Where does the hand bounce come from

[tsh]

I think I've been here long enough to risk starting a technical thread...

There seems to be an agreement that most beginners don't bounce to start with. Many of them hardly move at all. It's also not obvious that they are explicitly taught to bounce their hands whilst they are dancing (as opposed to catching the beat before starting a move).

My observation is that a larger proportion of non-beginners do bounce their hands (presumably marking the beat in some way). The question is, where do they get ths habit from? For the sake of this thread, can we assume that a porportion of this bouncing is un-wanted. The fact that it is not taught suggests that it isn't an essential part of the dance :devil:

Sean

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think I've been here long enough to risk starting a technical thread...

There seems to be an agreement that most beginners don't bounce to start with. Many of them hardly move at all. It's also not obvious that they are explicitly taught to bounce their hands whilst they are dancing (as opposed to catching the beat before starting a move).

My observation is that a larger proportion of non-beginners do bounce their hands (presumably marking the beat in some way). The question is, where do they get ths habit from? For the sake of this thread, can we assume that a porportion of this bouncing is un-wanted. The fact that it is not taught suggests that it isn't an essential part of the dance :devil:

SeanI think it's like tapping your feet when listening to a song (while you're not dancing.) Something tells me that people have an in built desire to follow a strong rhythm with part of their body - which leads to dancing. And if they aren't satisfying that need by moving their feet on the beat then their hands will do.

Basically I think it's a natural thing and you (some people) have to train yourself out of it.

[under par]

I think I've been here long enough to risk starting a technical thread...

There seems to be an agreement that most beginners don't bounce to start with. Many of them hardly move at all. It's also not obvious that they are explicitly taught to bounce their hands whilst they are dancing (as opposed to catching the beat before starting a move).

My observation is that a larger proportion of non-beginners do bounce their hands (presumably marking the beat in some way). The question is, where do they get ths habit from? For the sake of this thread, can we assume that a porportion of this bouncing is un-wanted. The fact that it is not taught suggests that it isn't an essential part of the dance :devil:

Sean

]Does the semi circle start on most moves create a hand motion that dancers find difficult restrain,.?

[plankton]

Surely it is a natural defense mechanism developed in response to the thought or indeed the reality of dancing at some moment with, near or just at the same venue as Andy McG :devil:

and on a slightly more serious note :nice:

Could it be a started as a response by the learner leader to

a) spagetti arms that makes them try and re-enforce the lead motion (in the absence of tension to give feedback) ?

b) trying to get feedback from a rigid arm

c) trying to block anticipation, or get ahead of it

d) its thinking time as a suplement to counting ?

and then picked up by the learner follower

a) to try and negotiate an agreed beat while maintaining spagetti arms

b) trying to confuse the leader :devil:

c) a way of building in slack to avoid being yanked ?

d) annoying Andy :wink:

the whole thing becomes a feedback loop that encourages the bounce ......

untill someone breaks the loop and suggests that the bouncy hand is hindering communication and all becomes clear (or you accidentally bounce at Lindy and get jumped on :tears: )

[LMC]

I think it "leaks" into the music from the 5, 6, 7, 8 - a lot of leads only seem to move their hands, not their feet when they are trying to pick up a beat.

I just *wish* I dared to implement Missy D's suggestion (which still makes me :rofl: ) of jumping up and down and innocently saying "But I was just following the lead"

Fantastic. One of these days, I'll do it :devil:

[killingtime]

Interesting post.

Marc was saying at the BFG that that "club" background dancing generally makes you thump out the beat with your hands (think of the way people solo dancing to trance). It also seems to be a subconscious validation that you are still on the beat.

I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for it and I'm sure I did it (and maybe occasionally still do). I think it does make a big difference not having it; a lot of women mentioned a marked improvement after I attended that (and other) workshops at the BFG and I think that was a result of putting this stuff into practice.

[Andy McGregor]

d) annoying Andy :wink: You can bounce all you like. Just not in the same county as me :innocent:

[Russell Saxby]

a galaxy far far away

or

the bottom of the M23 :flower:

take yer pick

[TiggsTours]

a galaxy far far away

or

the bottom of the M23 :flower:

take yer pick
What are you saying about Brighton? I learnt to dance in Brighton, we never got taught the hand bounce, but it infiltrated our systems too.

Stick the the galaxy far far away.

Oh! Now you've made me want chocolate!!!:angry:

[Minnie M]

What are you saying about Brighton? I learnt to dance in Brighton, we never got taught the hand bounce, but it infiltrated our systems too.

Stick the the galaxy far far away.

Oh! Now you've made me want chocolate!!!:angry:
:yeah: we never had bounce in Brighton :yeah: I need chocolate too :tears: (any excuse for me :innocent: )

[Lynn]

I think it's like tapping your feet when listening to a song (while you're not dancing.) Something tells me that people have an in built desire to follow a strong rhythm with part of their body - which leads to dancing. And if they aren't satisfying that need by moving their feet on the beat then their hands will do.

Basically I think it's a natural thing and you (some people) have to train yourself out of it.:yeah: I danced with someone who did this - never having been taught it or seen anyone do it. I suggested gently that he maybe should refrain and he said 'but its the only way I can keen the beat'. For him at least it was an instinctive way to keep in time with the music in absence of a regular pattern of footwork to mark time with.

I'm agreeing with ESG! :really:

[Cruella]

:yeah: I danced with someone who did this - never having been taught it or seen anyone do it. I suggested gently that he maybe should refrain and he said 'but its the only way I can keen the beat'. For him at least it was an instinctive way to keep in time with the music in absence of a regular pattern of footwork to mark time with.

I'm agreeing with ESG! :really:
:eek: So am I. It's a mixture of that, and as LMC said the 5, 6, 7, 8, count in.
I must admit to using this hand bounce if i am dancing with someone who seems to have no sense of rythmn at all. In the hope that it will help them find the beat!

How many Ceroc teachers does it take to change a light bulb?
5, 6, 7, 8! :D

[Baruch]

:yeah: I danced with someone who did this - never having been taught it or seen anyone do it. I suggested gently that he maybe should refrain and he said 'but its the only way I can keen the beat'.
The daftest way of keeping the beat is the drummers' favourite: biting your tongue to the beat. One guy I used to be in a band with looked like he was sticking his tongue out at you if you looked at him in the middle of a song. :grin: I've also seen dancers who keep the beat with their shoulders, which makes them hard to lead. Anyone seen any more weird ways of keeping the beat?

[DavidB]

I keep the beat in my partner. It is a lot less effort.

[Gadget]

{:what: anyone else have to read that slower?}

[under par]

{:what: anyone else have to read that slower?}


me I did....

[Andy McGregor]

I've worked it out (actually, I did it a while ago). The hand bounce is a sin of omission by the teacher. Dancers have a hand bounce bacause their teacher didn't correct it. Why the teacher didn't do that is a mystery - possibly fear.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I've worked it out (actually, I did it a while ago). The hand bounce is a sin of omission by the teacher. Dancers have a hand bounce bacause their teacher didn't correct it. Why the teacher didn't do that is a mystery - possibly fear.Yeah, but that's putting the cart before the horse. No teacher ever said "bounce your hand" - so you haven't said where it comes from in the first place. The thread isn't asking what should be done about it.

[Andy McGregor]

Yeah, but that's putting the cart before the horse. No teacher ever said "bounce your hand" - so you haven't said where it comes from in the first place. The thread isn't asking what should be done about it.No, it's asking where it came from. And my answer is that it came from teachers failure to correct it. If teachers corrected the bounce it wouldn't exist and we wouldn't have this thread.

[El Salsero Gringo]

No, it's asking where it came from. And my answer is that it came from teachers failure to correct it. If teachers corrected the bounce it wouldn't exist and we wouldn't have this thread.In that case, why isn't there a knee-knocking problem (for want of a better example) - the teachers don't correct that either. The reason is that there's no tendency for people to go knock-kneed when they dance, so it doesn't need correcting. So, why, in the first place, is there a need for hand-bouncing to be corrected?

You're a smart guy, Andy, you must be being deliberately obtuse. Which is a shame, because this isn't your thread to try to derail.

[Russell Saxby]

I've worked it out (actually, I did it a while ago). The hand bounce is a sin of omission by the teacher. Dancers have a hand bounce bacause their teacher didn't correct it. Why the teacher didn't do that is a mystery - possibly fear.

Andy are you alright?? have you fallen over and banged your head?? :confused: surely you meant to say

"bacause their CEROC teacher didn't correct it. Why the CEROC teacher didn't do that is a mystery"

Please don't let me down again :D

Personally, I think the warm up / essentials can lead to the bounce, and that there is a tendancy for the bounce to become exagerated during the in & out. I do try and demonstrate / teach it smooth & controlled, and give out pointers on frame / tension, keeping arms low etc.. but that will not translate over to everyone in the room. I will pay more attention than usal next week.

(but having said that the warm up / essentials is relatively new and the bouncing has been going on since way back when?)


Also, from personal experience using the above at the start of the beginners class very much helps everyone get used to finding and dancing on the beat.

Which is the lesser of the two evils??

This Tuesday I spent more time than usual with one beginner, trying very hard to work on the some of the points above - she did not get it... in the end I tried to make it all seem light-hearted. Why should she go home feeling as if she has failed. At the end of the day it is a fun night out for majority of people.. most of which are not on this forum and could care less about whether they bounce or not - GOOD LUCK TO THEM

:cheers:

[Rhythm King]

In my early experience, a lot of hand bouncing was being introduced by followers, who were trying to get the leaders into time with the music. The poor chaps (myself included) were in sensory overload and had only enough grey matter to try and remember the moves and go through the motions, usually at the speed they were taught. Listening to the music and adding rhythm only came later as muscle memory came into play, freeing up more brain cells for listening. By then, of course, the bounce had become part of the muscle memory too.

Only rarely have I heard teachers suggest to people not to bounce their hands.

[tsh]

Identify the bounce first, then eliminate it...

I was originally going to suggest that one of the main contributors was the way that moves are taught, with far, far too much emphasis on each individual beat.

This thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5069&highlight=numbers)
which I've not yet re-read shows that some people think that it's very important that all the beats are important, but in fact, I am starting to think that usually only a few are really significant. Trying to make beginners move in time to the music is, I am starting to think, an unnecessary complication.

Many of the non-mj classes I have seen place more emphasis on the shape of a move, and not so much time is spent dancing through to music.

In terms of describing the moves, many teachers use single staccato words for each beat, but frequently some of them are not at the same time as I am - either due to 'issues' with lead/follow, or they are not listening to the same music as I am. I believe this is giving the wrong message to beginners. If they want to move with the music, it will come. One-to-One practices can certainly help, but it does no harm to delay this until people have learnt a few moves. Or teach them some footwork, and allow them to ignore it. (unlike salsa!)

I suggest that the bounce comes from expecting too much from the beginners at first, and it's something which once started probably spreads quite easily.

To get rid of it probably means talking to the intermediate dancers, since they seem to be the keenest to persist with it. I can't quite bring myself to tell some of the more experienced people I dance with that they've picked up a really un-helpfull habit though.

Sean