematic are the ladies who take large steps. I probably belong in that league myself. Of necessity this leads higher levels of tension and compression, but, at least, there is a connection and the chance, by example, to bring this down to manageable proportions.

[Ghost]

Let go.

It helps to aim them at an empty bit of floor first - for the sake of everyone else.
Ok no smilies, you're serious? I've been considering this. It's an obvious solution and arguably couldn't make matters any worse; I'm just concerned that if it's not the 'right' answer and she's not expecting it, the momentum's gonna be a kick in the teeth to ride out without a counterpoint connection from me :blush: On the other hand if her idea is to whirl past me, let go, style it out then reconnect, contrast with a few close moves to really build up momentum, etc, yeah that could be pretty dramatic.

If however you're suggesting this as more of a chastisement, that's not what I'm looking to do - I'd rather simply not dance with a lady than put her in harm's way, make her look foolish etc.

One of the ladies I mentioned was a beginner though, so I don't think this is the right answer for her. Great natural dancer. Amazing her first week as the moves taught were all close. Second week, bigger moves, my lead went to hell in a handbasket. When I finally went back to smaller move for the finish - silky smooth, she can dance. :worthy:

I'm fine with everyone else.

Christopher

[Ghost]

Of necessity this leads higher levels of tension and compression, but, at least, there is a connection and the chance, by example, to bring this down to manageable proportions.
Ok how do I do it if I don't want to bring it down to "manageable proportions" and just let the lady move as she wants? You're saying I need more tension in my lead? Ok that makes sense. So I just dance normally but up the tension in my lead? That may be part of it but there's more. I know that trick from dancing with taxi dancers.

It really feels like I've got the distancing wrong, maybe the timing, but I can't figure out how? :confused:

Any thoughts,
Christopher

[LMC]

If one of the ladies is a beginner, then maybe ask one of the taxi dancers to bring up "small steps" in the review class - "catch her quick" before she goes to intermediate and the habit is set in.

I've also occasionally asked the teacher at venues to make a "general comment" if there's more than one or two leads who seem to have the same bad habit.

[tsh]

Ok no smilies, you're serious? I've been considering this. It's an obvious solution and arguably couldn't make matters any worse; I'm just concerned that if it's not the 'right' answer and she's not expecting it, the momentum's gonna be a kick in the teeth to ride out without a counterpoint connection from me :blush: On the other hand if her idea is to whirl past me, let go, style it out then reconnect, contrast with a few close moves to really build up momentum, etc, yeah that could be pretty dramatic.

Well, if she wants to go, let her. Or don't dance with her. Or, use 2 hands and stop her being creative. If you chose not to dance with her, try just suggesting that she takes smaller steps :devil:

If you want to try and change the way she is following, keep your arms more bent maybe - but it sounds like you might just have very different styles.



One of the ladies I mentioned was a beginner though, so I don't think this is the right answer for her. Great natural dancer. Amazing her first week as the moves taught were all close. Second week, bigger moves, my lead went to hell in a handbasket.
You started by saying that this was a problem with someone you thought was a great dancer - not someone who had potential... It might be reasonable to suggest that she should stay closer/avoid opening up/moves slower - but equally it might be worth ignoring in the hope that she works this out for herself, since there's a chance that it's only with your lead that she does this.

Sean

[Ghost]

I've also occasionally asked the teacher at venues to make a "general comment" if there's more than one or two leads who seem to have the same bad habit.
Which is why you're a considerate taxi dancer :flower:

However I've only run into maybe 5 ladies doing this over the last year. It's by no means common. Thing is they were all good dancers. At first I thought it was just a case of them being too good and I just couldn't lead at that level, but now I've had the same problem with an intermediate and a beginner the only common link is the style of dancing. It's obviously deliberate on their part; the beginner was using it to put her style on the bigger moves. I'm having trouble with the concept that given the quality of the rest of their dancing, this is wrong. I just can't figure out how to lead it.

Any ladies here dance big? Any suggestions on ideally how you'd like the guy to lead if you had an empty dance floor?

Thanks
Christopher

[Ghost]

You started by saying that this was a problem with someone you thought was a great dancer - not someone who had potential...
Sorry, I'm thinking of about 5 ladies and just used two extremes as examples - one's an experienced dancer, one's a beginner. It's the style of dancing I'm having the problem with.


but it sounds like you might just have very different styles.
I'd agree with that. Hence I'm trying to work out how to dance with this style. By the same token though, I am trying to work out how to dance with this style rather than at it. So I'm not looking for ways to hack it down to fit my style of lead. I'm looking for a way to adjust my lead so I can dance with it.

Take care,
Christopher

[LMC]

Just to be clear, we're talking dancing with someone who's moving to beyond what feels like the limits of my full extension with a lot of momentum.
My immediate reaction to that was "yanker".

It's very considerate of you to think how you can adapt fully. But rather than risking a shoulder injury, perhaps you do need to just do whatever works. Yes, it's up to the lead to make the follower look good. But the follower has a responsibility to maintain a connection to the lead. If they are moving even "to" the limits of your full extension, let alone beyond it, then that must have a negative effect on the connection.

In other words "it's not all your fault" - or all your responsibility. Sometimes, the first time you dance with someone, it doesn't go that well until you get used to each other's styles. Occasionally you find someone you just never really "connect" with properly and always find hard work to dance with - even that can improve over a longer time period! So perhaps your dances with these ladies will improve over time.

In the meantime, perhaps positive affirmation will help, along the lines of "I feel like the connection between us is much better/I lead better when you take smaller steps".

[Gadget]

I am soooo profoundly bad at leading ladies who take large steps / travel all the time. ~ Just to be clear, we're talking dancing with someone who's moving to beyond what feels like the limits of my full extension with a lot of momentum.
What's the problem? :confused: Just say "Go Go Gadget Arms"... well it works for me :whistle:

The main problem with followers who step back too far tends to be that they try and take your arm with them - there are lots of threads about "yankers" and advice on them. (Actually, that's a lie: there are lots of threads complaining about them with a little advice :rolleyes: )


I've tried
Taking a step after them as they travel, but that feels wrong.
Travelling with them - ditto
feels wrong? Pity - I would say that this is the more 'fluid' option.

What tends to happen if you are doing this in order to compensate for the follower travelling too far is that you lead them further away and take a step forward.
Many combat arts have exercises to move yourself in order to maintain/control the distance between yourself and your opponent - What you need to do is move yourself in order to maintain that same 'neutral' distance and simply lead as normal.

Another common mistake is 'reacting' to your partner's step back rather than moving with them. They start to move out of your 'comfortable leading distance', so you start to move in to maintain it - and the time lag between the two makes it awkward and disjointed.
If you make a deliberate effort to step onto your (mirrored) foot at the same time as your partner, then simply adjusting where that step is a lot easier than starting and stopping.


Dancing beginner's moves - no good, anything they can step out to they do.
Bracing myself in position to let them dance with a lead in a stable position - comically bad :tears:
Just dancing - terrible
You can 'force' the follower not to go so big, but it will be a battle; you need to use strength to lead moves a fraction early so that you have time to absorb the momentum and inertia - and this is dangerous for both partners. Especially since your partner will probably be almost dancing ahead of the beat (they need to to cover the ground in time :sick: )
But if you don't want to compromise your own movements and way of dancing, or want to physically teach the follower, it can be an option. {not one I would recommend} It generally doesn’t take too long before you can loosen off the rains :wink:

Or go to the other extreme as DavidB suggested; beyond your comfortable leading distance, simply let the contact break. Keep the movements of the lead going and "shadow dance" the next bit until they catch up.
The lead 'breaks' for me about one in three dances - normally when I anticipate incorrectly - but it works: I have successfully led several beginners using this and they tend to learn quite quickly.


Dancing close moves - works, but I'd have to keep dancing close moves and as soon as I lead anything else they go off into orbit.You're not really dancing close then; you're simply holding on to your partner to contain them.
Try going from this and leading the moves with your hands as close to your own body/hips as you can (or even behind/to the side opposite your partner slightly): This will keep the follower close and give you your arm's reach of 'buffer' before having to try anything else. When they have the positioning, gradually lead the same moves slightly further away.

I also agree with the suggestions that Taxis/Teachers should breach the subject of distance if it is happening quite often. {Actually, they should probably talk about it anyway ;)}

[Donna]

[
QUOTE=Andreas]As so often, my opinion may be a bit extreme. But essentially what I believe is that people (leads and followers) who take large steps deprive themselves of using their body because the time is taking up catching up with their feet.

This it true. Taking large steps does take up more time so if choosing to do big steps, I recommend putting a LOT more energy into it, otherwise it should be small steps most of the time. Depends on the lead though. If he is one that concentrates so much on himself, and is not aware of the where the lady is being positioned, then it could be that he has taken a big step and then tries to lead the lady into a first move for e.g..of course then, she has a long way to go!



The rest of the body has to wait until it has caught up with the leading foot.

The body should move over the foot at the same time. Tis called projecting! ;)



As DJ stated in that quote, you can and should vary the step size, i.e. take a large step every now and again for emphasis. Though in general short steps are the better choice.

This is what a DJ WOULD be good at as they know their music and would know what moves suit each part of the music.

[Ghost]

What's the problem? :confused: Just say "Go Go Gadget Arms"... well it works for me :whistle:
:rofl:

Good points :cheers: , I’m going to need some time to think them through.

In the mean time I spent lunchtime dancing with a post in a disused tennis court, trying to fill the space. I danced the follow in this style and it feels right. It’s balanced, lyrical, fluid. But put in the post (waist height to represent my hand) as a stop point and yikes! I tried varying the distance and found all the fun things I’ve found previously – it really does feel lousy.

But this came to me. If you dance say an octopus as taught in beginners class, it’s linear. So at the end of the extension, it’s pretty much a stop-start move as the lady reverses direction. I smooth it out with some curvature, but In this case, there’s just too much momentum for that to work (picture a car going round a corner way too fast). So I think for this style the whole thing needs to be more circular and in constant motion and rotation like aikido. Rather than being on the same line at the end of the extensions I need to be off to the side and in motion. That varies the tangential length between us and provided I keep the whole move in rotation, the momentum never has to stop, though I can vary it by changing the radius at which I’m leading the moves during the non-extension part. Likewise because of wacky physics equations, as long as the movements are circular there’s always acceleration and momentum. Likewise the whole tangential thing lets me give varying degrees of tension whilst giving the same amount of tension.

Thoughts and refinements welcomed

Christopher

[Tessalicious]

As DJ stated in that quote...
This is what a DJ WOULD be good at as they know their music and would know what moves suit each part of the music.Ahem, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but DJ isn't a DJ... :rolleyes:

[Ghost]

My immediate reaction to that was "yanker".
Nah, they're lovely ladies really :flower:


It's very considerate of you to think how you can adapt fully. But rather than risking a shoulder injury, perhaps you do need to just do whatever works.
:flower: Thanks. It's good advice and if I'm dancing with them because I haven't met them before and didn't know, or they ended up with me at the end of one of the classes "and now you're in freestyle", then yeah, I'd just do what works. But if I actually ask them to dance, I feel that a part of that is asking them to dance in the way they want to. And if I can't lead that, then really I shouldn't ask.



In other words "it's not all your fault" - or all your responsibility. :flower:


So perhaps your dances with these ladies will improve over time.
Ever so slightly - I figure at this rate I'll be able to dance with one of them in about oh, 5 or 6 years. I'll be genuinely amazed if they're still accepting dances with me at this point though.


In the meantime, perhaps positive affirmation will help, along the lines of "I feel like the connection between us is much better".
Good advice, but in this case I really can't emphasise enough just how much of a car wreck my leading them is.

I appreciate the thoughts and encouragement :flower: , but if I can't figure this out, I'll just leave them in peace.

Take care,
Christopher

[Caro]

people (leads and followers) who take large steps deprive themselves of using their body because the time is taking up catching up with their feet. :

Indeed that is so true and can be quite a revelation to a beginner / low intermediate lady who might be wondering how the heck more advanced dancers manage (have time) to put style in their dance.
I think that I used to dance like that, especially during spins I was always travelling a lot... then a more advanced dancer (Bill BTC, as usual, :flower: :worthy: :flower: ) told me (on request :wink: !) that I might find it interesting to try to stay pretty much on the spot while spinning ... and it showed me that the consequence of that was that he hasn't got to go 'after me' all the time and that it would improve our dancing together.

So my advice would be to try to find a way to tell / show the lady that smaller steps might actually help her dancing a lot. If you think that she's keen on feedback and want to improve then you may tell her directly, otherwise you may involve a taxi / teacher or as LMC said give her a hint...

[David Bailey]

Ahem, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but DJ isn't a DJ... :rolleyes:
:confused: :tears:
I dunno, give a girl a DJ spot and she forgets all her friends... :sad:
:na:

[Trish]

Just a thought, but what makes you think these ladies are good dancers? Sounds to me, as has already been said, as though they're yankers! I personally find it difficult leading girls who take long strides, and spin off to the side all the time (this sounds like what they're doing), often if I try to reign them in, I end up yanking my shoulder. I generally try to follow them, even if they go in circles, and keep the tension constant, so they can't yank at the end of their step. It sometimes gets you dizzy (in which case I'll swap to a walking up and down type move rather than round and round), but it's better than getting an injury.

I would say, if you watch them dance with other guys and they dance well with them, then either watch this couple intently and pick up what the other guy is doing, or talk to him when he's finished dancing with her. They could probably give you some good tips, and may actually also sympathise with your plight! It maybe that most guys find difficulty with leading these girls, even though they look stylish or whatever. And do tell these girls - tell them they would find it easier if they spin straight, and tell them they're taking too big a step. John Sweeney told me I was taking too big steps when I first started dancing, and although I was a bit miffed with him at the time, I came to the conclusion he was right, and did something about it - I would now like to thank him!!

[Ghost]

Just a thought, but what makes you think these ladies are good dancers?
Experience. I know I sound evasive, but just ask Gadget - I'm profoundly bad at expressing complicated concepts in text. :blush:


I would say, if you watch them dance with other guys and they dance well with them, then either watch this couple intently and pick up what the other guy is doing, or talk to him when he's finished dancing with her.
I've considered this. but it would need to be someone who isn't reigning them in, which could mean stalking them all night. :blush:

:worthy: to the concept of asking the guy though, I do like that.

Thanks
Christopher

[Gadget]

:worthy: to the concept of asking the guy though, I do like that. I can recommend it - I've been asked how to dance with someone who was probably the worst dancer I have ever danced with; it made me think.

{not sure if I helped, but I did get to try a few techniques to see what worked :whistle::D}

[Jeremy]

Experience. I know I sound evasive, but just ask Gadget - I'm profoundly bad at expressing complicated concepts in text. :blush:


I've considered this. but it would need to be someone who isn't reigning them in, which could mean stalking them all night. :blush:

:worthy: to the concept of asking the guy though, I do like that.

Thanks
Christopher

One thing I've noticed in a few beginners (rarely seems to happen at intermediate or higher levels) is they so seem to dance at extreme arms length. I think this is often that they arent used to partner dancing yet and feel their personal space is invaded. They will do the move then retreat to a comfortable distance (extreme arms length).

One method I've found for keeping them closer is to use the other hand (when using a one hand connection) to slow them on the back of the shoulder or similar but obviously this only works for some moves. For a double hand grip I keep my arms fairly bent (elbows to my side) while they are flying out then ease them out slowly to take up the tension from their momentum.

[tsh]

One thing I've noticed in a few beginners (rarely seems to happen at intermediate or higher levels) is they so seem to dance at extreme arms length. I think this is often that they arent used to partner dancing yet and feel their personal space is invaded. They will do the move then retreat to a comfortable distance (extreme arms length).


I'd disagree with the reasoning here, based on last weekend's experience at a Lindy camp, where we had some outstanding followers explaining as they were moving round the classes as a lead that almost all the followers in the class were failing to control their own weight and balance (to a sufficient degree to achieve the level they were trying to dance at - they were able to follow)

The over extension, I believe, comes from attempting to imitate performance styles and belief that the pull back on the lead is what is expected to achieve connection. It's a very difficult thing to explain in a way which works though, and saying 'stay closer' seems to have much more effect than saying 'bent elbows' or 'small steps'. Since the desire to dance too far apart was apparent with non-beginners (who were comfortable dancing blues and balboa) I don't think it's much to do with the personal space thing.

Sean

[Ghost]

The over extension, I believe, comes from attempting to imitate performance styles and belief that the pull back on the lead is what is expected to achieve connection.
Aha! :clap: Say for the sake of arguement that she's doing her part right - what should I be doing to lead a performance style? Or am I just soooo out of my depth for even asking this quesion? :blush:


It's a very difficult thing to explain in a way which works though
I can sympathise. Any attempt welcome, or if anyone else now recognises what we're talking about - helpful suggestions welcomed.

Thanks
Christopher

[tsh]

Aha! :clap: Say for the sake of arguement that she's doing her part right - what should I be doing to lead a performance style? Or am I just soooo out of my depth for even asking this quesion? :blush:


I think you probably read more into what I said than I intended. What I was suggesting is that the ladies may be doing things badly because they've seen somebody in a competition doing something that looks like what they're doing. Just because a move looks big doesn't necessarily mean that there is any more movement at the point of connection, and if there is a genuine need then it might not be coreographed, but you both need to understand what is happening.
See the video clips on Peter Loggins (http://www.caljazzdance.com/video.htm) site for some examples where there's a significant level of counterbalance involved. He was trying to teach us to be as lazy as possible and minimise the effort we put into our leading :D

Sean

[Ghost]

I think you probably read more into what I said than I intended.
Yeah, I'm an optimist :rofl:


you both need to understand what is happening.
It occurred to me that this might be a sleight of hand thing, where it looks lke she's doing one thing, so I'm compensating and messing it up, ie it's me who doesn't understand


See the video clips on Peter Loggins (http://www.caljazzdance.com/video.htm)
Ah very helpful, though it crashes Netscape :tears:

What I noticed from the first video "videoscratch"
The guys are bent over forwards - I always stay pretty much upright.
There's some sneaky ballet type stuff designed to make the moves look longer (you know the splits leap where the dancer just seems to hang in the air for a bit? See Elektra in the movie Daredevil, towards the end jumping buildings :worthy: )
They're bleeding off a truck-load of momentum with the acrobatics - I'll need to put it somewhere else
They're using the wacky physics I was talking about earlier.



He was trying to teach us to be as lazy as possible and minimise the effort we put into our leading :D
If that clip is of lazy people, what on earth are the energetic ones like?!

Seriously though, this was very helpful :cheers:

Thanks
Christopher

[Whitebeard]

Ah very helpful, though it crashes Netscape

And ties MSIE's knickers up in knots too !

[tsh]

Just for clarification, this is american jazz dancing, what we call lindy hop today... The bending over is partly to compensate for the speed, and this is where the momentum is taken up. The hand stops first, then the body is extended away as on a spring, so it should still feel smooth - and shouldn't require the drip of death. I doubt this is what your problematic ladies are doing, but they might be trying to imitate a jive version - and it clearly doesn't work.

You shouldn't need to compensate in your lead at all - it's fast, but nowhere near as violent as it appears, and there is a massive amount of technique involved.

Sean

[robd]

This is certainly an area I need to work on. I think I take steps that are too large, on the whole, for comfort for the follower particularly on something like a 1st move walkthrough. It's another instance of thinking what feels comfortable for me (tall, longish legs) rather than what is right for my partner (generally smaller with shorter legs and a proportionally smaller stride). I suspect this might be part of the reason for my preference for slower tracks because it's easier (more time to react) to counter the negative effects of long strides in a slow track than to a RnR style tune and it leads to less of the 'needs binoculars to see partner' full extension moments.

Robert

[MartinHarper]

I am soooo profoundly bad at leading ladies who take large steps / travel all the time.

In this case, I tend to stand relatively still. I don't mean being immobile, and I still move out of the way of my partner as she passes me. The difference is that in a "change of places" move like a travelling return, I end up roughly where I started, rather than roughly where she started. This makes my partner move further, so the large steps are used up by the additional distance she is covering.

[Ghost]

I finally had a great dance with someone using this stye and used probably half the dance floor in the process :nice:

Musicality :clap: is the key
Just let the music dictate the ebb and flow of her momentum rather than actualy trying to control it. Match the moves to the phrases of the music and it becomes a lot clearer how far they're going and when they're going to stop.

Be Well,
Christopher