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View Full Version : Jive equivalent of a West Coast 'Whip'



robd
14th-January-2006, 05:23 PM
Have been trying to incorporate a jive equivalent of a West Coast 'whip' or, I guess, Lindy Turn (?) into my dancing without a huge amount of success. I can bring someone in as per a first move, turn them round 360 degrees whilst moving round them and then send them back whence they came but the main sticking point seems to be what footwork the lady should do to make this an defficient and comfortable move for them. Partners at present comment that they are unsure what they should do with their feet at the turning part of the move.

Does anyone succesfully do a move of this nature? What tips can you give?

Robert

Cruella
14th-January-2006, 05:45 PM
Have been trying to incorporate a jive equivalent of a West Coast 'whip' or, I guess, Lindy Turn (?) into my dancing without a huge amount of success. I can bring someone in as per a first move, turn them round 360 degrees whilst moving round them and then send them back whence they came but the main sticking point seems to be what footwork the lady should do to make this an defficient and comfortable move for them. Partners at present comment that they are unsure what they should do with their feet at the turning part of the move.

Does anyone succesfully do a move of this nature? What tips can you give?

Robert
Really! i've never noticed you do this 'Cough Cough'
Seriously, talk to Paul H next time you see him, as he does this with me when we dance. I'm rubbish at explanations, but i'll be a willing Guinea pig for you to practise on.:flower:

David Franklin
15th-January-2006, 09:55 PM
Does anyone succesfully do a move of this nature? What tips can you give?Assuming I'm not completely misunderstanding you (your talk of turning through 360 has me confused), you might find it worth trying a whip with an inside turn exit - I find this the most natural version to "shoehorn" into Modern Jive.

Mary
16th-January-2006, 12:20 AM
I would say it is very difficult to effectively lead a whip out of the blue in MJ without first effecting the triple step pattern. I do WCS and quite like mixing and matching styles in one dance, but it is very difficult (without being psychic or with a known partner where you may be more sensitive to minute changes in the lead) to go straight into a lindy turn or whip without first anchoring or doing a small triple step before the 1. I would think that it can only be led if the lady is clearly led off on the R foot, so without an intro move beforehand then the lead has to place the ladies weight on the correct foot on the beat before the 1 of the whip.

It also helps if it is clearly slotted rather that done in a circular motion which makes it much easier to lead the coaster step in the middle.

At least this is my experience as a humble follower.:blush:

But in answer to the question, it can be done.

M

Gadget
16th-January-2006, 12:38 AM
Have been trying to incorporate a jive equivalent of a West Coast 'whip' or, I guess, Lindy Turn (?) into my dancing without a huge amount of success....
I'm not sure if this is what you want to do, but I think it's similar:

1) lead towards right side as per normal 1st move, but step in with the right sllightly while rotating a little bit as the follower comes into your side.

2) On the 'twist out' simply drop the left hand from left shoulder to hip height and use a rotating step with it to provide the 'forward' momentum. (rotate on R foot, left stepping through with followers) Should end up infront, but half off-set with your partner. The right hand should be providing a contact point on the follower's left hip.

3) Using the right hand for the primary lead and returning the left to shoulder again, lead the follower to take a rotating step forward as you take a rotating step back (move the right foot behind you) Should end up having turned about a quarter turn with the follower infront of you or slightly to the right.

4) Using the left hand as the primary lead, push down {similar to a turn-out for a first move, but more "forward"} while rotating to face and releasing the right contact. Aim to place the left foot so that it will end up parallel to the right when facing; the follower should take a full step back, opening up the move again.

5) With the momentum and movement from the last moves it seems natural to step forward with the right; - a shoulder slide, man-spin, step-accross, or such like feels right to end the move on.
Another alternative is to repeat steps 2-3 again instead of going straight to 4 and you end up with a sort of "rotating mambo walk".


I use 1-3 way too much - I've sort of replaced the 'step back and return' that seems to be the common 'linking' or 'reset' position in MJ with a 'step in and rotate'... I suppose it could be equated with a more "Cuban Blues" or "Jango" style of dance :shrug: I still call it MJ. :D

Jeremy
16th-January-2006, 02:39 AM
Have been trying to incorporate a jive equivalent of a West Coast 'whip' or, I guess, Lindy Turn (?) into my dancing without a huge amount of success. I can bring someone in as per a first move, turn them round 360 degrees whilst moving round them and then send them back whence they came but the main sticking point seems to be what footwork the lady should do to make this an defficient and comfortable move for them. Partners at present comment that they are unsure what they should do with their feet at the turning part of the move.

Does anyone succesfully do a move of this nature? What tips can you give?

Robert

There is a move called the First Move Momentum here in Aus that kinda does that but the timing is quite different and there is no footwork to speak of in the turn, both partners kind of spin together as one unit 360 degrees.

Also sounds like a First Move straight into a Quickstep. Again not quite like a whip but has a similar effect (can be up to 360 degrees and back to starting position)


*all Australian names I'm afraid - not sure what the local equivalents are. :blush:

Tessalicious
16th-January-2006, 10:07 AM
There is a move called the First Move Momentum here in Aus that kinda does that but the timing is quite different and there is no footwork to speak of in the turn, both partners kind of spin together as one unit 360 degrees.If this is the move I think you mean, which I have been led into by various Antipodean friends, then although as you say the footwork is different, it does indeed give the lady a very similar 'whipped' sensation (so to speak) - and is probably the closest to that I have felt in MJ without either lead or follow reverting to WCS. So Rob, if you can find a local Aussie (and if you can't, there are more than plenty in London), see if you can get them to run you through this variation.

Geordieed
16th-January-2006, 12:31 PM
What tips can you give?

Robert


I think the best tip of all is to come to a class learn the whip first hand and then adapt it the way that suits you best. There are lessons taught in and around London every night during the week. Even better there are workshops both this Saturday and Sunday that will take you from the very first steps to learn. The whip and alot more will be taught.


Both Cat Wiles and Paul Warden will be teaching. Both are excellent teachers.

Additionally, both Lindy and WCS have an 8 count whip as part of their basic make-up.

robd
16th-January-2006, 05:37 PM
Thanks to all for their useful contributions above. I don't think I did describe it very well (the mention of 360 degrees is confusing) and I think it may well be a move better suited to structured footwork such as that in WCS. Nonetheless I did happen to see the kind of thing I would like to do in action on a video of the Leroc 2004 championships and the move looked simple but effective. Mind you, given that the person doing it was the winner of the Open category (Gary?) it is probably not as easy to execute as he makes it seem :nice:

Robert

Geordieed
16th-January-2006, 05:49 PM
Sounds like a whip first seen by alot of people when Robert Cordoba and Deborah came to teach in 2002 and 2003.


If you have the RebelYell videos from those years it should be on there...

Lou
17th-January-2006, 10:13 PM
Thanks to all for their useful contributions above. I don't think I did describe it very well (the mention of 360 degrees is confusing) and I think it may well be a move better suited to structured footwork such as that in WCS.

Now I know I'm getting old. I've been taught it a couple of times in MJ workshops by RobC & Debi, and I can't for the life of me remember the footwork I used. :tears: :eek:

It's a shame they don't peek in here anymore. :(

Gadget
18th-January-2006, 01:57 AM
Actually thinking a bit more, I'm sure that the move I posted above isn't anything like a whip: Dosn't the follower exit to the lead's left on a whip? :confused:

Dave Hancock
18th-January-2006, 03:09 PM
I've got my doubts over leading a move of this nature with a random modern jiver, due to a couple of main points, firstly on the 3 & a 4 of a whip I think that the lady tripling is fundamental and someone just stepping as a double is not likely to end up in the correct position, secondly in general I don't think that the average modern jive lady would give enough in her upper left quandrant to successfully allow me to lead a whip, when starting to try and learn WCS I tried a few times to lead whips and they weren't really too successful at all and I'd recommend avoiding them, that said while in the States last week one of the teachers mentioned a lady who managed to get led through whips using doubles for her step pattern and while the teacher said she was amazed that the lady could do this it shows it is theoretically possible.

Chef
18th-January-2006, 03:33 PM
Actually thinking a bit more, I'm sure that the move I posted above isn't anything like a whip: Dosn't the follower exit to the lead's left on a whip? :confused:

Have faith Gadget. The way that you describe the MJ version of the whip in your earlier post was pretty accurate by my reading and clearly explained. :worthy:

I have been using this MJ version of the whip for a few years now and it works seamlessly on pretty much everyone I have tried it on. I learnt it from Nigel and Ninas classes (where it turns up regularly) long before I learnt it at Lindy or came across it in ballroom jive (which I really hate). The WCS whip is quite different in a few respects (in that the leader and follower have already taken a quarter turn by beat 2 in the WCS) but not different enough that they look like different moves.

The whip and their variations are really useful moves especially if you ever find yourself dancing to an unfamilair song and you get an inkling that a break is coming - what was going to be a first move can be changed to a whip and exiting in a sliding stop, should she choose to.

It's a nice move and well worth learning.

Geordieed
18th-January-2006, 03:43 PM
3 & a 4 of a whip I think that the lady tripling is fundamental and someone just stepping as a double is not likely to end up in the correct position, secondly in general I don't think that the average modern jive lady would give enough in her upper left quandrant to successfully allow me to lead a whip, when starting to try and learn WCS I tried a few times to lead whips and they weren't really too successful at all and I'd recommend avoiding them,
It is possible to lead a woman through a whip in the MJ setting described. It is a shame that you avoided learning more about the whip. Without knowing they are doing a step known as a coaster step there are women in MJ who will do just that. If you regard the principles of the pattern as per weight change and not footwork it can be done. The whip is one of the basics to be learnt when learning the dance. It does take a little time to learn but the teachers over here are superb. Also being an 8 count pattern helps for phrasing.

When dancing WCS there are rules that can be broken on the timing within a pattern. This type of rule breaking will come in handy to make a move work especially if you are putting it into a MJ dance with somebody who doesn't dance WCS.

Franck
18th-January-2006, 04:00 PM
If you regard the principles of the pattern as per weight change and not footwork it can be done.This sums up my views completely. Footwork is great fun, but relying on your partner to follow a strict sequence of steps, whilst initially easier, might also prevent you from learning awareness of her balance / weight distribution and momentum.
I was teaching a basket whip move on Saturday in Glasgow, and whilst not everyone managed it (it's not an easy move), it was perfectly possible to lead most followers through it without them having any WCS experience or expecting them to do a triple.

I think I'll start working on a Focus workshop on Whips and similar moves soon, so everyone can explore the concepts further.

Paul F
18th-January-2006, 04:44 PM
Kyle + Sarah have a video out based entirely on whips which makes interesting viewing.
They talk about weight changes etc. so it could be a useful video to get some ideas from.

Unfortunately their videos are all in US format though :sad:

Geordieed
18th-January-2006, 04:48 PM
Whips can be tricky little customers. I have covered whips in workshops and private tuition. I've even done a demo with Jordan Frisbee on a whip in a workshop. I still haven't mastered them as I would like. It does help if the guy at least knows what the pattern is.

It is a bit like asking somebody to cook a certain dish that they have never tasted but only might have seen in a picture in a book and try and recreate its' authentic taste without necessarily knowing all the ingredients or the cooking method.

Minnie M
18th-January-2006, 04:49 PM
Kyle + Sarah have a video out based entirely on whips which makes interesting viewing.
They talk about weight changes etc. so it could be a useful video to get some ideas from.

K & S rule :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

Unfortunately their videos are all in US format though :sad:

I thought the modern players are fine with US format :confused:

Franck
18th-January-2006, 04:58 PM
Kyle + Sarah have a video out based entirely on whips which makes interesting viewing.
They talk about weight changes etc. so it could be a useful video to get some ideas from.

Unfortunately their videos are all in US format though :sad:Thanks for that, I'll take a look online for more info.
Of course, I wouldn't be teaching West Coast Swing whips, only MJ equivalents, that can be lead with most 'random' followers.
I am looking at lindy, WCS, and other dances, where Whips (and similar variations) are taught to bring together a full workshop on them. Robert and Deborah were teaching whip variations at a workshop I attended recently, but unfortunately, as most of the class had never done any whips (despite being advertised as a pre-requisite before attending), they spent most of the time on teaching the basics again... Maybe WCS need blue and gold cards for workshops too :wink:

Paul F
18th-January-2006, 05:30 PM
I thought the modern players are fine with US format :confused:

They do but I didnt have one and had to buy one especially. Not that expensive (about £60) but its yet another silvery box that is cluttering up my apartment :rolleyes:

Mr Cool
21st-January-2006, 08:41 PM
I enjoy leading MJ ladies into hollywood style whips as well as the more sedate WCS whips, its a lot of fun not all can manage the footwork but many can and adapt quickly, at the end of the day REAL dance is lead and follow if it cant be led its boring LONG LIVE LEAD AND FOLLOW,Choreography is not dancing. :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: Feel the music and dance