London Underground

[Missy D]

I am so cross this morning!:angry:

I have a 12 year old daughter who attends a school which is just under 5 miles away. The journey only takes her 15 minutes by train which is really good. Never have i had to complain about the dreaded 'Northern Line' until today. The cost of the journey is 50p each way so in all cost £5 a week. Today my daughter goes to catch the train and to her suprise and mine it now costs £1.50 each way costing £15 a week. And no free buses either! Apparently she now needs an 'Oyster Card'. So I went to the train station and they said I needed an application form but guess what? They dont have the forms there! Only for adults. I have to go to the main post office. And can i do my application there? Ur no! I have to then send it off to 'Transport for London' along with a £5 admin fee. This will take up to 4 weeks too!! She will then get cheaper travel. Has anyone seen any ads for this because i havent and i use the train quite often. The 'Oyster Card' requirement for children came in force on the 2nd January 2006.

Buses are free for children under 16 all day and night. How stupid is that? I know i would have been having a field day with this opportunity and never would I have attended school. I think travel for Children school age should be free on the trains and buses during peak times. Say 7.30am to 9.30am and 2.30pm to 4.30pm.

What do others think?

[TiggsTours]

I am so cross this morning!:angry:

I have a 12 year old daughter who attends a school which is just under 5 miles away. The journey only takes her 15 minutes by train which is really good. Never have i had to complain about the dreaded 'Northern Line' until today. The cost of the journey is 50p each way so in all cost £5 a week. Today my daughter goes to catch the train and to her suprise and mine it now costs £1.50 each way costing £15 a week. And no free buses either! Apparently she now needs an 'Oyster Card'. So I went to the train station and they said I needed an application form but guess what? They dont have the forms there! Only for adults. I have to go to the main post office. And can i do my application there? Ur no! I have to then send it off to 'Transport for London' along with a £5 admin fee. This will take up to 4 weeks too!! She will then get cheaper travel. Has anyone seen any ads for this because i havent and i use the train quite often. The 'Oyster Card' requirement for children came in force on the 2nd January 2006.

Buses are free for children under 16 all day and night. How stupid is that? I know i would have been having a field day with this opportunity and never would I have attended school. I think travel for Children school age should be free on the trains and buses during peak times. Say 7.30am to 9.30am and 2.30pm to 4.30pm.

What do others think?
I haven't seen any adverts at all, but I've heard an awful lot about it in the news over the past 4-6 weeks.

[LMC]

TT, there was no need to quote Missy D's entire post surely?

I agree with the principle. Price hikes in public transport are outrageous. The companies always claim lack of investment over the last however-many-years, but now they are privatised, some of the percentage rise has to be the responsibility of greedy shareholders.

The Government has abdicated responsibility and should, IMO, take it back if they are so keen for people to leave their cars at home. In terms of petrol/car maintenance it's a close call whether it would be cheaper for me to drive to work rather than take the train. If the train service gets any worse in terms of "value for money" then I shall be jobhunting for something closer to home.

Unfortunately, Missy D's daughter doesn't have a choice - she has to go to school. The increased charges are a disgrace.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Unfortunately, Missy D's daughter doesn't have a choice - she has to go to school. The increased charges are a disgrace.Oh, for goodness sakes, stop whinging, all of you.

Oyster cards have been around for what, 3 years now? And I've been seeing posters on the tube about child-rate photocards being withdrawn for *months* - there's absolutely no excuse for not knowing.

50p for a child rate fare is bloody cheap - that covers any single or two-zone journey not including zone 1. The reason the cash fare is expensive is to "encourage" you to get an Oyster card -and guess what? It works! Cash handling is one of the biggest and most expensive headaches for the Underground, and I'd rather they put their resources into the engineering and platform staffing of stations. Not having people locked up in ticket offices counting coins.

[stewart38]

Its been advertised for months re the changes and the impact it would have im afraid :sad:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Buses are free for children under 16 all day and night. How stupid is that? I know i would have been having a field day with this opportunity and never would I have attended school. I think travel for Children school age should be free on the trains and buses during peak times. Say 7.30am to 9.30am and 2.30pm to 4.30pm.

What do others think?I think that's a poor idea. Anyone who stays late at school to do homework or after-school activities would have to pay more to get home. And what about school holidays? Are we going to reprogramme ticket machines on buses for them too? If the want of a bus fare is the only thing keeping you in school then you have problems.

[TiggsTours]

TT, there was no need to quote Missy D's entire post surely?

I hit "Quote" instead of "Post Reply" by mistake, no big deal really.


I agree with the principle. Price hikes in public transport are outrageous. The companies always claim lack of investment over the last however-many-years, but now they are privatised, some of the percentage rise has to be the responsibility of greedy shareholders.
I totally disagree with the price hikes! They are constantly hiking the prices up over the years, always saying that its so they can make improvements, well, lets see some of the improvements that were promised from the last price hikes before they go making some more!

A few years ago, I was working on the HSBC relocation of over 8000 staff to Canary Wharf, at the time, Transport for London had just made a price increase, and as we were having such a major relocation, we worked very closely with them. They sent us a list of improvements that were planned from the increase. These improvements weren't made at the time, and, low and behold, were listed again as planned improvements that were making yet another price increase necessary just a year later! They still haven't been completed (although work has started) and are being listed yet again as improvements that will be made out of this increase!


The Government has abdicated responsibility and should, IMO, take it back if they are so keen for people to leave their cars at home. In terms of petrol/car maintenance it's a close call whether it would be cheaper for me to drive to work rather than take the train.
An opinion that is shared by many! I, unfortunately, don't have the option of driving to work, as I work in zone 1, and we don't have parking at work, I'll just have to pay the higher prices, while my salary is not increased anywhere close to covering the change.

If the train service gets any worse in terms of "value for money" then I shall be jobhunting for something closer to home.
Problem here is that I could not possibly demand the same sort of salary out of the City, so either I stay in the city and pay more in travel costs, or I take a cut in salary and work out of the city, either way, I end up out of pocket.


Unfortunately, Missy D's daughter doesn't have a choice - she has to go to school. The increased charges are a disgrace.
Disgrace indeed. Ken Livingstone, don't you just love 'im!:angry:

[TiggsTours]

Oh, for goodness sakes, stop whinging, all of you.

Oyster cards have been around for what, 3 years now?
Charges on Oyster cards are going up too, just not immediately. I've got an Oyster card, I'm still going to whinge about price increases.

What happens if you live out of London and need to travel on mainline trains? Oyster doesn't cover them.
What if you are just visiting London for the day? Why should you be penalised as there is no need for you having an Oyster card?

I think Oyster cards are great, but until they can be used by everyone, they shouldn't be penalising people for not having one.

[TiggsTours]

Buses are free for children under 16 all day and night. How stupid is that? I know i would have been having a field day with this opportunity and never would I have attended school. I think travel for Children school age should be free on the trains and buses during peak times. Say 7.30am to 9.30am and 2.30pm to 4.30pm.

What do others think?
I think its a great idea, especially seeing as they clearly state that if any under 16 year old is caught abusing the system, being abusive, destructive or violent, it can be instantly withdrawn.

I'm sure that if I was a 14 year old yob (and before I get shouted at, I know the majority of 14 year olds aren't yobs, but lets face facts, some are!) and I knew that if I didn't behave on the busses I'd have to start paying to use them, and they were vital to me getting round to see my mates, and cauzing havoc elsewhere, then I'd behave myself for the 10 min bus ride, making the journey a far more pleasant experience for everyone else.

[Katie]

What happens if you live out of London and need to travel on mainline trains? Oyster doesn't cover them.

This really annoys me! For instance if I've paid £6 on pre-pay (Oyster) for the day and unexpectedly I have to go to Clapham Junction from London Victoria I have to pay £3.20 return on top of that! :angry: The stupid thing is, is that if you had a paper ticket/travelcard then you don't need to pay the extra and can use the card in the ticket barrier at any mainline rail station. :confused:

[Robin]

Oh, for goodness sakes, stop whinging, all of you.

50p for a child rate fare is bloody cheap - that covers any single or two-zone journey not including zone 1.

So how come I used to get a free term-time pass when I was at school??
Did something change ?



The reason the cash fare is expensive is to "encourage" you to get an Oyster card -and guess what? It works! Cash handling is one of the biggest and most expensive headaches for the Underground, and I'd rather they put their resources into the engineering and platform staffing of stations. Not having people locked up in ticket offices counting coins.

Ermmm ... not sure I agree. Its a way to force people to use Oyster cards enabling TFL to monitor who goes where - a whole can of worms ... as in which stations can we close or limit access to in the future as well as a whole load of other "useful" data.

It also means they get less reclaims as it is not as straightforward a system to claim back your fare - and the Oyster system frequently deducts more than it should for your daily travel - its suppose to cap automatically at the travelcard rate from your first journey - ie full fare (£8) before 9.30, cheap day after 9.30; but I've found on numerous occassions it goes over. You need to then get a printout and then send it off !

Personally I think its a way of introducing larger fare increases as I suspect next year they will end the "reduced" Oyster fare anyway

Pretty much every business deals with cash handling - Tesco's seem to do ok with their income so methinks that doesn't come into it. They still need to have a minimum level of staff for emergency evacuation purposes anyway - thats what the current strikes are about, so they will still need to have bods at stations.


Sorry - just my rant!

[TiggsTours]

This really annoys me! For instance if I've paid £6 on pre-pay (Oyster) for the day and unexpectedly I have to go to Clapham Junction from London Victoria I have to pay £3.20 return on top of that! :angry: The stupid thing is, is that if you had a paper ticket/travelcard then you don't need to pay the extra and can use the card in the ticket barrier at any mainline rail station. :confused:
And yet we keep being told that pre-pay is cheaper! I had a similar experience once, I wanted to travel to Barnes from Clapham, it me £3.20 on top of what I'd already paid to travel to Clapham as I had pre-pay, but my parents had a daily travel card, so it didn't cost them a penny. So, as an Oyster card holder, I had to pay more, I'm sure that if that got taken to court under trades description (as oyster is constantly advertised as cheaper) then there's a chance it would stand as a valid case.

Does anyone know how the monthly season passes work out? Its cheaper for me to add one of those to my oyster than to use pre-pay, but not if those prices are rising too. Its only ever pre-pay on Oyster that they say is cheaper (although evidence shows clearly isn't).

[TiggsTours]

So how come I used to get a free term-time pass when I was at school??
Did something change ?

Changed, and changed again, obviously! I didn't!

[LMC]

Possibly varies with the operator TT?

From Stevenage, it's West Anglia Great Northern, not the cheapest but not the worst either (that would be South Eastern or One, or whatever they call themselves now - dreadful service). I have an annual season ticket as I live well outside London - it's usable anywhere within zone 6 on the tube, buses, overland trains, trams and because it's an annual ticket, even discounts on the boats. Plus if a friend buys a tube ticket over the counter I can get a discount for them.

So although I could, in theory, get a cheaper annual "station to station" for my commute and an Oyster card for within London, it just does not pay me to do so - even with the limited amount of non-work related travel that I do.

It's a measure of how inflated London salaries are that it still pays me to commute into Zone 1 (or drive as far as I can and tube/bus the rest). But if transport costs go up much more I'm going to have to review. I'm not complaining about the actual *cost* - commuting is a lifestyle choice although jobs like mine are pretty thin on the ground. But I would love to know where the added value is and so far I'm not convinced.

[El Salsero Gringo]

What happens if you live out of London and need to travel on mainline trains? Oyster doesn't cover them.
What if you are just visiting London for the day? Why should you be penalised as there is no need for you having an Oyster card?I don't understand your problem. If you're visiting London for the day, you can either use your paper season ticket if it covers the Underground, or use Oyster or cash fares like everyone else if it doesn't.
I think Oyster cards are great, but until they can be used by everyone, they shouldn't be penalising people for not having one.The reason you're being penalised is because by unreasonably insisting on paying cash you're costing London Underground *more* than people who use Oyster cards, because they have to pay for extra staffing at ticket offices, and cash handling fees.

I'd prefer that you got an Oyster card (which are either free or very cheap) and helped the Underground put its money into more important things.

As for improvements to public transport: if there haven't been any improvements, why are there so many buses near where I live that they are constantly queuing in the road waiting for another bus (or four) to move off from the bus stop so that the traffic never gets anywhere and it's impossible to drive?

[TheTramp]

All of the above just reinforces my decision to have left London....

Instead of £450 a month for a room in a shared house, I now pay £210 a month for a one bedroomed flat of my own.

Instead of £100 a month to travel to work (with over an hours travel each way), I now pay nothing to walk to uni in 15 mins.

Instead of living 10 miles from the centre of the city, I now live 10 minutes walk.

Instead of having to queue for an hour to drive 10 miles, I can now drive to Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Stirling, and almost to Glasgow in said hour. The longest traffic jam I've been stuck in, in Dundee, is about 3 minutes.

Quality of life anyone....?? :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

big whinge Prepay is just about the best thing ever to hit the Underground. Loads of times I've tried to work out in the morning how many journeys I need to make and whether it was worth buying a travelcard or not - and ended up making the wrong decision. It vastly outnumbers the odd time I've had to use overground trains. I think it's an excellent system.

[TiggsTours]

Possibly varies with the operator TT?

From Stevenage, it's West Anglia Great Northern, not the cheapest but not the worst either (that would be South Eastern or One, or whatever they call themselves now - dreadful service). I have an annual season ticket as I live well outside London - it's usable anywhere within zone 6 on the tube, buses, overland trains, trams and because it's an annual ticket, even discounts on the boats. Plus if a friend buys a tube ticket over the counter I can get a discount for them.

So although I could, in theory, get a cheaper annual "station to station" for my commute and an Oyster card for within London, it just does not pay me to do so - even with the limited amount of non-work related travel that I do.

It's a measure of how inflated London salaries are that it still pays me to commute into Zone 1 (or drive as far as I can and tube/bus the rest). But if transport costs go up much more I'm going to have to review. I'm not complaining about the actual *cost* - commuting is a lifestyle choice although jobs like mine are pretty thin on the ground. But I would love to know where the added value is and so far I'm not convinced.
Not sure what you're asking me here.

In my line of work, I can command nearly £10k more by working in the city, I buy a zone 1-5 travel card, as its cheaper than getting pre-pay when you are just travelling stop to stop, not travelling around once you get there. Does that answer the question? Was there a question? I'm not sure why this comment was aimed at me.

[TiggsTours]

Prepay is just about the best thing ever to hit the Underground. Loads of times I've tried to work out in the morning how many journeys I need to make and whether it was worth buying a travelcard or not - and ended up making the wrong decision. It vastly outnumbers the odd time I've had to use overground trains. I think it's an excellent system.
Great! I'm really glad it works out best for you, I'm sure it works out best for alot of people, but it doesn't for me, and I'm sure I'm not alone. So, I either pay more because I don't travel around in the city on pre-pay, or I pay more because I get a zone 1-5 travel card

Pre-pay is great if you use the tube alot, but if, like me, you just travel in, then back out again, its more expensive, and I do all my travel on underground lines, so beware!

[El Salsero Gringo]

Pre-pay is great if you use the tube alot, but if, like me, you just travel in, then back out again, its more expensive.I'm being really dumb, but I still cant understand why it's more expensive for you. If you're a regular traveler, isn't a period travel card the best option anyway? Prepay is only designed for *occasional* users - so if that isn't you, it's not really surprising that it doesn't suit.

[drathzel]

All of the above just reinforces my decision to have left London....

Instead of £450 a month for a room in a shared house, I now pay £210 a month for a one bedroomed flat of my own.

Instead of £100 a month to travel to work (with over an hours travel each way), I now pay nothing to walk to uni in 15 mins.

Instead of living 10 miles from the centre of the city, I now live 10 minutes walk.

Instead of having to queue for an hour to drive 10 miles, I can now drive to Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Stirling, and almost to Glasgow in said hour. The longest traffic jam I've been stuck in, in Dundee, is about 3 minutes.

Quality of life anyone....?? :flower:
I have to agree with you, as many times as i have been in london over the last few months i realy dont like it. I mean the tubes are great and can get you almost anywhere, there are express trains to and from the airports, however it took Jake and i 1 hour and 30 mins to drive 3 miles. Taxis cost a fortune and bendy buses take up the road, block junctions and make a nuisance for half a dozen people on board.

Make all transport cheap, regular and taller (ie double deckers instead of a attaching two busses together) and there wouldn't be so much hassle.

Altho saying this it is £6 return to belfast from bangor on the train which is only 10 miles and i think this is extortionate!:mad:

[LMC]

Not sure what you're asking me here.
You asked about value of season tickets :)

Interesting article in the Guardian today (source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1677393,00.html))


Are train fares too high?

Patrick Barkham
Wednesday January 4, 2006
The Guardian


If you are reading this on a train, cheer up. Forget those inflation-busting 8.8% rises on some routes, it is unlikely you have paid more than the real cost of your train journey. Unless, that is, you are either a pay-the-walk-on-fare-to-Birmingham-New-Street-and-to-hell-with-my-foreign-holiday impulsive type, or have squeezed on to a busy, profitable commuter line, such as the Thameslink between Luton, London and Brighton.

Railways are inherently expensive, and most routes are, in effect, supported by the government. While passengers moan, trains are more reliable. Punctuality has almost returned to pre-2000 levels. And train companies have proved adept at running our creaking railways more efficiently. They now carry more people than in 1959, when the network was 40% bigger.
Fair comments all, except that it is not clear whether the last sentence is talking about "real terms" - taking into account population growth, particularly in the South East.


There ends the good news. Passengers are not getting a good deal, says rail analyst Christian Wolmar. Prices are not rising because operators are buying fancy new trains but because the government is seeking to claw back more of its subsidy. Companies who win the bidding race to run lines are those that promise to return more money to the government. National Express's One franchise, which took over services in East Anglia last year, will pay £500m over 10 years to the Strategic Rail Authority out of ticket revenues.
My emphasis. As I said earlier, so much for the Government actively encouraging people to use public transport.


Ticket prices, analysts warn, will get higher still. Fares were falling in real terms until the privatisation fares cap (the retail price index minus 1%) was scrapped in 2003. Some fares - saver tickets and season tickets - remain capped at RPI plus 1%; the rest are at the mercy of the rail companies. Price increases are also being used to manage demand on overcrowded trains and put people off peak-time travel. It means, says Wolmar, more road congestion.
Perhaps this will encourage employers to allow more flexible working? - there is no real reason I have to be in the office every day except that my boss likes me to be there. But more road congestion is bad news :(


Passengers will also continue to pay more as long as the government thinks rail users are the only beneficiaries of the train, says Stephen Johnson of Transport2000. Other European governments recognise the broader economic benefits of rail travel - relieving congestion, regenerating rural areas - as well as trains being safer and greener than cars. In Germany, France and even some American cities, citizens pay more towards their railways through their taxes. Their tickets, surprisingly enough, are cheaper.
"No comment"

[Little Monkey]

Quality of life anyone....?? :flower:

I must say I agree..... (and slightly off topic :blush: )

I have at time thought how good it would be to live in London, with all the different dance nights, classes and parties etc. But as you said, in Dundee we can get to any class or party night in Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Perth, Stirling or Glasgow in about 1 hour. And far less frustrating than being stuck in the horrendous traffic in London for an hour or more, just to travel 10-20 miles!! At my last visit to London, I was horrified to find that a journey that would take less than 30 minutes up here, took over 1 1/2 hours!!!!:eek:

On previous trips to London, I've found it almost quicker to walk than to catch the bus at certain times of the day. And using the tube during rush hours........ :sick:

Ok, London also has lots to offer when it comes to entertainment (clubs, theatres, cinemas etc), shopping, restaurants etc etc etc. But put together everything the above mentioned cities have to offer, and I think we've got rather a lot to choose from up here too! And much cheaper, too!

We don't have Jango, though..... :( Or Funky Lush! :tears:
But we do have DD's new 'Red Hot and Blue' monthly party!! :clap:

In Dundee you can also get to several gorgeous beaches by driving 10-15 minutes. 20-30 minutes drive and you'll find charming, quaint little fishing villages. 45 minutes drive, and you're in the mountains.

An all-day travel card in Dundee costs £2.30. A 'Megabus' return ticket to Edinburgh (or Glasgow, or....) costs about £2.50.

Oh, and my very clever and much better half got me an Oyster card for my frequent visits to London, so I should be sorted..... :D

[drathzel]

Oh, and my very clever and much better half got me an Oyster card for my frequent visits to London, so I should be sorted..... :D

Ah good idea!!!!!!!:innocent: :D

*note to self, send out Lone wolf for oyster card* :rofl:

[TiggsTours]

I'm being really dumb, but I still cant understand why it's more expensive for you. If you're a regular traveler, isn't a period travel card the best option anyway? Prepay is only designed for *occasional* users - so if that isn't you, it's not really surprising that it doesn't suit.
I travel from zone 5 to zone 1 and back again 5 days a week, and don't do any other travel at all during the day. When I used to pay pre-pay (because I was told it was cheaper) I used to top up £50 at a time, I used to top up 3 times a month, every month, a total of £150. Now I get a zone 1-5 travel card put onto my oyster card, at a cost of £139.40 a month, saving me £10.60, a total of £127.20 each year. If I got an annual travel card, I could save myself even more!

Now tell me pre-pay is cheaper, believe me, for some people, it isn't!

[TiggsTours]

You asked about value of season tickets :)

No I didn't, that's why I've been stressing to ESG the value of them, that's what I use.

I was asking why someone who has a season ticket, as it is the best option for them over oyster, should now be penalised and made to pay more, just because they don't use oyster, which is not of such good use to them.

[TiggsTours]

I must say I agree..... (and slightly off topic :blush: )

I have at time thought ..... :D
I moved to London 6 years ago for a number of reasons, and now find myself somewhat stuck here.

I come from Brighton originally, that's where all my family are, and I don't want to move any further away from them. I came here for the social life, the dancing is far better (on the rare occassion I go dancing down Brighton way now, for my dad's sake, I feel pretty suicidal at the thought of going back!) there is always something to do. Now, nearly all my friends are up here, my work is here. I wouldn't want to move somewhere where I didn't know anyone at all, I'd have to start all over again, on my own, so the only option would be to move back to Brighton. I've already mentioned the dancing, but there's also the fact that the salaries are ridiculously low compared to the cost of living! A flat in Brighton would cost me almost the same as in London, and I've got a great deal where I live, so would actually cost me more, and I'd be looking at a realistic paycut of about £15k a year!

I think I'll stick where I am for now, quality of life is far better!

[Little Monkey]

I think I'll stick where I am for now, quality of life is far better!

I suppose if it's quality of life that matters, I really should just pack up and move back to Norway....... High salaries, very high standard of living and quality of life, and it's voted the best country to live in (particularly if you're female!) many years in a row.

However, after 9 years in Scotland, I now feel at home here. Most of my friends are here, and if I moved back to Norway, I'd have to start from scratch with everything: My business (ceramic artist), my social life and dancing, make new friends....................

Getting more and more friends in London, though..........

Nononono, Scotland much better, Oyster card or no Oyster card.

Here's good for now.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I travel from zone 5 to zone 1 and back again 5 days a week, and don't do any other travel at all during the day. When I used to pay pre-pay (because I was told it was cheaper) I used to top up £50 at a time, I used to top up 3 times a month, every month, a total of £150. Now I get a zone 1-5 travel card put onto my oyster card, at a cost of £139.40 a month, saving me £10.60, a total of £127.20 each year. If I got an annual travel card, I could save myself even more!

Now tell me pre-pay is cheaper, believe me, for some people, it isn't!Nobody ever said it was the cheapest of all options, if you make regular journeys. Of course it isn't cheaper than a season ticket. It is cheaper than bunging cash in a machine for each journey. Really, I think you were just looking for something to moan about.

[El Salsero Gringo]

No I didn't, that's why I've been stressing to ESG the value of them, that's what I use.

I was asking why someone who has a season ticket, as it is the best option for them over oyster, should now be penalised and made to pay more, just because they don't use oyster, which is not of such good use to them.It obviously is of good use to them since it makes their journeys cheaper. D'oh.

[TiggsTours]

Nobody ever said it was the cheapest of all options, if you make regular journeys. Of course it isn't cheaper than a season ticket. It is cheaper than bunging cash in a machine for each journey. Really, I think you were just looking for something to moan about.
I'd call being told to buy pre-pay by all the London Underground info leaflets, website, and staff, as it would be cheaper, only to work out for myself after 3 months that it isn't, something to moan about, wouldn't you?

Anyway, I wasn't moaning, you were saying that pre-pay is the best thing that ever happened, I was just explaining to you that it isn't for everybody, that's all.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'd call being told to buy pre-pay by all the London Underground info leaflets, website, and staff, as it would be cheaper, only to work out for myself after 3 months that it isn't, something to moan about, wouldn't you?I wouldn't be complaining, I'd be wondering why it had taken me so long to realise!

[TiggsTours]

I wouldn't be complaining, I'd be wondering why it had taken me so long to realise!
You just want to pick a fight, don't you? Come on then, I'm ready for you, call yourself a man!:wink:

[LMC]

OK, I'm officially confused...

I think what TT is trying to say is:

Oyster prepay is most expensive and aimed at occasional users

Oyster season tickets are cheaper

The tube element of an annual season ticket for an overland train is more expensive than the Oyster equivalent. As it 'appens, that p****d me off when I found out - because there is no 'cash handling' excuse, I put my card through the machine. And I don't have the Oyster option. Then I discovered that the Oyster season ticket holders don't get the extras - like me being able to use all overland trains within zone 6 as well as London Transport. Which is why I said to TT that benefits of season tickets depend on the operator 'cos I got confused about the question.

[TiggsTours]

OK, I'm officially confused...

I think what TT is trying to say is:

Oyster prepay is most expensive and aimed at occasional users

Oyster season tickets are cheaper

The tube element of an annual season ticket for an overland train is more expensive than the Oyster equivalent. As it 'appens, that p****d me off when I found out - because there is no 'cash handling' excuse, I put my card through the machine. And I don't have the Oyster option. Then I discovered that the Oyster season ticket holders don't get the extras - like me being able to use all overland trains within zone 6 as well as London Transport. Which is why I said to TT that benefits of season tickets depend on the operator 'cos I got confused about the question.
Its only Oyster pre-pay you can't use on overland, if you have a season ticket on oyster, you can use it on overland trains.

What I'm annoyed about is that season tickets on oyster have gone up too, but they are saying that no oyster user is being affected by the price increases yet, not true, its only pre-pay.

[LMC]

I stand corrected, thank you. In that case, the station to station option for WAGN plus Oyster for underground might be cheaper for me when I renew, even with the Oyster season ticket raise.

Luckily I don't have to get my calculator out until August.

[David Bailey]

The reason you're being penalised is because by unreasonably insisting on paying cash you're costing London Underground *more* than people who use Oyster cards, because they have to pay for extra staffing at ticket offices, and cash handling fees.
Any commercial organisation (and yes, I think Tesco's is a great example) "unreasonably insisting" on charging more for people paying cash would quickly lose business. LU can only do this because they're a monopoly and can enforce their will on an unwilling public, to a degree.

Cash transaction handling is costly, but then so is transaction handling on any funds - merchants have to pay surcharges on card transactions, for example, for the privilege of using networks such as Visa. Card-reading and processing equipment has to be installed and maintained. People have to be on hand as and when they go wrong, or to deal with emergencies.

Whereas to process cash, you just need a cashier and a till...


I'd prefer that you got an Oyster card (which are either free or very cheap) and helped the Underground put its money into more important things.


I don't have any figures on relative costs (there's a challenge), but it's not immediately clear to me that Oyster cards are inherently done to provide better value to the consumers. My feeling is that they're done to provide immediate financial benefits to LU by hiking up prices and reducing inconvenient costs such as customer refunds.

It's like the introduction of chip and PIN - IMO, that was done solely for the benefit of the networks and the card issuers, not for the benefit of the consumer.


As for improvements to public transport: if there haven't been any improvements, why are there so many buses near where I live that they are constantly queuing in the road waiting for another bus (or four) to move off from the bus stop so that the traffic never gets anywhere and it's impossible to drive?
I think bus travel has definitely improved - but the discussion was about the Tube, which I don't believe has.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Any commercial organisation (and yes, I think Tesco's is a great example) "unreasonably insisting" on charging more for people paying cash would quickly lose business. LU can only do this because they're a monopoly and can enforce their will on an unwilling public, to a degree.True. But what's your point?
Cash transaction handling is costly, but then so is transaction handling on any funds - merchants have to pay surcharges on card transactions, for example, for the privilege of using networks such as Visa. Card-reading and processing equipment has to be installed and maintained.Still *much* cheaper than cash handling - less cash around, less fraud, theft, lower insurance, no cash collection fees, staff on platforms not in ticket offices etc etc...
Whereas to process cash, you just need a cashier and a till...No, that's just the bit you see. By the time you've followed it all the way to the bank - and it's mainly coin so it's heavy and difficult to transport - there are a lot more people involved.
I don't have any figures on relative costs (there's a challenge), but it's not immediately clear to me that Oyster cards are inherently done to provide better value to the consumers. My feeling is that they're done to provide immediate financial benefits to LU by hiking up prices and reducing inconvenient costs such as customer refunds.They aren't mutually exclusive. Oyster also gives LU abilities to work out who goes where, who uses which buses etc - that's valuable information, and there's a privacy argument too.

But it's much easier to get a refund on an Oyster card - you don't have to send forms in, a ticket office can check what you've paid, and when, and if was incorrect they can refund value to your card instantly - and they do, I've tried it. Whereas if you need a refund on a paper ticket you have to send it off, and it takes 28 days for a piddly cheque for 70p to turn up, that costs you and LU more to bank than it's face value.

As for price rises - well, they're going up anyway, Oyster cards or no. I don't see that it makes any difference, except that Oyster fares are, as a concession, cheaper.
It's like the introduction of chip and PIN - IMO, that was done solely for the benefit of the networks and the card issuers, not for the benefit of the consumer.Again, not mutually exclusive. They're faster at the shop till as well as more secure. Having a card stolen and signature forged is a real pain in the butt - that's happened to me. It's not possible with chip-and-pin.

[David Bailey]

True. But what's your point?
Hell, I need a point now as well? Errr, I think my point was that LU are Evil Monopolists, something like that... :blush:


Still *much* cheaper than cash handling - less cash around, less fraud, theft, lower insurance, no cash collection fees, staff on platforms not in ticket offices etc etc...
Possibly, but I don't know - do you have any figures for the difference, or is that just an opinion? I know, I'm an awkward so-and-so...


No, that's just the bit you see. By the time you've followed it all the way to the bank - and it's mainly coin so it's heavy and difficult to transport - there are a lot more people involved.
But then again, it's a failry tried-and-trusted system, people have been dealing with cash for a while now, so it's very easy to predict and maintain cost overheads.

I've no idea what the cash transaction-processing overheads are, compared to the overheads of new technology development, implementation, and maintenance. Again, I'd need to see figures...

Re: Chip and PIN:

.Again, not mutually exclusive. They're faster at the shop till as well as more secure. Having a card stolen and signature forged is a real pain in the butt - that's happened to me. It's not possible with chip-and-pin.
I believer the main reason for implementation of chip and PIN was to enable card issuers to force merchants to assume more risk, by forcing them to verify transactions on PIN - so the liability default is on the merchant not the card issuer in case of fraud.

I'm also not convinced that PIN verification is faster than signature verification - maybe, but I somehow doubt that Barclaycard have customer usability and convenience as their prime commercial motivation. I'm just a cynical old cynic really...

[El Salsero Gringo]

But then again, it's a failry tried-and-trusted system, people have been dealing with cash for a while now, so it's very easy to predict and maintain cost overheads.

I've no idea what the cash transaction-processing overheads are, compared to the overheads of new technology development, implementation, and maintenance. Again, I'd need to see figures...Well, look at it like this: if it *wasn't* much cheaper, there wouldn't be any incentive to introduce it, would there? The proof of the pudding is very much in the fact that LU are *so* keen to get people *not* to use cash, they'll bribe them with cheaper fares.
Re: Chip and PIN:

I believer the main reason for implementation of chip and PIN was to enable card issuers to force merchants to assume more risk, by forcing them to verify transactions on PIN - so the liability default is on the merchant not the card issuer in case of fraud.

I'm also not convinced that PIN verification is faster than signature verification - maybe, but I somehow doubt that Barclaycard have customer usability and convenience as their prime commercial motivation. I'm just a cynical old cynic really...Speaking as a former shopkeeper (who had a few forged signatures presented) - it's a pain in the arse all round. It doesn't really matter who carries the can for the fraud, if the fraud never happens. No signatures accepted means no signature fraud. I just don't see why you're so determined to read evil into things: sometimes a change can simply be better all round. Chip-and-pin is a vast improvement. Which ever way you want to look at it.

Oh yes, and, again, speaking as a former shopkeeper - it's much faster. You'll just have to trust me.

[TheTramp]

Well, look at it like this: if it *wasn't* much cheaper, there wouldn't be any incentive to introduce it, would there?

That's not necessarily true. There would be other factors, such as ease to process, preventing fraud etc. Which you've mentioned as well already.

Which isn't to say that I know, one way or the other (or care really!), just that cost isn't always the determining factor.

Oh, and I'm with DJ. I don't think that chip and pin has speeded things up at the checkout. It seemed much faster to me, when I was just presented with a slip of paper, upon which I scrawled my signature, for the clerk to check (or not).

[El Salsero Gringo]

Oh, and I'm with DJ. I don't think that chip and pin has speeded things up at the checkout. It seemed much faster to me, when I was just presented with a slip of paper, upon which I scrawled my signature, for the clerk to check (or not).Yes, that's the point, isn't it? In order not to hold things up, signatures don't get checked. Fraudsters know that, and whenever I checked back on the times I'd been taken in by a forged signature it was *always* on a day and at a time when I don't remember the forger but I do remember the queue of 40 people waiting to pay, and trying not to hold things up.

I'm sorry, but if you still think it's quicker to properly check a signature than to type in a 4-digit code, you're just wrong.

[frodo]

That's not necessarily true. There would be other factors, such as ease to process, preventing fraud etc. Which you've mentioned as well already.

Which isn't to say that I know, one way or the other (or care really!), just that cost isn't always the determining factor.

Oh, and I'm with DJ. I don't think that chip and pin has speeded things up at the checkout. It seemed much faster to me, when I was just presented with a slip of paper, upon which I scrawled my signature, for the clerk to check (or not).
Sometimes the other factor is investment, for a future return, offering immediate cheapness in order to obtain that return.

Once Oyster is universal charging doesn't have to be by concentric zone, or a single time cut off.

And that offers lots of opportunities for a political mayor.



On chip and pin things may be slower than it will end up, in the transition period, though at the moment it still surprises me how quick it is.

[TheTramp]

Yes, that's the point, isn't it? In order not to hold things up, signatures don't get checked. Fraudsters know that, and whenever I checked back on the times I'd been taken in by a forged signature it was *always* on a day and at a time when I don't remember the forger but I do remember the queue of 40 people waiting to pay, and trying not to hold things up.

I'm sorry, but if you still think it's quicker to properly check a signature than to type in a 4-digit code, you're just wrong.

Ah. But that's a fraud issue then, isn't it. How many times does your signature get properly checked. Which takes me back to my original point. When I'm at the checkout at Tesco, it takes me longer, waiting to type in my PIN number, than it did, when I scrawled my signature.

Interestingly (or maybe not!), I went to Tesco the other night, and used the 'self-scan' to do my own checking out. When it came to pay, I just had to swipe my card down a strip on the side, which checked neither my signature, or my PIN number.

[Robin]

Oh, and I'm with DJ. I don't think that chip and pin has speeded things up at the checkout. It seemed much faster to me, when I was just presented with a slip of paper, upon which I scrawled my signature, for the clerk to check (or not).


and to remain with those heady days of signatured transactions, you can sign up for an AMEX card, as the Americans have different fraud laws - kak Federal Offence thing and therefore are less inclined to introduce chip and pain ... i mean pin

[David Bailey]

Speaking as a former shopkeeper .
Good God, is there anything you haven't done?

[El Salsero Gringo]

When I'm at the checkout at Tesco, it takes me longer, waiting to type in my PIN number, than it did, when I scrawled my signature.That being the case, it's convincing evidence for the need for a chip-and-pin system that takes responsibility away from the checkout operator (who can't have been doing their job even half properly if they were accepting your signature in less time than it takes you to type in a pin)! I like the fact that there's no handing over of cards too. I slot it in the reader, type my, pin, and take it back when done.

I agree that, in a world where I don't give a stuff about who pays for the fraud as long as it isn't *me*, it's great to moan about how banks have introduced new systems for their own conspiratorial reasons which can only be a bad thing for the man in the street. But I don't live in that world. When I had £5600 stolen via my switch card (because a succession of supermarket checkout operators were too bored - or worried about being faster than chip-and-pin - to spot the entirely different signature the fraudster was using), NatWest were kind enough to repay me the money, and take the hit themselves. But in the long run whose money do you think goes to the thieves? Where does that money come from? You and me. I think it's a terribly poor argument against reducing crime simply to say, cynically, it's just being done for the sake of profits.

Likewise Oyster - if there wasn't a business case for it, it wouldn't be introduced. However you swing it, LU obviously decided that it would save them money in the long run when the costs of financing the capital expenditure are included (I mean, can you imagine the faces at the Board meeting where some wise-ass makes a presentation about this wonderful new ticketing system that's actually going to cost 30% more than the way they do it at present?)

Oyster's a terrific system. It works, smoothly and quickly. It's reliable. It was introduced in (as far as I can tell) a textbook example of how to roll out a big IT project. It's reduced my travel costs (and that of a large percentage of people - all the ones who buy the right kind of tickets, and read the posters announcing months ahead of changes to the ticketing rules) and I think LU should be applauded for it.

[LordOfTheFiles]

Where does that money come from? You and me. I think it's a terribly poor argument against reducing crime simply to say, cynically, it's just being done for the sake of profits.

It is all profit driven. That's the way big business (or indeed any business wishing to stay afloat) operates. Basically credit card fraud was starting to cost the banks more money than it would cost to introduce chip and pin. As soon as the break even point was reached it was common sense to pay for the roll out of this "new technology" (which has been in France for about 200 years) in order to save money on paying out after fraud. Simple as that. It isn't a conspiracy at all. In fact if anything, the big worry was that they didn't do it earlier because it wasn't cost effective.


Oyster's a terrific system. It works, smoothly and quickly. It's reliable. It was introduced in (as far as I can tell) a textbook example of how to roll out a big IT project. It's reduced my travel costs (and that of a large percentage of people - all the ones who buy the right kind of tickets, and read the posters announcing months ahead of changes to the ticketing rules) and I think LU should be applauded for it.

Well that it comes to this, that I should have to defend some form of public transport, but I fully agree. The new system works superbly. I can pay onto my switch card in a matter of moments instead of trying to feed a ruined fiver into the ticket machine, then giving it up as a bad job and going to the ticket office and my fair is les than that of a paper ticket. Yes the having to pay for a separate train fare outside of the underground is annoying, and is worth questioning, but on the whole the process has been pretty much top notch.

[Little Monkey]

Oyster also gives LU abilities to work out who goes where, who uses which buses etc - that's valuable information, and there's a privacy argument too.

Not neccesarily. I know this is something a lot of people don't like about the Oyster cards; Big Brother being able to keep track of where and when you're travelling.... But I have an Oyster card, and it's not registered in anyone's name, so nobody can possibly know who I am when I use it. I don't know if this is different when you've got a season ticket on your Oyster, but for pre-pay you don't need to register anywhere.

[LordOfTheFiles]

Not neccesarily. I know this is something a lot of people don't like about the Oyster cards; Big Brother being able to keep track of where and when you're travelling....

Big Brother doesn't give a damn about where you personally are travelling, that is simply some mad ego trip for people that need to feel as though their life is interesting enough to scrutinize. But surely having data about where the underground population travel to and at what times can only help the operation of the service, which is good news for all of us. Or maybe I just know I am too boring for people to care about my transport habits...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Yes the having to pay for a separate train fare outside of the underground is annoying, and is worth questioning...It's also untrue. I went to Battersea yesterday, from Kentish Town. Battersea is one stop from Victoria, on the overground train system, so no pay-as-you go. So I bought a paper one day travelcard at the start of my journey (just as I would have done if Oyster had never been introduced). That cost £4.90, and included the overground portion of my journey. So the premium for using the overland system for the day was just 50p. Ticket prices are high - but Oyster is still excellent.

[Rhythm King]

I am in favour of the Oyster card system and it has been improved since its introduction. An example of this is the fare-capping for pre-pay cards, to match the price of travel cards. I find it quick and easy to use.

If you are concerned about your travel patterns being identified, you can always use an unregistered pre-pay card. Of course if you pay for it with a debit or credit card, then it's linked to you anyway and also if you lose it, then you can't get a refund on the remaining value of the card. If you're a law-abiding citizen, what is it you're up to that you're feeling so guilty about doing anyway? :devil: It doesn't make any difference of course, because every London station, mainline, tube, or DLR is completely covered by CCTV, as are most buses, nowadays.

With regard to chip and pin cards. If you hand over your card, you lose control of it and have no idea how many times it has been swiped, or what for. It is relatively easy for a dishonest person to then copy your signature from the bill you sign and which is kept by the merchant. This can't be done if: a: you put your own card in the reader and b: you retain knowledge of your pin. If you have so many cards you can't remember the separate pins, you could always change them to the same one, although this is obviously much less secure.

There have been numerous cases of multiple swipes being made on cards. The banks don't like to advertise this because it's bad publicity. A recent one involved a chain of petrol stations in North London, where the staff wore card readers under their uniform jackets and the proper card reader was on a shelf behind the counter. The staff had to take the card and turn away from the client to make the legal transaction, giving them the opportunity to make the illegal swipe in a matter of seconds. The stolen amount was for a fixed amount of under a tenner, so people rarely noticed on their balances. This wouldn't happen if people used chip and pin and checked their statements properly.

[Lynn]

Its a bigger city thing - I've heard of people saying it has taken them 2 hours to travel a 7 mile journey in Dublin. Belfast isn't as bad but in rush hour it can still take me over an hour to go about 10 miles across town (and I can add 30 mins on to that for the next 3 years apparently due to work being done on the Westlink :tears: ).

But I have to say I was actually impressed by the public transport network you have in London - you can actually get places without a car. That's not very easy here in Belfast. I live 20 mins drive from my work if I avoid peak times (when its then 45 mins) - I travelled by bus for years before I had a car - it was two bus journeys each way, costing a total of about £5 return if used prepay tickets and travelled off peak, and took about 1 hour and 10 mins. (And both my home and work are on main bus routes.)

[Icey]

...The stolen amount was for a fixed amount of under a tenner, so people rarely noticed on their balances. This wouldn't happen if people used chip and pin and checked their statements properly.

I check my bank account online every day. If there is a transaction that I don't recognise I'll call up my bank and find out what it is. So far, I've been lucky, I've not had any fraudulent transactions made to my account.

But then again, I've got no money in the account so any transaction is likely to be rejected anyway :rolleyes:

[Robin]

It's also untrue. I went to Battersea yesterday, from Kentish Town. Battersea is one stop from Victoria, on the overground train system, so no pay-as-you go. So I bought a paper one day travelcard at the start of my journey (just as I would have done if Oyster had never been introduced). That cost £4.90, and included the overground portion of my journey. So the premium for using the overland system for the day was just 50p. Ticket prices are high - but Oyster is still excellent.

Fair enough but if like myself, your work takes you to a multitude of clients each day, I may start on my Oyster on the assumption that I'm not going to a non Oyster station - which I then have to make a stop at which means I end up paying either £9.10 or £11.70, whereas with a paper ticket I would have been bought a one-day travelcard that would be valid at those stations for either £5.50 or £8.00 (for those unfamiliar with LU pricing a Peak time travel card cost £2.50 (?) more - but thats probably changed now!)

Nobody has yet mentioned though, that the whole point of prepay is that LU has your money up-front for an indeterminate period ie. I now put between £30-£50 on my Oyster at one time to make it more usable so LU has that money up front - think of all the tenners they get and the interest accruing!!!

Maybe they should treat it as a sort of bank account and pay us interest ?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Fair enough but if like myself, your work takes you to a multitude of clients each day, I may start on my Oyster on the assumption that I'm not going to a non Oyster station - which I then have to make a stop at which means I end up paying either £9.10 or £11.70, whereas with a paper ticket I would have been bought a one-day travelcard that would be valid at those stations for either £5.50 or £8.00 (for those unfamiliar with LU pricing a Peak time travel card cost £2.50 (?) more - but thats probably changed now!)You still have the option of buying the paper ticket whatever, just in case. The choice you have now is the same as you had before Oyster, when you had to decide whether to buy a Travelcard or not anyway.


Nobody has yet mentioned though, that the whole point of prepay is that LU has your money up-front for an indeterminate period ie. I now put between £30-£50 on my Oyster at one time to make it more usable so LU has that money up front - think of all the tenners they get and the interest accruing!!!

Maybe they should treat it as a sort of bank account and pay us interest ?That's true, but it's up to you how much credit to load it with. I'll forgo the interest on the £1.25 that is the average balance on my card.