Learning Tango

[Lynn]

It would be great to see an "AT in NI" thread - with its own character. Such a thread wouldn't "compete" with this one not try to emulate it. Rather than hi-jack the north London thread any more, or start a 'NI' localised thread, I thought I would start a thread for anyone learning Argentine Tango to share their experiences.

I have now signed up for the AT class - haven't done any classes yet - they start next week. :clap:

[jivecat]

Good idea for a thread. I'm hoping to start Tango classes on Sat lunchtimes at Leicester University soon, and have even found someone to practise with.

[Northants Girly]

Good idea for a thread. I'm hoping to start Tango classes on Sat lunchtimes at Leicester University soon, and have even found someone to practise with.Can you post any more details about that please? :)

[JonD]

I've got a feeling this is going to be a great thread - well, I'm going to enjoy it anyway!

I've been dancing AT since April 2002 but haven't attended classes or practiced as much as I'd like in that time. In the first couple of years there were some periods of two or three months where I didnt' dance AT at all despite having been really bitten by the bug. I think that was partly due to the frustration factor - I was used to being reasonably competent at MJ and found being unable to express myself on the dance floor really difficult. The fact that we were taught the "grammar" (technique, feeling, connection etc.) of AT without much, if any, "vocabulary" (moves, figures) made it very different to learning MJ. I used to bemoan my lack of "shapes" and wish someone would teach me flashy moves! Now I realise that AT is pure lead/follow - any part of any step can change at almost any moment. That, combined with the intensity of the connection with your partner, is what makes AT so special to me.

Now that I'm more confident and more competent I'm glad that we spent so much of the early lessons working on grammar. I was dancing in the South of France in August and there were people there who'd been dancing for more than 8 years who really did not have any "quality" in their movement: they had been taught lots of figures but with no underpinning of basic skills. To be frank, they didn't look that good on the floor and were pretty terrible to dance with. It's worth being patient and working on the basics. I practice my balance and pivots in supermarket queues; I think about where the weight is falling in my foot and being grounded as I walk down the street; I do "adornos" at the photocopier. I need to practice my backward ochos but I think doing that in public would attract too many strange looks.

I'm now a total AT junkie - it's become my passion. I love MJ and still work hard to try and improve my MJ dancing but if I had to choose only one dance it would be AT. Thankfully I don't have to make that choice!

Oh, and everyone nag John who runs Southport. I emailed him and it looks like we might have the "4th room" for a milonga one night at Southport in June. We need to remind him that there is significant demand. Anyone want to DJ?

[Lynn]

Good idea for a thread. I'm hoping to start Tango classes on Sat lunchtimes at Leicester University soon, and have even found someone to practise with.I won't have a regular partner, but I know two MJ guys going so hopefully will get the chance to practice* a bit with them.

The class I am going to is listed as 8-10pm, so hopefully that will include some practice time.


(Or practise, sorry, I never know which I should use. :blush: )

[Lynn]

I've got a feeling this is going to be a great thread - well, I'm going to enjoy it anyway! It will be if you keep posting on it! Your contributions on the other AT threads have been very interesting! :flower:

Oh, and everyone nag John who runs Southport. I emailed him and it looks like we might have the "4th room" for a milonga one night at Southport in June. That was your idea then was it? :whistle:

[philsmove]

I won't have a regular partner

If Leicester is like Bristol you don’t need to bring a partner

But as its bit like surf city (two girls for every guy) bringing your own partner can help. It’s certainly nice to have some friends to practice with afterwards

Just beware AT can be even more addictive than MJ :flower:

[Lynn]

If Leicester is like Bristol you don’t need to bring a partner. You don't have to here either (not sure if Jivecat has to, or has just found someone else interested to practice with), though I have ensured I will have a few guys to practice with! I'm curious to see the ratios - salsa here is very unbalanced, but any AT classes I have been to have been usually only 1 or 2 ladies over (same with MJ so far)

But as its bit like surf city (two girls for every guy) I'm gonna be singing that all day now! :tears:

[JonD]

That was your idea then was it?
Well, now that you mention it .......... Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound as if it was my inspiration!


I won't have a regular partner, but I know two MJ guys going so hopefully will get the chance to practice* a bit with them.
It's really useful if you get a regular partner - much more so than for MJ I think. Julie and I started AT at the same time but didn't know it. I'd seen her at MJ and danced with her but it wasn't until I went to the "ultimate contradiction in terms dinner" (an Argentinean vegetarian meal - it could only happen in Totnes) and saw her there that I realised that she was also learning AT. We danced to "Oblivion" (wonderful slow Tango by Astor Piazzolla) that night and the rest, as they say, is history.

[David Bailey]

I did a tango last night with a lovely lady at Finchley (thanks for a great set Robin, by the way). It was scary, she's clearly massively better than me at AT, she was doing all the kicks, the forward ochos-into-weird backward movements, everything.

At the moment, I'm still mainly moving back and forward :blush:

[philsmove]

......I, she was doing all the kicks, .........
At the moment, I'm still mainly moving back and forward :blush:

I’m very much a beginner,:blush: but from what a can make out, from my teacher,:worthy:
If you are giving your partner time to do “all the Kicks” you are doing something right; may be your MJ experience is kicking in

[The Passion Harem]

I am just about to head off for a few hours of freestyle in Edinburgh tonight. Last year I was hooked through our Edinburgh Tango Society Brunch.
http://www.edinburghtango.org.uk/tango/tangomain.php last Feb.
The music hooked me :drool: . Since then I have done a beginners class and intermediate however not enough freestyle. Just getting to grips with Ceroc and Ballroom seem to take up most of my time and it fell away. However there was a Tango Winter Ball in December, dressed in my finest James Bond :waycool: I went along with E (who started the same time as me). We just got there a few minutes before three couples from Argentina did 3 wonderful 'freestyle' dances then all three just graced the floor :drool: :worthy:
After that demo I saw how wonderful and free AT should be danced and I had just THE best night (10pm-2am) of freestyle dancing AT I have ever had. I never left that dance floor.
I hope to get loads of AT in before Scarborough - anyone else going? Yes the Dance Den at Soputhport would be a fine wee venue for some AT. I enjoyed a few Ballroom dances there but I must be honest the Blues room is my home @ Southport :worthy: There was some AT during the day last September in Southport in the Blues room however I was not confident enough then.

It is so much worth the time and effort to learn how to stand still and provide a frame for the follower to be creative in. I love it - sorry why am I am still here? I got AT go.....:clap:

[David Bailey]

If you are giving your partner time to do “all the Kicks” you are doing something right; may be your MJ experience is kicking in
It'd be nice to think so, but really all I'm doing at the moment is providing a pole for the ladies to dance around... OK, I can stop moving and stand still with the best of them, but I know for a fact that I'm not leading much.

It's the "kicking the foot away" and "taking control" part of it that totally eludes me. :tears:

[frodo]

But as its bit like surf city (two girls for every guy)

I'm gonna be singing that all day now! :tears:I don't know if it is at the moment, with the new year influx seen in other dance styles, but that hasn't been my experience in this area - I've not generally seen it very unbalanced and sometimes it's men over.

[JonD]

she was doing all the kicks, the forward ochos-into-weird backward movements, everything.
Sounds like she's "over-decorating" to me! You get that sometimes. She'll be doing lots of boleos and other adornments, though the forward ocho into weird backward movements is a new one on me! You can, as in all things AT, lead followers to do boleos (leg flicks) and such like but it isn't easy as the timing is kind of critical. After 3 months I'd be positively gob-smacked if you could lead them and would also be incredibly jealous! So, it's probably best to let her play - if you want her to stop then just create the intention for a step and she'll pick up on that. Philsmove is right, it's great that you can sense that she wants the space and have the confidence to give it to her.

There's a woman that I dance with occasionally who over-decorates - some adornments are great but if they don't fit the music it can get a bit silly. If she's going crazy I just lead a step and see how she sorts herself out!


It's the "kicking the foot away" and "taking control" part of it that totally eludes me.
It's an illusion! In both barridas and sacadas you don't physically move the followers foot or leg. In a barrida (looks like a foot sweep) you lead them to take the step as normal but keep your foot gently in "kissing" contact with theirs as they do it. With a sacada you simply step into their space so it looks like your leg is pushing their leg away but again there should be just a hint of contact at most. It's all in the timing and accuracy - you need to be able to place both your and the followers feet exactly where you need them at precisely the right moment. I tend to do barridas by leading a side step and placing one of my feet between the followers feet and then leading their step keeping my foot in contact. That's a hell of a lot safer than trying to catch a moving foot with yours although I'm trying to work out how to do that in a giro at the moment (which explains why Julie is developing a limp).

What do you mean by "taking control"?

[jivecat]

Can you post any more details about that please? :)



http://www.tangoloughborough.co.uk/Classes_Page.htm

Don't know if this link will work right, cutting and pasting is about the limit of my IT skills. I've emailed at least 3 people now concerning this class with no response. But various different people have assured me it takes place. They also have them in Market Harboro - might be easier for you to get to?

[David Bailey]

Sounds like she's "over-decorating" to me! You get that sometimes.
Could be. "Over-decorating", nice term, that :)

I think my experience of salsa dancing helped here - some women salsa dancers go shine-crazy, and I know enough to just let them get on with it (and, frankly, to remember not to ask them again).

Don't get me wrong, this lady was great, and the dance was fantastic - the fact that I can remember it, and that I'm analysing it now, speaks volumes for how intense the AT experience is. And frustrating, of course :)


What do you mean by "taking control"?
It's figuring out when she's stopped playing, basically. That's a real weakness in all my dance forms, I'm afraid :sad:

By the way, I found this Tango Wiki (http://tango.smoothouse.com/dance/Main_Page) (another Wiki, :clap: ) - people might find it useful, the glossary is good I think.

JonD, I think you posted a set of Tango links a while back, could you maybe repost them in this thread?

[robd]

I would like to learn AT, it can be such a graceful dance. There are classes in Cambridge but with work pressures and the fact I still have huge amounts to learn in MJ it's taken a bit of a back seat. At the end of the night at Nottingham on Saturday a Tango track was played and a lovely lady asked me to dance and 'Did I do tango?'. She clearly did, her ochos were silky smooth despite my complete lack of frame to assist her.

Robert

[JonD]

JonD, I think you posted a set of Tango links a while back, could you maybe repost them in this thread?
Links are here: Tango Links post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=164986&postcount=1).

And you get me me wittering about AT holidays here: Tango Holidays (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=165631&postcount=1). At the end of the post I mention Eric Jeurissen from El Corte in Holland. I've now had some workshops with him and I can recommend him very, very, very highly! He's fantastic. He teaches in the UK so visit the El Corte site and check out his itinerary (http://www.elcorte.com/learn/ontour.htm) and get to a class if you can. (He's in Edinburgh in February and London in May).

[JonD]

(He's in Edinburgh in February and London in May).
Wrong! That's from his 2005 itinerary - the 2006 one isn't on the El Corte site yet. Sorry.

[Lynn]

Well, now that you mention it .......... Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound as if it was my inspiration! I'm sure I wasn't the first to think of it either, Johnah probably already had been planning to do something.

A friend sent me a link yesterday to a tango holiday - but at £1499 its well out of my current holiday price range!

[David Bailey]

I'm sure I wasn't the first to think of it either, Johnah probably already had been planning to do something.
Yes - I may be guilty of solipsism here, but it seems like AT has become much more popular over the past year or so around here, lots of people seem to be learning it at the moment. So it makes sense to cater for them.

Which is a Good Thing of course :)

[JonD]

A friend sent me a link yesterday to a tango holiday - but at £1499 its well out of my current holiday price range!
Eeek! For that money it has got to be in Buenos Aires and probably in the Dandi Royal. You can do a trip there much more cheaply if you put it together yourself. Flights Madrid-BsAs-Madrid are around £400, you can probably find decent hostel accommodation for about £15 a night and food is really cheap. If you want more information on places to stay, or want some contact details at the Dandi, then let me know. Mind you, I'd hate to go to BsAs on my own - much more fun and less traumatic with someone or as part of a group.

The best value holiday I've found is Tango Valley - it's just brilliant at €410 for the week and the most amazing experience. Pure heaven. Travel costs shouldn't be too horrendous either - unless you live in Belfast from where you can't fly direct to anywhere closer than Nice! Still, French trains are quite cheap or you could do Belfast-Bristol-Toulouse.

[Lynn]

Eeek! For that money it has got to be in Buenos Aires and probably in the Dandi Royal. You can do a trip there much more cheaply if you put it together yourself...
Yes, it was Buenos Aires, I didn't look at it too closely though as no way I could even think about it. I quite like putting holidays together myself though, so would consider that option, but not for this year, I would need to actually go to the AT classes first and learn something!

I'd hate to go to BsAs on my own - much more fun and less traumatic with someone or as part of a group. Possibly why my friend sent me the link, he probably doesn't want to go on his own either!

The best value holiday I've found is Tango Valley - it's just brilliant at €410 for the week and the most amazing experience. Pure heaven. Travel costs shouldn't be too horrendous either - unless you live in Belfast from where you can't fly direct to anywhere closer than Nice! Still, French trains are quite cheap or you could do Belfast-Bristol-Toulouse.That's a more affordable price...Belfast-Bristol can be cheap so that would be a fairly easy option.

[JonD]

It's figuring out when she's stopped playing, basically.
Here's a little game to play - I'd suggest doing it at a practica, rather than a milonga to start with.

With a partner, in practice hold, start by leading a simple walk forwards and backwards. As you walk your partner should try to take over the lead - using intention rather than force (a request rather than an order). As soon as you sense that your partner wants to take over you relinquish the lead and become the follower. Keep repeating the lead swop. When it's starting to work try doing the same thing but without any physical contact between you. (Look: No Hands!)

Next step is to do the same thing but instead of waiting for your partner to take over the lead try suggesting that you want to relinquish the lead. As soon as your partner senses your "offer" then she should accept it. Keep repeating it until you can both feel how to "offer the lead" to your partner and what it feels like to be "offered the lead" and how to let your partner know that you are accepting it. Again, do the same but without physical contact.

When you've got the exercise working reasonably well start to concentrate on making the transfer of lead smooth and almost imperceptible.

It's an interesting exercise and has helped me to develop a sensitivity to when my partner wants to play and when they want to put their toys away. I find it helps in MJ as well as I'm more aware of my partner's "intention".

[philsmove]

It's figuring out when she's stopped playing, basically. ?

This is not my advice (I am just a beginner) but it’s what I think my teachers would tell you

In order for the dance to work there has to be a “Connection” between you and your partner, which why so much time is spent on the way you hold your self and how you embrace your partner. Most ladies will appreciate being given time for decorations. If you want to regain the lead breath in on raise your body and take the lead
“were the man goes the lady must follow” Liz Strictly Ballroom

If you are both listening to and interpreting the music, rather than trying to do a routine, this will help


If after 3 dances you have failed to find “a connection” it’s a valid reason for refusing future dances

[JonD]

were the man goes the lady must follow” Liz Strictly Ballroom
Or as a teacher from Rome once said to me "Be a bull"!

You're right about you taking the lead back but the difficulty is sometimes knowing when your partner wants to relinquish the lead. It may be that you're quite happy standing there letting her rub her leg up and down yours but she's getting bored with it. She isn't going to just stop cold and stare at you so you she needs to develop a way of saying "OK, I've had enough of the coquettish stuff and I want you to be a bull again" and the leader needs to develop the ability to read that. There's a lot in the breathing and slight raising of the frame to say "I'm going to lead you now" and the opposites are a good way to indicate "please take the lead" but that's something I think you need to discover rather simply be told a specific technique". All followers will do it differently so you need to develop the "sense" for it.

It happens to me sometimes when I'm trying to dance Blues, at which I am pretty awful. I've sent my partner out and she's strutting her stuff brilliantly. I'm standing there all proud and strong and quite happy as she makes up to me but fail to spot when she's had enough of the solo act. There's either an awkward pause before I pick up the lead again or she wraps herself round me and whispers in my ear "lead you plonker" or some other similar endearment. (Personally I prefer the latter solution, despite the abuse).

[RogerR]

Prob my MOST intimidating dance experience ever was when sitting behind the one table debating whether to ask a stranger to dance with me (very much a beginner) the two Zotto brothers and the whole cast from T P D came and sat at the same table.

[David Bailey]

Here's a little game to play - I'd suggest doing it at a practica, rather than a milonga to start with.
Thanks! I'll try that on Monday - going to a practica then.


It's an interesting exercise and has helped me to develop a sensitivity to when my partner wants to play and when they want to put their toys away. I find it helps in MJ as well as I'm more aware of my partner's "intention".
Yes - and it certainly sounds like that exercise is transferrable to MJ as well. Interesting...

[Kev F]

I thought I would start a thread for anyone learning Argentine Tango to share their experiences.

Lory and I have been learning small doses of AT over the last five months. It is soooo different from any other dance and every time you learn something it creates another 101 questions to be answered.

I will deal with just one of these.

My initial difficulty was being sure which foot the lady was on at any given point. I used to try and practise when alone, but unfortunately found that even though I could practise the chest lead, it gave me no help to the ladies foot positioning.

So.......I had this great idea.(Nobody in the world knows what I'm about to tell you next) I went out and purchased a Barbie doll and matching Ken (and also got son of B&K for free :clap: ) I would set the up the dolls so as to answer many questions, especially feet postioning and exploring the possibilities available to the lead, at any given point. This was a massive help to me and I would recommend this to any frustrated new AT dancer, who can't wait until the next lesson to have their questions answered.

Unfortunately.......My dog ate them :sad: (bad dog smilie)

Ken and son of Ken were only slightly mauled...oh... and Ken lost the toes on his right foot. Barbie wasn't quite as lucky, but I managed to stick her arm back on with some masking tape.:flower:

The Barbie Tango family are now reunited and dancing well.:clap:

[WittyBird]

The Barbie Tango family are now reunited and dancing well.:clap:


:worthy: :rofl: superb that's really cheered me up!

[Lory]

The Barbie Tango family are now reunited and dancing well.:clap:
:what: I'm seriously worried about you Kev!:what:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Hmm I'm wondering if I really should be worrying about myself? Look at the state of poor Barbie's bitten legs:eek: :sick:

[JonD]

Brilliant! That dog is great. You can just see him growling "Tread on Barbie's feet again and I'll chew your toes off".

[LMC]

I expect the dog was feeling left out - why didn't you ask him or her to dance? - http://www.worldcaninefreestyle.org/

Best laugh I've had all day, thanks Kev

[David Bailey]

This was a massive help to me and I would recommend this to any frustrated new AT dancer, who can't wait until the next lesson to have their questions answered.

Am I the only one who thinks "Hmmm... worth a try..." ?

[JonD]

Am I the only one who thinks "Hmmm... worth a try..." ?
David, they wouldn't understand ...........

[philsmove]

they wouldn't understand ...........



Amy - D.E.B.S. (2003)
sorry wrong thread

[Lory]

I for one am very grateful to Barbie:worthy:

during our lesson yesterday, Kev and I were learning Sacada's (displacement) which basically means, he puts one of his feet between mine, then steps onto it, forcing my foot out of the way. (incidentally, when it goes right, it feels great;) )

But, I had to stand for quite some time on a bent leg:sick: while the other one was being moved (kicked, swished) about. First the teacher would use me to demo, then Kev would have a go, then they'd swap back again.. In the end, Kev was left with a head full of possibilities to try, some work, some don''t but it takes a while to work out why

From any position, there seems to be endless choices but you HAVE to know what foot the ladies on and what angle your coming from :confused:

As a woman, thankfully don't have to worry about all that, I just have to step 'confidently' onto my next foot, gathering the other foot to the 'waiting position,' it's the mans job to know what foot i'm on! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Keep up the good work Barbie!:hug:

[timbp]

With this chart (http://www.close-embrace.com/herman.html), learning tango should be a breeze.

[Lynn]

With this chart (http://www.close-embrace.com/herman.html), learning tango should be a breeze.:really: :tears:

Read on a local forum that the course I have signed up for is now full, glad I made sure I signed up early - first class next Friday.:grin:

At a friends house last night who had several Tango CDs which I have borrowed. Perhaps we should also have a thread on Tango music? There seems to be a wide range, from traditional to all sorts of contemporary stuff.

[David Bailey]

David, they wouldn't understand ...........
I've actually just tried this with a handy Spiderman and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle. Hmmm, not really working well at the moment, they both keep wanting to lead, darn egotistical superheroes.


Read on a local forum that the course I have sign
My local venue is also fully-booked, as a Certain Forumite knows to her cost - it's definitely this year's dance.


At a friends house last night who had several Tango CDs which I have borrowed. Perhaps we should also have a thread on Tango music? There seems to be a wide range, from traditional to all sorts of contemporary stuff.
I'm not even close to being able to understand the music yet - I can just barely differentiate between "slow" and "fast" at the moment.

But a certain Long One might be able to score you a useful CD - just don't tell anyone. :devil:

[Lynn]

I'm not even close to being able to understand the music yet - I can just barely differentiate between "slow" and "fast" at the moment.I also get the impression that there are different schools of thought on the styles of music, esp those who might 'disapprove' of the newer styles? My friend had a set of 3 CDs - Genesis, Revolution and Contemporary. Only listened to the Contemporary one so far (while doing housework), but I liked it - mostly Tango remix and fusion styles.

And I am nowhere near understanding any of it!

[Lynn]

My local venue is also fully-booked, as a Certain Forumite knows to her cost - it's definitely this year's dance. The local Arts Centre had enrolment all week - I enrolled on Monday, just in case it filled up, admittedly feeling a bit over enthusiastic in doing so, but I'm glad I did!

[timbp]

At a friends house last night who had several Tango CDs which I have borrowed. Perhaps we should also have a thread on Tango music? There seems to be a wide range, from traditional to all sorts of contemporary stuff.
I found this site (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_music_beginning.html)interesting and useful (although I haven't had much luck finding the albums they recommend here).

[spindr]

I found this site (http://www.tejastango.com/tango_music_beginning.html)interesting and useful (although I haven't had much luck finding the albums they recommend here).
Try: http://www.milonga.co.uk

SpinDr

P.S. Maybe also http://www.afterfive.co.uk/maps/Tango-links.html

[JonD]

Try: http://www.milonga.co.uk
You could try emailing Mike Lavocah with the list. I've only met him twice but he seems absolutely passionate about Tango music and I'm sure he'd help with advice and assistance.

I seem to have tons of CDs ranging from "golden era" stuff to electronic-Tango. The problem is I really don't know who or what I'm listening to - I like some stuff and get fed up with the "light and frothy" stuff but don't know which is which! Of the little I do recognise, I'd suggest Gotan, Bajafondo and Tanghetto for e-Tango and I just love Astor Piazzolla's slow Tangos. One of the beauties is that you can dance to loads of things that are too slow for MJ: "Perfect Day" by Lou Reed, "The Power of Love" by Hollie Johnson - delicious songs.

[Kev F]

I've actually just tried this with a handy Spiderman and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle. Hmmm, not really working well at the moment, they both keep wanting to lead, darn egotistical superheroes.
Thanks for everyones input regarding this post. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=190941&postcount=30)

Now that I've received the support of others, I feel ready to move to the next level with AT Barbie & Ken :D

One of the kind comments was that Ken had more hair than me and that Barbie, although blonde, was missing some vital characteristics of Lory. :blush:

In a constant quest to improve my dancing aids and the accuracy of Tango Barbie & Ken, I've have carried out the necessary remedial action.

I hope the realism of Kens newly shaven head and Barbies now heaving bosoms, will meet with the forumites approval??

Note: Please pay attention to the realism of Barbies hair caught in the mouth of Ken. Just like dancing with Lory for real!

[Lynn]

:rofl: :rofl:

[Kev F]

Am I the only one who thinks "Hmmm... worth a try..." ?

Don't feel alone David. We are all in this AT thing together.

If it helps, I have noticed a certain jango/tango dance teacher has hijacked my idea and already has his own dancing dolls on the market :sad:

But fortunately, the 'Tango Lory & Kev F©' dolls, are now copyrighted :clap:

Is it just me, or is that really Amir????????????? :D

[Kev F]

Rather than hi-jack the north London thread any more, or start a 'NI' localised thread, I thought I would start a thread for anyone learning Argentine Tango to share their experiences.

After the slow learning process of AT it was nice to progress a move other than walking. It was the inspiration which gave me a light at the end of the tunnel. We all want to be able to do the flashy, twiddly leg bits as this is the image we have of the tango dance style. It is very difficult to get enthusiastic about walking, although I do understand the need for this foundation.

The Sandwiche
Pic 1: The lady is in a backward ocho. The man blocks her left foot with his right and sandwiches it with his left :clap:

Pic 2: The lady is encouraged (by the man opening out) to step over the mans left leg with her right. The man applies resistance to stop her continuing any further. (Look how pleased Ken is with himself to be doing something other than walking)

Pic 3: The man pivots slightly ACW, forming room under his left knee, for the lady to hook her right leg up in true tango style.

Pic 3: At this point the ladies hair may swiftly whip the mans face as shown.

I hope this very simple explanation may encourage Lynn as it did me :flower:

And also enables me to show you the full potential of Tango Barbie & Ken :D

Any variations from 'Sandwiche' anyone... or style variations ??????

[Zebra Woman]

Love all your posts on this thread Kev :worthy: :clap:

Oh yes...

Varations?

The variation where instead of the leg flick, Barbie slides her right ankle really slowly up the inside of Ken's right thigh. :drool:

Just a thought, I haven't had any AT lessons.

I have to say what a pleasure it was to meet Barbie and Ken on Friday night. I was particularly amused by the enhancements you had made to make them more like yourself and Lory.

But, I have to say, I'm not sure they should be transported together in the side pocket of your dance bag Kev. Did you see what they were up to in there?

More moves please Kev :flower:


ZW

[David Bailey]

The Sandwiche
...

That's simultaneously the funniest and the most informative demonstration of a tango move I've seen, :worthy: :worthy:

OK, that settles it, I'm getting a Ken and Barbie tomorrow.

Any more move demonstrations / descriptions, I'd love to see them - rep for each one :innocent:

[LMC]

Kev, are you on commission? :rofl: :clap:

(either from the makers of Barbie - Mattel? - or a tango teacher somewhere)

If not, you should be, your posts are just classic :worthy:

[JonD]

I should have sent Barbie and Ken along to the milonga last night. I was utterly useless - just one of those nights when nothing seems to work. I had a bit of an upset tum, Julie had pulled a muscle in her back and we danced like a pair of exhausted penguins. Not good. It was the first night I've danced AT since the New Year and was so disappointing after having such a fab time in Holland. Never mind, there are plenty of nights in the future.

I hope everyone has more fun at the practica at he Dome tonight. If they perfect the "Barbie leg caress" then it's bound to be great!

[Lynn]

The local Arts Centre had enrolment all week - I enrolled on Monday, just in case it filled up, admittedly feeling a bit over enthusiastic in doing so, but I'm glad I did!Just heard froma friend who booked on the Tues (!) that he got one of the last places - but that the teacher is going to let some people join in for the practice part (9:30-10pm) as so many couldn't get onto the course. And she might even extend the time a bit - so looks like we are going to get a bit of tango 'scene' going in Belfast! :clap:


Love all your posts on this thread Kev :worthy: :clap:
:yeah: :worthy:

[Daisy Chain]

:rofl: Aren't you Boys a little too old to be playing with dolls?

Daisy

(A Grown-Up Little Flower)

[Lory]

In a constant quest to improve my dancing aids and the accuracy of Tango Barbie & Ken, I've have carried out the necessary remedial action.

I hope the realism of Kens newly shaven head and Barbies now heaving bosoms, will meet with the forumites approval??

Note: Please pay attention to the realism of Barbies hair caught in the mouth of Ken. Just like dancing with Lory for real!
:rofl:


Now, in the interests of realism, (as you said) I think a leettle bit MORE hair needs to come off Kev ;) :whistle:

And, I been shopping! :innocent: :waycool: :na:

And forgive me, but while I was browsing, I found a little number for you too! :yum:

[Tiggerbabe]

And, I been shopping! :innocent: :waycool: :na:

OOoh, Lory, I need that dress!- Where did you get it? :wink:

[Lory]

OOoh, Lory, I need that dress!
Yes, I've heard it's all the rage on Cruise ships these days!
:wink:


Where did you get it? :wink:
An exclusive little shop in Knightsbridge! :waycool: The choice is endless;) Wedding dresses, sparkling princess dresses, horse riding outfits, ballet suits and the even have outfits for when one goes into space... how cool is that? :na:

[Tiggerbabe]

An exclusive little shop in Knightsbridge! :waycool:
Blast! I was kinda hoping for TKMAXX :wink:
(I've still got Wednesday afternoon to do some pre-cruise shopping :D )

[Little Monkey]

Oh, and everyone nag John who runs Southport. I emailed him and it looks like we might have the "4th room" for a milonga one night at Southport in June. We need to remind him that there is significant demand. Anyone want to DJ?

Wo-hoooooooooooooo!

I can really show off how rubbish I am!:clap:

[foxylady]

OOoh, Lory, I need that dress!- Where did you get it? :wink:

Which dress ? the black one saying drama queen ?? In which case, try Karen Millen... I have the red version but they do black too... almost impossible to MJ in , or walk up stairs, or get in or out of a taxi, but absobleedin'lutely gorgeous....

4084

(Sparkles helped (talked me into) buying it !)

[Lynn]

Went to the Lindy group tonight (this is relevant to Tango, bear with me) - arrived too late to join in the class ('cos I got sidetracked watching 'Life on Mars':rolleyes: ) and perhaps because I haven't been at the classes for a while no-one asked me to dance afterwards :tears: (though to be fair there were only ever about 3 couples dancing at any one time - and I did get a few MJ dances with a fellow cerocer.)

I was feeling rather down and thinking I shouldn't have bothered when I got chatting to the teacher about AT, I know he does it, but didn't realise how much (all outside of NI). We spent a bit of time going over some basics (mostly just walking and how the man gets the woman's weight on the correct foot etc) which was helpful. I can see a long journey ahead...

[under par]

Which dress ? the black one saying drama queen ?? In which case, try Karen Millen... I have the red version but they do black too... almost impossible to MJ in , or walk up stairs, or get in or out of a taxi, but absobleedin'lutely gorgeous....

4084

(Sparkles helped (talked me into) buying it !)


Please don't show Mrs Par:eek: We are in dire need of more wardrobe space already!:flower:

[Tiggerbabe]

In which case, try Karen Millen...
WOW! :drool: :drool: :drool: That's just gorgeous :hug:

[Zebra Woman]

More moves please Kev :flower:
ZW

Kev please could Barbie and Ken demostrate some moves from the the BBC tango dancing clip?

You know, the one that they use to link programmes with Ricardo and Jenni dancing in the rain.

I think they do an exit from a sandwiche where Barbie does a really high kick.. .but what happens next? I'd like to see that.

Perhaps you could dress Tango Barbie and Ken in red and black and then photograph them outdoors in the rain (or low budget option - in the shower) for extra authenticity?

ZW

[philsmove]

Back on Thread


Tonight we had a visiting teacher LUCIANA VALLE :worthy: :clap: :worthy: from ARGENTINA

If any of you get a chance of a lesson from this remarkable lady

Go to it. I promise you, you will not be disappointed

She is on a mission to teach the word to Tango

For long time we simply had to,embrace our partner, close our eyes, and “feel the heat”

And then …….

. as I said - if you get the chance go to one her classes :clap:

[JonD]

HELP! I'm terrified.

Ruth, our AT teacher, has asked Julie and I to do an AT demo at an event in Totnes on 3rd March. Evidently it's some kind of "celebrate the diversity of our community, including dance" thing and Ruth is teaching abroad on that day so she asked us. Apart from being flattered I'm also scared to death as performing in public really isn't my thing. Julie loves it, I hate it! We've agreed because we think it'll kick our dancing to a new level and Ruth has offered to give us two private lessons to help polish up our act.

So, where do we start? Julie will have her own ideas but I haven't got a clue about how you put this sort of demonstration together and I'd like to have some input. On the few times when I've been dragged, screaming and kicking, into a demonstration we've just freestyled it but I think we're going to need a routine for this one. What's the best way of designing one? Tell a story - the old "boy meets girl ...." thing and then chose some music and work out what movement will fit the story? Decide on the music then invent a story to fit that? We won't get a chance to rehearse until we get back from holiday on 11th Feb so we can't do anything that takes weeks.

All advice will be gratefully received including the kind of shapes that we should use. I'm going to watch that AT demo from SCD again - although we'll look nothing like those dancers except in my dreams!

[LMC]

Sympathy :hug:

And if you'll forgive me being bleedin' obvious - it sounds to me like you're doing Ruth a favour here - perhaps she can lend you some videos for ideas or give you some pointers of what works well?

Good luck :nice:

[David Bailey]

So, where do we start? Julie will have her own ideas but I haven't got a clue about how you put this sort of demonstration together and I'd like to have some input. On the few times when I've been dragged, screaming and kicking, into a demonstration we've just freestyled it but I think we're going to need a routine for this one. What's the best way of designing one? Tell a story - the old "boy meets girl ...." thing and then chose some music and work out what movement will fit the story? Decide on the music then invent a story to fit that?
First of all, :clap: - demonstrator, wow :)

Bearing in mind you'll be performing for the general public, I'd focus on the fact that it's a show, not an exhibition.

So you need to make it entertaining and interesting. Alas, that could mean you'll need to choose some popular-ish music first (well, relatively popular), then work it out from there.

I'm not totally convinced that a routine would be necessary, unless you think you'd be more confident with one - again, it's dancing for the public, they're not likely to notice or appreciate finer points of style. Music first, then clothing, then routine, would be my advice.

[Lynn]

First of all, :clap: - demonstrator, wow :)
:yeah: :worthy:

[JonD]

Thanks for the advice and support!


Bearing in mind you'll be performing for the general public, I'd focus on the fact that it's a show, not an exhibition.
That's what I was thinking - hang the technique and put together a rehearsed routine that looks like the real thing!

We're really not good enough for a demo. I think we're OK at the simple stuff but we don't do anything "flashy" and that is what we'll have to work on before doing a performance. We're going to need a really dramatic section. I think we're going to need lots of boleos, ganchos, some fancy lapis stuff (I can do a giro with a reasonable lapis but there's a thing I've seen where the guy kicks between the ladies legs as she takes the side step - could be very nasty if you get the timing wrong and balance in the turn is key), fast sacadas, barridas, counter-balance pivots, deep volcadas and a big lunge to finish. So, all the stuff I can't do! Ho hum.

Julie's got some fantastic AT dresses so she'll look great - she always does. I've got a 1938 double-breasted dark blue pinstripe 3-piece suit that is pretty damn sharp. If I combine that with a 1940s tie (red background with large blobs that look like fried eggs with blue yokes - you really have to see it), my trilby and the most outrageous black and red Tango shoes (black leather toe & heel, red nubuck through the centre) do you think it will be OK?

I heard a great version of La Cumparsita in Nijmegen - everyone recognises that immediately as the definitive Tango. Mind you, I haven't really liked it since I read a translation of the lyrics "and that friendly puppy who because of your absence did not eat, when it saw me all alone, the other day it also left me". Pathetic!

[David Bailey]

So, all the stuff I can't do! Ho hum.
Can't do them? I can't even pronounce them. :tears:

You'll be great I'm sure - maybe post some pictures afterwards?

[philsmove]

I think if I had to do a public demo number one on the list would be a track we both really like; probably something from Pink Martine, Hang on little Tomato

[philsmove]

Can't do them? I can't even pronounce them. :tears:

?
My TA partner is torn between more Tango Classes and continuing her Spanish class :whistle:

At the moment Tango is winning :clap:

[JonD]

....probably something from Pink Martine, Hang on little Tomato
Phil, can you bring the CD to Morzine? I'll buy you beer in return! We'll take loads of Tango stuff as well. We'll have to start putting the routine together when we're on holiday - I hope we can use the dance floor on the non-Jive nights.

I've got the details of the event now and am even more terrified than before. The event is something called a "Dance Platform" and will be held at the Aerial Centre in Totnes. We'll be doing a 5 minute performance on the main floor with tiered seating all round and 200+ people in the audience - a lot of them dancers. Eeek. It's going to have to be a pretty polished performance if we're going to give a good account of AT!


....maybe post some pictures afterwards?
OK - then we can all laugh about it together!

[philsmove]

Phil, can you bring the CD to Morzine? I'll buy you beer in return! We'll take loads of Tango stuff as well. We'll have to start putting the routine together when we're on holiday - I hope we can use the dance floor on the non-Jive nights.

they are already in my dance bag :cheers:

[Lynn]

OK - report on my first lesson (well, strictly speaking my first AT lesson was actually back in Oct 04 - but there were only two classes then it stopped).

Class was 8:00-9:30 then 9:30 - 10pm was practice time. More women than men (of course!) but not as bad as salsa. Some women danced as lead so there was no standing out in the rotation.

In the class she mentioned musicality, technique, syncopation and talked a lot about lead and follow - a bit different to a first night at MJ (and there were a few people in the class who had no previous dance experience).

We did walking, then partnered up and more walking. Then 4 count basic (correct term? side, side, walk, walk) then 4 step basic (walk walk -men crossing feet, then side) then added a back step for the men to make it a 6 count move. She also talked a bit about lanes. Each time she added something on she went over all the moves and got us to practice them, encouraging the lead to keep changing between the different steps to make sure the woman was following. If she saw a lot of students doing something wrong she gave a 'don't do this, do this' illustration to us all as a class - if she saw a couple struggling she went over and helped them.

For the practice time - she told us it was part of the class so we should all stay and take part, told us the ettiquette of how to ask (men only doing the asking - though I guess the woman can look at a guy and indicate she would like to be asked!) - explained it should be at least 2 dances, preferably 4, and the man should walk the lady back to her seat (no-one actually did that bit!)

Highlights of the evening were when getting a bit tangled up with one guy - she came over to us and danced with us both to see where the problem was and said to me 'Perfect - very good!' - that was encouraging :flower: (though she did say it in a slightly surprised tone of voice! :rolleyes: ). And in the practica, with a more experienced tango dancer who was a good lead - I just closed my eyes and followed - lovely!:drool:

I really enjoyed it and am looking forward to next week. :clap:

[JonD]

Fantastic! And I'm really impressed that she's making the practice time part of the class and covering etiquette stuff as well. We don't do the "men always ask" bit here and I'm not a fan of it - but it is traditional I guess.

It sounds as if you did really well - if you can close your eyes and just follow on your first night, no matter how good the lead, then you're pretty amazing!

After dancing like a penguin last Sunday I decided to do the beginner & improver classes in Exeter on Tuesday. I was surprised how difficult it was to lead ladies in their 3rd or 4th week, and how tense I got. Ruth came over and told me to relax and lead from my centre - which was great because it gave me something to concentrate on in my own movement and stopped me focussing so much on adjusting for my partner. I really enjoyed the evening and got a lot out of it so I'll go again this Tuesday.

Keep us posted on how it goes next week. I bet that before the end of February you'll be crying out for a mid-week practica so you can get an additional AT "fix" each week!

[Lynn]

Fantastic! And I'm really impressed that she's making the practice time part of the class and covering etiquette stuff as well. She said some people might think 'practice time' was an extra bit and leave, and she really wants us all to practice as much as possible so she emphasised it was part of the class.
We don't do the "men always ask" bit here and I'm not a fan of it - but it is traditional I guess. Well she did say the men would make eye contact from across the room first and then come over and ask - so I made eye contact with a guy I know from MJ which prompted him to come over and ask, so I guess us women can have some input!

It sounds as if you did really well - if you can close your eyes and just follow on your first night, no matter how good the lead, then you're pretty amazing! That's very encouraging. But it is something you are supposed to do isn't it? (I don't think the teacher mentioned it at all) It certainly seemed to help me follow better and I was trying to not 'think' too much - just 'feel' the dance.

I really enjoyed the evening and got a lot out of it so I'll go again this Tuesday. And the 3rd and 4th week ladies you danced with will have got a lot out of it as well, it makes a difference having even one dance with someone who is more experienced.:flower:

I bet that before the end of February you'll be crying out for a mid-week practica so you can get an additional AT "fix" each week!What about when the course ends at the end of March - what will I do then?! :tears:

Though I had a 'forum' moment last night (not this forum!) - the more experienced dancer I referred to has been posting about AT on a local dance forum and introduced himself to me with his forum name. He came along for the practica, but I read on the local forum last night that he wants to get a regular milonga going in Belfast at some stage!:clap:

[philsmove]

What about when the course ends at the end of March - what will I do then?!

You could move to Bristol:cheers:

[Lynn]

You could move to Bristol:cheers:I've already been thinking that I've spent the past 1 1/2 years travelling outside of NI to dance MJ, now am I going to have to start and do the same thing for AT?

There is a good tango scene in Dublin - I think there are classes/milongas almost every night of the week and a few weekend tango festivals every year, so at least there will be something I can get to by car/train rather than 'plane!

[David Bailey]

She said some people might think 'practice time' was an extra bit and leave, and she really wants us all to practice as much as possible so she emphasised it was part of the class.
That's an excellent idea - I really felt the lack of practice time at last term's classes.


What about when the course ends at the end of March - what will I do then?! :tears:
I know! Scary isn't it? - time without Tango :eek: :hug:

Glad to hear you enjoyed it, Lynn, and please keep us posted.

[Lory]

This week, mine and Kev's lesson covered the 'Giro' (hero) in more depth.

I was having a problem keeping a good connection,:rolleyes: our teacher kele, did some trouble shooting and discovered that I was travelling away from Kev on the backward ocho. To remedy this, I have to create a bit more self momentum on the hip turn, to propel my self round a bit further, so my backward step is more parallel to Kev, than away from him. That small change made a heap of difference. :clap: I was reasurred it's a common mistake.

The next thing I have to concentrate on, is keeping my heals skimming the floor, I have a tendency to stand on tip toe, which is affecting my balance.

Kev had the hard bit, he had to learn where/how to place his feet 'between' mine (without kicking me) as I'm circling him.:waycool: :worthy:



Which is, to me, what makes it so intense - it forces you to lead / follow all the time. Until you do that, you don't realise how "lazy" most MJ dancing is, and how little attention most MJ-ers actually pay to their partners. At the moment, it almost feels like I'm holding my breath during each AT dance....
He he, I do the same..

I have to keep being reminded to take a breath! :what:

The thing is, the need to concentration is so intense right now, I'm finding breathing is a major interruption!:rofl:

Apparently, when the woman gets really good, she no longer 'thinks', she becomes completely submissive to her partner, surrendering herself to his lead. :innocent: Kele assures me, it's a very relaxing feeling (I'm starting to wonder if this dance was invented by male control freaks?:devil: ) I'm clearly not very good yet! :D

And yes, after AT, MJ's a doddle! I just do it for sheer relaxation now... :waycool: :whistle: :wink:

[JonD]

This week, mine and Kev's lesson covered the 'Giro' (hero) in more depth.
Spooky! Julie and I spent a couple of hours working on giros and molinettes last night (we're stealing a move Ian and Zoe did in the AT demo on SCD for this dance demo thing - it looked easier than it is). I find staying on the circumference of the circle really difficult, particularly when trying to keep some kind of quality in the step. When Julie is turning round me she has a habit of taking a short-cut and stepping across the circle on her side step and that throws me back on my heels. Get Kev doing them as well so you can feel the problems you cause each other!


Apparently, when the woman gets really good, she no longer 'thinks', she becomes completely submissive to her partner, surrendering herself to his lead.
I wish! Seriously, the follower only follows because she chooses to accept the leader's invitation. Keeping that "tension" between you - and a touch of coquettish "maybe I will, maybe I won't" is great. If you surrender yourself it's only because you choose to; when you feel like it you can still stick a spanner in the leader's works.

[JonD]

All this talk of walking on the Jango thread has prompted me to offer another little exercise. For this one you need a really steep hill and, if at all possible, a partner.

The first part is simple: walk up the hill. Get used to the sensation of pushing off your standing leg and letting your working (moving leg) arrive under your body just in time to stop you falling. Keep in balance, look up at a spot at the top of the hill and maintain good body posture.

Now comes the tricky bit: walk backwards down the hill. Get your partner to walk to your side with the palm of their hand on your upper chest. You have to maintain a connection with that hand despite the fact that you are walking backwards away from it - so keep your "presence" forward. Reach back with your leg and feel for the ground and then transfer your weight onto it as your body moves back over the leg. Look up - pick a spot and keep looking at it - and remember your posture. Feel for the ground but don't be tentative - your partner will, hopefully, stop you before you walk into a pothole or ditch or the middle of a motorway.

It's really fun and nowhere near as easy as it sounds. Komala and Stefan used this technique when we were at Tango Valley the year before last - and they have steep, steep hills at Frayssinette! Once you are used to the way it feels you can do the walking forward bit every time you go to the shops - assuming you aren't in East Anglia or Lincolnshire. OK, so people will look at you as if you're a bit strange but what the hell - they don't dance AT.

[Yogi_Bear]

I won't have a regular partner, but I know two MJ guys going so hopefully will get the chance to practice* a bit with them.

The class I am going to is listed as 8-10pm, so hopefully that will include some practice time.


(Or practise, sorry, I never know which I should use. :blush: )
practice=noun
practise=verb

[Lynn]

All this talk of walking on the Jango thread has prompted me to offer another little exercise. For this one you need a really steep hill and, if at all possible, a partner. Another 'need a partner' thing:tears: (I could find the steep hills easily enough!)

Get your partner to walk to your side with the palm of their hand on your upper chest. I wonder if explaining that bit of the exercise first would make it any easier to get a guy to volunteer to help me with this exercise? :whistle: :rolleyes:

Seriously, that sounds useful and will try it. I must cut and paste your recent helpful posts and make a list of exercises to be working on.

[LMC]

Well, despite the best efforts of London Transport, I made it to Tufnell Park only five minutes late and had changed my shoes in time to join the tail end of the warm up.

The class is described as "basics" rather than beginners as intermediate dancers are encouraged to attend - and there is an intermediate class following straight on, although I'm not sure if anyone is attending at the moment. However, the material is suitable for beginners: I found it very challenging, but not to the extent where I had to sit and go "wibble". There were only 11 people and Hamza, the fabulous teacher, made the numbers of men and women exactly even :clap: :clap: His passion for the dance is evident (isn't that just a *gorgeous* quote on my expanded signature? - and I don't mean the forward, back, side bit either).

To start with, we spent some time walking round the room - ball of foot in full contact with the floor at all times and the variation of the "heel flick" (not quite sure what it's called, but apparently people who have played soccer have a distinct advantage).

After that, there was some practice on pivot turns - both directions, *both* feet (turning clockwise with the weight on your left foot whilst keeping both feet on the floor :eek: ).

After that, we made a square of four talc spots on the floor and practised grapevine step - forward on the left, pivot a/c, side, pivot a/c, back, side... breaking it down to forward/side and back/side as well as practising the whole thing with and without a partner. I think I got the hang of it in the end... although practising on Platform 9A while waiting for my train home got me some funny looks. Maybe it was eating chips at the same time? Anyway, the talc got everywhere of course, which was fun when it came to later in the lesson - still haven't beat ZW's slide record but gimme a couple of weeks :devil: The really interesting bit for me was watching the obviously more experienced woman, who had a lovely neat sharp recognisable square of talc where her "spots" had spread as she slid her feet around. I wish I'd taken a photo of the results of my sliding around as I'd probably make a fortune selling it as modern art - or for use as an ink blot equivalent in personality tests.

After enough of that to make my left inner thigh muscles start complaining, we practised the grapevine in lines a few times, then partnered up and practised it with our partners. It was very very difficult doing grapevine steps when the guys weren't - Hamza had them concentrate on their leading first and is a big fan of following the chest (and the leader watching the follower's shoulders). My main fault was failing to pivot sufficiently on the back step :blush:

Unfortunately, no practica along the same lines as Lynn's class - but we did have a couple of tracks at the end to walk around to and Hamza encouraged us to go to a practica. I think I'll wait until I can actually do the grapevine in my sleep, not just hear it (as I suspect I will in my dreams tonight).

I'm in lurve... :drool: - wonder if there's a class somewhere on Thursday? :innocent:

It's going to be quite some time before the merest hint of a possibility of there being any potential for me to be "... fluid, like water, like the wind". But I'll stick with it.

Whew, that's a mammoth post even by my standards - I'm off to re-read all the others now with fresh eyes and hopefully a miniscule understanding to help me :). Just remains to say thanks for encouragement from so many people :flower:

[Lynn]

Sounds like it was as good as my first class!:clap:


Unfortunately, no practica along the same lines as Lynn's class - but we did have a couple of tracks at the end to walk around to and Hamza encouraged us to go to a practica. I'm glad we do have though as this is currently the only AT practica in Belfast. Hopefully you will find a practica to go to.

I'm in lurve... :drool: :yeah: Ok - what is it about Tango? I've 'sampled' various dance styles over the past couple of years - none seem to have the impact on me that Tango has. What is it about this dance that seems to reach deeper than other dances?

It's going to be quite some time before the merest hint of a possibility of there being any potential for me to be "... fluid, like water, like the wind". But I'll stick with it. Me too!

[Lory]

My main fault was failing to pivot sufficiently on the back step :blush:


I've heard it's a common problem :whistle: :wink:

Well done Sandre and thanks for your post, very enjoyable reading :flower:

[JonD]

I'm in lurve...
Great! I'm so glad you enjoyed it and have been "bitten" by AT. The talc thing sounds a great idea and covering pivots, backward and forward ochos and sidesteps at the first class is something of a coup! Hamza sounds really good and I just love the quote - it gives us something to aim for. Brilliant.

I've just got back from the beginner & improver lessons here in Exeter and had a fab time. The beginners did forward ochos, walking and sidesteps and I had a fun time leading some of them through the class. There was one woman who was really tentative, trying to work out my lead and apologising all the time. I got her laughing and asked her to try and be proud and confident - to take a strong step in the direction and on the leg that seemed right to her and let me worry if it went wrong. I think she found it a bit difficult (it was her first class) but she tried and everything started to work much better. Seeing the smile on her face and the expression of slight incredulity that she'd actually danced a Tango was just wonderful. I hope she's got the bug now!


What is it about this dance that seems to reach deeper than other dances?
At the start of the improver class Ruth asked us to dance one Tango, keeping it simple and concentrating on being relaxed and grounded. I danced with Stephanie, who has been going to AT for about 3 months. Ruth played "Oblivion" by Astor Piazzolla which is, I think, my favourite Tango. The quality of stillness, connection and peace which we found in that dance was incredible - it was mesmerising. We did nothing other than walk, a few ochos, a few sidesteps but I could have gone on doing that all night. As the music ended, Stephanie and I stayed in the embrace and took a moment to come back to reality. We both felt the same; it was just magical. Somehow AT has the power to blend your souls into a perfect moment of communion with each other and the music. What a wonderful dance!

Then we did sacadas - just simple ones - and I was reminded of how much I've got to learn before I can really flow in the dance. Just think how delicious AT is going to be as we become more "fluid, like water, like wind".

[David Bailey]

Taken from another thread:

You don't smile during Tango then?

Apparently, it's supposed to look very serious and intense, I believe?

Looking at LatinLover and Susie tango-ing, they're always looking very serious (and very good of course), and I think I've heard that smiling is, err, frowned upon. So to speak.

[LMC]

*goes and hunts down "Smiling" thread, 'cos I don't think that's been Tango'd yet :devil:

I think I'd actually be rather disconcerted by someone's teeth flashing that close to my ear. Not smiling doesn't necessarily equate to miserable!

[philsmove]

Taken from another thread:


Apparently, it's supposed to look very serious and intense, I believe?

Looking at LatinLover and Susie tango-ing, they're always looking very serious (.......


LUCIANA VALLE:worthy:
Taught us
We should not smile
We should not frown
The face should be completely neutral and relaxed

[LMC]

Like this? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4061&d=1137332226) :innocent:

(from Kev F's post - #49 on this thread)

[JonD]

Originally Posted by Lynn
You don't smile during Tango then?
Damn! And I've been grinning away and, horror of horrors, even laughing at times. Why didn't someone tell me?! Note to self: must learn to look intense and brooding and serious and such like at all times when dancing AT.

[frodo]

Taken from another thread:
Apparently, it's supposed to look very serious and intense, I believe?

Looking at LatinLover and Susie tango-ing, they're always looking very serious (and very good of course), and I think I've heard that smiling is, err, frowned upon. So to speak.
If you're doing it *properly* I'm not sure your partner can see whether you're smiling or not, so it thing thing of not smiling must be for the audience / create an ambience ?


Thinking about it I think people who've been doing it a long time can look like a bit of a dour lot.


Having said that I remember watching some ladies with huge smiles, as their partners couldn't see it I guess they must have been really enjoying it ( rather than smiling for the benefit of their partner ).

[philsmove]

Tonight’s lesson was one of those 1 step forward and 3 back:tears:

I can’t tell you what the steps were but I got completely lost :tears: :tears:

A bit like the first time I tried to lean the full nelson :tears: :tears: :tears:

Any how

I think this “the look”:waycool:

[Lynn]

Tonight’s lesson was one of those 1 step forward and 3 back:tears:

I can’t tell you what the steps were but I got completely lost :tears: :tears: :hug: There will be weeks like that ahead for me as well I suspect...

Someone from did try to lead me in moves from Fri's class tonight at Ceroc, but it was straight from a Ceroc move (we need those Jango gateway moves) and it was so long since we (the lead and I) had actually danced MJ together that we gave up on it and went back to MJ. (We can have a Tango dance on Fri night at the practica.)

Re the smiling - as I said in the other thread, I think my expression will be mainly that of sheer concentration, with the occasional expression of pure pleasure - but I'll make sure I stop that instantly and look serious again.

[garthmartin]

Well Lynn looking forward to tango tonight

I seen your post about partners, will need to get togeher more and practice
Good to read all the good ideas and links in this thread

[Lynn]

Well Lynn looking forward to tango tonight See you later for a dance Garth!

[JonD]

There will be weeks like that ahead for me as well I suspect...
"Penguin nights" - is that a fair description?!

I'm off skiing tomorrow (yippee) so no AT classes for a while but Julie and I will try and work on that demonstration thing while we're away. I'm going to see if I can bribe Philsmove to assist - I'm sure beer will do the trick! If nothing else we'll probably get some practice "walking up the hill", but it might be a bit odd in ski boots.


I seen your post about partners, will need to get togeher more and practice
Good on you G!

[philsmove]

I'm off skiing tomorrow (yippee) .............. I'm going to see if I can bribe Philsmove to assist

I shall expect to see you do some backward ocho’s on the piste :whistle:

[JonD]

I shall expect to see you do some backward ocho’s on the piste
Given the way I ski, that is almost inevitable!

[Lynn]

Week 2 -

More walking of course! We went over everything we had done last week (which was good as several people had missed the first week) - 4 count walk, 4 and 6 count basic and added 8 count basic (which I recognised as what I had done in the class I went to in Oct 04). But this week she was focusing on lead and follow, with a little about posture and floorcraft as well. All the usual stuff that you learn about lead and follow after you have been dancing a while but doesn't seem to get mentioned in the early classes of other dances.

She even did a demo of backleading and explained why this was bad even if the man was going too slowly as the man needs to learn to lead.:flower:

I got the teacher in the rotation, which made me very self-consious but was good as she was giving me good feedback on softening my knees, my posture etc. The class ran on till almost 10pm so there was only a short practica afterwards and the nice lead I danced with last week didn't ask me this week :( (he didn't dance with anyone, he didn't even take his coat off - the hall was very cold!)

I'll miss next week :tears: due to being in Scarborough :clap: AFAIK there will be some Tango workshops there so I will hopefully get to those.

[jivecat]

Tonight’s lesson was one of those 1 step forward and 3 back:tears:

I can’t tell you what the steps were but I got completely lost :tears: :tears:



Any kind of lesson and I'm instantly confused. I couldn't even work out how to turn my shoulders slightly whilst walking straight ahead last week.:blush:
The freestyle bit usually goes much better- how come I can do it when someone leads me?

My level of level of interest has risen from:
*Hmm, seems like a nice dance. Nice frocks (and shoes), to
*Tell me more, to
*Weekender craving

in four short weeks. Is this normal? It has been a most eventful January. :)

So, has anyone got any knowledge or feedback about the Tango Toolkit workshops which are run in a village hall in Bramcote near Southampton? They are running a beginner's weekend in mid-Feb, and I'm very tempted to book on if there were still spaces.

[Lynn]

My level of level of interest has risen from:
*Hmm, seems like a nice dance. Nice frocks (and shoes), to
*Tell me more, to
*Weekender craving

in four short weeks. Is this normal? It has been a most eventful January. :) Sounds about normal - I was warned this could be addictive. My dancing level isn't at the weekender craving stage - but hopefully will be by the time there are some events in Dublin. I'll know I'm really hooked when I start pricing flights to Buenos Aires...

[jivecat]

I'll know I'm really hooked when I start pricing flights to Buenos Aires...

Well, I've been borrowing travel guides to Argentina from the library already....

[Lynn]

Well, I've been borrowing travel guides to Argentina from the library already....You're more addicted than me then. (I'm only in week 2, give me another fortnight!) I know folk going to BA and I'm looking forward to hearing about their trip. There are other (cheaper) holidays to places to tango though so maybe next year...

[David Bailey]

Any kind of lesson and I'm instantly confused. I couldn't even work out how to turn my shoulders slightly whilst walking straight ahead last week.:blush:
Ooh, I know this! It's called "dissociation" I believe, and it describes the "natural" (yeah right) way your head then upper body turns to prepare your feet to do the turning bit.

But, and this is the important bit, there's no hip movement.

And I speak as one who's close to getting the permanent (and derogatory :( ) nickname of "Mr salsa hips" at tango classes.

Anyway, dissociation is a complete b*gger to get right deliberately, but I think it's one of those key things that makes Tango look Tango-y.


My level of level of interest has risen from:
*Hmm, seems like a nice dance. Nice frocks (and shoes), to
*Tell me more, to
*Weekender craving

in four short weeks. Is this normal?
Sounds about right to me :)

[jivecat]

Sounds about right to me :)


Sounds about normal

The lunatics have taken over the asylum...:clap:

[LMC]

in four short weeks. Is this normal?
Why did it take you so long?

[Lory]

in four short weeks. Is this normal? It has been a most eventful January. :)


It's happened to me too! :blush:

I suspect they put something in our drinks each week... :devil:

[spindr]

So, has anyone got any knowledge or feedback about the Tango Toolkit workshops which are run in a village hall in Bramcote near Southampton? They are running a beginner's weekend in mid-Feb, and I'm very tempted to book on if there were still spaces.

Is it Bramshaw perhaps? With Steve & Debbie from Tango UK?
Bramshaw is a nice small hall in the middle of the New Forest -- ponies, etc., etc. Good dance floor. Bar - reasonable prices, etc. Not sure about accomodation I usually drive in from Basingstoke.

Steve and Debbie are great teachers -- they'll teach you how to dance -- not how to perform moves -- may have to think, tho'. With luck Steve'll play his bandoneon live :) Oh and he's a good DJ.

Cheers,
SpinDr.

P.S. If you need a partner...

[Lynn]

is a nice small hall in the middle of the New Forest -- ponies, etc., etc. Good dance floor. Bar - reasonable prices, etc. Never heard of a dance venue with ponies before! :rofl:

For all those on here who add 'and I want a pony' to their wish lists - send them all there!

(I know what you meant! The native breeds are great, I used to have a Connemara).

[David Bailey]

A thought occurred to me from this post of CeeCee's (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=197808&postcount=108) - it sounds like Frederico's class is fairly move-focussed, whereas the class Clive and I do is probably more technique-focussed.

You need both, of course, and neither is inherently "better" than the other; the key differentiator, as always, is how good the teacher is.

But I was wondering - are people generally learning in move-focussed or technique-focussed classes?

[LMC]

A tango poll :clap: :clap: :clap:

Mine appears to be a mixture, but I'll let you know once I've done a few more :blush:

[jivecat]

Is it Bramshaw perhaps? With Steve & Debbie from Tango UK?
The very one, sorry.


Steve and Debbie are great teachers -- they'll teach you how to dance -- not how to perform moves -- may have to think, tho'.
Fine by me, except maybe for that last bit.:rolleyes:



P.S. If you need a partner...

Do you really mean that?? Because I think I probably will.......

[Lynn]

A thought occurred to me from this post of CeeCee's (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=197808&postcount=108) - it sounds like Frederico's class is fairly move-focussed, whereas the class Clive and I do is probably more technique-focussed.

You need both, of course, and neither is inherently "better" than the other; the key differentiator, as always, is how good the teacher is.

But I was wondering - are people generally learning in move-focussed or technique-focussed classes?After week 1 I might have said move - as she seemed to get us doing quite a lot in week 1 - but after week 2 - she didn't actually teach much more in the way of extra 'moves' but used what she was showing us to teach about technique. Two weeks probably isn't enough to tell though.

[David Bailey]

After week 1 I might have said move - as she seemed to get us doing quite a lot in week 1 - but after week 2 - she didn't actually teach much more in the way of extra 'moves' but used what she was showing us to teach about technique. Two weeks probably isn't enough to tell though.
I was told off last night by a (relatively) experienced Tango lady for not knowing the "Basic 8" step. Which, apparently, is "what everyone does". All I've learnt so far is walking, giros, ochos and crosses - should I know this 8 thingy? I was quite happy up until that point with my progress :sad:

Anyway, she demonstrated it to me, and it seemed fairly straightforward to me - a simple sequence: back, side, forward, lead a cross, then other side. I vaguely recall being shown this a few years ago, the last time I did a couple of lessons of AT.

But, I don't see why it's necessary - OK, you do all the basic elements, but isn't such a sequence contrary to the whole interpretation-based lead-and-follow nature of AT? If you know a cross is coming, where's the incentive to lead it?

Confused Of Finchley...

[Yogi_Bear]

It is common practice, certainly at the regular tango classes I have been to, not to teach the basic 8-count or salida or at least to do so reluctantly. The emphasis is normally on the elements you mention - walking, connection, forward and side steps, ochos, giros. The salida may be taught because learners expect it to be a part of their repertoire. At a one off tango class such as at a MJ weekender, you may well experience the sdalida as the first or a major part of a class. This is probably because it is a 'step' and hence in a form familiar to the modern jiver. The reason not to give it any prominence in tango classes is, I believe, that beginners frequently dance it too often and inappropriately...which maybe comes down to musical interpretation. And like much in tango, it can take a lot of effort to perfect.

[spindr]

I was told off last night by a (relatively) experienced Tango lady for not knowing the "Basic 8" step. Which, apparently, is "what everyone does". All I've learnt so far is walking, giros, ochos and crosses - should I know this 8 thingy? I was quite happy up until that point with my progress :sad:
As far as I can tell the salida (basic 8) is just a collection of elements that you need to learn pre-packaged into a convenient "move". Something like a tango "first move" -- I have a feeling one teacher suggested that it might be a relatively recent idea (1970's?) for teaching American tourists to "do AT" quickly??

One of the major problems with the basic 8 is the very first step backwards -- especially as you're not really supposed to "back up" when dancing in a milonga. If you have to dance a basic 8, then keep that first step very small.

The advantage to it is that the lady knows when to dance the cross, and the man doesn't have to lead it terribly well -- much more difficult to lead / follow a cross in freestyle. Oh and pre-packaged moves will interfere with your ability to improvise, musicality, etc.

Cheers,
SpinDr.

[Yogi_Bear]

As far as I can tell the salida (basic 8) is just a collection of elements that you need to learn pre-packaged into a convenient "move". Something like a tango "first move" -- I have a feeling one teacher suggested that it might be a relatively recent idea (1970's?) for teaching American tourists to "do AT" quickly??

One of the major problems with the basic 8 is the very first step backwards -- especially as you're not really supposed to "back up" when dancing in a milonga. If you have to dance a basic 8, then keep that first step very small.

The advantage to it is that the lady knows when to dance the cross, and the man doesn't have to lead it terribly well -- much more difficult to lead / follow a cross in freestyle. Oh and pre-packaged moves will interfere with your ability to improvise, musicality, etc.

Cheers,
SpinDr.
I agree - the MJ First Move is a good analogy. Yes, the 'problem' with the salida is that it is a 'move' which could be danced inappropriately. But it is a good way to give the MJ dancer an intro to the look and feel of tango. You can always dance it omitting the backward start, of course. The backward step should in any event be short. I have a feeling its origins are way before the 70s. It does enable the couple to enter the dance floor appropriately and progress anticlockwise...but here we are getting in too deep...

[Lynn]

I was told off last night by a (relatively) experienced Tango lady for not knowing the "Basic 8" step. Which, apparently, is "what everyone does". All I've learnt so far is walking, giros, ochos and crosses - should I know this 8 thingy? I was quite happy up until that point with my progress :sad:

Anyway, she demonstrated it to me, and it seemed fairly straightforward to me - a simple sequence: back, side, forward, lead a cross, then other side. I vaguely recall being shown this a few years ago, the last time I did a couple of lessons of AT.

But, I don't see why it's necessary - OK, you do all the basic elements, but isn't such a sequence contrary to the whole interpretation-based lead-and-follow nature of AT? If you know a cross is coming, where's the incentive to lead it?

Confused Of Finchley...We were taught the basic 8 on Friday but the teacher preceded the teaching of it by telling us it is rarely actually danced - she was using it as a tool to teach those basic elements you mentioned. She also spent time showing us how a cross is led and encouraged the leads to swap between the basic 8 and eg the basic 6 which started the same but doesn't have the cross so that the followers would have to follow what was being led.

I also recognised it from a class a couple of years ago.

Re the salida - which bit is the salida - I thought it was just the bit at the end of the basic 8? Isn't it Spanish for 'exit'?

[Yogi_Bear]

We were taught the basic 8 on Friday but the teacher preceded the teaching of it by telling us it is rarely actually danced - she was using it as a tool to teach those basic elements you mentioned. She also spent time showing us how a cross is led and encouraged the leads to swap between the basic 8 and eg the basic 6 which started the same but doesn't have the cross so that the followers would have to follow what was being led.

I also recognised it from a class a couple of years ago.

Re the salida - which bit is the salida - I thought it was just the bit at the end of the basic 8? Isn't it Spanish for 'exit'?

There are three parts in all
- the reverse start (retroceso)
- the salida (leader steps fwds, follower back)
- the closing finish (la resolucion)

[Lynn]

There are three parts in all
- the reverse start (retroceso)
- the salida (leader steps fwds, follower back)
- the closing finish (la resolucion)Thanks. Does the salida include the cross then?

[timbp]

I was told off last night by a (relatively) experienced Tango lady for not knowing the "Basic 8" step. Which, apparently, is "what everyone does".
Well, I've only had one casual AT class, so I have no idea what I'm talking about. The first class of my beginner course is tomorrow night.

But I have been reading various things on the Internet. My understanding is the basic 8 step is commonly taught because it uses the main things you need to know. However, because it is so commonly taught, people just learn to do it without extracting the individual parts it was intended to teach.

There are many posts on the internet from women complaining about men leading nothing but the basic 8. It appears you found the female equivalent of the men these women complain about.

[Yogi_Bear]

Thanks. Does the salida include the cross then?
Yes, that would be the last step of the salida. The leader would then normally lead a closing finish, but not necessarily, as other steps such as ochos could be led from the cross.

[Lynn]

Yes, that would be the last step of the salida. The leader would then normally lead a closing finish, but not necessarily, as other steps such as ochos could be led from the cross.Thank you, that helps me figure out which bit is which.

At the end of the class when we had the '2 dances into practica' I was dancing with a woman lead who mostly did the basic 8 over and over again. I did offer to stop as she had said she wanted to dance follow as well and the teacher was available for her to dance with, but she perservered through both tracks. I tried to follow but then she didn't lead the cross and then would stop and look down accusingly at my uncrossed feet, waiting for me to cross them before she moved on! I must ask the teacher to lead me into that next time so that I can recognise the lead into the cross.

[David Bailey]

Yes, that would be the last step of the salida. The leader would then normally lead a closing finish, but not necessarily, as other steps such as ochos could be led from the cross.
Thanks for all the information, everyone, I'm feeling slightly more cheerful now.


There are many posts on the internet from women complaining about men leading nothing but the basic 8. It appears you found the female equivalent of the men these women complain about.
Something like that, yes :rofl:

It's amazing how I always fall for this when I start to learn a new dance - the "they've been dancing for ages, they must know what they're talking about, and therefore I must be an idiot for assuming something different." syndrome. :rolleyes:

Does anyone else get this, or is it just me?

I should have realised, when she took me through the 8 step - I was trying to lead the cross - which, BTW, is pretty darned tricky - and she was just doing it whether I led it or not...

[frodo]

I was told off last night by a (relatively) experienced Tango lady for not knowing the "Basic 8" step. Which, apparently, is "what everyone does". All I've learnt so far is walking, giros, ochos and crosses - should I know this 8 thingy? I was quite happy up until that point with my progress :sad. ...
Pretty much everywhere I've been has taught this initially (except sometimes they miss out the first step), so can understand her point.

[LMC]

Second lesson tonight. Unfortunately, because it's basics, not beginners, there's no progression from week to week - so I shall definitely sign up for the arts depot beginners course as a "top up", even if I have progressed to intermediates by the time the arts depot next course starts in April/May.

Kicca is apparently in Buenos Aires and will be back next week. I'm sure Clive and DJ will want to burn the heretic, but a "regular" that I got chatting to tonight reckons that although K is the better dancer, Hamza is the better teacher.

First up: walking. This week concentrating on holding the frame whilst turning our chests from side to side - opposing the foot we were stepping onto. After about half the classes' shoulders rebelled - including mine - we partnered up and practised (or in my case learned then practised) box steps (from follower's POV, sideR, back, back, sideL) and cross steps (sideR, back, back-cross, back, sideL). I was quite proud of myself for being slightly ahead of the game by consciously making an effort to bring my feet together - Hamza made a big thing of heels together tonight, which I found quite easy on the box steps - but not so much on the next bits, for which I'm not even going to attempt to describe the footwork - a turn with a sandwiche (Hamza said something like mohita? -g'wan, laugh at the beginner) and 6-point turns.

I got told off for crossing my feet when I wasn't supposed to - MJ training creeping in! - so need to focus on pivoting and stepping separately (if that makes sense). I felt that the guys were frequently rushing the lead, which results in me losing connection. That could well be me being too slow - I'm not yet able to pick up the beat and dance at the same time! - need to listen to more tango tracks, suggestions gratefully received.

Hamza quote for this week: "(leaders) even if you have both eyes closed, keep one eye on your partner". Love it.

[Lynn]

and cross steps (sideR, back, back-cross, back, sideL).OK - that sounds to me like the salida with the closing finish - the 8 basic without the reverse step for the leader?

Haven't got my Scarborough details yet (due to a postal strike in Belfast:( ) but I've heard that there will be 4 AT workshops, so hopefully will learn something there and get a few tango dances.:clap:

[Lory]

Hamza quote for this week: "(leaders) even if you have both eyes closed, keep one eye on your partner". Love it.
:what: :rofl:

[LMC]

OK - that sounds to me like the salida with the closing finish - the 8 basic without the reverse step for the leader?
I think it might be, but would need a more expert opinion to check :blush:

Hamza has a fantastic sense of humour but hasn't given us many technical names of steps!

[Lynn]

Hamza has a fantastic sense of humour but hasn't given us many technical names of steps! Well, our teacher did tell us the move was called salida but I misunderstood which part she was talking about. :blush: (Though knowing salida means 'exit' is partly what caused me to misunderstand I think - I was paying attention!)


I think it might be, but would need a more expert opinion to check To expand for the follower what I'm referring to is side R, back L, back R, cross L, back R, side L. Only we started it with a forward L - that makes it the 8 count basic.

*Sits down again.* I need a bigger office.

As Lory said in the other thread - it is a bit 'blind leading the blind' on here!:rofl:

We need that Tango Problem Page thread...

[LMC]

That'ud be the one, except we didn't do the forward bit, as you pointed out. I wasn't sure if it was still called a salida without that forward step...

See, we can work it out together :clap:

[Lynn]

That'ud be the one, except we didn't do the forward bit, as you pointed out. I wasn't sure if it was still called a salida without that forward step... Nor did I but this helped...

There are three parts in all
- the reverse start (retroceso)
- the salida (leader steps fwds, follower back)
- the closing finish (la resolucion)

See, we can work it out together :clap: :yeah: The tango threads have been very helpful, and its nice to compare notes on different classes. :D

[DianaS]

Good idea for a thread. I'm hoping to start Tango classes on Sat lunchtimes at Leicester University soon, and have even found someone to practise with.
Where who CAN I COMEEEE!!!!

[timbp]

Had the first class of my beginner Tango course last night.

4 couples and 2 to 3 single guys in the class; no rotation. (beginner and improver classes simultaneously in the same room, one guy kept swapping between the two classes)

Started with walking forwards, then backwards. Then the same thing with a partner, follower's hands together on the leader's sternum to make the connection. Concentrating on leading from the point where the follower's hands were placed. We single guys paired up for this exercise, taking turns leading and following.

Then the embrace. Fairly open, almost exactly what is shown on the Jango
DVD.

Then the 8 step basic. Men and women were separately taught the footwork, then back to couples and practise for the rest of the class, with the instructor stopping every few minutes to explain a further point. We single guys took turns practising with the teacher.
A bit of discussion of weight transfer and ensuring the lady's weight is on the correct foot when you start. A bit on rotating the frame, isolated from the hips.

Not a lot of mention of lead and follow once we got into the 8 step basic. Occasional reminders to the ladies not to step until they are led, but I still think the couples were falling into the trap of just walking through the pattern, or of the girl leading when the guy forgot the pattern. That was one advantage of going as a single -- I got to practise with the teacher, who was not anticipating or leading.

At the end of the class I realised that although music had been playing most of the time I had hardly heard it, and hadn't danced to it at all. I was concentrating just on getting the connection and the walk.

[LMC]

A bit on rotating the frame, isolated from the hips.
:clap: - not covered in my Tuesday class, but some of it I "got" intuitively from other dance experience (particularly some of the fab workshops I've been on).

The follower *can* feel a cross-step lead if the frame rotation from the leader is correct - I closed my eyes a few times last night to improve my 'sensitivity' to the lead and there was a definite difference. The isolations are the tricky bit for most of us - including me :blush:

Where are you learning Tim?

[timbp]

Where are you learning Tim?
Sydney. www.clubdetango.com.au

I decided last year I wanted to try AT this year, and picked this school because they were close to where I lived, although I've now moved house so they're not as convenient as they would have been.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn on another Tango thread not far away
Sign up now for the Forum Tango Addiction Association. Membership involves posting on the various Tango threads, and the occasional TTD (Tango Thread Diversion) elsewhere.
This is a great idea Lynn, I’m definitely interested in joining the FTAA. I’ve hardly looked at another thread on the Forum since I discovered tango seventeen days ago, consequently, I’ve hardly got a clue what’s been going on. I’ve been too busy surfing the web for anything vaguely tango related, buying tango music, searching for the perfect tango shoes, moving furniture at home to practise steps, taking mirrors off the wall so I can see what my legs are doing and going to tango lessons.

My first classes were in North London so I posted on the Ballroom/Latin/Tango options in North London thread but now I’ve found super classes just minutes from where I live south of the river so I’m gonna hang out here and post on this thread with you guys.

Anyone else out there been to Federico's classes? They're held in venues from South London to Cumbria. I've enjoyed three of Federico’s classes at different venues on Saturday, Monday and last night, I like his style and it suits me. I understand that his style doesn’t suit everyone, frankly why should it? We are fortunate to have so many teachers and venues to chose from. (I know it would be grammatically more accurate to say ‘venues from which to chose’ but does anyone actually speak like that?)


Originally posted by DJ on the other thread I just mentioned
I've heard mixed reports of Frederico, but I'd like to give his classes a try.
Then you can decide for yourself right?
Mixed reports about a dance teacher? Nothing new there then.


Originally posted by LMC on the same thread as the last two quotes
Someone told me tonight that his Friday classes in Covent Garden are big on sequences and low on technique. Not attractive, but dunno 'til you try

Then you can decide for yourself right?

We are lucky to meet people who have been to other classes. I’ve heard that his Friday classes in Covent Garden are the best of all of his venues. I can’t comment cos I haven’t been.

Someone told me that they thought he was a bit flash. I’d be surprised and to be honest a tad disappointed if he wasn’t. As a dance teacher I expect him to have a big personality, works for me.

Federico’s classes are well attended by some pretty good dancers. I’m too new to this game to consider the level of their technical ability all I know is that the leaders I’ve met have been friendly, patient, helpful, courteous and interested in learning. The classes leave me inspired enough to want more and more and more.

[Lynn]

I’ve hardly looked at another thread on the Forum since I discovered tango seventeen days ago, consequently, I’ve hardly got a clue what’s been going on. I’ve been too busy surfing the web for anything vaguely tango related, buying tango music, searching for the perfect tango shoes, moving furniture at home to practise steps, taking mirrors off the wall so I can see what my legs are doing and going to tango lessons. Yep, sounds like you are in the first week or two of tango stage... all sounds familiar! Except the shoes bit...(Yes, I'm not thinking about buying more dance shoes. Yes, this is me posting. :what: )

I’m gonna hang out here and post on this thread with you guys.:clap:

[LMC]

... all I know is that the leaders I’ve met have been friendly, patient, helpful, courteous and interested in learning. The classes leave me inspired enough to want more and more and more.
That's all that really matters - I'm sold - when are we going? :D

[jivecat]

Where who CAN I COMEEEE!!!!


http://www.tangoloughborough.co.uk/Classes_Page.htm

There's a practica at the University at 12:30 to 2:00 on Saturday lunchtime and a class & milonga on Sunday eve at Market Harboro. I enjoyed both but have only been once or twice so far.

[LMC]

3rd lesson...

Not such a good night last night, but in a "dark before the dawn" kind of way - those frustrating moments when you *know* what you're supposed to be doing, but can you do it? Can you hell!

Started out with walking (of course). And more on hip isolation, described very well by Tim, above. I really have to focus to get that right, so it all tends to fall to pieces when I have a partner and I'm trying to concentrate on following as well!

Lots of work on barridas - unfortunately, no-one was really getting it (well, none of the leads I danced with + me, can't speak for the other followers), so although I "got" what was supposed to be happening from watching, I never really got the opportunity to practise. Shame.

Only had a couple of minutes with Hamza in the rotation and he pinpointed the problem of not 'isolating' correctly when I'm with a partner - when the lead's weight changes, the follower's foot 'searches' for a spot and then the weight changes. As Hamza put it "The lead is leading the feet" (not the upper body, which I was moving first and the feet following...).

The Hamza "gem" tonight was visual (no quotable quote unfortunately) - he was demonstrating how the lead can shift their weight, and to a casual observer, may not appear to be moving - and the follower still steps. Most impressive (and rather amusing watching the demo's feet moving out in all directions for no apparent reason :rofl: :blush: cruel that I am and just jealous that I didn't get more opportunity for practice with Hamza).

So my "take home" is really to think about body isolation. Oddly enough, it's something I've been thinking about for the last few weeks in MJ (as in "I really need to improve"). Expect some thread resurrections!

[timbp]

Second lesson

I was the only unpartnered person tonight.

Started again with the walking forwards and backwards, and the connection exercise.

Then a talk about how the 8 step is just a practise exercise, and in actual dancing you use whatever steps you want.

Then a revision demonstration of the 8 step. The teacher first asked me if I could remember it and lead her to demonstrate it. I tried, but although I could remember where to move, I forgot to think about how to move.:blush: As soon as my foot bumped hers she sent me back to the line, and just explained and demonstrated it alone.

We then spent some time practising the 8 step. Teacher seemed happy with my leading of it that time, and left me while she went off to help the people who were struggling. A couple of the other women came to practise with me.

Then we added a couple of ochos into the 8 step. The women were first taught how to do the ocho, then the men were taught where we should be stepping and how we should be moving our chest to lead this. Then we partnered up to practise. I found this difficult because it hadn't been demonstrated. Although I knew where I was supposed to step and which way to rotate my chest, I didn't have a picture of what I was actually supposed to be leading the lady to do. The first couple of women I practised with were anticipating/backleading. This helped me get a feel for where I was supposed to lead them (assuming they were trying to move where they were meant to go).

Eventually I got a turn with the teacher. First try didn't work at all -- because she followed what I led, instead of what we were meant to be practising! But that was enough to clarify what I was meant to be doing. Before she could say anything about what I'd done wrong, I led it again, and got it right.

I felt I was leading too much with my arms rather than chest, but the teacher didn't say anything about that, although I heard her mention it to someone else. I hope that as long as I'm aware that's a possible problem, it won't become a problem.

I still was concentrating too much on the connection and the movement to pay any attention to the music. So still not dancing.

Although I feel I'm picking this up without too much trouble (at this early stage), I don't think I would have got past this class if I hadn't had my ceroc experience and understanding of lead/follow.

[LMC]

... I don't think I would have got past this class if I hadn't had my ceroc experience and understanding of lead/follow.
I've been thinking the same.

On a difficulty scale of 1-10, if MJ is about 4, AT is about 37 I reckon :eek:

Lynn, we want to hear about your workshops! Please :flower:

[Msfab]

I've been thinking the same.

On a difficulty scale of 1-10, if MJ is about 4, AT is about 37 I reckon :eek:


Only 37!

Its does get better! Now when Im with it (everything is connected) its about 11 and when ive lost (brain/body block thing) its more like 50!:whistle:
But the satisfaction and euphoria after an '11' dance is definitely worth it!:clap:

[Lynn]

Tango at Scarborough (warning - long post!)

There were 4 progressive classes (2 each day) which was like a month of weekly classes only better as more concentrated. The initial class size was really too large - I suppose a lot of people wanted to see what AT was like - and of course to start properly you need to do lots of walking - not learn 'moves', so the numbers thinned out to more manageable levels as the classes went on.

The teachers were clearly more comfortable being on the floor in the middle of the class than on stage and they were able to do this from the second class onwards. (They couldn't have taught the more detailed footwork of the later classes from the stage anyway.) The numbers were almost balanced, only occasionally off when they told us to change partners - and it was still possible to learn a lot by observation when waiting.

Class 1 - walking (of course!) in pairs, women with hands on mans chest, a individual twisting exercise to introduce disassociation, and then back to walking, bringing in a side step as well.

Class 2 - they introduced the basic 8 step. Although I already knew this it was useful to practice it with different partners. They also did a demonstration dance :drool:

Class 3 - forward and backward ochos. Although I knew the basics of the women's footwork, I hadn't been sure of the lead for forward/backward - I didn't realise it was so straightforward! They reminded us of the twisting exercise in the first class for the woman to turn from the shoulders first. By this point the numbers were at a level when the teachers could walk round the class and help people where needed.

Class 4 - sandwich, from two different directions. This was completely new to me. What I liked was that they didn't just teach 'this is where the lady steps' but 'this is how to lead the lady to this direction and invite her to step here'. Not sure if I could follow this in freestyle yet but I would like to try.

General comments
I thought the teachers did an excellent job in getting people so far and at every stage they re-emphasised the lead from the chest and other basic principles. They were very approachable and helpful. Their method was to show us something, several times, from different angles, get us to pair up and practice while they observed, swap partners and they showed the step again with a few 'don't do this' illustrations on mistakes they had seen, then practice again.

My long experience of 2 weeks of classes (:rolleyes: !) and reading threads on here meant that I understood some concepts - this meant I was able to assist some partners who were even less experienced than me (eg I would wait for them to lead me, etc).

Then there were other leads who were much more experienced - they were so helpful in feedback and I learnt a lot dancing with them in the class :flower: - I could happily have danced for hours with some of them.

The Tango time in the blues room Sat night was just wonderful. Marc played a great range of tango music and I had some really :drool: dances. I know its not ettiquette to ask the men but I really wanted a dance with the teacher so I asked at the start 'can I have a dance at some point?' and then let him come and ask me. I would have been quite happy for that music to be on for another few hours - and I love blues so that's an indication of how much I'm falling in love with tango! Maybe it was because of the tango music on earlier but a few people were putting some tango into their blues and two people* led me in salida into ochos during dances. (*Viktor and Nigel, not that I'm name dropping!) Marc also played some tangoable tracks in his last set on Sun night but I only managed to find tango dancers for 2 of them (I had lovely dances to the others but I really wanted to be dancing tango!)

One thing that really crystallised for me this weekend was the waiting on one foot for the next lead in whatever direction. I think I did know this before but its becoming instinctive in my tango dancing now. For me it really reinforces the connection in tango.

I'm even more in love with Tango now. *sigh*

[Lynn]

Only had a couple of minutes with Hamza in the rotation and he pinpointed the problem of not 'isolating' correctly when I'm with a partner - when the lead's weight changes, the follower's foot 'searches' for a spot and then the weight changes. As Hamza put it "The lead is leading the feet" (not the upper body, which I was moving first and the feet following...).Ok - I'm getting confused now...in ochos I understood from classes at the weekend that the lead led (from the chest) the womans upper body to pivot and then the lower body and feet followed. But this sounds the complete opposite to what your teacher was saying. Is it different for different steps or have I misunderstood? (JonD, you back from hols yet? We need you on this thread!)


I felt I was leading too much with my arms rather than chest, but the teacher didn't say anything about that, although I heard her mention it to someone else. I hope that as long as I'm aware that's a possible problem, it won't become a problem. The teacher mentioned this several times at the weekend - not to lead with the arms for ochos -its probably an automatic thing to do if you are used to leading other dance styles with your arms. I think they got some people to try leading ochos with the woman having her hands on the man's chest and the man not using his arms at all.

[David Bailey]

Ok - I'm getting confused now...in ochos I understood from classes at the weekend that the lead led (from the chest) the womans upper body to pivot and then the lower body and feet followed. But this sounds the complete opposite to what your teacher was saying. Is it different for different steps or have I misunderstood?
I was wondering about that, too.

I've been taught to lead from the chest (or, OK, the belly in my case). And with ochos, it's definitely been taught to me as "head turns first, then shoulders, then finally feet" - the idea is that a pivot should follow naturally from the rest of the body having turned.

This is what the teachers have called "dissociation" - i.e. your top half is going one way and the bottom half takes a while to catch up with it.


(JonD, you back from hols yet? We need you on this thread!)
:yeah: - but I think he's still off enjoying himself, the heartless so-and-so...

So we're back in blind-leading-blind territory for now. :tears:

[LMC]

Re: confusion - I was suffering from this last night as well! - which is partly why I didn't post until this morning, and only posted then because I didn't want to 'forget'.

Having had another few hours to think (obsess) about it,

I THINK but could more than likely be totally wrong

what I'm talking about is about the weight change for the follower - for the leader, yes, absolutely, they lead from the chest. If the follower is stepping "straight" back/sideways/forwards, then the foot goes first, the rest follows. If a pivot is involved then I assume that the follower pivots, then steps, then shifts the weight. No idea if that makes sense to anyone but me and would be delighted if someone (Jon?) will correct me :)

[David Bailey]

what I'm talking about is about the weight change for the follower
I think (!) you're still wrong :flower:

From what little I understand, the idea is that the body drives the feet, but they don't all move at once - it doesn't matter whether you're moving forward or back, leader or follower.

So dissociation should be symmetrical - i.e. you're both kind of facing each other all the time no matter what your feet are doing... Classic example is an ocho exercise, when leader does forward ochos and follower does backwards (or vice versa); if you don't dissociate the same way it could all go horribly wrong, I think... :eek:

[Lynn]

If the follower is stepping "straight" back/sideways/forwards, then the foot goes first, the rest follows. That sounds like what my teacher here has been telling us for a step back - you reach back with your foot first, then transfer your weight back.

For the ochos then what DJ was saying fits with what I understood from the Scarborough workshops. The teacher got us to do an exercise where we turned head, then shoulders etc right down to feet, 'like a spiral staircase' to show us the basic disassociation, then later applied this for doing ochos.

So maybe it depends on what sort of movement you want the follow to do?

[LMC]

Lynn - thanks, you explained about the reaching better than I did.

Hamza also did a fantastically good explanation of the leader following the follower: the lead comes from the chest, the follower steps, then the leader steps into the space that's been created. I "got" that.


I think (!) you're still wrong :flower:

stuff, just up there ^^^

I'm not sure that the "issues" are the same here. Absolutely, the chests of leader and follower should be facing at all times. But I think you can (or should be able to) pivot without changing which foot your weight is on - and it's the weight change I'm talking about being "last". If I've understood Lynn correctly on the ochos, you turn from the head downwards, then step, then shift the weight onto the foot you stepped on. Of course, the problem is making all that happen faster than the time it takes to read it, let alone type it :sick:

Slo-mo tango anyone?

[Lynn]

Yes, thinking about it after I posted last, if you are talking about weight transfer that makes sense.


If I've understood Lynn correctly on the ochos, you turn from the head downwards, then step, then shift the weight onto the foot you stepped on. Then wait, on that foot for where to step/pivot next. That's of course assuming that I've understood it correctly!

Of course, the problem is making all that happen faster than the time it takes to read it, let alone type it :sick:

Slo-mo tango anyone?I've just been holding on to the bookcase in my office checking! :rofl:

Hmm, speaking of slo-mo - can anyone recommend any good tango DVDs?

[David Bailey]

Yes - sorry, I think we got confused over weight transfer (still a bit of a mystery to me) and dissociation (which I at least know how it should work)...


Slo-mo tango anyone?
Blimey, that's the only speed I can do now anyway :blush:

[RogerR]

Has anyone been to the tango session at the London Welsh Centre, Greys Inn Road, recently?

[frodo]

Has anyone been to the tango session at the London Welsh Centre, Greys Inn Road, recently?
No, but would also be interested in what it looks like at the moment.

Compared to numbers described in some of these threads they seemed to have relatively decent numbers, and I thought the emphasis on safety in the class was very good.

It also seemed the sort of place it is fairly easy to turn up on your own, rather than having to get a group together.

[LMC]

I'd also be interested, as it's walking distance from the office. Weblink http://www.tangowithflavio.co.uk/links.html

[Msfab]

I'd also be interested, as it's walking distance from the office. Weblink http://www.tangowithflavio.co.uk/links.html

I know of a couple that have tried his class in Guildford. They tell me hes less about technique and more about moves. But they are really enjoying the classes. I hope to get down there soon and see for myself.

[Lynn]

Grump, grump, grump :(

Just heard there will be a tango social event in NI - when I am away at Storm! :tears:

Ah well, hopefully bodes well for more in the future.

[CeeCee]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear, I must be doomed.

The more people tell me not to go to Federico's classes the more I'm intrigued.
Why am I enjoying them so much?
Why does it matter?
Why are some people telling me not to go when they've never been themselves?
During the weekend five people told me not to go to his classes.

So guess what I did on Monday?

I went to another tango class in Fulham, run by Federico. It was brilliant. Super people, huge dance studio, friendly atmosphere, great music. I’ve been totally taken in by his charm and quirky sense of humour so he still gets my vote.

With 18 women and 7 men there were no fixed couples and lots of moving around. No he doesn't spend an hour on one move because that is not his style. He makes passing comments about technique without lots stressing any points. I guess it's up to us, we can take it or leave it.

He inspires me though so I guess I'll go again.

At the class I bought Gotan Project’s latest album, Inspiracion-Espiracion and it’s awesome. I’m totally in love with track number 4 Confianzas and I’m just playing on repeat because it just oozes…

[David Bailey]

Here's some good news for Kev F:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4701996.stm

:innocent:

[DianaS]

Just had my first AT class in Birmingham and will just have to pour it all out.
It was a cafe bar in the front very mediteranean looking and quaint. Walk through the back door and its a sprung floor mirror wall and barrs.
I warmed up feeling nervous. The women were one side of the room the men another. It was a beginners class, and it was the second week.

We learned to walk. First forwards then backwards My high heels wobbled as my core lifted, my cosix sank, and my kneeds struggled to find each other. Not so elegant was my reflection, but the teacher kindly corrected me. It looks as though I'll be ironing and hoovering in my heels to get adjusted to the height:blush:
Then we learnt swirls with our feet balancing on one we move the other forwards, sideways and backwards. It felt excuisite. Then we slide forwards, stop one one foot turned our selves and slide the other making our way across the room. One lady didn't manage she was corrected and we continued.
Later we were paired to lead and follow, weight tipped forwards, finger tips on our partners chest. An elderly gentleman put me at my ease as me moved slowly across the floor. Without noticing it we became closer, he commented teasing me,
there was a quiet moment of laughter

We were shown a sequence with a right right cross.
I struggled using other latin steps unconsciously ,until again I was corrected and again, and yet again untill I followed and the teacher looked at a glance and said yes.

The music was much to my taste, the other dancers quiet composed and hardworking and no one all night demanded I smile, but the smile was there hovering around my lips. It is a very beautiful dance.

[Lynn]

Just had my first AT class in Birmingham and will just have to pour it all out. Sounds like it was a good class. Thanks for posting. I think its great that so many of us are learning at the same time in different places, comparing classes, sharing the discovery of tango.

It is a very beautiful dance.Isn't it...
I'm making up for having no class tonight (1/2 term, yeah I thought it was early too) by listening to Tango music.:drool:

[RogerR]

http://www.tangoalfresco.com/

There will be some Tango parties in Regents Park this summer. Jill Barret (mentioned in the Linked page) is a friend of mine and teaches tango.

Shall we form a group to book Jill for classes and then go to Tango Al Fresco? we would need 20 plus people. Say a few sundays 12 - 4 then go to Regents Park on the last one for a dance

[Lory]

http://www.tangoalfresco.com/


The little video clip on there is definitely worth a look, it's lovely! :drool:

[CeeCee]

originally posted by Lory

Originally Posted by RogerR
http://www.tangoalfresco.com/


The little video clip on there is definitely worth a look, it's lovely!

No kidding, it's great!
As soon as I started watching it, my heart starting racing and now I'm still tingling.

Great idea Roger to organise a group, I'm definitely interested, so count me in.

[Clive Long]

No kidding, it's great!
As soon as I started watching it, my heart starting racing and now I'm still tingling.

My reaction too!

I started dancing round the lounge as I listened to the music thinking I can do this dance.


Great idea Roger to organise a group, I'm definitely interested, so count me in.

Count me in too. I missed it last year :(

Also when am I going to have my Grays Inn Road baptism?

CRL

[Lory]

No kidding, it's great!
As soon as I started watching it, my heart starting racing and now I'm still tingling.


Kele is mine and Kev's regular teacher and guess who layed that new floor :wink: Yes, 'twas Kev! :worthy: :waycool: :nice:

[RogerR]

OK To organise this I need 10 men and 10 women to commit to 6 summer sundays about 12 or 1pm start for a few (say 2 - 4 hours each time) leading up to going to Tango Al Fresco as a passing out practica/milonga. Oh and Franck's approval to promote this here, please.

PMs asap to judge interest at about £80 each all in, up front!

Rotating class, Some dance experience but no tango experience necessary.

[Kev F]

Our first tango workshop - Working with the Embrace.

Class objective:
A class designed to develop a flexible and adapting embrace to accommodate all moves using close, open & broken embrace.

Teacher:
Pablo Di giorgio, an alleged Buenos Aires tango master.

Lory and i decided to engage on this embrace workshop for three reasons:

To enable us some success in the closer embraced holds.


Our curiosity to see the authentic tango masters method of teaching


To save poor Lorys toes which I keep treading on.:blush:


We arrived a few minutes early as the last class was dispersing. They looked lively and refreshed by their new found knowledge and I could hear the crossfire from new arrivals questioning if the Pablo legends were true.

We entered the class to see a portly man in his fifties resembling a cross between Inspector Clouseau and Hercule Poirot. Ladies were instructed to remove their shoes by Liz, his assistant, so they could feel the earth. I could already hear the faint girlish giggles from Lory who was hiding behind me.

Pablo English was a little broken but perfectly understandable. We immediately engaged in the warm up. A whole array of body isolations ensued. As we progressed with the warm up the exercises became more and more tricky. (very similar to patting your head and rubbing your tummy) Both Lory and I were told off for doing it wrong and I resisted the temptation to look around incase she started laughing.

One hour later and after about sixty warm ups we were apparently ready for learning. Without going into minute detail the objective was to lead your partner by intention. We led our partners from a distance of up to fifteen feet (yes fifteen feet) and gradually closed the gap. The close embace was developed then fine tuned and we used the intention to lead with varying combinations of contact from just chest contact to full hold. The opening out of the chest and the closeness our our two hearts assisted with the close embrace posture:blush: This was a rotating class so it was interesting to try it with other people.

In summary, I initially thought Pablo was a bit cuckoo. But his method of teaching did achieve the objective by the end. Lory danced three tangos with Pablo and he obviously led very well. She said he was very easy to dance with and that he was focused on centerings her and balancing her through every second of the dance. He was not a big flashy tango dancer and the subtleties were very interesting. It was just about treating the follower as if she were made of glass and maintaining her every position with a real delicacy of dance to avoid her breaking.

I must admit that Pablo didn't exactly excite me to watch nor did he make the women gasp with excitement, but what he gave was totally devotion and care to her every step and i believe this is what makes a good tango dancer.

[philsmove]

Just came across this

What Women Want and What Men Want in Tango (http://www.gainesvilletango.org/What-Women-Want-and-What-Men-Want-in-Tango.htm)

[CeeCee]

Wow all this sharing is great isn’t it?


Originally posted by DianaS
Just had my first AT class in Birmingham …
Well done Diana, I enjoyed reading your post and felt quite moved by your descriptions, feelings and emotions.

Originally posted by Kev F
It was just about treating the follower as if she were made of glass and maintaining her every position with a real delicacy of dance to avoid her breaking.
Super post and this glass analogy is interesting.


Originally posted by Philsmove
Just came across this

What Women Want and What Men Want in Tango
Fascinating reading!

[Lory]

Both Lory and I were told off ...

I have to paint the picture here... there was Kev and I dressed for a Friday night out:waycool: (me in a dress) and suddenly we were standing there in our socks, which at the time, for some reason, I found extremely amusing. :blush:

We started off by simply moving our heads, then our hands, arms, toes, hips, chests and knees (FLEXION KEVIN, MORE FLEXION, MORE FLEXION..MORE MORE MORE!! :devil: :whistle: ) then we had to do bizarre movements, which culminated in us walking round the room, resembling a load of chickens.. to top it off, the music suddenly broke into cuckoo noises:what: .. which nearly finished me off completely.:rofl:

We then progressed into the larger hall and was allowed to put our shoes back on and pair up. We had a few minutes where Pablo came round to us individually and placed each couple into the close embrace, he checked everything and gave personal pointers.

Then we swapped partners and we had to spend a whole track walking round the room, no touching allowed but instead, maintaining the same distance and looking/glaring into our partners eyes, which is quite disconcerting if you've never even met the person before.:eek: :blush:

Pablo pulled to few ladies out individually to demonstrate things, I was one of the 'lucky' ones, I had to follow his body movements, but not look at his body, just into his eyes (I'm not sure if he was boss eyed but I could swear he was staring at my boobs:confused: ) At which point I giggled and yes, I got told off again! :rolleyes: He asked, are you laughing at me? or dancing with me?:cool: :blush:

My summing up is, we did 'get it' in the end but I think we could have got 'it' with a lot less of the drama and passion but then again, it's
TANGO:wink:

The rest of the evening was lovely, and the lesson seemed to make more and more sense, as the evening went on. :drool:

[DianaS]

Lo-ry What are you like???
:kiss:

[CeeCee]

originally posted by Lory
then we had to do bizarre movements, which culminated in us walking round the room, resembling a load of chickens.. to top it off, the music suddenly broke into cuckoo noises
ahh the humiliation we endure in the name of dancing. I think you’re both very brave because I’d have probably left the workshop by then.

My journey along the path to Tango fulfilment continues.

Tonight I went to the beginners’ class at The Diorama Arts Centre, Regents Place, Euston, London NW1 run by Oktavian of Tango London www.Tangoinlondon.net. Unlike my unfortunate Piccadilly experience, this one was easy to find and parking was hassle free.

I was so impressed by the website, lots of yummy Tango stuff to read and savour, that I thought I’d give the Oktango class a try (also thought it might help to wean me off Federico’s classes).

When I arrived Oktavian was chatting with pupils about his dance career. He seemed very happy to talk about himself! He’s from Romania, has been dancing AT for four years and teaches other dances, which he demonstrated. They involved jumping, kicking and boot slapping and one of the ladies thought he was Morris dancing.

There were 16 women and 12 men, with no fixed couples. After a few exercises, our beginner Level 1 class concentrated on weight transference, arm tension and lots of bumping into each other, yes lots. His Level 1 and Level 2 classes take place in the same room and it was 'cosy' to say the least. For the second hour we had Yvonne and Gerald who taught us the Salida, which seems to bear an uncanny resemblance to the Basic 8. Yvonne also showed us the conita, which means little cross and is a cheeky little foot slotting move which I liked a lot.

There was no mention on the website of dancing on carpet (!) so as I value my knees and ankles, I won't be making this venue a regular haunt. However, I’ll definitely be going again next week because (err, how shall I put this) Oktavian sure knows how to turn on the charm…

[timbp]

Third lesson

Started as always with walking, forwards then backwards. The teacher then gave some more tips on getting it to look natural, smooth, relaxed.

Then we stood with weight on one foot (on the ball of the foot, knee slightly flexed) and moved the other foot forwards and backwards, with appropriate contra motion of the shoulders. Then started moving it forward, side, back -- ensuring we brought ankles together every time. Then from one side step, we changed our weight across -- aiming to have head remain completely level, with no rise and fall.

Connection exercise as usual. Then a quick revision of the basic 8 and the forward ochos. For the first time we were told about the direction of the dance (anticlockwise), and then we had several songs during which to practise.

Again, as one of the two unpartnered guys, I did most of my dancing with the pretty young female teacher. Who was very picky about technical points. (Which is a good thing, of course.) In fact, I got the impression she was bringing up more technical points with me than she normally would for someone in their third week. There was another couple she went into similar detail with, but for most people she was just helping them get the basic step.

Then we started on backwards ochos. First a demonstration and some explanation of the lead. In particular, explanation and demonstration of rotating the chest about its centre to rotate the girl about her centre. And rotating the chest does not include rotating the hips!

Useful tip for the guys to help the girls learn to follow the guy's chest. Replace the second or third button on your shirt with a large diamond stud. Your partner will then focus on the centre of your chest, and follow you everywhere. :)

We then split into male and female groups to learn and practise our separate parts, then paired up to practise together. this was the step I've had most trouble with. First, I kept forgetting a particular weight change, so I was often moving on the wrong foot as I led the girl into the first backward ocho. Second, I have a spine and muscles and skin that connect my shoulders to my hips -- so when I turn my chest, my hips also turn. I received two main comments from the teacher alternately: "you need to rotate your shoulders more", "Don't rotate your hips", "you need to rotate your shoulders more", "Don't rotate your hips"...

Towards the end of the class I had a short practice with another woman who's been doing tango for several years. I commented on how much I had to concentrate. Her reply: "That's the real reason nobody ever smiles in tango."

At this stage I can't imagine ever being able to actually dance tango properly. But I'm irremediably hooked on tango.

[Lynn]

There was no mention on the website of dancing on carpet (!) so as I value my knees and ankles, I won't be making this venue a regular haunt. Dancing on carpet, not great - though not so bad for tango as MJ, I guess.
However, I’ll definitely be going again next week because (err, how shall I put this) Oktavian sure knows how to turn on the charm…:rofl:

I noticed on their website one of the atributes of a good follower - 'Wait for the lead for the cross'! So my current obession of how a cross is led and waiting for the lead isn't that crazy after all perhaps! (Was even trying to work it out at the Katie Melua concert on Mon night!:rofl: )

[David Bailey]

Towards the end of the class I had a short practice with another woman who's been doing tango for several years. I commented on how much I had to concentrate. Her reply: "That's the real reason nobody ever smiles in tango."
:rofl:
God - that's just so true! :blush:

I know I've probably got an intense look of concentration on my face when I dance it...

[timbp]

I noticed on their website one of the atributes of a good follower - 'Wait for the lead for the cross'! So my current obession of how a cross is led and waiting for the lead isn't that crazy after all perhaps! (Was even trying to work it out at the Katie Melua concert on Mon night!:rofl: )
How to lead the cross was one of the points the teacher was emphasising with me last night.

She also said that a lot of people don't teach lead/follow for the cross -- it gets taught as a set pattern, so because of this I'll find many women just going into the cross whether I lead it or not.

That was when I became convinced I had found the best people to learn from.

[philsmove]

There was no mention on the website of dancing on carpet…


Some of us have to make do with cobbles

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1146652503208054852&q=tango

:rofl:

[Lynn]

How to lead the cross was one of the points the teacher was emphasising with me last night.. I know this in theory but need to go over it in practice with a partner - hoping to be able to do this tomorrow night. When I try to 'lead' myself with a slight upper body turn (to reflect the upper body lead of the man) I must be doing it too late as my foot crosses OK - but behind!

She also said that a lot of people don't teach lead/follow for the cross -- it gets taught as a set pattern, so because of this I'll find many women just going into the cross whether I lead it or not. This would explain why several people I danced with (who have learnt in different places) have told me things like 'there is no lead for the cross' or 'the man just allows some space and the lady crosses'...

And the night our teacher taught it I ended up practicing it with a woman who didn't lead it but who would just stop and look pointedly at my uncrossed feet and refuse to move on until I had crossed them.

But I'm not going to cross until I'm led!

OK, I'll stop obessing about this - as soon as I get one good lead into a cross so that I know what it should feel like.

I was so desperate for a Tango dance that after a ceroc dance last night I did a little bit of Tango (to completely unsuitable music :blush: ) then back into ceroc!

[timbp]

I know this in theory but need to go over it in practice with a partner - hoping to be able to do this tomorrow night. When I try to 'lead' myself with a slight upper body turn (to reflect the upper body lead of the man) I must be doing it too late as my foot crosses OK - but behind!

This is what I expect when I think about it. I am leading the girl to step backwards, and when I turn to my left (actually straightening up from being turned to my right) I expect her free foot to go behind and cross, probably because I expect the turn to take the foot out (something like centrifugal force) and when it comes in it will be behind the pivot point (the fixed leg).
But if I really concentrate, I can visualise the lead/follow to make the cross in front.

Are you taught "two tracks, one track"? Think of floorboards (if they're wide enough for your foot and run in the direction you want to move).
We are taught that the entire dance is on two parallel tracks (adjacent floorboards). For a basic walk, both man and woman are stepping with one foot on each track. Think of two adjacent floorboards, one foot on each.

The basic 8 step (salida?) starts with the man stepping back (2 tracks). Then the man steps to the left, going from 2 tracks to 1. From here, the 2 forward steps are still on 2 tracks, but the man is walking on 1 track and the woman is walking on the other (to the man's right). So the man is walking on one floorboard, the woman on the next floorboard. At the cross the man leads the woman back to 2 tracks, but as her weight is on (her point of view) the right foot on the left track, the only way to go back to 2 tracks is to put her left foot on the right track -- CROSS!

And as for in front or behind -- I think that has to depend on when the guy provides the lead. But obviously if the guy leads it wrongly and thinks you've crossed in front, you're in trouble unless you know some way to pass one leg through another.

[LMC]

Obviously, I don't know what the lead is actually doing to make the cross happen, but it *feels* like a 'twitch' (!) - it's as if there's a very subtle lead for me to step forward on my left foot then as soon as I lift that foot, the lead is "no, actually, go back and right" - which given that my left foot is the one that is stepping, gives me no choice but to cross. Maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture here, because I don't seem to be having too many problems with the crosses - although, like Lynn, I won't follow it if it isn't led.

It's just everything else that I haven't worked out yet... can't wait until next Tuesday, I have missed tango this week.

[Lynn]

This is what I expect when I think about it. I am leading the girl to step backwards, and when I turn to my left (actually straightening up from being turned to my right) I expect her free foot to go behind and cross, probably because I expect the turn to take the foot out (something like centrifugal force) and when it comes in it will be behind the pivot point (the fixed leg). This is just me trying it at home, imagining that slight turn and seeing what it does to my feet if I don't think about it. But of course I can't actually lead myself!

And as for in front or behind -- I think that has to depend on when the guy provides the lead. But obviously if the guy leads it wrongly and thinks you've crossed in front, you're in trouble unless you know some way to pass one leg through another.If I'm with a partner, I know the cross should be in front so that's what I'll do. The problem was more there being no lead for the cross, it was just expected as it was in the sequence of steps being taught. (I have to add this is despite the teacher telling the leads to make sure they vary the steps, don't just go over the same sequence, women make sure they are following etc... but people seem to like to learn and practice patterns.)

[Lynn]

Maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture here, because I don't seem to be having too many problems with the crosses - although, like Lynn, I won't follow it if it isn't led. Yeah, I know I'm obsessing about this at the moment, sorry, my own fault for having asked various leads 'is there a lead for this?'. And not being led it, most of the time. I have been led it in the milonga time at Scarborough but I was in 'follow and flow' mode, not trying to think about steps too much. The connection is king when I'm like that and I'm not actually consciously thinking about what I'm doing too much!

It's just everything else that I haven't worked out yet... can't wait until next Tuesday, I have missed tango this week.I hope your evening was worth missing tango...:whistle: :flower:

[LMC]

Yeah, I know I'm obsessing about this at the moment, sorry, my own fault for having asked various leads 'is there a lead for this?'.
Nah, is not a problem, except me now being paranoid and wondering if I'm missing something :rofl: - I just know I get obsessed with things too :hug:

[timbp]

Obviously, I don't know what the lead is actually doing to make the cross happen

What I've been taught (or what I understand from what my teachers have tried to teach me)

Basic 8 step (from the man/lead point of view)

Step back right. Both partners on 2 tracks (i.e. man's left foot and woman's right foot on one (the same) floorboard; man's right foot and woman's left foot on the adjacent floorboard).

Step left turning chest towards the right. This shortens the woman's step.
Result is man's left foot on one track (left track from man's view), woman's right foot on the other track (right track).

Man walks forward on one (left) track; woman walks backward on one (right) track. Man's chest is turned towards the right to place the lady on the right track while man walks on the left track. Hips face ahead as that is the direction of movement.

For the cross, the man turns his chest to the front, going back to 2 tracks. This leads the woman back to 2 tracks, but her weight is on her right foot on the right track (her left track). So for her to step her left foot onto the other track, she must cross. But as I said earlier, I can't see anything other than the timing of the lead that would indicate whether the cross is in front or behind.

[JonD]

I'm about 2 weeks behind on this thread and haven't had a chance to catch up yet so forgive me for commenting before I've read all the posts.

I find partners who "cross on 5" without the cross being led a bit irritating - sometimes I like to take several steps outside to the left and it's a bit disconcerting when your partner suddenly crosses out of the blue.

A cross is, as far as I'm aware, always in front if the lady is walking backwards. The timing of the lead is critical as if it's too late the ladies working leg will have passed her standing leg and so she will simply step behind.


For the cross, the man turns his chest to the front
I've found that this movement is much clearer if you make sure you really disassociate when you are walking outside so that there is a clear movement when you come back in line. So often we think we're disassociating but we've not actually turned our upper body very far. (Video is a useful thing!) I think about ensuring that my thighs touch as I step forward on my right - as you step forward feel your right thigh come into contact with your left thigh then, as you lead the cross by coming back in line, you can feel that pressure ease. Well, it helps me! (Once you're happy, try leading a cross the other way - walk outside to the right and lead your partner to cross right in front of left. It's a good way of working on the lead and gives you some interesting options - plus it's less usual to work on the closed side of the embrace and so surprises your partner).

Julie and I spent an hour walking through the first minute of her 5 minute routine this week. She's done a fab job on the choreography but it's going to be hard work learning it. We're going to practice for 12 hours over the weekend and I hope I'll have it all in my head by the end. Then I've got to start dancing it rather than just "marking" it!

[Lynn]

I find partners who "cross on 5" without the cross being led a bit irritating - sometimes I like to take several steps outside to the left and it's a bit disconcerting when your partner suddenly crosses out of the blue. Thank you! :hug: And to other posts on this thread - I don't feel bad now about not crossing unless led, despite the 'you just should cross at this part' attitude I've had from some partners.

A cross is, as far as I'm aware, always in front if the lady is walking backwards. The timing of the lead is critical as if it's too late the ladies working leg will have passed her standing leg and so she will simply step behind. Oh, that's also really useful. My own working it out in the living room by myself seemed to suggest that - I was trying to 'lead' myself to cross to see what my feet did and this was what was happening. I knew it was because I was trying to work it out myself but I did wonder if it meant that the timing of the lead had anything to do with it. (I so would love a tango dance partner to practice all these things with!)

Julie and I spent an hour walking through the first minute of her 5 minute routine this week. She's done a fab job on the choreography but it's going to be hard work learning it. We're going to practice for 12 hours over the weekend and I hope I'll have it all in my head by the end. Then I've got to start dancing it rather than just "marking" it!:respect: * :worthy:

Maybe you and Julie could show us at Southport in June at the milonga time? :flower:



*I like the new smilie but does anyone else get a twinge of wanting to correct the spelling when they use it? Or is that just me?

[Yogi_Bear]

That'ud be the one, except we didn't do the forward bit, as you pointed out. I wasn't sure if it was still called a salida without that forward step...

See, we can work it out together :clap:
The salida can be initiated by
(a) the reverse start (leader steps back right)
(b) side step (leader steps right,then left)
(c) stepping forwards on the right without either a side or back step
It shouldn't matter to the follower - you just follow the lead...

[Yogi_Bear]

Thank you! :hug: And to other posts on this thread - I don't feel bad now about not crossing unless led, despite the 'you just should cross at this part' attitude I've had from some partners.
Oh, that's also really useful. My own working it out in the living room by myself seemed to suggest that - I was trying to 'lead' myself to cross to see what my feet did and this was what was happening. I knew it was because I was trying to work it out myself but I did wonder if it meant that the timing of the lead had anything to do with it. (I so would love a tango dance partner to practice all these things with!)
:respect: * :worthy:

Maybe you and Julie could show us at Southport in June at the milonga time? :flower:




*I like the new smilie but does anyone else get a twinge of wanting to correct the spelling when they use it? Or is that just me?

Well if the steps are led correctly you should cross naturally - or else you would end off balance and possibly falling over. It's the lead's job to make sure you do that....

[Lynn]

Well if the steps are led correctly you should cross naturally - or else you would end off balance and possibly falling over. It's the lead's job to make sure you do that....What, possibly fall over? :wink: Oh, I've danced with some leads like that!

(Sorry YB, couldn't resist it!).

Tango class tonight! :clap:

[Yogi_Bear]

What, possibly fall over? :wink: Oh, I've danced with some leads like that!

(Sorry YB, couldn't resist it!).

Tango class tonight! :clap:
It's good to have all this detailed tango feedback on the Forum - I really must find time to read all of this thread. I think tangueros need to have an 'I can tango' badge or something at MJ events as I'm usually trying to find someone when suitable music comes on....:D

[philsmove]

I find partners who "cross on 5" without the cross being led a bit irritating - !:flower:

From what I have been taught

The follower must follow and should not initiate the cross
If however the follower crosses when one was not led
Or does not cross when one was intended
It up to the leader to sort it out
The etiquette is quite clear - any mistakes are the leaders fault

Getting irritated is a complete no no

Of the three classes I attend only one uses the basic 8

So no one gets into “a routine” leaders are encouraged to vary the their steps as much as possible

[LMC]

Well if the steps are led correctly you should cross naturally - or else you would end off balance and possibly falling over.
:yeah: - if a cross is led well, you really don't have a "choice".


I think tangueros need to have an 'I can tango' badge or something at MJ events as I'm usually trying to find someone when suitable music comes on....:D
Unfortunately, that'ud get me sued under the Trades Descriptions Act. Howzabout "Ask me to tango" :D?

[Lynn]

It's good to have all this detailed tango feedback on the Forum - I really must find time to read all of this thread. I think tangueros need to have an 'I can tango' badge or something at MJ events as I'm usually trying to find someone when suitable music comes on....:DOr maybe a secret signal...:rofl:

I know what you mean. Fortunately due to there being 4 tango classes at Scarborough I was able to identify some of the tango dancers and rush to grab one when suitable music came on. I wasn't always fast enough though. :(

Having been listening to Tango music a lot recently, I was so frustrated at there being a fellow tango beginner at ceroc this week that after a MJ dance we did a little bit of tango - despite the music not being very suitable!


Unfortunately, that'ud get me sued under the Trades Descriptions Act. Howzabout "Ask me to tango" :D? :yeah:

[spindr]

Or maybe a secret signal...:rofl:
You mean you haven't been told it :devil:

SpinDr

P.S. Try drawing a lapiz (pencil) when you have time / space when dancing -- and see whether the leader notices :)

[JonD]

Getting irritated is a complete no no
You're dead right Phil - and on the rare occasions that it happens I hope I don't let my irritation show. It's a bit like backleading or bouncing though - something that you haven't led, that adds nothing to the dance and just kind of "steams through your lead".


as you step forward feel your right thigh come into contact with your left thigh then, as you lead the cross by coming back in line, you can feel that pressure ease
Sorry, I just figured out that we were talking Salida and the above only works when you're on opposite feet. I think it's still true though, if you are conscious of your thighs touching when you step forward right then you'll be disassociated enough to make the cross lead clear on the next step on your left.


Well if the steps are led correctly you should cross naturally - or else you would end off balance and possibly falling over. It's the lead's job to make sure you do that....
You've been watching me! I did once trip a partner up and have to catch her to stop her ending in a heap on the floor. Fortunately she saw the funny side and we ended up in fits of laughter - but it wasn't very AT.


Try drawing a lapiz (pencil) when you have time / space when dancing -- and see whether the leader notices
Great idea - the "Lapiz Club"!

[Lory]

I was so frustrated at there being a fellow tango beginner at ceroc this week that after a MJ dance we did a little bit of tango - despite the music not being very suitable!

:yeah:
Kev f is the master of this :respect: he can sling a bit of Tango in just about anytime and anywhere, without warning! :eek: :rofl:

[Lynn]

Kev f is the master of this :respect: he can sling a bit of Tango in just about anytime and anywhere, without warning! :eek: :rofl:Looking forward to my next dance with Kev F then! :grin:

[philsmove]

on the rare occasions that it happens I hope I don't let my irritation show. !
:blush:

Only seen you get irritated once
“10 Euros for a small carafe of plonk":mad:

[timbp]

If however the follower crosses when one was not led
Or does not cross when one was intended
It up to the leader to sort it out

This brought to mind a problem I had in my last class (not at all a result of the woman not following properly).

I had been walking through the basic 8 with the teacher, and had just led her into the cross when I realised (a little late, I know) that another couple was in the way, and another couple very close on my left. I just paused, waiting for the couple ahead of me to move on, but they came out of the embrace and stood there talking about what they had been doing.

the only place available for me to move was to my right. But I looked at my partners feet (in the cross) and thought there is no way I can get her to step to my right. So I broke out of the embrace, and the teacher complimented me on not running her into the couple behind, and on how clearly I led the pause.

Since then I've worked out how I could have danced out of that position.
The main lesson to me is that I'm both a beginner and not. I had the floorcraft to know what the problem was, and where I needed to move. But I didnt' have the tango knowledge to dance the solution.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn
I noticed on their website one of the atributes of a good follower - 'Wait for the lead for the cross'! So my current obession of how a cross is led and waiting for the lead isn't that crazy after all perhaps!
No not crazy at all Lynn, I agree with you

Originally posted by LMC
I don't know what the lead is actually doing to make the cross happen, but it *feels* like a 'twitch' (!)
A guy told me at a milonga that I had to watch out for him to ‘twitch’ because that was his lead for me to do a cross.

Other leaders have told me that the lead for the cross is when he lifts me (!) or when he dips his shoulders (!) or when he winks at me (!) or when he leans to the side (!) or when he stops dancing and looks at my feet (!)
Luckily this advice didn’t come from the same source.



Originally posted by Lynn
who would just stop and look pointedly at my uncrossed feet and refuse to move on until I had crossed them.
Another guy at a class did just that too, he told me that when he stops and looks at my feet, it is the signal for me to cross.

Originally posted by Lynn
The problem was more there being no lead for the cross, it was just expected as it was in the sequence of steps being taught.
Yep!

Originally posted by timbp
She also said that a lot of people don't teach lead/follow for the cross -- it gets taught as a set pattern,
Yep! It seems that way at the moment because we are all new but our lovely leaders have to start somewhere and they are learning where to put the cross in a set of moves, in time they will be able to lead us into it and we'll be able to follow it, then yippee!

All this learning is great fun isn’t it?

[LMC]

:rofl: Cee Cee - conflicting advice or what :what:

Timbp's description of the lead makes sense - but to me as an inexperienced follower, it still feels like a twitch :D I did notice that I was only able to follow the cross from experienced leads - and as we are beginners, we're dancing mainly with beginners in classes, so let's not be too hard on ourselves (mentioning no names Lynn :hug: )

[JonD]

Hmm, speaking of slo-mo - can anyone recommend any good tango DVDs?
Julie and I bought an excellent one in BsAs and I've just found the web site - Tango Estilo del Centro (http://www.tangoestilodelcentro.com/principal_en.html). There is a "class on-line" that gives an idea of the DVD and it's worth looking at - the DVD has loads of similar sections.

The more we look at the DVD the more we find in it; there are tons and tons and tons of figures to play with, presented in the same way as the on-line class. Tips on basic technique come out in those rather than in a distinct section. If you slow it down by x32 you can really see what they are doing and wonder at it! Julie has trawled through and stolen some figures for this damn display that I'm dreading so much. I'm not sure about the English commentary - you can hear Daniel and Dolores rattling on in Spanish and then the translator says about 3 words in English - but they seem to make a lot of sense so I guess they are just paraphrasing.

There seems to be a form for ordering the DVD but it isn't exactly clear (like no details of price). I'd email them and make sure they will despatch to the UK - and have a Region 2 version (unless you've got a region free DVD player or can hack yours).

[philsmove]

:, so let's not be too hard on ourselves )

:hug::hug:
Isn’t it nice to share experiences?

Things on my list to sort

Navigation
Musicality
Finding the start and end of a phrase
The embrace
Knowing (without looking) if my partner is the cross
Remembering the move that allows a sharp change of direction when “boxed in”

ALL at the same time :tears:

[David Bailey]

{ snip list of cross "leads" }
It's actually a bit depressing, I still have an unconscious assumption that everyone who's done enough AT (i.e. 1 year or more) will be Dance Gods.

So it's a bit of an anti-climax to learn that some of them don't even realise that a cross is supposed to be led, and not using some sort of secret signal or wink... :rolleyes:

Oh well, hey ho.

[Clive Long]

There seems to be a form for ordering the DVD but it isn't exactly clear (like no details of price). I'd email them and make sure they will despatch to the UK - and have a Region 2 version (unless you've got a region free DVD player or can hack yours).
Me! Me! Me! Me! Not knowing some figures (I know, I know, listen to the music) is holding me back from just diving in and dancing.

If you can place a "bulk order" should make P&P less.

anyone else want a DVD?

CRL

[philsmove]

anyone else want a DVD?

CRL

Yes Please

[DianaS]

Me! Me! Me! Me! Not knowing some figures (I know, I know, listen to the music) is holding me back from just diving in and dancing.

If you can place a "bulk order" should make P&P less.

anyone else want a DVD?

CRL
I Do Clive !!
Will you practice with me though:flower:

[Lynn]

It's actually a bit depressing, I still have an unconscious assumption that everyone who's done enough AT (i.e. 1 year or more) will be Dance Gods.

So it's a bit of an anti-climax to learn that some of them don't even realise that a cross is supposed to be led, and not using some sort of secret signal or wink... :rolleyes: This flippin' cross business...! :tears:

We did the 16 count basic (?) tonight - 8 count with a sort of turn around thingy as part of it after the cross, back into outside walk, cross and close.

I was dancing it with a female lead (we are down to about 20 in the class - only 8 men) and the teacher came over to help by going through it with us. So I asked her about the cross - was there a lead? She said no. I then asked what if the lead takes more than the 2 steps outside - she said I should cross anyway to show him I know I should cross at that point. :tears: :tears: You just do, she told me, its a sort of rule.

So basically stop following then? :confused: I think I'm even more confused as I had been sure she had shown a lead for the cross in week 2. So in this class I'm just going to cross when I'm 'supposed to' and not ask any more about it.

We also did ochos tonight - all completely led by the arms - and I thought that the lead was supposed to come from the chest?

I wonder are both these points because we are being taught by a woman, with no male demo? She does seem very good at showing the women's steps and styling, it just seems to be areas of the lead that I am noticing are being taught very differently to what I have heard elsewhere.

Between that and the fact that we did this step over and over, with no practica time at the end so I only really got part of one 'follow' dance, I came away feeling very deflated. :( I'm sad about Tango tonight.:(

[Lynn]

anyone else want a DVD?Me!

And can I order someone to practice with as well? (Male order?:rofl: OK - groan, I know, its almost 2am...)

[JonD]

I wonder are both these points because we are being taught by a woman, with no male demo? She does seem very good at showing the women's steps and styling, it just seems to be areas of the lead that I am noticing are being taught very differently to what I have heard elsewhere.
I don't think it's just because there is no male demo. Ruth Zimmerman often teaches on her own and is a demon for getting the lead elements right. I'm a bit at a loss to explain it - your first few classes seemed to be giving you the principles of lead/follow and now you're definitively told there is no lead for the cross and folk are being allowed to lead ochos from their arms. Strange. I think I'd go back to the teacher next week and ask her to confirm what she said - maybe she was just having an off night!

There is, quite definitely, a clear lead for a cross. A cross can be led both sides (left foot in front of right and vice versa), from parallel or opposite feet and when walking outside or in-line. I know because I lead them all the time and I don't raise my eyebrow, lick my lips, shrug my shoulders or look at my partner's feet to achieve it (well, OK, I do occasionally lick my lips but that's nothing to do with the cross). Equally, leading ochos without any arm contact is a fairly normal beginner exercise for practicing lead/follow. They are all just steps - you don't need any special "magic" to make them happen.


I'm sad about Tango tonight.
Tons and tons of sympathy! It'll get better and you'll be back to loving it soon. At Southport I'll lead you into so many crosses it'll make you dizzy - if we're in adjacent chalets we can cross and ocho our way along the veranda (but not down the steps)!

[timbp]

I was dancing it with a female lead (we are down to about 20 in the class - only 8 men) and the teacher came over to help by going through it with us. So I asked her about the cross - was there a lead? She said no. I then asked what if the lead takes more than the 2 steps outside - she said I should cross anyway to show him I know I should cross at that point. :tears: :tears: You just do, she told me, its a sort of rule.

I was horrified when I first read this. Then during the day thinking about it, I wondered if I (and you) had misunderstood, and that she was actually telling you to do the cross in the class because the beginner guys can't lead it.

But on re-reading your post, I think not. It appears she has no idea about lead/follow (at least for this step).

And, on further consideration, I go back to believing it's better for the girl to follow what the guy is leading, not what she thinks he thinks he is leading. I learn more when a good follower does something I didn't expect because my lead wasn't what I had intended.

"to show him I know I should cross at that point": I thought this was a male-led dance. The only thing the lady "should" do is what the guy tells (leads) her to do.

[Lynn]

I'm a bit at a loss to explain it - your first few classes seemed to be giving you the principles of lead/follow and now you're definitively told there is no lead for the cross and folk are being allowed to lead ochos from their arms. ...snip...Equally, leading ochos without any arm contact is a fairly normal beginner exercise for practicing lead/follow. Re the ochos - it could be that she is concentrating at this point on getting the footwork and body position correct and will talk more about the leading in another week. So it could be just a different teaching style. I prefer (in a dance like tango) to spend more time on getting the basics right at the start even but perhaps others find it boring and want to see more progression in actual moves? She did talk about connection a bit this week but she was getting us to feel this connection through our arms in a two handed hold facing (tension and compression, though she didn't use those terms). That would all make sense to me in a MJ class, but perhaps she will build from that to the 'chest' lead. I just feel that will mean having to learn to do something one way, then learn not to do it that way...

(And if I hadn't done the classes at Scarborough I wouldn't know that ochos aren't arm led so it wouldn't be bothering me. As it was, seeing the guys standing completely still and steering the women round with big arm movements, was frustrating me a bit, but I can't really say anything, just keep following...)


There is, quite definitely, a clear lead for a cross. A cross can be led both sides (left foot in front of right and vice versa), from parallel or opposite feet and when walking outside or in-line. The cross - I sort of wish I had never wondered about this in the first place but as a follow I can't help but want to, well, follow! So I want to know how things are led. But on thinking about it....
I wondered if I (and you) had misunderstood, and that she was actually telling you to do the cross in the class because the beginner guys can't lead it. ...not exactly that, but I think now that she thought I was talking about the lead for the cross in the basic 8. And if you are doing the basic 8 you always cross at that point. Fair enough. But in social dancing you don't just do the basic 8 around the room! I will perservere and ask her again and make it clear I'm not just asking about the lead for the cross in the basic 8.

Tons and tons of sympathy! It'll get better and you'll be back to loving it soon. :hug: Thanks - its probably because tango does touch us at an emotional level that means it can also make you sad. I'm really looking forward to Southport to dancing with more experienced leads, wish there was somewhere locally, even once a month where I could do that. (Hopefully as I progress I'll be able to go down to Dublin sometimes for workshops, practicas and eventually, *gulp* milongas!).

[David Bailey]

So I asked her about the cross - was there a lead? She said no. I then asked what if the lead takes more than the 2 steps outside - she said I should cross anyway to show him I know I should cross at that point. :tears: :tears: You just do, she told me, its a sort of rule.
Hold on, let me check, this is a tango teacher telling you this? Someone you pay money to? :eek: :mad:

Ignore her, even I know she's talking total junk. By her criteria, you'd never be able to improvise, and AT is all about improvisation. I'm sorry, but that's just shocking... I wouldn't even accept that in a Ceroc class, let alone an AT class. Grrrr....

EDIT: Giving vast benefit of the doubt, it's possible she was solely talking about this silly basic 8 thing. But even so, surely it's good form to lead the cross in that, simply so leaders and followers recognise the lead for it in freestyle?


We also did ochos tonight - all completely led by the arms - and I thought that the lead was supposed to come from the chest?
Yes, that's what I believe - again, if you want to lead / be led with the arms, you might as well just do MJ. :devil:

It's possible to lead ochos and giros - and swap between them - without even touching; in the class Clive and I go to, the teacher (also female) demonstrated that, a while back.


I'm sad about Tango tonight.:(
I don't blame you, your teacher seems to be contradicting everything everyone else is saying. Don't panic; have the confidence to believe that you're right and she's wrong. As I mentioned, it's difficult to get that confidence when you're a beginner in a new dance, but in this instance, your teacher doesn't sound too smart. But AT is still a lovely dance, stick with it.

Remember, it is a male-led dance, and the cross is both leadable and led. A very good description of the lead was given up ^^ somewhere...

I don't suppose there are any other classes you could go to?

[Lynn]

Hold on, let me check, this is a tango teacher telling you this? Someone you pay money to? :eek: :mad: Believe it or not, I still haven't lost confidence in the teacher. I just think she is over-simplifying things as a teaching method. And if I hadn't experienced another teacher at Scarborough (and read other people's experiences on here) I wouldn't be bothered (well OK I still would be questioning the lead for the cross, but not the arm led ochos)

Grrrr.... Did feel a bit like this last night, when I wasn't feeling sad about it.

It's possible to lead ochos and giros - and swap between them - without even touching; in the class Clive and I go to, the teacher (also female) demonstrated that, a while back. Ivan (teacher at Scarborough) didn't go that far but he emphasised not leading with the arms and getting people to lead ochos with the man's hands behind his back and woman's hands on his shoulders.

I don't suppose there are any other classes you could go to?Nope, this is it for NI. (There is another class but I've been told its a mix of ballroom and AT? Would probably be even more confusing). I'll just have to save up for classes and workshops in Dublin (or even occasionally London, a flight to London is only about £10 more than the train to Dublin!)

And I am not giving up on this, no matter how frustrated I get!

[philsmove]

She did talk about connection a bit this week but she was getting us to feel this connection through our arms in a two handed hold facing (tension and compression, though she didn't use those terms).

This is the “practice embrace” but the lead should not be using his arms to lead

His Upper body (chest) should lead

The arms are used to keep you in position, not to lead

It is impossible to lead if there is no connection

I not found any one, who can explain, in words, how the connection works

But when it does work properly, there is no lead or follower, just two people who have become one

You need to watch a really good dancers to get some idea of how it works

Have you tried the full embrace

Some teachers seem reluctant to try this as it can be intimidating with a total stranger who is not used to partner dancing .It is impossible to use your arms to lead , as they are round your partners neck

Are the leaders in your class from MJ

If so they have some “unlearning” to do


Ps easy jet do cheap flights to bristol:hug:

[JonD]

The cross - I sort of wish I had never wondered about this in the first place ....
That makes me smile: I remember when I learnt the cross from Ruth and Fernando in a class nearly four years ago. They hadn't been teaching long and prefaced the lesson by saying "Now, this is going to be difficult". Sure enough, we all found it incredibly difficult. It took me ages to get it. About a year ago I went to a beginner class where Ruth taught the cross without any preamble at all - just like taking a step. Everyone got it really quickly and, remembering the trouble I'd had, I said something to Ruth about it. She smiled and replied "Well, I'm learning too".


Believe it or not, I still haven't lost confidence in the teacher. I just think she is over-simplifying things as a teaching method.
I think you are right. We've got to remember that we're dance junkies and probably wouldn't mind having 2 months of classes on basic technique where most of the rest of the class actually want to be able to feel they are dancing after a couple of weeks. I'm sure she'll develop the lead/follow aspect as the course continues - hope so anyway.

Right - off to practice with Julie. I've been at work all day so we're going to have to work on this bl**dy routine late into the evening. (I love it really!)

[Lynn]

This is the “practice embrace” but the lead should not be using his arms to lead I thought the practice was holding each others arms? This was holding hands in the same way as a ceroc 'in and out' move and getting a woman to step forward on her left by pulling on her left hand.

Have you tried the full embrace

Some teachers seem reluctant to try this as it can be intimidating with a total stranger who is not used to partner dancing .It is impossible to use your arms to lead , as they are round your partners neck Yes, she did show us in week one, though we didn't use it this week. I feel more connection in the embrace, perhaps because the lead has to be more subtle - the man can't 'pull' me around.

Are the leaders in your class from MJ

If so they have some “unlearning” to do No, only 2 are and they don't seem to be having any 'unlearning' problems. I'm the only MJ follower in the class.

Ps easy jet do cheap flights to bristol:hug:I know! I just need to get a better paid job so I can afford to pop over to different places for weekend breaks!

[Whitebeard]

..... and not using some sort of secret signal or wink...

They say a nod is as good as a wink.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn
I came away feeling very deflated. :( I'm sad about Tango tonight. :(
Aww Lynn, you brought a tear to my eye, I feel so deeply sorry for you and want to give you a hug. Nothing but nothing should be allowed to make you feel sad and interfere with your passion for Tango.

She’s lucky that you haven’t lost confidence in her as a teacher and you may be right about her over simplified teaching style. Fortunately, you know how to follow and not to anticipate so perhaps just treat her comments as a minor irritation and carry on.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Philsmove
Of the three classes I attend only one uses the basic 8


Originally posted by timbp
Not a lot of mention of lead and follow once we got into the 8 step basic.


Then a talk about how the 8 step is just a practise exercise, and in actual dancing you use whatever steps you want.

Originally posted by DJ on our other tango thread
That seems to be the problem with the basic 8 - or any sequence really - it doesn't teach you to lead, and it may inculcate bad habits.

Hey guys, seems that we are not alone.
Found this cheerful post on an American Tango Forum which describes itself as an independent newsletter for the Chicago Community. http://www.tangonoticias.com/tangotalk/viewtopic.php?topic=642&forum=9&1

(oh dear, now I'm having a little panic because I've no idea if the link will work)

[Lynn]

Aww Lynn, you brought a tear to my eye, I feel so deeply sorry for you and want to give you a hug. Nothing but nothing should be allowed to make you feel sad and interfere with your passion for Tango. :hug: Thanks. I know I have many wonderful tango dances ahead of me in the future so I'll think about those instead of my current frustations. Actually a big thanks to all the forumites who responded to my posts about my last class, its really made me feel a lot better about it all. :hug:

Fortunately, you know how to follow and not to anticipate so perhaps just treat her comments as a minor irritation and carry on. I think thats part of my frustration, I'm not getting to practice following a lead. (I'm going to invite a friend from the class round for a meal on the condition that we dance tango after dinner!)

And I'm also frustrated that we are talking a lot about connection and lead and follow, then spending most of our time learning a set pattern of steps and repeating a learned sequence. I would rather spend ages just walking in pairs feeling the connection, but others might get bored with that. Its also because for me connection feels key in tango, rather than worrying about what my feet are doing. Probably a stage I will progress past but its where I am at the moment.

Its good that this thread is an opportunity for us to share our frustrations in learning tango, as well as the highs!

(oh dear, now I'm having a little panic because I've no idea if the link will work)It worked!

[LMC]

4th lesson...

Hamza gem: "surprise yourself"

Easy, 'cos I haven't a clue what I'm doing!

Lots and lots of walking tonight. The main focus was on grapevine steps, with an eye to doing ?boleros (didn't quite catch the name) next week. Frustrated for most of the evening because there were a few women over (and we're all *hopeless* leaders, I'm the worst!) and a few very new dancers who haven't done other dance styles and were struggling with frame and connection. So a large part of the evening was like the blind leading the blind: I knew we weren't doing it right, but didn't know what "right" should look or feel like.

Then about 10 minutes before the end, I finally got my only "go" of the evening with Hamza and the penny dropped on following the chest lead (and about time!). So I've come away feeling quite positive and very anxious to practise - I'm suddenly feeling the need to get some freestyle - look out guys :D

[Lynn]

I knew we weren't doing it right, but didn't know what "right" should look or feel like. Sounds very familiar...

So I've come away feeling quite positive and very anxious to practise - I'm suddenly feeling the need to get some freestyle - look out guys :D:clap: Fab! Things do 'click' more when you get to practice them with an experienced lead. Hope you get lots of practice dances.

[David Bailey]

Ivan (teacher at Scarborough) didn't go that far but he emphasised not leading with the arms and getting people to lead ochos with the man's hands behind his back and woman's hands on his shoulders.
I've been practicing this type of lead over the past few weeks, in private sessions, and it's amazing how it works - it's like magic, you can lead a woman into forwards, backwards, ochos, giros (and swap between them), just using your chest to lead. I haven't tried to lead a cross that way yet, admittedly...

But considering 95% of the dancing I've done has been "hand-led", this has been a real eye-opener for me. Maybe all practise tango sessions should be hands-free :)

[Yogi_Bear]

4th lesson...

Lots and lots of walking tonight. The main focus was on grapevine steps, with an eye to doing ?boleros (didn't quite catch the name) next week. D
Boleos -

Boleo
Seductive and elegant, Boleos always involve the swivelling action of the hips; and a whiplash effect from one leg - otherwise they look, and feel unfinished. This step is essentially an interrupted Ocho whose energy is released and channelled into a lovely circular or linear movement of the women's leg. With the knees together, and one leg back, the woman swivels, and then returns to the starting position, finishing on the supporting leg. The move should be executed with a whipping action on the working leg.

It is an incredibly versatile step - Boleos can be done low and close to the floor in which case they tend to be slower, but they can also be high, and therefore quicker, with loads of released energy. They can be performed either forwards or backwards, as linear or circular figures.

In the circular versions, the knees of the woman should be kept close together, with the working leg not travelling too far. In the linear ones, the leg can journey as far as possible. But which ever version is being performed, the woman's working leg should always be returned with a whiplash motion - the word Boleo comes from Boleadores - the Gaucho's tool for catching cattle, which is used like a whip.

[Lynn]

I've been practicing this type of lead over the past few weeks, in private sessions, and it's amazing how it works - it's like magic, you can lead a woman into forwards, backwards, ochos, giros (and swap between them), just using your chest to lead. I'd love to try following like that, I think its a great exercise for the follower as well, to follow properly and not wait to be 'steered' into position.

I haven't tried to lead a cross that way yet, admittedly... What's a cross then? Never heard of those. :whistle:

[David Bailey]

What's a cross then? Never heard of those. :whistle:
Don't worry about it, they just happen, they don't need to be led or followed. :innocent:

Actually, the reason I think the cross is so important, is that there's so many different things you can do from it; ochos. giros, forward-and-back, etc. So it's a key "base" step I guess, which is why it's so important to be able to lead it.

[Lynn]

So it's a kye "base" step I guess, which is why it's so important to be able to lead it. And know what the lead should be! :tears:


Actually, the reason I think the cross is so important, is that there's so many different things you can do from it; ochos. hiros, forward-and-back, etc. So it's a kye "base" step I guess, which is why it's so important to be able to lead it. :what: There's an imposter posting as DJ!!

[David Bailey]

:what: There's an imposter posting as DJ!!
:innocent:

[Lynn]

:innocent::rofl: Nice edit.
But I was even quicker...

[LMC]

"No hands" lead and follow would have helped me get that chest lead a whole lot quicker. Watching the chest and trying to follow that, while the arms are leading you to do something different is *impossible* - which was why I was struggling so much with the grapevine step last night.

Once Hamza had spent just two minutes with me, I found I could "ignore" the arms and follow the chest much more easily, because I knew how the lead "should" feel and could follow the intention without getting confused by what the guys' arms were doing.

But I still need to practise... no wonder DJ has been avoiding me recently :tears:

[Rachel]

...Watching the chest and trying to follow that, while the arms are leading you to do something different is *impossible*...I may not do tango - yet! - but I love reading everyone's tango posts and feel like I'm picking things up from them. (Vicarious tango??)

But I was having a conversation with Marc just the other day , re. modern jive, saying that the problem I find with some men is that their body is leading you one way, but their hands are leading you somewhere completely different. Something we'll need to try and get across in the classes, somehow.

Funnily, we've stolen the tango idea of hands on chest and introduced that for lead/follow practise in a couple of Ceroc workshops *. It seemed to go down very well.

Rachel

Edit * if I remember correctly, Franck did this too in one of his BFG workshops. It's great - I love it.

[TheTramp]

Funnily, we've stolen the tango idea of hands on chest and introduced that for lead/follow practise in a couple of Ceroc workshops. It seemed to go down very well.

I am trying so hard not to comment on this!! :innocent:

[Rachel]

I am trying so hard not to comment on this!! :innocent:No comment? You surprise me!

You know what I meant, though - just too lazy to find a better phrasing ....

[TheTramp]

No comment? You surprise me!

I'm very shy... :innocent:

[David Bailey]

Funnily, we've stolen the tango idea of hands on chest and introduced that for lead/follow practise in a couple of Ceroc workshops *. It seemed to go down very well.
Ignoring the smut, the really impressive version is "no contact at all" - that really is like magic, you can't believe this is being led, there are almost no visible signals.

[Rachel]

Ignoring the smut, the really impressive version is "no contact at all" - that really is like magic, you can't believe this is being led, there are almost no visible signals.Franck also got us trying that that in his BFG workshop :respect: It's so hard! I can only do the 'hands on chest' thing with my eyes closed, you see. And that makes 'no contact at all' a bit difficult ...
R. x

[philsmove]

Ignoring the smut, the really impressive version is "no contact at all" - that really is like magic, you can't believe this is being led, there are almost no visible signals.

One my teachers , Eduardo :worthy: , sometimes demonstrates this - with a 10 foot gap between himself and his partner

[timbp]

Lesson 4

In this class, the teacher started to emphasise the improvisational nature of the dance.

We started, as always, with walking, forwards then back.

Then standing on one foot, moving the free leg. The idea is to isolate the movement to that free leg. The rest of the body should not move, except a slight rotation of the torso -- when left leg is forward, right shoulder should be slightly forward. But your axis should not move, however you are moving your leg. We repeated this with the other leg free.

Next, we stood feet together, weight on the right foot, and did a quarter turn to the right. Shoulders turn first, and the turn is tranmitted down until the feet move. Four quarter turns to get back to the start, then change weight to the left foot, and four quarter turns to the left. Then weight on left foot, four quarter turns to the right; weight on right foot, four quarter turns to the left.

We then partnered up, he put some music on and told us to move around the floor in the line of dance, just doing forward steps and open/side steps. My leading was atrocious. I was ok walking forward, but couldn't seem to manage a change to an open step, or from open to forward. And I was continually trying to my partner on the wrong. I did improve as the exercise went on, and the female teacher explained a bit of what I was doing wrong. BUt I was still so often not recognising which foot the girl was on, or not leading her to change her weight.

We then learned the sandwich. (The teacher does mention the non-english names, but I can't seem to catch them. Checking wikipedia, I think this the mordida.)

Then we practised the pattern (8 basic with the sandwich included). And then he told us to remember to practise our other steps (forward and reverse ochos), and he started to emphasise improvisation -- practise the steps, but dance them as you feel appropriate to the music, space, etc.

I was still wrong-footing my partner. I was also watching my feet almost all the time. I would be watching my feet while thinking "don't watch your feet". BUt I managed to lead the various steps reasonably well. It helped that I now felt I had permission to mix up the steps, rather than just using the basic 8 pattern, so I could try to concentrate on where I wanted to move and how to lead there, rather than trying to remember what was the next step I was meant to do. I even managed to move in time to the music some of the time, and even some small interpretation (in terms of pauses or varying the speed of steps).

At the end of the class, someone asked a question. I didn't actually catch what he said, but it was related to improvisation and remembering steps/patterns. The teacher put on some music, and danced the pattern we'd just learned (basic 8 including the sandwich) through three times, but adding pauses or extra weight changes, making some steps slow, others fast. The same basic pattern three times, but it looked so different you could think he had never repeated a step.

[Graham W]

No time to read all thread yet,(prompted to by Philsmove) but just to throw my hat in the ring - been learning ArgTango since Oct 05 & really enjoying the experience - lots of diff teachers & a diff vibe altogether from jive..

G

[David Bailey]

No time to read all thread yet,(prompted to by Philsmove) but just to throw my hat in the ring - been learning ArgTango since Oct 05 & really enjoying the experience - lots of diff teachers & a diff vibe altogether from jive..

G
We need a roll call thread...

[stefanofava]

Hi all,
it seems that passion for Argentine Tango is growing fast amonst Ceroc people. I hope you don't mind if I remind you of our Argentine Tango Workshops in Aberdeen (Station Hotel) this Sat afternoon 25th February (followed by a Milonga in the evening).
The full programme is on our web site under this page:
http://www.tangoinaction.com/services.htm

Alexandra and I hope to meet you soon

Happy dancing...!!

Stefano and Alexandra
Tango in Action

[Lynn]

We need a roll call thread...Good idea! :D

[JonD]

Tim, that sounds like a really good class! I had a terrible time "freeing" my working leg. I couldn't understand how, without tilting your hips, you could have two legs the same length, stand on one and have the other one so it could swing free. But, if you really focus on pushing down through your standing foot into the floor you'll feel that you use your pelvis and diaphram to create the pressure. As you do that you lift your upper body and, as if by magic, your working leg comes free. You can then swing it backwards and forwards by articulating from your pelvis - kind of tilt your pelvis backwards and forwards and feel the leg swing without any input from your muscles. Spooky.

I'm amazed at how impatient you guys are. Getting frustrated because you can't accurately and consistently lead weight changes and the position of your parner's feet after 4 lessons is a bit unfair on yourself. It takes ages to be able to sense where your partner's weight is - I muck it up all the time. (I led a volcada a couple of nights ago and then tried to lead Julie out of it on the wrong foot - she did a very attractive sort of skip as a result, which was better than the alternative of falling on her bum). One tip is to take more time - if you're not sure then stop and do a balanceo to positively put your partner on the foot of your choice. That's one of the great things about AT - you've normally got lots of time and "dramatic pauses" can be added all over the place.

As for looking at your feet: Just don't, OK?! (Easier said than done, I know).

I spent last night (and the night before) working on this dreaded routine. The good news is that I can finally remember the whole damn thing all the way through. I was focussing on the sequences and not the links between them and kept forgetting what came next. Last night we put some time into the links (stuff like side step left, weight change, backward ocho left) and that meant I ended up on the correct foot for the next sequence (back ocho right into sandwich into slow stepover into ganchos x 2 forward ocho right etc.). There are about 6 things that need a load of polishing and we need to start really dancing it rather than stepping through it. We've got 3 hours on Saturday afternoon including an hour with Ruth, then 4 hours on Sunday afternoon which will be great. Next week we're going to try and spend a couple of hours on Monday night, do our own dress rehearsal on Wednesday (and see if I can dance it in a trilby) then there's the venue rehearsal on Thursday and the performance on Friday. I'll be glad when it's over but I have learnt a lot!

Tonight I'm going to Jive and tomorrow night Julie and I are just going to dance Tango - no routine in sight! It'll be great to just forget about everything but the music and the connection and just dance.

[David Bailey]

I'm amazed at how impatient you guys are.
Actually, me too. I don't expect to progress beyond "beginner" for at least another year or so.

Are we going to have this routine captured on video then? :)

[JonD]

Are we going to have this routine captured on video then?
There's a move afoot to record it for posterity. However, I'm insisting on being the editor. Given the horlicks I was making of one particular figure last night it's quite likely that the whole thing will end up on the cutting room floor. I'm not sure if we'll ever let anyone see it - it depends on how good it is and how shy I'm feeling!

I've already learnt a lot from preparing the routine; we're doing some figures that would be way beyond me in freestyle and it's forcing me to try and learn to be faster and more accurate. Balance is just so critical. I used to think that you could get away with poor balance when you are moving faster but that just isn't the case. Complex sacada into sacada into barida into boleo type stuff demands incredible precision and you can't be precise if you're wobbling. Fortunately it's all choreographed so Julie knows what's coming. I don't have to try and get the leads right and she can spare some time to help keep me from falling over!

[CeeCee]

the journey continues…
originally posted by LMC
Lots and lots of walking tonight.
As mentioned before on numerous posts, this is common and essential. I had to laugh at the end of my class last night when a girl mentioned that she’d attended another venue the previous week. The first ten minutes were spent ‘just walking and it was so boring’. She was singularly unimpressed when I told her about my first AT class which consisted of walking for the entire hour!

originally posted by LMC
So I've come away feeling quite positive and very anxious to practise - I'm suddenly feeling the need to get some freestyle - look out guys
Hey, good for you, take yourself off to a milonga and have some fun.

I had a super night at my Tango class in Chiswick Town Hall last night. So much concentration on Tango has left me mourning the loss of spins, turns, dips, drops and lifts. Well last night our group learned a move, which involved a series of underarm turns for the follower, no idea of the name but what fun!

With 3 chaps in our group of 12 all of us took turns to lead and follow. I had great fun leading a chap who seemed to have fun doing underarm turns.

The milonga was a treat as I was fortunate to have a dream dance with a stranger, the music was sublime and he led slow, slower and even slower moves with stationary leans, rotating leans and pauses and it was simply…

Originally posted by timbp
It helped that I now felt I had permission to mix up the steps, rather than just using the basic 8 pattern,
Liberating isn’t it?


Originally posted by timbp
The teacher put on some music, and danced the pattern we'd just learned (basic 8 including the sandwich) through three times, but adding pauses or extra weight changes, making some steps slow, others fast. The same basic pattern three times, but it looked so different you could think he had never repeated a step.
Were you impressed? I witnessed the same at the class last week when the teachers did just as you described at the end of the class and I left feeling inspired.


Originally posted by Yogi Bear
I'm amazed at how impatient you guys are.
Met a lady at a class who told me that she really must have some private lessons soon because to use her words she was “rubbish at Argentine Tango and just not getting it”. How many lessons has she had? This was her second!


Originally posted by Yogi Bear
Boleo
Seductive and elegant, Boleos always involve the swivelling action of the hips; and a whiplash effect from one leg - otherwise they look, and feel unfinished. This step is essentially an interrupted Ocho whose energy is released and channelled into a lovely circular or linear movement of the women's leg. With the knees together, and one leg back, the woman swivels, and then returns to the starting position, finishing on the supporting leg. The move should be executed with a whipping action on the working leg. ..
Wow, thanks for this it sounds brilliant, I’m off to practice...

[Kev F]

When learning how to do the close embrace, we've been practicing a lot with BOTH our hands behind our backs, using just our chests as the point of contact, this has showed up many of our flaws (which hopefully we're working to iron out )

For lory, she found out how much she relies on the hand hold to keep her balance. And when walking, our bodies might have felt (and even looked) as though they were moving smoothly (I don't mean in the up and down, bouncy sense) but during each step, we'd have a blip where we moved faster or slower, this shows up terribly when the hands and arms aren't there to act as shock absorbers and we found ourselves having a bit of a bumpy time of it.

We found part of the key, is to keep pressure against each other.
If you stand very close but with no real contact, you bump and collide much more as your bodies work against each other but as soon as you exert a small amount of pressure, it seems to smooth out.

It's also interesting how difficult it is to transition to body leading once a MJ style has been implanted in a dancer. I've been try to avoid the temptation to lead too much with my arms and applying the body leading back through the MJ too, with quite exciting results.

I still haven't got to grips with Pablo de Giorgios theory of leading by intent. :blush:

[David Bailey]

When learning how to do the close embrace, we've been practicing a lot with BOTH our hands behind our backs, using just our chests as the point of contact,
Really? Hmmm... :innocent:

(I'm sorry, the image just flashed into my head :blush: )

[Lynn]

Are we going to have this routine captured on video then? :)Or we will maybe get to see it at the Southport milonga perhaps?

Re the impatience thing, it probably comes from expected progression based on previous dance experience in other styles. A dancer who had attended the first class at Scarborough said it was 'like watching paint dry' (and I thought the classes covered quite a lot!) and I'm wondering if the teaching of footwork patterns rather than focus on leading in our local class is as a result of people feeling impatient?

I'm happy to get up and just do very basic steps at the moment, but work on the lead and follow, connection and invitation. We've got years to learn it...

[timbp]

I'm amazed at how impatient you guys are. Getting frustrated because you can't accurately and consistently lead weight changes and the position of your parner's feet after 4 lessons is a bit unfair on yourself.

I never expected to be perfect after only 4 weeks. After all, it is an 8 week course. Even with previous dance experience I wouldn't expect to get close to perfect until near the end of week 7.:rofl:

Frustration was because I had done better lat eading weight changes the week before. Frustration was because I would fail to lead a weight change, realise what I had done, then do exactly the same thing 3 steps later.

The real problem is I'm doing too much at the moment, and getting tired. But what do I give up: tango? ceroc? west coast swing?

[Alice]

I never expected to be perfect after only 4 weeks. After all, it is an 8 week course. Even with previous dance experience I wouldn't expect to get close to perfect until near the end of week 7.:rofl:

Frustration was because I had done better lat eading weight changes the week before. Frustration was because I would fail to lead a weight change, realise what I had done, then do exactly the same thing 3 steps later.

The real problem is I'm doing too much at the moment, and getting tired. But what do I give up: tango? ceroc? west coast swing?
:yeah:
Oh the choices we face....:eek:

[JonD]

Frustration was because I had done better at leading weight changes the week before. Frustration was because I would fail to lead a weight change, realise what I had done, then do exactly the same thing 3 steps later.
That sounds horribly familiar!

But what do I give up: tango? ceroc? west coast swing?
We just need more nights in the week! I'd love to learn WCS - it's a fab dance and I love the connection and "tension" in it. Nelson is teaching it on Mondays but I know it would just be too much so haven't done any of the classes. I fear I'd be back on a "dance treadmill" if I did and end up getting jaded. I took a three month break from all dancing a couple of years ago because it all started to feel too much - almost every evening and weekend was booked up months in advance and I wasn't taking any "down time". The break did me good and helped me fit dancing into my life a bit more sensibly.

We've got years to learn it...
It's wonderful isn't it - I can see years of delight learning AT, WCS, MJ and maybe other dances I've yet to discover. Life is good; dance and dancers play a huge part in making it so.

[David Bailey]

OK, I'm deserting from the "North London" thread, as this seems to be the place to report one's experiences.

Incredibly frustrating class last night - I came home and just wanted to bang my head against a wall for an hour.

Kicca returned after her trip ( :clap: ), but she and Keiji took a while to get back into rhythm and connection ( :sad: ), so a lot of time was wasted trying to work out where they were, and what they were supposed to be doing.

I have to say, based on the sessions so far, I'm not getting as much from the intermediate classes as I did from the beginner classes - there's not so much of a clear structure involved, and it seems much more ad-hoc. Possibly this is because Kicca's been off for a month, but some planning wouldn't have gone amiss.

In addition, I got stuck with a partner (for about an hour) with whom I could find no connection. I'm sorry, I'm a bad person and will rot in hell for saying this, but she just would not follow my lead - she was racing off to do her own thing, all the time, ignoring my attempts to set the pace and actually do the lead.

(Having said that, I probably do need to speed my lead up - I'm focussing on getting everything done right rather than getting everything done at the right speed)

I know, I'm the leader, I should control things - but in AT, it's all invitational, AFAIK there's no easy way to "increase the strength" of the lead - if the follower ignores it, you pretty much have to follow her wherever she goes. And I've no problem with learning with someone less experienced (amazingly enough, there are people less experienced than me), but I don't want to have to fight for control for a solid hour - we should have been swapped around. :mad:

In addition, we covered baridas (sweeps), and I had incredible problems doing these from a giro - my weight was always on the wrong foot, I just couldn't get it to work despite a 5-minute session sweating in front of both teachers trying to understand it. Finally, I just decided to do it at speed - and it worked! Yay! More to the point, at speed I could "enforce" a lead with a barida, which cheered me up a little.

So, this week's moral is to speed things up.

[LMC]

(Having said that, I probably do need to speed my lead up - I'm focussing on getting everything done right rather than getting everything done at the right speed)
Note to self: must dance with DJ ASAP.

Because I frequently feel like I'm being rushed, I strongly suspect my following is slow for the same reason - I really want to get it right.

Form an orderly queue behind me :innocent:

[Lory]

So, this week's moral is to speed things up.
Nope, sorry, I don't agree! :devil:

Its much better to do it properly, particularly paying maximum attention to where the axis is, than to speed up and get it wrong! :sick:

When I danced with Pablo, it was amazingly slow but VERRRRRY smooth. He waited until I was balanced (on my own axis) and sometimes he sort of pivoted me back and forth very slightly, seemingly to test that I was centred before he lead the next move?

I felt so light when he was changing my direction, he made it feel like no effort whatsoever. :respect:

[David Bailey]

Nope, sorry, I don't agree! :devil:

Its much better to do it properly, particularly paying maximum attention to where the axis is, than to speed up and get it wrong! :sick:
I totally agree in general - but when you're dancing with a partner on speed (!), you have to put up with it. And there are some benefits to trying to speed it up, it does make you think at "dance speed"; if you can do it right at that speed, you're doing well. Also, some of the flowing movements like baridas seemed to me to flow more naturally when done faster - you almost didn't have time to think about it, the movements became natural.

Having said all that, I know what you're saying, and proper technique and positioning are very important - also, speed encourages sloppy technique. But speed is important too - and for me, when dancing with someone who's rushing through things*, if I focus on getting some value out of it, at least that's something positive I can get from the session.

* Believe me when I say, I repeatedly asked her to slow it down, to get the technique right, but she wasn't listening to me :(

As an addendum - is there any way to enforce a particular speed as a leader? I couldn't work out a way last night...

[Lory]

* Believe me when I say, I repeatedly asked her to slow it down, to get the technique right, but she wasn't listening to me :(

As an addendum - is there any way to enforce a particular speed as a leader? I couldn't work out a way last night...
In this case, I feel very sorry for you because my teacher has drilled it into me, that it's my job as a follower to do absolutely nothing but wait, until i'm lead to do something!

I found it hard but it IS getting easier! :grin:

And apparently one of the best compliments a man will pay to a woman in Tango is "she/you waited well" ;)

[David Bailey]

In this case, I feel very sorry for you because my teacher has drilled it into me, that it's my job as a follower to do absolutely nothing but wait, until i'm lead to do something!
So, in other words, you're a passive follower? :devil: :na:


And apparently one of the best compliments a man will pay to a woman in Tango is "she/you waited well" ;)
I don't believe I'll be saying that particular phrase any time soon to that person :whistle:

Kicca and Keiji have great strengths as teachers - they focus on technique, they demonstrate the spirit of the dance, they have so far completely ignored the dodgy Basic 8, they have patience and humour, and so on. But they haven't really emphasised the sequence (for the follower) of: wait for offer - move - wait for leader to follow you.

Oh well, all teachers are different - sometimes I think there are more AT teachers in London than AT dancers :)

[Lory]

So, in other words, you're a passive follower? :devil: :na:
I'm trying as best as I can to be :innocent:

Just in Tango that is :devil: :D

[LMC]

Hamza actually told me off for being too passive on my second lesson :eek: - but I think he actually meant that I was being too slow to follow :blush:

I guess it varies from teacher to teacher - Hamza has said a couple of times that a more experienced follower can "surprise" their partner (by which I guess he means hijack... :rolleyes: ) - but I don't think anyone leading me has anything to worry about on that front until about 16 April 2237.

[philsmove]

The active / passive thing came up at last night s lesson


Quote forum the teacher


Tango is like a conversation between two people

Some people like to talk a lot

Some people like to listen a lot

You must listen for when other person has finished talking (leading)

It’s then your turn to talk (lead)

if the other the other person does not say anything, you take the lead

You listen to the other person

[JonD]

is there any way to enforce a particular speed as a leader?
I haven't found one but it would certainly be useful. Julie was doing this when we were practicing the other day - I'd forget the next bit of the routine and she'd carry on dancing in the hope that I'd catch up. It felt horrible - like I'd been left standing and useless. In freestyle I just stop and wait and hope that the follower "comes back to me". The most peculiar thing is when someone goes into "permanent ocho" mode.

I have to say that I prefer the slow method of learning - I'm finding my efforts to do things fast really, really difficult at the moment. It's just so hard to be really accurate and get the weight changes right. We're doing a barida where I'm picking up Julie's foot just as it starts moving and as I finish a 180' pivot - I have this terrible fear that I'm going to kick her foot really hard (I haven't done so yet). Mind you, if I don't try to speed things up then I'll probably never force myself to learn to cope with the increased speed and the movement just doesn't work in slow motion. David is probably right - damn him!

[Lynn]

Re the waiting thing -

One thing that really crystallised for me this weekend was the waiting on one foot for the next lead in whatever direction. I think I did know this before but its becoming instinctive in my tango dancing now. For me it really reinforces the connection in tango.
I found waiting, while the lead perhaps gently pivoted me a little, helped the connection. So aside from the 'dancing sin' of anticipation, not waiting for the lead would surely ruin the connection as well.

I like the 'waiting for the lead' bit, it almost seems to let the connection 'build up' in that pause so when you do move off, you move almost together.

[David Bailey]

The most peculiar thing is when someone goes into "permanent ocho" mode.
:rofl: That's exactly what happened last night! Were you watching or what?

I felt like I could just let go and she'd carry on going through ultra-fast ochos for some reason :rolleyes:


Mind you, if I don't try to speed things up then I'll probably never force myself to learn to cope with the increased speed and the movement just doesn't work in slow motion. David is probably right - damn him!
:)
Well, to be fair to Keiji and Kicca, that's what they were saying - and of course, you do eventually have to speed it up, so there's an argument for saying that you should learn it at speed and get it right. Because you'll need to do both in a social setting, at least if you want to keep in time to the music, and so that recreates what the requirements are for the move.

The danger is, of course, that you get more sloppy when you're doing it fast. Especially for me, because I'm naturally sloppy anyhow, being brought up in the mean streets of MJ.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by DJ

Incredibly frustrating class last night - I came home and just wanted to bang my head against a wall for an hour.
Aww, poor you, allow noone to make you feel sad about your Tango.

Originally posted by DJ
Having said that, I probably do need to speed my lead up Why? Who says so? You’re the leader, you set the pace

Originally posted by DJ
Believe me when I say, I repeatedly asked her to slow it down, to get the technique right, but she wasn't listening to me
Perhaps she doesn't listen to or follow anyone, ever met a follower like her in MJ?

Originally posted by Lynn
I found waiting, while the lead perhaps gently pivoted me a little, helped the connection.
I agree with you Lynn.

Originally posted by Lory
that it's my job as a follower to do absolutely nothing but wait, until i'm lead to do something!
I’ve heard the same too.
So DJ was right and she (Ms Speedy) was wrong.
I wonder why she was in such a hurry anyway.

[Lynn]

Aww, poor you, allow noone to make you feel sad about your Tango.I know how he felt, I was feeling a bit like that myself last week. I'm hoping for less frustration tonight.

So DJ was right and she (Ms Speedy) was wrong. Course he was, he usually is!

[Lynn]

Tonight at Tango was much better than last week.

The cross – we didn’t hear any more about leading it, but several leads in the class did lead it! Yay!

The teacher seems to be applying a layer approach to learning – we did ochos again this week and she began to say ‘don’t lead from the arms’ and started to talk about leading from the chest. Yay again! She also demonstrated how ochos should look which I found very helpful and made me wish that she had a male demo and we could see her dancing the woman’s part more often with a partner.

In fact she talked about lead a lot, and how the woman should wait for the lead and encouraged the guys to try and catch the woman out to make sure they were following. She went over a few sequences and various endings and told the leaders to vary what they were leading and for the followers to dance with their eyes closed.

We rotated a lot at first but less as the class went on – and at one point I was waiting out for ages. I didn’t mind too much but was starting to get cold (the teacher kept her coat and scarf on for the whole class, which gives some idea of how cold the venue is, and the heaters were on!) She did use me to help her demo a few moves and at one point came over and asked me how I thought the leads were getting on this week. Which hopefully indicated she thought I was following (which I was, most of the time) but perhaps she has been able to tell that from any time she has been leading me.

Another good thing was that the more experienced dancer joined in the class this time – I was with him in the rotation for the ‘eyes closed’ dance, which was good! As we were leaving I suddenly thought to ask him about where he gets tango music (not locally, he is going to email me links and album recommendations) and we ended up going for coffee and talking tango for about an hour. :drool:

I heard tonight that when this course is finished the teacher is going to run another course at the next level. (Beginners level 2 or something.) :clap:

And I’m planning on meeting up with another beginner early next week to have some practice time (just at home).

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn
The cross – we didn’t hear any more about leading it, but several leads in the class did lead it! Yay!


In fact she talked about lead a lot, and how the woman should wait for the lead and encouraged the guys to try and catch the woman out to make sure they were following. She went over a few sequences and various endings and told the leaders to vary what they were leading and for the followers to dance with their eyes closed.
Wow Lynn, good for you, sounds like having a word has really paid off.

Interesting experience at a Tango class last week, laughed my way through the first 15 minutes, it was nothing short of comical and I nearly walked out.

During the class and the milonga I sadly had no leads for the cross, I was expected by my partners to do it as part of the sequence and I was asked to watch the guy’s feet to know when to cross! Oh well.

Is it common for Salsa to be played during a milonga? Apparently the teacher plays Can Can music sometimes depending on his mood. I’ve not come across it so far but then again I’m a newbie and although I’ve managed to pack in a variety of venues during the last few weeks, there are so many places yet to experience.

Anyway, met some lovely people and the friendly atmosphere, sparkly table cloths, pretty candles and sequinned lampshades make me inclined to give it another try. Well, these are all valid reasons for choosing a Tango class, right?

Now, the Sunday before at Kent House, Hammersmith, two hours of great teaching crammed with technique and humour, about 50 people, fairly equal numbers, frequent rotation, high standard of dancing in the class. The milonga was a further two hours of musical enjoyment and the leads were great with beautifully led crosses. Had a chat with a girl who was wearing the perfect shoes for me. I was only marginally disappointed (!) when she told me that she had them specially made on her last visit to Buenos Aires grrr

[David Bailey]

Wow Lynn, good for you, sounds like having a word has really paid off.
Or maybe your teacher is a secret Forumite :)


During the class and the milonga I sadly had no leads for the cross, I was expected by my partners to do it as part of the sequence and I was asked to watch the guy’s feet to know when to cross! Oh well.
See, this is what's beginning to nark me about AT teaching It's a bl*ody difficult dance to learn at the best of times, by far the hardest I've tried. But it sounds like the level of teaching is, frankly, variable. It's like trying to find a good salsa teacher all over again, you have to try a dozen different classes before you find someone that's actually good.

I may (OK, I do :blush: ) whinge a lot about Ceroc, but at least it ensures a minimum standard of teaching - with salsa and (it seems) AT, it look like pot-luck.

And when someone comes out with profoundly dumb advice like "look at their feet" - which even I know is nuts - you have to wonder how people ever manage to progress in AT at all. And it certainly explains how some people have done several years AT without, frankly, getting that good at it.

JonD, do you know if there are any AT teacher credentials?

Actually, maybe a "Tango teachers" thread would be useful - you can never have too many tango threads in a Ceroc forum, after all...


the friendly atmosphere, sparkly table cloths, pretty candles and sequinned lampshades make me inclined to give it another try.
:rofl: Rep on its way.

[Lynn]

CC - glad I'm not alone in my lead for cross frustrations! :hug: The thing that gets me about it all is that this basic 8 step seems to be one that a lot of teachers introduce fairly early on - so you would think that anyone who has done a beginners course would know how to lead the cross.:rolleyes:

The salsa music - seems a bit odd to me, I wouldn't have thought salsa and tango went together.


Or maybe your teacher is a secret Forumite :) Nope - at least one of the guys who led the cross has done her classes before, so she must teach it. She must teach by breaking things down into very simple elements then building them up again. I'm happy enough if that's her style, I know we will get round to things eventually, not skim past them. Eg the lead for ochos - she was talking about the man's chest 'presence' and leading from there - and not leading with the arms (except one lead was being so subtle I couldn't sense his lead for ochos with my eyes closed and he said 'but I'm not allowed to move my shoulders!':rolleyes: ).

It's like trying to find a good salsa teacher all over again, you have to try a dozen different classes before you find someone that's actually good. Yep, noticed that.

And it certainly explains how some people have done several years AT without, frankly, getting that good at it.Substitute salsa for AT and again - yep.

[David Bailey]

CC - glad I'm not alone in my lead for cross frustrations! :hug: The thing that gets me about it all is that this basic 8 step seems to be one that a lot of teachers introduce fairly early on - so you would think that anyone who has done a beginners course would know how to lead the cross.:rolleyes:
It's way way way too early for me to express opinions on AT, but I've not yet let my ignorance stop me, so why start now? :innocent:

The Basic 8 is, IMO, dangerous - it teaches you how to dance in a pattern that looks like AT to the casual observer, but it makes you lazy, and makes it more difficult to improvise by binding you into a pattern. Any benefits from combining those moves into a pattern are (again, IMO) outweighed by the drawbacks of creating a mindset where you expect to do / follow a certain step after another step.


The salsa music - seems a bit odd to me, I wouldn't have thought salsa and tango went together.
You're way too polite. :na:

Salsa and AT have nothing in common - they're both partner dances, and that's about it. I can't honestly say any of my salsa experience was useful in AT, I wish it were. In fact, I can't offhand think of any partner dance that is like AT...

[Lynn]

The Basic 8 is, IMO, dangerous - it teaches you how to dance in a pattern that looks like AT to the casual observer, but it makes you lazy, and makes it more difficult to improvise by binding you into a pattern. Any benefits from combining those moves into a pattern are (again, IMO) outweighed by the drawbacks of creating a mindset where you expect to do / follow a certain step after another step. Interesting you should say that as I was thinking about that this afternoon (as you do).

There are two ways of teaching people to dance - teach them to dance, or teach them the shape of the dance. All previous partner dancing I have come across tend to the latter. Teach a footwork pattern (or moves in the case of MJ), get people moving their feet in that order and that timing and they have the shape of the dance. In fact its what MJ beginners is all about - teach the shape of the dance first and then let people layer up the technique, style, lead and follow, musicality, floorcraft etc later on.

Tango seems to be different. You start off with some of these technique points first, then learn how to craft and shape the dance. There isn't, from what I can see a 'basic step' such as the rock step triple, triple of Lindy or 123,567 of salsa - but as students expect to progress faster, many teachers adopt the 'teach them the shape of the dance' method by teaching footwork patterns such as the basic 8. Not all students would be happy walking round a room for an hour. (In about 4 weeks we've learnt about 5 step combinations, ochos and about 3 'endings' to mix in and one girl said she isn't going to come back as its too slow progress.)

I would be happy with the technique, I'm happy to make slow but gradual progress. But I can understand the need for teachers to balance that with the demand for the students to want to feel like they are doing more.

[philsmove]

The Basic 8 is, IMO, dangerous
i'm also only a novice
at one my classes the teacher will often ask us to go to position 5
If you attended this class and did not know the basic 8, you would be lost
Looking at a clip from

: Christy Cote & George Garcia, Beginning-Intermediate Argentine Tango DVD (http://www.thetangoshop.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=409)
Again the teacher assumes you know the basic 8
And starts the lesson from position 2
it would be very difficult to attend an MJ intermediate class, if one did not know, the first move
learning the basics of AT is taking me a lot longer than learning MJ

Edit

After position 5 you do not go to 6,7,8

But learn several different way of progressing forwards

Or in some case backwards

[David Bailey]

as students expect to progress faster, many teachers adopt the 'teach them the shape of the dance' method by teaching footwork patterns such as the basic 8. Not all students would be happy walking round a room for an hour. (In about 4 weeks we've learnt about 5 step combinations, ochos and about 3 'endings' to mix in and one girl said she isn't going to come back as its too slow progress.)
I can understand this - I first tried AT 6-7 years ago, and it just wasn't for me then, I didn't understand what they were trying to teach, so I dropped out.

Certainly, tango teachers need to earn a living, and the dropout rate for AT is probably savage - and yes, I guess learning the Basic 8 does at least make you think you're progressing, so it may be a necessary illusion ("lie-to-children" type of thing :wink: )

On the other hand, there's no excuse for not stressing the "lead" part of the dance when asked a straightforward question - and the variations in the advice received by people for something relatively basic like leading a cross (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=204937&postcount=209) is just ridiculous, and to me indicates that some teachers are focussing on the form (i.e. getting the shape) and completely ignoring the technique (i.e. how you lead your partner into that shape).

And call me Mr Cynical here, but I can't help but wonder if that's because teaching the form is the easy part, and teaching the technique is the hard part... :rolleyes:

On the other hand, as philsmove says the Basic 8 is so prevalent that anyone not knowing it could be at a disadvantage when swapping teachers. So it's worth learning - I got my private teacher to show me last week - but I don't intend to use it.

[Lynn]

i'm also only a novice
at one my classes the teacher will often ask us to go to position 5
If you attended this class and did not know the basic 8, you would be lost Our teacher would say that as well eg 'starting from step 2' and often 'from the cross'. And we also did what she referred to as a 16 count basic.

After position 5 you do not go to 6,7,8

But learn several different way of progressing forwards

Or in some case backwardsYep - we have learnt several endings from the cross (step 5) - tango close, various ocho options and one I can't remember the name of (in Spanish) a slow, quick, quick, slow, quick, quick thing (she was demoing it with me at the time so I was concentrating on trying to do it right rather than what it was called.)

[Lynn]

On the other hand, there's no excuse for not stressing the "lead" part of the dance when asked a straightforward question - and the variations in the advice received by people for something relatively basic like leading a cross (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=204937&postcount=209) is just ridiculous, and to me indicates that some teachers are focussing on the form (i.e. getting the shape) and completely ignoring the technique (i.e. how you lead your partner into that shape). I had a similar experience at Scarborough when I asked various leads (who had learnt in different places) about this lead - (I think I got a different answer every time.)

For someone new to partner dancing, they probably want to learn the shape as much as, if not more than the technique. For some reason with AT I'm hungry for more technique, even though its not as easy and I know it will take me ages to learn.:tears:

And call me Mr Cynical here, but I can't help but wonder if that's because teaching the form is the easy part, and teaching the technique is the hard part... :rolleyes: And therefore a higher student retention rate, and easier for beginners, I mean they get confused if you try to tell them about lead and connection too early...hang on is any of this sounding familiar?:rolleyes:

[philsmove]

......one I can't remember the name of (in Spanish) a slow, quick, quick, slow, quick, quick thing (she was demoing it with me at the time so I was concentrating on trying to do it right rather than what it was called.)#
And that another problem with Tango
Not only have you got to learn a whole new dance
You have learn a new language as well
O K- MJ has some pretty silly names for the moves, but at least there are in English
And there is reasonable chance you have heard some of the songs before

[ducasi]

:yeah:

That was one of the things that put me off Salsa, and worries me about Tango.

Even though "Ceroc" & "Leroc" are based on French words and a French dance, I don't recall there being any French terms used in MJ.

Perhaps someone wants to take Tango, anglicise it, adapt it as required to work better with modern pop music, and start a new dance craze. They could call it "estango". :D

[timbp]

Perhaps someone wants to take Tango, anglicise it, adapt it as required to work better with modern pop music, and start a new dance craze. They could call it "estango". :D

I think it's been done. New classes just starting in Sydney: http://www.funkytango.com/sydney_tango_fusion_questions.htm

What is tango fusion?
Tango fusion is the tango of this millennium, the fusion of tango with contemporary dance and music.

It is becoming extremely popular amongst young and young in spirit dancers – from Buenos Aires to Berlin, San Francisco to Tokio and now also in Sydney – who love the freedom to improvise to any music, such as electronic tango, swing, hip hop, house, salsa, reggae, classical or your favourite movie soundtracks.

[David Bailey]

I think it's been done. New classes just starting in Sydney: http://www.funkytango.com/sydney_tango_fusion_questions.htm

What is tango fusion?
Tango fusion is the tango of this millennium, the fusion of tango with contemporary dance and music.

It is becoming extremely popular amongst young and young in spirit dancers – from Buenos Aires to Berlin, San Francisco to Tokio and now also in Sydney – who love the freedom to improvise to any music, such as electronic tango, swing, hip hop, house, salsa, reggae, classical or your favourite movie soundtracks.
They're having a laugh, aren't they? Tango to salsa? Are they clinically nuts?

And it also says
Go to the tango clubs as soon as you feel comfortable with the basics of controlled walking, which should not take longer than a month.
Yeah, right... :rolleyes:

There's also swango (http://www.swangoseattle.com/) (Swing / Tango mix), Jango of course, and probably Mango by now :)

I think I'll stick to Tango...

[Lynn]

And that another problem with Tango
Not only have you got to learn a whole new dance
You have learn a new language as well I don't mind that (though it did confuse me a bit when the salida was the start of a move since from what I know of Spanish it means 'exit'). I quite like the fact that its not too watered down - even if it does take more work to learn.

O K- MJ has some pretty silly names for the moves, but at least there are in English
And there is reasonable chance you have heard some of the songs before Again, its a whole new world of music to discover - great!

Tango is not an easy dance to learn, the terms are not easy, the music seems a bewildering maze of artists and styles. I know it will take me years to understand its essence, flow and internal poetry, to feel and move Tango. But to me, its worth it.

[philsmove]

Again, its a whole new world of music to discover - great!

Tango is not an easy dance to learn, the terms are not easy, the music seems a bewildering maze of artists and styles. I know it will take me years to understand its essence, flow and internal poetry, to feel and move Tango. But to me, its worth it.

:yeah:

Don’t get me wrong, I love Tango, but there are times when I need to have a rant

Maybe we need a tongue in cheek emoticon :hug:

[Lynn]

Don’t get me wrong, I love Tango, but there are times when I need to have a rant Absolutely, sorry didn't mean to imply you couldn't have a moan!:hug: I've done that myself on this very thread - tango can be frustrating and its good to share our frustrations as well as the highlights.

[JonD]

"Tango Nuevo" is, I guess, the umbrella for all this fusion that's going on. I don't have a problem with it but you aren't going to be able to dance AT unless you learn the technique and the style of the dance no matter how many fusion classes you take.


and probably Mango by now
Yup - the 6 day luscious, juicy, fruity, exotic AT extravaganzas down here in Devon are called the "Tango Mango". (OK, it's in a primary school near Paignton during most half-terms - fab floor though and normally some good teachers). Come down (http://www.tangoindevon.co.uk/tangomango.html) and sample one!


JonD, do you know if there are any AT teacher credentials?
I don't think there are. The worst AT class I've ever been to was given by a bloke who has the basic ballroom qualification. Heaven knows what he thought he was doing trying to teach AT as he didn't have the foggiest. It was horrendous and probably put those who were new to the dance off for life. It didn't help that he smelt of cat food. I think there is just as much a range of AT teaching as there is in any other dance form and you've just got to be a bit careful who you go to - whether you are in Buenos Aires or Devon.

It's great that Lynn's classes seem to have returned to sanity but I'm intrigued by CeeCee's! I keep getting emails from this guy (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/octavian.janner/tangoinlondon/index.htm). Anyone know anything about them?

Rehearsals for the dreaded routine went well this weekend - Ruth saw it on Saturday and liked it, then we videoed it on Sunday and it looked OK to me. I'm a bit more relaxed about it all as a result. Julie has done an amazing job on the choreography; she really is very talented.

[RogerR]

Heard today from Jill Barrett (see Tango al Fresco above) she would be happy to run tango classes leading up to the Tango al Fresco picnic in Regents park this summer, Any interest??

[CeeCee]

Estango, swango, jango, mango!


Originally posted by ducasi
That was one of the things that put me off Salsa, and worries me about Tango.
Ah Duncan, don’t be worried about Tango, just give in to it and enjoy it.

Originally posted by philsmove
And that another problem with Tango
Not only have you got to learn a whole new dance
You have learn a new language as well
Problema? No hay problema?
New dance, new language, great, just adds to the attraction for me.

Originally posted by Lynn
Tango is not an easy dance to learn, the terms are not easy, the music seems a bewildering maze of artists and styles. I know it will take me years to understand its essence, flow and internal poetry, to feel and move Tango. But to me, its worth it.
Absolutely

Originally posted by JonD
Yup - the 6 day luscious, juicy, fruity, exotic AT extravaganzas down here in Devon are called the "Tango Mango".
A whole week for £40! How do they do that?
The programme looks great I’d have loved to pop down to Devon for a few days to give it a try. Will there be another?

Originally posted by JonD
I keep getting emails from this guy. Anyone know anything about them?.
Ooh ooh ooh, I do I do, I’ve been to one of his classes. I posted a quick review #181 on page 10 of this thread. He introduces himself as Octavian but he’s apparently also known as Octaviano! Fancy more info?

The journey continues...

[JonD]

A whole week for £40! How do they do that?
The programme looks great I’d have loved to pop down to Devon for a few days to give it a try. Will there be another?
Ruth is cooking something up for May I believe, although details haven't been published yet - if you email her she'll add you to the mailing list. There isn't a Mango in April as Ruth is taking her children away on holiday. The Mango is great fun but I don't get down to them as much as I'd like. I normally do three or four evenings after the large group class has finished. Gisela is coming over from Barcelona to teach in May and June so she'll certainly be there. She is Argentinean, lovely and very good; we did a three hour workshop with her on feeling what happens to your foot as you take a step (and ESG thought an hour of walking was perverse)!


Ooh ooh ooh, I do I do, I’ve been to one of his classes. I posted a quick review #181 on page 10 of this thread.
Aha - the charming Romanian! I'd forgotten that post - I'm getting senile. Pray tell; what more information is there?

[frodo]

I think it's been done. New classes just starting in Sydney: http://www.funkytango.com/sydney_tango_fusion_questions.htm

What is tango fusion?
Tango fusion is the tango of this millennium, the fusion of tango with contemporary dance and music.

It is becoming extremely popular amongst young and young in spirit dancers – from Buenos Aires to Berlin, San Francisco to Tokio and now also in Sydney – who love the freedom to improvise to any music, such as electronic tango, swing, hip hop, house, salsa, reggae, classical or your favourite movie soundtracks.

I understood dancing Tango to non traditional Tango music was NeoTango - I think I'm probably mixed up though.

BTW - I've heard of a Mango competition - (that's Mambo and Tango)

[timbp]

I understood dancing Tango to non traditional Tango music was NeoTango - I think I'm probably mixed up though.

I don't really know, but I think NeoTango is non-traditional Tango music -- that is, it's still tango music, but with influences from other styles, which is different to dancing tango to other styles of music.

[Lynn]

I don't really know, but I think NeoTango is non-traditional Tango music -- that is, it's still tango music, but with influences from other styles, which is different to dancing tango to other styles of music.The problem seems to be that there are various terms - Neo Tango (not sure if I've come across that one before), Nuevo Tango, Nu Tango - and sometimes they seem to be applied to the music, sometimes the dancing. So its easy to get confused and seems there maybe isn't always consistent application of the terms.

[philsmove]

The problem seems to be that there are various terms - Neo Tango (not sure if I've come across that one before), Nuevo Tango, Nu Tango - and sometimes they seem to be applied to the music, sometimes the dancing. So its easy to get confused and seems there maybe isn't always consistent application of the terms.
:yeah:



#
And that another problem with Tango
Not only have you got to learn a whole new dance
You have learn a new language as well


PS if you come to a certaine class in Bristol, just dont mention Nuevo Tango,:whistle:

[Clive Long]

<< snip >>
PS if you come to a certaine class in Bristol, just dont mention Nuevo Tango,:whistle:
Come on Phil, you gotta tell us what happens.
Nuevo Tango
Nuevo Tango
Nuevo Tango

Look into my eyes. You know you want to. You need to tell us. Look into my eyes.

CRL

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn
The problem seems to be that there are various terms - Neo Tango (not sure if I've come across that one before), Nuevo Tango, Nu Tango - and sometimes they seem to be applied to the music, sometimes the dancing.
I guess Phil’s teachers in Bristol wont be interested in the Nuevotango Festival II in Seattle in May www.nuevotango.com featuring the music of Narcotango which worries me a little, (just a little).

After our other hybrids, estango, mango, jango and swango, if Narcotango has anything at all to do with narcolepsy then our passion is doomed.

[Clive Long]

I think I will camp out in this Tango thread for a little while as in my book Chiswick is West London, not North London.

Dabbling with the dark side
********************************

Yes, I sampled the Federico experience tonight.

I arrived in a fluster thinking I was late (this is a BIG issue for me at the moment - ask CeeCee - well best if you don't as she is getting a bit irritated with the subject).

I was greeted at the door by a young lady with dark flowing "Tango" hair. Rather than asking me for my money she asked if I had the correct shoes. I said I had shoes that I danced in. I was told that wasn't what she asked, she wanted to know if I had dance shoes. I said I didn't realise I had come to a lesson in English Grammar and should I leave now? Icy pause. I decided to show her my shoes. They passed. (The shoes come up again later).

I chatted to a couple of people then when CeeCee arrived we had a quick shuffle around the floor before the action began.

Federico is a (slightly) camp bully. I'd say he gets you moving rather than concentrating on balance, walking, turns etc. I can see the appeal in his approach. He says you can't learn Tango without suede under your feet (the shoes again, the shoes). We started with some nice walking exercises (I was starting to feel on home territory now).

The group was separated into beginners and intermediates - in fact those with suede soles and those without, the Big F declared (shoes, shoes, shoes).

I put myself in the beginners as you never know what will be thrown at you. I was actually happy about this as we did some Giro thingy and the pace (slow, dead stop) was right for me. Caro (door woman) was actually quite an effective and supportive teacher of us beginners. After about 3 minutes of the class some woman stomped over to the side picked up her coat and stormed out. Caro explained she had the wrong shoes (this is getting a bit obsessive methinks). Federico carried on as if nothing had happened, or at least it was a regular occurrence and some "casualties" were to be expected in his lesson.

No more shoe-related incidents for the rest of the evening except we were lectured about them during "notices". Strangely .... Federico had a wide selection of shoes for sale .... (no , no I'm not that unkind ...). One point the great man made was he is holding a dance for "you" (that's us) the people who can't dance. What I finally understood is that is the place you go and don't make excuses - just try what you can. That's what I'm needing right now.

Now, I really enjoyed the class and the dance afterwards was a great opportunity to practise. I had never noticed before how nice a venue Chiswick Town Hall is.

I will go when I can but Dome on Wednesdays is a milonga and Tufnell park is miles easier for me to get to at the moment. You can never have too much Tango.

[timbp]

Lesson 5

I'm sure I mentioned last week that I was doing too much. Well, I did try to cut down. I didn't dance on Friday or Monday. But as I arrived at this class my right foot was hurting enough to affect my normal walk, let alone a tango walk.

We started as always with walking down the the room, then backwards up the room a couple of times.

We then got another little talk about the improvisational nature of the dance. The teacher mentioned that when he learned, there were very few tango dancers in Sydney, so there was plenty of room on the dance floor, and they all thought they were so good because of all the fancy patterns they could dance. Then he went to Buenos Aires, and he couldn't dance, because there was no room on the floor to do the patterns he knew and he didn't know how to improvise. He said he teaches the patterns as a tool for learning different types of steps, but we should not expect to dance them as they are.
I know some contributors to this thread are uncomfortable with the idea of the basic 8 or any patterns, but I think this teacher understands the traps. The entire structure of the course impresses me more every week.

He quickly demonstrated the things we've done so far (as a reminder), and put some music on for us to practise. Once again I was partnerless, and danced with the female teacher (sharing her with the other single guy). It seems I am not moving my centre, my "energy", when I try to take a small step (big steps are fine). My task now is to vary my step size, and ensure that every step is definite and clear to my partner, whether it's a step of 2 inches or of 2 feet.

We then started on this weeks (and next weeks) pattern -- the wheel. The teachers demonstrated first. It's simple enough: guy in the middle, as the axis, leads the girl in a circle around him. After the demonstration, the man next to me said, "I've done this course three times, and I'm just starting to understand how to do this pattern."

In this pattern, the woman is doing forward ocho, open step, backwards ocho, open step, forwards ocho, to travel around the man. The man is starting with weight on the left, transferring weight to the right while turning the upper body to the right, and eventually pivoting about 180 degrees on the right foot, while keeping perfectly on balance, with axis remaining on a single point. Unfortunately, that pivot on the right foot was impossible with my sore foot. Fortunately, I could pretend my lack of balance was due to the pain in my foot, not my incompetence.

What interested me most was when the teacher said (speaking to us guys alone while the girls were off learning their thing) that after the inital ocho we can expect the girls to pivot and prepare for an ocho back the other way, as that's the pattern they know from previous weeks. He said, "This is where you start to learn to lead. There are now two things you can do from a forward ocho, and you've got to make it clear whether you want another ocho, or an open step [for the wheel]."
As I said above, he understands the traps of teaching patterns, and I think this statement shows he actually uses those traps -- get the girls to learn to step through a pattern, then teach the guys to stop the girls doing that.

My feet are feeling better today. I can walk normally, but I'm still aware of some soreness. I'm trying to convince myself not to go dancing tonight, but I keep thinking that as I'm staying home friday night (and maybe Saturday as well), why not go to class tonight.

[Lory]

We then started on this weeks (and next weeks) pattern -- the wheel. The teachers demonstrated first. It's simple enough: guy in the middle, as the axis, leads the girl in a circle around him. ~snip~
In this pattern, the woman is doing forward ocho, open step, backwards ocho, open step, forwards ocho, to travel around the man. It sounds like a Giro to me?


What interested me most was when the teacher said that after the inital ocho we can expect the girls to pivot and prepare for an ocho back the other way,
Our teacher taught us right from the very beginning that the 'default' setting should be to start to go into a side step (as in the giro) after each ocho and never to assume that I'll be doing another ocho. She said its really hard for the man to lead you out of an ocho motion but it's easy to lead you into an ocho if he wants to, when you about to do a side step. (I hope that makes sense??:confused: )

As DJ said, when he had trouble with his partner last week, who was stuck in permanent ocho mode!:rolleyes:

[timbp]

It sounds like a Giro to me?
Probably. My teacher uses English names almost exclusively. You have to be very quick to catch a non-English move name from him.
I had always thought a giro was both partners revolving around a common axis. So what's that called?



Our teacher taught us right from the very beginning that the 'default' setting should be to start to go into a side step (as in the giro) after each ocho and never to assume that I'll be doing another ocho.
And I would say the "default" ought to be to remain with weight perfectly balanced over one foot, ready to move wherever the man chooses to lead you.

But if, as you say, it is harder to lead a woman into an open step than another ocho, then my teacher's approach of requiring the men to lead the open step when the women might expect an ocho should develop clearer leads (or it could develop more forceful "do as I tell you, woman" leads).

[David Bailey]

{ snip shoe review }
So that's why CeeCee went there... Lynn, I think you've found your spiritual home :innocent:


I will go when I can but Dome on Wednesdays is a milonga and Tufnell park is miles easier for me to get to at the moment. You can never have too much Tango.
Hmmm, maybe we should organise a trip to the Dome on a Weds night?

[David Bailey]

It sounds like a Giro to me?
Me too - although the "guy is the axis" thing is not exactly the way I think of it, more like two people revolving around the common axis. The guy has to turn (or at least move) to lead the giro - something I keep forgetting :blush:

Whilst it's hard work to learn all these Spanish names for moves, at least they have the advantage of consistency - everyone knows what an ocho is, what a giro is, and so on. Whereas making up names means that if / when you switch teacher, you'll have to relearn the names anyway at that point.

(Tim, I assumed you turned when leading this wheel move?)


Our teacher taught us right from the very beginning that the 'default' setting should be to start to go into a side step (as in the giro) after each ocho and never to assume that I'll be doing another ocho. She said its really hard for the man to lead you out of an ocho motion but it's easy to lead you into an ocho if he wants to, when you about to do a side step. (I hope that makes sense??:confused: )
Interesting... I totally agree that the difference between another ocho and a sidestep is crucial, and that the follower should absolutely not auto-ocho ( grrr... flashback... grrrr... ), it's difficult enough to lead a giro properly as it is.

And possibly anticipating a sidestep may be good practice, as it ensures the leader specifically has to lead an ocho - and I'd much rather have a follower anticipate a sidestep than an ocho. However, I also agree with Tim - surely anticipating anything is bad? :confused:

[timbp]

(Tim, I assumed you turned when leading this wheel move?)
Yes. I did a full 360 degree turn. But my centre was the axis about which both I and the lady turned.

[David Bailey]

Yes. I did a full 360 degree turn. But my centre was the axis about which both I and the lady turned.
That may well be the proper way to describe what happens, I'm not sure... It definitely sounds like a giro though - and there are lots of giro variations I believe.

JonD? Help... :blush:

[JonD]

Tim, I like your teacher! I totally agree with him about figures - they are tools to teach the elements and techniques of the dance. Without them it'd be horribly difficult to learn to pivot, to step and to lead but you should never assume that you'll dance them "as given". Ruth taught us very, very few figures in the first year or so. I was really frustrated for ages whenever I tried to freestyle as I felt I had no "words" to express myself and that my dancing was boring. It was only when I started to have the confidence to combine different elements that I started to feel that I could flow in the dance. Now I've been taught tons and tons of figures but I can't do many of them! They all need work after the lesson to perfect the techniques, improve balance and accuracy etc. but we only seem to work on a few - fortunately Julie takes comprehensive notes! I guess that eventually my technique will improve to the point where I can "get" a move in a class and do it afterwards without further study - roll on that glorious day (which will probably occur in about 20 years).

Giro it is - or a molinete. Giro just means a "revolution" - the rev counter in my Alfa is labelled "Giri". A molinete is where the guy turns about his axis so I guess it's both! Whenever anyone mentions a giro I think of the movement Tim describes as a "wheel" and I refer to "giro footwork" when I mean forward ocho, side, backward ocho, side. I guess that any turning movement can be referred to as a giro. Did your followers manage to stay on the circumference of the circle or did they push you off balance as they went round you? Julie has a habit of "cutting the corner" on her side steps (when I do a calesita - all same but with the lady in the middle - I'm perfectly on the circumference of the circle all the time without fail and any wobbling is nothing to do with me, honest).

If you want to make it more difficult, lead the lady to the point where she is about to start her backward ocho - as she pivots into it the guy pivots so that you are right hip to right hip assuming you are turning anti-clockwise. Then the guy draws a semi-circle on the floor with the toe of his left foot while pivoting to his left on his right foot as the lady takes her backward and side steps. There you are: giro with lapis (the pencil)! Julie put two slow, synchopated ones in her choreography for this routine we're doing tomorrow - she's got a mean streak!

Ah, so the charming Romanian also sells shoes. I have a feeling that he turned up at the Tango Mango last Saturday - not to sell shoes but to dance. I wasn't there but I'll ask Ruth to confirm. By the way, this Gringo got the impression that leather soles were preferred in Buenos Aires (although I personally prefer suede).

[Lynn]

Lots of shoe stuff... Now I love dance shoes, and love showing them to new dancers if asked (as I frequently am), explain why I'm wearing them etc, but I would never act in a way that made anyone feel bad for not wearing 'proper' dance shoes. No point in making Tango accessible with a teaching style then creating barriers for people over footwear. (Though actually having suitable shoes available for sale sounds like a good idea.)


So that's why CeeCee went there... Lynn, I think you've found your spiritual home :innocent:CeeCee and I have already had lengthy shoe related discussions, complete with links and pics. :drool:

[Lynn]

A molinete is where the guy turns about his axis so I guess it's both! Oh, that sounds a bit like the word for 'windmill' - la molina, I think. (A friend was going to teach me Spanish years ago, we went to the language labs at the local uni but she noticed a nice Spanish guy, who she met again the following week eventually married. Lovely story but I never got round to the Spanish lessons.)

[philsmove]

A quick up date from Bristol

At a few of the classes recently, there has been men over
So the men have taken it in turns, to try and learn to follow
One really learns the importance of a positive lead
If the lead hesitates, one naturally tried to predict what they are going to do next; needless to say one always predicts wrong
On Wednesday evenings the teacher is CESAR VELASQUEZ:respect:
He is very good and I think may also teach in London
Tango West have an absolute beginners class this coming Sunday

[Lynn]

A quick up date from Bristol

At a few of the classes recently, there has been men over
*Goes off to check cheap flights to Bristol*

[Lory]

I also agree with Tim - surely anticipating anything is bad? :confused:
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I totally agree too :flower:

but there comes a point where we have to introduce some fluidity (and speed David:na: ) and I suppose this is where we don't want to fall into the trap of 'the auto ocho' and the only way out of that seems to be, to start to go into a side step and see if your partner changes your direction? :confused:

As I said, I'm NO expert, we're all in this together! :hug:

[CeeCee]

the Federico experience


Originally posted by Clive Long
Yes, I sampled the Federico experience tonight.

I arrived in a fluster thinking I was late (this is a BIG issue for me at the moment - ask CeeCee - well best if you don't as she is getting a bit irritated with the subject).
No I'm not, xx


Originally posted by Clive Long
Yes, I sampled the Federico experience tonight.


Rather than asking me for my money she asked if I had the correct shoes.


He says you can't learn Tango without suede under your feet (the shoes again, the shoes).
So you were subjected to footwear interrogation?
I’ve never been asked anything about my shoes and I’ve never worn Tango shoes, just leather soled jive shoes. I’ve been to a few of Fed’s classes at different venues and he has always given the shoe speech.
On each occasion I’ve treated his remarks with the contempt they deserve. Yes, he has shoes for sale but we can choose whether to buy them or not. I bought a pair when I was ready.


Originally posted by Clive Long
Federico is a (slightly) camp bully.


After about 3 minutes of the class some woman stomped over to the side picked up her coat and stormed out.
She wasn’t a happy bunny and was most indignant about being put in the beginners’ class because she’s been dancing since she was two.
Well I get the impression that it’s common for Tango teachers to make you start as a beginner regardless of your dance background, right?


Originally posted by Lynn
I would never act in a way that made anyone feel bad for not wearing 'proper' dance shoes. No point in making Tango accessible with a teaching style then creating barriers for people over footwear. (Though actually having suitable shoes available for sale sounds like a good idea.)
Lynn, you’re absolutely right and your response to Clive’s post is valid as he gave a superb account of the evening’s entertainment. The funny thing is that I was there and I roared with laughter when I read Clive’s review because we obviously saw it differently.

Fed is a little lamb and I imagined that he's not to be taken seriously.
So he likes to sell shoes, we buy them or we don’t.


Originally posted by DJ
Hmmm, maybe we should organise a trip to the Dome on a Weds night?
Oh no, more decisions, Dome… Chiswick… Dome… Chiswick…

p.s. congratulations David 1500 reps! Wow!
p.p.s. this Tango obsession is way out of control, I shouldn't even be on the Forum because I haven't started packing for Storm yet!




I didn't choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues...

[David Bailey]

but there comes a point where we have to introduce some fluidity (and speed David:na: ) and I suppose this is where we don't want to fall into the trap of 'the auto ocho'
Blimey, thanks for reminding me, I've got a Tango class in 17 minutes. :eek:

I'm not sure about the "handling at speed" thing, but it's a good point - coming out of ochos at speed must be very tricky unless you have to be led into them at every turn, so to speak.

[Lynn]

the Federico experience

Interesting to hear a different account of the same evening. Course there are some people who don't need any encouragement to buy dance shoes. :whistle: (Who? Me?:innocent: )



p.s. congratulations David 1500 reps! Wow! And I notice he doesn't even rep tart any more - he just draws rep like a magnet now. Could be something to do with his posts, I suppose. :rolleyes:

p.p.s. this Tango obsession is way out of control, I shouldn't even be on the Forum because I haven't started packing for Storm yet! I'm packed! But then I do have to go now to someones house for dinner - or rather about 1/2 an hour ago...

[David Bailey]

Last night's class, at Finchley, with the Long One:

No shoes were mentioned at any point during the class, which is a good thing I presume. :na:

We focussed on baridas and more baridas - combined with giros.

We didn't really repeat the "side-step > sandwich > sweep" exercise from the previous week, which is a shame, but that's something I can work on.

We did baridas in giros, from the backstep, and then on the frontstep - the frontstep is much more difficult. We also linked in some base patterns we'd learnt earlier, and were shown how these patterns could work with a Barida.

Overall, I thought the class was great - both Kicca and Keiji were back on form, compared to the problems with last week's session - they worked well together, the class clearly had structure and goals, and most of us got there. Even numbers, so everyone danced all the time. We changed partners every 10-15 minutes, and fortunately I didn't get "ocho-on-steroids" woman at all (:respect: to Woger for taking her :) )

I've got a lot of stuff to practise of course, but at least I know what I need to focus my practising on. I even invented a step (front giro step, followed by a barida-flick straight into a back ocho. OK, fair enough, the step was immediately pronounced "horrible" by Keiji, for several reasons, but it was fun :)

Incidentally, I discovered my "weak side" - I'm truly poor at leading giros anti-clockwise, my right shoulder seems to be getting in the way all the time :sad: Still, at least I know where I've been going wrong with those, and I guess that's something I need to work on.

[JonD]

I even invented a step
Kudos! I've invented some imaginative trips but never a step! Brilliant.

Julie and I did the "Technical Rehearsal" for this demonstration last night. It was just lighting, music and that stuff but we still danced through it 3 times. I was incredibly nervous for the first one - it really surprised me - and so was Julie. There was nobody there apart from the Director and some technical bods, plus a flamenco dancer who'd been doing her rehearsal before us. (She was tremendous, that was probably one reason for my nerves). We made a few errors in the routine each time but managed to fudge our way through them. The Director's main concern was teaching me to bow correctly - all I wanted to do was run away! Still, the proof of the pudding will be tonight. Eeek!

I went along to the "Level 2" class in Exeter on Tuesday. Ruth did a musicality class where she asked us leaders to keep it as simple as possible and encouraged the followers to try and "flavour" the dance with their interpretation of the music - using adornments, suggesting changes of tempo, taking time, altering their "mood" (playful, romantic etc.). She played Tangos in different styles and we got about 3 attempts at each Tango with the same partner. Then she changed the music and we changed partner. I found it really difficult to keep it simple and to sense when my follower wanted to "play". I can do it with Julie but I've been dancing with her a long time - I think I was trying too hard to lead positively as the followers aren't that experienced. The followers found it pretty tricky as well but that was to be expected as it was a new concept. All in all, a fun and thought provoking class.

One thing I did notice was that the followers don't really have any concept of frame or tension. I mentioned it to Ruth at the end of the class and asked her how to deal with it - she advised just leading strongly from my centre and not worrying about the fact that the follower's right arm was moving around a lot (either stretching my left arm out almost straight or folding back beyond the follower's shoulder). Ruth called it the "dreaded open arm" and it's something she hasn't worked on with them yet - it's something I'll have to work on as well because my frame is obviously moving if their arms are. The one thing you can guarantee is that nobody could lead those ladies with their arms!

[JonD]

We did the demonstration last night. It went OK and we got a huge round of applause and some lovely comments afterwards. The Director got it wrong and put our music on before we were even at the curtain to enter stage left! We started about a bar late, had to freestyle our way into the first figure, then I realised that we were in the wrong place on the stage and so we freestyled ourselves into the right place in time for the next major figure. Not a great start but nobody noticed and it went fine from there. There was one point where I suddenly became really nervous but I just focussed on my connection with Julie and it passed. The floor was terrible - sort of lino stuff with the occasional ruck where seams joined - which made turning quite difficult.

I don't think I'll ever be doing another one. I was a bit nervous before hand but there was no "buzz", I didn't enjoy the performance particularly and I didn't get a "high" afterwards so the stage obviously holds no appeal for me. I'll just concentrate on learning to dance and leave the "fantasy Tango" stuff for those with a desire to perform and the skills to do it well.

I'm glad it's over! No video I'm afraid - there wasn't anyone there to do it for us and nobody filmed the whole show.

[Clive Long]

Jon,

Well done for all the preparation and coping with the technical hitches. You probably have the right personal attributes and attitude to be an excellent performer.

Clive

[CeeCee]

Happiness is… the search for the perfect Tango class.

Now the Storm is over, we’re back and concentrating on the serious stuff.

A fellow Tango aficionado has advised me to quit flitting about and pick a class to attend regularly, where he feels I’ll benefit from continuity of teaching. Well, I agree and when I find one that I want to go to every week I will, until then the search continues.

Note to Lynn, as previously discussed, we Londoners are spoilt so as I like you and don’t want to depress you or cause you unhappiness, may I politely suggest that you ignore the next paragraph of this post…

Yesterday afternoon I had a dilemma. I simply couldn’t decide where to Tango last night as I had no less than six venues to choose from. Should I try somewhere new, or somewhere familiar, somewhere recommended or never heard of, stay local or drive across town? I sought the counsel of the Forum’s Wise Tanguero who expertly and sensibly after a process of elimination helped me make my choice Thanks DJ x

The class of eight women and three (frightened looking) men began with fifteen minutes of walking exercises to fast paced Tango Vals music. This included stepping forward forward side, back back side, clockwise at speed to an entire track. Why did we do this? I’ve no idea. Not a word was uttered we went through the motions as if performing a military exercise. I suppressed the urge to laugh and enjoyed the aerobic, cardiovascular aspect of the session.

The instructor had an endearing teaching quality which involved random changes of direction and speed, backwards, forwards, sideways and diagonally, with no warning, no warning at all. Believe me the music was fast, consequently, there was considerable tripping over and bumping into each other, providing a comical element to the learning process and far from confidence building. Good grief!

After what felt like an eternity spent on the basic 8 with and without the cross, we were told that the lady has to know when to cross or she will be in the wrong place and she will make the routine hard for the man. The last couple of minutes (!) he introduced the ocho. Without reference to leading, following, tension, connection, balance or position, the guys had one chance to lead it down the hall and I can only assume that less body and arm movement would be required to control a combine harvester. What a negative way to end a lesson.

For the ladies, there was a lot of, standing around, waiting and chatting, when I discovered that a few of the women go there because they believe he is the only Tango teacher in London.

The lesson ended.
I felt cheated.
I still needed my Tango fix so there was nothing for it but to go to another class. En route I sang along to Breathe by Kate Bush. We can tango to that right? (Apologies to the Forumite who phoned me but I couldn’t chat as I was racing between venues.)

I was back on familiar territory, Fed's quirky sense of humour, class of thirty, great atmosphere, keen students, smiling leaders, exercises explained, technique discussed, ladies taking turns to lead and follow, so no standing around, no waiting.



Originally posted by El Señor Long
asked if I had the correct shoes

(The shoes come up again later).

He says you can't learn Tango without suede under your feet (the shoes again, the shoes).

The group was separated into beginners and intermediates - in fact those with suede soles and those without, the Big F declared (shoes, shoes, shoes).
In honour of CL I purposely chose not to wear my newly purchased, suede soled Tango shoes. Disappointingly, Fed didn’t do his shoe speech once, not once. That was weird because he’s always done the shoe speech before.

Anyway, back to the lesson, I still don’t see what the fuss is about. I’ve had numerous warnings about his teaching. From what I’ve experienced in my quest for perfection he doesn’t teach more moves or less technique than the other teachers I’ve tried so he still gets my vote.





Sueño el Tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…

[David Bailey]

For the ladies, there was a lot of, standing around, waiting and chatting, when I discovered that a few of the women go there because they believe he is the only Tango teacher in London.
:rofl: - I agree with the teacher who told us there seem to be more tango teachers than students in london...

:respect: to CeeCee for trying all these venues, you are clearly the London Tango Venue Guru now :)

[philsmove]

Two Tango class in one night :respect:





The class of eight women and three (frightened looking) men began with fifteen minutes of walking exercises to fast paced Tango Vals music. This included stepping forward forward side, back back side, clockwise at speed to an entire track. Why did we do this? I’ve no idea. Not a word was uttered we went through the motions as if performing a military exercise. I suppressed the urge to laugh and enjoyed the aerobic, cardiovascular aspect of the session.

]




Some sort of walking exercised is fairly common at the start of most of the classes I attend but 15 min seems excessive

Recently Caesar got us to form a circle and then palm to palm, walk in round in time to the music changing direction at his prompt

[Lynn]

Note to Lynn, as previously discussed, we Londoners are spoilt so as I like you and don’t want to depress you or cause you unhappiness, may I politely suggest that you ignore the next paragraph of this post… OK, that's it. I'm relocating.
(Nice to talk Tango shoes with you at Storm!:hug: )

[Lory]

Two Tango class in one night :respect:

And that's after being at Storm for the weekend :what: :worthy:

I'm beginning to wonder is CeeCee's human?:wink:

[David Bailey]

I'm beginning to wonder is CeeCee's human?
That's nothing - I heard she single-handedly parked all the cars, demo'd all the lessons, cooked all the food, and drank all the water at the weekend.

I'm not sure about the last one, however, that sounds a little far-fetched to me.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn
OK, that's it. I'm relocating.
It’s only a matter of time…


originally posted by philsmove
Two Tango class in one night :respect:

originally posted by Lory
And that's after being at Storm for the weekend :what: :worthy:

I'm beginning to wonder is CeeCee's human? :wink:

originally posted by DJ
That's nothing - I heard she single-handedly parked all the cars, demo'd all the lessons, cooked all the food, and drank all the water at the weekend.

I'm not sure about the last one, however, that sounds a little far-fetched to me.

Ha ha, now I know I’m in the right company. No suggestion that I might be crazy and out of control, you guys respect me for it. Why? I guess cos we share the same passion.

Thank you, I'm flattered but the explanation is really quite simple, I’m a lady in love with the mystery of Tango. As I said to a forumite this morning, this is going to be a long journey and there are choices to be made, sit down along the way and admire the view (much like the students in the first class last night, going nowhere, fast) or keep travelling.

There is much to discover and so little time.






Sueño el Tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…

[LMC]

5th lesson

Kicca and demo (whose name I forget) are everything that Weginald and the Repped One say - fantastic class. Kicca talking about the embrace just made me want to go and demand a hug from the nearest random man (I didn't) - :drool:

It won't surprise regular readers to hear that we did lots of walking. Lots and lots and lots of walking. It were great. I learned that if I focus, my standing posture is actually quite good. Unfortunately it all goes t*ts up when I start moving, and since dancing involves moving*, I have a lot of work to do on my posture, frame, connection, balance, weight transfer, "centre" and a whole bunch of other stuff which would make this list even more far too long than it is already. I knew that I need to work on all that, but a few things "clicked" into place for how I can make those improvements happen. Until then, I'd had lots of good advice, but somehow was frustrated at my own inability to implement it. Now I feel like I can move forward.

*shameless attempt to win Best Statement of the Obvious award at the BFG

As I was still tired last night, my frame and connection were sloppy. But my awareness has improved no end - so there's hope.

And we did crosses. Yes, a cross can be led, we've been there (although we have a long way to go until that discussion reaches the lofty status of First Move footwork) :devil:

Fun bit of the evening: there we all were, walking round in the embrace and my current partner and I were 'corrected' by Kicca. One turn round the room, Kicca's demo came and told us to relax. "Don't think about it", he said. Discussion ensued between the two of us... keep the connection and frame, shoulders down and neck relaxed, maintain the distance - but don't think about it. Watch the lead's chest, make sure you keep your weight on the balls of your feet, don't lean, straighten your leg when you step - but don't think about it. Stay on the beat, don't bounce, keep your feet in contact with the floor - but don't think about it. "What did the Romans ever do for us?" asked my partner - broke me up :rofl:

I asked Kicca when the next Monday night 'course' (that DJ and CRL did) would start and if there were still places, and she said I could turn up any time - well, on a Monday, obviously. So I shall switch to those immediately (well, next Monday). These Tuesday night basics classes are good, but as they do something different every week, I've not really been getting a sense of 'progression', although my dancing overall has, I believe (hope) improved.

Lynn - "thank you for the music" :hug:

[timbp]

Lesson 6

Very similar to last week's lesson, as we're still working on the giro. Started with walking, then a bit of time to practise the patterns we've covered, then revision of the giro, then just keep practising. With interruptions when Peter had something to say to the class.

This week Peter talked mostly about connection -- how the lead is transmitted through the connection which comes from the frame; how this won't work if either partner doesn't maintain good frame; good frame depends on good posture and balance. He then said we'll probably find it easier to dance (or connect) when we try close embrace; they teach in open embrace because it helps each partner to learn to maintain their own balance and posture.

Women were advised not to try to "help" the guys. Following should be like meditation, just live in that one moment, don't try to predict the future; even if you know the guy is trying to lead a particular step, do what he leads, not what you know he's trying to lead.
Peter said the woman must focus on the man's centre and follow it, not look at the other guys she wants to dance with. Clare (the female teacher/demonstrator) said the woman must focus on her partner's centre and follow it, but she can look at anyone she likes.

At one point Peter was demonstrating dancing with Clare and talking about how she has no idea what's coming next. Then he stopped, and stepped out of the embrace and started pointing out how Clare had her weight over her left foot, her right foot extended behind her, hips facing in the direction she had been moving, shoulders facing almost 90 degrees to the right because that's where Peter had been and she was trying to keep her centre oriented to his, arms in the embrace position. This probably took a minute, maybe more, and Clare never moved. Then Peter stepped back into the embrace and continued the movement.





Until then, I'd had lots of good advice, but somehow was frustrated at my own inability to implement it. Now I feel like I can move forward.
But the women tend to spend more time moving backwards -- perhaps you should work on that more :rofl:


And we did crosses. Yes, a cross can be led, we've been there (although we have a long way to go until that discussion reaches the lofty status of First Move footwork) :devil:
I didn't really feel I was leading the cross tonight. Maybe the girls were just doing it, or maybe I was leading it without thinking about it (I wish). At one stage when I was dancing with Clare I felt a bit of back lead coming into the cross (she rotated my shoulders, as she stepped), so I'm pretty sure I was not really leading it.


"Don't think about it", he said.
keep the connection and frame, shoulders down and neck relaxed, maintain the distance - but don't think about it. Watch the lead's chest, make sure you keep your weight on the balls of your feet, don't lean,
Great advice. I sort of discovered it for myself tonight. One problem I've had over the previous weeks is looking down. I've been aware of it, but unable to stop myself doing it. I know looking down is a typical beginners' trap, and it's one of the few things I'll mention to beginners during freestyle ceroc, but I couldn't stop doing it.

At one point when we were practising, Peter stopped the class and told all the guys to look out around the floor, not into their partner's eyes or at her forehead or "down". We started again, and 30 seconds later he told me individually to stop looking down.
Several minutes later I finally got my resolution together. I knew I knew where I had to step, so I made a deliberate effort to forget about my feet, forget about my partner's feet, forget everything except where I want my partner to move, look out the window, and lead my partner in a circle around me. And it was the best giro I had led all night.

Most relevant (I think) is that once I stopped looking at my partner I had only the physical connection (frame) to know where she was. And I was more aware through the connection; I wasn't trying to guess by the angle of the chest/shoulders which foot she was on -- I knew because I could feel it.



straighten your leg when you step
I don't think our class has been told this.


Stay on the beat
We're not up to that. I am now making an effort to dance to the music, but I think the teachers don't mind -- they want us to get the technique and steps, then we can put it to music. (Or maybe I'm projecting. My attitude at present is to learn how to do the dance, then put it to music.)


keep your feet in contact with the floor
this may be a matter of definition, but I've been told "skim" the floor. I don't think of that as contact; I think of it as being as close as possible without contact. Of course, the important message is don't pick up your feet.


Peter goes to Buenos Aires on Saturday for 5 weeks (his partner Lisa is already there), so the last two classes of the beginners' course will be run by Clare. Then there's a couple of weeks without classes (I might check out the funky tango classes), before the new courses start after Easter.

[philsmove]

5th lesson

Stay on the beat,:
I think this has been suggested before but playing Tango before or on the way to the class, certainly helps get me in Tango mode

[Lynn]

I think this has been suggested before but playing Tango before or on the way to the class, certainly helps get me in Tango modeOr listening to tango music obsessively while driving, working...

[JonD]

I went along to the beginner and "level 2" classes in Exeter last night. I really enjoyed it after a conducting a very difficult appraisal at work followed by a visit to the dentist - I know how to organise my life!

Ruth taught the beginners the Salida last night - the first time I've ever known her to use it. Having read all the comments about it on this thread I watched with a great deal of interest. I'm pleased to say that she stressed several times that it's a figure that is useful for teaching but doesn't get danced in it's entirety very often and she stressed that there is a lead for the cross! We did an interesting and rather difficult exercise; you know how the Salida tends to draw the couple over to the left because you walk outside to the left, well we started in the near left-hand corner of the floor and had to try and lead it so we arrived in the far right-hand corner. Tricky! She was also getting us to think about how the 8 beat pattern fitted into the music. I enjoyed myself, spending the first half of the class leading Henry, Ruth's partner, who wanted to improve his following and then dancing with a few beginner ladies.

The Level 2 class was great. Last week we worked on musicality - particularly how the follower can "flavour" the dance by suggesting movements to the leader and using simple adornments. We started this week with the followers just dancing on their own with their eyes shut while the leaders "protected their space" (no physical contact but make sure your follower doesn't collide with anything.). Then we did the same thing with the same follower but this time keeping fingertip contact with her hands - not leading but just trying to stay connected while also protecting the follower). Then we danced with the same follower and tried to lead the kind of movements she'd made on her own - one lady seemed to like fast little "clever" steps, reversing ochos and such like while the other one I danced with loved pivots and sweeping turns. It was great fun and very interesting. After that we did some fast pivot turns from walking on parallel and opposite feet, the cross and also from ochos - almost leading boleos. I found all of these really difficult. Ruth wanted us to lead the pivot just as the follower was about to transfer her weight onto her working leg - so, in a walk, with her leg extended back and toe just touching the floor. Getting the timing was really tricky. In the end I stopped thinking about it and just tried to sense the right moment. Once I "used the force" things got a lot better. They are lovely, fairly simple movements but the execution, like so much in AT, requires precision and balance and technique. I love it! Things are made a little trickier because the ladies in the class haven't been dancing very long (there seems to be a tendency to take really small steps as if they aren't really sure where they should be going) but I'm learning an enormous amount.

Tim and LMC's posts about their classes ring so true with me. There seem to be so many things not to think about! I remember being "deconstructed" by Nahuel during my first private lesson in Buenos Aires - "Jon, step onto a straight leg .... Jon, keep your foot just brushing the floor ..... Jon, in AT you only have one leg bent at a time - one straight, one bent ........" It seemed never ending and was quite depressing (he barely said a word to Julie - the swine). There's so much that needs to become instinctive and I guess that's why we have to "walk our miles".

As for staying on the beat - well, you don't really have to. That's one of the joys. You can dance to the melody or a particular instrument or the beat or any combination. If you're walking on the beat the pivot things I was talking about tend to happen on the off-beat - you lead them between two steps (I knew there was another reason why I found them difficult).

[CeeCee]

Four stages of learning…

Originally posted by JonD
Tim and LMC's posts about their classes ring so true with me. There seem to be so many things not to think about!

There's so much that needs to become instinctive and I guess that's why we have to "walk our miles".

Originally posted by LMC
Kicca's demo came and told us to relax. "Don't think about it",

Knowing how fond we are of analysing the minutiae and subtleties of our passion, this may be of interest…

Educators have identified four stages of learning any physical skill
1) unconscious incompetence
2) conscious incompetence
3) conscious competence
4) unconscious competence

from this (http://www.tejastango.com/effortless_mastery) thought provoking article.

What stage are you at?
Anyone fancy starting a poll?







Sueño el Tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…

[philsmove]

What stage are you at?

:confused:


Beware rant coming

Out teacher did not turn up tonight :mad:

We did an hour of “exercises “

And I could not hop across London for another class :tears:


I went along to the beginner and "level 2" classes in Exeter last night. I really enjoyed it ).

anyone in Bristol want a lift to Exeter next Tuesday


I need my Tango fix:flower:

[Lynn]

Educators have identified four stages of learning any physical skill
1) unconscious incompetence
2) conscious incompetence
3) conscious competence
4) unconscious competence
I've heard that applied before - to learning to drive. How at first you have to think about what your feet and hands are doing and in what order to make the car even move off. Then you get to the stage of having to think through the MSM and changing gear to turn a corner. Then you just drive, respond to the road, road users, conditions, car, without much conscious thought.

(Then you are so busy imagining a perfect tango dance to the music on your car CD that you realise you can't recall anything about the last 5 minutes of your journey... or is that just me?)

[LMC]

That learning model is frequently used in a business context, it's been around a while, which means it's stood the test of time as a good summary.

For dancing in general - I guess the stages would be:

1) Unconscious incompetence - your average Ceroc beginner, who is learning moves, but has no idea of frame, connection, tension, etc.
2) Conscious incompetence - someone who has become aware of needing to improve 'technique'
3) Unconscious competence - many of the fabulous dancers out there who make it look sooooo easy
4) Conscious competence - more fabulous dancers - and teachers - there's little that demonstrates understanding more than being able to clearly explain something to someone else so that they understand it.

For tango, I'm somewhere between 1 and 2 I reckon - I know I'm not very good at it. And I'm sure that there's whole reams of stuff that I'm not even aware that I'm not very good at yet - but what I'm working on is enough for now (already feels like "everything" :eek: )

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn
Then you just drive, respond to the road, road users, conditions, car, without much conscious thought.
Are we all on our way to Effortless Mastery in Tango as described in Stephen Brown’s article? Can it ever be like driving a car? Surely, we are all doomed because we think too much, no I’ll rephrase that, we are all doomed because we think at all.

What I am sure of is that my feet are killing me this morning after a super night of yummy, dreamy dancing at last night’s milonga. The music was sublime, lots of Gotan Project and other techno stuff with some 1930s Polish and Turkish orchestral Tango tracks thrown in for variety.

The class beforehand was full of foot flicking, tapping, nudging, swinging moves and one called the Canary! (Don’t ask) I’m on the verge of having a real rant but suffice to say the Canary has been consigned to the bottom of my list of moves to learn or look forward to. In fact, I think I’ve found my Tango Archie/Pretzel. The Canary is far too comical for my liking and reminded me of something from a Lindy Hop cabaret.

Briefly, leader and follower side by side, facing opposite directions, right hip to right hip, he scoops her right foot off the floor with his right foot and they look like lemons swinging their feet.

Not stylish, not elegant, not for me.







Sueño el Tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…

[LMC]

... we are all doomed ...
:yeah: - in approximately 5 billion years the Sun will go supernova and none of it will matter. Shame, because I'll probably just about have mastered walking properly by then :tears:

Part of the "problem" I think is that because we are beginners, we are inevitably dancing mostly with beginners. I wouldn't mind betting that dancing freestyle with someone who can *really* lead or follow would be just wonderful - and if they are sympathetic to our beginner-ish-ness maybe we'll be able to stop thinking about it so much and JFDI!

I'm extrapolating there from my beginner days in MJ - but tango people are fewer and further between and the culture is different, as well as the dance being a lot more structured (and difficult) - so maybe we'll just have to wait a little longer is all :nice:

Personally, I already have a glimmer that the first effortless (because the leader keeps it VERY simple) dance will be well worth the wait... :drool:

[philsmove]

Brilliant beginners class tonight

We started with a “role reversal” and with even numbers; all the ladies had a go at leading

Then on to learning how NOT to lead a cross and ganchos

But there is a very big gap between beginners, and improvers most of whom have been dancing for at least two years. It seems easier for the followers to move up but very difficult for leaders

[Lynn]

Tango tonight! :clap: Feels like ages since the last class (2 weeks). And I feel like I've gone backwards. Looking forward to seeing what I missed last week.

Though I'm finding the 'grab a man right at the start' thing a bit stressful now. If you don't you run the risk of either being forced into dancing lead for the whole two hours (which I don't want to do, not at this stage) or else getting 'lost' in the rotation. (I was out of the rotation for about 1/2 hour last time.) As the pairs move round the rotation while dancing and you don't while waiting - if you jump in when they rotate again you can get very annoyed looks from the next woman when they find they are now 'out' - but what other option is there?

Sorry, there's me having another moan - second thread this week.

[Lynn]

Tonight's class was a step forward again.:D

Only 2 women over and the teacher rotated us frequently so no long periods of waiting out. At one point the teacher joined in the rotation to dance with all the leads - great idea.

I decided to wear a skirt this week and it did feel nicer dancing tango in a skirt than jeans.

We went over a few things we have done before - the 'ocho cortado' and 16 count basic (because someone asked about it) and we learned the 'barrida' which was great as she showed us some decorations - the lapis, the shoe shine :D and a little kick. One partner said I was like a frisky pony with my kick, not sure if that was a compliment or not! :rolleyes: I did like the shoe shine move though. :wink:

A milonga is planned :D (the other one I mentioned never happened) - and I can't go! :tears: Its the same night as the Ceroc NI 'All that glitters' freestyle party (1st April) which of course I will be at! But I'm not at the level yet for a milonga anyway and I'm sure there will be another one.

I think I said in the other thread that I feel I need a 'led' tango dance every so often (rather than just practicing a sequence of steps) to help me feel I'm on the right path. I was fortunate enough to get the more experienced lead in the rotation near the end and after a track or two practicing the barrida he said 'Lets just dance' and did a freestyle dance which turned out to be the last track of the night. :D

And went for coffee after class again...with a different guy this time. :wink: :innocent:

[philsmove]

Tonight's class was a step forward again.:D



Learning Tango is defiantly a two steps backward one step forward experience
Fortunately occasionally one goes four steps in the right direction

I have very similar experiences to you in Bristol and Bath were there are often men over

Last night in Bath, one of the more experience men offered to be a follower for the whole of the beginner’s class


This was great, as he explain exactly what was wrong with my lead

Tango classes; do not seem as well organised at moving round, as MJ classes

it is frustrating to pay an hour’s lesson and only have 15 minutes instruction

The etiquette of having 3 dances before changing partners does not help the practice session when there is an imbalance of numbers

As mentioned in the North London, thread the standard of teaching seems very variable, but there are some very good classes about

[Lynn]

The morning after my tango class and I now have a question (which worryingly was almost the first thing I thought when I woke up this morning, was I dreaming I was dancing perhaps?).

Normally when the man steps forward the woman steps back out of his way. In the barrida she waits for him to push her foot away (which I didn't always do, it seemed more natural to step out of his way). How do I know the difference? Is it because the feet are touching that I wait for him to push my foot away? Are there other moves where this is done?

[philsmove]

The morning after my tango class and I now have a question (which worryingly was almost the first thing I thought when I woke up this morning, was I dreaming I was dancing perhaps?).


only worry when you dont dream about dancing:hug:






Normally when the man steps forward the woman steps back out of his way. In the barrida she waits for him to push her foot away (which I didn't always do, it seemed more natural to step out of his way). How do I know the difference? Is it because the feet are touching that I wait for him to push my foot away? Are there other moves where this is done?
BarridaThe barrida refers to any move in which one or other - even both - partners sweep - or appear to sweep - their partner's foot along the floor with their own.There are many starting positions but interplay is always between two unweighted feet and the motion is controlled by rotation of the leader's torso, not his feet.

The barrida can appear to be a hooked or a magnetic "pull" or "push" depending on relative feet position; it can take place between either foot of leader and follower; and can be in either direction. It can also be linear or rotary according to the direction of the basic move that is being accentuated by the barrida. (http://www.layuega.com/barrida.htm)

[Lynn]

Thanks, I was wondering when the link turned up a picture of a church in Cambridge, presume the website is Cambridge based or linked.

I think there are only 2 or 3 more weeks of my Tango course. Don't know what I'll do then! :tears:

[Graham W]

Again not time to read all this HUGE thread but that I randomly selected a lady to dance weds (okay she was wearing black) and was rewarded with an amazing dance - felt like something out of the tango lesson,

how do u guys remeber the moves...,

G

[CeeCee]

Happiness is…

A teeny weeny bit of Buenos Aires in London

Saturday Night, 11th March, Corrientes, Mary Ward Hall, Tavistock Place, London.

The Website said 7.45, a friend said 8.00 but I arrived at 7.35 to find that the beginner’s class had started at 7.00. This is a shame because with just four people it would have been like a private lesson.

While waiting I chatted to a chap who seemed to know about every teacher at every venue, everywhere in London. He certainly had an opinion about all of them (especially our little lamb, Fed) even though he told me that he hasn’t taken lessons for a long time.

There was a reverent introduction for Pablo Pugliese, an Argentinian from Buenos Aires, who is in London for a couple of weeks teaching at classes and workshops. He is the son of Mingo and Esther Pugliese who have taught many of the current teachers and performers of Tango. (I guess these are the people Clive referred to in his post about his experiences last Wednesday).

Pablo taught the intermediate class, after dancing to a couple of tracks first he asked us to think about our ‘relationship with the floor’. Mmm… thought provoking stuff. He told us that leading from the chest puts us in the wrong position, so we spent some time finding our ‘centre’ (is it supposed to tickle?) and maintaining the distance between our centre and our partner’s centre. Pablo called the giro a turn, he called the barrida/sweep a drag. I found it interesting that he didn’t feel the need to call the moves by their Spanish names.

He continued with an amazingly inspiring class concentrating on the structure of Tango being centred around the turn. Pablo talked a lot about the turn, we practised while thinking about the relationship between the leader’s and follower’s shoulders at various stages of the turn.

Everything he said made absolute sense. All moves stem from the turn. They are all variations of the turn. He emphasised that knowledge, experience and confidence in leading and following the turn form the basis of improvisation, rendering the learning of moves unnecessary.

I was fortunate enough to dance with a fantastic leader who made it all seem so easy. I said I was fascinated by Pablo’s words and wanted to write it all down. He said “There is no need to write it down, you just have to feel it”.

I spoke to people who were teachers of Tango, or here on holiday from Buenos Aires, or living here but from Buenos Aires, or just about to return to Buenos Aires, some of them don’t take classes any more but when they ever did... they were in Buenos Aires.

The Milonga was amazing. With around 130 people I was told that there were extra dancers because of the visiting dignitaries. Pablo’s parents were treated like royalty and were obviously much respected.

The standard of dancing was awesome, inspiring and a joy to watch. The dancing was slow, languid, stylish, elegant and fluid with very few kicks, flicks and other fancy foot stuff. (Certainly, didn’t see a single canary!) So many couples moved as one complete totally integrated unit. They seemed to assume a position of the closed embrace and maintain it throughout. It was clearly evident that these people have considerable experience and knowledge of this craft and have been dancing for a long time. This is the first place I’ve been where couples actually danced to the beat of the music, stopping at the breaks, executing slow pivots, slides and sweeps during the pauses and ending on the last note of the track. These guys knew the music.

A few women danced with their eyes closed. Wow, is that the ultimate?

It was an evening of total inspiration and there was so much to be gained by just being there, soaking up the atmosphere.

We are new, very new, there is so very much to learn, our journey has only just begun and last night the destination moved much much further away.













Sueño el Tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…

[Lynn]

The standard of dancing was awesome, inspiring and a joy to watch. The dancing was slow, languid, stylish, elegant and fluid with very few kicks, flicks and other fancy foot stuff. (Certainly, didn’t see a single canary!) So many couples moved as one complete totally integrated unit. They seemed to assume a position of the closed embrace and maintain it throughout. It was clearly evident that these people have considerable experience and knowledge of this craft and have been dancing for a long time. This is the first place I’ve been where couples actually danced to the beat of the music, stopping at the breaks, executing slow pivots, slides and sweeps during the pauses and ending on the last note of the track. These guys knew the music.
A few women danced with their eyes closed. Wow, is that the ultimate?

It was an evening of total inspiration and there was so much to be gained by just being there, soaking up the atmosphere. This is what I would love to see, to experience. To be somewhere where people who have danced tango for many years just express the music, to watch, to be inspired. *sigh*

We are new, very new, there is so very much to learn, our journey has only just begun and last night the destination moved much much further away.It is such a long journey and I feel even more limited being in Belfast than I did with MJ. With MJ I could sort of manage and even progress somewhat dancing solely at weekender freestyles. I know I can't do that with Tango. I'm beginning to think that my best way of progressing in Tango here in NI is to find a dance partner, take private lessons and travel to Dublin regularly. I should start looking.

[Feelingpink]

After what I think are months of not dancing, I took my first tango lesson last night. Yum. A tango connection should be made a rite of passage - something that everyone needs to learn to be considered an adult ... sure we'd all be so much happier in the world.

I went with Clive & met DJ & CeeCee, so it was delightful to have friendly faces there and Clive's introductions to others. It was also thanks to his great directions (cream pub, go down the left-hand side, near the mini-cab office etc etc) as well as having run into Kate Hargreaves by complete coincidence earlier in the evening, who had mentioned that the venue was called The Dome, that I found it with no problems at all.

The lesson was all about technique and very like a vertical pilates lesson (but more fun, because there is actually a point to it, rather than "just" being something that is good for you). We did some walking and turning and leading and following, feeling where your partner's weight is. What I did find very odd and somehow very intimate was allowing the guy to lead with just your hand on his chest. The actual action wasn't weird, but leaving it there for such a long time with a complete stranger was. But when the lovely teacher came over to get the guy to lead with his chest more, it completely transformed the guy I was dancing with - an absolute wow - so strong and manly. Yum again.

I'm definitely there next week, but also need to find a class that teaches actual steps as well (Mr Long is going to help me here). When dancing with DJ, it helped hugely having a vague recollection of a hero, from Kate & Will's Jango classes as well as ochos (& before DavidB chimes in, there is no need for Will/hero jokes).

Watching a number of couples after the class, it was definitely a case of "I'll have what they're having". I want to be able to 'do' this tango thing (even if it is going to take a lifetime).

[Lynn]

After what I think are months of not dancing, I took my first tango lesson last night. Yum. A tango connection should be made a rite of passage - something that everyone needs to learn to be considered an adult ... sure we'd all be so much happier in the world. Its so good to read about someone else 'discovering' tango!

...an absolute wow - so strong and manly. Yum again.Maybe that's part of the appeal - men do seem to be 'strong' in Tango -not by sheer force but in their 'intention'. Hmmm, yum too!


When dancing with DJ, it helped hugely having a vague recollection of a hero, from Kate & Will's Jango classes as well as ochos (& before DavidB chimes in, there is no need for Will/hero jokes).Just a little point - its 'giro' (pronounced hiro) as in 'turn'. Sorry to spoil any anticipated hero jokes.


Watching a number of couples after the class, it was definitely a case of "I'll have what they're having". I want to be able to 'do' this tango thing (even if it is going to take a lifetime). :yeah: And it probably will. But a lifetime of learning tango doesn't seem any great hardship to me.

[Feelingpink]

...

Just a little point - its 'giro' (pronounced hiro) as in 'turn'. Sorry to spoil any anticipated hero jokes.

Thank you x :hug:

[Rhythm King]

*Hijack the Tango thread for a change mode*


Of course in Germany, giros are doner kebabs :whistle:

Ah, the sweet taste of revenge, seasoned of course with chili sauce and lemon salad dressing. Mwahahaha!

R-K :wink:

[Lynn]

*Hijack the Tango thread for a change mode*
Hijack the tango thread? :really: Its supposed to be the other way round!

Actually this must be one of the most focused and least hijacked threads on the forum. (Can we keep it that way, pretty please?:flower: )

[Lory]

Its so good to read about someone else 'discovering' tango!
Maybe that's part of the appeal - men do seem to be 'strong' in Tango -not by sheer force but in their 'intention'. Hmmm, yum too!


I know what you mean... for some reason, the men seem more manly in Tango, they have a kind of dominant presence about them,:devil: :drool: which in turn makes me feel very feminine :innocent:

Maybe it's the serious passionate look on their faces (called concentration :whistle: ) or their stance, with the proud chest, or the power they have to move you, with just their body movements, whilst maintaining a softness in their hands and not manhandling you?

[Feelingpink]

Hijack the tango thread? :really: Its supposed to be the other way round!

Actually this must be one of the most focused and least hijacked threads on the forum. (Can we keep it that way, pretty please?:flower: )He's bored & he's downstairs (sigh).

Do you have a London tango trip planned Lynn?

[Rhythm King]

Yes but now you know how the rest of us feel :na:

R-K :flower:

[timbp]

Hijack the tango thread? :really: Its supposed to be the other way round!

Actually this must be one of the most focused and least hijacked threads on the forum. (Can we keep it that way, pretty please?:flower: )
I agree. This is the main reason I keep reading and posting. Other threads might have useful information after page 5, but I just assume its boring chit-chat (I realise it may be interesting to you, but I live in the antipodes where questions of who did what at which London venue are irrelevant [hang on, isn't this a Scotland forum?]). this post may be the most off-topic post on the thread (I certainly hope so. I love having a thread appear on the new posts page when I know it's going to have useful information.)

Tim

[Lynn]

I know what you mean... for some reason, the men seem more manly in Tango, they have a kind of dominant presence about them,:devil: :drool: which in turn makes me feel very feminine :innocent:

Maybe it's the serious passionate look on their faces (called concentration :whistle: ) or their stance, with the proud chest, or the power they have to move you, with just their body movements, whilst maintaining a softness in their hands and not manhandling you?You've summed it up perfectly! :worthy: I think its also because I'm not the 'helpless female' type in real life that I like the contrast of tango, I just want to melt into the embrace and let them take charge. I also love that I can have some time to play too though!

[Lory]

Last week, during our Tango lesson, I learnt more about 'leg flicking embellishments', what to do and more importantly, WHEN!

The two we concentrated on were, a backward kick, which is done at the point of transition from a backward ocho, to forward ocho and a 'flick across' which is done at the point where a forward ochos is suddenly changed to a backwards one.

Now the main problem is, knowing when this is going to happen :confused: as the window of opportunity is a nano second and if done late, looks and feels dreadful.:sick:

Our teacher reassured me that it took her at least 9months of missing them and getting very frustrated until it became instinctive. ;) I've learn that i'm very impatient :blush:

When you watch the experienced ladies, they seem to have all the time in the world.:worthy:

I think it's one of those things, where you need to just go for it and be prepared to **** up, otherwise we'll never get it :rolleyes:

The important tips she gave were, always keeps your thighs and knees tightly pressed together, start with you feet closed, flick, then get them back together as soon as possible, hopefully it will be so seamless, that the lead wont even notice that you've done it :na:

Kev was very patient and tried numerous times but I only got it about 1 in every ten goes :sad: and that's even when I knew it was coming..

[philsmove]

Now the main problem is, knowing when this is going to happen :confused: as the window of opportunity is a nano second and if done late, looks and feels dreadful.:sick:

..

I ‘m Guessing here but I think its like any move

After a while you realise you are being set up for a particular move before your partner actually leads it

Or a least you know there is a limit to what he/you can do next

A recent description of tango was a dance by one person with four legs

In one of my classes, Leaders are taught to put small pauses to allow the lady to put in a “decoration “

A gancho is defiantly lead and if correctly lead the follower has no option but to kick

Hope this makes sense - it is impossible to put into words how “the connection” works its one those things that just happens

And when it does…hmmmmmm……………………….

[Lynn]

Hope this makes sense - it is impossible to put into words how “the connection” works its one those things that just happens

And when it does…hmmmmmm……………………….:yeah:

[Lory]

A gancho is defiantly lead and if correctly lead the follower has no option but to kick


Unless the follower is defiant! :whistle: :wink:

[Feelingpink]

Unless the follower is defiant! :whistle: :wink:Oh, I don't know ... I can imagine a defiant follower kicking ... it just depends where :devil:

[Lory]

Oh, I don't know ... I can imagine a defiant follower kicking ... it just depends where :devil:
:yeah: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[philsmove]

Oh, I don't know ... I can imagine a defiant follower kicking ... it just depends where :devil:

Lets just say there is one lady who I do not ask to dance:eek:

[JonD]

I've missed this thread! I've been rushing about for the past week and had no opportunity to share our adventures and pontificate about AT. My life has been the poorer for it. It's so good to read all your comments and be reminded that there is a sane "AT" world out there to counter the distractions of work, relationships, gas bills and other secondary considerations.


the window of opportunity is a nano second and if done late, looks and feels dreadful.
The timing is incredibly difficult. Giving the correct lead at that precise moment in that precise position is crucial or it feels like you are shoving the follower around. I'm better with ganchos (ensuring that the kick isn't going to end in the wrong place - painful experience) than with boleos. I find those almost impossible to lead.

I went to Berkhamstead on Sunday night as I was visiting a friend in the area. Mark played a fab set in the "blues room" with loads of Tango: he played the track Julie and I used for that demonstration. I kept asking ladies if they danced Tango and nobody did. Don't get me wrong, there were some fabulous dancers there but I wanted to dance AT to this fab music rather than bending MJ to fit (which I didn't do very well at all - poor Rachel danced beautifully and suffered my eccentricities with a smile as did some other lovely dancers whose names I don't know). If I want to use AT shapes I use an AT lead rather than an MJ or Jango lead and it just doesn't work unless the follower knows the language you're talking. It was really frustrating! I'll have to get to a Monday Lush and develop my "hybrid" skills.


Lets just say there is one lady who I do not ask to dance
I expect prior warning when I come up to Bristol!

[Rachel]

Oh my God - was that you???? So sorry, I didn't click you were JonD. I should have known... That was an amazing dance (hang on, am I actually the Rachel your'e referring to here, or am I being presumptious?). I was telling Marc all about it. Thank you!

So sorry for not being able to tango (yet!!!) Lory, where were you?

Rachel x

[JonD]

Oh my God - was that you????
I'm afraid so! And it was definitely you - we sat on the same table at Rock Bottoms in Torquay a couple of years ago and you're far too lovely to forget.

I seem to remember that I was muttering and generally behaving in a very strange way. My apologies - I've normally got slightly better social skills and I like to think that I normally dance a bit better than that as well. Our dance was a real pleasure and you were superb at covering those bits where my lead vanished into a confusion between MJ and AT. I'll try to do better at Southport - or at "Big Bang" if you're going!

[Rachel]

I'm afraid so! And it was definitely you - we sat on the same table at Rock Bottoms in Torquay a couple of years ago and you're far too lovely to forget.

I seem to remember that I was muttering and generally behaving in a very strange way. My apologies - I've normally got slightly better social skills and I like to think that I normally dance a bit better than that as well. Our dance was a real pleasure and you were superb at covering those bits where my lead vanished into a confusion between MJ and AT. I'll try to do better at Southport - or at "Big Bang" if you're going!You were perfect. And I don't remember the muttering or any particularly strange behaviour!! I'm kicking myself for not realising who you were - I did remember your face, but didn't click you were JonD.

Yes - Southport and Big Bang - we'll be at both. Look forward to seeing you there!
R.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Feelingpink
I took my first tango lesson last night. Yum.
Congratulations, welcome to our journey.

You were spoilt on your first lesson, at least we actually had partners last night. At my first ever Tango class, same venue, same teacher, we walked forwards, backwards and sideways on our own, for the entire lesson.

Love your rite of passage idea but Tango is a funny thing. We all know it exists but some of us simply don’t get it until Tango chooses us.


Originally posted by Feelingpink
But when the lovely teacher came over to get the guy to lead with his chest more, it completely transformed the guy I was dancing with - an absolute wow - so strong and manly. Yum again.
yep, great isn’t it?


Originally posted by Feelingpink
it was definitely a case of "I'll have what they're having". I want to be able to 'do' this tango thing (even if it is going to take a lifetime).
Is if an option?

Anyway, sounds like you’re hooked too. You’ve been chosen.


Originally posted by Lory
I know what you mean... for some reason, the men seem more manly in Tango, they have a kind of dominant presence about them, which in turn makes me feel very feminine
Nicely put! I dream that we are damsels (thankfully not in distress) and they are our knights, (shining armour to be supplied).


Originally posted by Lynn
I think its also because I'm not the 'helpless female' type in real life that I like the contrast of tango,
Hey Lynn, I was thinking the same thing yesterday. We can be our own characters telling any story, like living a fairy tale.


Originally posted by Philsmove
A recent description of tango was a dance by one person with four legs
This is precisely what the dancers demonstrated at Corrientes on Saturday night, they seemed fixed from the hip upwards. How do they do that?
(by the way are the frogs in your avatar doing the Tango?)


Originally posted by timbp
I agree. This is the main reason I keep reading and posting.
I love reading your posts about Peter and Clare, they sound like great teachers.
One of the beauties of the Forum Tim, we are lucky enough to share experiences with you from the other side of the world on this fabulous, supportive, inspirational, caring, sharing, pontificating (thanks JonD) thread.


Originally posted by JonD
I've missed this thread!
Ha ha, part of the Tango addiction.
Love the new avatar by the way, what does it say underneath, Dance of the Lunatics?
Originally posted by Rachel
So sorry for not being able to tango (yet!!!)
Simply a matter or time…

Originally posted by DavidY on the Tango Music thread
It took me a while to work out that "Gotan" is an anagram of "Tango".
Did anyone else realise this? I totally missed it, not sure how cos now it seems so obvious, well done David.









Sueño el tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…
One body four legs

[JonD]

Welcome to the journey Feelingpink! It is a fabulous journey with moments of pure delight and moments of pure frustration. I've just got back from a class that was full of the former - wonderful. Ruth is turning into an inspired teacher; her teaching is much more structured than it was four years ago so it's like I'm sharing her journey as well.

I managed to get there for the last hour of the absolute beginner class and had the pleasure of dancing with some ladies in that class. It's wonderful to feel them start to relax, trust their instinct and wait for the lead rather than rushing into a step because they aren't sure of what to do. If I were to give any advice it would be to "close your eyes, try to relax, trust what you feel and don't be in a hurry". I know that is incredibly difficult with a leader who is also just starting the journey but it makes a huge difference and is a lot easier for the leader than trying to stop a follower who is always moving. Oh, and practice your balance! (Stand on one leg when you are waiting at the supermarket checkout - slowly come up onto the ball of your foot, hold it then relax back down to the floor. That's what I do).

The Level 2 class built on the pivots we were doing last week, but this week we were doing beautiful slow, small movements. It was fascinating and challenging and great fun. We worked in both open and close embrace and had the time to really get it right. I was taking my followers off their axis as I stepped round them so that they ended up leaning on me slightly. I eventually worked out that I was being inaccurate with my first step. I love learning like that: Jackie laughing with me as I puzzled through what was going wrong and then the delight when it started to work.


they are our knights, (shining armour to be supplied)
You've seen my walk then! Sometimes it's just like I'm wearing a particularly rusty and constricting suit of armour.


Love the new avatar by the way, what does it say underneath, Dance of the Lunatics?
Yes, that's it - highly appropriate. It's a sheet music cover I think but I can't make out all the details even on the large version. I found it here: Vintage Dance Images (http://www.havetodance.com/vintagedanceimages/)

[Feelingpink]

Welcome to the journey Feelingpink! It is a fabulous journey with moments of pure delight and moments of pure frustration. ...
It's wonderful to feel them (ladies) start to relax, trust their instinct and wait for the lead rather than rushing into a step because they aren't sure of what to do. If I were to give any advice it would be to "close your eyes, try to relax, trust what you feel and don't be in a hurry". I know that is incredibly difficult with a leader who is also just starting the journey but it makes a huge difference and is a lot easier for the leader than trying to stop a follower who is always moving. ...Thanks for the encouragement. I'm quite happy stopping whenever the lead stops, thanks in part to ChrisA's anti-anticipatory leading in the past! :hug: And when I danced with Clive and DJ on Monday night, the stopping felt like a lovely part of things. I even managed to go off into Dreamstate for a few seconds (although I'm sure that meant I lost my 'tree' centre and everything else that goes with it). :blush:

[timbp]

Lesson 7

For the past few weeks I've had too much work to do, and done too much dancing (yes there is such a thing). I've been tired and stressed and grumpy and had sore feet. I've gone along to my tango classes feeling rotten, and come home relaxed, happy, problems forgotten for a while.

Today I got my work out of the way -- not quite finished, but at a stage where the stress is off. Last night I actually had a night at home alone doing nothing. And today I went off to tango feeling great, looking forward to a wonderful night.

So of course I came home disappointed and frustrated.

With Peter in Buenos Aires, the class was run by Clare, with assistance from another guy who I think is one of their advanced students. I'm sure he's a great dancer, but he's not a teacher.

We started as always with walking up the room, then backwards the other way. At one point, while walking backwards, I suddenly felt my shoulders grabbed strongly, and the guy said "stop rolling your shoulders". This was quite a shock -- I didn't know I was rolling my shoulders. I didn't know I could roll my shoulders. Certainly, when I was learning salsa my teacher gave me the impression that I wasn't doing it. Maybe I did pick up somehting in those salsa classes.

We've never been told anything about how we should put the foot down walking forward -- heel first, ball first, both together. I've not really noticed how Peter does it, but I think he's ball first, or possibly heel and ball together. This guy tonight was clearly heel first, and it looked odd to me. He and Clare both said it's a matter of personal preference. So I'll spend some time trying them all to see what I prefer.

We then found partners, and walked around the line of dance connected by woman's hands on man's centre, to practise both leading from the centre and listening to and moving to the music. Halfway through the song Clare stopped
the music and we got a talk about etiquette and floorcraft.

Points made were:

Move in the line of dance
Keep to the perimeter: never move through the middle of the floor
Don't overtake people: if the couple ahead of you are moving more slowly or paused, then slow yourself or pause and wait for them to move on. Only overtake if they are stopped for an excessive time.
Never stop in place long enough for anyone to think about overtaking you.


Clare also tried to get the women to rotate partners, telling us we'd been dancing long enough now to risk dancing with people we don't know, and that we'll progress faster dancing with different people. Two girls who came alone rotated, and one couple. the other couples refused to rotate. But at least I got to dance with 3 different people in the night.

We the started what they called the "left wheel" -- giro in the opposite direction. The teachers demonstrated it a few times, then we separated to learn our parts separately.

This is where I really missed Peter. In explaining the moves, he's always described what we want the lady to do, what we do with our upper body to get the lady to do it, and what we do with our lower body to follow or get out of the way of our partner. This guy just got us stepping through the pattern -- no mention of what the upper body is doing, what or how we should be leading. Nevertheless, when I got a chance to practise it with Clare, she seemed happy enough with what I was doing.

Next week is the last one for the beginners' course. At the end of the next class, we will each be given 2 tickets to the friday night milonga. I don't think I'm ready to risk dancing at the milonga, but it will be good to go along and feel the atmosphere and see some real dancing.

[philsmove]

Lesson 7

.


So of course I came home disappointed and frustrated.

:hug: :hug: :hug:



We've never been told anything about how we should put the foot down walking forward
the best instruction I received on walking came from Leroy

I think he teachers in London and it’s well worth seeking him out

His advice - the walk should as natural as possible, smooth and with purpose, you should “caress” the floor, this means your feet stay very close to the floor (glad I don’t have to try in high heeds)


I don't think I'm ready to risk dancing at the Milonga, but it will be good to go along and feel the atmosphere and see some real dancing.

:yeah:
Hint

Being a beginner is NOT a reason for refusing a dance. ask the leader to simply walk you round the floor

No need for anything fancy just soak up the atmosphere

GO FOR IT

[JonD]

So of course I came home disappointed and frustrated.
One of those classes - my sympathy. I seem to get them every now and then for no particular reason. Someone pointing out something that hasn't been mentioned before can be a little disturbing - Ruth told me that she wanted me to be "more in my coccyx" a couple of weeks ago which was a touch worrying. Evidently I have a habit of bending forward from the waist in close embrace but that thinking of putting more weight into my tail bone will correct the fault!

It sounds like a good class though, despite the fact that the giro wasn't broken down enough. All the points about etiquette and floor discipline seem valid to me.

Dancing at a milonga for the first time is horrible but you've just got to take a deep breath and dive in. I think it's worse if you are a competent dancer in a different style as you are used to being able to just walk out onto the floor and give almost any parnter a decent dance. Going out there knowing that you're going to stumble about is no fun at all. However, it isn't as bad as you think and you'll look a lot better than you realise - honestly! I was videoed dancing with a teacher a few months ago; I came off the floor convinced that I'd made a complete fool of myself but it actually looked OK. Try to remember that dancers are not, generally, a judgemental lot and that the watchers eye is drawn to the good dancer not the beginner. Having said all that, I can still remember shuddering at my first efforts and the pure terror of my first tanda at a milonga in Buenos Aires! (And I'll be as nervous as hell at the Dome on 5th April). Take your time, keep it simple, dance lots of pauses and you may even enjoy it.

[Lynn]

timbp :hug: Sometimes Tango seems to be the most wonderful and frustrating dance at the same time!

Dancing at a milonga for the first time is horrible but you've just got to take a deep breath and dive in. I'm going to be so nervous when I go to my first milonga! Not ready for it yet and when I do go I'm going to make sure I go with friends.
I think it's worse if you are a competent dancer in a different style as you are used to being able to just walk out onto the floor and give almost any partner a decent dance. I got the Tango teacher up for a dance in the blues room at Scarborough. So it was the other way round, when dancing tango I had been the beginner, now he was. He gave it go though! :respect:

[philsmove]

...I think it's worse if you are a competent dancer in a different style as you are used to being able to just walk out onto the floor and give almost any parnter a decent dance..

:yeah:


Especially for leaders

Followers can just close their eyes

And remember most people will be dancing - rather than watching you

I know someone you will frown but do think a SMALL glass of chardonnay (http://www.majestic.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=272&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=14991)

Will help first night nerves:cheers:

[JonD]

I know someone you will frown but do think a SMALL glass of chardonnay will help first night nerves
No frowns from me!

[philsmove]

There is now quite a large group of LeRocers learning Tango in Bristol

We had been told to practice ochos, holding on to edge of the kitchen worktop

At the pub after tonight’s lesson, someone confessed to practicing giros round the end of her bedpost

Is this Pole dancing? :whistle:

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by JonD
Oh, and practice your balance! (Stand on one leg when you are waiting at the supermarket checkout - slowly come up onto the ball of your foot, hold it then relax back down to the floor. That's what I do).
This is great advice because balance is such an issue. As tangueros it’s normal to look for opportunities to stand on one leg right? Recently washing up, cooking, sweeping and ironing to music have taken on a novelty value and are much more fun.

Thanks Jon for The Vintage Dance Images, they're fun,

Originally posted by JonD
I can still remember shuddering at my first efforts and the pure terror of my first tanda at a milonga in Buenos Aires!
Tanda?

Originally posted by timbp
And today I went off to tango feeling great, looking forward to a wonderful night.

So of course I came home disappointed and frustrated.
Sympathy to you. Chin up, the journey continues…

Originally posted by timbp
We've never been told anything about how we should put the foot down walking forward -- heel first, ball first, both together. I've not really noticed how Peter does it, but I think he's ball first, or possibly heel and ball together. This guy tonight was clearly heel first, and it looked odd to me. He and Clare both said it's a matter of personal preference.
This contradicts everything I’ve been told by the several teachers I’ve been to so far. Yes, what you do is personal preference but not how you do it.

The one thing they agree on is definitely not leading with the heel and there’s certainly no option of personal preference. At the practica on Monday before we began walking, I was amazed as the teacher gave us clear, detailed, specific instructions about the position of the head, chin, neck, shoulders, arms, back, abdomen, hips, thighs, knees, calves, ankles, heels and toes, all this before we took our first step!

Originally posted by philsmove
We had been told to practice ochos, holding on to edge of the kitchen worktop
This reminds me of a woman I saw on TV practising her ochos, ganchos and barridas in a supermarket while pushing her shopping trolley, pointing out the advantages of space and the surface of the floor, then extolling the virtues of the connection with her partner (the trolley), the ideal temperament of her partner (the trolley) and the patience of her partner (the trolley).

Don’t about you guys in other parts of the globe but I’m a Londoner and I’m not quite ready to provide free entertainment for shoppers by following her example I’m afraid.







Sueño el tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…
One body four legs

[Lynn]

This is great advice because balance is such an issue. As tangueros it’s normal to look for opportunities to stand on one leg right? Recently washing up, cooking, sweeping and ironing to music have taken on a novelty value and are much more fun. I had already been doing this to improve my balance for spinning. Its the standing on one leg with the spare leg in close that is harder, I was always fine if my spare leg was raised as that provided the balance (eg to open a door handle or gate with my foot if my hands were full, not very dignified, I would only do it if no-one was around!) I don't know if its the standing on one foot exercises or dancing (well trying to) tango but my standing on one leg and spinning have both improved recently.:D

This reminds me of a woman I saw on TV practising her ochos, ganchos and barridas in a supermarket while pushing her shopping trolley, pointing out the advantages of space and the surface of the floor, then extolling the virtues of the connection with her partner (the trolley), the ideal temperament of her partner (the trolley) and the patience of her partner (the trolley).

Don’t about you guys in other parts of the globe but I’m a Londoner and I’m not quite ready to provide free entertainment for shoppers by following her example I’m afraid.I have occasionally danced with a trolley in a completely empty aisle in a supermarket if there is a really good track playing...and I can see a trolley being very patient - not sure about the connection though - I would prefer the connection of a real man.

[JonD]

Tanda?
'Tanda — A set of dance music, usually three to five songs, of the same dance in similar style, if not by the same orchestra. The tandas are separated by a brief interlude of non-tango music called a "cortina" (or curtain) during which couples select each other. It is customary to dance the entire tanda with the same partner unless the man is rude or very disappointing as a dance partner, in which case the lady may say gracias or "thank you" and leave' (from Tango Terminology (http://www.tejastango.com/terminology.html). Oh, and it's not unknown for leaders to terminate a dance mid-Tanda as well.)

The one thing they agree on is definitely not leading with the heel ...
I've had similar advice to that given to Tim and also been told the same as CeeCee. Having seen some really good dancers stepping onto their heel and others onto their toe and still others onto the whole foot I've sort of decided it is personal preference - although I suspect that Carlos Gavito would have skinned me if I'd stepped onto my heel! I try to step onto my toe but more frequently use the whole foot. I guess you can vary it to suit the style of the music but I think the toe thing is more elegant.

Its the standing on one leg with the spare leg in close that is harder ...
Isn't it just?! If I'm standing around I'll often do little foot decorations - stand on one leg and bring the other one into a cross or make a small circle with the toe. It helps me know where my feet are (sounds silly but I think you know what I mean) and be accurate about placing my feet alongside each other. I know if looks strange because my staff occasionally look aghast at me when I'm standing by the photocopier. I've never done the supermarket trolley thing though - although it would be a real help with my backward ochos. But I ask myself if Sainsbury's in Exeter ready for that! I mentioned some exercises (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=163596&postcount=28) a while back which are quite good for your "moving balance".

I've just got back from Jive and had some fab dances. Julie and I did the last 6 tracks together and danced a mix of MJ and AT to "Straight to Number 1" (is that the name - "Touch and Go"?) which was the last track. It was great - really worked well and felt sublime.

[CeeCee]

The Magic continues…

Today I heard some news which made me happy. The musical world that GoTan Project (http://www.seetickets.com/see/event.asp?e%7Cartist=GOTAN+PROJECT&resultsperpage=20&filler1=see) inhabits is coming to town.

OH BOY! Now I’m really excited, should be great.
Couldn't wait I've booked my ticket, anyone care to join?

Okay Carole, keep calm, Ohm, deep breath, Ohm.

As if that isn't enough for one day, I made a discovery along my journey today too. It was like popping into one of those cute little village gift shops but the gifts were old Tango threads, which I didn’t know about because they were before I discovered the Forum, before Tango discovered me.


Originally posted by JonD
I mentioned some exercises a while back which are quite good for your "moving balance".

Your exercise link led me to this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4967) ancient Tango thread where I had the pleasure of reading your amazingly emotional, passionate, sensitive, expressive and descriptive post (#10). It was a joy to read and made my day. Thank you Jon.







Sueño el tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…
One body four legs
Feel the music, dance the feeling

[philsmove]

Couldn't wait I've booked my ticket, anyone care to join?

Sueño el tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…
One body four legs
Feel the music, dance the feeling

I can resist anything but temptation

[Clive Long]

The Magic continues…

Today I heard some news which made me happy. The musical world that GoTan Project (http://www.seetickets.com/see/event.asp?e%7Cartist=GOTAN+PROJECT&resultsperpage=20&filler1=see) inhabits is coming to town.

Web site says standing room only. Is that the way things are at Shepherds Bush Empire? (I'm not trendy OK? I don't know these things).

Clive

[Tiggerbabe]

standing room only.
Because you can't dance sitting down (well David B can, but that's another story :whistle: )
Enjoy!

[Clive Long]

Because you can't dance sitting down (well David B can, but that's another story :whistle: )
Enjoy!
Duhhh !!!

CRL

[Feelingpink]

The Magic continues…

Today I heard some news which made me happy. The musical world that GoTan Project (http://www.seetickets.com/see/event.asp?e%7Cartist=GOTAN+PROJECT&resultsperpage=20&filler1=see) inhabits is coming to town.






Sueño el tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…
One body four legs
Feel the music, dance the feelingI was excited ... until I realised that Gotan Project is here on a Saturday in July, so the chances are that I'll be working. :tears:

[Lynn]

Tango tonight was good. :D

There were extra men this week! So no waiting out.

I kept getting some of the same partners (people change their order in the circle as they practice, then we just rotate on one). One partner especially I found extremely helpful - a clear lead, patience as we worked through why things were happening a certain way, trying variations in lead and follow to see what worked. This is what I want and need. (I think he comes to class with a partner and I don't know him very well, otherwise would ask to spend time practicing with him outside of class. I could learn a lot from dancing with him. And he leads the cross.) For the first time I felt like I was actually dancing tango.

Another partner who I used to dance MJ with every week when we had classes a couple of years ago said he thought I had found my dance in tango, much more so than ceroc.

The teacher came round and corrected my footwork, I was forgetting to bring my ankles together enough - useful feedback and she said otherwise my feet were good.:nice:

And we learnt ganchos, which I liked. I loved the quick flick of the gancho followed by a few slower ochos. Mmmm. (I did have a gancho related question that I planned to ask on here but it has completely gone from my head.)

Only 2 more weeks, then the classes end. Just as I feel I am making progress. But I think there will be regular milongas starting in Newry (about 45mins drive from me). I don't want my tango journey to stop.

[Lynn]

Do you have a London tango trip planned Lynn?Missed this post, I was sort of skimming over the (thankfully brief) thread derailment.

I would love to take some time and do a tour of London venues, I'm sure between them CeeCee and Clive will have a list of all the best places to visit by the time I come over. Not sure when though... and of course I will also want to do some MJ and shoe shopping...

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lynn
I would love to take some time and do a tour of London venues, I'm sure between them CeeCee and Clive will have a list of all the best places to visit by the time I come over.
Funny you should mention it Lynn because with the usual plethora of venues, I’m fretting over where to devote my attentions this evening.

I’ve narrowed it down to Corrientes, Jacksons Lane, The Crypt or Hammersmith. Tango has its obvious attractions but the lure of the new Blues Room at Hammersmith is tempting, so do I want:-


Tango / Jive
Milonga / Freestyle
long drive / short drive
new venue / familiar venue
new faces / familiar faces
concentration / relaxation
composure / energy
hard music / easy music
seriousness / laughter
serene / lively
complexity / simplicity

To add to the dilemma, believe it or not, I’m having a bad hair day

HELP!









Sueño el tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…
One body four legs
Feel the music, dance the feeling

[philsmove]

To add to the dilemma, believe it or not, I’m having a bad hair day

HELP!


I think You need an 8 ball (http://www.indra.com/8ball/front.html) :hug:

Nothing in Bristol to night:sad: ; so its travel or an evening by the fire and at the moment the fire is winning:wink:

[Lynn]

Tango has its obvious attractions but the lure of the new Blues Room at Hammersmith is tempting,I think its a one off - the blues room, so if you have other tango options in the week, then a nice relaxing MJ evening with good friends could be appealing.

Wish I had a choice. *sigh*

I know, I know, move to London...

[Feelingpink]

I think You need an 8 ball (http://www.indra.com/8ball/front.html) :hug:

Nothing in Bristol to night:sad: ; so its travel or an evening by the fire and at the moment the fire is winning:wink:Wow! A fire sounds wonderful, having just been working/walking on Hampstead Heath in the cold wind. But on way to Teddington for non-dance evening.

[philsmove]

just came across this site (http://www.tangoafficionado.com/dance.htm)
it's OK Lynn your credit card is relatively safe - they don’t appear to do shoes

[JonD]

To add to the dilemma, believe it or not, I’m having a bad hair day
Well I've had a lovely day even if it wasn't the one I expected. Roger Chin's MJ workshops here in Exeter were cancelled at the last minute because he's unwell (get well soon Roger) so I had a lie-in. It turned into a serious lie-in as I didn't get out of bed until mid-day. Wonderful.

Julie and I spent a couple of hours practicing AT. The first hour we were just doing those walking exercises and commenting on each other's posture and technique. The second hour we worked on a single figure and managed to identify and partially correct the things that were going wrong. It's such a delight to do that. I think you need practice time with AT - classes just give you more and more and more things to think about but you never seem to consolidate the lessons and freestyle doesn't give you the opportunity to break things down.

This evening we had the first ever milonga in Exeter. It was a fabulous success - I guess there were 50 people there for the "Rough Guide to Tango" and about half of them were complete beginners - a lot of them were from the local Salsa scene. I had some brilliant dances tonight. It was really working well and just so much fun. The atmosphere was great, people had brought food and drink and the music was good. Even the floor discipline was OK (amazing considering the number of complete beginners who were stumbling around with grins on their faces).

I do love a "Tango high"!

[Lynn]

Julie and I spent a couple of hours practicing AT. The first hour we were just doing those walking exercises and commenting on each other's posture and technique. The second hour we worked on a single figure and managed to identify and partially correct the things that were going wrong. It's such a delight to do that. I think you need practice time with AT - classes just give you more and more and more things to think about but you never seem to consolidate the lessons and freestyle doesn't give you the opportunity to break things down. This is what I am really feeling the need for at the moment. The teacher does allow us a lot of time to practice in our class - in 2 hours she usually only covers about one new thing (this week - gancho), revises some things previously taught (this week - 16 basic :rolleyes: and barrida) and gives us some technique tips (this week - 'listen to the music' and for women to take their time over decorations). She then goes round the room as we practice, offering individual feedback. I would love more practice time. And even with some people dropping out there are still over 20 in the class, I would love to attend a smaller class or have a private or semi-private lesson.

Even more frustrating as I felt I learnt a lot with one of the guys in the rotation and would like some practice time with him but as far as I can tell he already has a partner. I'm going to keep looking though. Its not easy looking for a practice partner. It not only has to be someone you get on with who is willing to put in the time, effort and some expense (private lesson, booking a practice venue), but someone you can work with. I have friends in the class but I'm not sure we could work as well together.

[Clive Long]

Today I heard some news which made me happy. The musical world that GoTan Project (http://www.seetickets.com/see/event.asp?e%7Cartist=GOTAN+PROJECT&resultsperpage=20&filler1=see) inhabits is coming to town.

OH BOY! Now I’m really excited, should be great.
Couldn't wait I've booked my ticket, anyone care to join?

I realised I was being a real cheap-skate.

It wasn't the £20 for the ticket - that seems to me good value for a London event. It was the additional £8 for the "booking fee" and postage that irked.I guess those are costs beyond the control of the agency. Anyway, should be interesting to see how much "spontaneous dancing" there will be at the gig (why do I feel awkward using that word?). I wanted to go so, I have paid what they asked - it will be great.

Thanks for posting CeeCee.

Clive

[Aleks]

Went to first AT class last night and loved it! Can't wait for next week.

[philsmove]

Went to first AT class last night and loved it! Can't wait for next week.


Welcome to our little corner of the forum

And the seductive world of Tango :hug:

[JonD]

Went to first AT class last night and loved it! Can't wait for next week.Excellent Aleks! If you're going to Jenny & Ricardo's classes can you post your impressions? Julie and I had a private lesson with them at Camber in 2004 and were most impressed - they seem lovely people as well.

I'm all excited: I've just been planning my holiday for October and it looks like Julie and I will be flying to Buenos Aires on the 4th, arriving at 5.50am on the 5th. We're going to stay at the Mansion Dandi Royal again for 18 nights and fly back on the evening of the 23rd. It's going to be so good! If anyone else is considering going out there then PM me and we'll compare notes.

Total cost including flights (Bristol-Madrid-BsAs and back), 18 nights B&B at the Dandi (4* standard), taxi to/from airport, a day on an Estancia, 2 x Tango shows with dinner, entry and taxi transfers to/from a milonga every night, plus group AT classes every night is £1,230 each. I reckon I'll spend about another £300 so it works out at around £510 per week all in for some serious AT immersion - and I should get some more dance shoes out of that budget.

Erm, I can't make the Gotan concert because, erm, I'll be on holiday at Tango Valley. Sorry.

[philsmove]

.....I will be flying to Buenos Aires .....stay at the Mansion Dandi Royal .....I'll be on holiday at Tango Valley.

And are we jealous

Nah
:whistle:

[Lynn]

I'm all excited: I've just been planning my holiday for October and it looks like Julie and I will be flying to Buenos Aires on the 4th, arriving at 5.50am on the 5th. We're going to stay at the Mansion Dandi Royal again for 18 nights and fly back on the evening of the 23rd. It's going to be so good! BsAs is definitely on my long term 'plan to go' list of destinations. Not yet though!

Erm, I can't make the Gotan concert because, erm, I'll be on holiday at Tango Valley. I was looking at the Tango Valley website last night. I don't think its an option for this year as the beginner week is May and I'm going on a Jive Addiction holiday in Spain in May :waycool: , but I might plan for it for next year - if anyone else is going that I know. (Forum tango holiday anyone?)

[philsmove]

. (Forum tango holiday anyone?)

I defiantly think we should have a LTFG

Little Tango Forum Gathering

[Aleks]

Excellent Aleks! If you're going to Jenny & Ricardo's classes can you post your impressions?

It was a free class organised by the Edinburgh Tango Society. Was so nervous can't even remember the teacher's name. Tattie, Doune and Azande were also there and CJ has been before too.

My impression was 'wow, I wanna be able to do THAT', but I guess it will take a lot of classes, patience and practice.

[Lynn]

My impression was 'wow, I wanna be able to do THAT', but I guess it will take a lot of classes, patience and practice.Apparently it takes 10 years to learn how to 'walk' properly...

But don't let that put you off, think of it as the start of a long, rewarding, exciting, inspiring journey.

It would be lovely to hear about your classes and your journey on this thread. And we all ask each other questions too. (OK, JonD usually answers them! :worthy: :flower: :hug: For inspiration and illumination check out some of his posts! :respect: )

[Feelingpink]

I defiantly think we should have a LTFG

Little Tango Forum GatheringOoh, yes, let's (says she, with one tango lesson under her belt) :blush:

[Lynn]

I defiantly think we should have a LTFG

Little Tango Forum GatheringSouthport... and hopefully that will set a pattern so that at future weekenders us forumite tangueros and tangueras can find each other for some dances. (Eg if there is going to be 'Sack the DJ' type slot at a Ceroc weekender we could bring tango music...)

[Lynn]

Ooh, yes, let's (says she, with one tango lesson under her belt) :blush:As we are discovering, its possible that only one lesson, one great tango experience, can be enough to light the fire of tango passion.

[CeeCee]

Ooops, sorry guys this is a long one…



Happiness is…
Just enjoying the journey
Thought of the Weekend
Friday night warmed up with a night of jive at my usual venue. I love it there. Dancing with beginners, seeing them in a brand new light, feeling excited for them as they begin their dancing journey. I used to think of each newbie as a potential jive champion but now each one is a potential tanguero.

Omission of the Weekend

Originally posted by Me
Funny you should mention it Lynn because with the usual plethora of venues, I’m fretting over where to devote my attentions this evening.
When I asked for help deciding where to go on Saturday night I conveniently forgot to mention one teeny weeny itsy bitsy detail, I was off to a Tango workshop, that afternoon, oops!

Event of the Weekend
Tango workshop, The Code of Turning, Saturday afternoon with the amazing Pablo Pugliese at the Dome, Tuffnell Park. Concentrating on the structure of Tango, fundamentally, everything stems from the turn, we call it the giro, he simply calls it the turn, side, back, side, front, he makes it sound so simple, logical, mathematical, sensible.
Initiate our own back step with a forward movement.
Identify, engage and draw a light on the floor with your perineal muscles (if you have to ask…)
Every move can be done from the opposite side,
Parallel system turn left
Parallel system turn right
Cross system turn left
Cross system turn right
Parallel system open
Parallel system closed
Cross system open
Cross system closed
Leader and follower open
Leader and follower closed
Leader open follower closed
Leader closed follower open

Quote of the Weekend
Pablo says… teaching Tango is like teaching a language, he teaches you the words and you put them together to make your own sentences.
Avoid any Tango teacher who teaches sentences!

Image of the Weekend
Pablo says… imagine painting on the floor as we move in Tango, he wants to see us painting lines with our feet, not dots. Well, imagine that. Hence the lovely whoosh whoosh whoosh sound I clearly remember from the milonga at Corrientes last week.

Irritation of the Weekend
There’s always one isn’t there? You know, the Eejit who sees a new face and pounces, keen to tell you that knows everything, knows everyone, has been everywhere, done everything, doesn’t need to take lessons and is gracing the workshop with his presence. Well, I met him, good grief. I wouldn’t mind but he was uncomfortable to dance with and the only yanker in the room. His leads weren’t much up to much either!

Admission of the Weekend
Pablo leaves the country today, but I’m eagerly awaiting his return in the Summer, with the promise of more workshops. This has nothing to do with his cuteness, his woolly hat, his bright green trainers, his sense of humour, his charming personality, his endearing smile, or his gorgeous mesmerising light brown eyes like pools of glistening caramel…

Challenge of the Weekend
The workshop was not upstairs above the pub where I’ve been before but downstairs, under the pub, which meant going… (deep breath Carole) through the pub. This may be stating the obvious but to leave I had to go back through the pub, it was packed, I mean full, it was full of people, not sitting in little groups chatting but they were quiet, watching some sort of ball game being shown from a massive floor to ceiling screen. There may have been a few women in the pub but it was hard to tell as they looked like the chaps.

This was definitely a challenge for me as I tried to blend in (!) Negotiating my way through the crowd with little room to pass anyone easily, was an unpleasant experience and one which I am in no hurry to repeat. Anyone who knows me can tell confirm that I limit my high glycaemic index food intake but after that experience I gave in and had some chocolate!

Advice of the Weekend

Originally posted by Lynn
I think its a one off - the blues room, so if you have other tango options in the week, then a nice relaxing MJ evening with good friends could be appealing.
Thanks Lynn, I owe you one

After the intense concentration of the workshop, not to mention hours in high heels, I was suffering from Tango overload and the thought of a milonga was losing it’s appeal.

Lynn , you’re a star and I’m so glad I took your advice. I haven’t looked but I guess the Who-Had-A-Good-Time-At-Hammersmith thread is on fire. I’ve always enjoyed and supported our Ceroc nights at Hammersmith but Saturday was knock out, the dancing, the blues room, the music, the dancing, the blues room, the music, awesome.

Compliment of the Weekend
After dancing with a favourite, who I haven’t seen for a while, he asked me where I’ve been, I mentioned that I’ve started Tango, he said “Yes, I could tell”.
Well I think it was a compliment!

Rediscovery of the Weekend
When learning something new it’s easy to forget past pleasures, a forumite told me that a night of jive last week left him feeling cheated because it wasn’t Tango. I understand that and sympathise but after Saturday, which was an incredibly uplifting night for me, I rediscovered my Joy of Jive.

Regret of the Weekend
Regrettably we only have 24 hours a day and we have to waste some of it sleeping.

Sadness of the Weekend
Sadly, I left Hammersmith early, I was having a great time, superb dances with delightful leaders but there were still so many people I wanted to dance with but I was trying to pace myself (ha ha) as I’d already decided to reserve just a little energy for a Sunday afternoon of Tango.

Welcome of the Weekend
I’ve been to this venue once, a month ago and enjoyed it. I was greeted yesterday like a long lost relative. Goodness, I’ve only been once, what if I’d been a regular for years? The people are really quite charming and delightful. The classes were a mixture of words and sentences (moves and routines) and well taught with lots of rotation, practise, help and support. After the class we had a selection of teas, biscuits and cake, followed by the milonga. With around 60 people the place was buzzing and the music was varied. These people are keen, the chaps were asking me to dance even when I was eating, carrying my hand bag, not wearing shoes, or with my coat over my arm.

Low point of the Weekend
The pub exit experience

High point of the Weekend
All of it, except … did I mention the pub exit experience?

Outrage of the Weekend

Originally posted by Philsmove
Nothing in Bristol to night
Good grief man, we must write to someone influential, your MP, the European Commission or Franck. What about your Human Rights?

Respect of the Week

Originally posted by JonD
Julie and I spent a couple of hours practicing AT. The first hour we were just doing those walking exercises…
Now that’s commitment, I'm impressed. I can identify with this and think it’s great. Also, your comments about practise, consolidation and freestyle, all spot on.

Apology of the Week

Originally posted by JonD
Erm, I can't make the Gotan concert because, erm, I'll be on holiday at Tango Valley. Sorry.
Apology accepted but is it really a valid excuse?

Idea of the Week

Originally posted by Lynn
(Forum tango holiday anyone?)
Ooh yes please Lynn, Tango Valley looks tempting, wooden huts, cottages, meadows, woods, swimming pools, gardens, waterfalls and Tango, count me in.

Phil, isn’t the first LTFG already planned for Jon’s arrival Wednesday 5th April? Have you booked your train ticket yet or are you driving up? Lynn, who’s collecting you from Euston, Tim, are you flying in to Gatwick or Heathrow? Anyone else coming?


Originally posted by Aleks
Went to first AT class last night and loved it! Can't wait for next week.Hi Aleks, welcome to our journey.






Sueño el tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…
One body four legs
Feel the music, dance the feeling

[Lynn]

Fabulous tango-blues filled weekend Sounds wonderful CeeCee
*Begins job search in London...*

Ooh yes please Lynn, Tango Valley looks tempting, wooden huts, cottages, meadows, woods, swimming pools, gardens, waterfalls and Tango, count me in. Looks good doesn't it? I think a group trip would be a lot of fun - and a lot of tango of course.

Phil, isn’t the first LTFG already planned for Jon’s arrival Wednesday 5th April? Have you booked your train ticket yet or are you driving up? Lynn, who’s collecting you from Euston, Tim, are you flying in to Gatwick or Heathrow? Anyone else coming?Euston?

I will be flying in (probably Luton actually) at some point for tango adventures. I hope you are keeping a list of all these great venues...

(I'm not at 'workshop' stage yet, but hope to try one soon. Apparently there are excellent workshops almost every Saturday in the summer in Dublin.)

[JonD]

It was a free class organised by the Edinburgh Tango Society.
Jenny & Ricardo do teach at Edinburgh Tango Society (http://www.edinburghtango.org.uk/tango/tangoclasses.php)but it looks like the class was run by someone called Douglas Cutt. It looks like a really good place to learn. If you go regularly, can you do me a favour and post anything you hear about workshops? The web site lists the teachers and dates but doesn't give details of what they are teaching until very late. We wanted to come up last year to see Oliver & Marisa but didn't find out the subjects of their workshops until it was too late to get cheap flights!


As we are discovering, its possible that only one lesson, one great tango experience, can be enough to light the fire of tango passion.
It reminds me of a great poster from the 1950s - in the foreground a drawing of a respectable looking girl smoking a joint and looking rather the worse for wear and a disreputable looking bloke leering in the background with the tag line "One Puff - A Tragedy"!

Thanks for your kind words about my posts. I feel a bit of a fraud because I really don't know much about AT and don't dance it at all well. My first exposure was 4 years ago next month but I didn't dance AT much for the first 2 years. In the last 2 years it's become my total passion but I still don't dance as much as I'd like (and I've only got 5 pairs of Tango shoes)! It's great to be able to come on this thread and chat about it without a sense that I'm boring everyone to death.

It'll be great to meet up at Southport and dance there - both AT and MJ. I want to get some tips from the Jangoistas on how they lead non AT dancers into AT type figures. I'm not sure if Phil will be there though as that's his flying season. I'm looking forward to coming to The Dome in London on 5th April - are you going to be there Feelingpink? Julie is going to come up with me so Clive and the elusive DavidJames (assuming he's reading this) are in for the treat of dancing with her.


{fantastic post}
And I thought I was an addict: CeeCee, you put me to shame! The Pugliese workshop sounds great - just my kind of thing.

I rediscovered my Joy of Jive.It's strange, but something similar happened to me. I went to Jive on Thursday and was really selfish about who I danced with - six tracks one after the other with Julie, three or four with each of another couple of ladies - and really loved it. On Friday I drove down to Plymouth so I could dance with Annie H, who I haven't seen for ages, and that was brilliant as well. I'd been feeling really jaded about MJ so it was wonderful to rediscover my joy in it.

Tango Valley looks tempting
I think Tango Valley is paradise but it might not suit everyone. Last year Julie and I toyed with the idea of asking Peggy & Vincent if we could organise an MJ week there for us and some friends. We decided against it because we couldn't guarantee that everyone would love it in the way we do.

The cabanes are very basic (cold outside shower, pee bucket, that sort of thing) but warm, dry and comfortable - like camping in an upmarket garden shed! (The house has all mod cons like hot showers and proper toilets). The atmosphere is very relaxed and rather "alternative" - Peggy invites guests to help with the washing up, sweeping the dance floor etc. so that you all feel like a community; while that works for me, I can imagine that some people might be a bit irritated. You tick your name on a list as you take another bottle of wine (the expensive stuff was €5 a bottle last year), help yourself to coffee and tea - you don't need money until you settle the bill at the end of the week. You walk down to the swimming place and will find some people naked and others in swimming costumes; nobody cares either way. Tango Valley is a "place out of time" - there are no pressures apart from those you bring with you. I put everything down - worries, keys, money, mobile - when I arrive and just pick up my dance shoes. You really don't need anything else. We'll be there for weeks 29 and 30 (16th - 29th July) and I can't wait!

[tattie]

Has anyone else had any issues with the culture of tango? I've been to a few events run by the Edinburgh Tango Society and as much as I completely love the dance and desperately want to be able to do it, I'm not sure I'm up for the snootiness of it all. Sorry if that offends any of the die hard tango fanatics here. I'm just wondering if it is worth persevering with or not.....

Firstly, very mixed opinion on whether women are even allowed to ask men to dance. Some people said we were, but they all seemed to be sitting round waiting to be asked. After an hour or so I got bored of that so trotted off asking people. One of them stopped after one dance (3 seems the norm) and said he had promised to dance with someone else. Someone else overheard a comment along the lines of "beginners shouldn't be here". We keep being told about events and encouraged to come along, yet nobody, even the organisers will dance with us! Is this normal?! At the end of the beginner class we were told to make sure we danced with lots of people - then all the beginners went home and the "experts" avoided eye contact.

So how do you get good at tango. I know you go to lessons, but how do you practice?

Advice? I'm about to give up and feel like I'd really be missing out if I did. Thinking about, even the teacher at Scarborough refused to dance with me - maybe I'm just really really bad at this tango thing!

[Feelingpink]

{lots of wonderfully witty comments & solid information}

[Welcome of the Weekend
I’ve been to this venue once, a month ago and enjoyed it. I was greeted yesterday like a long lost relative. Goodness, I’ve only been once, what if I’d been a regular for years? The people are really quite charming and delightful. The classes were a mixture of words and sentences (moves and routines) and well taught with lots of rotation, practise, help and support. After the class we had a selection of teas, biscuits and cake, followed by the milonga. With around 60 people the place was buzzing and the music was varied. These people are keen, the chaps were asking me to dance even when I was eating, carrying my hand bag, not wearing shoes, or with my coat over my arm. ...

Wow - friendly people, tango AND cake. Where was this? This sounds like heaven.

[Lynn]

Firstly, very mixed opinion on whether women are even allowed to ask men to dance. Some people said we were, but they all seemed to be sitting round waiting to be asked. After an hour or so I got bored of that so trotted off asking people. One of them stopped after one dance (3 seems the norm) and said he had promised to dance with someone else. Someone else overheard a comment along the lines of "beginners shouldn't be here". We keep being told about events and encouraged to come along, yet nobody, even the organisers will dance with us! Is this normal?! At the end of the beginner class we were told to make sure we danced with lots of people - then all the beginners went home and the "experts" avoided eye contact. Our teacher said this too - that men ask the women, not the other way round. I haven't had the chance to dance at a milonga yet though (and don't quite feel ready either) so not sure about it in practice. From what I have heard there can be some issues about 'attitude' but for me the dance tango would be worth ignoring some people's attitude for.

So how do you get good at tango. I know you go to lessons, but how do you practice? I think its more difficult without a partner. I would love some practice time. There are 'practicas' where you can go just to practice, but none in NI alas.

Advice? I'm about to give up and feel like I'd really be missing out if I did. Thinking about, even the teacher at Scarborough refused to dance with me - maybe I'm just really really bad at this tango thing! :hug: Oh dear, I hope you don't give up. It is worth it.

I'm surprised at the teacher at Scarborough though, I asked him up for tango and jive and he seemed very friendly. I sort of got round the 'asking the man' for tango by telling him at the start of the milonga time that I would like a dance with him at some point, then I let him come and ask me later. But maybe there were so many women wanting to dance with him and such a short time...?

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by tattie
Advice? I'm about to give up and feel like I'd really be missing out if I did.
Oh tattie, you poor poor thing, sympathy to you.

Please don't despair, every venue has it's own character and if you’re having a negative experience don't let it taint the whole culture of Tango. It's not Tango that is giving you a hard time its the people you've met.

There are some great people out there on the same journey as you who are just waiting to support you and share their experiences with you. What choices do you have for Tango, can you try somewhere else? Lynn and Phil are toying with the idea of relocating to London!

I’ve been to a few venues in London and from what I’ve seen it is not acceptable for women to ask men to dance. We may be the 21st century and as independent women we are used to making our own decisions, being in charge, taking control etc etc etc. However, on the subject of women asking men to dance in Tango, it simply isn't done. We just have to wait to be asked. Why not just enjoy it and go with the flow?

Please don't give up, our journey has only just begun.

We are here for you x






Sueño el tango
I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
The journey continues…
One body four legs
Feel the music, dance the feeling

[JonD]

Has anyone else had any issues with the culture of tango?
Not to any great extent. There does seem to be a strange contradiction - a dance where you have to "open" yourself to your partner and a scene where people can seem "closed" to conversation. Part of it may be that folk are "outside their comfort zone" - and that includes you. We can all be more sensitive to other people's behaviour and less sensitive to their needs in those circumstances.

Firstly, very mixed opinion on whether women are even allowed to ask men to dance.
The convention here in Devon is the same as for MJ - anyone asks anyone. In BsAs it's quite different but we're not in BsAs. We're "Devon Dumplings" and not as sophisticated as them that live in big cities so we don't feel we have to ape the Cabeceo (http://www.tejastango.com/terminology.html#C). Our masculine egos aren't so fragile that we are unable to cope with selection and rejection - it must be something to do with the clotted cream. So, ask me to dance anytime you like! (Sorry metropolis dwellers - I couldn't resist).


overheard a comment along the lines of "beginners shouldn't be here" Was it an intermediate workshop then? Having met Jenny and Ricardo I'd be surprised if they cultivate that sort of behaviour. Have a chat with Jenny if you get a chance and explain how you feel. I bet she'd be horrified. They can't nip that sort of thing in the bud if they don't know about it (and, in any event, it's probably just a couple of plonkers).


I'm about to give up and feel like I'd really be missing out if I did
Please don't give up! It is worth it, I promise. Of course you're really bad at it - you've only just started. Everyone is hopeless at first; I wobbled around like a kid wearing his mum's high heels for months and months. I'm not a huge amount better now. But once you experience that first, amazing, mesmerising connection to the music and your partner you'll never look back.

[Feelingpink]

JonD, I would love to go to the milonga on April 5 (& definitely to dance with you), but I already have something in my diary that evening ... however, have a cunning plan where I may be able to change the existing commitment. At the moment, both are in my diary. :blush:

[philsmove]

Has anyone else had any issues with the culture of tango? !
:hug: :hug: :hug: You need lots of:hug: :hug: if you are learning tango

The culture in Tango is different to MJ
but don’t be put off by the odd remark
The reward, when everything clicks makes it all worthwhile
But it is not an easy dance
Learning AT is the most difficult thing I have ever tried to do and like most people on this forum, I have come home disappointed and depressed

As for the lady asking a man asking for a dance. This subject is simply best avoided. Most people will tell you its OK but some people don’t approve

Another thing, refusing a dance seems more common in AT than in MJ, so don’t t take a refusal as an offence

Although dances go in threes at a Milonga. Having only one dance is not unusual at a Practica

How do you get good? I have been going to classes for about 6 moths I do 2- 3 a classes a week and I can now just about get round the floor provided I keep it slow and simple

It’s a difficult dance with no short cuts

But if you read Cee Cee’s posts you will realise its all worth while :flower:

[Lynn]

Thanks for your kind words about my posts. I feel a bit of a fraud because I really don't know much about AT and don't dance it at all well.

The cabanes are very basic (cold outside shower, pee bucket, that sort of thing) but warm, dry and comfortable - like camping in an upmarket garden shed! (The house has all mod cons like hot showers and proper toilets). The atmosphere is very relaxed and rather "alternative" - Peggy invites guests to help with the washing up, sweeping the dance floor etc. so that you all feel like a community; while that works for me, I can imagine that some people might be a bit irritated. You tick your name on a list as you take another bottle of wine (the expensive stuff was €5 a bottle last year), help yourself to coffee and tea - you don't need money until you settle the bill at the end of the week. You walk down to the swimming place and will find some people naked and others in swimming costumes; nobody cares either way. Tango Valley is a "place out of time" - there are no pressures apart from those you bring with you. I put everything down - worries, keys, money, mobile - when I arrive and just pick up my dance shoes. You really don't need anything else. We'll be there for weeks 29 and 30 (16th - 29th July) and I can't wait!Not sure about the cabanes (I've had basic, but in places like remote African or Nepali villages where you don't expect mod cons!). But otherwise I've been on holidays like that - where you are maybe on a rota to wash up, set tables etc. Simple tasks that need done, but if everyone does a bit they don't take long and - this is the point, mean that the organiser can run the holiday at lower cost as they don't have to employ as many people. Plus it does build friendships - when you are working alongside someone washing the pots, you can chat.

Do you have to go with a partner to Tango Valley - or in a group of equal nos male and female?

I think the beginner week will clash with my Spanish holiday, but maybe next year (and the year after BsAs....)

[Lynn]

Thanks for your kind words about my posts. I feel a bit of a fraud because I really don't know much about AT and don't dance it at all well.Oops, realised I quoted this last time and didn't add my comments. :blush:

What is really great about your posts Jon isn't just the knowledge and learning that you share with us (which is extremely helpful, you were missed on this thread when you were away on holiday!), its also the encouragement. You have been on the journey longer than us and know what we are going through!:flower:

Tango can be a frustrating experience at times - and its so good to know that others have been through the same thing. That's what I love about this thread - we are all at different stages and can sympathise with a difficult class or less than positive experience. :hug: And cheer one another on when we are learning, progressing, growing.

This forum community encouraged me and helped keep me going through almost 2 years of a MJ wilderness. When my current tango experience halts (for a while only hopefully) in 2 weeks time, this little tango community within this forum will continue to inspire me. My thanks to all. :hug:

[JonD]

this little tango community within this forum will continue to inspire me. My thanks to all
It inspires me too and I echo those thanks. When I read some of the bitchiness and "clever dick" remarks on some of the other AT forums like Tango-L (http://pythia.uoregon.edu/%7Ellynch/Tango-L/2006/threads.html) it reminds me what a friendly, unpretentious, helpful and encouraging spot this is! Learning AT is a wonderful journey and it's great to be able to share it.


Not sure about the cabanes
They're not quite as basic as all that! They have proper beds, little table and chairs, flowers in vases, sink, running cold water, electric light etc. If you were expecting a hotel room you'd probably be a bit disappointed but I think they're really quite comfortable and homely. We've stayed in "La Luna" the past two years and it's perfect - wonderful view, secluded and quiet; a little refuge in the woods. Chances are that most nights you'll be staggering back to your cabane by torchlight in the wee small hours having drunk too much wine and with sore feet from dancing so a good night's sleep is almost guaranteed.

This little spot in Italy (http://www.rogaia.de/en/dancing_classes.html#anne) could be an alternative. I don't know anyone who has been there but it looks pretty good!


When my current tango experience halts (for a while only hopefully) in 2 weeks time
We're here for you! After Southport we'll have to set up some LTFGs - there are things like the Tango Mango here in Devon, Tango Tangk (http://www.thewaylesstrod.co.uk/tango/tangkgnrc.htm) in Southampton plus tons of stuff in London (most of which CeeCee will have visited in the past week - I'm in awe of her stamina), Bristol, Edinburgh, Barcelona, Brussels. We'll just have to find a way of keeping costs down. Best of all would be a trip to El Corte in Nijmegen - you'd just love that place! Your classes will start again and don't be afraid of going to a milonga in Dublin - most people are friendly and helpful; think of CeeCee's milonga with cake!

[spindr]

The culture in Tango is different to MJ
but don’t be put off by the odd remark
Might be just as well to make sure that you are following the correct etiquette for milongas? The hints I was given were:

Always travel anticlockwise.

Don't back up -- if you have to dance a basic 8 then make the "step back" a "step in place"

There are two lanes:
The outside lane is the fast lane -- you don't stop in the outside lane.
The inside lane is the slow lane -- you can pause slightly more in the inside lane.

Don't pause too much to create a traffic jam behind you -- allow everyone to keep moving. Keep the whole room dancing, don't be selfish. If the person in front is static too long -- you can politely "tap them on the shoulder".

Entering the floor is like joining a motorway -- you don't join and then stop and hang about -- you get moving with the flow. Otherwise you risk holding everyone else up behind you.

Flashy moves (kicks and flicks) need room -- if there isn't any, then don't dance them. No ballroom tango. No tango fantasia.

Usual floorcraft, hygiene, etc. applies.

SpinDr.

[tattie]

Thank you everyone for your encouragement. Maybe I just need to hang out here a bit more. Reading about other people's experiences has made me think that maybe I would be depriving myself of something I could really enjoy if I let a bit of attitude get in my way... I think I may stick to classes in future and save the milongas for when I know what I'm doing a little bit more. I'll let you know how I get on.....

And the teacher at Southport - I know he was dancing with plenty of beginners, and seemed very friendly, but when I went to ask him, he said he was sitting out, then danced with someone else seconds later. I'm probably being oversensitive. I know these things can happen by accident sometimes. Fortunately a couple of dances with Viktor just after helped me to recover!

[Lynn]

We're here for you! After Southport we'll have to set up some LTFGs - there are things like the Tango Mango here in Devon, Tango Tangk (http://www.thewaylesstrod.co.uk/tango/tangkgnrc.htm) in Southampton plus tons of stuff in London (most of which CeeCee will have visited in the past week - I'm in awe of her stamina), Bristol, Edinburgh, Barcelona, Brussels. We'll just have to find a way of keeping costs down. Best of all would be a trip to El Corte in Nijmegen - you'd just love that place! Your classes will start again and don't be afraid of going to a milonga in Dublin - most people are friendly and helpful; think of CeeCee's milonga with cake!Thanks, there are rumours of a workshop in April and more Milongas in Newry (about 45 mins drive from me) but I will miss my weekly class.

However weekend visits to London, Bristol, Edinburgh etc are about to become more within my reach - starting a new and better paid (mind you it couldn't feasibly be worse!) job soon. :D

I have heard the tango scene in Dublin is pretty good (classes every night, several milongas a week, some great visiting teachers). And Dublin is a lovely city for a visit (I worked there for the tourist board for 2 months once). If there are any really good workshops on, anyone fancy a weekend in Dublin? (I can be tour guide!)

[timbp]

anyone fancy a weekend in Dublin? (I can be tour guide!)
Sounds great. can you move it a bit closer to Sydney?

[philsmove]

anyone fancy a weekend in Dublin? (I can be tour guide!)

:yeah:

A Bristol Dublin return costs about £20

[Lynn]

Sounds great. can you move it a bit closer to Sydney?Sorry!

Been PMing about Dublin and I'll keep an eye on any really good events coming up - the summer seems to be best time and we could have a weekend with workshops, milonga and some sightseeing/shopping. If I get any details of suitable weekends, I'll start a thread. I could look into accomodation options etc.

[JonD]

Been PMing about Dublin and I'll keep an eye on any really good events coming up - the summer seems to be best time and we could have a weekend with workshops, milonga and some sightseeing/shopping. If I get any details of suitable weekends, I'll start a thread. I could look into accomodation options etc.
Sounds good to me! I've never been to Dublin.


Might be just as well to make sure that you are following the correct etiquette for milongas?
Good advice! This link (http://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/2006/milonga_etiquette.htm) might be useful.

[Lynn]

:yeah:

A Bristol Dublin return costs about £20That's cheaper than I can get there by train from Belfast! (about £28 I think - though there is a much cheaper, albeit slower, coach option or I could drive).

[JonD]

We had another really good class last night. I didn't get there in time to join the beginner group but had a couple of dances with some beginner ladies in the 30 minute interval between their class and the Level 2.

We started with some more pivots. This time they were designed to be somewhere between the quick ones we did 2 weeks ago and the slow "sweet" ones we did last week. Ruth explained that this week we were looking for a sort of colgada feel (where the partners lean out slightly against each other to create that sort of centrifugal force feel) without actually opening the embrace.

The first pivot started with a sidestep to the left with the leader placing the toe of his right foot between the followers feet as she closed - it's important not to put too much of your foot into the "sandwich" or it makes the pivot really difficult. The leader places his weight on his right foot and disassociates to his left while placing his left foot, without weight, past the followers feet as if he was taking a step forward - you sort of "sit back" in order not to lead the follower to take a step. (It's as if you "step under" your frame). The leader then transfers weight onto his left foot and pivots clockwise while keeping that "sit back" feel, keeping his right foot just between the followers feet. It's lovely when it works but it's rather difficult to explain and to do! We then extended that so that you led the follower into a barida then the pivot. The follower was led to take a small step backward without weight so that her right foot was just "kissing" the leader's left foot in the pivot. Again very nice but impossible to explain in words.

After that we did a really fun exercise. The followers shut their eyes and held their arms out as if in open embrace but making a big open circle. As the music started we leaders went to a follower, stepped into the embrace and started dancing. The followers had to keep their eyes closed and try to sense who the leader was. We did it a couple of times with different partners then reversed it so the leaders were dancing with their eyes shut. That was interesting and rather lovely - I got Ruth first time and Jan the second (for some reason I can't get Jan to cross so I guessed it was her as soon as I tried to lead one). Fortunately the class is small and the followers were keeping an eye out so there were no collisions!

There are no more Tuesday classes until 9th May as Ruth is being a good mum and taking her daughters on holiday. I'm going to organise some practicas so I can continue to get my Tuesday fix! It's a lovely group with really friendly people and I hope it'll grow in May when some of the beginners move up. We had a chat about that last night and everyone was keen that beginners should join the Level 2 even though it will mean the lessons are less demanding. Poor Ruth can't do a Level 3 class in Exeter as the numbers just don't justify it yet - she'd have to stop doing a class elsewhere to make the time. We were thinking that we might hire a room in the same building and have a practica while the beginner class is on before the Level 2 - but maybe join the beginner class for the last 30 minutes so that the beginners get the chance to do their exercises with more experienced leaders/followers. That might work.

Jacqui and Stephanie, who I learnt have only been dancing since June last year - I thought it was over a year, are just brilliant. They've got a lovely "stillness" in their following. There's no sense that they are thinking about something else as you dance. Some followers feel like they are wondering if they put the cat out and that can be pretty horrible! Four of us went for a late night pizza after the class and it was great to drink wine and chat.

[Lynn]

We then extended that so that you led the follower into a barida then the pivot. The follower was led to take a small step backward without weight so that her right foot was just "kissing" the leader's left foot in the pivot. Again very nice but impossible to explain in words. You've described it like this somewhere else (can't remember where). When we did baridas in class it was much more of a 'push' by the lead. I was told as a follower to pretend my foot was asleep and I was powerless to move it myself (not by the teacher, by another dancer in the class). It leads to a somewhat uncomfortable, at times unbalanced and definitely undignified move. I know I'm not doing it right. :(

After that we did a really fun exercise. The followers shut their eyes and held their arms out as if in open embrace but making a big open circle. As the music started we leaders went to a follower, stepped into the embrace and started dancing. The followers had to keep their eyes closed and try to sense who the leader was. We did it a couple of times with different partners then reversed it so the leaders were dancing with their eyes shut. That was interesting and rather lovely - I got Ruth first time and Jan the second (for some reason I can't get Jan to cross so I guessed it was her as soon as I tried to lead one). Fortunately the class is small and the followers were keeping an eye out so there were no collisions! Ooh, that sounds fun! I've done a few 'eyes closed' dances, it helps me to feel the music and the connection and not get distracted.

[JonD]

When we did baridas in class it was much more of a 'push' by the lead.I've always been taught that a barida is an optical illusion. It looks like the leader is pushing the followers foot with his but, in fact, he just leads the follower to step as normal and keeps his foot gently in contact with hers. In reality I can't quite make it work that way - it helps a lot if the follower keeps a very gentle pressure so that the feet stay together. But it certainly shouldn't look or feel like a judo foot sweep! If you are having to force the follower's foot to move then it's damn difficult to stay on balance and prevent it looking like some kind of demented 3 legged race.


I've done a few 'eyes closed' dances, it helps me to feel the music and the connection and not get distracted.
Julie dances AT with her eyes shut most of the time and I've notice that Stephanie and Jacqui do the same. I wish I could as well but it just gets messy when I try! Sometimes I almost close my eyes and drift with the dance - I'm just aware of the obstructions without focussing on them. Not knowing who you are dancing with is rather liberating - you don't have any of that "expectation" thing. I think my dance with Ruth was much more "free" than if I'd know straight away that I was dancing with teacher!

[jivecat]

After that we did a really fun exercise. The followers shut their eyes and held their arms out as if in open embrace but making a big open circle. As the music started we leaders went to a follower, stepped into the embrace and started dancing. The followers had to keep their eyes closed and try to sense who the leader was. We did it a couple of times with different partners then reversed it so the leaders were dancing with their eyes shut. That was interesting and rather lovely - I got Ruth first time and Jan the second (for some reason I can't get Jan to cross so I guessed it was her as soon as I tried to lead one). Fortunately the class is small and the followers were keeping an eye out so there were no collisions!



I don't mean this is any kind of unpleasant way (Far from it, actually. There's not much point in saying what a sensual dance it is if people aren't using their senses.) but wouldn't you be able to tell most partners straight away from smell and touch without actually having to dance a step?

Thanks for the etiquette tips - I would only ever ask people I know fairly well for a dance. In my limited experience of milongas it seems to be expected that ladies must sit there demurely until invited to dance. The upside of this is that the men are particularly considerate and courteous and will deliberately work the room looking out for ladies that have not had the chance to dance much. Given that leaders are in short supply, this seems to work out fairly. It helps to create that civilised and dignified atmosphere that is so different from MJ.

I close my eyes to dance tango at every opportunity, and have started doing this in MJ too, when conditions are safe!

[Lynn]

I've always been taught that a barida is an optical illusion. It looks like the leader is pushing the followers foot with his but, in fact, he just leads the follower to step as normal and keeps his foot gently in contact with hers. In reality I can't quite make it work that way - it helps a lot if the follower keeps a very gentle pressure so that the feet stay together. But it certainly shouldn't look or feel like a judo foot sweep! If you are having to force the follower's foot to move then it's damn difficult to stay on balance and prevent it looking like some kind of demented 3 legged race.Yep, that's what it looks like and it feels awful!

The week we learnt it, if I moved my foot by myself, the lead I was dancing with would stop and tell me off. He said he had to move my foot. I will try the pressure thing as you have suggested. Thanks.:flower:

[philsmove]

. .....The followers shut their eyes .....

One of our MJ classes did a variation of the birthday dance

The birthday boy was blindfolded and he had to guess who he was dancing with

O Dear poor chap:whistle:

He guessed some else was his wife :blush:
And when he dance with his wife, did not recognise her :blush: :blush:

At a tango class we did an eyes close exercise with BOTH partners closing their eyes. :drool: We danced on the spot, to a very slow, seductive track - there was a big moan when we had to open our eyes

John D have tried following with your eyes closed

[jivecat]

He guessed some else was his wife :blush:
And when he dance with his wife, did not recognise her :blush: :blush:


:rofl: I would imagine he was in trouble when he got home!

So much for my theory, then

[JonD]

and when he danced with his wife, did not recognise her
Phew, I thought I had been incredibly dense! One of the clues that it was Ruth was the texture of her jumper but it was really the style of her dancing and the shape of her body that gave it away more than anything else.

I don't follow in AT anywhere near as much as I'd like and consequently I'm not very good. I do tend to close my eyes when I'm following a good leader - I try to shut out everything other than the connection and the lead. That's partly because I love the feeling of being swirled away in a cloud of music without having to think and, if the leader is a man, partly because I'm not that comfortable dancing close embrace with a guy. I'm sure I'll get used to it in time but I do find being that close to some hairy brute quite dislocating - perhaps I should play rugby in order to get acclimatised (though the last time I was roped into a game I broke my jaw). With a less competent lead I keep my eyes open in order to pick up as many clues as possible to where they are asking me to go.


He said he had to move my foot.
And so he does - but by a lead, not by shoving it along the floor! It's the same in a sacada (or displacement) - some people seem to think that you shove the woman's leg out of the way when, in reality, you just step into her space and that causes the follower to pivot and her leg to get out of the way. We were playing with walking sacadas a few weeks ago - for a giggle I was doing what Ruth called "nuclear sacadas" by deliberately flicking the follower's leg with mine - dramatic, dangerous to anyone in the vicinity, disturbing for the follower but quite fun for the leader.

[JonD]

I know, two posts on the trot from the same person; bad form and all that. But, I wanted to bring Lynn's NI dilemma (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=215570&postcount=201) back to this thread from the London one!

So, I'm proposing that we all do a "rain dance" to end the AT drought in Northern Ireland - your next AT dance will be perfect. Just think "Let there be AT classes in Belfast for Lynn" just before you take the first step!

[Lynn]

I know, two posts on the trot from the same person; bad form and all that. Nope, not bad form. (Lots of post in a row when there is still time to 'edit' etc is a bit annoying.) Anyway, you're posting because someone got sidetracked in North London when she shouldn't have been...:blush: :whistle:

So, I'm proposing that we all do a "rain dance" to end the AT drought in Northern Ireland - your next AT dance will be perfect. Just think "Let there be AT classes in Belfast for Lynn" just before you take the first step!:hug: :hug:

[philsmove]

but I do find being that close to some hairy brute quite dislocating .
:yeah:

Six men over tonight

:tears:

im off down the pub

:cheers:

[CeeCee]

Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear
So far I’ve been fortunate in my travels and the sun has been shining all the way, unfortunately, last night it poured with rain.

As mentioned many times this journey is a mixture of fun and frustration, however, I learned a sad lesson last night.


Originally posted by Me just a few days ago
Quote of the Weekend
Pablo says… teaching Tango is like teaching a language, he teaches you the words and you put them together to make your own sentences.
Avoid any Tango teacher who teaches sentences!

So what did I do? I went to yet another class run by Yours Truly who has a reputation for teaching sentences. Well last night the excelled himself and we were treated to a whole paragraph.

He was in a funny kind of mood before we began. As his other teacher took the warm up, he barked instructions from the side of the hall. Then we were all then left waiting while the two of them had a ‘domestic’ infront of everyone. It was unnecessary, unprofessional and unimpressive.

Our ‘paragraph’ contained a selection of boleos, sacadas, ?sentadas and barridas. All this in one class, were we rehearsing for a show? The leaders weren’t shown how to lead these moves and the followers weren’t shown how to follow them. Good grief, how ridiculous.

Half way through the class a couple arrived and their presence caused quite a stir for some. They were obviously celebrities within our little world as there were hushed whispers of how good they are and how they dance at whatever venue. Our teacher’s mood changed and I can only describe it as he seemed to be showing off. No idea what that was all about.

When the class was over I was subjected to a recap by a keen leader who wanted me to go through the routine, blah blah blah. I foolishly mentioned something about not remembering moves, waiting for a lead, learning how to follow but he wasn't interested, he wanted to make sure he had the routine fixed and sorted before going home.
So this is a dance of improvisation? Heaven preserve us.

As if this wasn’t bad enough I was asked to dance by the celebrity in the room and it felt like a competition to see how quickly I could move my leg out of his way before he kicked me. If it happened once I’d be less than happy but continual flicks and kicks for a whole flipping record, it was exhausting and humiliating. He is supposed to be a really good dancer and was keen to tell me he has been dancing for two years learning from the same teacher!!! (Guess who) He’s no doubt used to dancing with the celebrity that he arrived with and after his lack of courtesy or consideration with me, she can keep him.


Originally posted by JonD (so poetically)
I love the feeling of being swirled away in a cloud of music
I agree.
What I was subjected to wasn’t dancing, it was more like being in a martial arts tournament.


Originally posted by Lynn on our North London thread
A 'bad' dance in MJ and we would just shrug our shoulders and dance with someone else. The same in tango can crush us.
I wanted to cry and I definitely wanted to go home.

It’s taken me this long to gather my thoughts together to post anything about the experience because I was too upset and knew that I’d rant on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on…






I didn’t choose Tango, Tango chose me
Feel the music, dance the feeling
The journey continues…
One body four legs
Sueño el tango

[Feelingpink]

Ewwwwww, honey, that's horrid. When you were describing your partner who wanted to get all the moves, I so have the urge to suggest an MJ class, where he can learn a double back pretzel and be REALLY flash :wink:

As for two-year wonder boy, did you find out where he dances (so you can avoid them/him like the plague?) Did you see anyone turn him down? If he's mean to be so flipping good, why wasn't he taking his tight little tush to the really advanced laydeez exclusively?

:hug: :hug:

[Lynn]

It’s taken me this long to gather my thoughts together to post anything about the experience because I was too upset and knew that I’d rant on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on…Oh dear. :hug: We need to send some of those postive thoughts your way.

Think of it as a demonstration of what tango is not.

I hope for your next tango experience the sun shines and there are no clouds.:flower:

[JonD]

horror story
Tons of sympathy! It sounds like you survived with your sense of humour just about intact though it must have been trying. I guess we've all been to lousy classes in all sorts of disciplines and at least this teacher didn't smell of cat food! A venue to avoid in future.


?sentadas"Sentada: From sentar - to sit. A sitting action: A family of figures in which the lady creates the illusion of sitting in, or actually mounts, the man’s leg. Frequently used as a dramatic flourish at the end of a dance". I've never led one - well, not knowingly! It sounds kind of fun though.

"Mr 2 Years" is going to be in for a bit of a shock when he gets onto a crowded floor - unless he just ploughs through everybody. Mind you, they might actually be quite good and were just showing off at that class. The way he led CeeCee makes me think he's got an arrogant streak so I'm probably being a bit kind! Suggest he goes and dances in Winchester - I'm told the floorcraft there is horrendous and shin pads are recommended (never experienced it myself though) so he'd probably fit in.


When you were describing your partner who wanted to get all the moves ......
Male solidarity demands that I defend him! Moves are our comfort blanket - think of it like we're sucking on a corner of our "itty". We men will always be poor vulnerable souls and you ladies ought to be really, really kind and nice to us and praise us for being able to do "hammerhead upside down pretzelised round the worlds" even if we're off time and the music calls for a simple pause. Seriously, he'll get over it as his confidence builds. I went through a phase where I bemoaned my lack of vocabulary; "If they'd only teach me some moves I'd be able to dance". Being able to lead nothing more than a step or an ocho gets incredibly frustrating particularly when you know you're a master of the "hasse marie". It takes a while to realise that AT only consists of steps and pivots and the skill is to link them together in a way that fits the mood and the music. Simplicity is scary - it means we can't cover our lack of balance, failure to listen to the music or lack of connection with our partner under a flurry of lovely, fiddly, complex, impressive looking stuff!

[spindr]

The way he led CeeCee makes me think he's got an arrogant streak so I'm probably being a bit kind! Suggest he goes and dances in Winchester - I'm told the floorcraft there is horrendous and shin pads are recommended (never experienced it myself though) so he'd probably fit in.
Gosh Jon,
Are you talking about Flavio's class in Winchester (www.tangowithflavio.co.uk) or Tracie's annual Tango, Salsa, Swing ball held in Winchester (www.tracieslatinclub.co.uk)?? I've been to both on occasion -- I seem to have escaped without appreciable bruises :)

Perhaps it was some other company -- care to elaborate? :devil:

SpinDr.

[Swinging bee]

Rather than hi-jack the north London thread any more, or start a 'NI' localised thread, I thought I would start a thread for anyone learning Argentine Tango to share their experiences.

I have now signed up for the AT class - haven't done any classes yet - they start next week. :clap:


Classes have started up at the Pfizers social club in Sandwich Kent, went last night and there is a good standard of teaching.....perfected a move that we have been trying to master for ages:clap: .....£5.00 on the door. lasts about an hour and a half before they go on to other latin dances...

[JonD]

Are you talking about Flavio's class in Winchester (www.tangowithflavio.co.uk) or Tracie's annual Tango, Salsa, Swing ball held in Winchester (www.tracieslatinclub.co.uk)?? I've been to both on occasion -- I seem to have escaped without appreciable bruises
It was the annual Swing Ball thing - that was held fairly recently wasn't it? For clarity, the comments were made only about the AT element of the Ball, not the Salsa or Swing.

A friend said that he'd never go back as the AT was ruined by the lousy floorcraft. He'd been kicked more than ever before in his life. His comments were echoed by a few others to boot - if you'll excuse the pun. I remember that the same was said by those who went to the 2005 event so I've concluded that it must be a long term problem. I hadn't realised it was a Tracie's Latin Club thing - Edu Bozzo and Steve and Debbie Morrall teach there. I know them all slightly and I'd be very, very surprised if they don't stress the importance of floorcraft. Maybe a soccer team have taken up AT and just visit for the ball! Glad to hear that you survived without injury though.

I've never been to the event or danced in that area so I'm just going on the comments of others - but some of those people are experienced dancers and they don't have an axe to grind (and neither do I). It's certainly feedback I'd want to hear if I was the organiser. If you know them it'd be nice if you can pass it on, on a non-attributable basis for preference!


Classes have started up at the Pfizers social club in Sandwich Kent
Great! AT is taking over the whole country - that's nearly as far east as you can get in the UK. Good to hear that you're dancing AT as well. Nelson and Karen are big on WCS at the moment so Julie and I haven't managed to get them to "see the light" yet! (Well, they are teaching WCS so they've got some excuse). See you at Southport, I hope. What was the move you were working on?

[spindr]

It was the annual Swing Ball thing - that was held fairly recently wasn't it? For clarity, the comments were made only about the AT element of the Ball, not the Salsa or Swing.

A friend said that he'd never go back as the AT was ruined by the lousy floorcraft. He'd been kicked more than ever before in his life. His comments were echoed by a few others to boot - if you'll excuse the pun. I remember that the same was said by those who went to the 2005 event so I've concluded that it must be a long term problem. I hadn't realised it was a Tracie's Latin Club thing - Edu Bozzo and Steve and Debbie Morrall teach there. I know them all slightly and I'd be very, very surprised if they don't stress the importance of floorcraft. Maybe a soccer team have taken up AT and just visit for the ball! Glad to hear that you survived without injury though.

I've never been to the event or danced in that area so I'm just going on the comments of others - but some of those people are experienced dancers and they don't have an axe to grind (and neither do I). It's certainly feedback I'd want to hear if I was the organiser. If you know them it'd be nice if you can pass it on, on a non-attributable basis for preference!
I can't really comment on this year's -- I was mostly in the Swing room -- but the previous year, I was in the tango room a fair bit and had absolutely no problems. It takes two people to collide, and blaming the other party is the (very) easy option.

I know Tracie takes the floorcraft issue extremely seriously -- it's raised in the very first beginners' class -- and Steve and Debbie actually gave a specific lesson before the ball in 2005, so that everyone was well aware of specific techniques for dancing in extremely confined conditions. The tango etiquette post I made earlier was based on my imperfect recollections of Steve and Debbie's lessons.

It seems a shame that you want to cast aspersions on the local tango dancers -- they're a particularly friendly and encouraging bunch :)

SpinDr

[Lynn]

Practice, practice, practice...

Nothing new tonight. For our warm up the teacher got us to join hands in a circle and walk round using giro steps, I asked her during the lesson at one point when I was waiting out if she was going to teach giros tonight and she said yes but must have changed her mind, so probably next week. This week we spent the two hours practising sequences and steps from past weeks and she picked up on certain points about lead and follow and musicality. So basically lots of time to practice, which is what we need.

Low points - waiting out several times again, and strangely as I left I felt a little sad...:(

Good points - there was something good in every practice dance with every partner. None were really frustrating, each was enjoyable for different reasons.

High points - actually applying some musicality, the leader paused for me to do some nice decorations which fitted a section of the music, before leading me off again as the music changed.

With another lead I was wondering why I was beginning to feel a little light headed - I realised I was so intense in following that I had stopped breathing! Breathe Lynn!

Funniest point - I did the shoe shine with one guy - he paused (appearing slightly startled), and said 'Do that again!', I did and he said with a grin 'I've never had a strange women rub her foot up my leg!' :blush: :rofl: I then realised he must have missed the week when we were taught that (and clearly none of the other followers are doing it!)

There will be a followers workshop in April, and possibly something fairly regularly in Newry, and rumours of something else in Belfast in May (though no-one seems to know anything for definite). :D

[JonD]

It seems a shame that you want to cast aspersions on the local tango dancers -- they're a particularly friendly and encouraging bunch
I was thinking about my comments this evening and I think you are absolutely right to level that criticism. My apologies. I hadn't joined up my thinking and appreciated that it is a Ball, not a local AT event. Making a comment that implied that local Winchester dances were a bunch of biffs was quite unwarranted, unfair and, frankly, crass. If I could -ve rep myself I would. It's a bit like branding dancers in Sussex as dangerous on the dance floor because the standard of floorcraft on the main floor at Bognor at Franco's event is a bit dodgy at times. It was stupid of me, and equally stupid to suggest that the organisers can do anything about it. My apologies to them and the people who dance in that area.

The fact that people I know find the standard of floorcraft at that particular ball rather painful remains - and these are people who have danced on very crowded floors in BsAs, Nijmegen and sundry other spots throughout the world. However, the message must be NOT that it is a problem caused by dancers from the Winchester area, or the responsibility of the people who organise that event or teach in the area, but that it is something all AT dancers must think about whenever they venture onto the floor. If you don't respect the other dancers then you aren't an AT dancer no matter how good your technique or your vocabulary of figures - the "code of the milongueros" demands it.

My apologies again spindr and thanks for picking me up on it.

[CeeCee]

Weather Warning

Due to inclement weather, there has been a momentary pause in the Tango journey. Travels will be resumed when the clouds have passed, when the rain has stopped and when the sun shines again.


Emotion Warning

I have been truly overwhelmed by the kindness and support I’ve received from you lovely lovely people. Hope I’ve managed to thank each of you personally but to the gorgeous people who sent me caring, unsigned, anonymous messages, huge thanks to you too. You all made me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Carole x

[philsmove]

Weather Warning
Carole x


The British Isles enjoys (if that’s the right word) one of the most changeable weather patterns in the world

Like you was seduced by Tango, but it can be an unrequited love

Maybe Tango is a dance for hot latin weather and temperaments

:hug: :hug: :hug:

[JonD]

The British Isles enjoys (if that’s the right word) one of the most changeable weather patterns in the world
It's spring and the weather is even more erratic than normal, but the summer is coming and we'll soon enjoy warm balmy days.

I know just how you guys feel. In the first 2 years after I started there were periods of months where I didn't dance AT. Partly that was due to the fact that the nearest classes were an hour away and I was working a lot harder than I am now. But part of it was that I felt uncomfortable and unwelcomed in the Totnes AT scene - people didn't seem as welcoming or encouraging as MJ dancers. Even though I knew that the way I felt was caused by me rather than the behaviour of others it didn't go away and, if I'm brutally honest, it is still there on occasion. That's one of the reasons I go to the beginner and Level 2 classes in Exeter - to try and help create an inclusive, welcoming atmosphere.

I have a theory that AT people are less overtly friendly than MJ people because AT engages your emotions at a much more profound level. Because we "open" ourselves in the dance we tend to be more "closed" outside the embrace. Maybe it's a way of correcting the balance so that we don't give out the wrong messages; you have an incredibly connected dance with someone where you feel like you've touched each other's souls and then feel a bit disturbed when you're talking about the weather afterwards. After all, you've probably only been that emotionally exposed to a lover before - particularly if you are a guy.

That step from beginner to Level 2 is a big one. Generally there is a mixed range of dancers at improver level classes because there aren't that many intermediate classes. Think about the leaders, who will join our Level 2 in May: they can just about lead an ocho but have to stop and think before they can step off on opposite feet; they know that their balance is terrible but haven't had time to improve it; they have to actively think about pretty much everything they are doing physically so musicality and floorcraft are poor. They know all that, are frustrated by all that and desparately want to dance. Looking up they see someone who has been dancing for much longer and appears able to produce figures at the drop of a hat, who appears to learn new patterns almost immediately and do them with great confidence and aplomb. Oh, and then they find themselves leading a lady who seems to have incredible talent, looks relaxed and happy dancing with the more experienced leaders but seems distant and "stiff" when she's dancing with them (because she's concentrating like hell to try and follow a less clear lead and provide some help). Anyone in that situation is going to feel intimidated, that they are "imposing" on the more experienced dancers and dragging down the standard of the class (and if you are competent at another dance style you are going to feel even worse).

The more experienced dancers do want you to join the Level 2 class. Maybe they aren't very good at showing that (and you'll sometimes get some self-important plonker who likes to make others feel small) but they know that the only way they will get more partners is if you continue to learn. It is tough though and we'll all have nights in the future where we walk away from a class or milonga feeling absolutely devastated - it comes with the emotional engagement. Try to remember the sunshine though; those magical dances where there is nothing else in the universe but the music and your partner. Bliss!


Maybe Tango is a dance for hot latin weather and temperaments
There's evidently a big Tango scene in Finland!

[spindr]

There's evidently a big Tango scene in Finland!
There was a whole BBC4 (?) programme about it -- but the only real note I made was about a singer called "Olavi Virta".

SpinDr

[philsmove]

That step from beginner to Level 2 is a big one. !

Looking at the Devon web site (http://www.tangoindevon.co.uk/regular.html) there seems to be 3 levels

In Bristol there are only 2

Beginners and Improvers

Most of the men Improvers having been dancing for at least two years

[JonD]

Looking at the Devon web site there seems to be 3 levels
There is a "Level 3" in Totnes but not here in Exeter. I haven't been to a class down there for an age - I normally go to the milonga on a Sunday night or to a few nights of the Mango but that's about it for Totnes. Julie and I have got so much material from classes and courses that we really need to spend time practicing, with the odd private lesson thrown in to correct any developing faults, rather than having yet more classes. One day I will be able to do a backward ocho without wobbling!

Our Level 2 in Exeter has a range from about 6 months to 4 years (me!) but the majority have been dancing a year or less so it's probably more inclusive. My view is that if it's Level 2 then the class is for people moving up from beginners - if beginners aren't encouraged to do that then it's all a bit pointless! It'll be interesting to see what happens in May when new folk join us - I just hope we can keep the same friendly, encouraging atmosphere.

You're a really good MJ dancer - I'm willing to bet that you're a much better dancer than most of the leaders who've been dancing AT for 2 years. All they've got that you haven't is more experience in AT and that will only come with practice so you ought to do the class. If you get a sense that anyone is looking down their nose at your AT then remember that you could blow them off the floor if you were dancing to almost any other kind of music! (It's an awful thing to think, but I do find it helps).

The other point is that you're unlikely to find a "practice partner" at beginner level. Most people seem to team up at the improver stage when you've both really got the AT bug and realise that classes alone aren't going to crack it. You need practice time.

[Lynn]

Emotion Warning


I have been truly overwhelmed by the kindness and support I’ve received from you lovely lovely people. Hope I’ve managed to thank each of you personally but to the gorgeous people who sent me caring, unsigned, anonymous messages, huge thanks to you too. You all made me feel warm and fuzzy inside. Likewise. Being of a rather 'logical' disposition for a woman :rolleyes: (usually), I'm somewhat surprised at the levels of emotions tango can evoke. You can't really dance tango without engaging your emotions, and that leaves you open to emotions of sorrow and frustration it seems as well as the highs and joy. I've been on a high with MJ (at weekenders mainly) but the lows I can feel about tango.

I'm so grateful for PMs, virtual hugs and others shared experiences. The support and encouragement does help.:hug:

[Lynn]

The other point is that you're unlikely to find a "practice partner" at beginner level. Most people seem to team up at the improver stage when you've both really got the AT bug and realise that classes alone aren't going to crack it. You need practice time.I'm realising that I really need to have lots of practice time, rather than learn masses more new stuff and that I could progress my tango with occasional private lessons and regular practice time with a dance partner.

I priced private lessons last night. I even tried to suss out the guy I find easiest to learn with (he did come on his own, last night at least and I found out his name). If I could build up a little bit more rapport I would perhaps ask if he wanted some practice time (on the principle that if you don't ask, you don't get) but we don't seem to talk much and I am rather shy...:blush:

Perhaps if there is some sort of 'next level' (not ready for improvers yet but perhaps beginner level 2 or something!) I might be able to find someone wanting to practice and take private lessons.

[Graham W]

..ventured of to a Cardiff milonga & ended up happy, a gr8 little venue - a woodedn norwegian church moved into the docklands development, sep cafe & brill music...

G

[Lynn]

Wow, all those positive thoughts (ta JonD) must be working...

There is talk of... milongas in Belfast!

I know that some people have been wanting this for several years and nothing has been happening, but I think that this time there might be a bit of an AT scene developing in Belfast. How exciting!

Of course it all still has to happen, and they might try it and not enough people go to make it work, but I'll make sure I'm there!

[JonD]

here is talk of... milongas in Belfast!
Yippee! Keep the "rain dances" going folks and there'll be a fully fledged AT festival in Belfast within the next year. We have the power!

I went to the milonga in Totnes last night and had a really good time. I'd been feeling poisoned and fat all weekend after a splurge of business dinners but forced myself to go out yesterday and am really glad that I did. I had some great dances with Julie and some lovely ones with a couple of beginner ladies. I also had some good dances with a couple of good followers who I haven't danced with for ages. I was flattered that they seemed to like it! I really feel that I'm improving at the moment and it's a real buzz. Mind you, at about 10.15 I became a total flid - everything just went; musicality, balance, lead, the lot. I danced like a complete plonker. The last track, at 10.30, was Katie Meluah "Come away with me" and I absolutely slaughtered it. Poor Julie was chuckling as I blundered around the room. It's a good job she's got such a great sense of humour!

There was one woman who started AT 5 weeks ago and has just had private lessons with Ruth, no group classes. She's good - she told me she'd done a lot of ballet in the past so her balance was excellent. I'm not sure I'd go the exclusively private lesson route even if I could afford it. I think group lessons are a lot more fun!

This morning I made a couple of phone calls and have arranged practicas for Tuesday nights between now and when classes start again on 9th May. I've let everyone from the Level 2 know and will get Ruth to email the beginner group. It should be fun to get together and work through stuff - I'm looking forward to it. Anyone who is in the area is welcome - Mint Methodist Church, off Fore Street, Exeter EX4 3AT between 8pm and 10pm on Tuesdays. Cost is £16 divided between the number of people who turn up. Sorry, but I can't offer accommodation as my house resembles a squat and I'm far too embarrassed to let anyone into it until I've had a serious spring clean!

[philsmove]

have arranged practicas for Tuesday nights .....!

OK I am on

CU tomorrow
I will see if I can a car load from Bristol:cheers:
I can provides accomadaton in Bristol if any one is interested

[JonD]

OK I am on
Excellent! It'll be great to see you. I know Chris (male) and Jacqui are coming along but haven't heard back from anyone else. Julie can't make it because she's demoing Salsa near Bodmin! Hopefully we'll have enough followers - if not we can spend a couple of hours doing some walking exercises and I can follow a bit.

See you tomorrow.

[JonD]

The practica was good fun - well, I enjoyed it anyway! Phil and Graham came down from Bristol which proves that they are total addicts, plus we had 7 from the Level 2 class in Exeter. Gender balance was good with just one man over.

I drove everyone mad by introducing them to some walking and pivoting exercises. I think they all think I'm totally crazy because I mentioned that Julie and I had spent a whole hour doing them a couple of weeks ago! Still, I don't think that there is any substitute for spending time on your "walk" - you've got to take time to work out what your feet are doing, how your leg is moving, what is happening with your posture and to practice your balance through every moment of the step. (I'm going to take my video camera next week which will be a useful, if scary, tool). People then spent time working on different elements and it was good to see that pretty much everyone danced with everyone else. It's so nice to have time to work on a movement! Three of us went to the pub afterwards which was great way of ending the session.

Ruth rang everyone from the beginners group yesterday but none of them turned up. Hopefully that's down to the short notice. She said a few sounded really interested so, with luck, we'll get some of them along next Tuesday.

It was good fun and pretty painless to organise as well. If there is enough interest I might try and set-up a fairly regular practica on a Wednesday after the classes start again. I think it'd help people to feel that their AT is really developing and get through the first couple of "frustration phases" more quickly!

[philsmove]

The practica was good fun - well, I enjoyed it anyway! Phil and Graham came down from Bristol ..............
I!

Really enjoyed Tuesday evening In Exeter

It was great to dance with some new partners

But the highlight was being led, not by a hairy man but, by a beautiful young lady

If your are a leader I really recommend learning to follow

Not only will increase your understanding of what makes a good and a weak lead; It is realy nice to dance with out having to worry what move to do next

[CeeCee]

Happiness is…

Finding the inspiration to move on, post and share…

Oh yes, oh yes, open the windows and enjoy the fresh air, put on the shades, the sun is shining.
Now I’m back on track.

Tonight The Dome, Tuffnell Park – awesome!

Questioning
Friendly welcome from an elegant lady behind a table, she asked “which class, beginners or intermediates?” What a loaded question? How do I know? At some venues you’re a beginner for a minimum of two years, regardless, then at other places just having the ability to count to four seems to be enough reason to progress. Whatever, I opted for beginners.

Welcoming
People came in and smiled and nodded towards me as they walked by. A chap sat at my table and started chatting, quick and a bit keen to tell me how his wife doesn’t share his obsession with Tango. Then someone else starting chatting, then another, they were warm, friendly and welcoming.

Dividing
When the assembled masses were divided up I was told to stay in the intermediate class as the absolute beginners disappeared downstairs, leaving about 30 of us upstairs, almost equal numbers, just two men over.

Walking
Gonzalo and Solange were the delightful visiting teachers from Argentina who took our class. For nearly two hours we walked and walked and then walked some more. We walked in practise hold, in close hold, in the embrace, in mixed couples then they really upset the apple cart by asking us to dance girls with girls, boys with boys, (the guys were not happy) while we took turns to lead and follow without holding.

Leading
Gonzalo and Solange said that all the leader has to do is walk backwards, forwards or sideways and that the giro is just those moves with changes of direction. Hooray, someone with the same philosophy as the dreamy eyed Pablo, it’s great to have some continuity.

Following
Gonzalo and Solange said that all the follower has to do is look lovely, have the correct technique and wear pretty shoes.

Confusing
Gonzalo and Solange told us to walk leading with the heel. I was so confused I’ve always been told the opposite. Many people expressed surprise then they explained how we lead with the heel and why. It made sense, I felt balanced, controlled and lighter. Suddenly, walking felt more natural and coordinated. Eureka! All those hours of trying to force my lower limbs to do unnatural, uncomfortable things in front of the mirror are now hopefully a thing of the past.

Ornamenting
Gonzalo (perhaps a borderline fetishist) has a thing about heels, he referred to them continually for one reason or another throughout the class. One of his gems is that we have an essential tool at our disposal, however, not for the well known self-defence option. Our heels can be used to add ornaments to our own style of dancing. Solange demonstrated and wow, they’re not kidding, it was mesmerising.

Inspiring
At the end of the class we were treated to a dance from our teachers. For a whole track they danced ‘simple’ ‘basic’ steps, no flashy lifts, kicks or flicks. It was spectacular and a real inspiration. That was dancing worth watching and added to making my evening worthwhile.

Dancing
As the lights went down for the milonga, dancing continued in the beautifully prepared hall. There were tables set out with pink, red and blue table clothes and pretty glittery candle holders, gorgeous silver and purple fabric draped over the back of the stage and a huge screen showing tango dancing. It’s great to be asked to dance and even nicer to dance 3 or 4 in a row with charming, supportive, patient, non-judgemental leaders.

It was a truly exquisite experience and has reacquainted me with the enchanting, intoxicating world of Tango.







The journey continues...

Improvisation - Communication - Intuition

[JonD]

CeeCee, what a great post! I'm so glad that the "weather" has improved.


Gonzalo and Solange said that all the follower has to do is look lovely, have the correct technique and wear pretty shoes.
What a wonderful philosophy; Julie will approve of that! It reminds me of a comment by a local Salsa teacher: "The leader's job is to create a frame in which his partner can be beautiful". So true.


But the highlight was being led, not by a hairy man but, by a beautiful young ladyYes, I noticed that! She is lovely and she's a wonderful dancer - the scary thing is that she only started AT last June. By the way, she's a surgeon and spends her days cutting into people's chests. She has a very direct route to the heart!

[Lynn]

CeeCee glad to hear of your wonderful experience last night, a good experience in tango goes so far to overcome any bad ones.:flower:

Jon, glad your practica went well.

Its the last night of my current course tomorrow night which is sad, but I feel I have got some foundations laid, some basics in place that hopefully I can build on.

Last night at Ceroc I had a tango dance with a friend who has also been coming on Fri nights. It wasn't appropriate music alas, and we had to stick to simple steps with not much progression due to space restrictions but it was lovely.

[Lory]

An extremely inspiring experience

Today, Kev and I were lucky enough to have a private lesson with Omar Ocampo and Mónica Romero (http://www.losocampo.com.ar/english/index.html), who came highly recommended by our Tango teacher.

In fact, when we arrived, Kele and her partner were having the lesson before us!:waycool:

They're really the most likeable couple and put us at ease straight away.:na:

They put on a piece of music and said 'Dance!' :what: after a couple of minutes, I think they'd summed us up well enough to decide how the lesson should progress.:blush:

Omar took me and Monica took Kevin.:grin:

As soon as I was in his embrace, he took measures to readjust me, explaining my many faults, :sick: some of it made sense immediately and some of it just felt plain awkward:rolleyes:

He explained that, I should be applying pressure with my forearm against the top of his arm and my hand should merely drape over his shoulder. This felt great and made total sense!:cheers:

He favours the 'angled' embrace (dunno what it's called), it's hard to explain but our bodies seemed to form an open triangle, this felt less natural, as I was supposed to also be facing this middle of his chest with mine:confused:

We danced and WOW, I really can Tango! :yum: (well it FELT good anyway :whistle: )

As a point of order, the cross is without doubt lead! :cool: He made it all seem so simple, basically, I had no choice and there was no mistaking it! :worthy:

The revelation came, when I discovered that the cross can be lead from all sorts of moves.

Most of our lesson was taken up with covering the basics again, tweaking what we thought we already knew. Adding a coat of gloss to the undercoat!

We swapped partners a few times... Omar lead Kev, Kev lead Omar and Monica lead me (my prayers were answered when I didn't have to lead her! Phew!)

At one point, Monica took me to one side, and spoke to me in a hushed whisper, as if she was going to tell me some girlie gossip.:hug: She stressed how 'us girls' have to be very patient and supportive to our precious men, as they have a VERY hard job and it takes years of practice and confidence building to become a proficient lead. ;) (I hope I didn't give the impression I was some kind of impatient witch:blush: )

Private note to Kev.... you were brilliant today! :worthy: :respect: :hug: :wink:

I think one of the most powerful and lasting feelings that came from the lesson was, that pausing, is sometimes far more impressive, than yet another step!:waycool:

And, that simple, slow, clearly lead, positive movements are what its about.

Paying full attention to the girl, with everything you've got, inc. looking at her features, as well as eye contact and the soft, yet firm confident caress, is what makes the dance feel sexy.:drool:

Anyway, it was all so good, that Kev's booked us in for another session for next week!
:clap: :cheers: :clap:

[philsmove]

THANK YOU

Its difficult to believe, that this time last week, I was at all time low and had virtually decided to give up Tango

If was not for all the PM's from you lot, I probably would have

Well it’s been a fantastic week of classes and Practicas

And I am really looking forward to tomorrows Milonga

I cant’ thank you all enough

And finally, a big thank you to Frank, for letting us have a little corner of the forum
:cheers:

[Whitebeard]

THANK YOU

Its difficult to believe, that this time last week, I was at all time low and had virtually decided to give up Tango

If was not for all the PM's from you lot, I probably would have

Well it’s been a fantastic week of classes and Practicas

And I am really looking forward to tomorrows Milonga

I cant’ thank you all enough

And finally, a big thank you to Frank, for letting us have a little corner of the forum
:cheers:

A pretty big corner I would aver ;-)

(But it's great to witness such enthusiasm and enjoyment even though I don't participate.)

[Lynn]

Its difficult to believe, that this time last week, I was at all time low and had virtually decided to give up Tango Oh dear, that's you, CeeCee and myself all having 'tango woes' in the past couple of weeks. In a strange way its encouraging, because you realise you aren't the only person feeling low or frustrated about tango and you know from other people's experiences that it will get better.
And finally, a big thank you to Frank, for letting us have a little corner of the forum :yeah: :respect: And to all who contribute in this corner. :hug:

[JonD]

I am really looking forward to tomorrows Milonga
I am so, so glad to hear that!


you realise you aren't the only person feeling low or frustrated about tango and you know from other people's experiences that it will get better.
It is very comforting to know that others battle through those lows. There are times when I really need to take a break from AT - it engages the emotions so strongly that the frustration of not being able to master an element seems intensified to an unbearable degree: I feel a boleo in the music, reach for it but can't quite grasp it in time. But the dance is so intense that I can't "step away"!

I've just had the strangest evening at Jive. I was coaching and the consolidation class was a bit flat - you know when you're trying to create energy but it just seems to be absorbed rather than returned. In freestyle I had some cracking dances with a number of ladies but Julie's following was a bit "out". Not her usual brilliant self. The connection wasn't quite there, perhaps because she's been dancing ballroom this afternoon - we put some AT into our Jive and nothing but the really simple stuff was working. We just laughed about it and, if I'm honest, I found it good to be reminded that it isn't just me who has "off nights".

Lory, that sounds like a great lesson; thank you for describing it so well. We were taught the "angled embrace" at Tango Valley last summer and it feels odd to me too. It offers more space for figures on the open side while retaining a lot of the intimacy of close embrace but feels very strange when I'm trying to walk in a straight line! I've no doubt that we'll find the places that it fits into our dance and become comfortable with it as we improve. I like the concept of a "fluid embrace" where you move between close, angled and open embrace as the movement demands.


And finally, a big thank you to Frank, for letting us have a little corner of the forum
Echoed to the rafters! It really is good to be able to share our enthusiasm and frustrations on the Forum. Frank, you've created a very special bit of cyberspace - thank you!

[WittyBird]

I have been persuaded by a certain forumite (not mentioning any names Reginald) to start the beginners tango :rofl:

I have found this thread of the upmost interest but never the less I am absolutely cr@pping it.

I think I will get completely frustrated with it. But WB likes a challenge :D
How should I tackle this?

[spindr]

I think I will get completely frustrated with it. But WB likes a challenge :D
How should I tackle this?
Make you mind a complete blank...
...that was quick :)

Tango's only walking -- admittedly it's like walking crossed with nuclear physics, but it's only walking.

SpinDr.

[WittyBird]

Make you mind a complete blank...
...that was quick :)

That's mean. I was looking for serious suggestions :sad:

[spindr]

That's mean. I was looking for serious suggestions :sad:
Ok, I'll rephrase: the

"make your mind blank" == "Don't anticipate"

"it's only walking" == "Don't panic"

Anyway, if things go wrong it's always the leads' fault(*)

SpinDr

(*) If the follower does something wrong it was a bad lead, and if the leader does something wrong it's their own fault.

[philsmove]

That's mean. I was looking for serious suggestions :sad:

Hello WB Welcome to out little corner of the forum,:hug: tell me, what is on the mind of these ladies
To tango all other thoughts must be switched off. Then immerse yourself in the dance and the music

[DianaS]

A little request. Will gentlemen please refrain from wearing patterned shirts for tango training.
Last night a gentleman was wearing a very small check in black and white, unfortunatley it had the effect of making my vision blur, as while focusing on his chest the checks merged and colours seemed to come out of them.
Lika a black and white telly that needs some adjustment.

[Lory]

I I like the concept of a "fluid embrace" where you move between close, angled and open embrace as the movement demands.

Ahh yes, he also showed how my arm should be free to slide up and down his arm, so switching between close and open was absolutely seemless.

I think the point was, I shouldn't hold/press or grip with my hand at all, I should give just enough pressure to feel the lead but not so much that he can't adjust the distance between us with complete ease!

To WB.

Keep an open mind ;) It's different! :wink:

Don't even begin to compare it to MJ. :what:

And If in doubt, do NOTHING. (which believe me, is far more difficult than it sounds! :blush: )

[philsmove]

..... Will gentlemen please refrain from wearing patterned shirts .......


ah... now I know why women close there eyes

[Dorothy]

Keep an open mind ;) It's different! :wink:
Don't even begin to compare it to MJ. :what:
And If in doubt, do NOTHING. (which believe me, is far more difficult than it sounds! :blush: )

Good advice Lory.
I have been to a couple of tango classes, but find it hard to follow:confused:
I kept anticipating (apparently).

[philsmove]

:
I kept anticipating (apparently).


I hope this makes sense

If you have been taught a routine, try to forget it
Imagine you have no idea what your leader is going to do
Switch off, and may be close your eyes
And try and find the “connection” with your partner
Once this is established you don’t need to anticipate, you will know
As Lorry says AT is nothing like MJ
PS Even if the leader makes a “mistake” you must follow them
PPS there are no mistakes in Tango:whistle:

[JonD]

he also showed how my arm should be free to slide up and down his arm, so switching between close and open was absolutely seemless.
That's really important - if you "grip" at all then it feels really horrid for the leader as he tries to open the embrace. Another advantage is that it allows you to slide your arm to a spot from which you can pull the leader's hair at the scruff of his neck. That's what Julie does if I've got my head tilted forward and am "looming over her"! (Sorry Kev).

Welcome to the the journey Wittybird! Don't be nervous - you're obviously a really good dancer and that will transfer to AT, as will the fundamental priciples of lead/follow, connection, movement etc.. You're going to find that the way in which those principles are applied and the precision demanded is quite different to MJ though. (Phil's, SpinDr's and Lory's advice is excellent). Suddenly finding you are unable to just get up and dance is bad; discovering that you can't even walk is horrendous! You are going to get frustrated but it sounds like you've got exactly the right attitude. AT is a wonderful, wonderful dance and I really hope you love it.


I kept anticipating (apparently).
I was working on this at the practica last week. It might help if you have an image of the lead being transmitted to your working foot - the leader isn't trying to move your body but is placing your foot where he wants it and then asking you to move your weight over it (or not, as the case may be). The lead has to travel right through your body; from your centre, down through your leg. If you feel that then it might help a bit. (I liken it to helming a catamaran - you are sitting at the back on the upwind side but actually steering the bow on the downwind side, diagonally across the boat from you. If you haven't sailed then that'll make no sense at all!)


Will gentlemen please refrain from wearing patterned shirts
Brilliant! I hadn't thought of that one! I'm just glad that I'm a plain shirted sort of guy.

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Lory
I think one of the most powerful and lasting feelings that came from the lesson was, that pausing, is sometimes far more impressive, than yet another step!
Yes yes yes yes yes, totally agree.


Originally posted by Wittybird
I think I will get completely frustrated with it. But WB likes a challenge
How should I tackle this?
Suggestion… read this thread, the whole thread and then read the Tango related threads, all of them.

Tango isn’t just a dance - it is an emotional state. Are you prepared to relinquish total control of your emotions?

Are you ready to lose control of your vulnerability, your energy, your frustrations, your elations, your hopes, your fears, your happiness and your sadness?

The overwhelming intensity can be exhausting.

Every step IS Tango
Every breath IS Tango


Are you ready for this?










































Ooops, sorry about that guys. Got a teeny weeny bit carried away there, went off into some sort of trance.

Welcome to the journey Wittybird, you’ll love it.



the journey continues...
I didn't chose Tango, Tango chose me

[WittyBird]

Are you prepared to relinquish total control of your emotions?

I do regularly anyway :D


Are you ready to lose control of your vulnerability, your energy, your frustrations, your elations, your hopes, your fears, your happiness and your sadness?

Welcome to my world :rofl:


The overwhelming intensity can be exhausting.

Thought that was just me :eek:


Are you ready for this?

Absolutely I could do with some sanity



Welcome to the journey Wittybird, you’ll love it.

Well Thank you Oh goddess of dance :worthy:

Thank you to Spin Dr, Lory, JonD and PhilsMove for your advice and kindness

[Lynn]

WB - go for it, try it. But as CeeCee says, learning tango involves our emotions, so if you get frustrated - don't worry - that's all part of it and we all go through that. :flower: But all the frustrations are worth it as you fall in love with the dance, the experience, the feeling, that is tango.

*Sigh*

Off to class now.

[Lynn]

Tonight - again we started with something new done separately in lines - some syncopations to get people used to quick, quick slow, and also boleos I think? Leg behind other leg, flick up and round from the knee. We didn't do this in pairs, once we partnered we did revisions of barridas, ocho curtado, 16 count basic and ganchos. All good practice. Much needed.

In the last 10 minutes she introduced us to mirror giros, but I didn't get the chance to really practice this with a lead.:(

Sad that tomorrow night would have been my first opportunity to go to a milonga - and it clashes with the first Ceroc NI freestyle.

But I'm possibly not ready for a milonga yet anyway. And the good news is... in April at some point there will be a 1 hour followers workshop...and there will be another course starting in May. :clap: I think it could be a continuation, though as last time it will be a 'book asap to get a place'.

[JonD]

boleos I think?
Sounds like it. Everyone seems to be learning them at the moment!

And the good news is...
Excellent news! It's great that the drought isn't going to occur as forecast. See what we can do with "positive waves"? Now, everyone, as you start your next dance please think "Jon is going to learn to time his lead for a boleo perfectly". I need all the help I can get!

[CeeCee]

Happiness is…

Making the right choices
I had a choice of (sorry Lynn) four Tango venues last night. I decided against the Fandango experience in Wimbledon, the Urdang Academy in Covent Garden, the Welsh Centre in Grays Inn Road and chose www.negrachatangoclub.com in Holborn.

It takes a lot of energy to go to new venues not to mention the pleasures of negotiating the streets of Central London. (Ignore where the website says free parking area, it should read NO parking area!)

By the way, who introduced the rickshaw into Central London traffic? They are a blessed nuisance.

Luck or Fate?
Absolutely delighted to see the two teachers Solange and Gonzalo from the Wednesday night class at the Dome. To think I could have gone anywhere, what a result!

I was so pleased to see them that if they’d repeated last week’s lesson, I’d have been happy. However, last night we covered soltadas? soladas? sotadas? (Jon, help!) Interesting move and means ‘letting go’, involves the follower continuing her turn/giro around the leader as he rotates infront of her, mmm… nice.

They continued with the principles of building upon the structure of the turn.

Gonzalo says, "you can indicate to the girl what you would like her to do but you can’t make her do it".

Gonzalo and 'the heel' again. Solange’s shoes are really the prettiest ever and while crouching down on the floor, stroking Solange’s heel (!) he said “Girls, your heel is an artistic tool, use it, play with it, show it, it’s an accessory not to be wasted.”

Confident or Nervous?
It takes courage for guys to dance with a stranger at a tango class. We girls have it easy, following is a doddle, leaders have my complete admiration especially when they are proficient at another dance. So, I didn’t take it personally when a new leader last night took a swig of beer before taking my hand a few times during the class! He talked incessantly, nervously? desperate to succeed, keen to learn. He made frequent comparisons with Salsa and Merengue, analysing, thinking, questioning and doubting.

He sounds perfect for Tango.

Brighton or Barnes?
Met a wonderful group of people who drove two hours just to attend the Negracha last night. They complained about having three Tango teachers, two venues and one milonga a month. When I told them about Lynn’s situation, they felt fortunate. There you are, it’s all relative isn’t it? Yes there is more choice in London but we don’t have the seaside.

One of the Brighton girls is an enchanting dancer, I was watching quality. No need for elaborate flicking and kicking, no danger to passing dancers, she moved exquisitely. Turns out she’d just returned from a two month trip of daily dancing in BA. Wow, it really showed.

Milonga or Freestyle?
The class was intense. I was mentally exhausted. I needed to unwind.

Choice 1, continue chatting to delightful people, comparing venues, shoes, holidays and stuff (apparently Berlin is great for a weekend of Tango)
Choice 2, fly across town and catch the last few minute of jive at my favourite place.

Okay, you’ve guessed it but was it worth it? Absolutely! I had three exhilarating dances, to the last three tracks of the night, what a rush.

No escape from Tango though, somehow managed to chat to two jivers, who’ve been bitten by the Tango bug and are flying to BA next week for month!






«Many people believe that legs and feet are most important when dancing. I don't think so. I believe it all starts above, in the mind, and it goes down to the heart. The feet are just the consequence», Juan Carlos Copes

[philsmove]

Bristol Milonga
If your learning to play football, you don’t expect to suddenly find your self in middle of a first division game,:eek: but in Tango, this is exactly what seems happen. You have plucked enough courage to ask someone for a dance and tentatively make your way round the floor, bearing in mind “ that in Tango there is no such thing as, too slow”. But ahead, behind, to you left and to the right of you, dancers are moving fast, very fast. Concentrating on keeping with the music, you start to move out their way, but someone else, has their eye on the same space. You “lift” your partner, pause and manage to hold the beat, another space opens, but the road ahead is blocked, you try to remember the move that takes you smoothly through a right angel:confused:
Well I managed an enjoyable hour or two without getting a yellow card but I need a lot more lessons and Practicas
Later we moved on to LeRoc at BAWA. The floor is even more crowded and people are dancing much faster, but with out a second thought I’m in the thick of it
Anyhow lets hope the next Milonga does not clash with BAWA

[JonD]

I had a good time at the Totnes milonga last night. Julie had gone to see a Scots Salsa band in Exeter - "Salsa Celtica" or some such; do they really have bagpipes or was Julie winding me up?!

Being on my own meant that I danced with a number of ladies that I'd normally miss. One was a rather unpleasant "cling-film" tanda with a woman I feel is rather predatory - I'm sure she's not but it's the reaction I have to her. Some of the other dances were great, including one with a beginner who is going to be positively brilliant if she sticks with it. We did the last 3 dances together and she left beaming and saying "see you next week" so hopefully she will get addicted. I also made use of the "Tango Hop" - I led a volcada and the follower draped her leg round my right leg as I stepped back on my left to create the lean. Stupidly I overbalanced and, with my right leg locked in place, the only alternatives were to hop backwards on my left or fall; I hopped. It made a nice percussive sound on the off-beat which I thought rather added to a quiet section of the music. Everyone that noticed joined my partner and I in a burst of laughter - it was funny and I learnt a valuable lesson.

On Sunday afternoon Julie and I had a couple of hours practice which was great. We do work well together. First we played with pivots and then just walked to try different strengths of lead/resistance and ways of taking steps. At the end we just danced four Tangos - marvellous. She is brilliant!

[JonD]

Me again!

I had an interesting conversation with Ruth on Sunday about how early people should start paying serious attention to how they walk; posture, how their foot meets the floor, feet "kissing" etc..

At the practica last week I showed people some walking exercises which I thought they might find useful. My intention was both to "break the ice" (there were a number of people who'd never been to a practica before and I thought it would be good to give them something to start on and laugh together about) and to gently suggest that paying attention to these things would benefit their dancing. My personal experience is that figures and patterns are really difficult until you refine your balance and that you need to develop your balance in the right posture. (Ruth was teasing me about "Major D" drilling her students - "Squad will advance in Tango order; by the centre slow walk; left, right, left, cross .....")

Ruth, on the other hand, put the argument that it's more important to get people dancing than worrying about the fine points of posture and movement. I can see her point of view and I'm sure that many people who don't share my delight in mastering the fine points may be put off by the need to "just walk". In Ruth's view, the first thing you start learning and the thing you are still working on when you die is walking. Indeed, she was saying that she spent 6 weeks last year doing nothing but reconstruct her posture and walk - a bit like a golfer changing their swing! I'll go along with that but I'd prefer to get my walk right early in the process and so minimise the pain of "unlearning" bad habits in the future.

I'd be grateful to hear other people's opinions of this. I was planning to take my video camera to the practica tonight so people could see what they need to work on if they chose to use it. Having reflected, I'm not going to now. I don't want to put anyone off!

[jiveknight]

I am interested in learning Tango but it seems really complex and as though it takes a lot more time than mj, swing or other dances. I once watched a Robert Duvall documentry about it which got me interested and I like the music but haven't really tried it. I don't have much extra time so don't want to make a half baked attempt.

So, is it relatively easy to get the basics or is it as complex as it looks?
Also, where is the best place to start learning near south london, sussex or kent area?

[Feelingpink]

Me again!

I had an interesting conversation with Ruth on Sunday about how early people should start paying serious attention to how they walk; posture, how their foot meets the floor, feet "kissing" etc..

At the practica last week I showed people some walking exercises which I thought they might find useful. My intention was both to "break the ice" (there were a number of people who'd never been to a practica before and I thought it would be good to give them something to start on and laugh together about) and to gently suggest that paying attention to these things would benefit their dancing. My personal experience is that figures and patterns are really difficult until you refine your balance and that you need to develop your balance in the right posture. (Ruth was teasing me about "Major D" drilling her students - "Squad will advance in Tango order; by the centre slow walk; left, right, left, cross .....")

Ruth, on the other hand, put the argument that it's more important to get people dancing than worrying about the fine points of posture and movement. I can see her point of view and I'm sure that many people who don't share my delight in mastering the fine points may be put off by the need to "just walk". In Ruth's view, the first thing you start learning and the thing you are still working on when you die is walking. Indeed, she was saying that she spent 6 weeks last year doing nothing but reconstruct her posture and walk - a bit like a golfer changing their swing! I'll go along with that but I'd prefer to get my walk right early in the process and so minimise the pain of "unlearning" bad habits in the future.

I'd be grateful to hear other people's opinions of this. I was planning to take my video camera to the practica tonight so people could see what they need to work on if they chose to use it. Having reflected, I'm not going to now. I don't want to put anyone off!
If I'd 'just' come to tango having never danced partner dance before, then I would want more of a quick fix - I'd want to learn steps and 'stuff' as well as exercises. Since I've come from MJ and know that good technique is really important (I'm not saying I have it - :wink: ), I'd be happier to spend time getting the basics right. I think a video camera might be a similar thing. I'd be comfortable with it because I know it would help me, but if this was my first foray into partner dancing, I wouldn't at all (ye gods man, this is britain, people don't have themselves filmed or photographed :devil:). Perhaps if you are dancing with someone you think has promise, you could offer to video them discreetly after explaining how it helps you.

Love your description of your running a practica ... when are they again? ... :sick: :what: