Dance levels: "Card" system? [Archive]

Msfab

13th-January-2006, 12:24 PM

There's an interesting discussion in the " Gender Balance?" thread on www.cerocforum.com (http://www.cerocforum.com), which got me thinking about the whole "blue card / gold card" system some venues (most? all?) in Australia use.

AIUI (and I could be wrong) a Blue card is given to intermediates, and then a Gold card to more advanced dancers? I vaguely knew that - but what I didn't know was that there are separate "Blue Card lines" and "Gold card lines" in classes themselves.

As this post (http://www.cerocforum.com/showpost.php?p=41083&postcount=62) makes clear, the advantage is that the more advanced lines can try out variations, work on styling, and so on.

Of course, there are disadvantages as well...

So, do people think such a system would be useful in the UK?

Sorry, but I think is this a very bad sounding system.
The different levels of dancers should be able to learn/teach each other, other wise how is a not so confident dancer going to improve!
And who judges which colour you belong to?
Dancers that want to try out variations/style should be able to try things out in any line. And Im sure people wouldnt mind trying things out after the lesson.
I really dont think its good practice to label dancers, 'Oh cant dance with you're not good enough!' 'Oh no scary dancer, im not good enough to dance with them!' Its the perfect way to give people complexes!

I cant think of any good points to this colouring/grading system:confused: .

Has any of this made sense?

El Salsero Gringo

13th-January-2006, 12:33 PM

It reminds me of a salsa class I've been to, with four different classes going on in the same hall simultaneously, according to 'ability'. (although doing different moves in that case). The whole place is a snobby nightmare of "who's good enough to deserve a dance with me?". That could be because it's Salsa, but formally categorising people as soon as they walk in the door can't really help much. Unlike most salsa classes, it's very busy - but, like most salsa classes their beginner retention rate is about 0.000002%.

Also, mostly, people end up in the wrong class for their ability. Except for the top grade, which is by invitation only - and just you try asking one of those people for a dance in freestyle and see what look you get!

Andy McGregor

13th-January-2006, 12:36 PM

Are they the ones that danced to "I've got a new combine harvester":rofl: :rofl:

.. an' I'll give you the key.
Come on now let's get together
In perfect harmony
I got twenty acres
An' you got forty-three
Now I got a brand new combine harvester
An' I'll give you the key

This brought back many memories for me. When I was in my teens I had a job as a glass collector and washer upper at the White Buck in Burley in the New Forest. Every summer we had Adge Cutler and the Wurzels alternating with Acker Bilk.

I need to play some interesting music to get that song out of my head.

Have I taken this silly idea far enough off topic yet? Modern Jive/Leroc* is an inclusive dance. We don't need something as divisive as streaming.

*and Ceroc is a brand name for Modern Jive it's not the dance at all. How could it be when they teach Cha Cha Cha and other dances? :confused:

..Aahh yu're a fine looking woman and I can't wait to get me 'ands on your land

DavidB

13th-January-2006, 12:36 PM

This is very similar to the footwork debate. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages, and associated with that their supporters and detractors. Both ways undoubtedly work - otherwise there wouldn't be Ceroc in both countries.

I don't thing anyone has the right to tell anyone else how they should learn something. I just wish the choice of class style was simpler than going from one end of the earth to the other.

Our fore farmers of ceroc would turn in their graves if they were dead
You used to have to get James or Janie to agree to you moving up from beginners to intermediate, and then from intermediate to advanced.

David Bailey

13th-January-2006, 01:38 PM

Sorry, but I think is this a very bad sounding system.
The different levels of dancers should be able to learn/teach each other, other wise how is a not so confident dancer going to improve!
And who judges which colour you belong to?
Way out of my depth here, it's not a system I'm familiar with... But, the
"Getting a Blue Card (http://www.cerocwiki.com/index.php/Getting_a_Blue_Card)" bit of the CerocWiki seems to cover this - there's even an assessment form (http://www.cerocwiki.com/index.php/Blue_card_assessment_form) if you want to fill it out :)

Dancers that want to try out variations/style should be able to try things out in any line.
:rofl: I can imagine the response in most classes if I tried to introduce variations to the routine - puzzlement would be the best reaction I'd get...

I really dont think its good practice to label dancers, 'Oh cant dance with you're not good enough!' 'Oh no scary dancer, im not good enough to dance with them!' Its the perfect way to give people complexes!
You think those labels don't exist in the UK, simply because we don't have a card system? :whistle:

I cant think of any good points to this colouring/grading system:confused:
Well, except that it works for them - which, frankly, seems to be the killer argument.

I guess you always like the system you know, but it's useful to consider why it works there - is it simply because that's the way it is? - and whether it would work here. Innovation and changes aren't always bad, and it's a shame if people always think so.

However, one clear argument for supporting this system is that it provides a clear and transparent definition of different levels of ability, which to me is a damned sight better than our current "You been dancing 6 / 12 weeks? OK, you must be an intermediate then." system.

One of my many hobby-horses is the lack of support Ceroc UK provides for developing dancing beyond intermediate level, or for providing regular styling classes for those of us who want to develop our dancing this way. This system in Oz ssems to provide a format for this.

Having said that, don't get me wrong and assume I'm proposing this or even supporting it. But some open debate wouldn't kill us.

And if Ceroc Australia are using a system that generates good dancers (and they are, I think), then maybe we could learn from them? I know, crazy talk... :rolleyes:

El Salsero Gringo

13th-January-2006, 01:44 PM

One of my many hobby-horses is the lack of support Ceroc UK provides for developing dancing beyond intermediate level, or for providing regular styling classes for those of us who want to develop our dancing this way. But they are starting to, aren't they? There's an advanced class at the Jive Bar, another at Fulham Town Hall, and there are lots of styling workshops.

On the subject of cards: maybe if hotshot people *were* graded in some way, they'd be even less snobby about dancing with 'beginners' - since ostentatiously having a more sparkly card meant they didn't have anything to 'prove' by who they were seen dancing with? Maybe it would actually help things along?

Tessalicious

13th-January-2006, 02:03 PM

However, one clear argument for supporting this system is that it provides a clear and transparent definition of different levels of ability, which to me is a damned sight better than our current "You been dancing 6 / 12 weeks? OK, you must be an intermediate then." system. True - it's so frustrating having people who are convinced that after 6 weeks they must be doing all the beginners' stuff right so they can move up, when actually they haven't yet noticed that their followers are always losing their balance (must be her fault, right?) or that they're not actually doing the moves they're being led to do.

I went to Amir's advanced class at Fulham last night and there was a first-timer - yes, you heard right, it was his first ever night dancing - doing the Jango-taster-advanced class, including ochos in sway position and a gorgeous but very hard slide/lady-forward-lean/leg-sweep thing. Funnily enough he found it a bit tricky :rolleyes:

Lynn

13th-January-2006, 02:27 PM

Not sure what I think about this, I'm not totally for it or against it. Personally I do like the idea of some sort of 'standard' to measure my own ability up to. But I also love the 'dance with anyone' attitude of MJ (OK, most of MJ, most of the time).

I do think that for workshops, there should be some method of measuring ability to ensure the person is of an ability level where they can do the workshop. If someone isn't at the right level for a workshop then others get frustrated with them and the individual gets discouraged, and doesn't really benefit very much.

Chef

13th-January-2006, 02:31 PM

I seem to have been taking exams all my life (just took another one yesterday). Some people are put off by the pressure of having to learn something and then being judged. I have always felt the pressure of having to perform well in an exam and the relief when all has been passed satisfacorily. I have also felt the disappointment and feeling of failure when I haven't passed an exam but that has only made me more determined and focussed if I have the opportunity for doing a retake.

For me, exams work well. They lay out what knowledge or skills I need to obtain and have an objective set of tests to show that I have done so satisfactorily. They focus my mind wonderfully on the task ahead and provide a deadline that keeps my mind focussed.

So for me I think this "blue card" system would have worked well. I do understand that there are some people that are not like me and react very badly to the stress of examinations of any type and that stress stops them being able to perform to the best of their abilities. I don't think the pass/fail critera have to be very high in the first instance since the first level should be looking at stopping people being reckless with the safety of their partner, those around them and themselves. At least this is what the blue card assesment form refered to in earlier posts looks like to me.

MJ has a reputation for being fun and acessable and this is partly achieved by refusing to discriminate on the grounds of ability. So we can have the situation where a person who has never danced a step in their life can ligitimately plonk themselves in an advanced class.

MJ is the only enviroment where I have not been put into abilty streams since school at the age of about 12 or graded at the end of the course.

Msfab

13th-January-2006, 02:44 PM

:rofl: I can imagine the response in most classes if I tried to introduce variations to the routine - puzzlement would be the best reaction I'd get...

You think those labels don't exist in the UK, simply because we don't have a card system? :whistle:
Well its obviously a silly variation to be doing then!:rolleyes:

I assume youre talking about hotshots and alike? I know it does, but its not good and we complain about it. So is making it offical any better?

One of my many hobby-horses is the lack of support Ceroc UK provides for developing dancing beyond intermediate level, or for providing regular styling classes for those of us who want to develop our dancing this way. This system in Oz ssems to provide a format for this.

There are plenty of workshops from various teachers you can go to to improve/develop your dancing - you dont have to have coloured cards for that!

And if Ceroc Australia are using a system that generates good dancers (and they are, I think), then maybe we could learn from them? I know, crazy talk... :rolleyes:

It depends what your definition of good dancers is? When I was over there (sydney and melbourne), I didnt think they were any better than the lovely dancers in the UK. I found, We over here like to enjoy our dancing whereas in Oz its mostly about competition (pleasing the crowd!) This is only my opinion

If you really want to be graded, there are plently of competitions you could enter to compare yourself with others and assess your dancing ability!

timbp

13th-January-2006, 03:03 PM

Correction: blue card is not intermediate, it is intermediate/advanced

Intermediate is still "done at least 8 weeks of classes and able to confidently and competenly freestyle", and is self-assessed by the student.

Criteria for a blue card are on the ceroc wiki, and in several threads on the Australian forum. Having a blue card is required for learning some routines, and may be required for some workshops.
I don't know the criteria for Gold card, and it will be a long time before I need to worry about them.

For classes, most venues have an I/A class once a month (one venue has it 3 times a month). At these classes there are two rotations: blue card and non blue card. The classes are taught at the I/A level, with advice for simplifying the moves for the non blue card line (for example, a normal class might have a single spin and the teacher will say "more advanced dancers can try a double spin". I/A classes would have a double spin, and the teacher would say "non-blue dancers can do a single spin").

Advantage: at an I/A class those in the blue card line know that they are dancing with people capable of doing the routine; they don't have to worry that their partner just came up from beginners last week. This makes it easier for them to learn the move and any style taught with it.
Disadvantage: one major advantage of the rotation system (in my view) iis that less experienced dancers get to try the move with people who know and can do it. The blue card system takes those dancers into a separate group just when a more difficult routine (for which the less experienced dancers most need help) is being taught.

I do not have a blue card. I hate performing, and dancing with a teacher to get a blue card comes under the category of performing for me. Most of the time I have no trouble with the I/A routine in the non-blue line. When I do have trouble, I usually know it's my problem and work on trying to fix the problem. In one class I felt the only reason I couldn't get the routine was because I had partners who weren't capable of it. At that time I complained on the Australian forum. The general response was that I should just get my blue card.

Overall, I don't like the blue card system. Firstly, I hate the idea of having to ask a teacher to judge my dancing (that's just a personal foible. I realise other people would have no problem with it). Secondly, I think it is better for everyone to dance with people of all levels, and the separate blue card rotation prevents this.

I think I/A classes should be advertised as I/A, taught at I/A level, but with only one rotation and let people choose whether they should attend (this assumes that [as in Sydney] there is more than one ceroc venue each night, so people do have a choice of venues).

David Bailey

13th-January-2006, 03:55 PM

I assume youre talking about hotshots and alike? I know it does, but its not good and we complain about it. So is making it offical any better?
I'm just talking about classes and other learning environments - I think maybe you're talking about freestyles? If you think I support any labelling system or segregation system in freestyles, I can only surmise you've missed the several hundred rants I've had about how much I dislike this sort of thing...

There are plenty of workshops from various teachers you can go to to improve/develop your dancing - you dont have to have coloured cards for that!
But I want a pretty coloured card :(
And a pony.

Seriously, as ESG also pointed out, advanced classes are springing up - but they're not standardised and not spread out, so unless you live in a good patch, you're likely to miss out.

It depends what your definition of good dancers is? When I was over there (sydney and melbourne), I didnt think they were any better than the lovely dancers in the UK.
Fair enough, but I've seen nothing to indicate that they're any worse either, which is what my statement said.

If you really want to be graded, there are plently of competitions you could enter to compare yourself with others and assess your dancing ability!
Yep, I'm a well-known big fan of competitions in MJ, I think they're just great - ask anyone.

Correction: blue card is not intermediate, it is intermediate/advanced

{ snip other useful information }
Thanks - it's good to have someone with actual knowledge contribute (rather than me, as I'm pretty much just making it up as I go).

(for example, a normal class might have a single spin and the teacher will say "more advanced dancers can try a double spin".
Or possibly "more advanced dancers can try doing it better" :whistle: :devil:

At that time I complained on the Australian forum. The general response was that I should just get my blue card.
From that I assume that the card system is reasonably well-accepted in Australia?

LMC

13th-January-2006, 04:08 PM

I'm another "no" when it comes to cards, but as I've said before, better assessment than "has been dancing 6 weeks" is needed - even encouraging a culture where people ask the teacher before they 'move up' would be an improvement.

I'm not convinced that the "new night" at the JB will address the issue of provision for more experience dancers. AIUI, the evening will be an intermediate class followed by an advanced class.

Once a month, Stevenage follows this format, and I hate it - the advanced class is just another intermediate class with more difficult moves, some of which are dangerous when performed by some people who do not have the skills/experience necessary. I would include myself in those numbers for the drop that Adam saw fit to teach in the last advanced class that he conducted at Stevenage (I bailed and watched - it was scary - most of the people in the class were simply not up to it). No technique/style pointers are included - it's just more moves.

I hope the Jive Bar Wednesday nights are not going to be like that - it's pointless. More style/safety/technique needs to be taught in regular classes. Unfortunately, although they are, as ESG says, readily available, weekend workshops have a very low attendance.

David Bailey

13th-January-2006, 04:53 PM

I don't care about cards per se, and I dunno if such a system would work in the UK.

As MsFab point out, the Australian system is (from what I can tell) based around a "career progression", the end point of which is competing and winning competitions.

But whilst I'm not a big fan of that particular path, at least there is a path, and dancers are encouraged to develop at all levels. Rather than the attitude of some franchisees over here, which has been expressed as "Don't bother with the advanced dancers, they'll only go over to salsa once they're bored anyway."

DavidB

13th-January-2006, 05:08 PM

the end point of which is competing and winning competitions. David - you had been doing so well. You hadn't had a go at competitions for a few days now.

stewart38

13th-January-2006, 05:10 PM

.

Once a month, Stevenage follows this format, and I hate it - the advanced class is just another intermediate class with more difficult moves, some of which are dangerous when performed by some people who do not have the skills/experience necessary. I would include myself in those numbers for the drop that Adam saw fit to teach in the last advanced class that he conducted at Stevenage (I bailed and watched - it was scary - most of the people in the class were simply not up to it). No technique/style pointers are included - it's just more moves.

Agree ,also

Most advance classes I've done are just moves where 95% of them you would need to practice with your partner for say part of a cabaret act. They have no practical use in freestyle with a unknowing partner

David Bailey

13th-January-2006, 05:17 PM

David - you had been doing so well. You hadn't had a go at competitions for a few days now.
I know, I'm very proud of myself. :grin:

But to be fair to me (!), I'm making that judgement based on

what I think is the consensus from the Australian forum (for example, this post (http://www.cerocforum.com/showpost.php?p=21714&postcount=2))
MsFab's comment "whereas in Oz its mostly about competition" - OK, that's only her opinion, but I think there's some element of truth there,
What people said in the "What is Aussie style" thread...

Andy McGregor

13th-January-2006, 06:18 PM

This thread seems determined to stay on topic so I'd better join in.

David James says Ceroc don't support you past beginner. This isn't entirely true. But David thinks it so this must be true to him. If you're not learning anything new my advice is to stop going to Ceroc.

On the subject of coloured cards I think they won't work. What we need are marbles. The better you get the bigger your mable. Guys carry the marbles in their pockets and girls pop them in their bra cup. You'd be able to tell how good people are by the size of their bulge :innocent: The we can say "he must be good, that bulge is massive" :whistle:

Soeaking personally, I can usually tell how good somebody is by watching them dance. All a card would do would tell you how good they were when they weren't dancing - and it doesn't really matter how good a dancer they are when you're chatting in the bar or takeaway :confused:

There seems to be some contention that Aussies are good dancers. We are pretty certain that the ones who travel half-way around the planet to dance in the UK are great dancers. But what about the ones they leave at home?

Clive Long

13th-January-2006, 07:39 PM

There's an interesting discussion in the " Gender Balance?" thread on www.cerocforum.com, which got me thinking about the whole "blue card / gold card" system some venues (most? all?) in Australia use.

AIUI (and I could be wrong) a Blue card is given to (ed.) advanced/intermediates, and then a Gold card to more advanced dancers? I vaguely knew that - but what I didn't know was that there are separate "Blue Card lines" and "Gold card lines" in classes themselves.
<< snip >>

In Japan they have exams, then place you in one of five colour-gradings for your competence in queueing for, then forcing yourself on to, the rather busy buses :devil:

Lynn

13th-January-2006, 07:58 PM

Most advance classes I've done are just moves where 95% of them you would need to practice with your partner for say part of a cabaret act. They have no practical use in freestyle with a unknowing partnerI know we've had the discussions 'what is an advanced dancer/dancing' - have we had one on 'what is an advanced class'? It sometimes is just more complicated moves, but IMO (and hopefully others) it should be one in which any moves taught are simply a tool to teach a technique, or to enhance your skill or style.

Clive - :rofl:

Lou

13th-January-2006, 08:05 PM

On the subject of coloured cards I think they won't work. What we need are marbles.

Can we have badges instead? Different colours to indicate the different skills we've mastered.

Of course, the ultimate will be a black & white badge. :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

This will enable you to sit by the stage, regard all other dancers with (justifiable) contempt, and allow you to be rebuked with those badges ESJ, DavidJames & all designed for hotshots... ;)

Gadget

14th-January-2006, 12:45 AM

My views on exams and qualifications to dance are well documented in various posts, but for continuity, here:
Ceroc Exams (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1123).
Basically, I think that it isolates and segregates. Especially new people, who are the ones you want to welcome.

I won't go over too much old ground, but :mad:grrrrr. Bad idea.

Re: separate lines of pupils depending on ability. IMHO This practice only has redeeming features for completely self-centred individuals. I can think on few better methods of forming an isolated clique :(

An argument may be put forward that the lower levels can look up to and aspire to be in the top group. This would give them a goal to aspire to and drive them to be better dancers. But if everyone in that top group was in a general class, then they may realise that they already arein a great group.

Inspiration should be drawn from "I want to dance like[b] them". Not "I want to dance [b]with them."
What gets confused in the lines of differing abilities is the assumption that to dance like them, you have to dance with them. If this holds as true in your mind, then it's a circular process with no escape.

I also think that the teaching would be quite patronising to the lower levels (or you would have to be a damn good teacher for it not to be). It introduces the concept that you have to be this good before you can learn style or technique.

Advantage: at an I/A class those in the blue card line know that they are dancing with people capable of doing the routine; they don't have to worry that their partner just came up from beginners last week. This makes it easier for them to learn the move and any style taught with it.
Grrrrrrr... so many issues with this...

OK, Why does it make it easier to learn the move if the people you are dancing with are judged "capable of doing the routine"? What I mean is that I would expect to get more partners backleading me in the 'advanced' line. I would have little chance to discover where the move could go wrong and what/how to correct it. Good technique should not be dependant on the ability of your partner - it's about you. (Although I concede that any 'style' being taught may be difficult to implement with a partner of lesser ability.)

Why should people worry that their partner is a (relative) beginner? What is there to cause concern or worry about? The only thing I can think on is loss of "face" or injury.
- In the MJ world, I think that there is very little a dancer could do in class to cause their partner unending embarrassment.
- Injuries... well, I assume that we are talking about an intermediate class; most folk by that time should have had the basics instilled in them and only a very small minority would have the possability of injuring you. {On this note I've started a new thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=191292)}

oh, just why, why, why??...:(:tears::confused:
<hr>

I only read about the first page of the Auz thread because I was starting to talk at my monitor and frown lots. {I post enough here; no need to inflict myself on anyone else :innocent:}

Gary

14th-January-2006, 04:29 AM

Sorry, but I think is this a very bad sounding system.
The different levels of dancers should be able to learn/teach each other, other wise how is a not so confident dancer going to improve!Absolutely! Mostly this happens over here, occasionally (once a month at most venues) we do something different.

And who judges which colour you belong to?
Well me, for one. I'm not claiming to be the best dancer or judge of dancing, but I can tell when a girl does good balanced free double-spins, follows new stuff without trying to guess/anticipate, and has good dip technique (which is pretty much all we're looking for for I/A girls).

I really dont think its good practice to label dancers, 'Oh cant dance with you're not good enough!' 'Oh no scary dancer, im not good enough to dance with them!' Its the perfect way to give people complexes!I'm pretty sure this sort of thing would go on with or without separate streams for some classes. Unless you're saying it never happens in the UK? :whistle:

I cant think of any good points to this colouring/grading system:confused: .

The main good point to my mind is that I/A girls get to attack a trickier routine occasionally with guys who have a much better chance of leading it properly. It's not such a big win for me personally (although I hear that it is for some of the guys as well).
The main bad point for me is that I occasionally have to explain to some girl what she needs to improve to get a card, and I hate disappointing folks.

When I was over there (sydney and melbourne), I didnt think they were any better than the lovely dancers in the UK. I found, We over here like to enjoy our dancing whereas in Oz its mostly about competition (pleasing the crowd!) This is only my opinion

How bizarre. There are only three or four comps a year, it'd seem weird to make the whole year be mostly about that. It also seems weird that we'd spend our time doing something we don't "like to enjoy"??

I'm another "no" when it comes to cards, but as I've said before, better assessment than "has been dancing 6 weeks" is needed - even encouraging a culture where people ask the teacher before they 'move up' would be an improvement.That sounds like you want exactly the system we have now, just without that final step (where after the teacher says "yes, you're ready", the teacher hands you a card (which is almost never checked for in any case)).

As MsFab point out, the Australian system is (from what I can tell) based around a "career progression", the end point of which is competing and winning competitions.
a) most people don't compete. b) those people who do compete often start competing as beginners, not as some end point, c) of those who compete, most of them don't take it all that seriously (although we all try to do as well as we can, I guess)

Speaking personally, I can usually tell how good somebody is by watching them dance.
To get an accurate idea of how well someone is following and holding their own weight in dips, it's better to dance with them, but basically I agree.

All a card would do would tell you how good they were when they weren't dancing - and it doesn't really matter how good a dancer they are when you're chatting in the bar or takeaway :confused:

The card (or more, the test to get the card) is not to tell others "hey, look, I'm good!", it's to give each person (who asks for it) an accurate idea of their own level. It's irrelevant to anything except "should I join the I/A stream or the I stream for these specific classes".

There seems to be some contention that Aussies are good dancers. We are pretty certain that the ones who travel half-way around the planet to dance in the UK are great dancers. But what about the ones they leave at home?
Ooh, much better :wink:

My views on exams and qualifications to dance are well documented in various posts, ...
Basically, I think that it isolates and segregates. Especially new people, who are the ones you want to welcome.
I guess it depends on what you call "new". Beginners won't even know about it, until they start doing intermediate classes.

Andreas

14th-January-2006, 06:55 AM

I think, generally speaking, the card system is not a bad thing.

Pro:
Most of us have been to classes when there were one or two people that simply could not hack it and the teacher either had to ignore that fact or drop a move or two off the routine. The danger of hat happening is bigger downunder because the routines consist of more moves. Having a card system for the odd 'special' class hence will make those dancers that really want to learn more complex stuff happy because a decent pace can be maintained.

Con:
The downside, obviously, is, that people may use this for a p*ss*ng contest. Due to the additional group you will have one more group that sees itself above others. This sort of arrogance happens everywhere, unfortunately even here in the UK, just not as 'frequently'. If somebody came up to me and said 'you have got the blue card with the red ribbon and the sparkly bits at the side, let us have a dance' I'd probably just laugh and walk off. But I'd do the same thing if somebody said 'you are an advanced dancer, I can dance with you'. Well, perhaps I'd show them that they can't :devil: But point is, the card system is not really much worse than grouping people in 'beg', 'int', adv'.

Yliander

14th-January-2006, 08:34 AM

The day they grade and or give out cards is the day ceroc dies :sad: with out clear development ceroc will die anyway

Yliander

14th-January-2006, 08:39 AM

*snip* The different levels of dancers should be able to learn/teach each other, other wise how is a not so confident dancer going to improve! surely those higher than a begnnier shouldn't be denyed the chance to learn in a class of their peers?

And who judges which colour you belong to? teachers of course Duh

I really dont think its good practice to label dancers, 'Oh cant dance with you're not good enough!' 'Oh no scary dancer, im not good enough to dance with them!' Its the perfect way to give people complexes! it attaches no more labels than are already applied - oh they compete at advanced I can't dance with them ....

Yliander

14th-January-2006, 09:22 AM

Personally I like the card system as it gives those that want it a way to measure their skill.

Not eveyone competes - in fact I would hazard a guess that most people don't and the card system gives them a way to have their development judged with out competing.

It is a bit daunting having an assessment done - I remember getting my blue card - I was very nervous - but am glad I got it - the teacher assessing me told me after he thought it was funny that I got so nervous over the blue card - when I really should be going for my gold card.

I don't think people use the cards as a judging others dancing ability in general - have never heard anyone walk up and say - if you have a blue/gold card I would like to dance with you.

I have enjoyed the advanced classes I have attended in Sydney - knowing that everyone in the line I was rotating in had a gold card or equivlant (being from interstate my dance partner at the time and I being advanced level competetors were permitted into the gold card rotation) gave me the confidence to try the complex moves only really worrying about what I had to get right. Given my chronic injuries and weakness i wouldn't have attempted the class in a normal mix.

The cards also mean that workshops can be taught - with an assumption of knowledge - if the workshop if for blue cards they will know/be able to to do x & y if it's for gold cards they will know/be able to to do x,y & z

These cards are something that people choose to do - and if you don't have a card it's not like you are excluded from the class

El Salsero Gringo

14th-January-2006, 10:23 AM

teachers of course DuhIn fact it's not "Duh" at all. Teaching and examining are two separate skills. Driving instructors don't judge your driving test. School examiners are different, usually more senior (or specialist) teachers than those teaching the class. Universities have external examiners to ensure high standards. So it would make more sense (logically, if not logistically) to have a separate cadre of trained Ceroc examiners to assess what level each dancer should be in.

ducasi

14th-January-2006, 10:33 AM

(logically, if not logistically) And isn't that the point? What value is there in training and employing people purely as examiners, when there is the teacher who can be trained to do it, and has already been paid to be there?

Jive Brummie

14th-January-2006, 11:50 AM

I can see the pro's and cons to this arguement but I'm going to stick my neck on the line and go 'pro'.

Through all the posts I'm not sure that I've seen any mention that despite the fact Australia have a card system, there must still be paying punters attending who go purely for the social enjoyment side of things...aren't there?

Competition in Aus is encouraged if you chose to follow that path, from beginner level...over here it's labelled by many as being something undertaken by those who feel they have something to prove. (Blackpool soon, the UK's premier competing event...get your entries in fast!:clap: )

I also think that if a class has a designated beginner/improver, intermediate/advanced line then it gives a wee bit more clarity to the teacher over who may need some extra help. To explain, at last years BFG, I had the pleasure of teaching an advanced class. Not technique, nothing to heavy or deep and meaningful but purely some advanced moves (as that was what it was advertised as). In the first class of the two there was probably just one person who couldn't cope with the moves, had we had the 'card system' this would not have happened. As it turned out I had to spend more time with this person than others in the class, overall slowing down the pace and potentially stopping me from getting through the routine I'd constructed. In the second class however, we had a room full of what I would describe as advanced dancers. Yeah sure, there were some problems but they 'got' the routine in such a short time that we had a chance to freestyle the moves we'd done and then ask the odd question about different things to do with the moves and even take a look at some more advanced technique type stuff. If you're an advanced dancer do you need to be told of all the in's and out's of a move or should you not be able to see them for yourself? This is a genuine query by the way not a wind up.

I also feel that if a card system was introduced, it wouldn't necessarily be the people utilising it that would be the problem, rather those outside of the system that sometimes unfairly label people in it as being hotshots or dance snobbish! Believe it or not most folks characters don't tend to change on the grounds of how good they dance. If they're arrogant or snobs they are normally like this from beginner level.

Beginner hotshots eh? Now there's a thread!

j.

David Bailey

14th-January-2006, 12:05 PM

David James says Ceroc don't support you past beginner. This isn't entirely true.
Absolutely correct; it's not true that I said Ceroc don't support you past beginners.

If you're not learning anything new my advice is to stop going to Ceroc.
Well, thanks for that constructive advice. :rolleyes:

Soeaking personally, I can usually tell how good somebody is by watching them dance.
If you can do that to a class of 60 people, sort them appropriately, and also teach a class in under 40 minutes, then I'd be officially impressed.

Again, people seem to want to talk about freestyles - I'm not, I'm talking about what can be done to standard class structure to support a greater level of "career development" for dancers in a Ceroc environment.

And the card system seemed to be one possible solution

There seems to be some contention that Aussies are good dancers.

Again, a slight misunderstanding. I said that I'd no evidence to assume they are worse dancers than the dancers in the UK - the implication being that a card system doesn't seem to have turned out Bad Dancers. I'm happy to consider any actual information to the contrary.

I'm somewhat surprised (only somewhat, however, knowing some people) to see the vast amount of negativity generated by simply telling people about an alternative system, which for all its faults (perceived or otherwise) does address an area I think Ceroc UK doesn't - providing good higher-level intermediate support.

The card system seems to help enable teachers to teach at a higher level, rather than having to cater for a range of dancers - being forced to go at the pace of the slowest means you necessarily don't give much to those with more experience.

I'm also glad to see this has drawn the Aussies out of the woodwork a bit :)

El Salsero Gringo

14th-January-2006, 12:23 PM

And isn't that the point? What value is there in training and employing people purely as examiners, when there is the teacher who can be trained to do it, and has already been paid to be there?Oh, no value at all - but I'm of the opinion that there's not much value in training teachers to examine people in Ceroc either. I just didn't think it was as dumb a question as Yliander made it sound.

To address DavidJames' and others concerns about providing a career progression, Ceroc (London) has been providing 'advanced' classes at various venues as mentioned, and while there are plenty of people attending, I don't think anyone's noticed an overwhelming tidal surge of customers towards them.

I just don't think that Ceroc in the UK attracts a lot of people who really care very much about the standard of their dancing. There are a (very vocal) few - and I say that without a hint of complaint - but I don't think most people would be impressed with or enjoy a card system. That's pure conjecture on my part, I know.

ducasi

14th-January-2006, 12:26 PM

Beginner hotshots eh? Now there's a thread! I was a beginner hotshot... :blush: (Some might say I still am! :really:)

Anyway, I think I agree with you James, after reading Gary's explanation of how the system works, I don't think the down-sides are so bad... But then I think I've always been in favour of some sort of system that would allow a dancer to know just how good he/she is...

I've been to a few "more advanced" workshops, and even a couple that were labelled "advanced", but I've always tried to ask the teacher or organiser if they thought I was capable first, before signing up/going along.

Despite that, I've found myself once or twice out of my depth. And I've hopefully always had the good sense to step aside and let the others get on with it...

Having some grading system would give me greater confidence in my abilities, would mean I'd go to the classes and workshops designed for me, and with something like the unofficial assessment form (http://www.cerocwiki.com/index.php/Blue_card_assessment_form) that DavidJames pointed out, I'd also know what I should be trying to improve...

It's entirely up to the holders of the cards who they choose to dance with. Even if I had a gold card I wouldn't look down on the blue-card dancers and refuse them dances – I'd just be missing out. Same goes for the full range of abilities from promising beginner all the way up to who-ever is our current choice of dance-god this week. :)

The only time I'd be interested in the colour of someone's card would be if I'm looking for a partner for competition or similar, where I'd want to team-up with someone of similar ability.

LMC

14th-January-2006, 12:58 PM

OK, Why does it make it easier to learn the move if the people you are dancing with are judged "capable of doing the routine"? What I mean is that I would expect to get more partners backleading me in the 'advanced' line. I would have little chance to discover where the move could go wrong and what/how to correct it. Good technique should not be dependant on the ability of your partner - it's about you. (Although I concede that any 'style' being taught may be difficult to implement with a partner of lesser ability.)

Why should people worry that their partner is a (relative) beginner? What is there to cause concern or worry about? The only thing I can think on is loss of "face" or injury.
From a follower's point of view, I'll take slight issue with this one. I am even more rubbish at following leans, dips, seducers in freestyle than I was 3 months ago, because my confidence has been destroyed by a few bad experiences in lessons (think I might need another workshop). It would be lovely to be more certain that a leader in a class line up is not going to "drop" me when he dips me, so I *can* keep my own weight (unfortunately, I'm not that good at dips/seducers, so there is a point of "no return" for me). It would be lovely not to be yanked through a pretzelly type thing with thumbs gripping on or in the wrong direction - even if the follower is not anticipating, when their weight is in one direction, that is the way they need to be led in some of the pretzel moves, or it hurts.

I disagree with separating dancers by class lines, as many have said, this is divisive and unhelpful to newer dancers. And the current beginner -> intermediate route that is Ceroc policy evidently works remarkably well - on a commercial basis at least. I have no problem with separate classes for advanced dancers - and if the moves are potentially dangerous if done incorrectly then there should be some means of assessing whether someone is capable. FWIW, I don't believe that I would qualify - yet.

Some franchises (Ceroc London is one) will actually say that they want you to have done a certain amount of dancing at intermediate level before you sign up for some workshops. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any means of "checking" this, nor does it take into account that some people can do two years of intermediate lessons and still not be capable of doing the workshop. If workshops organisers are going to "discriminate" on grounds of ability, it would be nice if they did it properly.

Perhaps there could be a route for teachers and some of the more experienced taxi dancers to qualify as an "assessor" - where they have a couple of dances with someone in freestyle and give them a yea or nay for doing advanced classes or certain workshops. Nothing pressured like being 'watched' and obviously voluntary on the part of the punter.

IMO, most punters would be perfectly happy without an advanced class the way they seem to run at the moment (more moves, just that they are more complicated).

TheTramp

14th-January-2006, 01:09 PM

One of the very first questions I got asked last year when I got to Oz, was why if I thought that there was a reason why modern jive was bigger in the UK than in Oz.

Looking around, at a lot of classes over there, the general 'feel' is that what is being taught is a lot more technical, and there is less interest in purely having a social night out, as is the case over here.

I suggest that a lot of people who come to modern jive in this country would not 'survive' in classes in Oz, and would not keep coming.

I'm not sure that the card system maintains this difference. But it may possibly contribute.

I'm sitting on the fence regarding the cards. I can see the advantages of trying to ensure that people are doing classes appropriate to the level of dance that they have achieved. I'm just not sure that I'd want to see it at 'regular' class nights. I think that those should be available to all, as they are over in this country. And hence bringing along people that just come for a social night out (you know, the people that we like to talk about and criticise on this forum!), without really wishing to become fantastic dancers. I think that one of the great things about modern jive (in the UK) is that it gets people into dancing, who probably wouldn't be dancing otherwise.

Like me for example :D

Yliander

14th-January-2006, 01:15 PM

Perhaps there could be a route for teachers and some of the more experienced taxi dancers to qualify as an "assessor" - where they have a couple of dances with someone in freestyle and give them a yea or nay for doing advanced classes or certain workshops. Nothing pressured like being 'watched' and obviously voluntary on the part of the punter.Thats pretty much what it is like - you speak to an appropriate teacher they dance with you - knowning that you want to be assessed and do so, based on the criteria - in addition if the result is a nay then you will recieve helpful hints and advice on what to work on so that next time you will get a yea.

The only pressure involved is that which you put on yourself *gulp* which was a lot in my instance

Simon r

14th-January-2006, 01:26 PM

I can see the pro's and cons to this arguement but I'm going to stick my neck on the line and go 'pro'.

Through all the posts I'm not sure that I've seen any mention that despite the fact Australia have a card system, there must still be paying punters attending who go purely for the social enjoyment side of things...aren't there?

I also think that if a class has a designated beginner/improver, intermediate/advanced line then it gives a wee bit more clarity to the teacher over who may need some extra help.

:yeah:

I would also say pro

Having taught at both venues that are now holding advanced classes, i would have to say that the vast majority that attend are just not advanced dancers.
A couple of points advanced lessons should not be about more complicated moves or routines, instead this lesson should comprise of tension, musicality,good leading and improvement of following. Once these have been mastered then move's become easier to lead and understand...

But here is the problem can you do this on a mass...

No i dont think so ...

I prefer to feel there lead to witness there following, it is so easy to follow instruction but to understand why is the real lesson.

A card system for me would be a venue driven system specific for that venue only and would just give a guide of the dancers experience and capability to comprehend the class they are to attend.

No other reason.

I have danced with many dancers who may well be brand new to Ceroc but have such great awareness of there frame and musicality that they can follow an intermediate class whithin two to three weeks.
On the other hand some that have danced for years are exactly the opposite,
Nicole feels the same with the male leads.

It would be good for the uk jive dance scene to have a true grading system which could potentially raise the profile of jive/Ceroc to be accepted as a formal dance.
But I think the first step would be a venue driven grading system simply to raise the teaching levels.

ChrisA

14th-January-2006, 01:30 PM

Amongst those that are so against the Blue card system, there seem to be some rather flawed assumptions.

1. That having a blue card means that you'd be less likely to want to dance with non-blue card holders in freestyle.

I can't see why this would be any more likely with the system than without it. All the arguments we have about hotshottism, would apply equally. There can be no more justification for not dancing in freestyle with a non-blue card holder solely because they don't have a card, than there is for not dancing in freestyle with a less good dancer solely because they're a beginner or deemed not as good.

I think James hit the nail on the head when he said

I also feel that if a card system was introduced, it wouldn't necessarily be the people utilising it that would be the problem, rather those outside of the system that sometimes unfairly label people in it as being hotshots or dance snobbish! Believe it or not most folks characters don't tend to change on the grounds of how good they dance.
The other assumption seems to be:

2. That for a non-blue card holder to get better requires dancing with blue card-holders in the I/A class.

What usually happens in a difficult class that is significantly beyond the ability of several of the attenders is the following:

- The guys that can't get it, limit what the girls (that can get it) can get out of it, since they can't provide the lead that the girls need.

- The girls that can't get it make it impossible for the guys (that can get it) to achieve more than the basic "getting through the routine" aspect, since they are incapable of following the more subtle aspects that usually depend on a good connection, frame and balance.

Now none of this says that there is no benefit at all to gain from doing a class that's beyond you, just that it's a very inefficient way of learning, and people would be much better served by classes that are only a little bit beyond what they're able to achieve.

I've been in classes where I've learned a difficult routine with someone that could get it - and later been much better able to lead it with someone that couldn't (and help them with the bits they were finding difficult), than I would have done if I'd done the class with people that stopped me learning it properly.

So not only was it a benefit to me to do the class with someone that could get it, it was also a benefit to those I danced it with in the following freestyle.

In general, I think the level of MJ teaching in UK is often very poorly matched to the level of its students, and we'd do well to address this.

Whether the separate rotations in the normal class is the best way of achieving this, I don't know. I think if we in the UK were to move to a more formal assessment system, it should start where there are currently advanced classes on offer.

Dreadful Scathe

14th-January-2006, 02:03 PM

Yes its called Ballroom dancing

Our fore farmers of ceroc would turn in their graves if they were dead :sad:

I vote for more incoherence :)

Tessalicious

14th-January-2006, 02:15 PM

I'm fascinated by what both Simon R and Chris A have had to say on this - which seem to me to be the most carefully-considered thoughts about how this system could be used in the UK, without the reflex 'oooh, divisiveness, must be bad' that some others seem to display.

IMHO, the minimum that is really needed is for there to be an informal 'audition' before taking part in Advanced classes such as those held in London at Jive Bar or Fulham, on weekenders, and elsewhere I'm sure. Otherwise it simply isn't fair on those who want to really learn something, or on the teachers of these classes who have to wait for one or two people to get the slightly more complex concepts. This is venue-specific, as Simon said, and obviously optional as it is up to each individual whether they want to do advanced classes or not.

To go hand-in-hand with this, to stop it being 'divisive', it should be possible to tailor a monthly workshop to those individuals who want to be able to go to Advanced classes, but were deemed 'not ready' by the teacher who auditioned them. This can teach whatever aspects are missing from the dancing of the individuals who are there, such as lead-and-follow, frame and tension, posture, etc.

A few people have mentioned that MJ will become like the ballroom scene with people practising for moving up a leve if this scheme is brought in - but I wonder how many of you are aware that there are already MJ medal tests you can take, related to the Ballroom and Latin medals? I'm not sure of the details, but I have friends who have taken these - and as far as I can tell they have not had much of an impact on the fun rather than competitiveness of social MJ. Why should cards to qualify for advanced classes, if brought in, make any more of a difference?

Gadget, can I just say to the idea that the vast majority of people in an intermediate class are past the ability-to-injure stage - :eek: - I need to come to Scotland!

TheTramp

14th-January-2006, 02:25 PM

I need to come to Scotland!

So true!! :flower:

ChrisA

14th-January-2006, 02:40 PM

To go hand-in-hand with this, to stop it being 'divisive'
This whole "divisive" thing puzzles me... I don't even understand why people think of it as such.

It's not divisive to expect people to do GCSEs before A-Levels, and A-Levels before doing a degree.

So why should it be divisive to be expected to learn basic, intermediate, and advanced dancing in that order?

Recognising where someone is at doesn't stop you having a fun dance with them in freestyle, so where's the issue?

The only reason I can see for people seeing it as divisive is that they don't like having to recognise that they aren't as good as they'd like to be - or maybe as they think they are.

Am I missing something? Is there another reason?

LMC

14th-January-2006, 02:42 PM

:yeah: x a LOT

I'm getting a sense of deja vu here...

El Salsero Gringo

14th-January-2006, 02:52 PM

IMHO, the minimum that is really needed is for there to be an informal 'audition' before taking part in Advanced classes such as those held in London at Jive Bar or FulhamWhat would you do if not a single person who wanted to attend passed the audition - and all those who are good enough aren't interested in attending?

ChrisA

14th-January-2006, 02:57 PM

I'm getting a sense of deja vu here...
Indeed.

Wouldn't it be lovely if we could have a disussion about how best to actually get people to learn stuff, without it becoming a trigger for all the axes that need grinding to be brought out.

I might add, as I think Tessa was suggesting, that if there are those that want to bridge the gap between lessons they can handle, and lessons that they can't, the quality of the teaching provision for them also needs to be addressed.

Lead/follow, frame, balance all become increasingly vital the more advanced it all gets, and mostly they are hardly taught at all.

The thing that got me on the road to starting to become a better lead wasn't doing classes with brilliant dancers at all. It was recognising that my lead was poor (and gawd - was that painful :sad: ), and starting to work out for myself (mostly in freestyle) what I needed to do to improve it. I'd have improved a hell of a lot faster if I'd actually been taught.

ChrisA

14th-January-2006, 02:58 PM

What would you do if not a single person who wanted to attend passed the audition - and all those who are good enough aren't interested in attending?
You'd cancel the class, and put on another one at a level more appropriate for the people that did want to do it.

LMC

14th-January-2006, 02:59 PM

I agree with Tessalicious, so since the question is on open forum, I'll bite...

First I would laugh.

Second, if I had any say in the matter, I would review what I was offering, possibly by asking the people who had "passed" the audition but decided not to attend. Looking at the Ceroc London website "There will be emphasis on musicality and technique" sounds a bit vague to me. I expect I will go along at some point when I'm not on taxi duty and 'investigate'.

David Bailey

14th-January-2006, 03:29 PM

This whole "divisive" thing puzzles me... I don't even understand why people think of it as such.
Me neither - as I said, I'm surprised by the vehemence of some reactions. I guess you can never tell what sets people off.

Am I missing something? Is there another reason?
Dunno, but if you find out, please let me know :)

Wouldn't it be lovely if we could have a disussion about how best to actually get people to learn stuff, without it becoming a trigger for all the axes that need grinding to be brought out.
Hmmm... how about if we talk about assessing teacher levels (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5218)? That shouldn't be controversial should it? :devil:

ChrisA

14th-January-2006, 03:56 PM

Hmmm... how about if we talk about assessing teacher levels (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5218)? That shouldn't be controversial should it? :devil:
Can you believe that was the thread in which the term "Harperlink" was invented?

Feels like a lot longer ago than that to me.

Franck

14th-January-2006, 04:46 PM

I am firmly in the 'no cards', 'no exams' camp.
I don't think the card system is all evil, and reading this thread, there are many good things that would, in theory, be beneficial to our current classes. The devil, however, is in the detail, and in particular:
The main bad point for me is that I occasionally have to explain to some girl what she needs to improve to get a card, and I hate disappointing folks.. Everyone learns differently, and at a different pace. Maybe half of the people who attend an MJ class would respond well to some form of assessment, they love to be able to grade themselves, need to have their progress formally recognized, etc...
The other half (ok, it might be 60 / 40 spit either way :wink: ) would resent the pressure and possibly never come back. Many would argue that is not a bad thing, but some of those people who were not put off in their first few months are now great dancers, and if we had scared them off, they would not be here.
As mentioned in the thread already, those that want to have some form of assessment are already able to ask taxi-dancers, teachers or indeed enter competitions, to find out where they belong.
Institutionalizing cards and assessment would put pressure on the people who dislike the idea, and I believe (not just guessing but from actual database information) eventually stop them coming.

MJ is, in my opinion, the last resort for someone who wants to learn to dance! By this I mean that if we fail, then they will not succeed in any other dance class as the entry bar is usually higher. I have seen too many poor beginners transform into brilliant dancers (sometimes after years) to just give up on them or introduce hurdles.

David Bailey

14th-January-2006, 04:52 PM

Can you believe that was the thread in which the term "Harperlink" was invented?
I just re-read it. Good thread, I thought (biased, moi?), despite the controversy. And, unusually, everything I said 8 months ago, I'd agree with now.

Feels like a lot longer ago than that to me.
Probably because that was the last time we had a serious agreement :na:

ChrisA

14th-January-2006, 05:05 PM

but some of those people who were not put off in their first few months are now great dancers, and if we had scared them off, they would not be here.
....
I have seen too many poor beginners transform into brilliant dancers (sometimes after years) to just give up on them or introduce hurdles.
Franck, this is the same argument we hear all the time, and with respect, it's irrelevant.

Nobody is arguing that the bar should be raised for beginners. Nobody at all.

This is about finding a mechanism for ensuring that people that are simply not ready for Advanced classes don't go to them, and thereby risk:

- hurting themselves and others
- getting bogged down in stuff that's too difficult, thereby getting discouraged unnecessarily
- hindering the progress of those that can cope with such classes, and would benefit themselves and others more by learning more in them.

ChrisA

14th-January-2006, 05:34 PM

On another note...

Let's look back a few years. There were no Advanced classes. Only moves were ever taught. Those that got to be advanced dancers did it by having a lot of natural talent, and practising with the in-crowd. Those without the raw talent stood no chance, since they weren't taught, and they weren't good enough to be 'in' with the people that would facilitate the skills transfer.

Nowadays, there's some advanced teaching for those that can cope with it (and the definition of "Advanced" is very variable), but very little solid teaching of intermediate dancing.

By 'solid', I mean teaching in such a way that actually brings people into contact with what they need to change so that they are not just doing moves.

Because intermediate classes are, almost without exception, still just moves. You do get hints about technique and style from some teachers, but a) they are few and far between, and b) most of the people in the intermediate classes have absorbed far too little of a 'learning culture' to be tuned into such points. They are still caught up in the 'fun' of not listening to the teacher, chatting to the partners, yanking, anticipating, etc, etc, etc.

I want to see the quality of the teaching improved, so that people can learn the right stuff at late beginner / early intermediate level.

Because only then will there be a genuine development path, where progressively more advanced techniques can be taught to people that have the ability to learn them, but not so much ability that they can invent/discover them for themselves.

That, far more than this laissez-faire attitude to who should do which classes, will start breaking down barriers and getting rid of hurdles.

What's the phrase? Oh yes...

... and I want a pony...

Franck

14th-January-2006, 05:34 PM

Nobody is arguing that the bar should be raised for beginners. Nobody at all.My point is that a card or assessment system would implicitly raise the bar for beginners and early intermediate (and my definition of the above would include someone who has been dancing
less than a year). There is already a divide, between the beginners and intermediate class, and in some cases and advanced class. I just would resist any introduction of a a more formal system.

This is about finding a mechanism for ensuring that people that are simply not ready for Advanced classes don't go to them, and thereby risk:

- hurting themselves and others
- getting bogged down in stuff that's too difficult, thereby getting discouraged unnecessarily
- hindering the progress of those that can cope with such classes, and would benefit themselves and others more by learning more in them.I am also looking for a solution to the above problem, and wanted to express my view that cards and systems would cause too many undesirable side-effects.
My current solution to the above is to offer more technical teaching, both via workshops (and focus classes) and at regular weekly classes, where teachers are more aware of connection and basic Lead & Follow so improve everyone at the same time!

As an example, during my Sunday Focus classes, which can be quite intense and technical, I welcome all level of dancers, from beginners to extremely competent. My view is that you don't have to be an 'advanced' dancer to benefit from good solid technique, and often beginners are as receptive to learning so-called 'advanced concepts' and don't need a blue card to attend. What they need is a willingness to learn, something no Gold card can provide.

Franck

14th-January-2006, 05:37 PM

I want to see the quality of the teaching improved, so that people can learn the right stuff at late beginner / early intermediate level.

Because only then will there be a genuine development path, where progressively more advanced techniques can be taught to people that have the ability to learn them, but not so much ability that they can invent/discover them for themselves.

That, far more than this laissez-faire attitude to who should do which classes, will start breaking down barriers and getting rid of hurdles.
:nice: We posted at the same time and seemingly agree!
That's exactly what I would like to see more of, which would solve many more problems, so :yeah:

LMC

14th-January-2006, 06:05 PM

Because only then will there be a genuine development path, where progressively more advanced techniques can be taught to people that have the ability to learn them, but not so much ability that they can invent/discover them for themselves.
Which is probably at least 80% of us (the remainder being naturally talented dancers and even fewer who may never "get it").

Unfortunately, 80% of the 80% are just not interested :sad:

NB Statistics unsubstantiated, I just liked the sound of the numbers.

My current solution to the above is to offer more technical teaching, both via workshops (and focus classes) and at regular weekly classes, where teachers are more aware of connection and basic Lead & Follow so improve everyone at the same time!
THAT'S IT.

I'm emigrating.

Do I need a work permit for Scotland?

Thinking again about my spurious statistics and the gratitude of some beginners for even the very very basic advice that I can pass on (most of which has been learned from people on here or my own research): perhaps the teachers who do not regularly and comprehensively cover technical teaching are *under*-estimating interest. If you ask someone whether they want to learn technical stuff, they would probably go ":what:? no way, I just dance for fun" - but if you asked them if they wanted to improve their dancing...

*lights blue touch-paper and runs*

El Salsero Gringo

14th-January-2006, 06:38 PM

perhaps the teachers who do not regularly and comprehensively cover technical teaching are *under*-estimating interest. If you ask someone whether they want to learn technical stuff, they would probably go ":what:? no way, I just dance for fun" - but if you asked them if they wanted to improve their dancing...No, I don't think those teachers are underestimating the interest. How many dancers at Finchley want technical lessons in lead-and-follow, footwork, or frame, for example? People *saying* they want to improve their dancing is a far cry from them being arsed to do anything about it - even something relatively minor like paying more attention in a class. Or practicing a move after the class. If there's this big cloud of people wanting so desperately to improve, why arent they flocking to the more technical teachers, and the more advanced classes that go on?

LMC

14th-January-2006, 07:02 PM

I'm thinking of the difference between people who actively go and seek out the information they think they need and the people who would quite like to know but aren't aware of the need or need stuff "fed" to them in the regular course of lessons/events.

Franck's approach is a case in point. In an entire weekend's dancing at the BFG (where freestyles were open to anyone, not just those who had booked on the workshops) I only had ONE bad dance (bouncy hands). The beginners I danced with had limited moves and technique, but there were no grippers or yankers among them.

As a second example: I stopped going to Chesham partly because of an epidemic of grippers - it was just too far to go to be made miserable. Since Gordon has taken over Friday evening teaching, the incidence dropped dramatically between visits a couple of months apart - because he mentions thumbs and the lack of use of same frequently.

In my experience of venues, Finchley is particularly poor in the number of people not paying attention and talking in class. I don't know how Carole puts up with it (the Stevenage teacher has said that he doesn't, on the rare occasions he teaches there!).

El Salsero Gringo

14th-January-2006, 07:10 PM

I'm thinking of the difference between people who actively go and seek out the information they think they need and the people who would quite like to know but aren't aware of the need or need stuff "fed" to them in the regular course of lessons/events.

...{snip lots of interesting stuff, but of which I'm not certain of the relevance} ...As far as I can tell, if someone by nature doesn't have the interest to "seek out" basic technique, then they're not going to be motivated or helped by giving them colour-coded cards - very much the opposite. I think that kind of person is in a majority at Ceroc.

There *is* a development path - both within Ceroc, and parallel to it - and those who have the slightest motivation have no difficulty in finding it. The rest don't want to be helped to be better - so I think they should be just left in peace.

LMC

14th-January-2006, 07:43 PM

People who don't want to get better can surely be left in peace. It's a shame that so many of them are apparently unaware of their own limitations and insist on trying to perform complicated and potentially dangerous moves and even more of a pity that some of them cause pain. Unfortunately, that's off topic, so I'll try to bring it back to the card system.

I never said I was "for" colour coded cards and agree that they would be demotivating. I specifically said that I am against dividing a class into "lines" based on ability. But I am "for" some kind of assessment of ability for advanced classes and for some workshops. If people are happy dancing at their current level, then that's fine - but they should be aware that access to the more interesting and exciting stuff requires a bit more effort on their part.

Perhaps my previous posts are not clear, but I am against any "division" within the current format. "Everything" on a regular freestyle night should be open to anyone who wants to have a go - and reasonably within the ability of anyone who wants to have a go. Which means that some moves have to be restricted to advanced classes/workshops - as some drops and most aerials already are.

The corollary is that an advanced class, IMO, should not be offered as open access to anyone who wishes to attend. Just as there is a beginners review class during intermediate class, perhaps there could be an intermediate review class during the advanced class at the Jive Bar - perhaps there is, I haven't been yet (but intend to out of curiosity). I like Tessa's idea of a monthly workshop for people who want to make the 'leap'.

David Bailey

14th-January-2006, 09:20 PM

No, I don't think those teachers are underestimating the interest. How many dancers at Finchley want technical lessons in lead-and-follow, footwork, or frame, for example?
Seriously? Maybe a dozen I can think of - 20 at the very outside. If you said "would you want technical lessons in lead-and-follow, footwork, or frame?", probably only half that.

But LMC's point about how you market something is relevant I think - if you said to that same group "Would you like to learn how to dance like the experts?" or something, you're more likely to get interest.

Ultimately, developing dance styles isn't for everyone, but the very fact that some venues are (patchily) doing this indicates that there is some demand for it.

If there's this big cloud of people wanting so desperately to improve, why arent they flocking to the more technical teachers, and the more advanced classes that go on?
Because they're not well-publicised or marketed. Which is one of the things that the Ceroc organisation does superbly - look at Storm for example. If even a quarter of the marketing effort for Storm was put into advanced class marketing, I'm sure a demand would be created.

But, yes, that's just my opinion.

David Bailey

15th-January-2006, 01:44 PM

I've done a bit more reading on this from comments on the www.cerocforum.com threads about the system, and even a bit of thinking about it.

It seems clear (for example, in this thread (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=653) that there's a bit of emotion (!) generated from the "blue card / non-blue card line" system in classes. So, let's not do it that way, I don't think we need to import extra resentment and accusations of elitism, we're perfectly capable of generating enough of that ourselves.

But I still think the concept of an exam at "some point" to be able to do "some type of advanced class" is a good idea - note how vaguely I word this :)

Baruch

15th-January-2006, 01:59 PM

But I still think the concept of an exam at "some point" to be able to do "some type of advanced class" is a good idea - note how vaguely I word this :)
The problem is that in order to implement somthing like this, people need to move beyond vague ideas to specifics. That's when the arguments and resentment kick in. I think this would happen with any system, and there will always be cries of "Elitism!" and people who will be unhappy because they don't make the grade.

Personally, I'm still undecided whether or not I'd support a grading system, but that's pretty academic anyway as I'm not involved in the world of MJ teaching. I can see both sides of the argument.

Jive Brummie

15th-January-2006, 03:24 PM

There are obviously pro's and con's for the card system, (I've already stated I'm pro'), but one thing that seems to run through everyone's ideology (sp?) is that more teaching wouldn't go amiss with reference to frame, tension etc etc and this is the part I have a problem with. To Me if you want a class to involve this often detailed technique type 'stuff' then it would be more suited to a more formal environment...as in one that utilises a grading system. We all know that in an average class there are many people who turn up purely for the social aspect and so have absolutely no interest in the theories behind all that posh-talk and to 'inflict' all this information upon them would surely scare them off. I also think that if you were to include it...don't waste to much time on it with beginners as there aren't enough people who can explain it clear enough and so they wouldn't 'get-it' and if you do it with intermediate's...drop the 4th move as time seems to be of the essence.

I guess it's one of the many catch 22 situations. Joe punter wants formal teaching but in an informal way that won't confuse or baffle and will maintain their enjoyment....

So when is the final date for the Amir cloning proceedure then? And can Scotland book one now...ta.

j.

Night Owl

15th-January-2006, 04:12 PM

Being new to Ceroc I wouldn`t be in favour of the card system

The thing i really love apart from the dancing is the fact its fun,there is no pressure to do set pieces as in ball room etc ok there are all the moves to learn but no pressure to have a set routine,as i for one don`t have the memory for this it suits me fine
Yes i can see the point in not allowing people to do things too advanced for them but this should be down to the indivdual teachers etc to point it out to people ,gently that they may not be ready for these moves /classes etc yet.
In my short time in ceroc i have seen plenty of people who probably consider them selves as very experienced ok they have all the moves off to a t but absaloutly no rhythm so in a grading sytem would this be taken into account and be held against them
Every one wants to be a better dancer but exams etc would take the fun out of it

Franck has a much better idea with all his Focus on workshops.BFG. etc

apart from any thing else how are people to improve if they can`t dance with better dancers

any way enough ranting

Baruch

15th-January-2006, 04:26 PM

Every one wants to be a better dancer but exams etc would take the fun out of it
I don't see why. After all, nobody would be forced to go for a blue card (or whatever system is used). Those who want to improve can be assessed and move up a level when they're ready, while those who are happy as they are could stay at the level with which they are comfortable. I don't see how that would affect people's enjoyment.

apart from any thing else how are people to improve if they can`t dance with better dancers
Nobody has said anything about people not being able to dance with better dancers. The card system, as I understand it, is only used for classes, to ensure that only those who are of sufficient ability do the more difficult classes. In freestyle, anyone can dance with anyone else. Yes, there may be one or two who think they are above dancing with beginners, but as others have already pointed out, this happens anyway even without a grading system, so there wouldn't really be any change there.

Actually, I'm starting to convince myself that grading would be a good thing, so it's off the fence for me.

Some way of assessing people before they move up to intermediates would be good too. Some people move up long before they are ready, and this can cause problems for the rest of the intermediates. Maybe the beginner teachers/taxi dancers should have the final say as to whether someone moves up to intermediate or not.

Ronde!

15th-January-2006, 05:02 PM

We already have a card system in Australia. Advanced Intermediate level dancers can choose to be assessed for a "Blue" card, and Advanced level dancers can be assessed for a "Gold" card. I'm a non-blue-card holder, mainly because I live 3.5 hours from the nearest place I can be assessed, and I guess I have a few thoughts.

Firstly, I see the blue card as something that would provide me with a measure of progress. There are plenty of dancers I admire who have their blue card, and if I was to receive one, I would see it as a sign that I was making measurable progress towards their level of technical competence, outside any competitive arena.

Secondly, I can see the benefits of being a blue card holder. For example, there is no need to justify or rate your own ability to anyone else. That has been done by an independant evaluator. You get to dance in a line with other better people, which means you can learn much faster and concentrate on styling and fun aspects of dancing. And there are some events where you must have a blue card to be considered.

However, all of the pros of having a blue card are negatives for anyone that doesn't have one. Robert gets a blue card after 5 weeks; I don't have one yet after three years - am I particularly untalented (I realise I haven't actually summed up the confidence or found a time to actually ask for an evaluation yet)? As a non-blue-card holder, I sometimes feel it's necessary to justify my own standard to myself or others, with reference to, say competitive Ceroc events: if you don't have a blue card, girls sometimes *start* dancing with you feeling a bit dubious, and you then have to "perform" to a standard, to make them think you're worth dancing with instead of just enjoying dancing the song. I don't get to drive up to Willoughby and dance in the line with the better dancers, which means I feel like I'm getting less out of my lesson. And I can't go in any Blue Card routines or workshops, which inhibits my options and my progress.

Those things are all pretty pants for anyone on this side of the fence. I have had some very kind girls pull me into the blue card line on some ocassions, telling me I'm good enough, but I don't like to feel that I'm bypassing the blue card system, as if I was to have an off-night, and not be dancing my best (it's kinda hard to dance your best when you've just been driving for 3.5 hours) I'd hate to hear anyone mention that I shouldn't be in the blue card line.

Really, I should just get off my butt and ask someone for an evaluation, but I myself know there are loads of things I want to improve in my dancing, and to have someone confirm those things, which cause me enormous anxiety already, would be a bit depressing I guess. As I dance primarily for enjoyment, therefore, I tend to prefer to continue working on the things I want to improve until such time as I feel comfortable about having someone analyse my dancing close up. I don't know how long that will be, but I am "borderline" about doing a blue card assessment at the moment.

JM2c :)

El Salsero Gringo

15th-January-2006, 05:32 PM

Another thing we don't have here are taught routines - am I right in thinking they are quite common in Australian Ceroc? Could be another interesting thread.

TheTramp

15th-January-2006, 05:48 PM

Another thing we don't have here are taught routines - am I right in thinking they are quite common in Australian Ceroc? Could be another interesting thread.

We don't?? :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo

15th-January-2006, 06:06 PM

We don't?? :whistle:Not long choreographed routines for particular tracks, tought over several weeks of rehearsals and then performed - do we?

TheTramp

15th-January-2006, 06:25 PM

I know of at least one teacher who's doing just that at the moment... :whistle:

Tessalicious

15th-January-2006, 06:37 PM

I know of at least one teacher who's doing just that at the moment... :whistle:I refer the Right Honourable Donkey to the bottom half of this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187199&postcount=1) - not that Trampy was fishing for a plug or anything...

TheTramp

15th-January-2006, 06:40 PM

I refer the Right Honourable Donkey to the bottom half of this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187199&postcount=1) - not that Trampy was fishing for a plug or anything...

Thanks Miss Licious. And yeah. It is me. Don't need the plug though. Workshops started today, and the course is full anyhow.

Although, have been asked to run it in Glasgow as well :rolleyes:

Cruella

15th-January-2006, 06:56 PM

Another thing we don't have here are taught routines - am I right in thinking they are quite common in Australian Ceroc? Could be another interesting thread.
Emma Pettit regularly teaches a set routine in her workshops. She has been for years!
Nice to know you're not an authority on everything ESG, shows you're human after all.:na:

David Bailey

15th-January-2006, 07:12 PM

Not long choreographed routines for particular tracks, tought over several weeks of rehearsals and then performed - do we?
God, I hope not - even hearing Ecuador played 20-odd times from a distance at MJC last year was hard work... :rolleyes:

El Salsero Gringo

15th-January-2006, 07:54 PM

Emma Pettit regularly teaches a set routine in her workshops. She has been for years!OK, Emma Pettit, Trampy ... and, who else was that?

Seems pretty much pervasive in Australia (if the Ceroc Australia websites(s) are anything to go by) and not what you'd call all-the-rage here - at least not yet. Any going on in London? (which is widely acknowleged by all Forumites to be the centre of the dance universe... :whistle: )

El Salsero Gringo

15th-January-2006, 07:56 PM

Nice to know you're not an authority on everything ESG, shows you're human after all.:na:I'm not an authority on anything, I'm afraid...

Tessalicious

15th-January-2006, 08:12 PM

Any going on in London? (which is widely acknowleged by all Forumites to be the centre of the dance universe... :whistle: )Funnily enough, I only know of one - and that was the full Ecuador routine, taught by our visiting Aussie teacher :rolleyes:

bigdjiver

15th-January-2006, 08:29 PM

I often hear beginners apologising for being a beginner, showing me their badge as though I had not seen it before I asked them, and expressing the view that they will never be as good as the regulars. I ask them if they are enjoying themselves, and the answer is usually "Yes". I tell them that is what matters, and, if they keep coming they will improve. I usually chat whilst doing a basket walk-around, and can honestly tell them that they have done at least one move that is not a beginner move without a lesson in it.
I do not think this forum is representative of the attitudes and views of the average newcomer. I think too many would be scared away by any hint of a test or examination, and too many would be carried away by achieving a grade.
In my experience self-regulation works well enough in normal class nights.

David Bailey

15th-January-2006, 08:45 PM

{ snip good points }

However, all of the pros of having a blue card are negatives for anyone that doesn't have one.
Yes, I can see that it could turn into a status thing.

I dunno. I'd hate for Ceroc UK to push the concept that there are Good and Bad dancers; one of the main strengths is that it's a nice democratic scene, where anyone is encouraged to dance promiscuously with anyone else, both socially and in the classes.

On the other hand, I would like to see advanced (or "technique") classes being taught as standard. And for those classes to be effective, there really has to be a better criterion than "6 weeks dancing" to do them, otherwise they won't be effective.

(BTW, I don't believe most of the "advanced" classes taught in a few London venues are what I'm talking about here - they mainly seem to be about more complex moves than things like dance technique)

So it seems to me that we need some assessment mechanism. Which seems to indicate some sort of examination system, even if only at the "dance for 1 track with the teacher" level. Ideally, this will increase the level of aspiration for dancers. Which means more lovely dance partners for me :clap:

I do not think this forum is representative of the attitudes and views of the average newcomer.
Absolutely - but we're not talking about newcomers. Even in Australia, Blue Cards are optional and are aimed at intermediate / advanced levels of dancer. Which, by the recent "How well do you dance" poll, seems to reflect the largest group of dancers on the forum. So it's legit to talk about things that are relevant to ourselves, surely?

I think too many would be scared away by any hint of a test or examination, and too many would be carried away by achieving a grade.
In my experience self-regulation works well enough in normal class nights.
I guess my problem is that I'm not happy with the structure of normal class nights. Possibly the answer is "Go away then", but I'd prefer to see MJ class nights cater for the likes of me.

I've seen some lovely dancers leave MJ because they're not getting any more out of it. If Ceroc is to be anything more than a half-way house to "proper dancing", I think it needs to innovate.

Funnily enough, I only know of one - and that was the full Ecuador routine, taught by our visiting Aussie teacher :rolleyes:
Argh! Argh! 'Nam flashback... :eek:

bigdjiver

15th-January-2006, 09:30 PM

On the other hand, I would like to see advanced (or "technique") classes being taught as standard. And for those classes to be effective, there really has to be a better criterion than "6 weeks dancing" to do them, otherwise they won't be effective. I am still in favour of advanced technique being drip-fed to classes, where it can be.

... but we're not talking about newcomers. Even in Australia, Blue Cards are optional and are aimed at intermediate / advanced levels of dancer. Which, by the recent "How well do you dance" poll, seems to reflect the largest group of dancers on the forum. So it's legit to talk about things that are relevant to ourselves, surely?Always, but changing the ethos affects everybody. I still believe that the "medals" ethos is one of the things that helped to kill off ballroom. There was still the alleged freedom just to learn for enjoyment, but the best dancers were siphoned off into different classes.

El Salsero Gringo

15th-January-2006, 09:57 PM

(BTW, I don't believe most of the "advanced" classes taught in a few London venues are what I'm talking about here - they mainly seem to be about more complex moves than things like dance technique)How do you know!? I'm not arguing, because I haven't been to one either - just wondering though...

David Bailey

15th-January-2006, 10:43 PM

How do you know!? I'm not arguing, because I haven't been to one either - just wondering though...
You want actual knowledge now? I've managed to survive so far on bluff... Blimey, that's a toughie.

OK, I don't know, but that's what I've been told by reliable sources (for example, the demo or taxi dancer at such classes) happens in a couple of places. I will, of course, happily sell out said sources for rep.

Actually, how many advanced classes are there in London now?

By "advanced", I'd say "simultaneous to but separate from intermediate classes" - I only know of a couple, unless we're including the Jive Bar? Can anyone list them for me?

David Bailey

15th-January-2006, 10:43 PM

I still believe that the "medals" ethos is one of the things that helped to kill off ballroom. There was still the alleged freedom just to learn for enjoyment, but the best dancers were siphoned off into different classes.
I think disco "killed off" ballroom (and most other partner dances, for that matter), I don't think the exam structure did.

Arguably, because ballroom became such a minority interest, the only people doing it were interested solely in the exam side rather than the social side - so yes, from that perspective, exams didn't help create a sociable atmosphere, as those people had more-or-less fixed partners.

Besides, is ballroom dead? Personally I just think it's going through a quiet phase. It's been around for a few centuries, a 30-year hiatus isn't much in comparison.

I guess it's a choice. Do we want to:
- Keep Ceroc classes at the current level, keep the current atmosphere, and just accept that no-one's going to be able to easily progress past a certain point by doing MJ? So we'll lose some of the best dancers to other forms, and it won't ever be taken seriously by other forms
- Change the structure, with the risk that a possible change in ethos could lose some of the uniquely friendly atmosphere?

El Salsero Gringo

15th-January-2006, 10:54 PM

Besides, is ballroom dead? Personally I just think it's going through a quiet phase. It's been around for a few centuries, a 30-year hiatus isn't much in comparison.We-el, unless in Ballroom you count Pavannes, Galliards and the like (and I was listening to just one such only this afternoon) I think most 'official' Ballroom dances are 20th Century inventions. And not that early 20th C. either...

David Bailey

15th-January-2006, 11:05 PM

We-el, unless in Ballroom you count Pavannes, Galliards and the like (and I was listening to just one such only this afternoon) I think most 'official' Ballroom dances are 20th Century inventions. And not that early 20th C. either...
"Coupled dancing" emerged in the 15th Century I believe, that'll be those galliard things. And the Waltz has been around since about 1700.

Yes, most individual dances have a limited lifespan - but "ballroom dancing" itself or possibly redefining it as "partner dancing to music", has been around for oohh, ages, hasn't it?

Moving goalposts? Moi?

Anyway, this is getting off-topic; where are all these advanced classes in London?

LMC

15th-January-2006, 11:11 PM

Jive Bar (Russell Sq) is now running an advanced class every Wednesday - intermediate class followed by advanced followed by freestyle. I shall go along at some point over the next couple of weeks (need to check taxi rota first).

Gary

16th-January-2006, 12:02 AM

Another thing we don't have here are taught routines - am I right in thinking they are quite common in Australian Ceroc?
You are correct.

Gary

16th-January-2006, 12:06 AM

...
In my experience self-regulation works well enough in normal class nights.
From what I've seen/heard, it's the ladies who are affected much more by guys attempting classes too tricky for them, and so I'd be much more swayed by ladies saying that self-regulation is just fine. (More experienced guy with less experienced girl generally means that you do different stuff, less experienced guy with more experienced girl is more likely to result in injury).

Also, it's not for "normal class nights" that we use the blue card system, it's for intermediate/advanced class nights.

Gadget

16th-January-2006, 01:13 AM

Most of the folk arguing the "Pros" of cards seem to be under the impression that the majority of dancers want to learn how to dance or how to get better at dancing.
I think that this is a false assumption: the learning part is just a side-effect and necessary thing to go through to achieve the main aim which is simply to dance {and have fun doing it}.

I don't think that you should screen people for admittance to a workshop, but the contents and what is expected of attendees should be clearly outlined. It is then up to the attendees to self-police: I don't think that the teacher should dumb-down the workshop because a few folk have ideas above their ability.

I find it quite "ironic" (perhaps the wrong word) that most of the technical and technique based classes at the BFG were marked as 'beginners' and most of the move, memory and twisty classes were marked as 'advanced'. Personally, I'm pleased with (and agree with) this: All the stuff Franck was teaching about connection and movement is not the sole property of the "advanced" dancer.

With regard to "advanced" techniques and stuff being put into normal classes, I think that it is. Every intermediate class I can remember {ok, I admit: a poor qualifier :rolleyes:} has had at least one point where the teacher has said "more adventurous among you may want to try this" or "If you can, try a double spin" or "Men, this is your opportunity to spin if you can"... etc. Optional extras in style. There is normally some advice on technique as well along the lines of "if you try to keep contact while..." or "your hand should brush past..." or "this bit should be sharper...." etceteras.

I'm a non-blue-card holder, mainly because I live 3.5 hours from the nearest place I can be assessed, and I guess I have a few thoughts.
Good point - If you dance for pleasure and solely to dance, then what a waste of time and resources it would be to actively seek out a person/event that would assess you.

When you are hauled out of the masses into the 'blue line', what do you think that the reaction of those about you at that time would be? I'm getting images of Harry Potter's entrance to Hogwarts where Draco says "you don't want to be messing with that sort." :sick:

Baruch

16th-January-2006, 01:26 AM

I'd welcome a grading system, however simple or basic, because although I'm happy to dance with anybody in freestyle (where I can avoid drops/tricky moves if necessary), there are times in class when I've been hurt/unable to do a move/made nervous because I've had to dance with people who should really have stayed in the beginners' class a while longer. And this is just at intermediate level, not even int/advanced.

That's not me being a "hotshot" - it's self-preservation. I've paid my money like everyone else, so I don't expect to have to leave the floor during the lesson because I've got hurt or don't feel safe dancing with certain partners. A simple grading system would prevent that sort of thing.

Like I said, I enjoy dancing with people of all ability levels in freestyle, but in a class, where I have no control over the moves we are asked to do, it's a different matter.

timbp

16th-January-2006, 02:10 AM

OK, Why does it make it easier to learn the move if the people you are dancing with are judged "capable of doing the routine"?

Take one example: spinning.

If a girl cannot do a balanced spin, the guy cannot really try a simultaneous spin. He needs to watch the girl and catch her if necessary (and make absolutely sure there is nothing in his lead causing the imbalance). But if the girl can spin well, the guy can try spinning at the same time. And the first few times he does, his lead for the spin will probably not be as good -- so ideally the girl should be able compensate for a poor lead while the guy learns how to lead her and spin himself.

Girls in the blue card line don't have to worry that the guy is going to push them off balance when he spins. Guys can do their spins knowing they don't have to watch the girl in case she unbalances.

Jeremy

16th-January-2006, 02:30 AM

I danced in Sydney for over a year without hearing much about the card system here. Only some of the venues run the intermediate/advanced classes so its only those venues that have the different lines. As such the card system is really an optional system you can get into if you want. I think the biggest benefit is to get individual feedback on your dancing each time an assessment is made.

When it comes to freestyle there really has been no issue of who to dance with. A blue/gold card is something that just goes in a wallet or somewhere at home to fish out when a routine or IA/advanced class comes up. Most of us enjoy dancing with beginners & intermediates. In fact, just a general statement - most of us just enjoy dancing :D The card(s) just tell those who are preparing classes and workshops that we have a certain expected ability (eg can lead a lady in a double spin without getting her off balance) so those skills only need to be briefly touched on in those classes and workshops as a reminder that than focused on as a new skill.

I think it needs to be considered, how important would you going to make this system. Will you be telling everyone about it, forcing people to get assessed, providing information pamplets that get given to everyone at the door, etc or will it be a more background system that if people ask they will be told about (kinda like it is in Sydney at the moment).

Whether a separate class line is implemented or not in a venue is a separate issue to whether there is an assessment system in place. The assessment system can still be used for workshop/advanced class requirements. And routine requirements too for those lucky enough to have local routines being taught.

The structure of the night is still:
Beginner Class (one rotation)
Freestyle
Second Class*
Freestyle

where the second class consists of:
Beginner Progression (one rotation), Intromediate (one rotation), Intermediate (one rotation), Intermediate-Advanced (blue card and non-blue card rotations), or Advanced (blue-card and gold card rotations)

Often a venue will hold more than one second class in another room. Usually this is paired:

Beginner Progression & Intromediate
Beginner Progression & Intermediate
Beginner Progression & Intermediate-Advanced
Beginner Progression & Special Getting your Blue Card & Advanced

In most venues the intermediate second class dominates with the occassional intromediate (1/month) or intermediate-advanced (1/month) depending on the average level of dancers at that venue.

Willoughby (home of Ceroc in Sydney) does things a little differently, having 1 intermediate class per month with the rest Intermediate-Advanced and the occassional Advanced class (& getting your blue card) (1/quarter?)

I'm certainly for the system. I think it works fairly well here in Sydney. When I eventually make it over to the UK (my unit is still on the market... hurry up and sell!!) I'd certainly be willing to participate in a similar system. I'd like to teach some choreographed routines when I get there so will probably do some informal assessment with the people who want to learn them depending how difficult the routines are (unless a system is already in place).

David Bailey

16th-January-2006, 08:50 AM

Most of the folk arguing the "Pros" of cards seem to be under the impression that the majority of dancers want to learn how to dance or how to get better at dancing.
Not really, in my case - that's just what I want. If I were involved in the business, It'd be different, I'd have to actually prove or show a demand.

Having said that, I think there is a demand for "improve your dancing" classes. But I can't prove it.

I find it quite "ironic" (perhaps the wrong word) that most of the technical and technique based classes at the BFG were marked as 'beginners' and most of the move, memory and twisty classes were marked as 'advanced'. Personally, I'm pleased with (and agree with) this: All the stuff Franck was teaching about connection and movement is not the sole property of the "advanced" dancer.
:yeah:

I agree - I'm not sure that "advanced" is ever helpful as a label.

Hmmm.... I think maybe an "exams?" poll could be useful; in fact, this thread should probably have been a poll to start with :blush:

The card(s) just tell those who are preparing classes and workshops that we have a certain expected ability (eg can lead a lady in a double spin without getting her off balance)
Off-topic I know, but what is it with Australians and double-spinning? Some of the classiest dancers I know (CeeCee, ZW, Miss Conduct, etc.) have never done these...

I'd like to teach some choreographed routines when I get there
:eek: Burn him!! :devil:

ChrisA

16th-January-2006, 11:27 AM

I'm not sure that "advanced" is ever helpful as a label.

I think I understand why you'd say that, in the context of teaching lead/follow to beginners.

But this isn't because of anything intrinsically wrong with the concept. I mean, 'beginner', 'intermediate', 'advanced' - what could be simpler and more meaningful than that, just as in lots of other activities?

It's only because the concept has become completely bastardised in the teaching structures, and polluted with the side issue of hotshotism, that the actual meaning has become largely lost.

Just as there are simple moves that beginners can learn, and more difficult moves that would rightly be classed as more advanced, there are beginner lead/follow concepts, which have to be taught and learned before more advanced ones can be taught and learned. Here's an example:

A beginner lead/follow concept might be the simple 'compression before stepping back, tension before stepping forward' that we all know and love. A more advanced lead/follow concept is that of being able to maintain the resistance through, for example, an assisted spin, so that the lead can slow the spin down, speed it up, or even stop it half way, and reverse it. This is of course much more difficult - the only person I've ever seen teach it is Amir.

The problem is that there isn't enough teaching of the beginner versions of things things such as lead/follow that makes it possible to develop towards the more advanced ones.

The solution, rather than to cripple the language by making 'advanced' a politically incorrect term, is to get the teaching structures right, so that, for instance, beginner tension and compression isn't thought of as an advanced topic any more.

marty_baby

16th-January-2006, 11:49 AM

The problem is that there isn't enough teaching of the beginner versions of things things such as lead/follow that makes it possible to develop towards the more advanced ones.

The solution, rather than to cripple the language by making 'advanced' a politically incorrect term, is to get the teaching structures right, so that, for instance, beginner tension and compression isn't thought of as an advanced topic any more.

Hi Chris,

That is absolutely bang on in my opinion!

Beginner fundamentals of skills such as lead/follow, compression, Frame - aren't that hard to learn imho - most people possess the physical abilities to do this. However, how are they suppose to learn/appreciate this whole new scope of dancing, if no one teaches them the fundamentals! (Please note - I say "beginner" levels of learning here.)

If the beginner fundamentals as describe above are taught to the poplace - I think everyone will agree that the standard of dance overall will really improve! Also, the beginner rentention rate is improve dramatically as well. Beginners will enjoy Leroc/Ceroc at a whole new level, and see that there truely is a progression path dance wise, and not just move after move after move.

David Bailey

16th-January-2006, 12:20 PM

Re: the term "advanced":

I think I understand why you'd say that, in the context of teaching lead/follow to beginners.

But this isn't because of anything intrinsically wrong with the concept. I mean, 'beginner', 'intermediate', 'advanced' - what could be simpler and more meaningful than that, just as in lots of other activities?

Well, my problem with the term is that...

It's only because the concept has become completely bastardised in the teaching structures, and polluted with the side issue of hotshotism, that the actual meaning has become largely lost.
Ah, you've said it for me! :rofl:

I think the problem is that Ceroc (UK) don't clearly define dancer levels beyond the dumbass "6 / 12 week" thing, so we're left struggling to define it almost on an individual basis.

The solution, rather than to cripple the language by making 'advanced' a politically incorrect term, is to get the teaching structures right, so that, for instance, beginner tension and compression isn't thought of as an advanced topic any more.
Yeah, but there are (at least) two issues here:
- Would an (optional) exam / grading system be helpful?
- What should be taught in Ceroc advanced classes?

OK, they're related, but they're separate. And I know for a fact that the latter topic has had oodles of discussion already, so let's leave that to the many other threads about that area...

Lynn

16th-January-2006, 12:44 PM

Yeah, but there are (at least) two issues here:
- Would an (optional) exam / grading system be helpful?
- What should be taught in Ceroc advanced classes?

OK, they're related, but they're separate. And I know for a fact that the latter topic has had oodles of discussion already, so let's leave that to the many other threads about that area... Yep, I think we are getting sidetracked a bit (not like this forum at all :whistle: )

DJ - time for a poll on the former question perhaps?

Though this thread has made me think about how we do polls - we tend to have the poll, people vote and then discuss the subject. Having a thread to discuss a subject for a few days, then having a poll, is perhaps a better way of doing things. I know my own perspective has shifted a bit on reading through this thread and hearing different perspectives (esp from those who have experienced the card system.)

David Bailey

16th-January-2006, 12:54 PM

Yep, I think we are getting sidetracked a bit (not like this forum at all :whistle: )

DJ - time for a poll on the former question perhaps?
Done (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7477).

Though this thread has made me think about how we do polls - we tend to have the poll, people vote and then discuss the subject. Having a thread to discuss a subject for a few days, then having a poll, is perhaps a better way of doing things. I know my own perspective has shifted a bit on reading through this thread and hearing different perspectives (esp from those who have experienced the card system.)
Maybe you should do a poll about how we do polls. :devil:

Franck

16th-January-2006, 01:28 PM

one thing that seems to run through everyone's ideology (sp?) is that more teaching wouldn't go amiss with reference to frame, tension etc etc and this is the part I have a problem with. To Me if you want a class to involve this often detailed technique type 'stuff' then it would be more suited to a more formal environment...as in one that utilises a grading system.I don't see that at all. Adding foundation technique to regular classes is very easily done, and at all levels, it has been part of my classes in Glasgow, but also in Inverness, which has only been opened for 3 months, and the results (both in attendance and in quality of dancers) are very clear! There is no need to segregate dancers, or indeed to give them a Gold Badge. Teaching them the right stuff at all levels, dancing with them and leading by example works much better.

We all know that in an average class there are many people who turn up purely for the social aspect and so have absolutely no interest in the theories behind all that posh-talk and to 'inflict' all this information upon them would surely scare them off. I see many classes where people are happy to dance with their friends, have reached a comfortable (for them) level of dancing and probably don't want to invest any more effort in learning more. For those dancers, the drip-fed approach works best, no extra effort involved on their part, and sometimes, a simple thing clicks and they progress to the 'avid learner' stage.
I see no evidence that numbers drop when you introduce good technique in classes (quite the reverse) but I have seen drops in attendance (and beginners retention) when levels have been separated and formalised.
It is important to also remember that without all the social dancers, most of our top venues would be financially bankrupt, so we would lose half of our current nights.

So when is the final date for the Amir cloning proceedure then? And can Scotland book one now...ta.That's an easy one to answer, Amir was teaching at the Beach Ballroom last November (shame you missed it) and will be back in June for another week-end of top workshops.
In the past year, we also have seen the likes of Stefano and Alexandra (from Tango in action), Marc Forster, David & Lily Barker, Simon Borland, Emma Sabin and more.... who have all brought their brilliant expertise to Scotland, and all of us who attended their workshops (dancers & teachers) have learnt and improved as a result!

marty_baby

16th-January-2006, 02:05 PM

Very eloquently put Franck!
Nice to see actual proof that the ideas discussed above - do work in classes.

Martin :)

Jive Brummie

16th-January-2006, 02:06 PM

That's an easy one to answer, Amir was teaching at the Beach Ballroom last November (shame you missed it) and will be back in June for another week-end of top workshops.
In the past year, we also have seen the likes of Stefano and Alexandra (from Tango in action), Marc Forster, David & Lily Barker, Simon Borland, Emma Sabin and more.... who have all brought their brilliant expertise to Scotland, and all of us who attended their workshops (dancers & teachers) have learnt and improved as a result!

All excellent top quality teachers in that line up Franck and it's a shame Melanie and I didn't get a chance to do all the classes they put on, wer're sooooo busy nowadays:sick: ...However, (and there's always a 'however':rolleyes: ), I do notice that they're all imports!

I think Chris A has already mentioned that if this structure was to come into place, Ceroc UK would need to revamp their teaching approach and ensure that all of their teachers are up to scratch. Is this possible and could it be maintained? And would they even want to? When I did my CTA, there was not one mention of any of this stuff and I like to think I'm a relatively capable dancer and have a relatively decent understanding of it all, but then, (and I don't mean to sound insulting:flower: ) when you see some of the teachers that get through...you have to question if they know their left hand from their right hand. Surely tension, compression, frame, connection and all of those increasingly popular buzz words wouldn't stand a chance of coming across in a clear coherent way:confused:

I really do think that if you want more of the technical stuff it is best suited to a more formal class. Formality it seems though, normally comes at a price and while the modern jive world continues along it's informal path won't it always look like a commercial enterprise rather than a dance class? And if it isn't...then why the price rise? The product is the same as it's been in the past 3 years. When i started, (3 years ago) it cost a fiver, now it's 7 quid. Admittedly I'm lucky enough to live in Scotland and there are some great teachers up here and so overall I guess we get value for money, but can that be said UK-wide? *slightly off topic but there's a wee-link in there somewhere*

j

ChrisA

16th-January-2006, 02:11 PM

if this structure was to come into place, Ceroc UK would need to revamp their teaching approach and ensure that all of their teachers are up to scratch. Is this possible and could it be maintained? And would they even want to? When I did my CTA, there was not one mention of any of this stuff and ...

... when you see some of the teachers that get through...you have to question if they know their left hand from their right hand. Surely tension, compression, frame, connection and all of those increasingly popular buzz words wouldn't stand a chance of coming across in a clear coherent way:confused:

Hmm, the words "cat", "bag", "let" and "out" come strangely to mind reading this... :innocent:

Franck

16th-January-2006, 03:44 PM

All excellent top quality teachers in that line up Franck and it's a shame Melanie and I didn't get a chance to do all the classes they put on, wer're sooooo busy nowadays:sick: ...However, (and there's always a 'however':rolleyes: ), I do notice that they're all imports!Of course they're all imports, that's why I invited them over, Scotland exports its own expertise already, and as you mentioned we have some excellent teachers up here who are shaping the future of MJ.
A few years back I took the view that if any of us (teachers and regular dancers) were to improve, we would need to learn from teachers that were better than us. This approach has benefited not just myself, but all the teachers who realised how much there was to learn, and gradually (and yes, it is a slow trickle down process) the standard of dancing (and teaching) has improved significantly.
The only regret I have is that many teachers (and this is a UK-wide issue) either don't want to change the way they teach / dance, or think they know it all already. this makes the 'revamp' you mention much harder to bring about on a national scale!

I think Chris A has already mentioned that if this structure was to come into place, Ceroc UK would need to revamp their teaching approach and ensure that all of their teachers are up to scratch. Is this possible and could it be maintained? And would they even want to? Ceroc UK is continually changing their approach to teaching, teacher training and many of those technical concepts are now part of the curriculum and I expect it will take a few years still before the impact is felt nationally. Pretty much all the Ceroc teachers on this Forum are already ahead of the evolution curve, and at every teacher update, they share their experiences with all of us to improve standards.

I really do think that if you want more of the technical stuff it is best suited to a more formal class. Formality it seems though, normally comes at a price and while the modern jive world continues along it's informal path won't it always look like a commercial enterprise rather than a dance class? And if it isn't...then why the price rise? The product is the same as it's been in the past 3 years. When i started, (3 years ago) it cost a fiver, now it's 7 quid. I believe that Ceroc is both a provider of dance classes / workshops & events and a Commercial enterprise. If a dance class doesn't make any money (or indeed runs at a loss) then eventually, they close and everyone suffers from fewer opportunities to dance learn.
I have personally run many nights at a loss for several years (Aberdeen in the early days, Perth, etc...) and would not be able to subsidize them without a few established profitable nights. 3 years ago, the price was 6 pounds, and due to inflation, venue costs rising, Teachers' pay rise (and they really deserve it), petrol and advertising costs, etc... the increase was necessary. The product is not quite the same as it was 3 years, ago, but then again, I now pay almost 50% more for the same diesel as I did 2 years ago, so go figure!

In another thread, AndyMcGregor mentions that Modern Jive is splitting into 2 styles, I would disagree and postulate that Modern Jive is simply evolving, and as teachers become better and more experienced, the versatility of the dance is showing more and more.

TheTramp

16th-January-2006, 04:47 PM

(and I don't mean to sound insulting:flower: ) ~snip~

I think that you failed there.... :whistle:

Jive Brummie

16th-January-2006, 08:53 PM

I think that you failed there.... :whistle:

People think it, I say it. Jive Brummie, Conversational Hand Grenade....maybe that should be under my user name...:whistle:

SimonSays

24th-January-2006, 01:25 AM

Hi all,

I taught and assessed for the popular Aussie Blue & Gold Card Systems, so thought I could add my own observations.

There are loads of Ceroc / Modern Jive venues across Australia for people to learn and progress from beginners to intermediate, and then there are a few venues that really focus on the next levels. If you dont like it, you simply go to one of the other multitude of venues. By the time you finish complaining about the advanced class, you could have instead gone down the road to a different class..

People like it.

A lot of good dancers come BACK after years in the wilderness when these nights became popular.

But I have been away from Australia for a year now - so I cant give a recent update.

I reckon for life in general, in anything we do, its worth trying harder, trying new and interesting things - dont sit back and moan about the systems - these are always evolving - just give em a try, and see if they work for you.

In my eyes (my opinion only) Aussie Blue and Gold card classes are simply a long term experiment (long term suggests they are tending to work) aimed at finding something better for the jiveaholics.

Challenge Question: Whats the UK jive scene doing to push people to the next level? Is it working? Is it coordinated or sporadic? Is it centralised or regional? What are you guys trying in your areas?

e.g. London as you know has just tried kicking off the weekly Wednesday Advanced class (there is no beginners class on these nights at all)- so full points to them for having a go - lets see how it goes.

I dont know the answer to the UK scene, but I know that the market demands better and better things.... If you have a good system, lets try it!

And on another note - I had a great time up in Glasgow for the BFG late last year, it was a brilliant event - thanks for having me as part of it.
Cheers,

Simon Borland (seem to be known as Aussie Simon, fair enuf)
p.s. if you are ever in London - make it a Tuesday night, and come and see ISH for yourselves - it is rocking!

adss

24th-January-2006, 05:18 AM

From that I assume that the card system is reasonably well-accepted in Australia?

Keeping in mind that only one dance company in Australia is using this card system .

Andy McGregor

24th-January-2006, 08:56 AM

I think Chris A has already mentioned that if this structure was to come into place, Ceroc UK would need to revamp their teaching approach and ensure that all of their teachers are up to scratch. Is this possible and could it be maintained? And would they even want to? When I did my CTA, there was not one mention of any of this stuff and I like to think I'm a relatively capable dancer and have a relatively decent understanding of it all, but then, (and I don't mean to sound insulting:flower: ) when you see some of the teachers that get through...you have to question if they know their left hand from their right hand. Surely tension, compression, frame, connection and all of those increasingly popular buzz words wouldn't stand a chance of coming across in a clear coherent way:confused: Did anyone else reading this think that it's probably the teachers who should have a "Dance/Teaching Levels Card System"?

Jive Brummie

25th-January-2006, 12:10 AM

Did anyone else reading this think that it's probably the teachers who should have a "Dance/Teaching Levels Card System"?

This is a good point Andy and one that would certainly need addressing if the dance card system ever came into being. To ensure the best progression was achieved at punter-level, the teacher would have to also be at a predesignated level of ability...wouldn't they?

Doesn't Aussie Ceroc have a system in place that have some teachers purely for beginners, some for intermediates and so on. I like that idea.

J.

p.s. am still in favour of the card system...it stops people wasting their money.

Will

25th-January-2006, 12:15 AM

This is a good point Andy and one that would certainly need addressing if the dance card system ever came into being. To ensure the best progression was achieved at punter-level, the teacher would have to also be at a predesignated level of ability...wouldn't they?

Doesn't Aussie Ceroc have a system in place that have some teachers purely for beginners, some for intermediates and so on. I like that idea.

J.

p.s. am still in favour of the card system...it stops people wasting their money.
Although they don't carry cards, UK Ceroc teachers can only teach beginners classes until they've passed their intermediate instructors course.

Will

Gary

25th-January-2006, 03:15 AM

...
Doesn't Aussie Ceroc have a system in place that have some teachers purely for beginners, some for intermediates and so on. I like that idea.

It's not official, but only some of the teachers (not including me :tears: (yet :wink: ) ) are asked to teach the Intermediate/Advanced classes.

(This is for Ceroc and Modern Jive, there are many other (fabulous) companies in Australia)

Jive Brummie

26th-January-2006, 09:37 PM

Although they don't carry cards, UK Ceroc teachers can only teach beginners classes until they've passed their intermediate instructors course.

Will

Aha! I'm glad you've mentioned this because I know this doesn't always happen. :what:

j.

David Bailey

7th-February-2006, 10:42 PM

Alice

8th-February-2006, 12:07 AM

An addendum to this thread, to give a bit more information: apart from the blue card for intermediate / advanced dancers, there's a gold card for Really Good Dancers, or something.

Details on this thread (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=171), but I saw that one of the gold card requirements is (was?) to demonstrate one of those verrrry looonng and verrry complex routines.

Quite a surprise to me - from my point-of-view, that's more a test of memory and practise than of dancing ability. If nothing else (and assuming that this criterion is still active), it does seem to indicate one of the key Aussie style / UK style differentiators being "complexity of routine" as an indicator of dancing ability.

What do others think?

(Note: I'm making no judgements, just saying what I think from my point-of-view, so let's try to avoid a slanging match)
I'm not too sure what the requirements for a gold card is... but I do know that they were assessing for them the night I got my blue card. Which would infer that it was based on freestyle (assessment for both cards involves dancing with certain mainstream teachers for a song during freestyle). I'll try to find out from CMJ what the gold requirements are though- might be interesting:)

However, for the blue card assessment, part of it is (usually) that you can successfully complete an I/A routine- so it's usually assessed in the freestyle immediately after an I/A class. At least that's when I did mine. So- you do the class in the intermediate line and then you have to be able to lead/follow it competently with the assessor afterwards.

I like the card system as it gives me something to work towards, as well as an idea of my progression. I like having the feedback. Those who don't like exams or who don't want to go for a card for whatever reason don't have to get one- I/A classes are not taught at every venue anyway so it would be quite easy to happily dance away without one. The only time you might "need" a card is to do an I/A group routine for a ball or other performance- and that's really a safety issue more than anything else.

Yliander

8th-February-2006, 12:53 AM

David Bailey

8th-February-2006, 10:26 AM

it is just another development step
Sure - although as you said, it's maddeningly unclear what that step actually is...

Of course, it's even less clear in the UK :rolleyes:

actually the criteria in the first post are for the blue card - and the routine refered to is an I/A class routine - generally class routines consist of 3- 6 moves depending on how exactly you defiene a move that is :wink:
I was referring more to Nicky and Adam's comments on the Gold Card assessment system - for example, in this post (http://www.cerocforum.com/showpost.php?p=10458&postcount=12), Adam says:

Yes freestyle tests are the way all tests are done but often when given the feedback for improvement students find it hard to implement changes dancing constantly with varing ability of dancers. Routine dancing is merely I believe a better way to practice the techniques needed to improve your dancing ability for the test.

I pesonally find it easier to improve my technique in a routine or a competetive environment because I have a regular partner that I can practice these skills with and ask questions. Once I became more familiar with some of these skills I have more confidence for my general dancing and can further perfect them on the dance floor.

Now admittedly, I may have misunderstood, but from the replies to that thread, it looked to me like Gold-Card applicants are / were assessed based on how well they did a long and complex routine?

ads

8th-February-2006, 11:10 PM

Sure - although as you said, it's maddeningly unclear what that step actually is...

Of course, it's even less clear in the UK :rolleyes:

I was referring more to Nicky and Adam's comments on the Gold Card assessment system - for example, in this post (http://www.cerocforum.com/showpost.php?p=10458&postcount=12), Adam says:

Now admittedly, I may have misunderstood, but from the replies to that thread, it looked to me like Gold-Card applicants are / were assessed based on how well they did a long and complex routine?
I saw in one of your prevoius posts that you said you were not trying to be judgemental because you said so and I ask you and others do you/they honestly believe this when you use words that suggest a condesending and derisive tone.
If someone asked me what I thought of a routine and I replied I thought it was short and simple do you think that that person would believe that I was being non- judgemental!
I do not know how you get from Adam's quote that these routines are the basis for assesment when he clearly saids that it is freestyle that one gets assessed on. Routines are just a good way to practice dance techniques because of the environment that may help you to become a better dancer if that is what you want.

Yliander

8th-February-2006, 11:27 PM

Now admittedly, I may have misunderstood, but from the replies to that thread, it looked to me like Gold-Card applicants are / were assessed based on how well they did a long and complex routine?the point Adam was making in his post is quite clear that there are certain routines you can do as a way of preparing for getting your gold card - ie that routine will teach you techniques & skills and if you can do the routine you are likely to have mastered the skills and techniques required for a gold card.

Routine dancing is merely I believe a better way to practice the techniques needed to improve your dancing ability for the test.

Gold card applicants aren't assessed on how well they did the routine - that is still done via a freestyle dance.

me thinks you may need to read with a little more care & comprehension as there really is no confusion in Adams post

Andreas

8th-February-2006, 11:32 PM

Routines are just a good way to practice dance techniques because of the environment that may help you to become a better dancer if that is what you want.
I am not going to get myself involved in the discussion about judgement here. But I'd argue that last point. Routines may make one learn moves better because one keeps practicing them until they come out of ones ears but they don't make a better dancer. In fact, I'd be more inclined to say they have just as much negative repercussions as positive because they provide a false sense of security. In this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7554) thread I raised a couple of points regarding learning with a partner and the same applies to learning routines. It helps to learn doing moves better and safer, which makes you a better dancer. On the other hand, it gets you used to a partner or small number of partners and 'helps you lose the ability to freestyle' with just about anybody at a level anywhere near to what you do with a your partner. People are lazy and this exploits it. That in turn makes you a worse dancer altough you look better on stage. So it is just a s good as it is bad, if you ask me.

When I use 'YOU' in the above blurb then this does not address YOU personally but another person in general. So no offense intended, Adrian. :cheers:

David Bailey

8th-February-2006, 11:35 PM

If someone asked me what I thought of a routine and I replied I thought it was short and simple do you think that that person would believe that I was being non- judgemental!
Not really, no - to me, short and simple is just a description, it's certainly not (to me) derogatory - some of the best steps and moves I've learnt have been both short and simple. Doesn't in any way mean (again, to me) "good" or "bad"...

The Jango DVD routines (treated as "just moves") are both short and simple, as are Argentine Tango steps. And they're :drool:

Is this a cultural thing? Do Aussies generally think "long and complex" is better than "short and simple"? Or is that a(nother) gross sterotypical assumption?

And yes, I'm still beavering away at the "What is Aussie Style" question. Not, in any way, because I want to slag it off - I've slapped down people who tried to turn the "What is Aussie Style" thread into a "Who's better?" p&ssing cotest in the past - but because I really really want to know.

I do not know how you get from Adam's quote that these routines are the basis for assesment when he clearly saids that it is freestyle that one gets assessed on.

Well, from that thread, there's a quote from Nicky:

We do also utilise some of our I/A (Julie & Adam's Northern Stars "Elvis" routine and Camille's "Kylie" Routine) and Intro to Advanced (mine & Robert's "Michael Jackson") routines as appraisal formats for issuing Gold Cards to those we consider meet the required standard.

and (also from that thread), there's a reply from Ken:

If you assess dancers based on routines, it does not assess them on spontanous choreograhpy, but rather the dancers know what is coming next - practicing the same moves and good memory work. This is very different from free style.
This seems to indicate that at the least, I'm not alone in thinking that routines are a big part of the assessment (I made the assumption that these were long and complex routines, this may have been way off-base, please let me know if they're not).

I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong - but presumably that makes it clear why I got that impression in the first place?

I am not going to get myself involved in the discussion about judgement here
You are just no fun at all...

Andreas

8th-February-2006, 11:39 PM

if you can do the routine you are likely to have mastered the skills and techniques required for a gold card.
When I talk about 'mastered' I mean 'can do under all circumstances'. A routine does under NO circumstances provide any indication that one has 'mastered' a technique. Freestyle is where you test that and the only way to test that in freestyle is by partnering up with a significantly less advanced dancer. :flower:

Andreas

8th-February-2006, 11:40 PM

You are just no fun at all...
I'll let you argue that with my girlfriend :yum:

David Bailey

8th-February-2006, 11:43 PM

the point Adam was making in his post is quite clear that there are certain routines you can do as a way of preparing for getting your gold card - ie that routine will teach you techniques & skills and if you can do the routine you are likely to have mastered the skills and techniques required for a gold card.
Yep, that was what I understood to be his point.

But I'm not sure how that's supposed to work - I'm with the tall blond German on this one, it's difficult to see how doing a routine in itself teaches you anything about advanced dancing (as ably defined by both DavidB and Andybroom recently). It just teaches you how to move your body in a pre-defined sequence, surely?

me thinks you may need to read with a little more care & comprehension as there really is no confusion in Adams post
Possibly. But I clearly wasn't the only one to get confused about it; and I'm not totally convinced that I was wrong in the first place either.

Yliander

8th-February-2006, 11:54 PM

When I talk about 'mastered' I mean 'can do under all circumstances'. A routine does under NO circumstances provide any indication that one has 'mastered' a technique. Freestyle is where you test that and the only way to test that in freestyle is by partnering up with a significantly less advanced dancer. :flower: a routine give you the repition to master a move or techniquie - and I did say likely to have mastered - I absolutely agree that routines are not the same as freestyle but doing one does give you a chance - especially if you don't have a regular dance partner - to repeat and work with someone on those moves, skills and technquie in it that one wouldn't other wise get. The other thing that routines give is the time to think about the finer details of the moves and exactly how they are being done.

some of the best freestyle dancers I know are those that have done many routines - with many different partners

taking that skill or move into freestyle is up to the individual - some will, some won't

actually I would say that the only wayt to test that is by partnering up with an appropriate level dancer - that may be a less advanced dancer it may be and equially advanced dancer or it may be a more advanced dancer. The partner has to be of a level to cope with the move/technique you are using - using an advanced foot work lead on a beginner is not going to work well no matter what the skill of the more advanced dancer.

Yliander

8th-February-2006, 11:55 PM

But I'm not sure how that's supposed to work - I'm with the tall blond German on this one, it's difficult to see how doing a routine in itself teaches you anything about advanced dancing (as ably defined by both DavidB and Andybroom recently). It just teaches you how to move your body in a pre-defined sequence, surely? Have you ever done a routine?

Alice

8th-February-2006, 11:56 PM

I was referring more to Nicky and Adam's comments on the Gold Card assessment system - for example, in this post (http://www.cerocforum.com/showpost.php?p=10458&postcount=12), Adam says:

Now admittedly, I may have misunderstood, but from the replies to that thread, it looked to me like Gold-Card applicants are / were assessed based on how well they did a long and complex routine?
Hi David,
I think you may indeed have misunderstood. Having looked at this thread (thanks for including it, makes things much easier) Adam's post is talking about the transition to Intermediate/Advanced- otherwise known as getting a blue card (Int/Adv being the next level up from Int and below Adv). There is no mention of gold card assessments- we're working on it, but still no word on gold card requirements:)

I think the problem (in comprehension) comes down to vocab used which may and probably does differ from Oz and the UK. Having heard on this forum that you guys don't often do what we refer to as "routines" (ie several dancers doing a synchronised routine like a showcase or cabaret) maybe there has been confusion about the words used (just a possibility). Not a class routine.

Adam is merely making the point that doing a group routine is a help in preparing for a card assessment as it offers the opportunity to practice more difficult moves with a regular partner within a structured framework. It also gives you a chance to get more individualised attention from a teachers while you are working on the routine. Plus it's my personal experience that just the increase of time spent dancing improves your dancing tenfold (when I did my first routine I went from dancing 1-2 times a week to doing four classes a week plus weekend practices as well.)

After you've done a routine your dancing will be a lot better- and you'll probably have gotten to know the teacher a lot better during rehearsals (always helps) which will put you in a better position when you go for your card (during freestyle). However, the said assessment would not have anything to do with the routine you had just learnt- merely a good way to practice!

Hope this helps.

David Bailey

9th-February-2006, 12:03 AM

Have you ever done a routine?
Nah, I'm trying to give them up, I hear they cause cancer or something....

Seriously, I'm not quite sure where all the heat is coming from here; I just wanted some clarification on an area, and some definition of what a "Gold Card" meant, as I wasn't aware that there was another stage Beyond Blue. So to speak.

Sure, my impression (and I could be wrong) is that a routine-focussed exam probably wouldn't be appropriate for most of the advanced dancers in the UK - whoever they are. But all that means is that UK and Aussie styles and dance cultures have some differences. And that's blindingly obvious, again from the "What is Aussie style?" thread.

In case I haven't been massively clear, I repeat: these are differences, not "better" or "worse", just different. And different is good, it means that we can learn new things from Aussie dancers, and they can learn new things from us, a bit like dance trade I guess.

So what's the problem with all that? :confused: and genuinely :confused:

EDIT:

{ some actual information }

Hope this helps.
It does indeed - thanks, that clarifies things a lot.

ads

9th-February-2006, 12:05 AM

Doing a routine teaches you many thinks that assist in your dancing:
1.Helps you appreciate the music more and how you put moves to them.
2. Helps you with balance and the importance of precise leading and following so the moves are done correctly.
3. You get more time with the teacher to correct mistakes and often you hear things that you miss in class.
4. Teaches you the importance of positioning and not to over rotate and the importance of doing the move efficiently.
5. Builds confidence and improves presentation/styling
6. it is fun and often re-inspires you with your general dancing
7.helps with partner appreciation and floorcraft.
8.etc....etc...

Andreas

9th-February-2006, 12:09 AM

and I did say likely to have mastered
that likelyhood is exactly what I disputed ;)

I absolutely agree that routines are not the same as freestyle but doing one does give you a chance - especially if you don't have a regular dance partner - to repeat and work with someone on those moves, skills and technquie in it that one wouldn't other wise get. The other thing that routines give is the time to think about the finer details of the moves and exactly how they are being done.

taking that skill or move into freestyle is up to the individual - some will, some won't
I agree.

actually I would say that the only wayt to test that is by partnering up with an appropriate level dancer - that may be a less advanced dancer it may be and equially advanced dancer or it may be a more advanced dancer. The partner has to be of a level to cope with the move/technique you are using - using an advanced foot work lead on a beginner is not going to work well no matter what the skill of the more advanced dancer.
And this is where we differ again. There is little challenge in doing a move with a partner of 'appropriate' level unless it means nothing but 'not ABSOLUTE beginner. A good dancer is not (should/can not be) rated by how well he/she dancers with a person of similar or higher level (if that was your definition of appropriate). You recognise them by their ability to cope 'elegantly and safely' in difficult circumstances, such as a follower who has yet to learn to follow or a lead who has yet to learn to lead and does not remember signals.

Gadget

9th-February-2006, 12:14 AM

Have you ever done a routine?
So what's the advantages of doing a routine as opposed to geting a partner?

They both are one-on-one.
I would assume that with a single partner you can work on stuff you want to and areas that you see flaws in yourselves. (As opposed to being told this is what we are doing and this is how we are doing it.)

What does a routine gain over a simple partnership? :confused:

{edit}

Doing a routine teaches you many thinks that assist in your dancing:
1.Helps you appreciate the music more and how you put moves to them.
So does working with a partner or teacher or working out a solo(ie one couple) routine/move and how it can be timed with music.

2. Helps you with balance and the importance of precise leading and following so the moves are done correctly.
? I would contend this - would it not simply help move to where you should be rather than listening to the lead/follower and acting/reacting accordingly?

3. You get more time with the teacher to correct mistakes and often you hear things that you miss in class.
More time than a a couple get with a private lesson with a teacher? More focused on your dancing rather than getting you to dance like everyone else?

4. Teaches you the importance of positioning and not to over rotate and the importance of doing the move efficiently.
? Really? Might teach better floorcraft and awareness, but I don't see how it would teach anything else better than a couple.

5. Builds confidence and improves presentation/styling
True. But with a couple practicing for a competition, they would be working on this aspect as well - and not just to match everyone else, but to go to their own extents.

6. it is fun and often re-inspires you with your general dancing
I'll give you that one.

7.helps with partner appreciation and floorcraft.
Partner appreciation? How?

8.etc....etc...
which are???

Yliander

9th-February-2006, 12:19 AM

Nah, I'm trying to give them up, I hear they cause cancer or something....*giggle*– lies all lies – try one and you will know the truth

Seriously, I'm not quite sure where all the heat is coming from here; I just wanted some clarification on an area, and some definition of what a "Gold Card" meant, as I wasn't aware that there was another stage Beyond Blue. So to speak.

Sure, my impression (and I could be wrong) is that a routine-focussed exam probably wouldn't be appropriate for most of the advanced dancers in the UK - whoever they are. But all that means is that UK and Aussie styles and dance cultures have some differences. And that's blindingly obvious, again from the "What is Aussie style?" thread.

In case I haven't been massively clear, I repeat: these are differences, not "better" or "worse", just different. And different is good, it means that we can learn new things from Aussie dancers, and they can learn new things from us, a bit like dance trade I guess.

So what's the problem with all that? :confused: and genuinely :confused: “the heat” as you put it is coming I think from the fact that is that you keep going back to the gold card assessment equals having to do a full performance routine – it has been pointed out that Adam’s post didn’t say that, it has been explained that routines can be used as preparation.

Currently there is no Gold Card assessment criteria available online so sadly can’t clear up confusion as to what the assessment criteria is.

So I think the problem for the Aussies here is how many ways do you want us to say it - Performance routines can be used as a way to learn/prepare for gold card assessment – there is also an advanced course that can be done to prepare.

It would seem that Nicky’s post is the one that has created confusion here – and I would say that sometimes they assess people through a routine – if they want to be assessed but fall apart at the moment of assessment – I had a student who did this – I ended up assessing him in a dance he hadn’t asked me to assess him in – because every time he asked me to assess him on his readiness to move up to intermediate – he would fall apart not even able to the routine from that evenings class.

I think perhaps you would have been better off aksing specific questions about the Gold card and it’s requirements on the Aussie fourm – as it is an Australian thing and there are many more people there with experience of it to explain

as a further bit of explanation of what a gold card means it does impact on what level of some competitions you have to enter - if you have a gold card in CMJ Sydney and Ceroc Perth comps you are required to enter at advanced level.

Andreas

9th-February-2006, 12:26 AM

What does a routine gain over a simple partnership? :confused:
It relieves you of the burden to analyse your own imprefection. You have others to tell you.Less stress with your dance partner when he/she tells you because he/she doesn't need to.

1.Helps you appreciate the music more and how you put moves to them.
So does working with a partner or teacher or working out a solo(ie one couple) routine/move and how it can be timed with music.

2. Helps you with balance and the importance of precise leading and following so the moves are done correctly.
? I would contend this - would it not simply help move to where you should be rather than listening to the lead/follower and acting/reacting accordingly?

3. You get more time with the teacher to correct mistakes and often you hear things that you miss in class.
More time than a a couple get with a private lesson with a teacher? More focused on your dancing rather than getting you to dance like everyone else?

4. Teaches you the importance of positioning and not to over rotate and the importance of doing the move efficiently.
? Really? Might teach better floorcraft and awareness, but I don't see how it would teach anything else better than a couple.

5. Builds confidence and improves presentation/styling
True. But with a couple practicing for a competition, they would be working on this aspect as well - and not just to match everyone else, but to go to their own extents.

6. it is fun and often re-inspires you with your general dancing
I'll give you that one.

7.helps with partner appreciation and floorcraft.
Partner appreciation? How?

8.etc....etc...
which are???
Thanks

Yliander

9th-February-2006, 12:48 AM

So what's the advantages of doing a routine as opposed to geting a partner?

They both are one-on-one.
I would assume that with a single partner you can work on stuff you want to and areas that you see flaws in yourselves. (As opposed to being told this is what we are doing and this is how we are doing it.)

What does a routine gain over a simple partnership? :confused: it can be easier to get a partner for a routine than an on going freestyle partner due the fact that it is for a fixed routine and you are taught by teachers and guided through performance finesse

There are many dancers I would agree to do a routine with – but few I would take on as a freestyle dance partner. I n my experience a freestyle dance partnership requires a much higher level of personal commitment and dedication than a partnership for a single taught routine – also in freestyle partnership – for me at least personality click/gel is very important so that the partnership can really flourish and give both partner the opportunity to contribute and develop

1.Helps you appreciate the music more and how you put moves to them.
So does working with a partner or teacher or working out a solo(ie one couple) routine/move and how it can be timed with music. it is an alternative to these options – plus not everyone wants to do choreography or put themselves in the spot light of a solo routine

2. Helps you with balance and the importance of precise leading and following so the moves are done correctly.
? I would contend this - would it not simply help move to where you should be rather than listening to the lead/follower and acting/reacting accordingly? it may be a routine but the bulk of it does need to still be lead and followed

3. You get more time with the teacher to correct mistakes and often you hear things that you miss in class.
More time than a a couple get with a private lesson with a teacher? More focused on your dancing rather than getting you to dance like everyone else? it’s an alternative to privates – cheaper in terms of cost per hour – private lesson $50 per hour – routine $110 for 6 x 2 hour sessions.

4. Teaches you the importance of positioning and not to over rotate and the importance of doing the move efficiently.
? Really? Might teach better floorcraft and awareness, but I don't see how it would teach anything else better than a couple. think you want to finish your sentence here – routines are very good for developing skill in not over rotating and placing to the front – this is very much a performance skill. Can also show you the basics of how to set up moves so that the line/frame/pose you want to display is shown to the audience

5. Builds confidence and improves presentation/styling
True. But with a couple practicing for a competition, they would be working on this aspect as well - and not just to match everyone else, but to go to their own extents. it’s a way to build up confidence and presentation skills with out having to go out there all on your own – remember safety in numbers :smile:

6. it is fun and often re-inspires you with your general dancing
I'll give you that one. you are too kind

7.helps with partner appreciation and floorcraft.
Partner appreciation? How? partner appreciation – for the hundredth time you stuff up the move and your partner with a smile says that’s ok lets try it again. Floor craft – having to maintain floor position and move in relation to other couples

8.etc....etc...
which are??? what you want more?! Than that already listed

Gadget

9th-February-2006, 12:55 AM

what you want more?! Than that already listed
Yup. I'm still not convinced. :flower:

It seems that the argument for them is that it's a 'soft' alternative to finding a dance partner. But I think that this is more to do with the expectations of having a dance partner.

I think there is a closer(and better) comparison between the routines and a partner to practice with rather than a full blown dance partner

Yliander

9th-February-2006, 01:01 AM

It seems that the argument for them is that it's a 'soft' alternative to finding a dance partner. But I think that this is more to do with the expectations of having a dance partner. an alternative yes - Soft HARDLEY! especially if you choose to perform/compete as part of the team - while you are personally protected you then have the added responsibility to not only your partner but to you other team mates

I think there is a closer(and better) comparison between the routines and a partner to practice with rather than a full blown dance partnerhave you ever tried to find either a partner to practise with or dance partner? neither are particulary easy to come by I can assure.

basically it comes down to the fact that there are benifits from learning and performing (if you choose to) routines. there are also down sides

but there can also be down sides to partners to practise with and dance partners

ads

9th-February-2006, 02:27 AM

ads

9th-February-2006, 02:33 AM

Nah, I'm trying to give them up, I hear they cause cancer or something....

This would explain your distast and misunderstanding about them then!

David Bailey

9th-February-2006, 09:28 AM

*giggle*– lies all lies – try one and you will know the truth
I'll resist, I am strong. OK, I'm lazy and forgetful, how's that?

“the heat” as you put it is coming I think from the fact that is that you keep going back to the gold card assessment equals having to do a full performance routine
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, I simply said that there seemed to be a large routine-based assessment for Gold Card.

It turns out this is not the case, and thanks again to Alice for calmly and patiently clarifying the situation to me :flower: - basically, the Aussie Forum thread was talking about both Gold and Blue cards, and it wasn't clear which post referred to which card, hence my confusion.

I think perhaps you would have been better off aksing specific questions about the Gold card and it’s requirements on the Aussie fourm – as it is an Australian thing and there are many more people there with experience of it to explain

as a further bit of explanation of what a gold card means it does impact on what level of some competitions you have to enter - if you have a gold card in CMJ Sydney and Ceroc Perth comps you are required to enter at advanced level.
This thread is on this forum - and I started it here because I wondered whether people in the UK thought that the card system, or a variant of some such system, could be useful over here.

Despite what some people think, I do have an open mind occasionally, and I think (on balance) some sort of assessment system, if done properly, could very much help progress Ceroc teaching and dancing in the UK. Which is the only reason I'm banging on about it...

David Bailey

9th-February-2006, 09:38 AM

it may be a routine but the bulk of it does need to still be lead and followed
As you've cunningly discerned, I've stayed clear of performance routines, it's too much like line dancing for my tastes (I run away when "It's Madison Time" is announced too) :devil:

routines are very good for developing skill in not over rotating and placing to the front – this is very much a performance skill. Can also show you the basics of how to set up moves so that the line/frame/pose you want to display is shown to the audience

it’s a way to build up confidence and presentation skills with out having to go out there all on your own – remember safety in numbers :smile:
Ah-ha! :clap: :clap:

This is the key thing I'm talking about when I say differences.

Based on what I've read and heard, a lot of advanced teaching in Oz seems to be oriented around visuals and presentation, i.e. focussing on how it looks.

You generally don't get much of that type of teaching in the UK, we're well behind you on that score. With the exception of the occasional "Competition dancing" workshop run by Nigel and Nina, A lot of advanced teaching in the UK seems to be more focussed on how it feels - connection, intention, and so on.

This would explain your distast and misunderstanding about them then!
Possibly. I am just a beginner.

Boy you guys like argueing for the sake of it
Darn, you caught us out. But, by Gadget standards, that post was a mere brief aide-memoire, barely worth mentioning... :devil:

Gadget

9th-February-2006, 02:02 PM

Boy you guys like argueing for the sake of it no one has ever said that you can not get this from other ways we just say that routines can help your dancing.
:confused: isn't this a forum?
In the context of this thread and the discussion about routines, they were being proposed as the best guideline for determining a truley "advanced" dancer - ie a "Gold Card" holder. So the implication is that to be a truley "advanced" dancer, one must excell in performing routines.

This being the case, I raised the question what exactly can learning routines give you that standard dancing (with a partner) cannot?

an alternative yes - Soft HARDLEY!Perhaps. I think that the focus is on different areas of dancing - too similar to make a good comparison: each element of 'dance partner' practice could focus on stuff you would get in 'dance routine' practice. And visa versa. The main trade off seems to be individual focus and development Vs comradeship.

have you ever tried to find either a partner to practise with or dance partner? neither are particulary easy to come by I can assure.I have been/had a practice partner {:flower:}. It's nice to have someone to give feedback and ask opinions (and try stuff out on... but then again, I have been known to do this on a regular night with some of the 'usual suspects' :innocent: ) Perhaps I should ressurect this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=993) and save them :wink:

I have no desire to compete, so a I've never looked for a dance partner.

But, by Gadget standards, that post was a mere brief aide-memoire, barely worth mentioning... :devil::na:

Yliander

9th-February-2006, 11:16 PM

I'll resist, I am strong. OK, I'm lazy and forgetful, how's that? :rofl:

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, I simply said that there seemed to be a large routine-based assessment for Gold Card.

It turns out this is not the case, and thanks again to Alice for calmly and patiently clarifying the situation to me :flower: - basically, the Aussie Forum thread was talking about both Gold and Blue cards, and it wasn't clear which post referred to which card, hence my confusion.

This thread is on this forum - and I started it here because I wondered whether people in the UK thought that the card system, or a variant of some such system, could be useful over here. this thread maybe on this forum but the thread and posts that confused you were in a different forum - so to me it would have made more sense to ask about gold care assessments requirements there and on this forum once you had an answer ask what people thought of that.

Despite what some people think, I do have an open mind occasionally, and I think (on balance) some sort of assessment system, if done properly, could very much help progress Ceroc teaching and dancing in the UK. Which is the only reason I'm banging on about it... :worthy: this is very honourable of you :flower:

David Bailey

9th-February-2006, 11:22 PM

this thread maybe on this forum but the thread and posts that confused you were in a different forum - so to me it would have made more sense to ask about gold care assessments requirements there and on this forum once you had an answer ask what people thought of that.
In hindsight, yes - so many quotes from that thread. I notice there's a Gold Cards thread appeared there now though :whistle:

:worthy: this is very honourable of you :flower:
I wish - pig-stubborn is more like it. :blush:

Yliander

9th-February-2006, 11:29 PM

In hindsight, yes - so many quotes from that thread. I notice there's a Gold Cards thread appeared there now though :whistle: yes Alice had posted in the original thread but a new thread gets peoples attention much more

I wish - pig-stubborn is more like it. :blush::rofl: and stubborn is a bad thing?:confused:

Andreas

9th-February-2006, 11:30 PM

I think (on balance)
Now THAT is good to know :whistle: :yum: :D :rofl:

Gary

10th-February-2006, 12:28 AM

...A good dancer is not (should/can not be) rated by how well he/she dancers with a person of similar or higher level (if that was your definition of appropriate). You recognise them by their ability to cope 'elegantly and safely' in difficult circumstances, such as a follower who has yet to learn to follow or a lead who has yet to learn to lead and does not remember signals.
That seems to me like saying "a good hurdler isn't recognised by how well they hurdle on a good day, but how well they hurdle when you tie their shoelaces together".

It's nice when a great dancer also makes beginners look good, but I wouldn't say "huh, he's not so great, watch what happens when he dances with a beginner".

Alice

10th-February-2006, 12:47 AM

That seems to me like saying "a good hurdler isn't recognised by how well they hurdle on a good day, but how well they hurdle when you tie their shoelaces together".

Tee hee!! :rofl: Great image:)
Seriously though, the man has a point. :cheers: :whistle:

Robert Winter

10th-February-2006, 01:00 AM

Another "interesting" thread.

I will just throw my 2 cents worth of petrol onto the fire (though, with todays price of oil it will not be nearly as inflammatory as it use to be :mad: ).

We do use routines as an assessment for Gold cards. But it is important to not over stress the word routine in this sentence and to look at the words that are not said. "8 weeks during which teachers are watching you for two hours at a time and will take video footage of your dancing and give you personal feedback on that".

This is the most important aspect of our assessment process and for me makes the system about as good as it can get. I am not going to argue the pros and cons of a card system, but if one wishes to be assessed then I think it is much better for that assessment to be ongoing than to be based on a single freestyle dance.

Ste

10th-February-2006, 02:44 AM

Do you get a yellow card if you trip someone up and a red card if you are really rubbish?

Yliander

10th-February-2006, 02:55 AM

Do you get a yellow card if you trip someone up and a red card if you are really rubbish?in Perth (Aus) your yellow card was when you moved from beginners to intermediate

i do recall a red card being issued once - but think that was more to do with mischief than actual dancing *giggle*

Alice

10th-February-2006, 03:44 AM

in Perth (Aus) your yellow card was when you moved from beginners to intermediate

i do recall a red card being issued once - but think that was more to do with mischief than actual dancing *giggle*
He he he...

Another company in Sydney has a card for when you move from beginners to intermediate (you had to be assessed). They don't have a blue card equivalent however (or IA classes for that matter)- think they might have a gold card for advanced classes once or twice a year...but ever hardly spoken of.

adss

10th-February-2006, 05:17 AM

So no offense intended, Adrian. :cheers:

I hate to come across self centred, but was this comment referring to me? Keep in mind that my login is "Adss" and NOT "Ads" :) ... I'll let Ads know about your comment when I'll speak to him on the phone next. :cheers:

adss

10th-February-2006, 05:37 AM

That seems to me like saying "a good hurdler isn't recognised by how well they hurdle on a good day, but how well they hurdle when you tie their shoelaces together".

It's nice when a great dancer also makes beginners look good, but I wouldn't say "huh, he's not so great, watch what happens when he dances with a beginner".

Gary, LIVE IT ALONE!!! I love this definition of Advance Dancers as I can finally refer myself as one: particularly as I can lead at least three (on a good day) beginner moves with first timers. :rofl: :rofl:
:wink:

David Bailey

10th-February-2006, 08:53 AM

That seems to me like saying "a good hurdler isn't recognised by how well they hurdle on a good day, but how well they hurdle when you tie their shoelaces together".
Interesting image, but I think the point is more that anyone can run fast when the hurdles are 1" high - only the good hurdlers can make it look smooth when they're set at 3 feet or whatever.

Although I'm not sure a co-operative endeavour such as partner dancing can be compared with a solo sport such as hurdling. But yes, it's quite funny :)

Andreas

10th-February-2006, 08:58 AM

That seems to me like saying "a good hurdler isn't recognised by how well they hurdle on a good day, but how well they hurdle when you tie their shoelaces together".
:rofl: That is indeed a very funny image that you project here. But the analogy is heavily flawed and you know that. Trying to gather votes by ridiculing an argument with a flawed analogy is something not even I or DJ would resort to. :wink:

It's nice when a great dancer also makes beginners look good, but I wouldn't say "huh, he's not so great, watch what happens when he dances with a beginner".
Well, actually I would. I don't think very highly of so-called advanced dancers that can do sod all with beginners and lower intermediates.

Seriously though, the man has a point.
If you think about the analogy that Gary used and try to apply it to dancing and my argument you will in fact realise: he doesn't. He does have a point to make in what he wrote afterwards.

"8 weeks during which teachers are watching you for two hours at a time and will take video footage of your dancing and give you personal feedback on that".
Now that is something I agree with. I guess it is not surprising that you actually put thought into it because you developed the idea. :wink: Due to my reservations of judging dancers by their ability to dance with people of similar levels I wouldn't call it 'as good as it gets' but having them under close observation for such a long time is certainly a good means, more so if the emphasis really is on checking up on their technique. :clap:

I hate to come across self centred, but was this comment referring to me? Keep in mind that my login is "Adss" and NOT "Ads" ... I'll let Ads know about your comment when I'll speak to him on the phone next.
Yeah sorry. Noticed too late that you have two 's' at the end of your nick name. :cheers:

Andreas

10th-February-2006, 09:00 AM

Interesting image, but I think the point is more that anyone can run fast when the hurdles are 1" high - only the good hurdlers can make it look smooth when they're set at 3 feet or whatever.

Although I'm not sure a co-operative endeavour such as partner dancing can be compared with a solo sport such as hurdling. But yes, it's quite funny :)
I knew we would be broadcasting at the same frequency. :D

David Bailey

10th-February-2006, 09:17 AM

Trying to gather votes by ridiculing an argument with a flawed analogy is something not even I or DJ would resort to. :wink:

Really? Ahem.

Oh. Yes. Definitely. The thought never crossed my mind. I'd never do anything like that.

Good technique to bear in mind though. :whistle:

Gary

11th-February-2006, 05:05 AM

:rofl: That is indeed a very funny image that you project here. But the analogy is heavily flawed and you know that. Trying to gather votes by ridiculing an argument with a flawed analogy is something not even I or DJ would resort to. :wink:

Don't try to tell me what I know, you might be wrong (like now).

My analogy is correct/flawed depending on whether or not you view "dances well with beginners" as a fundamental measure of an advanced dancer (you do, I don't).

In excruciating detail:

abstract: Measure of {performance} is not {fundamental measure}, but {related, but not fundamental measure}

dancing: Measure of {advanced dancer} is not {dancing fantastically with someone} but {dancing with a beginner}

hurdling: Measure of {great hurdler} is not {hurdling under normal conditions} but {hurdling with shoelaces tied together}

I'm probably committing some sort of debating fallacy by basing my analogy on my world-view, but using a "known" "heavily flawed analogy" isn't it.

Summarising heavily: my definition of "advanced dancer" does not require "dances well with beginners", yours does. It seems like everyone has their own definition of "advanced dancer", and it's kinda pointless trying to argue everyone into having the same definition (instead we can use some more precise (if more wordy) terms (e.g. "person who dances well with beginners", "person who looks amazing dancing with their regular partner" ...))

David Bailey

12th-February-2006, 10:15 PM

My analogy is correct/flawed depending on whether or not you view "dances well with beginners" as a fundamental measure of an advanced dancer (you do, I don't).

In excruciating detail:

abstract: Measure of {performance} is not {fundamental measure}, but {related, but not fundamental measure}

dancing: Measure of {advanced dancer} is not {dancing fantastically with someone} but {dancing with a beginner}

hurdling: Measure of {great hurdler} is not {hurdling under normal conditions} but {hurdling with shoelaces tied together}

I'm probably committing some sort of debating fallacy by basing my analogy on my world-view, but using a "known" "heavily flawed analogy" isn't it.

Summarising heavily: my definition of "advanced dancer" does not require "dances well with beginners", yours does. It seems like everyone has their own definition of "advanced dancer", and it's kinda pointless trying to argue everyone into having the same definition (instead we can use some more precise (if more wordy) terms (e.g. "person who dances well with beginners", "person who looks amazing dancing with their regular partner" ...))
I agree that there is no common definition of "advanced dancer" in MJ - but the "dances with everyone, especially beginners" version is a common definition - I've certainly seen it a few times. So, but this isn't just Andreas' opinion - he's subscribing to a school of thought. Of course, it's fine to disagree, but bear in mind this is not just something he's made up. (And yes, I too subscribe to that school, obviously)

And if you do disagree, it helps if you say both what's wrong with that definition in your opinion, and what your definition / school of thought is, on the matter.

The reason I don't think the hurdling analogy is sensible is:

Hurdling is a solo sport; dancing is neither solo nor a sport. Unless people go to freestyle hurdling nights. :)
It's very easy to define who the best hurdler is; it's much more difficult to judge who the best dancer is
Hurdlers would never tie their shoelaces together, but advanced dancers do generally (and IMO should) dance with beginners on a regular basis.

Although this discussion has convinced me that, whether or not a blue-card type of system would be good in the UK, a gold-card system would be a nightmare...

adss

12th-February-2006, 10:57 PM

dancing is neither solo nor a sport. Unless people go to freestyle hurdling nights. :)

These guys might disagree with you:

http://www.dancesport.uk.com/

And the dictionary states:

SPORT
a. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
b. A particular form of this activity.
c. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
d. An active pastime; recreation.

I'd say that dancing 'might' qualify as a sport.

:cheers:

Andreas

12th-February-2006, 11:41 PM

a. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
c. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.

I'd say that dancing 'might' qualify as a sport.

:cheers:
And I thought we had in numerous threads established that dancing is 'rarely' engaged in competitively. If I remember correctly then this was the fundamental argument that people brought up to classify OZ style and pretty much every single OZ dancer/representative on this forum contested it by stating that only a small number of people actually do it competitively. So 'often' is hardly applicable.

But as we all know, it is all just semantics. :cheers:

Gary

13th-February-2006, 12:00 AM

...
Although this discussion has convinced me that, whether or not a blue-card type of system would be good in the UK, a gold-card system would be a nightmare...
Huh? Why? I suspect that just as over here, it would be an irrelevancy more than anything else. Important Person X saying (or not) (on a piece of cardboard) "you are an advanced dancer" doesn't make all that much difference.

Yliander

13th-February-2006, 12:02 AM

I agree that there is no common definition of "advanced dancer" in MJ - but the "dances with everyone, especially beginners" version is a common definition - I've certainly seen it a few times. So, but this isn't just Andreas' opinion - he's subscribing to a school of thought. Of course, it's fine to disagree, but bear in mind this is not just something he's made up. (And yes, I too subscribe to that school, obviously) - beginners will dance with everyone, especially beginners (because they are in their comfort zone with them) - I don’t see how who someone dances with can be used to indicate their level – I see that statement as a criteria of an advanced dancers as highly flawed as it is not a skill based thing – it’s a personality based criteria which probably belongs in the definition of what makes a great dancer rather than what is an advanced dancer

Although this discussion has convinced me that, whether or not a blue-card type of system would be good in the UK, a gold-card system would be a nightmare... aww but you don’t even know what the assessment criteria is for a gold card

And I thought we had in numerous threads established that dancing is 'rarely' engaged in competitively. If I remember correctly then this was the fundamental argument that people brought up to classify OZ style and pretty much every single OZ dancer/representative on this forum contested it by stating that only a small number of people actually do it competitively. So 'often' is hardly applicable. in Australia we have 5 comps a year, I can think of just as many that I have seen mentioned on this forum for the UK
The definition of rare is

Coming or occurring far apart in space of time; unusual; uncommon
Few in number
Thinly distributed over an area or few and widely separated
Having the component parts not closely compacted; of low density or pressure
Remarkable or unusual, especially in excellence or greatness

I don’t think comps in either Australia or UK fall into that definition although they are not something the majority of dancers participate in.

But as we all know, it is all just semantics. :cheers: got to love semantics:flower:

Andreas

13th-February-2006, 12:36 AM

in Australia we have 5 comps a year, I can think of just as many that I have seen mentioned on this forum for the UK
The definition of rare is

Coming or occurring far apart in space of time; unusual; uncommon
Few in number
Thinly distributed over an area or few and widely separated
Having the component parts not closely compacted; of low density or pressure
Remarkable or unusual, especially in excellence or greatness

I don’t think comps in either Australia or UK fall into that definition although they are not something the majority of dancers participate in.

got to love semantics:flower:

You mean 3% is NOT rare? What is? For OZ or the UK only it'd be 1.5% of all days of a year. This has to be rare. It certainly isn't often.

Yeah, gotta love them semantics :hug:

Gadget

13th-February-2006, 02:34 PM

:yeah: to all the dissagreement with "Dance"="Sport"

d. An active pastime; recreation.I'd agree that dancing could be grouped in with this part of the definition of 'sport'. But so could stamp collecting or knitting.

Oh, and if anyone agrees with a complete set of "Rules" for MJ, then I will be shocked and stunned.

David Bailey

13th-February-2006, 05:02 PM

- beginners will dance with everyone, especially beginners (because they are in their comfort zone with them) - I don’t see how who someone dances with can be used to indicate their level – I see that statement as a criteria of an advanced dancers as highly flawed as it is not a skill based thing – it’s a personality based criteria which probably belongs in the definition of what makes a great dancer rather than what is an advanced dancer
I don't agree - I believe it is a skill-based assessment, which answers the "what is an advanced dancer" from a "social dancer" POV rather than a "competition / exhibition dancer" POV. But my main point was to say that this is a viewpoint that's been around a while, is all.

The whole quote (e.g. from PJay here (http://www.cerocforum.com/showpost.php?p=41257&postcount=210)) says:

Beginner Dancer: Dances with everyone.
Intermediate Dancer: To good to dance with beginners.
Hot Shot Dancer: To good to dance with anyone.
Advanced Dancer: Dances with everyone, especially beginners.

But, let's be clear - there's no consensus about what is an advanced dancer, anywhere, in the UK or in Australia (as evidenced by this thread (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=1039)). So it's all opinion-based at the moment.

Although, interestingly, this Ceroc Forum thread (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=1903) comes close to defining what the skillset of a Gold Card-holding advanced dancer is:

Musical Interpretation
Floorcraft & Use of Space
Body Rhythm & Movement
Aerials & Lift Technique
Styling
Choreographical Skills
Performance Skills & “Capturing” an Audience
Couple Chemistry & the “X” Factor
Body Lines & Extensions in eg, Dips & Drops

aww but you don’t even know what the assessment criteria is for a gold card
Which is exactly the problem, and why I think an "Advanced dancer" card would be a very very bad idea for the UK, because there's no consensus as to what an advanced dancer is. Combined with the fact that there are no clear national standards for "advanced classes", I think a gold card, in the current UK climate, could be divisive and not useful.

The same cannot be said for blue cards, which to me can be clearly defined, and meet a definite set of requirements (for example, ensuring a minimum standard of leading / following before doing intermediate / advanced classes).

So, to sum up, I think an "intermediate assessment" process would be useful in the UK, but an "advanced assessment" would not be. Perhaps if intermediate assessments were well-established, there would then be more clarity and progression towards advanced assessments; but one step at a time.

ChrisA

13th-February-2006, 08:02 PM

I don't agree - I believe it is a skill-based assessment
This "definition" you use of an advanced dancer:

Beginner Dancer: Dances with everyone.
Intermediate Dancer: Too good to dance with beginners.
Hot Shot Dancer: Too good to dance with anyone.
Advanced Dancer: Dances with everyone, especially beginners.

... is just silly in this context.

It's been around a while, but its function was in the context of defining hotshots, not advanced dancers, and was used specifically to explain one particular aspect of hotshots, namely that sometimes they're not as good as they are imagined to think they are - and that the level of "advanced dancer" is beyond that of "hotshot".

The idea that just dancing with beginners makes someone advanced is just a nonsense.

Now it may well be that an advanced dancer will be better able to give a beginner a nice dance, and one that makes the said beginner look and feel better while dancing. It may also be that you can sometimes tell which of two dancers is more advanced in some respects, by seeing how he or she dances with a beginner.

But it's not the dancing with beginners that makes them advanced - it's their being advanced that enables them to dance better with beginners.

Are you also disputing that this hypothetical advanced dancer you're talking about will be able to dance better with another such, than with the beginner?

Andreas

13th-February-2006, 08:47 PM

The idea that just dancing with beginners makes someone advanced is just a nonsense.
Totally agree with that one. But I don't think it was DJ's intention to say that.

It may also be that you can sometimes tell which of two dancers is more advanced in some respects, by seeing how he or she dances with a beginner.

But it's not the dancing with beginners that makes them advanced - it's their being advanced that enables them to dance better with beginners.
And? As far as I understand the entire previous discussion this is what DJ (and I) postulated. So you are agreeing then?

Are you also disputing that this hypothetical advanced dancer you're talking about will be able to dance better with another such, than with the beginner?
Nobody would dispute that because that'd just be silly. ;)

David Bailey

13th-February-2006, 08:51 PM

{ snip stuff about advanced dancers, which frankly I didn't read too much... }
Are you also disputing that this hypothetical advanced dancer you're talking about will be able to dance better with another such, than with the beginner?
I'm not saying anything, because I'm profoundly uninterested in turning this into another "What is an advanced dancer" thread. In fact, I remember being slapped down early last year by someone for asking that very question. :blush:

My only point was to say that there are several definitions, and that was one of them.

But yes, I'm happy to concede that definition is junk, if it'll stop us talking about it, and go back to the original point of this thread, which is about assessment systems for MJ / Ceroc dancers, and whether such systems would be a Good or Bad thing in the UK.

And I repeat, my point - yes I did have one - was to demonstrate the inherent problems of a Gold Card system in the UK, because of this very lack of clarity of definition - no-one can get a solid definition of advanced dancers yet.

Hope that's, err, clear...

AndrewMc

13th-February-2006, 11:50 PM

Kiddies, Kiddies, Settle Down

Yliander

14th-February-2006, 01:45 AM

and go back to the original point of this thread, which is about assessment systems for MJ / Ceroc dancers, and whether such systems would be a Good or Bad thing in the UK. Ok then back on topic – I think opt in development systems outside of competition are good for Modern Jive what ever the country.

Obviously the implementing of such programs has to be handled with care and consideration – for those that come to the system new to modern jive for them it will just be the way that it always was. Those that are already involved in Modern Jive are likely to find it scary and not what they consider to be the Modern Jive “way”.

Most people find it hard to gauge their development with out clear markers/goals to achieve – and this is what the card system provides for those that want it.

It is also a way to develop a depth to Modern Jive beyond it’s an easy fun social dance – for modern jive to grow dancers of all levels need to be actively developed - just because in the past people had to do it all themselves doesn’t mean it needs to go on that way

In addition to just having the cards and assessments – there needs to be a point/reward to it – ie in Perth (aus) once you had passed your yellow card intermediate classes are yours for the taking , in Sydney once you have your blue or gold card there are specific classes that are available to you

*note talking about an opt in system only - except perhaps for the very first step from beginners to open intermediate *cringes at horrors of beginners self promoting to intermediate in their second week*

And I repeat, my point - yes I did have one - was to demonstrate the inherent problems of a Gold Card system in the UK, because of this very lack of clarity of definition - no-one can get a solid definition of advanced dancers yet. Of course there is a lack of clarity – there isn’t a system in the UK as yet - the only way for some clarity to develop is for someone to go this is what I think/believe and stand up and doing something to support that ie in their classes have some measurable goals for students to achieve and gain from – because we can discuss the definitions to death but it doesn’t make them real.

*dives under fire blanket*

Gadget

14th-February-2006, 01:46 PM

Those that are already involved in Modern Jive are likely to find it scary and not what they consider to be the Modern Jive “way”.Just because something is new, does not mean that it is good. Just because existing MJ people may see a 'card' system as not the MJ "way" does not imply that it's "scary" or that there is nothing behind this resistance other than insubstantial feelings of unease.

Most people find it hard to gauge their development with out clear markers/goals to achieve – and this is what the card system provides for those that want it. "for those that want it"? So having a card means you have reached X standard. So not having a card means that you are not of X standard.
You want to gauge how good you are, then ask a teacher. You want to compare yourself with other dancer's ability, then enter a competition. Other than that, there are other goals you can set yourself (discussed in other threads)

A card system is a line in the sand for people to stand on one side or the other. One of the best things about MJ is it's obliteration of lines separating race, class, size, age,... and you want to impose a fixed line of Ability. :mad: There are other ways to achieve the same goals without such a blatant line.

It is also a way to develop a depth to Modern Jive beyond it’s an easy fun social dance – for modern jive to grow dancers of all levels need to be actively developed - just because in the past people had to do it all themselves doesn’t mean it needs to go on that wayI'm unsure of the grammar in the first bit: are you implying that MJ should develop beyond being a fun, social dance? If so, I disagree - "beyond" means leaving the old behind as it progresses forward.

People have never had to develop their dancing or MJ themselves in the past. There is a good system of workshops and teachers always willing to help. I fail to see how a card system would give more to the dancer than a standard beginner/beginner+/intermediate workshop. Especially when the small and focused workshops provide a comradeship between dancers that survives through all the persons dancing.

In addition to just having the cards and assessments – there needs to be a point/reward to it – ie in Perth (aus) once you had passed your yellow card intermediate classes are yours for the taking , in Sydney once you have your blue or gold card there are specific classes that are available to youSo you have to have the card to gain access to these resources. What part of "optional" is this then? You want to travel? Well a passport is optional, as long as you stay in your own country. You may be the best dancer in the world, but not have a card, so are unable to attend something because you are deemed not to be of a sufficiently high standard for that class.

*note talking about an opt in system only - except perhaps for the very first step from beginners to open intermediate *cringes at horrors of beginners self promoting to intermediate in their second week*
:confused: what horrors? It's the way the system works just now: Someone moving up too soon been done before, and will be done again - How is this a bad thing?

Of course there is a lack of clarity – there isn’t a system in the UK as yet - the only way for some clarity to develop is for someone to go this is what I think/believe and stand up and doing something to support that ie in their classes have some measurable goals for students to achieve and gain from – because we can discuss the definitions to death but it doesn’t make them real.I am all for giving goals, but I don't think that a card system with all the extra policing is the way to do it.

And what is the point of just having one 'brand' of MJ implementing a card system? Each one will have different criteria. What about those folks who drift from venue to venue? Go to events and weekenders from out with the organisational base - are they going to be turned away because of the lack of 'card'?

Yliander

15th-February-2006, 12:24 AM

i know i'm a glutton for punishment but here goes ...

Just because something is new, does not mean that it is good. Just because existing MJ people may see a 'card' system as not the MJ "way" does not imply that it's "scary" or that there is nothing behind this resistance other than insubstantial feelings of unease. but over all most people dislike change – simply because it is change

"for those that want it"? So having a card means you have reached X standard. So not having a card means that you are not of X standard.
You want to gauge how good you are, then ask a teacher. You want to compare yourself with other dancer's ability, then enter a competition. Other than that, there are other goals you can set yourself (discussed in other threads) cards are not about comparing yourself to another dancer but achieving a defined skill set – plus NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO COMPETE

A card system is a line in the sand for people to stand on one side or the other. One of the best things about MJ is it's obliteration of lines separating race, class, size, age,... and you want to impose a fixed line of Ability. :mad: There are other ways to achieve the same goals without such a blatant line. what about giving people a common goal – outside of competition – is mad? Why would it cause separation on the lines of “race, class, size. age”?

I'm unsure of the grammar in the first bit: are you implying that MJ should develop beyond being a fun, social dance? If so, I disagree - "beyond" means leaving the old behind as it progresses forward. what I was trying to say and said very badly – was that MJ is a baby of dance and due to it’s lack of any sort of defined skill sets, no common/universal comp rules, no national/international governing body is not seen as a serious or proper dance by other more established dances. Developing MJ beyond a purely fun social dance does not require leaving that behind it just means having more layers to it which has already happened with competitions – development programs just fill in the steps between

People have never had to develop their dancing or MJ themselves in the past. There is a good system of workshops and teachers always willing to help. I fail to see how a card system would give more to the dancer than a standard beginner/beginner+/intermediate workshop. Especially when the small and focused workshops provide a comradeship between dancers that survives through all the persons dancing.

So you have to have the card to gain access to these resources. What part of "optional" is this then? You want to travel? Well a passport is optional, as long as you stay in your own country. You may be the best dancer in the world, but not have a card, so are unable to attend something because you are deemed not to be of a sufficiently high standard for that class. card systems in no way prevent someone from doing a standard social class or general workshop.

What occasional carded workshops/ additional speciality class means is that the teachers and students know that everyone in said workshop will have x skills as a minimum.

For me optional is I can go to social classes with freedom, do general workshops enter comps – dance having a lot of fun where ever I go – but if I want to do that 1 once a month tougher class the teachers need to know I have the min skills so will have to do a x card assessment. People could go their entire MJ life and never do a card assessment and still enjoy classes and workshops

:confused: what horrors? It's the way the system works just now: Someone moving up too soon been done before, and will be done again - How is this a bad thing? seriously!?!?! You don’t think people self promoting before they is ready causes problems in a class?

And what is the point of just having one 'brand' of MJ implementing a card system? Each one will have different criteria. What about those folks who drift from venue to venue? Go to events and weekenders from out with the organisational base - are they going to be turned away because of the lack of 'card'? cards should not impact on ones ability to attend standard social classes. Obviously if company uses cards then it is up to them to ensure that if that one is required for a workshopr/event/additional speciality class then that fact is made clear and have a plan for being fair to those from other areas that may wish to attend.

Personally I have never found the card system as used in Sydney particuarly noticable - I had no idea of what it was prior to attending my first comp in sydney in 2004 - on the thursday night prior to the comps there was and Gold & Blue card - interstate visitors were advised that if they were competing advanced they could enter the gold card rotation, those competeting interemediate A could enter the blue card rotation and everyone else there was a standard intermediate type class . In 2005 as an advanced interstate competitor I was permitted to enter the gold card rotation. But to be perfectly honest if CMJ had said to me sorry with out X card you will need to go to the intermediate class I wouldn't have been offended - dissapointed on being with some of my friends but - then again what ever level class i go to some people I know won't be in it.

since then I have obtained my blue card - was interested to see how I would go - and will proberly go for my gold card sometime - the thing I like about the cards is that they are a reflection of my skill and abilities as an individual not with a specific partner

Also where one goes others will follow – cards are issued by CMJ in Sydney – but I have seen references to them in comp rules in other states

And what is the point of there being no MJ development programs because there are multiple companies?

Gadget

15th-February-2006, 02:21 AM

i know i'm a glutton for punishment but here goes ..."discussion" - it's only "punishment" when it feels like you're banging your head against a brick wall :whistle:

but over all most people dislike change – simply because it is changeOver all, most people like change - simply because it's new, fresh and exciting.

The same nonsensical argument can be made from both sides; there is no point in trying to mark every opposition to the cards as based on 'emotion' rather than 'fact', because the same can be said for supporters of it.

cards are not about comparing yourself to another dancer but achieving a defined skill set – plus NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO COMPETETrue - not everyone wants to compete. I don't.
But I dislike the fact that it is stating "you must have these skills before you are a "good" dancer." True, you won't be at a disadvantage by learning them, but who is to say that this is the direction you want to learn in? It is very close to trying to define what is and is not MJ.

Why is a card the best way to work towards a predefined skill set? I think that dancers would get more out of (and perhaps gain a wider and more 'stable' set of basic skills) by attending the "basic" workshops. If you think that people should be able to do x,y and z before going on a workshop/into a class, then state it on the literature and have teachers who stick to the curriculum rather than dumbing it down for those who fail to meet the criteria asked for.

what about giving people a common goal – outside of competition – is mad?People have a common goal: to dance better. Most folk have their own list of personal goals they want to make in order to achieve this. What the 'card' system does is give them a list of things that can be checked off. But it's not them that decides when to do each thing, if there are other things that they would rather work on, and it's not them that checks them off. The control of the dancer's own development is being taken out of the dancer's hands and placed in the hands of 'the collective'.

If you could simply produce a personal checklist of things that make a better dancer for people to mark themselves off against, in their own time, then I think it would be a brilliant idea.

Why would it cause separation on the lines of “race, class, size. age”? Separation /segregation. Those with the card in this line: those without on that. Blacks sit on those seats: Whites on those. You have said yourself that the lack of card is not an indication of lack of ability, but are separating as if it is.

what I was trying to say and said very badly – was that MJ is a baby of dance and due to it’s lack of any sort of defined skill sets, no common/universal comp rules, no national/international governing body is not seen as a serious or proper dance by other more established dances.
I disagree that these things make MJ a "baby" of dance. I think to the contrary: they make it the king of dance - the fact that the 'more established dances' don't see it as a "serious or proper" dance is nothing to do with it.
You can't have any defined skill set other than a general one because of the variety and all-encompassing nature of the dance.
You can't have universal rules because each dancer dances their interpretation of the music. Each rule would have to have multiple exceptions, and these have exceptions... I've seen more definitions of MJ based on what it's not rather than what it is - it is constantly evolving and drawing from every other dance form.

Developing MJ beyond a purely fun social dance does not require leaving that behind it just means having more layers to it which has already happened with competitions – development programs just fill in the steps between :confused: So you should develop skills that are of no use to the "fun and social" aspects of the dance? That is developing/improving it? I think that more connection and musicality skills should be developed that would help these aspects.
Presentation skills are only of use to those performing rather than dancing: yes they can be added into MJ, but I don't think that they are an advancement of the dance - more an off-shoot or "plugin".

card systems in no way prevent someone from doing a standard social class or general workshop.

What occasional carded workshops/ additional speciality class means is that the teachers and students know that everyone in said workshop will have x skills as a minimum.Because you don't trust your dancers to police themselves? or the teachers to teach people of that level? or the organisers to make the level required clear?
Why not make these workshops a two tiered thing: "workshop II" only available to those who have been on "workshop I"

So someone without a card cannot progress in their dancing beyond a certain level unless they go for private tutorage. Why should I 'go for' a card when I know I can fulfil all the requirements? It would waste time/resources that I could be using to have fun dancing. Or going to a workshop where I might learn some more rather than showing what I already know.

seriously!?!?! You don’t think people self promoting before they is ready causes problems in a class?- I think that segregating has the potential to stop the 'improving' dancers from learning how to cope with poorer dancers on the social dance floor.
- I think that a poorer dancer is more likely to demonstrate/accentuate where a move can go wrong and offer opportunities for the more experienced dancer to learn from it.
- I think that it increases the likelihood of injury because the improving dancer doesn't get the chance to see/stop a potentially dangerous movement done in a practice situation - it only presents it's self in social occasions.
- I think that it reduces the beginner dancer's exposure to the feel of what it should feel like with a better dancer, so slows their development.
- I think that it broadens any existing social divide between skilled and non-skilled dancers because they are not interacting in the class environment.
- I think that it makes each side less likely to interact socially with the other because they can be identified as 'of the same level': beginners more likely to dance with beginners and learn slowly/incorrect and card holders not dancing with them for fear of injury.
- I think that people 'moving up too quickly' either sink or swim - and the taxi-lifeguards can pull them to safety and get them ready to dive in again with a bit more experience.

so yes - seriously, I have no problem with it. :hug:

Yliander

15th-February-2006, 06:09 AM

"discussion" - it's only "punishment" when it feels like you're banging your head against a brick wall :whistle: and don’t it feels so good when you stop :whistle:

True - not everyone wants to compete. I don't.
But I dislike the fact that it is stating "you must have these skills before you are a "good" dancer." True, you won't be at a disadvantage by learning them, but who is to say that this is the direction you want to learn in? It is very close to trying to define what is and is not MJ. development programs aren't about someone being a “good” dancer - it’s about having achieved a known level of skills. People of the same skill level can be good/bad/indifferent dancers. If you that isn’t the direction you want to learn in – don’t do it – remember what I am talking about is not compulsory it is opt in

Why is a card the best way to work towards a predefined skill set? I think that dancers would get more out of (and perhaps gain a wider and more 'stable' set of basic skills) by attending the "basic" workshops. and why would having cards stop students doing basic workshops?

If you think that people should be able to do x,y and z before going on a workshop/into a class, then state it on the literature and have teachers who stick to the curriculum rather than dumbing it down for those who fail to meet the criteria asked for. because people will often over estimate their abilities – just look at how many threads there are on this forum about leads/follows lacking basic skills – and how to compensate for that – carded workshops mean you know you won’t have to compensate. As a teacher you want all your students to learn what you are teaching - is much easier to teach something when you know everyone in the class has the same min. background in a topic

People have a common goal: to dance better. Most folk have their own list of personal goals they want to make in order to achieve this. What the 'card' system does is give them a list of things that can be checked off. But it's not them that decides when to do each thing, if there are other things that they would rather work on, and it's not them that checks them off. The control of the dancer's own development is being taken out of the dancer's hands and placed in the hands of 'the collective'. nothing is “taken” from a dancer it’s just a different option

If you could simply produce a personal checklist of things that make a better dancer for people to mark themselves off against, in their own time, then I think it would be a brilliant idea. and a development program would prevent them from doing this how? there is a time frame on cards?!? why didn't someone tell me!

You can't have any defined skill set other than a general one because of the variety and all-encompassing nature of the dance.
You can't have universal rules because each dancer dances their interpretation of the music. Each rule would have to have multiple exceptions, and these have exceptions... I've seen more definitions of MJ based on what it's not rather than what it is - it is constantly evolving and drawing from every other dance form. but comp rules will state that competitors must dacne X% of modern jive - would it really be so bad for their to be a common definition of Modern Jive?

:confused: So you should develop skills that are of no use to the "fun and social" aspects of the dance? That is developing/improving it? I think that more connection and musicality skills should be developed that would help these aspects.
Presentation skills are only of use to those performing rather than dancing: yes they can be added into MJ, but I don't think that they are an advancement of the dance - more an off-shoot or "plugin". what skills would be of no use to the “fun & social” aspects of dancing? – the only one I can think of is aerials – just not a social dancing sort of thing – but then again not the sort of skills I would think of being included in a development system/program

Because you don't trust your dancers to police themselves? or the teachers to teach people of that level? or the organisers to make the level required clear?
Why not make these workshops a two tiered thing: "workshop II" only available to those who have been on "workshop I" and that is different how? And what if I already know what has been taught in Workshop I does that mean I have to pay to do it again so that I can do workshop II?

So someone without a card cannot progress in their dancing beyond a certain level unless they go for private tutorage. Why should I 'go for' a card when I know I can fulfil all the requirements? It would waste time/resources that I could be using to have fun dancing. Or going to a workshop where I might learn some more rather than showing what I already know. and where did I say that private tutorage was a requirement for getting a card? If you know you can fulfil the requirements and you would like to have that skill level formally recognised - then get assessed. How is that a waste of time/resources? It’s one dance, with a teacher

- I think that segregating has the potential to stop the 'improving' dancers from learning how to cope with poorer dancers on the social dance floor.
- I think that a poorer dancer is more likely to demonstrate/accentuate where a move can go wrong and offer opportunities for the more experienced dancer to learn from it.
- I think that it increases the likelihood of injury because the improving dancer doesn't get the chance to see/stop a potentially dangerous movement done in a practice situation - it only presents it's self in social occasions.
- I think that it reduces the beginner dancer's exposure to the feel of what it should feel like with a better dancer, so slows their development.
- I think that it broadens any existing social divide between skilled and non-skilled dancers because they are not interacting in the class environment.
- I think that it makes each side less likely to interact socially with the other because they can be identified as 'of the same level': beginners more likely to dance with beginners and learn slowly/incorrect and card holders not dancing with them for fear of injury.
- I think that people 'moving up too quickly' either sink or swim - and the taxi-lifeguards can pull them to safety and get them ready to dive in again with a bit more experience.

so yes - seriously, I have no problem with it. :hug: be that as it may – look around this forum and you will find any number of threads that discuss what to do about someone who isn’t up to the class level and as a result is annoying/frustrating/dangerous or all three to others in the class * note I am talking about intermediate and above classes

David Bailey

15th-February-2006, 09:30 AM

Over all, most people like change - simply because it's new, fresh and exciting.
Sorry, but no - culturally, the majority of people fear change; it unsettles them, makes them nervous, and they do their best to avoid it. I think the culture in the UK has become a little more change-tolerant over the past 10-15 years, but that's still a long way to go.

This means that the way a change is implemented is at least as important (in terms of its likely success) as the change itself. Hence the whole discipline of change management, which is based around implementing changes successfully.

People have a common goal: to dance better.
Some do - some (most?) don't - they just want to have a good time, dance with their friends, meet people, and so on.

Separation /segregation. Those with the card in this line: those without on that. Blacks sit on those seats: Whites on those. You have said yourself that the lack of card is not an indication of lack of ability, but are separating as if it is.
In any teaching environment, you have to segregate by experience / ability; to take an extreme example, how could you teach maths to a class with students ranging from primary-schoolers to maths post-graduates?

And of course, Ceroc in the UK already does segregate - beginners' classes, intermediate classes, and occasional advanced classes. The main benefit of an assessment system is that it would make such distinctions more transparent, and impose more minimum standards on dancers at each stage. So you'd hopefully get less yankers in intermediate classes, for example.

Re: MJ being the "baby" of dance.

My personal opinion is that Ceroc the organisation is great for evangelising partner dancing, but has inhibited the natural development and growth of the dance itself by focussing resources on beginners - this makes great business sense, of course, but it means that the development and advancement is done without much support and encouragement from Ceroc HQ.

After 25 years of MJ, you'd expect it to be more advanced than it is - compare that with salsa, which is of roughly a similar age, but which has evolved and developed much further and faster as a dance in that time. There is little or no support from the average franchisee to the notion of developing MJ dance technique - the beginners are where the money's at.

ducasi

15th-February-2006, 10:21 AM

After 25 years of MJ, you'd expect it to be more advanced than it is ... How does one measure how advanced a dance is or how far it has advanced?

David Bailey

15th-February-2006, 10:42 AM

How does one measure how advanced a dance is or how far it has advanced?
Well, whether it has a card system, for a start... :innocent:

(Sorry, I couldn't resist :blush: )

El Salsero Gringo

15th-February-2006, 08:59 PM

My personal opinion is that Ceroc the organisation is great for evangelising partner dancing, but has inhibited the natural development and growth of the dance itself by focussing resources on beginners - this makes great business sense, of course, but it means that the development and advancement is done without much support and encouragement from Ceroc HQ.Can you elaborate on how you think a focus on beginners inhibits anyone (else) from doing what you think Ceroc isn't doing? If anything, a wide base of beginners hungry for more should be an ideal launching platform for someone to start an avowedly elitist, card-issuing, skills-oriented franchise-based MJ organisation, which can provide the support and encouragement of which you speak. The trouble is, anything even remotely approaching that has so far failed in the marketplace. (Although I have high expectations should ChrisA ever get together with an interested venture capitalist.)

And Salsa is a total mishmash of prima-donna teachers and incompatible styles, and nearly impossible for new dancers to break into, both culturally and technically. If anything, it's Salsa that's inhibited its own growth by focusing on invitation-only advanced classes, impossibly fast music and holier-than-thou attitudes.

Andreas

15th-February-2006, 09:03 PM

David Franklin

15th-February-2006, 09:07 PM

How does one measure how advanced a dance is or how far it has advanced?String and/or tape measure...

Andybroom

15th-February-2006, 10:03 PM

And Salsa is a total mishmash of prima-donna teachers and incompatible styles, and nearly impossible for new dancers to break into, both culturally and technically. If anything, it's Salsa that's inhibited its own growth by focusing on invitation-only advanced classes, impossibly fast music and holier-than-thou attitudes.

That's not really fair.

Salsa has some prima donna teachers, yes, but they are in the minority. And (no names, no pack drill and no -one I know of who posts here) I can think of some modern jive teachers I'd level the same description at. The pot is calling the kettle black a little, I feel.

There are several styles of salsa, also yes. But they are not incompatible with each other. True this may make it a little more difficult for the absolute beginner to choose which classes to go to and which not, but it shouldn't take them long to find classes. And huge numbers of people have done just that over the past few years.

Most beginners salsa classes are run in a virtually identical manner to MJ classes and starting Salsa as a beginner is no more difficult in a "cultural" sense than MJ. As a salsa dancer progresses he/she has decisions as to which paths they want to tread which they wouldn't face in MJ necessarily, true, but that's because Salsa has developed (well, to be historically accurate, was already developed) much further than MJ, at least for most MJ dancers.

Salsa does not "focus" in any way on invitation only advanced classes. Yes there are a few (very few) classes like that but they only exist because there is a demand from the more advanced Salsa dancers for them which some teachers have chosen to meet. However they will be making only tiny amounts of money out of (if anything) and they do them to progress the dance, essentially.

Salsa music is fast. There isn't much more you can say than that. The dance is designed to be done to fast music. It doesn't work (particularly well) to anything else.

"Holier than thou attitudes" - well again it happens. It also happens in MJ. Probably percentage wise about the same. It's human nature, like it or not. Pot, kettle, black, again.

I don't know how you can say Salsa has inhibited it's growth - it has been huge nationally over the past few years. I was taken to task the other day by someone in Dundee (as I recall) which seems to have escaped the Salsa craze so, maybe , the same applies to where-ever you are. But in may areas there have been hundreds of people doing Salsa regularly.

Andy

TheTramp

15th-February-2006, 10:10 PM

someone in Dundee

That'd be l'il ole me. :innocent:

Andybroom

15th-February-2006, 10:35 PM

That'd be l'il ole me. :innocent:

:cheers:

Andy

El Salsero Gringo

15th-February-2006, 10:43 PM

That's not really fair.

Salsa has some prima donna teachers, yes, but they are in the minority. And (no names, no pack drill and no -one I know of who posts here) I can think of some modern jive teachers I'd level the same description at. The pot is calling the kettle black a little, I feel.Well, individual experiences vary, clearly. But in terms of teacher's attitudes towards their students: at least my girlfriend has never been propositioned by a teacher of MJ while standing next to me.
There are several styles of salsa, also yes. But they are not incompatible with each other. I found a Cuban Salsa class impossible to follow - even at beginner's level, after a few months of NY/cross-body style. Literally impossible.
Most beginners salsa classes are run in a virtually identical manner to MJ classesAgain, individual experiences vary, but, of the six or so different Salsa classes - all organised by different people - that I've been to in London: none of them had a teacher on a stage so that you could see, none of them had any standardised vocabulary for describing a move, none of them equipped their teachers with head-mics so you could hear (desperately needed in many cases since they talk to their shoes) and not a single one had a teacher with a skilled demonstrator as a partner so that both people who you were supposed to learn from knew what they were doing. All of the teachers were very good dancers, and some of them were good teachers too. But the same format as Ceroc? I don't think so. (And I've never seen anything like a Taxi Dancer, or a beginner's review class at Salsa.)
and starting Salsa as a beginner is no more difficult in a "cultural" sense than MJ. Again, that's not my experience. I've tried, as a beginner, at six different classes. The culture, at every single one of them, was biased against beginners. Unlike Ceroc.
Salsa does not "focus" in any way on invitation only advanced classes. Yes there are a few (very few) classes like that but they only exist because there is a demand from the more advanced Salsa dancers for them which some teachers have chosen to meet. However they will be making only tiny amounts of money out of (if anything) and they do them to progress the dance, essentially.Nothing wrong with wanting to earn a living. But the invitation-only ethos rubs off on everyone else in the room. Inevitably.
Salsa music is fast. There isn't much more you can say than that. The dance is designed to be done to fast music. It doesn't work (particularly well) to anything else.Actually, I don't believe you. There's a lot of medium paced salsa music - I've got discs full.
"Holier than thou attitudes" - well again it happens. It also happens in MJ. Probably percentage wise about the same. It's human nature, like it or not. Pot, kettle, black, again.If by that you mean I'm guilty of those same sins - no, I don't think so. I don't laugh at beginners who can't find the beat - like has happened to me at Salsa. I don't sneer at someone who wants to repeat what they learnt in the beginner's class - like I've been sneered at at Salsa. Wherever I go to do MJ, I encourage new dancers. I've never found that at a Salsa night. As soon as the class ends and the lights go down, everyone's off to queue to dance with the experts.
I don't know how you can say Salsa has inhibited it's growth - it has been huge nationally over the past few years.Because the retention rate for new dancers is miniscule. If the retention rate was as high as for MJ, almost everybody in the country aged between 20 and 40 would be a salsero by now.

ads

15th-February-2006, 11:10 PM

"discussion" - it's only "punishment" when it feels like you're banging your head against a brick wall :whistle:

This almost sounds like you are comparing yourself to a brick wall when it comes to discussion Gadget!...heaven forbid!!:whistle:

bigdjiver

16th-February-2006, 12:38 AM

Yliander

16th-February-2006, 01:11 AM

Dancesport and ballroom jive both try to be recognised as "proper" dances. I do not see either of those with the same dynamic as MJ. Nobody that I have seen on this forum that likes the idea of badges of merit has suggested migrating to those dance forms. I believe that once we have levels of merit then teachers will start to concentrate on getting people past that level of merit. Teachers abilities will start to be measured by their success rates at getting people past that level. Some teachers will start selling their services by making non-achievers feel that they are somehow inadequate. This is not just theory. Ballroom dancing did not start with all of the style and merit paraphenalia attaches to it. it doesn’t have to be that way -

the development programs that are in place in Australia have none of these connotations – in fact in my experience the cards used in Australia give students confidence in their ability and they don’t worry that they shouldn’t be in “this class yet”.

The other thing to remember is that the card system currently in use – is at no cost to the student when they feel the need/desire to gain a card they just ask an appropriate teacher to assess them - and then they either get their card or constructive feed back on the elements that require a little focus before being assessed again.

To achieve merit levels in Ballroom you must participate in a series of group or private lessons and have a public examination all of which the student has to pay for - which puts a much different spin on things

I want MJ first and foremost to be about having fun. Why is it that those that don’t want to give people the option of development programs always say “but that won’t make it fun”? don’t you get more fun out of something the more skill you have?

bigdjiver

16th-February-2006, 02:15 AM

... Why is it that those that don’t want to give people the option of development programs always say “but that won’t make it fun”? don’t you get more fun out of something the more skill you have?I think that most people enjoy doing something as well as they can fpr personal satisfaction, and better than others on a vanity level. I am all in favour of excellence. It is chasing badges of merit that worries me, the attempts to set in concrete form what is "good" dance and what is "bad".

"In extremis" I watched a special needs school's performance of "Grease" and came away with my heart singing. I doubt whether anyone tried to eveluate how "good" the dancing was. I would apply the same measurement system to that performance as I would to a MJ night. How big and how many are the smiles? I can also recognise grace and beauty and art in a performance, and what badges the dancers are entitled to has no bearing on my appreciation. I have seen medal winners doing ballroom jive, and envy them their skill, but the performance has left me cold.

Gadget

16th-February-2006, 02:43 AM

and don’t it feels so good when you stop :whistle:Wouldn't know :innocent:

development programs aren't about someone being a “good” dancer - it’s about having achieved a known level of skills. People of the same skill level can be good/bad/indifferent dancers.Eh? :confused: Isn't the skill level what dictates being a good/bad/indifferent dancer?

and why would having cards stop students doing basic workshops?It doesn't - it just stops them from doing anything but a basic workshop.

because people will often over estimate their abilities – just look at how many threads there are on this forum about leads/follows lacking basic skills – and how to compensate for that...
Look at the number of threads on beginner moves. Look at the number of threads on shoes/clothes. What does that indicate? Especially since the folk on here are already addicted and/or passionate about it - a very small, but highly vocal minority. Yes, some people will over-estimate themselves. And some will underestimate themselves. But most will make the decision to move onto the next level of class the advice of their peers. (/taxis)

– carded workshops mean you know you won’t have to compensate. As a teacher you want all your students to learn what you are teaching - is much easier to teach something when you know everyone in the class has the same min. background in a topicI am struggling to come up with an example of something that would be taught requiring a basic minimum level from your students... Drops and Ariels are the only things I can think on. Other than that, what is there??

but comp rules will state that competitors must dance X% of modern jive - would it really be so bad for their to be a common definition of Modern Jive?At this point, MJ splits into "competition MJ" and "social MJ" Both being different dance forms with different criteria and focus. Each will develop differently and away from each other.
Judging is purely subjective. Even with written rules, it is up to the judges interpretation of those rules.

what skills would be of no use to the “fun & social” aspects of dancing?"Of no use" is a bit strong - it's the amount of focus on certain elements of the dance that changes; presentation, orientation, balancing moves/complexity, impact moves, signals, syncopation,... are all heightened in the competitive arena, while subtle things like minimised lead/follow, adapting moves, floorcraft, body leads, partner feedback/sabotage,... are heightened in social dancing.

and that is different how? And what if I already know what has been taught in Workshop I does that mean I have to pay to do it again so that I can do workshop II? Yes, you would - how do you know what was taught in the first one without attending it? How do you know that your knowledge is sufficient to do the second? It is conceivable that the first one laid the groundwork and imparted information that is vital for the second one to be build on.
With the 'card' system, you broadcast to everyone "X was taught in the first one". With linked workshops, only the attendees have access to exactly what was taught.

and where did I say that private tutorage was a requirement for getting a card?? did I say that? The intent was that the time and resources spent on gaining a card could be spent in a more productive way.

If you know you can fulfil the requirements and you would like to have that skill level formally recognised - then get assessed. How is that a waste of time/resources? It’s one dance, with a teacher With a specific teacher at a specific venue and at a cost. {I presume a cost?}. There is a resource in time and finances taken up in travel. OK if it's available in your local venue (are all teachers "qualified" to distribute these? How can consistency be ensured?)
And you have not just lost one dance: you have lost the previous & next dance(s) to paperwork and discussion.

be that as it may – look around this forum and you will find any number of threads that discuss what to do about someone who isn’t up to the class level and as a result is annoying/frustrating/dangerous or all three to others in the class * note I am talking about intermediate and above classesPersonally, I see it as more of a problem in the 'intermediate and above' dancers that they cannot cope with dancers of a lesser ability. As ChrisA would say "I can cope, but why should I have to in a class that is too advanced for them?" {:wink:} Because that's MJ. All inclusive. One person in 20 (*) that moves up too soon for one class does not justify the need to erect a check point with armed patrols and snarling beasts.
(*number plucked from thin air)
<hr>

Some do - some (most?) don't {want to improve} - they just want to have a good time, dance with their friends, meet people, and so on.Isn't that an argument that cards are unnecessary then; what's the point if only a select few will ever even apply for them?

And of course, Ceroc in the UK already does segregate - beginners' classes, intermediate classes, and occasional advanced classes. The main benefit of an assessment system is that it would make such distinctions more transparent, and impose more minimum standards on dancers at each stage. So you'd hopefully get less yankers in intermediate classes, for example.From my understanding, the teaching in classes involving "blue cards" is not segregated, only the pupils are. This is a practice I am against with all my heart - I cannot see it as a positive thing in any light. :mad:

How an the UK system be more transparent than calling a class "beginners" and "intermediates"? The progression from one to the other is a purely personal one, based on advice from taxis, other dancers and how they feel they are doing on the beginner's class. If they struggle, they can always drop down again or seek out a teacher.

A minimum standard? Since most complaints seem to be about regular/perpetual intermediates, you would be imposing this on them? If there are lots of "yankers" coming into the class, then something is wrong with your taxis/teachers rather than the beginners that this system is targeting.

Gary

16th-February-2006, 03:13 AM

Because you don't trust your dancers to police themselves?
Well I wouldn't. Some folks are terrible at self-evaluating their dancing level. What's worse is that people who are terrible at self-evaluation often don't know it, so they won't bother with evaluation which is optional.

or the teachers to teach people of that level?

It is really hard for a teacher to "block out" people who are in the class, shouldn't be, and are struggling.

or the organisers to make the level required clear?

This bit usually isn't too hard.

Gary

16th-February-2006, 03:15 AM

... I believe that once we have levels of merit then teachers will start to concentrate on getting people past that level of merit. Teachers abilities will start to be measured by their success rates at getting people past that level. Some teachers will start selling their services by making non-achievers feel that they are somehow inadequate. This is not just theory. Ballroom dancing did not start with all of the style and merit paraphenalia attaches to it.
Well we've had a card system in place at CMJ for quite a while, without these effects.

I want MJ first and foremost to be about having fun.
Me too.

adss

16th-February-2006, 07:53 AM

And I thought we had in numerous threads established that dancing is 'rarely' engaged in competitively. If I remember correctly then this was the fundamental argument that people brought up to classify OZ style and pretty much every single OZ dancer/representative on this forum contested it by stating that only a small number of people actually do it competitively. So 'often' is hardly applicable.

You mean 3% is NOT rare? What is? For OZ or the UK only it'd be 1.5% of all days of a year. This has to be rare. It certainly isn't often.

Yeah, gotta love them semantics :hug:

But if you consider that in Australia (at a rough guess) there were around 1000sh (underestimated indicative number worked out in 2004) MJ dancers in a class-week and in that year there were 300sh competitors (indicative total number of competitors that I observed at all the comps - but Perth - taking into account that approximately 40% of competitors do travel to multiple comps) it works out that approximately we had 290sh competitors in Australia - therefore 29%. We all know that statistics can always be argued, but even if we cut the number by half, 14.5% is not something that I think I would comparatively refer to as a small number .

Now, see what you :worthy: and Yliander :hug: caused by getting me excited about symentics :D

PS. The boss, as he looked down on my notebook on his way home, just praised me for staying behind and working out the stats that he requested earlier. Ahhh life can be soooooo sweet :D

adss

16th-February-2006, 07:57 AM

You mean 3% is NOT rare? What is? For OZ or the UK only it'd be 1.5% of all days of a year. This has to be rare. It certainly isn't often.

So, if you look at Winter Olympics which occur every four years in addition to an annual World Winter games, based on the number of people who ski/snowboard/skate/skeleton/etc. how does that compare to MJ?:grin:

Gotta love them semantics ;)

Andreas

16th-February-2006, 08:36 AM

So, if you look at Winter Olympics which occur every four years in addition to an annual World Winter games, based on the number of people who ski/snowboard/skate/skeleton/etc. how does that compare to MJ?:grin:
They are only ONE competition on the list. If there was anyone sport that would EXCLUSIVE to olympic games, yeah, shouldn't be called sport. But to my knowledge there isn't any. :na: The listed sports only do not receive a lot of coverage outside the regions where they are actually popular.

Gotta love them semantics ;)
Oh yeah, baby. :rofl:

Andreas

16th-February-2006, 08:45 AM

But if you consider that in Australia (at a rough guess) there were around 1000sh (underestimated indicative number worked out in 2004) MJ dancers in a class-week and in that year there were 300sh competitors (indicative total number of competitors that I observed at all the comps - but Perth - taking into account that approximately 40% of competitors do travel to multiple comps) it works out that approximately we had 290sh competitors in Australia - therefore 29%. We all know that statistics can always be argued, but even if we cut the number by half, 14.5% is not something that I think I would comparatively refer to as a small number .

Now, see what you :worthy: and Yliander :hug: caused by getting me excited about symentics :D
Yeah, I know that every statistic is only as good as you manage to forge it. :D But in actual fact I am quite glad about those numbers. It will help the discussion when we get back to 'Australians do MJ to compete rather than as a social means' and 'UK dancers dance socially rather than at comps'. :na:
My interpretation of those numbers, if I decide to adopt them as they are, would be that almost 30% of those who go to classes regularly will also compete. But as I believe there is a significantly higher contingent of MJ dancers in OZ than only 1000 you will eventually come back to a much smaller percentage of those doing competitions.
Having said that, are you certain you only draw 1000 people in a week? That sounds more like what I would gauge Sydney alone to get, considering the two competing Ceroc companies. I am sure this is just a typo and you meant 10.000 per week, which brings us to 2.9%, oops, I knew it ... :rofl:

PS. The boss, as he looked down on my notebook on his way home, just praised me for staying behind and working out the stats that he requested earlier. Ahhh life can be soooooo sweet :D
:rofl:

David Bailey

16th-February-2006, 09:43 AM

Can you elaborate on how you think a focus on beginners inhibits anyone (else) from doing what you think Ceroc isn't doing?
Blimey, he's gone over to the Dark Side...

The answer is that only Ceroc the organisation has the ability to influence MJ dance standards to a large degree - any individual approaches by other independent MJ operators will be (by definition) piecemeal and inconsistent.

And Ceroc the organisation isn't AFAIK willing to mess with what it sees now as a winning formula (i.e. focussing pretty much all efforts at getting beginners through the door),

If anything, a wide base of beginners hungry for more should be an ideal launching platform for someone to start an avowedly elitist, card-issuing, skills-oriented franchise-based MJ organisation
What, like Ceroc and MJ in Australia? :whistle:

And Salsa is a total mishmash of prima-donna teachers
Yes. :tears:

and incompatible styles, and nearly impossible for new dancers to break into, both culturally and technically.
:confused: No, and no - it's both possible to mix-and-match most styles in a single dance, and salsa classes are still very popular.

If anything, it's Salsa that's inhibited its own growth by focusing on invitation-only advanced classes, impossibly fast music and holier-than-thou attitudes.
Quite possibly, if by "growth" you mean "numbers of people". But not if you mean "development of dance" - IMO salsa dance styles have developed more than MJ dance styles over the past 10 years.

But in terms of teacher's attitudes towards their students: at least my girlfriend has never been propositioned by a teacher of MJ while standing next to me.
I totally agree that male salsa teachers can be a sleazy bunch. Hell, male salsa dancers can be a sleazy bunch. But I know quite a few prominent male MJ teachers who use their teaching status as "opportunities", so it's not exactly unique.

I found a Cuban Salsa class impossible to follow - even at beginner's level, after a few months of NY/cross-body style. Literally impossible.
There's a workshop on Sunday I could maybe interest you in? :whistle: :innocent:

I'm not quite sure how we got into a salsa vs. MJ discussion again, but I absolutely agree that the "big standard organisation" model of Ceroc is a great business model, and ensures much higher minimum standards of teaching than in salsa, and a much higher average retention rate.

If the retention rate was as high as for MJ, almost everybody in the country aged between 20 and 40 would be a salsero by now.
Yes... but, having said that, it makes you wonder, if salsa is doing so badly in those areas (and it is), why is it still so successful? - in other words, what comparable big advantages does salsa have that enables it to compete with Ceroc? And I'd contend that one of those advantages is a more highly-developed set of dance styles.

David Bailey

16th-February-2006, 10:15 AM

I am struggling to come up with an example of something that would be taught requiring a basic minimum level from your students...
One obvious example of such a move is a First move back ocho; it requires a proper lead, a proper follow, a proper frame, and attention to footwork.

This move was taught at a regular Ceroc class last summer (twice), and most of the attendees didn't get it - they loved it, but they couldn't get it. I didn't really get it either - although it did inspire my to think about Argentine Tango.

Isn't that an argument that cards are unnecessary then; what's the point if only a select few will ever even apply for them?
An assessment system is aspirational - it gives dancers something to aim for. The intention is that a minimum standard would help raise the level of both dancers and the level of classes

From my understanding, the teaching in classes involving "blue cards" is not segregated, only the pupils are. This is a practice I am against with all my heart - I cannot see it as a positive thing in any light. :mad:
Mmmm, I've got some misgivings about the implementation details myself, I'd also prefer segregated classes to segregated lines. But realistically, at the moment the only way to see how successful this is, is to go to Australia and see a class working within such a system.

How an the UK system be more transparent than calling a class "beginners" and "intermediates"?
Because it's a dumb distinction - it's done for business reasons, to allow Ceroc to focus on beginners and to lump "everyone else" into the "intermediates" group - they know most intermediates will be hooked, and so (as an organisation - honourable exceptions exist) don't really care about the quality of teaching they provide at that level.

To me, there are at least 4 levels of dancer that should be catered for with specific classes:
- Beginner
- Improver
- Intermediate
- Advanced

And at the moment, the latter 3 categories are all being taught in one class.

El Salsero Gringo

16th-February-2006, 11:56 AM

The answer is that only Ceroc the organisation has the ability to influence MJ dance standards to a large degree - any individual approaches by other independent MJ operators will be (by definition) piecemeal and inconsistent.But any efforts in that direction by Salsa operators must also be piecemeal and inconsistent - yet that hasn't stopped them.
And Ceroc the organisation isn't AFAIK willing to mess with what it sees now as a winning formula (i.e. focussing pretty much all efforts at getting beginners through the door)But they do - they're trying all sorts of new workshops, advanced classes and so on. And now a weekender. I'm also told that new teaching ideas are being tried, with variable success. I don't think there's a lack of willingness to experiment, but with mouths to feed, breaking from the tried and tested has to be done on results, not on whim.
:confused: No, and no - it's both possible to mix-and-match most styles in a single danceI know that's your experience David - and it may because no doubt you're a very versatile and experienced Salsa lead - but it doesn't match mine, as a beginner. One day I'd like you to come with me to Salsa on Sunday and see how compatible your style is with the dancers there.
Quite possibly, if by "growth" you mean "numbers of people". But not if you mean "development of dance" - IMO salsa dance styles have developed more than MJ dance styles over the past 10 years.I think there's a been a lot of development in MJ style too, but I don't have the experience of Salsa to compare.
Yes... but, having said that, it makes you wonder, if salsa is doing so badly in those areas (and it is), why is it still so successful? - in other words, what comparable big advantages does salsa have that enables it to compete with Ceroc? And I'd contend that one of those advantages is a more highly-developed set of dance styles.I think that a bigger advantage is a huge pool of foreign talent, already experienced in Salsa, generally good looking, and without British reserve. Speaking off-the-cuff, I'd say the way forwards for MJ is to import men into it from abroad. The retention rate for new Salsa dancers is lower, but the incentives to give it a go in the first place are higher.

adss

16th-February-2006, 10:40 PM

Having said that, are you certain you only draw 1000 people in a week? That sounds more like what I would gauge Sydney alone to get, considering the two competing Ceroc companies. I am sure this is just a typo and you meant 10.000 per week, which brings us to 2.9%, oops, I knew it ... :rofl:

:rofl:

It could well be. It was only worked out over a week period where I found myself talking to teachers/dance company owners who reportedly stated how many venues they had and what was the norm of attendance per week (taking into account those who went to multiple venues). I find that a considerable number of dancers go twice a week to classes. Anyway, it is quite possible for the number to be much higher, especially as in melbourne the numbers have certainly increased over the years. Anyway, I guess that it'd be interesting to analyse the actuakl figures, but somehow I don't think it be possible to get a national agreeance to share data.
:cheers:

Andreas

17th-February-2006, 12:26 AM

but somehow I don't think it be possible to get a national agreeance to share data.
:cheers:
I guess you are dead right there. Mind you, you'd only have to convince the two Ceroc franchise owners that subcontract the other franchises and the 'independents' (le bop etc.). Can't be too many. Use your charm. :D

Jeremy

17th-February-2006, 01:12 AM

But realistically, at the moment the only way to see how successful this is, is to go to Australia and see a class working within such a system.

Well over you come then...

Mosman 1st Monday of the Month
Willoughby every Thursday of the Month except the 1st

Perhaps the forumites could all chip in a pound or so for the airfare for your investigation.

:cheers:

TheTramp

17th-February-2006, 02:27 AM

Perhaps the forumites could all chip in a pound or so for the airfare for your investigation.

If it's a one way ticket, I'm prepared to put in a fiver!! :flower:

El Salsero Gringo

17th-February-2006, 12:13 PM

If it's a one way ticket, I'm prepared to put in a fiver!! :flower:Maybe the Forum should send a whole deputation?

TheTramp

17th-February-2006, 12:16 PM

Maybe the Forum should send a whole deputation?
Well, I've already got my ticket, but I'm still prepared to take donations :rolleyes:

El Salsero Gringo

17th-February-2006, 12:24 PM

Well, I've already got my ticket, but I'm still prepared to take donations :rolleyes:But are you prepared to take DavidJames?

Not that it would help - I gather the Internet has recently reached Australia. :whistle:

LMC

17th-February-2006, 12:34 PM

DavidJames wouldn't go, Australia is over half an hour's travelling from Finchley.

Andreas

17th-February-2006, 01:45 PM

I'd offer my services but in Melbourne nobody checked a card so I presume the system does not exist there. I have only been asked if I was allowed to join the Intermediate or something along those lines. So while they appeared to be concerned, which is good, it did not appear to be a strict regime. :respect:
Mind you, they don't let overseas teachers in for free, that sucks :na:

Yliander

17th-February-2006, 02:24 PM

TheTramp

17th-February-2006, 05:14 PM

don't take it personally they don't let local teachers in for free either :sick:

I got in for free. All I had to do was teach a class :na:

Andreas

17th-February-2006, 07:02 PM

don't take it personally they don't let local teachers in for free either
Really? Well, in NZ I could travel the country and got in everywhere for free. Even in the UK I got in for free a couple of times. Say no more ... :D

I got in for free. All I had to do was teach a class :na:
Alright, I'll blame it on my laziness then and the fact that I'd rather remain unknown :whistle: :respect:

LilyB

17th-February-2006, 11:42 PM

... Mind you, they don't let overseas teachers in for free, that sucks :na:

Yes they do. And very welcoming they are too - everywhere we've been:flower: .

Andy McGregor

18th-February-2006, 12:19 PM

Yes they do. And very welcoming they are too - everywhere we've been:flower: .That was due to the APB that went out "if a petite and very attractive* woman and a large beer drinking guy** turn up, let them in for free and give them plenty of room" :what:

*and very scary :eek:

** who never moves his feet :wink:

DavidB

18th-February-2006, 12:59 PM

a large beer drinking guyIs that a large guy who drinks beer, or a guy who drinks large beers?

I realise there is no difference now, but there was when I started.

DavidB

adss

20th-February-2006, 04:44 AM

I guess you are dead right there. Mind you, you'd only have to convince the two Ceroc franchise owners that subcontract the other franchises and the 'independents' (le bop etc.). Can't be too many. Use your charm.

Flattery will get you anywhere :rofl: But let's face it, I have as much chance as getting the dog to finally catch its tail :D

Andreas

20th-February-2006, 02:42 PM

Flattery will get you anywhere :rofl:
Yeah, pretty subtle, ey? :rofl:

But let's face it, I have as much chance as getting the dog to finally catch its tail :D
Now where is that optimism of yours again? You are just too lazy and looking for an excuse. :rofl: :respect:

adss

23rd-February-2006, 05:02 AM

Yeah, pretty subtle, ey? :rofl:

Now where is that optimism of yours again? You are just too lazy and looking for an excuse. :rofl: :respect:

yeaah, you are quite right!!! I cold always teach the dog to try and chase it in the other direction .... or catch its tail for him/her! :rofl:

Andreas

23rd-February-2006, 08:41 AM

yeaah, you are quite right!!! I cold always teach the dog to try and chase it in the other direction .... or catch its tail for him/her! :rofl:
See, you haven't run out of ideas just yet. If the dog turns fast enough inertia my bring the tail just close enough for it to catch it but you could always offer a helping hand :respect:

SimonSays

2nd-March-2006, 10:53 PM

Well then
Just back from a whirlwind tour of the home colonies, and some home cooked meals from mum in Sydney.
Taught 3 night for 3 MJ Companies in Aussie.

Was fun and a great learning experience for me also - very proud of the Aussies for continually pushing the limits. Its a humbling experience (in any country) to be privileged to teach talented people who can teach me at least as much as I teach them!

Advanced dancers? Hard to define I agree, but these are the people I continually learn from. Sometimes its a simple thing like making a basic move loook smoooooother. Or sometimes its a tricky thing, Like learning how to do a rotating dip from the likes of Adam Niland (Sydney) who can shift his partner several multiples of 180 degrees further than my best efforts, and she doesnt even feel like she has just been through several turns of the wringer (the guy is amazing - he lewt me film him for 25 minutes of non stop moves, new moves, varioations and combos!! Pure gold.).

Card System? Well, it still rocks!
I got to teach everything I ever dreamed of, at an "advanced" level, without fear of people complaining - on these nights, if a customer walks through the door, they KNOW its going to be as tough as I can make it. Dont like it? Go to a regular venue, where you can enjoy the intermediate classes, at a suitable pace. IA classes are for the discerning and accomplished customer who wants MORE. (They are not necessarily for the fast track beginner though... its not fair on the long timers who have earned their stripes with visible results... but thats another complex discussion on its own)

Just run the classes at the published level, and leave it to the customers to choose for themselves - and they do!

Bring on the Ceroc Storm weekend

See you all there

I am teaching a couple of tricks

Cheers
Simon

p.s forumites, get your butts to London on a snight and visit us at ISH