Ceroc Rules

[djtrev]

Last night I went along to the Ceroc Anglia freestyle night.
I cant say I had a good night-the music was not too inspiring and I just didnt feel "on form".There were some good dancers there but I did get the feeling from one or two individuals of "hotshotitis".Having said that I had spent the afternoon watching Norwich City lose again so I wasn't exactly in the best frame of mind so my judgment may have been a little blurred.

Thats bye the bye;my reason for posting is that I am led to believe that the teachers;not taxis dancers; from Norwich Ceroc are not allowed to attend any freestyle evenings put on by the local independant MJ operator.Is this just local politics or is this the general trend.

Either way,isn't this the most rediculous situation

[Andy McGregor]

This prompted me to do a Google search of Norwich venues. I found a picture which might explain why Ceroc might not want their employees to visit the competition. If this is the crew uniform and all the girls look like this I'd be going every week!!!

[djtrev]

Coincidence or not?

One of those is allegedly one who has been banned(she wasn't a teacher when the photograph was taken)

[Andy McGregor]

Coincidence or not?

One of those is allegedly one who has been banned(she wasn't a teacher when the photograph was taken)I'm willing to be her student :innocent:

[robd]

I look at it quite simply. Ceroc is a business. Teachers are its employees. Why condone your employees contributing to the profits of your business rivals? Teachers surely know the score before they take up the reins :confused:

[Dance Demon]

Thats bye the bye;my reason for posting is that I am led to believe that the teachers;not taxis dancers; from Norwich Ceroc are not allowed to attend any freestyle evenings put on by the local independant MJ operator.Is this just local politics or is this the general trend.

Either way,isn't this the most rediculous situation

Who is stopping them? Is it Ceroc telling them they can't go, or is it the independant saying they're not welcome?

[David Bailey]

I look at it quite simply. Ceroc is a business. Teachers are its employees. Why condone your employees contributing to the profits of your business rivals? Teachers surely know the score before they take up the reins :confused:

I think it more a "contractor" relationship than an employer-employee one - if only because quite a few teachers teach in different adjoining franchises.

And I also think that a teacher generally has a "sponsor", i.e. the franchise owner, who has dibs on that teacher's time for a specific period, in return for sponsoring that teacher's training.

So it's not quite that simple.

I pretty much agree with the general point though, teachers aren't punters, and should generally be aware that they can be seen as "on duty" at all times. Whether banning is "right" or not, I dunno, it depends on the circumstances I guess. But I suspect if Ceroc HQ tried to ban teachers in the London area from going to Hipsters or Funky Lush, they'd not be popular :innocent:

[under par]

I look at it quite simply. Ceroc is a business. Teachers are its employees. Why condone your employees contributing to the profits of your business rivals? Teachers surely know the score before they take up the reins :confused:

What b~llocks!:mad:

No employer can tell you where and when your can spend you free time or own money.

Dancing is entertainment for teachers as well as everyone else.

So if all the teachers friends are going to a local non ceroc freestyle are you saying that he/she has to stay at home or not go what rubbish.

If this is a local or national policy .......I think its CR@P.:angry:

Long live diversity in all walks of life.

[robd]

What b~llocks!:mad:

No employer can tell you where and when your can spend you free time or own money.

Dancing is entertainment for teachers as well as everyone else.

If this is a local or national policy .......I think its CR@P.:angry:

Long live diversity in all walks of life.


Can't agree with you UP.

It is entertainment for all but if you value being able to dance when and where you please then you don't become a teacher for Ceroc because you'll know it will curtail your ability to do that. If you play football at a reasonable level then you don't turn out for a Sunday morning team. Do the constabulary let you do private security work whilst you're in their employ?

I am not saying it's a position I condone but it's an understandable one.

Robert

[Cruella]

Sorry Rob i have to disagree with you too. So if you work in Sainsburys does that mean you can't do your weekly shop in Tescos. :what: As for the argument of UP doing security work, that's totally different as he would be getting paid for it, therefore it would be working, not his way of getting ntertainment.

[robd]

Sorry Rob i have to disagree with you too. So if you work in Sainsburys does that mean you can't do your weekly shop in Tescos. :what: As for the argument of UP doing security work, that's totally different as he would be getting paid for it, therefore it would be working, not his way of getting ntertainment.

Don't think the Tesco/Sains analogy holds and presume people working in those shops get some kind of staff discount (yes/no anybody?) making it attractive to buy from their own store. If not then I guess Tesco is cheaper than Sains but surely more convenient to buy from the place you work at?

I presume the reason ceroc do not want teachers (and demos if a story I have heard about locally is true) participating at other venues is that they are potentially a good draw for that other venue courtesy of their abilities and thus possibly going to take people away from the Ceroc franchise. As I said I don't necessarily agree with this school of thought but I can understand it.

[Magic Hans]

What b~llocks!:mad:

No employer can tell you where and when your can spend you free time or own money.

Dancing is entertainment for teachers as well as everyone else.

So if all the teachers friends are going to a local non ceroc freestyle are you saying that he/she has to stay at home or not go what rubbish.

If this is a local or national policy .......I think its CR@P.:angry:

Long live diversity in all walks of life.


Personally I'd tend to agree. Obviously what is contracted between a two parties, is their business. However, I see this manner of banning (if it does happen) of teachers certainly as crass (displaying an insecurity within that organisation), and quite possibly counter productive. Were I to have good (and happy) customer facing people in my organisation, I'd want them to be as visible as possible!

!an

[djtrev]

:yeah: :yeah:
What b~llocks!:mad:

No employer can tell you where and when your can spend you free time or own money.

Dancing is entertainment for teachers as well as everyone else.

So if all the teachers friends are going to a local non ceroc freestyle are you saying that he/she has to stay at home or not go what rubbish.

If this is a local or national policy .......I think its CR@P.:angry:

Long live diversity in all walks of life.

:yeah: :yeah:

Quote from robd
I presume the reason ceroc do not want teachers (and demos if a story I have heard about locally is true) participating at other venues is that they are potentially a good draw for that other venue courtesy of their abilities and thus possibly going to take people away from the Ceroc franchise.


More *******s!!

Quote from DD
Who is stopping them? Is it Ceroc telling them they can't go, or is it the independant saying they're not welcome?

Its Ceroc,certainly not the independant.

[Yliander]

I think it is fair to for Ceroc to say that it’s teachers can’t teacher for the independents – they have sponsored them for their training and while they are working for Ceroc it would be unreasonable of them to teach for an independent – trade secrets and all that sort of stuff

As to attending classes or social functions – no employer has the right to prevent you doing as you wish in your free time!!!

Actually I would have thought the independents would be more worried about teachers from other venues coming along and trying to steal their customers

[Cruella]

Don't think the Tesco/Sains analogy holds and presume people working in those shops get some kind of staff discount (yes/no anybody?) making it attractive to buy from their own store. If not then I guess Tesco is cheaper than Sains but surely more convenient to buy from the place you work at?

I presume the reason ceroc do not want teachers (and demos if a story I have heard about locally is true) participating at other venues is that they are potentially a good draw for that other venue courtesy of their abilities and thus possibly going to take people away from the Ceroc franchise. As I said I don't necessarily agree with this school of thought but I can understand it.
Yes the Sainsburys staff get a discount after working there for a certain amount of time, but equally Ceroc teachers don't have to pay to get into a Ceroc venue!
I have known this 'banning' to happen at certain venues, but not all. It seems to depend on the Franchises insecurities and lack of faith in their venues! I agree with Yliander the franchisee would be in his right to stop the teacher teaching elsewhere as they had paid for the training, it would be seen as moonlighting!

[under par]

Can't agree with you UP.

It is entertainment for all but if you value being able to dance when and where you please then you don't become a teacher for Ceroc because you'll know it will curtail your ability to do that. If you play football at a reasonable level then you don't turn out for a Sunday morning team. Do the constabulary let you do private security work whilst you're in their employ?

I am not saying it's a position I condone but it's an understandable one.

Robert


I'm not talking of teachers being paid to teach, I'm saying in their free time if a teacher wants to visit any other freestyle evening to dance socially then they should be free to do so. It is their time and their money so its their choice.
It is not the right of any employer to put restrictions on anyones private life IMHO.

Having 2 jobs is a totally different matter and I can concur with your thoughts re that.It does cause difficulties.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think it is fair to for Ceroc to say that it’s teachers can’t teacher for the independents – they have sponsored them for their training and while they are working for Ceroc it would be unreasonable of them to teach for an independent – trade secrets and all that sort of stuff

As to attending classes or social functions – no employer has the right to prevent you doing as you wish in your free time!!!

Actually I would have thought the independents would be more worried about teachers from other venues coming along and trying to steal their customersLet's see ... a franchisee pays several thousand pounds to train someone as a teacher, and then says to that person - I forbid you to attend so-n-so's freestyle nights. So the teacher thinks "f*ck you" and goes anyway. So then the franchisee's going to do what exactly? Sack the teacher? Who's going to teach for him? He's not going to get a refund on the training fees, is he?

[TA Guy]

This argument has been around for years and years.

There's always a contract to be signed between the teacher and any major dance organsation. Anybody signing the contract is fully aware of the restrictions placed upon them and it is their choice. It is a little out of order to complain about it later, even worse to simply ignore the restrictions. If you don't like the contract, don't sign.

I know, ten years or so back, Ceroc used to ban all staff from other organisations nights, including taxi dancers. I presume that is not the case now, even so, whilst some restrictions may appear a little draconian, when you are running a business that is your livelihood, you protect yourself. There have been many situations in the past where disaffected staff have abused their position. Modern Jive history is full of that sort of stuff.

Just because taxi dancers think of what they do as some light hearted 'next step' in their dance progression doesn't mean it's not serious to the people who run these things.

Don't like the restrictions in the contract, don't sign the contract. Simple.

[Little Em]

.....
well as for myself, i do go to other freestyles in my own time.(monkey, n others!)... not just ceroc ones!!! :eek:

but.... there are certain independants that i would not attend, cuz i know i would not be welcome... purely cuz i am a ceroc teacher. ( i am not naming those companies.)

though ceroc teachers are not made to be welcome at 'certain' companies free styles..... i have seen 'their' teachers at ceroc free styles...
though you dont see ceroc pi**ing in there pants about that do you???? or it certainly doesn apply in the ceroc central area!

but hey ho...... :whistle: :flower:

[LMC]

Just because taxi dancers think of what they do as some light hearted 'next step' in their dance progression doesn't mean it's not serious to the people who run these things.
I don't know about any other TD's, but at no point have I been told that I "may not" attend any other venue (Ceroc or "competitor") and I have not signed any contract. I have no intention of "progressing" beyond taxi-ing.

Taxi dancers are volunteers. As Ceroc is a commercial organisation and IANAL, I'm not certain of my ground here, but I can't imagine that the legal position would be that different from charity volunteering - Volunteering England (http://www.volunteering.org.uk/print.php?id=543) has a good summary. IM inexpert O, Ceroc franchisees should be very careful that they are not implying that there is an employer/employee relationship by imposing restrictions on taxi dancers or requiring them to sign a contract.

[TheTramp]

When I started out as a taxi dancer in London (some years ago now!), there was a contract.

However, it had about as much enforceability as the next piece of blank paper.

It didn't mention anything about not dancing at non-Ceroc events though, I don't think.

But did say that if you stopped being a taxi-dancer, then you weren't allowed to teach for anyone else for a period of time (6 months). Because of all the things that you learnt to do as a taxi! (From that one training session that we had in about 2.5 years obviously :rolleyes: )

[azande]

But did say that if you stopped being a taxi-dancer, then you weren't allowed to teach for anyone else for a period of time (6 months). Because of all the things that you learnt to do as a taxi! (From that one training session that we had in about 2.5 years obviously :rolleyes: ) Yeah, but I believe not even this is enforceable... it is like saying to any professional that leaves a company that he can't do his job for X amount of time because of all the training he received on the job.

[LMC]

But did say that if you stopped being a taxi-dancer, then you weren't allowed to teach for anyone else for a period of time (6 months).
Isn't this a deed of restrictive covenant? If so, I would have thought that this would imply an employer/employee relationship - and don't DoRC's rarely stand up in a court of law in practice? :rolleyes:

Volunteers have very few rights compared with employees. However, if a "contract" is in force (as opposed to a volunteer agreement) then the franchisee could be on a sticky wicket if it comes to claim - legislation on sickness, maternity and redundancy benefits, unfair dismissal and even minimum wage would all come into play.

A volunteer agreement is not contractual as it expresses intention, not obligation.

As I said, all this is based on charity sector experience. But I can't imagine that the law would treat taxi dancers that much differently.

[Paul F]

It appears to me that a lot of this old-school Ceroc 'nanny state' talk originally comes about from the experienced dancers who knew Ceroc many years ago.

I am certainly not a tireless defender of Ceroc - I will call things how I see them - but there has been so many mentions of how Ceroc churns out teacher clones, controls the teaching flair, does not evolve their formats eg. advanced classes, bans people from venues and so on.
I have seen none of these rules in my years as a Ceroc teacher (this doesnt mean they dont exist). What I have seen is a progressive company that is not scared to try things out. It is certainly not one that lives to dictate. Whether the situation in the past was different , i dont know. It sounds like it may well have been.
All I know now is that Ceroc is a great company which has moved on from the days gone by. I am confident that this idea about banning is NOT a HQ directive.

[TheTramp]

I did say that it had about as much enforceability as a piece of blank paper guys....

Of course they couldn't enforce it. Certainly not for volunteers.

There is a possibility that they could enforce it for teachers. But I think that it's highly unlikely that they'd spend the money trying - the outcome would be far from certain, and it'd cost.

There are a couple of cases of this sort of thing being enforced in the workplace. I remember there being one against wrangler or levi jeans or something that was held, and the guy couldn't go to work for a rival company. But can't remember anything more about the case, and could look it up, but I'm feeling lazy! :flower:

[Andy McGregor]

but.... there are certain independants that i would not attend, cuz i know i would not be welcome... purely cuz i am a ceroc teacher. ( i am not naming those companies.) I run an 'independent"* and if any Ceroc teacher or franchisee, or any other dance teacher or organiser would like to come to one of our nights they're welcome to come as our guest :flower: I regard it as a professional courtesy to make them welcome and to let them come in for free. Just send me an email or PM before you come and I'll put your name on the guest list.

*I don't see myself as "independent" any more than a small burger bar would see themselves as independent to McDonalds or Burger King. We run a dance class that's all.

[senorita]

What b~llocks!:mad:

No employer can tell you where and when your can spend you free time or own money.

Dancing is entertainment for teachers as well as everyone else.

So if all the teachers friends are going to a local non ceroc freestyle are you saying that he/she has to stay at home or not go what rubbish.

If this is a local or national policy .......I think its CR@P.:angry:

Long live diversity in all walks of life.

:yeah:

Your employer cant tell you where & when to spend your free time ....but they are generally not happy or agree with you Moonlightning..especially when it effects your performance in your main job.

Robd-Yes sainsbury's staff get's 10% off :D

[Lou]

I think it's just a local Norwich Ceroc™ thing. It's certainly not national policy.

I've met local Ceroc teachers, and the son of a local Ceroc™ Franchise owner, at LeRoc workshops & freestyles around here.

And I've seen LeRoc teachers at Ceroc™ & other independent LeRoc events, too. And, for example, I've had Ceroc™ friends visit LeRoc2000 classes who are amazed to see that Sherif puts out leaflets for other local events, including Ceroc™ ones

And why not? That way everyone wins, as you get more good dancers at all events. And there's proof it works here in Bristol. Surely, all that banning people from going to other venues can do is to build up bad feeling, negativity and exclusiveness?

[Andy McGregor]

And why not? That way everyone wins, as you get more good dancers at all events. And there's proof it works here in Bristol. Surely, all that banning people from going to other venues can do is to build up bad feeling, negativity and exclusiveness?:yeah:

[Icey]

Isn't this a deed of restrictive covenant? If so, I would have thought that this would imply an employer/employee relationship - and don't DoRC's rarely stand up in a court of law in practice? :rolleyes:

A restrictive covenant would be reasonable (in an employer/employee situation) if it is to prevent the former employee using trade secrets or client connections of the employer. It should not be of an excessive time period or geographical area. If any part of the covenant offends against common law, the whole covenant, as a general rule, is void.

The Taxi dancer question, as volunteers, is more difficult and I won't pretend to know what I'm talking about. I knew there was a reason for actually remembering this stuff from my law exam last year :rolleyes:

[bigdjiver]

I remember seeing the hordes of Japanese cars in Vauxhall staff car park. That factory is closed now. I remember seeing the pictures of protests at the closure of the Polly Peck stocking factory, with every employee in sight wearing trousers or jeans. I can see why a banning policy might seem superficially like a good idea.
OTOH I would think providing the right product at the right price is the right policy, and letting the consumer, even those that are your own employees, decide is the right way to do business.

[Barry Shnikov]

Sorry Rob i have to disagree with you too. So if you work in Sainsburys does that mean you can't do your weekly shop in Tescos. :what: As for the argument of UP doing security work, that's totally different as he would be getting paid for it, therefore it would be working, not his way of getting ntertainment.
The supermarket analogy is not a good one; a better one is robd's analogy of a football player. Manchester United are going to take a pretty dim view of Ronaldo going along to a Sunday league and playing for one of the teams. But by the argument put forward by under par, it's his leisure time he should be able to do as he likes.
However, I remember in Cambridge a taxi dancer was allegedly sacked because he was handing out fliers for his own birthday party because it wasn't a non-Ceroc event being 'publicised' at a Ceroc night.

[Barry Shnikov]

As to attending classes or social functions – no employer has the right to prevent you doing as you wish in your free time!!!
A moment's thought will show you that all sorts of employers will try to prevent you doing certain things in your spare time. It must be that way; as long as the prohibition is reasonable and proportionate to the interest the employer seeks to promote, why not?

[Barry Shnikov]

Yeah, but I believe not even this is enforceable... it is like saying to any professional that leaves a company that he can't do his job for X amount of time because of all the training he received on the job.
...which funnily enough happens all the time!

[Barry Shnikov]

Isn't this a deed of restrictive covenant? If so, I would have thought that this would imply an employer/employee relationship - and don't DoRC's rarely stand up in a court of law in practice?
A deed is an agreement intended to be binding and expressed in writing. It must comply with certain formal requirements.

A covenant is a promise in a deed, though less strictly a promise contained in a written document. All tenants, for example, 'covenant' to pay rent.

What you are thinking of is a 'covenant in restraint of trade'.

They are universally used, both in employment law and in general contract.

The test - as to whether they are enforceable or not - is 'reasonableness'. Is the covenant reasonable so as to protect the interests of the covenantee?

If you are a salesman for a financial adviser, you probably have a covenant that you can't go and work for another financial adviser when you leave. If that is for, say, '6 months' and 'not within 5 miles', then it may well be reasonable. iF it's for '20 years' and 'anywhere in England and Wales' it would be unreasonable.

But what is mentioned at the top of the thread isn't even such a covenant. It's an ordinary contractual term that you cannot, during the term of your employment, attend modern jive dances operated by non-ceroc organisations. That's a perfectly ordinary contractual term and as has been observed further up, if the teacher doesn't like it he can always choose not to sign the contract. I can't immediately think of a reason why a court wouldn't uphold such a term; both parties will be presumed to have understood their own best interests and entered an agreement on that basis.

Whether such a term actually has a beneficial effect on Ceroc's business overall is a matter for conjecture.

[El Salsero Gringo]

The test - as to whether they are enforceable or not - is 'reasonableness'. Is the covenant reasonable so as to protect the interests of the covenantee? I believe there is also a "public interest" test too, no?

[Heather]

Reading through this, I can see arguments for and against.
However all of the examples quoted regarding jobs, are what I would call people's full time occupation ( and I would therefore assume a person's main, if not only source of income) whereas a teaching Ceroc is really a part time job on the side. ( of course there are probably a few exceptions to this as I'm sure SOMEONE will point out to me).

Bearing this in mind,I wouldn't be happy about any part time employer who employed me for one or two evenings a week, telling me what I could do or not do in the rest of my spare time.

:hug:
Heather,
x

[under par]

However, I remember in Cambridge a taxi dancer was allegedly sacked because he was handing out fliers for his own birthday party because it wasn't a non-Ceroc event being 'publicised' at a Ceroc night.

I hope this never actually happened but knowing some of small mindedness that goes on in all walks of life I am sure something like this has happened


I am aware of local operator who banned a taxi dancer from another dance independaant because she exchanged tel numbers with someone in the dance hall. He accused her of trying to recruit dancers. This was totally unfounded.

This same operator is small minded and has also banned all other operators from his venues because.........? They are his competition!:devil:

[Lynn]

And why not? That way everyone wins, as you get more good dancers at all events. And there's proof it works here in Bristol. Surely, all that banning people from going to other venues can do is to build up bad feeling, negativity and exclusiveness?:yeah:

One local salsa teacher runs a party night every other Saturday. He is trying to encourage everyone to be involved so he gets other salsa teachers to come and guest teach the class at the start of the night and also gets guest DJs. He does teach his own class in the same venue on Thurs nights but he doesn't push it at the party night (I think he has even been known to take his own posters in the venue down for the party night?). And there is a minimal charge into the party which AFAIK is mainly for the venue for the organiser. The result has been positive for salsa in Belfast for everyone.

[stewart38]

The supermarket analogy is not a good one; a better one is robd's analogy of a football player. Manchester United are going to take a pretty dim view of Ronaldo going along to a Sunday league and playing for one of the teams. But by the argument put forward by under par, it's his leisure time he should be able to do as he likes.
However, I remember in Cambridge a taxi dancer was allegedly sacked because he was handing out fliers for his own birthday party because it wasn't a non-Ceroc event being 'publicised' at a Ceroc night.


Going back 10years at a venue in the south there was a taxi dancer who we heard was 'sacked' when he was seen putting a rivals leaflets on peoples cars outside the venue

The teacher made a valid point at the time (to everyone) that anyone seen giving out fliers from competitors would be barred (said in a nice way)

At the end of the day its a grey area

[Lou]

As this topic is fresh in my mind....

I have a pal who is a Taxi Dance in the midlands. She came down to visit late last year to attend one of Sherif's workshops. He'd got Cat & Lee in to teach WCS. She thought it was a fabulous day & decided to arrange something similar in her area, as no one does any WCS there.

She approached her local Ceroc Franchisee, who was originally OK with the idea. However, the Franchisee has obviously had second thoughts, as she's recently written to my pal to say that if she were to run the planned WCS workshop, the Franchisee would arrange that she'd be banned from all local Ceroc venues.

I was shocked. :eek:

[Lynn]

She approached her local Ceroc Franchisee, who was originally OK with the idea. However, the Franchisee has obviously had second thoughts, as she's recently written to my pal to say that if she were to run the planned WCS workshop, the Franchisee would arrange that she'd be banned from all local Ceroc venues.

I was shocked. :eek::really: That's appalling. Talk about how to throw goodwill and customer loyalty away with both hands!

All this banning etc gives the message to me that the venues who apply these rules have no confidence in their own night or their own product. It sounds like the actions of a business in decline desperately trying to hang on to customers. It certainly wouldn't inspire confidence in customers.

[Chef]

Last year a taxi dancer of 7 years standing was sacked and threatened with being banned by the franchise holder because they had asked around their friends at the venue to see if any other them would like to go together to see a stage show called "burn the floor - extreme ballroom". They thought it would be a jolly night out to see a dance show and perhaps they could get a block booking discount. The franchise holder viewed it as advertising an alternaltive event at one of their venues.

I don't know the taxi dancer in question myself but the taxi dancer that told me does.

Blooming heck. What next? Ask a few friends over for a meal one night and you get sacked?

Taxi dancing - high on satisfaction for helping new dancers but is it worth being "owned" to this degree?.

[Andy McGregor]

Last year a taxi dancer of 7 years standing was sacked and threatened with being banned by the franchise holder because they had asked around their friends at the venue to see if any other them would like to go together to see a stage show called "burn the floor - extreme ballroom". They thought it would be a jolly night out to see a dance show and perhaps they could get a block booking discount. The franchise holder viewed it as advertising an alternaltive event at one of their venues.

I don't know the taxi dancer in question myself but the taxi dancer that told me does.

Blooming heck. What next? Ask a few friends over for a meal one night and you get sacked?

Taxi dancing - high on satisfaction for helping new dancers but is it worth being "owned" to this degree?.I had a very similar experience with Julian Hansford, one of our local organisers - so this behavior is not limited to Ceroc. This was some time before I became a "Commercial Operator" myself.

About 2 years ago there was nowhere local to go dancing on a Friday night in our area. We were travelling up to Hipsters BFF once a month and going to the Friday Freestyle on Portsmouth once a month - but we needed more. So Sue and I organised a Friday night party at the village hall 3 doors away from our home. We didn't charge, we just invited our dancing chums for a fun night of dancing and silly games (RobC and I came 2nd in the bad dancing competition). The following Monday I received an email from Mr Hansford saying that I was now a commercial operator and asking if there was any reason why he shouldn't ban me from his venues :tears: I called him in a spirit of freindliness and got a very frosty and suspicious reception. Grudgingly, he didn't ban us but he kept staring at Sue and me when we attended his venues and we felt very uncomfortable. Eventually we decided that we needed to start our own venue just to have somewhere to go locally where we'd get a good reception - of course Mr Hansford banned us immediately :tears:

[Barry Shnikov]

I'd like to throw this into the ring.

Who thinks there are more modern jive dancers than there is venue capacity in the UK? What about potential modern jive dancers? And how about if you only consider your locality?

There used to be a Thursday venue in Southampton called BTC which was a) pretty shitty and b) pretty small. The dancefloor was the smallest I've seen in an MJ venue. The owners shut it down so the local guy had to find an alternative - he started up in the drill hall of the local TA. (Sounds 'orrible but it's not too bad.)

He must be getting three times as many people each Thursday now.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'd like to throw this into the ring.

Who thinks there are more modern jive dancers than there is venue capacity in the UK? What about potential modern jive dancers? And how about if you only consider your locality?

There used to be a Thursday venue in Southampton called BTC which was a) pretty shitty and b) pretty small. The dancefloor was the smallest I've seen in an MJ venue. The owners shut it down so the local guy had to find an alternative - he started up in the drill hall of the local TA. (Sounds 'orrible but it's not too bad.)

He must be getting three times as many people each Thursday now.Most people (not already involved in dance) that I speak to have heard of neither modern jive nor Ceroc. That rather indicates to me that the number of potential modern jive dancers would overflow existing venues easily.

[Andy McGregor]

Most people (not already involved in dance) that I speak to have heard of neither modern jive nor Ceroc. That rather indicates to me that the number of potential modern jive dancers would overflow existing venues easily.Somebody must be posting for ESG today. He's starting to make sense (and that post about mauve and bold on the Mikey thread was pure genius :worthy: ) When I go to my local TESCO I often bump into someone from MJ. But, even then, it's only one visit in 4. So there's one MJ dancer for every 4 TESCOs full of shoppers. And have you noticed that it doesn't matter how big a TESCO is, it's always full on a Saturday morning?

[Barry Shnikov]

Somebody must be posting for ESG today. He's starting to make sense (and that post about mauve and bold on the Mikey thread was pure genius :worthy: ) When I go to my local TESCO I often bump into someone from MJ. But, even then, it's only one visit in 4. So there's one MJ dancer for every 4 TESCOs full of shoppers. And have you noticed that it doesn't matter how big a TESCO is, it's always full on a Saturday morning?
Who the hell goes to Tesco on Saturday mornings?

[David Bailey]

I'd like to throw this into the ring.

Who thinks there are more modern jive dancers than there is venue capacity in the UK?
I don't think so, really - I'm not even sure it's a valid question.

Certainly, there are lots of venues around that can be used for MJ - all you really need is an enclosed space, once you get down to it. Good dance venues, fair enough, these are scarce, especially in and around London. But "venues good enough to run a week-night session" on, loads of them I'm sure.

And the reason I doubt the validity is that if the demand increases, the venues will be found; supply and demand. I doubt we'll run out of places to dance in the forseeable future. It's like weekenders - with enough demand, more venues suddenly become available. That's the market for you - it's like magic, innit? :)

But then again, I could be wrong - no-one seems to know how many partner dancers there are in the UK now, or 10 years ago. So speculation is pointless without figures to back them up.


So there's one MJ dancer for every 4 TESCOs full of shoppers
Or possibly the others were quick enough to run away when they saw you coming? :innocent:

[Lynn]

Even looking at this purely from a financial point of view - banning in these cases still does more harm than good. If a person is turning up to your event with fliers for the competition - yes, that makes sense to ban them - but to ban someone for organising a one off non-ceroc but dance related event? If the franchisee was worried they might lose a few customers that week who 'follow' the person to that event - don't they think through the implications of a ban? They are forcing that person to dance elsewhere on a regular basis and anyone who is likely to follow the banned individual will be lost as a regular customer. Or at worst, the banned person will decide to set up a night for somewhere to dance (as Andy did).

It seems to me to be less about good business sense and more about control.

[drathzel]

Even looking at this purely from a financial point of view - banning in these cases still does more harm than good. If a person is turning up to your event with fliers for the competition - yes, that makes sense to ban them - but to ban someone for organising a one off non-ceroc but dance related event? If the franchisee was worried they might lose a few customers that week who 'follow' the person to that event - don't they think through the implications of a ban? They are forcing that person to dance elsewhere on a regular basis and anyone who is likely to follow the banned individual will be lost as a regular customer. Or at worst, the banned person will decide to set up a night for somewhere to dance (as Andy did).

It seems to me to be less about good business sense and more about control.


If the night does not coincide with your night, or pose long term harm to your business, then why not. I know people from my classes go to other things and talk about Ceroc and my classes, through this then adding to my business cuz people want to know what it is, can i really stop them doing it in my venue. Although it does depend on the person and if they have only come along one night to advertise.

I would certainly advertise any charity nights in my area as i think it shows good sportsmanship! (also you can send along a few of your flyers and get some advertising in too:devil: )

[Lynn]

If the night does not coincide with your night, or pose long term harm to your business, then why not. I know people from my classes go to other things and talk about Ceroc and my classes, through this then adding to my business cuz people want to know what it is, can i really stop them doing it in my venue. Although it does depend on the person and if they have only come along one night to advertise.

I would certainly advertise any charity nights in my area as i think it shows good sportsmanship! (also you can send along a few of your flyers and get some advertising in too:devil: )Someone coming along one night to advertise is a different thing - agreed that's not very fair.

You have done your research, you know your market and what your customers want and are presenting Ceroc in a very positive way here. You don't need to try to control your customers because you have confidence in your product - and this will attract people to come along. (And I'm not just saying that because its you :hug: )

[drathzel]

You have done your research, you know your market and what your customers want and are presenting Ceroc in a very positive way here. You don't need to try to control your customers because you have confidence in your product - and this will attract people to come along. (And I'm not just saying that because its you :hug: )

:yeah: i think you hit the nail on the head there lynn. If you are confident in your product being the best one out there, then why should you worry. I have every confidence in that my night is one of the best there is, and not just cuz of the dancing or the teaching etc but because unlike a lot of classes in this area, we offer a social and safe night out. How many people can say that.

[djtrev]

As far as I am aware up until 2/3 years ago Ceroc Anglia was the only MJ outfit in and around Norwich.Its because of their decision to ban certain people from their venues;for whatever reason,justified or not;that there are now 4 other independants teaching MJ in and around Norwich.

[Andy McGregor]

Who the hell goes to Tesco on Saturday mornings?Just about everybody if the numbers are anything to go by.

As I've said before, banning people for being in competition is counter-productive. The local MJ market will grow if the local orgnisers help each other. It will shrink if local organisers start scapping over dancers and banning* each other for being in competition :tears:

* I do ban people for being pervs though - organiser or not :mad:

[Swinging bee]

What b~llocks!:mad:

No employer can tell you where and when your can spend you free time or own money.

Dancing is entertainment for teachers as well as everyone else.

So if all the teachers friends are going to a local non ceroc freestyle are you saying that he/she has to stay at home or not go what rubbish.

If this is a local or national policy .......I think its CR@P.:angry:

Long live diversity in all walks of life.

Hear hear! I totally agree..

Just who the hell do they think they are!:angry: The more I hear about Ceroc's strangle hold over it's employees the more determined I get not to spend my money with them! ..Just how many people feel the same way I wonder and how much do you think Ceroc is the poorer for it?
By the way, are the teachers etc employees in the true sense of the word? Do they pay tax? are they in a pension scheme? do they make national insurance contributions? Or are they in the grey area where all is cash in hand? I dunno has anyone any idea ? Just what constitutes a legal employee whereby there are all the safeguards of the relative legislation?

[Andy McGregor]

Hear hear! I totally agree..

Just who the hell do they think they are!:angry: The more I hear about Ceroc's strangle hold over it's employees the more determined I get not to spend my money with them! ..Just how many people feel the same way I wonder and how much do you think Ceroc is the poorer for it?
By the way, are the teachers etc employees in the true sense of the word? Do they pay tax? are they in a pension scheme? do they make national insurance contributions? Or are they in the grey area where all is cash in hand? I dunno has anyone any idea ? Just what constitutes a legal employee whereby there are all the safeguards of the relative legislation?I'm usually very critical of Ceroc, but, in this case, I find I'm defending them:eek:

I don't think this is a national policy. I believe it's individual franchisees taking individual decisions. That those decisions stink is beyond doubt, but I don't think that even Ceroc HQ would advise it's franchisees to behave so badly.

[David Bailey]

HThe more I hear about Ceroc's strangle hold over it's employees the more determined I get not to spend my money with them! ..Just how many people feel the same way I wonder and how much do you think Ceroc is the poorer for it?
As I've said on the "DJ's dancing" thread, this isn't "Ceroc", this is just the behaviour of some individual franchisees - some of whom, frankly, are, well, less-than-good.

It's one of the drawbacks of the franchisee system, sometimes you get people who are just predatory and aren't at all interested in developing dance culture - they just want the money. Of course, it's short-termist; the more dance culture is developed, the more money there is for everyone.

Don't get me wrong, Ceroc the organisation does have quite a few IP-protection rules; but neither is the organisation silly. But some franchisees are silly, and there's not much anyone can do about that.

EDIT: hell, Andy beat me to it, and he said the same thing as me :eek: - How weird is that? :what:


By the way, are the teachers etc employees in the true sense of the word? Do they pay tax? are they in a pension scheme? do they make national insurance contributions? Or are they in the grey area where all is cash in hand?
I'm pretty sure all teachers are proper employees, yes, with contracts and liability insurance and proper payments, and all that good stuff - that's one of the key benefits of being a Ceroc teacher, it's all above board.

[Andy McGregor]

EDIT: hell, Andy beat me to it, and he said the same thing as me :eek: - How weird is that? :what:Spooky:waycool:

[Heather]

And have you noticed that it doesn't matter how big a TESCO is, it's always full on a Saturday morning?


:yeah: :yeah: :rofl:

Heather,
xx

[Heather]

Who the hell goes to Tesco on Saturday mornings?


Lots of people by the sounds of it!

:hug:
Heather,
xx

[Jive Brummie]

What b~llocks!:mad:

No employer can tell you where and when your can spend you free time or own money.

Dancing is entertainment for teachers as well as everyone else.

So if all the teachers friends are going to a local non ceroc freestyle are you saying that he/she has to stay at home or not go what rubbish.

If this is a local or national policy .......I think its CR@P.:angry:

Long live diversity in all walks of life.

Just having a little peruse through all the old stuff and thought I'd resurect this little pearler...

Although I can see the point from both sides of the fence where a teacher is concerned, what about this...

If you taxi for Ceroc, do they have the right to tell you to stay away from competitors, independants etc?:sick:

I have my own ideas and opinions on this but am really interested in hearing eveyone elses. I'd like to think that everyone could just play together nicely, but I don't think some people would welcome that idea.:flower:

At the end of the day, are we not all here to dance and have a good time?

Answers on a postcard too......

JB x x

[Gus]

If you taxi for Ceroc, do they have the right to tell you to stay away from competitors, independants etc?:sick: Hey ... thats the oldest and best know trick in the book. I've been on the recieving end of that little pearler sometime back. Also remember one of my mates who taxi'd for a certain aggressive franchisee also being told something similar (long time ago though).

Thought all that had died out? Been at a few years since I heard of it happeneing. In fact, to be fair, I remember it was an indepedant club using it against Ceroc :(