Jango - how's it work then?

[David Bailey]

Despite my best entreaties, no-one seemed to want to discuss Jango in the "Argentinian Tango input into MJ? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6767)" thread ( :tears: ), so I thought I'd create a separate thread.

I've been doing a few Argentinian Tango lessons over the last few months, and I've definitely found it's made a difference to my MJ - for example, in a pause or a slow section, I usually try to do something which I hope looks tango-y, rather than a simple pause / dip / wiggle or whatever.

So, can someone who's done the classes tell me, what exactly is the theory behind the fusion of the two styles, and can people give any similar ideas as to how this has helped / changed their MJ style?

Also, I'm thinking of ordering the Jango DVD (http://www.fusiondance.freeservers.com/website2.html) to help me with ideas about moving this along, and I wondered has anyone seen this, and did it help them?

Or should I just carry on with AT and work out my own style for fusion?

Oh, and please don't say "Come to Jango classes" then, as there's no way I'm schlepping all the way back across from North to West London, an hour after I've schlepped from West to North London after work.

[Katie]

I have attended a few Jango classes and a few Argentine tango classes. Jango is pitched quite high, ie, the teachers assume you have some dance background from Jive, and thus incorporate an AT move into a MJ move, for example ocho's or leg flicks prepped from a first move. Whereas, the AT classes assume you have no prior knowledge or experience (obviously :rolleyes:) and teach it as 'pure'. I prefer the Jango classes because i'm able to learn the 'attractive' or signature moves straight away, unlike the AT classes where I have to be more patient at being a beginner again, although I hope to persevere and learn the fundamentals of AT.

Hope that helps, however, somebody else may be able to give a better description as I haven't attended classes for a while.

I would also recommend the DVD, it's very well produced, and there are some hilarious scenes by Amir, especially the banana one!

[ChrisA]

Oh, and please don't say "Come to Jango classes" then, as there's no way I'm schlepping all the way back across from North to West London, an hour after I've schlepped from West to North London after work.
Why don't you put a fresh top and a toothbrush in your briefcase, and stay in West London for the duration??

Work a bit late, scrub up a bit... then party on down....

What IS the problem? Some of us schlepp from West to North and back once in a while...

Anyone would think you had a reason for not actually trying Jango out :whistle:

[Mary]

With Amir's 'fusion' he has worked out what he calls' 'gateway' moves where you can seamlessly incorporate the crossover from a MJ move and meld it onto some Tango stuff.

I would say the Jango DVD is worth getting even if you don't go to Amir or Kate's classes as it is quite a comprehensive workshop in itself and covers a fair bit of detail very clearly and in an accessible manner. And some useful excercises to do (if I remember rightly).

There's also a couple of performance routines which are pretty cool to watch.

Hope this is useful info.

btw I could be working just about anywhere but I take my bag of stuff and get washed and changed when I get there as I rarely have time to go home and get changed and get to Hammersmith. I make the effort because I find Mondays at Kent House a good way to chill out. But don't let me persuade you.:devil: I'm sure you'd hate it.:wink:

M

[David Bailey]

What IS the problem? Some of us schlepp from West to North and back once in a while..
There's always one... :rolleyes: Some of us have commitments, OK? And that's all I'm going to say about my private life.

Any chance of answering any of the questions, or are we descending to abuse already?

[David Bailey]

With Amir's 'fusion' he has worked out what he calls' 'gateway' moves where you can seamlessly incorporate the crossover from a MJ move and meld it onto some Tango stuff.
Interesting. So would you say that it's more at a move level than a "style" level from your point-of-view? E.g. it's "Here's how you can lead an ocho from a first move", rather than "Here's how to stand and walk"?

Basically, what I want to know is, would I be confused by trying to learn Jango style, or is it a short cut? In other words, does it help or hinder learning Argentinian Tango?


I would also recommend the DVD, it's very well produced, and there are some hilarious scenes by Amir, especially the banana one!
Thanks - I think I'll give it a go :)


I make the effort because I find Mondays at Kent House a good way to chill out. But don't let me persuade you.:devil: I'm sure you'd hate it.:wink:
I have strong opinions about certain aspects of the scene there, it's true, mainly developed through reading certain threads. But we're not in the "Social Events" section, we're in the "let's talk about dance" section, so I'd like to, you know, talk about dance. Call me crazy on that one...

[Feelingpink]

..I have strong opinions about certain aspects of the scene there, it's true, mainly developed through reading certain threads. But we're not in the "Social Events" section, we're in the "let's talk about dance" section, so I'd like to, you know, talk about dance. Call me crazy on that one...


...Oh, and please don't say "Come to Jango classes" then, as there's no way I'm schlepping all the way back across from North to West London, an hour after I've schlepped from West to North London after work.OK, I wouldn't expect you to go to Jango. Just because some of us go to West London from East London ... well, never mind.

My take on Jango is that it isn't just a "pure" partnering of Tango and MJ on its own. Katie is right in that Kate & Will's lessons expect prior knowledge of MJ and there are tango or tango style moves incorporated. But the lesson isn't the entire evening: the rest of the night is comprised of freestyle with a group of dancers who like to be creative with their lead and follow using (TWK's) eclectic music. Generally, if you have an open mind (in a dance sense), it's your home. It's why if people say someone dances in a "Jango" style, I don't always expect to see MJ/AT fusion - it's more an eclectic, playful attitude or style that has grown at Jango nights/T-Jives.

If you find that you have "strong opinions" about the Jango "scene" despite never having been, then you deserve my compassion. :flower:

[ChrisA]

Any chance of answering any of the questions, or are we descending to abuse already?
Erm, I don't see any abuse on this thread. Is there a need for this?

I like Jango mostly for the freestyle. It's one of the few venues where I like the music. Fortunately for me, quite a lot of my favourite dancers seem to like the music there too, so I get to dance with them, which is cool.

With regard to:

So, can someone who's done the classes tell me, what exactly is the theory behind the fusion of the two styles, and can people give any similar ideas as to how this has helped / changed their MJ style?
I've done some of the classes. They're a bit of a mixture. The straight MJ moves are pretty accessible, easy even, if you've been around for a while, and the ones with the Tango techniques woven in are difficult if you're not used to that sort of thing, which I'm not.

I would say that the fusion as taught in Will and Kate's classes is much more about being able to use an exit from a normal MJ move as the entry to a more Tango-y move, and vice versa, than about a Tango style added to otherwise normal MJ moves.

So it might be a normal MJ move to start with, followed by a lead into some ochos for instance (they also teach much more difficult things than ochos sometimes, but I don't know what any of them are called), finishing with a first move exit and then continuing into another normal MJ move.

[David Bailey]

OK, I wouldn't expect you to go to Jango. Just because some of us go to West London from East London ... well, never mind.
Do you do the classes then? 'Coz it doesn't sound like many people actually, you know, learn this stuff at the moment...


If you find that you have "strong opinions" about the Jango "scene" despite never having been, then you deserve my compassion. :flower:
It's amazing how I manage to somehow still survive really isn't it? And amazing that I don't feel an overwhelming urge to dash over there, despite the warm and welcoming comments from people... OK, OK, I'm very much trying to keep talking about dancing here - I understood that was something we haven't been doing enough of recently on this forum. Perhaps bitching is easier.

But, to clarify, I believe JonD :worthy: gave the definitive definition of "how AT can help MJ" in this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=164840), where he talked about the benefits in terms of connection, lead/follow, presentation, leading by intention, balance / weight distribution, quality of movement and musicality. I've bookmarked that post, it's my bible at the moment.

(I also note zero contributions to that thread by any Jango-ite, which is why I started this one)

But, once again, what I want to know is if people think that it'll be useful for my dance development, given the context I've outlined (long-term MJ-er and salsa-er, beginner AT-er), to try Jango, or to keep at straight AT, or to try both?

What I really really really don't want to know is people's opinions about where and when I should dance. Which is why I put that caveat in my first post, much good it did me.

[David Bailey]

Information! Halle-frickin-lujah!


I would say that the fusion as taught in Will and Kate's classes is much more about being able to use an exit from a normal MJ move as the entry to a more Tango-y move, and vice versa, than about a Tango style added to otherwise normal MJ moves.

So it might be a normal MJ move to start with, followed by a lead into some ochos for instance (they also teach much more difficult things than ochos sometimes, but I don't know what any of them are called), finishing with a first move exit and then continuing into another normal MJ move.
That's kind of what I figured - it's move fusion rather than style fusion. OK, I think I'll stick with AT for the moment, I'll try to get a bit more of a solid background in that, then I'll see. I still think I'll order the DVD though, hopefully I can pick stuff up from that. A compromise, in other words. :)

[ChrisA]

What I really really really don't want to know is people's opinions about where and when I should dance.
I think you'll find not many people have an opinion about where you should dance.

It's the hint of "don't confuse me with actual facts, my mind is made up" that comes across whenever you insist that you won't actually go there, and risk basing these "strong opinions" you say you have on actual experience.

But as far as your question is concerned, I don't think it's really possible to answer it without more information.

When you say


what I want to know is if people think that it'll be useful for my dance development, I think it depends on a lot of things.

It depends for instance on how good your current tango venue is. If the teaching there is very good, I'd be inclined to learn tango technique there, properly and in a concentrated way. It would certainly make the tango moves that Will and Kate teach a lot easier, simply from the extra exposure as well as anything else. If it isn't (and one tango lesson I did once was dreadful, and I get a lot more out of W&K's classes than on that occasion), then maybe it's not such a good idea.

It also depends, I'd say, on what you want out of an evening - which is why I don't think you can really separate out the "talk about dance" from the "social event" aspects. If you want a mixture of interesting music, and dancers with an experimental attitude where you can try things out, play, make mistakes without fear of censure, coupled with some teaching that mixes easy stuff with difficult stuff, then Jango would be right up your street.

But if it's any indication of anything, I'm thinking of giving Tango a proper go sometime soon if I can find somewhere not too far away. The taster you get at Jango isn't enough for me, nice though it is, and I never feel I have enough of a handle to do it well afterwards.

[Dizzy]

Do you do the classes then? 'Coz it doesn't sound like many people actually, you know, learn this stuff at the moment...


I travel to Hammersmith every week to do the Jango classes DJ and I believe that I have learnt some stuff from going - Doesn't it show in my dancing?? :innocent:

IMHO I think that since starting Jango, I have learnt to listen to the music much more and be much more aware of the style and breaks in the songs, which allows me to be more individual in my dancing. The type of moves that are taught in Jango can be quite easily adaptable into MJ and look great but I do find the classes can be a challenge :blush:, which is a good thing!!

[David Bailey]

It also depends, I'd say, on what you want out of an evening - which is why I don't think you can really separate out the "talk about dance" from the "social event" aspects.
Hmmm, you know what? I think this is where I'm getting confused.

I think (or thought, up until now) of Jango as a dance form, but it sounds like everyone else thinks of it as "The stuff that happens on Monday nights at Kent House". Whereas people can discuss salsa, WCS, MJ, AT, etc, without reference to "where it happens", it doesn't seem to be possible to do so with Jango...

Which may explain why I get a deafening silence whenever I ask questions about "Jango the dance", and "How to merge MJ and Tango". Does that make sense?

If not, then I'd really like to know more about the dance - ideally, with reference to JonD's excellent post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=164840) - has anyone even read this? :tears:


If you want a mixture of interesting music, and dancers with an experimental attitude where you can try things out, play, make mistakes without fear of censure, coupled with some teaching that mixes easy stuff with difficult stuff, then Jango would be right up your street.
Not really, sounds too much like hard work :rofl:

What I want is to learn AT, and see how that works with MJ, and I foolishly thought I could take a shortcut by learning Jango. But it sounds like "learning Jango" doesn't really make sense.

I think definitely sticking to Tango is the route, I like my Tango teacher. :flower:

[JonD]

I believe JonD gave the definitive definition of "how AT can help MJ" I blush! But re-reading that post I think it does sum up pretty accurately what AT has brought to my MJ.

I've never been to Jango at Kent House but I have tried, unsuccessfully so far, to arrange business meetings in London on a Monday and Tuesday so that I can. I live in Exeter so it'd be a bit of a trek on a school night! From what I hear about the music and the dancers, it sounds like I'd love it.

My only exposure to Jango was Amir's workshop at Bognor in Jan 05 which I enjoyed. With such limited experience I'm not sure how much I can offer to this thread but I'll make some comments anyway! I felt Jango was very much "moves" based and concentrated on techniques which allow you to get from MJ to AT "shapes" easily. Obviously, if you want to create these "shapes" accurately then you need to learn some technique - there's a vast difference between a good ocho and a clumsy one (my backward ochos are an embarrassment at the moment). However, if you tried to lead an "opposite feet lunge" in AT using the technique shown by Amir I think you'd be accused of "rowing" - that is using your arms to shove your partner to where you want them rather than leading with your body and position. That's only to be expected as Jango is teaching MJ dancers to use the tools they already have to create particular shapes rather than trying to teach them AT. Jango is a fusion, not a dance in it's own right - although I guess it might become one.

The main effect, for Julie and I, was to teach us to get from MJ to AT and back more fluently than we had been. It also encouraged us to be more "experimental" in the transitions and we now find ourselves switching from one style to the other quite frequently (and sometimes during the most inappropriate tracks). The DVD is well worth having for this element alone - it is both useful and entertaining. Jango also opened my eyes to more possibilities in MJ moves; I can now see that a particular weight shift may give me the opportunity to lead a pivot or turn which I wouldn't have otherwise considered.


What I want is to learn AT, and see how that works with MJ, and I foolishly thought I could take a shortcut by learning Jango. But it sounds like "learning Jango" doesn't really make sense.
I think definitely sticking to Tango is the route, I like my Tango teacher.
Your AT teacher sounds like a star - the amount you covered in 3 months was amazing. Definitely stay with her! However, Jango does provide a shortcut to working out how to incorporate AT into MJ so I'd commend it on that basis: when the music cries out to you to lead an ocho, a lapis or something it's damn frustrating if you can't! Equally, I'd encourage the Jango dancers to give AT a try (but find a good teacher, like David's) - it'll give you a whole new perspective on the "shapes" you've been using.

I will get to Monday night Jango soon!

[ducasi]

I've never been to Jango (the night), but I have experienced a weekend of Amir's workshops, including one on Jango (the dance). Plus I have a copy of the DVD.

What I can say is that that weekend of workshops changed my style of dancing significantly. I wouldn't claim I can do Tango or Jango, but I think I may have picked up some of the attitude that goes with it. Whatever it did, it did me good.

Like other people, I would also recommend the DVD. It gives you a flavour of what it's all about and shows shows you some of the tango-esque moves which Jango incorporates. In it Amir talks about further DVDs which will take the dance further, so I guess this DVD could be called "Jango for Beginners".

I haven't had a chance to go through it all, but what I have seen has been informative and entertaining.

As I have no access to Jango in these parts, it has made me more keen to find some AT classes in Glasgow which will hopefully teach me both AT, plus give me extra style for my MJ.

Hope this helps.

[Feelingpink]

Do you do the classes then? 'Coz it doesn't sound like many people actually, you know, learn this stuff at the moment...

When I go to Jango, I usually do Will & Kate's fab classes. This hasn't been much recently, because I'm not doing much MJ, however. And yes, lots of people "learn this stuff".


But, to clarify, I believe JonD :worthy: gave the definitive definition of "how AT can help MJ" in this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=164840), where he talked about the benefits in terms of connection, lead/follow, presentation, leading by intention, balance / weight distribution, quality of movement and musicality. I've bookmarked that post, it's my bible at the moment.

(I also note zero contributions to that thread by any Jango-ite, which is why I started this one)

To be fair, the post asked for contributions from people who had done AT - not people who had done a fusion.


But, once again, what I want to know is if people think that it'll be useful for my dance development, given the context I've outlined (long-term MJ-er and salsa-er, beginner AT-er), to try Jango, or to keep at straight AT, or to try both?

What I really really really don't want to know is people's opinions about where and when I should dance. Which is why I put that caveat in my first post, much good it did me.ChrisA probably answered the first part of this fairly well. What I'm interested to know is that when you do have another few months of AT under your belt and are looking for partners who can follow your fusion lead, where exactly are you going to find them? :devil:

[Cruella]

What I'm interested to know is that when you do have another few months of AT under your belt and are looking for partners who can follow your fusion lead, where exactly are you going to find them? :devil:
Oooh you read my mind!!

[El Salsero Gringo]

What I'm interested to know is that when you do have another few months of AT under your belt and are looking for partners who can follow your fusion lead, where exactly are you going to find them? :devil:Do you honestly think he'd find them at Kent House on a Monday, even if he went looking there?

[Cruella]

Do you honestly think he'd find them at Kent House on a Monday, even if he went looking there?
Probably have more chance there than at a ceroc venue.:whistle:

[Andreas]

That's kind of what I figured - it's move fusion rather than style fusion. OK, I think I'll stick with AT for the moment, I'll try to get a bit more of a solid background in that, then I'll see. I still think I'll order the DVD though, hopefully I can pick stuff up from that. A compromise, in other words. :)

I don't think one can separate move and style all that well. To get an AT move right you have to at least adapt a little bit of the style. As I haven't been to any Jango classes myself I can't comment on what the focus is on.

In general I would say learning the two dance forms of MJ and AT will be more benefitial than learning a fusion dance. After all, at the end you will be able to dance both AND merge the two depending on your own creativity and abilities.

The advantage of learning a fusion is, as pointed out by Katie, you learn the pretty bits right away w/o spending hours on technique. Additionally, you don't have to make up your own transition moves and points, somebody has put in the hard work for you. At least that provides you with working examples of when and how you can do it.

So both approaches certainly have their pros and cons. I personally prefer to be battered with basic technique and then come up with some moves myself and/or learn them at a later point because basic technique is the most important stuff in learning a dance for me. But that is just my opinion and it doesn't mean that I will not make the effort to at least pop in at a t-jive again. :D :flower:

[Andreas]

What I'm interested to know is that when you do have another few months of AT under your belt and are looking for partners who can follow your fusion lead, where exactly are you going to find them? :devil:

Cheeky! :yum:

The way I(!) see this is that exactly that is the challenge that male dancers (should) look for. There is little art in 'leading' a person through moves and combinations that both have learned (together?). It also does not help improving ones own dancing all that much, it only improves the portfolio of moves.

As a lead I am always trying to find out just how I can make the follower want to do the move that I am leading, regardless of prior knowledge. The idea is to work out 'perfect' leads that make you do what I have in mind :devil: :whistle: :innocent: not what you recognise as coming up next.

While I think all leads should work out how to lead unknown moves and combinations I also am a strong believer in all followers to actually try to follow rather than 'recognise'. Both of these are equally hard to accomplish. And AT is certainly the perfect source for solving (?) this problem. The difficulty and challenge of AT is reading the subtleties and I do not know another dance form that emphasises on mutual awareness as much as AT does. :flower:

[Feelingpink]

Cheeky! :yum:

The way I(!) see this is that exactly that is the challenge that male dancers (should) look for. There is little art in 'leading' a person through moves and combinations that both have learned (together?). It also does not help improving ones own dancing all that much, it only improves the portfolio of moves.

As a lead I am always trying to find out just how I can make the follower want to do the move that I am leading, regardless of prior knowledge. The idea is to work out 'perfect' leads that make you do what I have in mind :devil: :whistle: :innocent: not what you recognise as coming up next.

While I think all leads should work out how to lead unknown moves and combinations I also am a strong believer in all followers to actually try to follow rather than 'recognise'. Both of these are equally hard to accomplish. And AT is certainly the perfect source for solving (?) this problem. The difficulty and challenge of AT is reading the subtleties and I do not know another dance form that emphasises on mutual awareness as much as AT does. :flower:Sorry Andreas, I probably wasn't very clear in my post. I was asking DJ about followers who were able to follow a good lead into any move, rather than having prior knowledge of particular moves. My understanding (from talking to leaders) is that not all women are able to follow well - and those who have only experienced a "traditional" or "conventional" lead may take some time to happily adapt to a leader who may take them into moves they don't know. I'm really talking about followers who have learned good following skills.

[Andreas]

Sorry Andreas, I probably wasn't very clear in my post. I was asking DJ about followers who were able to follow a good lead into any move, rather than having prior knowledge of particular moves. My understanding (from talking to leaders) is that not all women are able to follow well - and those who have only experienced a "traditional" or "conventional" lead may take some time to happily adapt to a leader who may take them into moves they don't know. I'm really talking about followers who have learned good following skills.

I thought I had covered that in my post, too. :blush: At the end of the day, I really believe that AT is the perfect way of learning follow and lead as in no other environment. Sure, there are some great followers in MJ and there are some great leads. But you will hardly ever hear me complain about a bad follower. If I lead a move it is I who has to make sure that the lead is such that the follower WANTS to do what I want her to do. Sure, this is a lot easier with some followers than with others. But at the end it is my job to lead unambiguously, which works sometimes better than other times.

But again, the subtleties taught in AT are, as far as I have experienced it, the non plus ultra in lead and follow. Both benefit immensely from it but both will also benefit from it if only one half of the partnership has undergone that school, be it male or female. :flower:

[Mary]

Excellent post by JonD - seems to be a very balanced and informed view. I would also sympathise with DJ in asking a valid question about Jango - the fusion developed by Amir and getting bombarded by evangelical banging on about Jango - the dance night (of which I know I am equally guilty).

The Jango-style Tango moves as taught by Will and Kate does not always require the signature 'extra-close' hold of Tango, but I think all other technique taught would be the same as for Tango. I won't go any further into pros and cons as this seems to be pretty well summed up by JonD. However, I would like to think that Jango-style teaching has helped me with following (and, hopefully, with the recommended styling). I was very chuffed this Christmas to be led by someone who has been doing AT for a few months. A Tango track came on we agreed to give it a go. Nothing too complicated but I was chuffed at following everything and he was chuffed at being able to lead everything. I did remember to try and keep a closer hold (than taught in Jango) and this helped no end I think.

I would say that Jango is as it says on the tin - a fusion (but teaching good technique in there), but not a short cut to pure AT, however it may give some people the push to take up AT maybe.

M

[philsmove]

, so I thought I'd create a separate thread.

rk.

Thanks for starting a really interesting thread and bringing dance back to the forum :cheers:

[Cruella]

I would say that Jango is as it says on the tin - a fusion (but teaching good technique in there), but not a short cut to pure AT, however it may give some people the push to take up AT maybe.

M
Certainly agree with this, before i went to Jango my thoughts on Tango were 'I don't think i'd like it' whereas now i would definately be interested in finding a good Tango teacher (and a partner to learn with).

[David Bailey]

In general I would say learning the two dance forms of MJ and AT will be more benefitial than learning a fusion dance. After all, at the end you will be able to dance both AND merge the two depending on your own creativity and abilities.
I think you're right - I was looking for a shortcut, 'coz I'm a lazzy beggar. But as with all these things, it's probably best to do it the hard way. I'll still get the Jango DVD I think, but I'll focus most of my efforts on this AT stuff for now.

As for the "Where will I find dance partners to follow me?" question - hmm, I guess I'll have to just pick them up off the street or something....


Probably have more chance there than at a ceroc venue.:whistle:
Yeah, 'coz only rubbish dancers go to those places. :devil:

Slightly more seriously, I don't believe that I'll need to find "elite follower" simply to follow my hopefully super-with-added-tango lead - any more than I now need to find elite followers to follow the cross-body leads I've been fond of for the past few months.

And if I did depend on a follower being that advanced, then my lead wouldn't be clear enough. Clearly :)

[Lynn]

Thanks for starting a really interesting thread and bringing dance back to the forum :cheers::yeah:


As a lead I am always trying to find out just how I can make the follower want to do the move that I am leading, regardless of prior knowledge.Yeah, surely thats the challenge of good leading and good following? It won't work with every partner combination but it will work with enough. I presume the lead will get a bit of an idea in the first few moments of the dance whether lady will be able to follow tango fusion moves and take it from there.

Its not just at Jango events where you will find people trying AT or AT fusion moves. I've had someone try to lead me in their own version of fusion moves in May 04 at Southport (I wasn't very good though, hope to find the same guy this year and see if I can do any better!), I saw people dancing AT there last Sep and this year at both Scarborough in Feb and Southport in June there will be a couple teaching AT so I will expect there will be both some AT and some fusion moves being danced.:D

The Jango DVD is excellent, I think it would be a useful tool to anyone interested in ways of adapting and fusing tango moves into MJ.

I have been along to a Jango T-jive recently and really enjoyed it, the music was fab and the dancing was lovely. But no-one tried to lead me in any Jango/tango moves that I recall, the only tangoish dancing I did that weekend was at Ashtons. :whistle:

[David Bailey]

the only tangoish dancing I did that weekend was at Ashtons. :whistle:
And very nice it was too :)

[Andreas]

I have been along to a Jango T-jive recently and really enjoyed it, the music was fab and the dancing was lovely. But no-one tried to lead me in any Jango/tango moves that I recall

The first time I went along to t-jive I actually did a 'fusion dance' with a lady that appeared to be a regulr there. It was a lot of fun but also very challenging because obviously I tried to keep it as tangoish as possible as the music was AT, yet, I had no idea what I'd be able to put her through. Very interesting and fun! :D

[Lynn]

The first time I went along to t-jive I actually did a 'fusion dance' with a lady that appeared to be a regulr there. It was a lot of fun but also very challenging because obviously I tried to keep it as tangoish as possible as the music was AT, yet, I had no idea what I'd be able to put her through. Very interesting and fun! :DI'm sure I did see some other folk doing more Jango/tango moves, but I don't remember anyone trying any with me, maybe they reckoned I wouldn't be able to follow them (possibly rightly! :( ).

Its more challenging for the follower too, but I like to be challenged!:D

[Andreas]

I'm sure I did see some other folk doing more Jango/tango moves, but I don't remember anyone trying any with me, maybe they reckoned I wouldn't be able to follow them (possibly rightly! :( ).

Its more challenging for the follower too, but I like to be challenged!:D

One hopes Will reads this and encourages the guys to try those moves whenever the music fits rather than whenever they dance with somebody from the class! :yeah:

[Zebra Woman]

The first time I went along to t-jive I actually did a 'fusion dance' with a lady that appeared to be a regulr there. It was a lot of fun but also very challenging because obviously I tried to keep it as tangoish as possible as the music was AT, yet, I had no idea what I'd be able to put her through. Very interesting and fun! :D

Was that me? ISTR you gave me an amazing Tango De Roxanne, I felt like I was in the film:worthy: .

Apologies for not joining in, I have never had a real Argentinian Tango lesson so I have nothing much to add to the AT helping MJ thread... sorry.



I'm sure I did see some other folk doing more Jango/tango moves, but I don't remember anyone trying any with me, maybe they reckoned I wouldn't be able to follow them (possibly rightly! ).

Its more challenging for the follower too, but I like to be challenged!


:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

It is true in my experience too. I can spend an entire evening at Jango without actually being led into a AT move :sad: . I don't know why...The music has to be right, the leader confident and inspired....I would like much more crossing over into AT but I don't choose the moves, I'm just followiing.

That said, other times I have felt like I have spent a good part of the evening dancing a tango fusion. :clap:

The difference between Jango and Ceroc? That is easiest to see if you either turn up there, or watch the DVD DJ. :whistle:

In words: I would say the jiving at Jango seems smoother than ceroc on average (if you watch the video Amir explains why it has to be smoother), and the dance is quite tidy and slotted. The music is a key element IMO, it's sets the mood. It is up to 25% tango-ish and the enviroment is safe for making mistakes, so people play around more and have a laugh when it goes wrong.

If I were a novice male AT dancer looking for interesting music and leadable women to play with I would make haste to Jango...but then that's just my opinion.

ZW

[Andreas]

Was that me? ISTR you gave me an amazing Tango De Roxanne, I felt like I was in the film:worthy: .

I think that was at Ashton's, wasn't it? Thanks, it was great fun. Although you may not have done AT, you have a good feel for that sort of music and do know a couple of embellishments that suit. :hug:

My former dance partner and I choreographed our first ever routine to that piece. That was after I had been jiving for one year. So when you and I danced it I wasn't actually doing any of those moves but still knew the music very well. :D :whistle:

But the AT I referred to I did with a lady whose name I don't even know :whistle:

[Mary]

But the AT I referred to I did with a lady whose name I don't even know :whistle:


Give us a description and maybe one of us can put a name to the face for you. Well, actually it's not for your benefit, but I'm curious and fancy a game of guess the partner.:devil: :wink:

Or do you like the idea of having a fab dance with a stranger and then never knowing who they are. Hmph, men can be so bl**dy romantic sometimes.:whistle: :what:

M

[Lynn]

One hopes Will reads this and encourages the guys to try those moves whenever the music fits rather than whenever they dance with somebody from the class! :yeah:Actually I think Will might have led me in some of the moves, but we were too busy chatting for me to particularly notice. :blush:

I agree with ZW, aside from the actual moves themselves, the Jango style (as per the DVD) is smoother than standard MJ.

[Andreas]

Give us a description and maybe one of us can put a name to the face for you. Well, actually it's not for your benefit, but I'm curious and fancy a game of guess the partner.:devil: :wink:

Or do you like the idea of having a fab dance with a stranger and then never knowing who they are. Hmph, men can be so bl**dy romantic sometimes.:whistle: :what:

M

Oha, you are funny, you know :D

This must be about a year back or so, can't even remember when I was there. As far as I remember she was possibly in her 40's, slim and had curly shortish hair, and wore a dress. Over to you :yum:

[Mary]

Oha, you are funny, you know :D

This must be about a year back or so, can't even remember when I was there. As far as I remember she was possibly in her 40's, slim and had curly shortish hair, and wore a dress. Over to you :yum:

I'll get thinking and come back to you.

Meanwhile Happy New Year and have fun tonight everyone who is still sad enough to be online to read this.:wink:

M

[Andreas]

Meanwhile Happy New Year and have fun tonight everyone who is still sad enough to be online to read this.:wink:

M

And to you! But of course you won't be reading this before tomorrow! :yum: :hug:

[Amir]

I want to post my take on the theory behind Jango later, but thought I would give any short responses to some questions on this thread first.


Interesting. So would you say that it's more at a move level than a "style" level from your point-of-view? E.g. it's "Here's how you can lead an ocho from a first move", rather than "Here's how to stand and walk"?



I would say that Jango classes (I speak for myself but am sure Will and Kate’s classes are similar), place an emphasise on moves with style. In the process of learning the move, we work on the style necessary to make it look and feel good. The style you learn in one more should help others, over time.

On the DVD we discuss various elements of style in the walk, frame and positioning.

I normally start my classes with a short walking exercise, but find that most new comers are quite confused as to their purpose. Throughout the class we will stop, separate couples, and work on various aspects of style.

My premise is that style is something you develop over many classes in small doses. A move you can more or less learn in one class.

My hope is that people will like the move, will come back for more, and will get another chance to work on their style.

My experience is that if I stay on 'this is how to stand and walk' for too long, people stand, and walk. Away. And don't come back.

Best to teach style disguised in a flash move.

Then, by the time they are stylish, its too late. Ha ha. But don't tell anyone.





Basically, what I want to know is, would I be confused by trying to learn Jango style, or is it a short cut? In other words, does it help or hinder learning Argentinian Tango?



Some people find that learning French and Italian at the same time is confusing, because they are similar. But if your French is strong, it will help your Italian. Probably just give it a go and see for yourself. The Jango dancers I know who have started Tango have said that it has helped them.

I think the main thing is to remember that they are different dances; Jango is not modern jive with tango moves. It is modern jive inspired dancing with tango inspired moves. So not everything you learn in Jango is relevant in Tango. Even some of the moves that look like Tango have been modified so that they fuse well with the rest of the dance.

(What I am trying to say is do not try to transfer the 'rules' you learn in tango to jango or from jango to tango as they are not the same. Also don't try to read that last sentence out loud more than three times in a row.)

My guess from reading your posts is that your modern jive is strong enough and that you are observant enough for Jango to help rather than hinder your Tango. Let us know either way, as it is interesting.

[Clive Long]

Oha, you are funny, you know :D

This must be about a year back or so, can't even remember when I was there. As far as I remember she was possibly in her 40's, slim and had curly shortish hair, and wore a dress. Over to you :yum:
No phone number? No phone number, man? What were you thinking?

Oh, sorry, we don't go dancing to pick up women. :blush: :whistle: :devil:

[David Franklin]

Oh, sorry, we don't go dancing to pick up women. :blush: :whistle: :devil:Speak for yourself! It's putting them down again that's tricky...

[Amir]

I think (or thought, up until now) of Jango as a dance form, but it sounds like everyone else thinks of it as "The stuff that happens on Monday nights at Kent House". Whereas people can discuss salsa, WCS, MJ, AT, etc, without reference to "where it happens", it doesn't seem to be possible to do so with Jango...


Probably because so far it mainly only happens in one place!

You should be able to discuss Jango the dance as separate from the night. Part of the problem is that the night has been named 'Monday Night Jango' for a while now. It is now called 'Monday Lush' to reflect the lush ambience created by Toby and Claire's venue and music management, 'with a Jango class' to reflect the typical content of Will and Kate's class.





What I want is to learn AT, and see how that works with MJ, and I foolishly thought I could take a shortcut by learning Jango. But it sounds like "learning Jango" doesn't really make sense.

I think definitely sticking to Tango is the route, I like my Tango teacher. :flower:


If you want to be able to go to a Tango venue and dance AT, then you definitely need to stick with as many pure tango classes as you can.

If you would like to have your modern jive influenced by tango, and get a short cut from people who have done a lot of this kind of work, then jango classes, workshops and dvds will be excellent for you. (Tango classes will still help though.)

One of the main reasons Tango-Jive was born was because people like me didn't want to have to go to tango venues to do all the cool stuff we were learning there, but couldn't really do it at most modern jive venues because the music and people there were not conducive to it.

But my dream venues are where lots of cool things would be happening. Many people at the T-Jive and Monday/Funky Lush freestyles are not doing Jango. There is a lot of modern jive. Some West Coast Swing. some nite club 2step. some Argentinean Tango. Some Jango. There are plenty of advanced modern jivers who have their own very unique style of modern jive which borrows from many sources. The music is equally as varied.

So my advice to anyone is not to come to the T-Jive, Mondays or FunkyLush and expect a room full of people doing 'Jango' as it is taught in mine or Kate and Will's classes. Having said that, these places are among the best if that is what you want to do.

[Lynn]

My premise is that style is something you develop over many classes in small doses. A move you can more or less learn in one class. Very true!

[Amir]

In general I would say learning the two dance forms of MJ and AT will be more benefitial than learning a fusion dance. After all, at the end you will be able to dance both AND merge the two depending on your own creativity and abilities.


Here is my opinion:

If you learn German and French, and try to merge the two, you will probably not come up with English.

A fusion is more than just a mix of two sources.

There are now many people who can dance both modern jive and tango, but cannot dance an effective fusion. They can dance a bit of jive, then dance a few moves of tango, but that is not the same. That is like saying half a sentence in French and finishing of with some German. That is a mix. Not a fusion.

In creating a fusion you create something new. Jango is still young so this fusion is not quite complete. Quality takes time.



...you don't have to make up your own transition moves and points, somebody has put in the hard work for you. At least that provides you with working examples of when and how you can do it.



The work we are doing is not about finding transition points any more. Then we would end up with a mix, or a salad. Tango-Jive had to start with mixing moves, but with jango we are now working on fusing moves so there is tango inspired footwork in amonst modern jive movements and the style is one.




The advantage of learning a fusion is, as pointed out by Katie, you learn the pretty bits right away w/o spending hours on technique.


I think that depends on the teacher. I could teach a tango class with no technique and lots of pretty moves. (In Buenos Aires there are lots of these kind of classes.) Or I could teach a Jango class with nothing but technique. (And sometimes do). Most week night classes in any dance form tend to focus on moves, with technique classes left for workshops and one-off classes.

[Rhythm King]

I think that depends on the teacher. I could teach a tango class with no technique and lots of pretty moves. (In Buenos Aires there are lots of these kind of classes.) Or I could teach a Jango class with nothing but technique. (And sometimes do). Most week night classes in any dance form tend to focus on moves, with technique classes left for workshops and one-off classes.

You could, but will you? - this is the question. Please, please - pretty please!

[David Bailey]

{ snip lots of very useful stuff }
That's very useful, thanks.


On the DVD we discuss various elements of style in the walk, frame and positioning.
Walking! Yay! I'll order it immediately :)


Part of the problem is that the night has been named 'Monday Night Jango' for a while now. It is now called 'Monday Lush' to reflect the lush ambience created by Toby and Claire's venue and music management, 'with a Jango class' to reflect the typical content of Will and Kate's class.
OK, 'coz that's not confusing to us poor mortals... :tears:

("Monday Lush" - I've seen some of those... :rofl: )


If you want to be able to go to a Tango venue and dance AT, then you definitely need to stick with as many pure tango classes as you can.

If you would like to have your modern jive influenced by tango, and get a short cut from people who have done a lot of this kind of work, then jango classes, workshops and dvds will be excellent for you. (Tango classes will still help though.)

I want to to both! I know, I'm greedy.

Thanks again for those contributions. I think I'm slowly gaining understanding...

[Amir]

You could, but will you? - this is the question. Please, please - pretty please!

I have no plans to teach pure tango. There are many excellent teachers in London already doing that. My recommendation for anyone wanting to learn tango is www.tangoinaction.com. DavidJames seems pleased with his teacher, perhaps he will post him/her as well.

I would like to start teaching more Jango classes, but these kind of things take time to organise. Will let you know!

[David Bailey]

DavidJames seems pleased with his teacher, perhaps he will post him/her as well.
Kicca Tommasi - teaches at Finchley and The Dome in Tufnell Park, and other places presumably. She's great :flower:

Clive's done a whole thread here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6361) about North London tango stuff, including reviews.

[El Salsero Gringo]

It is now called 'Monday Lush' And how long, one wonders will it be before it gets called Londay Mush - or just Mush for short?

Er, wait...:sick:

[Mary]

And how long, one wonders will it be before it gets called Londay Mush - or just Mush for short?

Er, wait...:sick:


Blimey! You are bored.

:D

M

[Andreas]

Speak for yourself! It's putting them down again that's tricky...
You got that all wrong! It's the getting up from beneath them, that is the tricky part :whistle: :yum:

[Sheepman]

I'm sure I did see some other folk doing more Jango/tango moves, but I don't remember anyone trying any with me, Well I'm sure I did at least one, but I'm quite pleased that you didn't notice! I do find that I need mopre space for those few Jango moves I can reliably lead, which can make them tricky at a busy t-jive.

Greg

[Katie]

I can spend an entire evening at Jango without actually being led into a AT move :sad: . I don't know why...

:yeah:
This is the sad thing, i'd love to be led more into Jango moves, however I can only think of a handful of times when I have :sad: I know it is not solely the guy's responsibility, and when given the chance to "play", I like to do some tango inspired footwork especially if i'm wearing my pretty shoes, because my feet are almost tuned into doing tango/ballroom footwork (strange eh!)

However, I may get flamed for saying the following, but the majority (actually more) of the freestyle dancing is modern jive!! And despite the brilliant and innovative classes by Kate and Will, and the lush electro-tango music by TWK, I rarely see any man trying Jango :sad: What more can be done to inspire men to be more daring and play?? :devil: Us girlies, love to be challenged :innocent: , and I certainly wouldn't mind at all if in trying, the man makes a mistake - at least it makes us both smile!

Or... I could learn to lead myself; MsFab has a great lead in the classes! :clap:

[David Bailey]

:yeah:
This is the sad thing, i'd love to be led more into Jango moves, however I can only think of a handful of times when I have :sad: I know it is not solely the guy's responsibility, and when given the chance to "play", I like to do some tango inspired footwork especially if i'm wearing my pretty shoes, because my feet are almost tuned into doing tango/ballroom footwork (strange eh!)
Yeah, but if you're not being led into a Jango / tango move, there's not much you can do about it as a follower, can you?


However, I may get flamed for saying the following, but the majority (actually more) of the freestyle dancing is modern jive!!
You heathen you... :)


What more can be done to inspire men to be more daring and play?? :devil:
Well, people could talk about the dance more, how it's used, discuss some moves, some style, some technique, that sort of thing.

People could maybe even discuss such things online, using this clever new information superhighway thing, in one of those internet chat room things, or, what are they called again? Starts with an "F", works like a discussion group, the name's on the tip of my tongue...

Nah, that's crazy talk. :devil:

[Lynn]

Well I'm sure I did at least one, but I'm quite pleased that you didn't notice! I do find that I need mopre space for those few Jango moves I can reliably lead, which can make them tricky at a busy t-jive. Yes it was quite busy. And I don't tend to 'recognise' any of the moves you lead, I just try to follow - always lovely dances...

[Katie]

Yeah, but if you're not being led into a Jango / tango move, there's not much you can do about it as a follower, can you?

Well...I do have a sneaky way of leading a move...:innocent: . Firm pressure with my frame, creating a little space between my partner and I, and then i'm able to ocho's from left to right, or sometimes if the man breaks in the music I can do flick between the legs...not very exciting...:rolleyes: Any other suggestions ladies? I know, I know, i'm supposed to be a follower and not disrupt the lead....:rolleyes:



Well, people could talk about the dance more, how it's used, discuss some moves, some style, some technique, that sort of thing.

We already do that, and by no means am I just relating that this to Jango, I have been to many ceroc and MJ classes in the past, and again it was rare for the men to add the new moves in the class into their repetoire. I know i'm moaning about men today, but sometimes I read all this talk about the moves, style of Jango, for example, and I hardly experience it! I know, the answer is probably: if I attend more Jango classes, the guys will recognise me and then think, i'll try a Jango move because she did it in the class, but... Jango classes clashes with my AT class...decisions, decisions...

[Amir]

You could, but will you? - this is the question. Please, please - pretty please!


Oh, ok then.

[Zuhal]

OK I bought the Jango DVD.

It took longer for me to negotiate the paypal payment system than the delivery itself.

Ordered at 12 ish and on my doormat at 1630 same day:worthy:

Great stuff

Zuhal

[David Bailey]

OK I bought the Jango DVD.

It took longer for me to negotiate the paypal payment system than the delivery itself.
I finally admitted defeat in the Great Hunt For The Chequebook, and I too had to go via paypal :tears:

[Rhythm King]

Oh, ok then.
Yay! :clap:

Amir will be starting 3 hour Jango workshops on Sundays, before the T-Jives. A chance to get some intense learning, followed by lush tunes to try it all out. And cake.

If you don't ask, you don't get :wink:

[Dizzy]

Yay! :clap:

Amir will be starting 3 hour Jango workshops on Sundays, before the T-Jives. A chance to get some intense learning, followed by lush tunes to try it all out. And cake.

If you don't ask, you don't get :wink:


:clap: :clap: :clap:
Thanks RK!! :hug: (and Amir :flower: )

[Kev F]

Jango is unique and seems to constantly touch on areas that other dance classes don't, or won't :sad:

It's good than Amir is constantly evolving his class and has learnt since Barbie and Kens accident here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=190941&postcount=30)....and from their natural progression towards better style here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=191516&postcount=47)....and their online tango lessons here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=191564&postcount=50)...and his genius................ has encouraged him to produce 'Jango Barbie & Ken.'

Amir, the resemblance is incredible :D :flower:

And now ZW has her own doll out. That will be the must have gift for every Jangoist :worthy: (After 'Tango Kev F & Lory ©' of course)

[Chef]

Amir, the resemblance is incredible :D :flower:



That is just so spooky. That doll sent a shiver down my spine. It is like being in the same room as Amir himself. The eyes seem to follow you around the room.

I didn't realise that Amir was so famous that a collectors doll had been made of him.

[ChrisA]

And now ZW has her own doll out.
Actually, despite the Zebra styling, on close inspection that dark-haired doll is clearly Hayley...:whistle:

[Zebra Woman]

Actually, despite the Zebra styling, on close inspection that dark-haired doll is clearly Hayley...:whistle:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I don't think Hayley would wear a skirt that short :really: .

I think we need an identity parade.

I have a Zebra coat just like the one pictured (it's reversible:innocent: ), and a red scarf, just need some red boots...

.....and Hayley... and a couple of other likely lookin' women...

Perhaps Tessalucious for one?


ZW

[ChrisA]

I don't think Hayley would wear a skirt that short :really:

We live in hope... :devil:

[Tessalicious]

...Perhaps Tessalucious...would wear a skirt that short...You don't know me at all, do you ZW?
(they're not always that long)
:whistle: :devil:

[ChrisA]

You don't know me at all, do you ZW?
(they're not always that long)
:whistle: :devil:
Prove it, then.... :devil:

[Cruella]

We live in hope...


Prove it, then.... :devil:

You're starting to sound like a bit of a pervert Chris!! :whistle:

[Zebra Woman]

You're starting to sound like a bit of a pervert Chris!! :whistle:


You don't know ChrisA at all, do you Cruella?
:whistle: :devil:

[ChrisA]

You don't know ChrisA at all, do you Cruella?
:whistle: :devil:
Quiet, girl... or my secret will get out...

[Kev F]

That is just so spooky. That doll sent a shiver down my spine. It is like being in the same room as Amir himself. The eyes seem to follow you around the room.

I didn't realise that Amir was so famous that a collectors doll had been made of him.

He's not the only famous Jango Doll.:wink:

Kate???????

[David Bailey]

He's not the only famous Jango Doll.:wink:

Kate???????
OK, even I'm starting to get a bit worried about this doll thing - legit teaching aid, tick, but dressing them up, hmmm... :eek:

[Cruella]

OK, even I'm starting to get a bit worried about this doll thing - legit teaching aid, tick, but dressing them up, hmmm... :eek:
I guess it could be worse he could be blowing them up! :D (as in inflating, not with a bomb!)

[David Bailey]

OK, I've finally worked my way through the Jango DVD, and here's my review comments - be warned, it's a long one...

So, it started off with a couple of cabaret numbers. I wasn’t that impressed, and started to wonder if I could get my £25 back – I know, I know, but I’ve been emotionally scarred by being forced to watch the Elder Sanchez “Learn to salsa” ego-trip, err, video, at a young and tender age. Not tender enough to buy the thing of course, but watching it for free was no picnic believe me. Anyway…

The first section talked started with a lovely freestyle demonstration of AT :drool: then talking about frame, handhold, connection and footwork (Andy McGregor will be happy to know that neither Amir or Kate are fans of the bouncy hand, by the way).

The next sections introduced three gateway moves from MJ -> AT:

The New Way of Doing A First Move, and a variation on this, with a swivel as the lady turns out
The Manhattan (strangely, I’ve used this for a while now as a salsa gateway move, allowing me to get into cross-body leads. Huh, small world.)
A half-turn / return with a dramatic stop


Next, there was lots of talking about shape and frame (very much like the AT classes I’ve been doing), the details of the handhold, how to generate a connection and walk forwards and backwards. All standard AT stuff.

And then there was walking! Yay! Lots of walking, fantastic. How to walk, how to move the feet, that sort of thing.

More moves to follow: the West Manhattan, the Rumba step, the Manhattan traverse, and the Manhattan turning traverse; interesting steps, and I’ll play with them to see how I go. I felt happiest with the Rumba when I tried it out on Weds, but that’s probably just me.

The moves aren’t tricky by themselves, but they do have very interesting possibilities for variations – for example, the West Manhattan had some lovely potential for a tango-esque turn (giro). But I think that’ll take a while to play with, as I can barely lead a turn in AT proper at the moment.

And, of course, all the moves require frame, connection and footwork to correctly lead and follow them. Which, frankly, rules out most MJ leaders and followers :AT snob icon:

They spent some time describing the touch step – hnmmm, I dunno, it’s such a tricky thing to lead, I can’t see it being leadable unless the follower has done some tango / Jango stuff.

OCHOES!! (should there be an “E”?)

A lovely demonstration of an ocho, from a neckbreak, which blew me away – I never even considered leading an ocho with the lady facing away from me - and I doubt it’d be acceptable in AT - but it looks like it works very well in MJ. Veeerrry interesting…
Framed ocho(e)s next – just like a standard AT forward ocho, led from a half-return and using the momentum to lead the follower into the ocho.
Finally, backward ochos – I had a slight advantage here, as the move displayed was a slightly more basic (!) version of an ocho move demonstrated at Finchley a few months ago (who’d have thought it :devil: ) – ie. no trapping of the lady’s feet, just a straightforward exit.


Demonstration of using the bar to practise the ocho-movement next, good tip.

Tango lunges and slides next – interestingly, I’d never actually used the arm circle thing for a lunge, but I just kind of shrugged and hoped – hey, it worked for me. OK, OK, I'll do it properly from now on :rolleyes:

Finally, Tango Pose – hmm, I was running out of mental puff by this, but I’ll review it (and all the others) over the next few weeks.

Tango Slide, looked very nice – finally, a move I know well :) – but I’ll have to practise doing it properly now :(

Finally, a “coming attractions” – apparently there will be several more DVDs in the series. Good :)

Conclusion:
very useful, and I couldn’t see anything that that would interfere with learning AT (which was my main concern at the start of this thread). All the leading and stylistic directions are straight AT-compatible, so this should be very useful.

I still have reservations about how smooth swapping from MJ to AT will be – but I guess it very much depends on how smooth you dance in the first place. And the great thing about MJ is the variety - I can see a possibility of doing, in the same MJ dance, AT, salsa, rumba, and cha-cha steps :) Which would be… interesting…

Miscellaneous points:

I liked the two-teachers approach; they both work very well together in describing man and lady points.
Blimey, how many outfits does Kate have?
The comic interludes (“behind the scenes”) which were fantastic – my fave was the Amir “It’s not easy being a sex god” monologue.
Oh, and Amir? Eat some pies, guy, you’re wasting away…
“We’re now going to do the Manhattan turning traverse, or the… turning traverse Manhattan… or the tr… oh, any of those combinations will do.” :rofl:

[Whitebeard]

Blimey, how many outfits does Kate have?

More even than Josie at latindance.com ??? (Where's that 'drool' icon which I suddenly hanker for ?)

[Baruch]

(Where's that 'drool' icon which I suddenly hanker for ?)
How about this one?

[Whitebeard]

How about this one?

No, no, this is really serious (almost life threatening) puckilly drooling I'm looking for.

[Will]

... how many outfits does Kate have?

.....right out of my mouth! :really:

[Lou]

.....right out of my mouth! :really:
That's a funny place to keep your credit card....

[David Bailey]

OK, anyway, I'm going to carry on talking about the topic, call me crazy on that one... :na:

I'm wondering if anyone's found the transition between MJ and Jango (in a single dance) awkward? Because I can see dancing AT to, well, anything really. And I can see dancing Jango-style, which is kind of a modified AT, to certain tracks.

But what I'm not sure about is whether it'd work to just throw in the occasional Jango / AT move, then go back to normal freestyle. Simply because the bits where Amir moved from one to another, just looked a bit "off" - compared to the bits where he was dancing near-AT Jango. Although that's possibly because AT looks much nicer than MJ to me anyway.

Certainly, I'd imagine there are enough Jango-style moves to fill in an entire track, with a bit of AT improvisation. So, in other words, do you dance Jango for an entire track, pretty much, or is it possible to truly fuse Jango and MJ?

[Lynn]

Certainly, I'd imagine there are enough Jango-style moves to fill in an entire track, with a bit of AT improvisation. So, in other words, do you dance Jango for an entire track, pretty much, or is it possible to truly fuse Jango and MJ?Thought you were going to stop doing moves anyway DJ? :whistle:

Seriously, I wonder is this part of why I haven't seen that many people actually doing Jango moves in freestyle. OK I know I've only been to one Jango freestyle, but I have danced with a lot of Jango regulars at weekenders. Then again they may be leading Jango moves and I haven't realised, (as Greg did) because they have smoothly fitted them in with the rest of the dance. Or perhaps its easier to use them if you've done some AT? Or maybe its still something that is being built up and worked out in practice for a lot of people? I don't know, just asking.

Though even if people don't actually do any of the Jango moves, there is a still a lot to learn from the Jango DVD in terms of technique and style.

[David Bailey]

Thought you were going to stop doing moves anyway DJ? :whistle:
What, you want consistency from me now? You're a hard taskmistress :tears:

Hmmm... good question. I guess mainly I was referring to MJ when talking about the "no moves" thing. And I didn't mean "no steps", of course - just "no long sequences of steps". Well, except for the ones I really really like of course... :grin:

You have to learn "moves" (or steps) in any dance - even AT, you've got giros, secadas, ganchos etc. But with Jango, I'm probably talking more about steps or components of moves - lunges, ocho(e?)s, slides etc. - rather than "moves", which I'd define as something like the First Move, Neckbreak, and so on.

So, the Jango First Move is interesting, but not really necessary in full (IMHO) to get into a correct position vis-a-vis foot and weight alignment. So I'd probably just take parts or components of that. In fact, looking at it, I can see some similarities to an unnatural turn in salsa (the sort of thing you'd use after a cross-body lead), so I think I might try to do it like that. Another variation that occurred to me watching was a "whip-out" at the end, where instead of simply pushing the lady out clockwise, I could whip the lady round one-and-a-half times anti-clockwise - again, that works in salsa with foot distribution, so it could work in Ceroc.

Similarly, the Jango Neckbreak ocho is interesting, but again only because it demonstrates a concept - i.e. you can lead ochos with the partner facing away from you, in a double-handed hold. Given that concept, I can see that this might equally apply to moves like a sway and perhaps even a basket. So I aim to take the initial concept, break it down into components, and see how I can adapt it.

(Boy, this was going to be a short reply :rolleyes: )


Seriously, I wonder is this part of why I haven't seen that many people actually doing Jango moves in freestyle. OK I know I've only been to one Jango freestyle, but I have danced with a lot of Jango regulars at weekenders. Then again they may be leading Jango moves and I haven't realised, (as Greg did) because they have smoothly fitted them in with the rest of the dance. Or perhaps its easier to use them if you've done some AT? Or maybe its still something that is being built up and worked out in practice for a lot of people? I don't know, just asking.
It's a very good question, and one which I've tried to raise before in this thread.

I don't really pay attention to people dancing, but the only real AT-like moves I've seen at a MJ venue recently have been people dancing, well, AT. I've not often seen people dancing yer actual Jango, which is why I asked about the smoothness of transition.

I'm still very interested to hear from other people who do dance Jango - assuming there are any :innocent: - about this area?


Though even if people don't actually do any of the Jango moves, there is a still a lot to learn from the Jango DVD in terms of technique and style.
Absolutely. Buy the DVD! "Endorsed by DavidJames" :)

[Dizzy]

OK, anyway, I'm going to carry on talking about the topic, call me crazy on that one... :na:

Certainly, I'd imagine there are enough Jango-style moves to fill in an entire track, with a bit of AT improvisation. So, in other words, do you dance Jango for an entire track, pretty much, or is it possible to truly fuse Jango and MJ?

From going to Jango on a regular basis and dancing at the freestyles, I can say that it is possible to dance smoothly mixing the Jango and MJ moves. :clap:

Quite a few of the Jango regular men, like ChrisA, UP, KevF and Tony will regularly be dancing MJ to a certain song and then add Jango moves like ochos, flicks and sandwiches (sorry if spelt wrong :blush: ) to add variety to the dance, depending on whatever song may be playing :. The moves themselves do feel easy to slot into the dance. I think that, like a lot of moves in other dances, the moves can be easier if the follower knows the signals and these moves are no different. I personally feel that moves such as ochos can be quite difficult to lead unless the lady understands what she is expected to do or the lead is strong enough to *push* the lady in the right direction.

[Feelingpink]

...

Quite a few of the Jango regular men, like ChrisA, UP, KevF and Tony will regularly be dancing MJ to a certain song and then add Jango moves like ochos, flicks and sandwiches (sorry if spelt wrong :blush: ) to add variety to the dance, depending on whatever song may be playing...Sandwiches with other people???!!!! Am I the only person who thought sandwiches are something else entirely (but certainly WOULD add variety) :devil:

[Dizzy]

Sandwiches with other people???!!!! Am I the only person who thought sandwiches are something else entirely (but certainly WOULD add variety) :devil:

The thing I am talking about is descibed by KevF in this thread:


I don't know what else you could mean??!! :innocent:

[Lynn]

What, you want consistency from me now? You're a hard taskmistress :tears: Where's that :whip cracking smiliey: when you need it? :devil:

So I aim to take the initial concept, break it down into components, and see how I can adapt it.That's probably the way Amir has worked out the Jango moves in the first place, and I think taking elements and adapting them to suit your dancing will give the moves a unique flavour.

I personally feel that moves such as ochos can be quite difficult to lead unless the lady understands what she is expected to do or the lead is strong enough to *push* the lady in the right direction.:yeah: or like me saying 'Oh, I'm supposed to be doing ochos now aren't I?' :rofl: (At least I recognised what the lead was supposed to be, even if I was responsive enough to just follow.)

[Cruella]

:yeah: or like me saying 'Oh, I'm supposed to be doing ochos now aren't I?' :rofl: (At least I recognised what the lead was supposed to be, even if I was responsive enough to just follow.)
Sounds familiar :sick:

[Clive Long]

<< snip >>
'Oh, I'm supposed to be doing ochos now aren't I?' :rofl: (At least I recognised what the lead was supposed to be, even if I was responsive enough to just follow.)
OK. I think we can all do these and we can chuck them into "What Lola wants" or "Tango Baya- whatever" for a bit of Jango/MJ cross-over.

Ochoes, ochoes, let me see (consults little black book of indechiperable scrawls) ... ah, here we are.

Ochoes: entry into.

Notes I made. The standard (basic) Tango walk is where the man moves his leg (fwd, bkwd, side-ways) and the woman move her corresponding leg e.g man moves left leg fwd, woman moves right leg back (PC correction. Man=Leader. Woman=Follower. I'm not be sarcastic - it is just I can only think of man/woman in AT).

Now ... the "target" with ochoes is to move the "opposing" legs.

A simple (but not very stylish entry) is as follows

Man moves/slides L foot to L side. Woman moves corresponding R foot to her R side

Man rotates chest / frame ACW i.e L shoulder back R shoulder forward. This Rotates the woman for her to move backwards

Man slides R foot to touch his L foot. Woman slides her L foot to meet her R

Man does weight change and slides L foot out to L again

Woman continues moving L foot behind her.

Woman transfers weight to L foot. Man rotates her CW 180 degrees, pivoting on her L foot, and you are away.

Can someone try this and see if description is OK?


Clive

[David Bailey]

I personally feel that moves such as ochos can be quite difficult to lead unless the lady understands what she is expected to do or the lead is strong enough to *push* the lady in the right direction.
:eek:

If I pushed my follower into an ocho(e), or in fact any move, in an AT class, I'd probably get a Serious Look from the teacher, I can tell you. And it wouldn't be a Nice Look, I'm pretty sure of that.

From what I understand, Leading is connection, intention and invitation - the leader's left hand should actually be pretty irrelevant, almost decorative, in these situations.

Having said that, it's taken me 10+ years to start to grasp that concept... :sad:

[Mary]

:eek:


From what I understand, Leading is connection, intention and invitation - the leader's left hand should actually be pretty irrelevant, almost decorative, in these situations.




Yep. That's pretty much what I've gathered as well. I've also been taught giros, ganchos, sicadas and some other stuff with foreign sounding names I can't remember, but I've never been to an AT class. Placing your foot in the right place is one thing, but doing it with any kind style or technique is another - it's flippin' hard. But I think I may have picked up a few tid-bits on the way. :wink:

I'm just too big a wuss to try pure AT........ :sick:

M

[David Bailey]

I'm just too big a wuss to try pure AT........ :sick:
Join us, you know you want to... :hypnosis icon:

Seriously, you do have to feel quite confident to try AT - however, the stuff you learn at Jango classes should, I believe, transfer exactly over to AT, so you may have a headstart.

I did a couple of AT classes a few years ago, and it just didn't work for me at all then - I think you have to be in a certain mental place to want to do it first.

[Rhythm King]

Join us, you know you want to... :hypnosis icon:


A well known Jango Dodger said... :rolleyes:

[Dizzy]

:eek:

If I pushed my follower into an ocho(e), or in fact any move, in an AT class, I'd probably get a Serious Look from the teacher, I can tell you. And it wouldn't be a Nice Look, I'm pretty sure of that.


I'm sure and I agree with you but AT is a dance with particular moves and particular signals therefore the follower needs to know the moves and signals to dance it correctly, whereas the signals will be lost on the average MJ follower unless she is a dancer of either Jango or AT.

[JonD]

...AT is a dance with particular moves and particular signals therefore the follower needs to know the moves and signals to dance it correctly...
Sorry, but no - absolutely no! AT is pure lead and follow. Any movement can be interrupted in any moment in order to change it into something else. There is no figure which is "fixed" and simply triggered by a lead and no "signal" which can be used to trigger such a figure. Everything is led; everything is followed.

Dancing at a crowded milonga you quickly discover why this is so. You think that an MJ dance floor can get crowded? I've danced AT where my partner and I have had other couples almost touching our shoulders on all sides. You start to lead a step and someone else occupies that space so you change the step into something different. In those circumstances you dance with tiny movements, almost subconsciously aware of every movement around you; the good dancers take a brief opening in the space around them and do something beautiful. It's incredible. If you were restricted to "moves" you'd either "take out" swathes of dancers around you or be restricted to a slow walk. You only learn figures to discover possibilities, practice the grammar of the dance and work on technique - you don't dance them "as given".

The AT follower must work at understanding this grammar before she can follow. She must be familiar with the basic elements or the lead will mean nothing. That's part of the fascination of the dance; both leader and follower must strive to be expert in technique and grammar so that they can communicate using a vocabulary which is, in some circumstances, invented on the spot.


the leader's left hand should actually be pretty irrelevant, almost decorative, in these situations
The leaders left arm forms part of his frame and so assists in the lead - it provides stability, a little support and magnifies the movement of his centre but it is never used to "shove" independently of the centre by moving out of the frame. You can dance without it, and it is good to practice doing so, but in faster more open movements having a strong frame is almost essential. The leader may "step under" his frame in some movements, giving the impression that the left arm is being pulled back; what is happening in reality is that the frame is remaining in position for the lady but the leader is moving his body toward the follower under the frame and bending his own arm to achieve this. On a crowded floor there may not be space to leave your left arm extended so you may fold it in so that your hands are resting on the leader's left shoulder. That is a lovely feeling - a really intimate embrace. On a floor that crowded you aren't going to be doing anything fast and open - or at least I'm not - so I don't feel the loss of the frame.


{ocho stuff}Sounds about right Clive! Julie is a great one for writing stuff down too - We've got a whole file full of stuff we've never practiced!

[Lynn]

Dancing at a crowded milonga you quickly discover why this is so. You think that an MJ dance floor can get crowded? I've danced AT where my partner and I have had other couples almost touching our shoulders on all sides. You start to lead a step and someone else occupies that space so you change the step into something different. In those circumstances you dance with tiny movements, almost subconsciously aware of every movement around you; the good dancers take a brief opening in the space around them and do something beautiful. It's incredible. If you were restricted to "moves" you'd either "take out" swathes of dancers around you or be restricted to a slow walk. I'm aware that we are edging over from Jango into Tango here (not that I'm complaining :wink: ) but I have a question about this...(One I'm sure will be covered at some stage in class but I'm curious now.)

Jon, does this restricted space dancing apply to any walking moves where the follow is taking a step back? If it does, does the follow then take smaller steps and how is this led? If I understand correctly the follow should be stretching back and stepping out of the mans way when going back - but not just tiny steps. Or if there is someone behind the woman does the man just not lead any moves in that direction till they have moved well out of the way? (The latter makes most sense in my limited understanding of AT.)

(I like the sound of the having to change and adapt so much - it means you need great connection.:grin: )

[Lynn]

Ocho stuff The Lindy teacher was doing this last Mon night (we got talking about AT) - he changed to be on opposite feet then said 'now the lady does backward ochoes' but I had no idea how to do that without at least observing someone first. But I'll maybe see if I can work it out from what you have typed here and ask him to try again and see if I can make any more sense of it!

*sigh* Wish I had a regular AT partner to practise with - or even a Barbie and Ken! :wink:

[David Bailey]

I'm sure and I agree with you but AT is a dance with particular moves and particular signals therefore the follower needs to know the moves and signals to dance it correctly, whereas the signals will be lost on the average MJ follower unless she is a dancer of either Jango or AT.
Hmm, I dunno. I'd hope you're wrong - if you're right, it'd be a very limited set of people who could dance with me once I got the hang of it, and I'd like to be able to dance it with anyone ideally.

My feeling (hope) is that a "good enough" MJ follower, and a "good enough" AT / Jango leader, should be able to dance together to either style, or both, in the same dance. Of course, it'll probably take about 6 more years for me to get to "good enough" leading level, but hey, you've got to have a dream, right? :)


A well known Jango Dodger said... :rolleyes:
:confused: It's a weird kind of dodging that involves buying the DVD, starting this thread, posting a lot in this thread...

You reckon it's a double-bluff thing, then? Could be - I am very sneaky sometimes. :na:

[LMC]

Even after only one fix (does that make Jango worse than Class A drugs in addiction terms?) I'm a convert to Monday nights at Kent House. Fantastic teaching, fabulous music, wonderful dancers. Sorry folks, you're not going to get rid of me. How long will it be before DJ caves in to at least visiting as a one-off I wonder? :devil:

*wanders off, whistling theme to Invasion of the Bodysnatchers*

[Katie]

I'm sure and I agree with you but AT is a dance with particular moves and particular signals therefore the follower needs to know the moves and signals to dance it correctly, whereas the signals will be lost on the average MJ follower unless she is a dancer of either Jango or AT.

Dizzy, you need to dance with Amir and *feel* his body leads, and then you'll hopefully find yourself doing Jango/AT moves, without knowing the signals. If you start to think about what he's doing or the fact that it's *Amir* then you'll likely to miss the lead - It's not easy I know :rolleyes: .

[David Bailey]

Sorry, but no - absolutely no! AT is pure lead and follow. Any movement can be interrupted in any moment in order to change it into something else. There is no figure which is "fixed" and simply triggered by a lead and no "signal" which can be used to trigger such a figure. Everything is led; everything is followed.
Which is, to me, what makes it so intense - it forces you to lead / follow all the time. Until you do that, you don't realise how "lazy" most MJ dancing is, and how little attention most MJ-ers actually pay to their partners. At the moment, it almost feels like I'm holding my breath during each AT dance, with a big sigh of relaxation at the end. Good thing they only last a couple of minutes really :)

Anyway, yes, we're talking about Jango here.

So, my aim is that by introducing Jango/AT style, I'll lift the level of connection in my MJ - OK, not to AT levels, but at least to higher levels than push / pull. And that this lift won't restrict the number of dancers I can dance with, but will provide an extra dimension to my MJ, in the same way that (I think) my salsa did a few years (actually, quite a few years) back.


{ snip other stuff which I completely believe in, but am so far from comprehending during a dance that I can only go :worthy: }
:worthy:

:)

Oh, and as for:

How long will it be before DJ caves in to at least visiting as a one-off I wonder? :devil:
Nice... nice... only 6 hours to go... nice...

[Dizzy]

Sorry, but no - absolutely no! AT is pure lead and follow. Any movement can be interrupted in any moment in order to change it into something else. There is no figure which is "fixed" and simply triggered by a lead and no "signal" which can be used to trigger such a figure. Everything is led; everything is followed.


Ok, apologies if I am wrong :flower:. I have no experience of AT and how it is danced therefore I cannot comment on how it is danced but it is wonderful to look at :worthy: :worthy:.

The only experience I have had is doing Jango and even then, I am not that great at it :blush:.



Dizzy, you need to dance with Amir and *feel* his body leads, and then you'll hopefully find yourself doing Jango/AT moves, without knowing the signals. If you start to think about what he's doing or the fact that it's *Amir* then you'll likely to miss the lead - It's not easy I know .

I know but I am still no way good anough to appreciate that kind of dance with Amir yet. :worthy: :worthy:

[Minnie M]

.......I know but I am still no way good anough to appreciate that kind of dance with Amir yet. :worthy: :worthy:
- bad editing Dizzy - how confusing was that post - it should have been from Katie NOT Amir :rolleyes:

BTW Katie is an amazing dancer and looks good whatever and whoever she dances with :worthy:

[Lory]

- bad editing Dizzy -
I've sorted it! :)

[Minnie M]

I've sorted it! :)
Glad to see you are on the ball your highness - and you are on your own this week too :yeah:

[Dizzy]

- bad editing Dizzy - how confusing was that post - it should have been from Katie NOT Amir :rolleyes:


Oops. sorry :blush:. Thanks Minnie and Lory :blush:



BTW Katie is an amazing dancer and looks good whatever and whoever she dances with


:yeah:

[Lynn]

Which is, to me, what makes it so intense - it forces you to lead / follow all the time. Until you do that, you don't realise how "lazy" most MJ dancing is, and how little attention most MJ-ers actually pay to their partners. From the short exposure I have had to AT so far - connection is the thing that is standing out. I'm trying to work out the attraction of the dance for me and perhaps that is it?

So, my aim is that by introducing Jango/AT style, I'll lift the level of connection in my MJ - OK, not to AT levels, but at least to higher levels than push / pull. :yeah:

[Gadget]

Jon, does this restricted space dancing apply to any walking moves where the follow is taking a step back?
From the little Tango I've done; you don't lead the follower to take steps: you lead them to transfer weight -
The fact that you are moving at the time will determine any steps. The lead would be almost identical for a move where you remain in place as for one where you glide across the floor. The 'connection' is maintaining the distance and 'feel' of the dance.

IMHO of course. I've danced MJ/Salsa in such confinement.. lots of baskets, spot-turns and 'blusey' moves...:sigh::drool:

[JonD]

Sorry folks - I've turned into an AT evangelist! My very limited experience of Jango comes from over a year ago; Jango is obviously evolving every week so it's difficult for me to comment on it in any sensible way. However, Jango does seem to be based on the idea of teaching a finished "Jango move" rather than the elements of movement which create a shape.


Jon, does this restricted space dancing apply to any walking moves where the follow is taking a step back? If it does, does the follow then take smaller steps and how is this led?
I'm not qualified to answer - but that won't stop me!

From the little Tango I've done; you don't lead the follower to take steps: you lead them to transfer weight
I think that this is key. In AT you don't commit to a weight transfer as soon as you take a step. In MJ we tend to launch ourselves (albeit smoothly - well, in some cases) from one foot to the next. In AT you start the step but don't commit weight to the working (moving) leg until the leader decides to do so. Even the extent and speed with which the follower places her weight into the new standing leg can be controlled by the leader. The leader suggests the direction, speed and length of the step by the degree of "intention" that he creates for the step. So, in a crowded milonga you take care to create very controlled steps and not to commit the followers weight until you are sure that her standing leg is going to be clear of obstructions. (If I think about it I find it incredibly difficult and end up doing little more than a shuffling walk but, if you can clear your head and forget about the crowds, then it is possible to create some delightful little shapes even though you are hemmed in. That only happens to me once in a blue moon. Maybe in 10 years ......). So, yes - the follower is taking smaller steps if that is what is led. The steps have the same "quality" as a larger step though.

I've previously wittered on about how "quality of movement" is my current fascination and I'm sure that taking time to control a step is fundamental to achieving that. It sounds as if it's the kind of thing that Jango is encouraging which can only be a good thing. Where I used to "lurch" from one foot to the other I now try to step from my standing leg to my working leg in a much more controlled fashion - I think about the step itself rather than just arriving on the new leg. Try taking a simple walking step at half-tempo to a slow piece of music - keep the working leg moving smoothly all the way from the moment the weight comes off it to the point at which it receives your weight at the end of the step - no pauses as your legs pass each other. Control the weight shifts so you can feel the bones and muscles in your foot as they are released from your weight or receive it. "Push" the step from your standing leg rather than pulling yourself to the new leg and let your leg and your body arrive at the same time. I find all that so difficult! Who knows, one day I may be able to inject some "quality" when I'm moving relatively quickly in MJ - I'm sure it'll make a huge difference to my dancing.

[Lory]

Try taking a simple walking step at half-tempo to a slow piece of music - keep the working leg moving smoothly all the way from the moment the weight comes off it to the point at which it receives your weight at the end of the step - no pauses as your legs pass each other.
:cool: I've been told to pause each and time my legs pass each other and it's in this 'gathered' position that the follower should 'wait', until she feels a lead to do something else.

[JonD]

've been told to pause each and time my legs pass each other and it's in this 'gathered' position that the follower should 'wait',
I think that's right - I'm not a good follower and I'm certainly not a teacher. My understanding is that you "gather" at that point because the leader can change your direction anytime that your feet are together but that if the lead is continuous then the movement should be continuous and any "gather" imperceptible.

The exercise is really difficult if you try to keep the foot moving at the same speed throughout the step - it's much easier if you pause. I spent 90 minutes in a class with the late, great Carlos Gavito taking 4 steps forward and 4 steps back. Talk about a detailed analysis of the step and foot position - and I thought that I'd got this walking business sorted when I was about 2!

[Lynn]

Thanks Jon and Lory!

I guess a lot of that is stuff we will get to in class. I found it easiest to not actually think too much about what foot I was on, just to follow the lead.

[Gadget]

Control the weight shifts so you can feel the bones and muscles in your foot as they are released from your weight or receive it.I feel that... but it's little to do with control :tears:

[timbp]

I've just had the opportunity to view the Jango DVD.
And my first question is "Are we in Australia [Sydney] taught modern jive or jango?".

Because the moves on the DVD are moves I've been taught in class or have seen people doing in freestyle, or at least are things I've tried. For example, the DVD has Manhattan Traverse or something of some similar name. I will often use Manhattans to travel if I need to get to an area with more space, or just if I feel a girl is not following. I can't remember if I've been taught it in class, but I know I'm not the only person who does it in Sydney. (I also know the few girls who will follow it.)
The First Move variation on the DVD is commonly taught in Sydney.
And I'm sure I remember being taught the West Manhattan, although it might have been under a different name.

The big advantage of the DVD is learning how to lead these moves. Even though the moves are familiar, learning how the frame works to lead them is a major help. In fact, as I already know the moves and know the difficulty of leading them with ladies who don't know them, the technique tips are particularly useful.

I think every time on the DVD that Amir said "the most common problem is...", he answered the problem I'd been having.

So to those like DavidJames who are worried about continuity of changing from MJ to Jango, stop worrying. What you lead in MJ should relate to the music anyway, so you wouldn't lead some of the Jango moves to certain music. Apart from that, it's all modern jive with better technique (ie, Australian :wink: ) Smooth lead, footwork, be aware of your partner.

That's just my opinion after a quick viewing of the Jango DVD. If I receive better information I might change my opinion. What do you do when you receive better information?

[David Bailey]

So to those like DavidJames who are worried about continuity of changing from MJ to Jango, stop worrying.
Oh good. Whew.


What you lead in MJ should relate to the music anyway, so you wouldn't lead some of the Jango moves to certain music. Apart from that, it's all modern jive with better technique (ie, Australian :wink: )
Yep, I always suspected Amir was Australian really. Damn, what a fraud he is, pretending to invent a whole new style of dancing. Shocking. :whistle:

Seriously, I think it sounds like you're missing the point - it's not about the moves, they're just there to show you how to get into a Tango-like position. Yes, of course you can just treat them as "a new set of moves", and dance those moves in MJ, and they work fine of course.

But that's not the main thing. To me, the most important part is the stuff about the connection, the dissociation, the footwork in walking forward and back, the frame and so on. The moves give you help in reaching that point, but they're not the end point itself.

Sorry to whinge off, but I had a poor night last night, I think learning Argentine Tango is 3 steps forward, 2 steps back, and last night was a backward step :sad:

[ducasi]

Yep, I always suspected Amir was Australian really. And here I thought he was from New Zealand... :whistle:

I think that if all there was to Jango was on the (first) Jango DVD, timbp would have a point. But I think it's a bit like watching a few beginner Ceroc moves and declaring it's just Salsa with a step back between moves.

(EDIT: Here speaks the world authority on Jango – NOT! :rolleyes:)

[Zebra Woman]

But that's not the main thing. To me, the most important part is the stuff about the connection, the dissociation, the footwork in walking forward and back, the frame and so on. The moves give you help in reaching that point, but they're not the end point itself.

Agree. The problem I find is this. I am trying really hard to achieve an intense totally responsive connection all the time in MJ - so that when Jango/Tango moves are led there is no hesitation or anticipation I have simply followed the lead. But I'm just not making it. In real life if I'm just dancing MJ I don't seem to be able to stay deeply connected and responding to every nuance of the man's lead for every second of the dance the way that AT demands. I am not sure whether it's just me? Or is it because MJ doesn't need this kind of intense connection so why waste energy providing it?

My favourite dances are the ones that flit between MJ and AT. One of the main reasons I enjoy them is I find following AT for more than a few minutes very hot making and utterly exhausting (in a nice way) and the MJ phase of the dance gives me a chance to recompose myself for another stab at AT. I find that easier and more confidence inspiring than staying in AT mode for a whole dance which can get so demoralising if it goes awry. Obviously if the AT was all going swimmingly then hanging in there would be fab. That is the day I dream of....





Sorry to whinge off, but I had a poor night last night, I think learning Argentine Tango is 3 steps forward, 2 steps back, and last night was a backward step :sad:

Keep at it DJ, I think your new AT moves have certainly added a wonderful 3rd dimension to your MJ.

ZW

[timbp]

Seriously, I think it sounds like you're missing the point - it's not about the moves, they're just there to show you how to get into a Tango-like position. Yes, of course you can just treat them as "a new set of moves", and dance those moves in MJ, and they work fine of course. :

I hate this forum! (And probably all forums.)

All I was saying was the moves on the DVD are moves I've seen in class or freestyle, and the DVD taught me a lot about how to lead them. (Which I then incorporated into my understanding of how to lead other things.)

My impression from the DVD (which I accept may be a marketing ploy) was that what was taught on the DVD was not taught in general MJ classes. This my be true in the UK, but not in Sydney -- the moves are taught in Sydney; the techniques are mentioned but not described as well as in the DVD.

I don't see it as "a new set of moves", because I know the moves. It's how to lead those moves properly to make a smooth and sensual dance.


The moves aren’t tricky by themselves, but they do have very interesting possibilities for variations
Sorry. I took this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=194394&postcount=76)to mean you were interested in moves.


What I wrote in my previous post was not just a reaction to what I'd seen on the DVD (my initial reaction to the DVD was sent only to one person by google talk, and was along the lines of "these people can DANCE! Nicky and Robert aren't there yet"). I filtered my reaction according to what I'd read on this forum, and particularly on this thread.
I was trying to keep to the topic and respond to things brought up in the earlier discussion.


I've done some of the classes. They're a bit of a mixture. The straight MJ moves are pretty accessible, easy even, if you've been around for a while, and the ones with the Tango techniques woven in are difficult if you're not used to that sort of thing, which I'm not.
My view from the DVD: the moves are nothing special; the technique behind them is priceless.


That's kind of what I figured - it's move fusion rather than style fusion.
that's the obverse of what I see. On my viewing of the DVD, the moves are familiar (or easy extensions of what I know). What makes the DVD (and therefore Jango) so good is the style and technique behind it.


It gives you a flavour of what it's all about and shows you some of the tango-esque moves which Jango incorporates.
My point is these tango-esque moves are taught here; the DVD shows the technique behind them.



On the DVD we discuss various elements of style in the walk, frame and positioning.
This is what I saw in the DVD. If my initial post was too moves-oriented, it was because I saw that as the focus of the contributors to this thread.



i'd love to be led more into Jango moves, however I can only think of a handful of times when I have
So what are "Jango moves"? I'm saying most of the moves shown on the Jango DVD are taught in Sydney, but in normal classes we're not taught to lead them the way Amir teaches on the DVD. So when you come to Sydney and someone leads Manhattan Traverse, will you think Jango move, or Sydney ceroc move?


I'm wondering if anyone's found the transition between MJ and Jango (in a single dance) awkward? Because I can see dancing AT to, well, anything really. And I can see dancing Jango-style, which is kind of a modified AT, to certain tracks.

You're still seeing them as separate. I think you're missing the point. If your modern jive is as smooth and connected as your argentine tango, then it should all flow together according to what the music suggests.

What I said in my earlier post is that moves presented on the ceroc DVD are taught here in normal ceroc classes, so I don't see why there should be this distinction between MJ and AT moves -- you dance the moves that are appropriate to the music. Jango shows you how to combine move from two different styles of improvisational dance.

what I'm not sure about is whether it'd work to just throw in the occasional Jango / AT move, then go back to normal freestyle
Again, I think YOU'RE missing the point. (OK, you wrote that 10 days ago; maybe you've matured since then.)

[timbp]

I think that if all there was to Jango was on the (first) Jango DVD, timbp would have a point. But I think it's a bit like watching a few beginner Ceroc moves and declaring it's just Salsa with a step back between moves.

My earlier post must be the worst thing I've ever written (judged by success of communication with the intended readership).
Before I posted, I reread this thread, and found it full of cries of "how do we use Jango moves in MJ?", "is it awkward to combine MJ and Jango moves?".

My aim (poorly executed) was to indicate that there is no basic incompatibility in the moves; the difference (as I see it) is in the style and the technique. My supporting evidence for stating there is no basic incompatibility in the moves was that the moves on the DVD have been taught in standard classes here.

I apologise for my poor communication skills.


I think that if all there was to Jango was on the (first) Jango DVD, timbp would have a point. But I think it's a bit like watching a few beginner Ceroc moves and declaring it's just Salsa with a step back between moves
At least I watched the DVD. My impression (I can't be bothered searching for supporting quotes) is that others have written about Jango without seeing the DVD or attending a class.

[David Bailey]

I hate this forum! (And probably all forums.)
At the moment, I hate everyone, so you're doing better than me.


All I was saying was the moves on the DVD are moves I've seen in class or freestyle, and the DVD taught me a lot about how to lead them. (Which I then incorporated into my understanding of how to lead other things.)
Apologies if I misunderstood. :flower: (in a manly way)


My impression from the DVD (which I accept may be a marketing ploy) was that what was taught on the DVD was not taught in general MJ classes. This my be true in the UK, but not in Sydney -- the moves are taught in Sydney; the techniques are mentioned but not described as well as in the DVD.
Manhattans are pretty common, and variation on them - sometimes they're called Mambos in classes here. They're not really (in my amateur opinion) very Tango-y, as I don't think you tend to go back and forward like that in tango - but of course, you do in salsa, especially NY style salsa.

However, I've never seen neckbreak ochos being taught in a standard MJ class. And I've only ever seen backward ochos taught twice in the past few years in a Ceroc class - both times with a good teacher and demo (don't let it go to your head, Mr Ass). Similarly, it's rare to be shown, for example, two continuous backwards steps (for the follower) - or forward steps for that matter. We did a routine in the Finchley class like that last night, with two forward steps for the follower - but again, it's rare in all Ceroc classes.

So I'm impressed if back ochos, neckbreak ochos, and several-step-back moves are being taught regularly in standard MJ classes in Australia, they're damned difficult. :worthy:


Sorry. I took this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=194394&postcount=76)to mean you were interested in moves.
Ah, but if you look at this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7480), you'll see I'm aiming for "No moves" :)

Apologies if my review was misleading - for the record, what I found most interesting was the talk about style, footwork, and transition. The moves were useful, but I'll break them down and play with the components I like, rather than just import them into my dancing.


My view from the DVD: the moves are nothing special; the technique behind them is priceless.
Yep - although there's some useful components or concepts behind the moves - for example, I'd never thought of leading a neckbreak ocho before.


If your modern jive is as smooth and connected as your argentine tango, then it should all flow together according to what the music suggests.
I think it's more a case of "if my AT is as smooth as my MJ" at the moment :sad:

[timbp]

So I'm impressed if back ochos, neckbreak ochos, and several-step-back moves are being taught regularly in standard MJ classes in Australia, they're damned difficult. :worthy:

Well, sometime recently (I can't remember when) we had a class that taught forward ochos, check, backward ochos (and then some exit). I haven't tried it in freestyle because I believe it's not something I could lead with the people I usually dance with. But IT WAS TAUGHT!

Neckbreak ochos I haven't seen.
(Thinking further, the concept of ochos with the woman facing away from the man doesn't surprise me. But I don't recall being taught to lead ochos in MJ. They are generally taught as something for the woman to do when the man gives her space and time.)

We have done neckbreak into walk, sway into walk, manhattan into walk and other moves in which we travel (although I think all were a forward walk for the man). And I find these very difficult to lead in freestyle -- the women always expect to stop after one step. It's such a wonderful feeling to find a woman who just follows whatever number of steps I lead (and changes of direction).


Is this a good time to admit I was thinking mainly of the gateway moves in my earlier post? The First Move variation is common, manhattans are common. I don't think the half return is taught as a separate move, but I can think of a couple of moves where that is the beginning.


My earlier post was intended to convey "I know that move; I want to learn how to do it like that."


Also, I watched the DVD and then posted my first impressions with regard to my impressions of others' responses gathered from this thread. I haven't yet tried anything on the DVD with a partner (or even by myself).

[M'lijn]

Neckbreak ochos I haven't seen.
(Thinking further, the concept of ochos with the woman facing away from the man doesn't surprise me. But I don't recall being taught to lead ochos in MJ. They are generally taught as something for the woman to do when the man gives her space and time.)

I have to agree on this one, though I have to admit it took me a while to realise that what we were doing was in fact called ochos... :blush:


We have done neckbreak into walk, sway into walk, manhattan into walk and other moves in which we travel (although I think all were a forward walk for the man). And I find these very difficult to lead in freestyle -- the women always expect to stop after one step. It's such a wonderful feeling to find a woman who just follows whatever number of steps I lead (and changes of direction).

We ( MJ Adelaide ) have been taught walks in both directions and from different moves ( so timbp might want to come over and try our ladies out as they should be able to follow, no matter how many steps you want to go forward or backward... :wink: ). Some of those were taught with rondes or ochos.

[David Bailey]

Oops, missed this the last time round...


Well, sometime recently (I can't remember when) we had a class that taught forward ochos, check, backward ochos (and then some exit). I haven't tried it in freestyle because I believe it's not something I could lead with the people I usually dance with. But IT WAS TAUGHT!
Excellent - that sounds like a typical Tango thing, I usually do that (forward -> switch -> backward). OK, fair enough, it's very basic Tango (it must be if I can do it :) ), but learning to lead (and follow) the switch part is a very good exercise.


Thinking further, the concept of ochos with the woman facing away from the man doesn't surprise me.
Surprised the heck out of me, but then I have no imagination; until I'm shown a new concept I don't generally think about it much.


But I don't recall being taught to lead ochos in MJ. They are generally taught as something for the woman to do when the man gives her space and time.)
I know what you mean, but I would class these as "twists" more than ochos - the general movement is related, but the speed and the footwork is different. For example, it's very difficult to lead from "forward twists" into "backward twists", because of the speed they're done, and because they're not typically taught with a pause when the follower's feet come together - that pause is the bit where you can lead the switchover.


We have done neckbreak into walk, sway into walk, manhattan into walk and other moves in which we travel (although I think all were a forward walk for the man). And I find these very difficult to lead in freestyle -- the women always expect to stop after one step. It's such a wonderful feeling to find a woman who just follows whatever number of steps I lead (and changes of direction).
:yeah: Absolutely - and it shows how conditioned most followers are by standard MJ, that they'll find it very difficult to follow a lead of two steps back.

Of course, once you've got them used to that, you then take it up a level by varying the speed of the steps - e.g. quick-quick-slow. That is more difficult to lead, requires more focus from the follower - but it's superb for musical interpretation purposes. And it keeps the followers on their toes :devil:


Some of those were taught with rondes or ochos.
Interesting - how do you lead (or follow) a ronde? I assumed it was a decoration move - i.e. something the leader or follower puts in at their own discretion?

[Andreas]

I used to teach forewards ochos facing the lead and facing away in NZ. The main reason for this was because quite a few of girls attempted them but extremely few only appeared to grasp the content of closing the feet at the turning point.

Regarding the Jango DVD. I looked through it the other day. A lot of it is very close to NZ teaching (content) of MJ. Mind you, that is where Amir learnt, so it is just a natural reflection. :flower:

[David Bailey]

I used to teach forewards ochos facing the lead and facing away in NZ. The main reason for this was because quite a few of girls attempted them but extremely few only appeared to grasp the content of closing the feet at the turning point.
See, they should spend an hour doing only ochos - even I got the hang of it at the end :)


Regarding the Jango DVD. I looked through it the other day. A lot of it is very close to NZ teaching (content) of MJ. Mind you, that is where Amir learnt, so it is just a natural reflection. :flower:
Hmmm, maybe this answers the "What is NZ style?" question...

[Andreas]

See, they should spend an hour doing only ochos - even I got the hang of it at the end :)
You should see people's faces when I tell them to practice Rumba walks for competition prep (or even in general)! Practicing ochos for an hour is just as much a killer :D


Hmmm, maybe this answers the "What is NZ style?" question...
In a way it possibly does. Amir's style is very NZ, movement from the knees just as much as arm and leg lines.

[ducasi]

Apropos of not much at all, I'm currently watching a really bad Spaghetti Western on ITV4 called "Django" (pronounced "Jango").

Just thought you'd all like to know... :nice:

[Whitebeard]

Apropos of not much at all, I'm currently watching a really bad Spaghetti Western on ITV4 called "Django" (pronounced "Jango").

Just thought you'd all like to know... :nice:

I note that you're multitasking ;-)

[Rhythm King]

Apropos of not much at all, I'm currently watching a really bad Spaghetti Western on ITV4 called "Django" (pronounced "Jango").

Just thought you'd all like to know... :nice:

If it had been called "Jango", then of course there wouldn't have been any spaghetti involved, just a perfect frame :whistle:

[David Bailey]

Given the "Is Jango MJ" discussion on the "Competitions" thread, I thought I'd recycle this one and hopefully move the discussion here:

Re: "Is Jango MJ?":

At more than one of the Jango workshops I have attended Amir has talked about the timing not being fixed (being 'elastic' could be one way to look at it). Indeed he was gently mocking of a number of people at one workshop who couldn't grasp the slow, slow, quick, quick pattern he was demonstrating. The fact that many people then dance their Jango steps to fixed timing doesn't mean that Jango itself is bound by that
Just because Jango has more flexibility about timing, doesn't mean it isn't bound by that timing. You can pause and slow-down / speed up in normal MJ, after all.


I'm with you here. I'm not experienced enough to know the answers to some of these questions! But in this case I would have assumed that Jango might not qualify as MJ in a competition. I've heard Amir teach "now here are some jive moves to get in the modern jive element", as if he was trying to make it just about enough to be considered MJ.
Those (very) few people I've actually seen / talked to, who do dance Jango - and we're talking less than 10 couples in the UK I reckon - do it to an underlying MJ rhythm. Also, it's non-progressive, and the frame is variable. So I'd say it's much more MJ-y than AT-y.

(I'll probably be talking to myself here - as most of the Jango-istas have decamped to MJDA - but that's nothing new)

[Ghost]

(I'll probably be talking to myself here - as most of the Jango-istas have decamped to MJDA - but that's nothing new)
It's the only way to get a decent conversation :wink:

I'd agree with what you said though. I don't know if there's a rule book of "allowed" Ceroc moves, but given that teachers (and dancers) seem to be making up new ones on a fairly regular basis, I don't see why Jango moves shouldn't count.

Be Well,
Christopher

[David Bailey]

Hmmm, whilst looking for something else, I dug up this post:

What I'm interested to know is that when you do have another few months of AT under your belt and are looking for partners who can follow your fusion lead, where exactly are you going to find them? :devil:

and:

I was asking DJ about followers who were able to follow a good lead into any move, rather than having prior knowledge of particular moves. My understanding (from talking to leaders) is that not all women are able to follow well - and those who have only experienced a "traditional" or "conventional" lead may take some time to happily adapt to a leader who may take them into moves they don't know. I'm really talking about followers who have learned good following skills.

I can now say, a couple of years on, that I'm reasonably confident in taking any "intermediate" or better follower into a tango track at a MJ venue, even if she's not done AT, and have a good dance.

A year ago, I think I could only have said this about the very top MJ dancers, or MJ dancers who'd done some tango. So I think my lead-to-MJ-ers is clearly improving, and the number of people I have available to dance with in MJ for an AT track is also increasing.

Therefore, I'm reasonably confident that, given time, and assuming I carry on with MJ, then I'll be able to lead more and more dancers into an AT dance at a MJ venue. Eventually, it's possibly that I may be able to lead anyone into AT, even MJ beginners, given the right music.

[Sugarfoot]

Hmmm, whilst looking for something else, I dug up this post:


and:


I can now say, a couple of years on, that I'm reasonably confident in taking any "intermediate" or better follower into a tango track at a MJ venue, even if she's not done AT, and have a good dance.

A year ago, I think I could only have said this about the very top MJ dancers, or MJ dancers who'd done some tango. So I think my lead-to-MJ-ers is clearly improving, and the number of people I have available to dance with in MJ for an AT track is also increasing.

Therefore, I'm reasonably confident that, given time, and assuming I carry on with MJ, then I'll be able to lead more and more dancers into an AT dance at a MJ venue. Eventually, it's possibly that I may be able to lead anyone into AT, even MJ beginners, given the right music.

Ah...you are getting it Dave. Like you I started putting AT into my jive at an early stage. It has been a constant improving challenge. I learnt to adjust my AT to make the lead clearer without falling into the trap of leading with my arms. There is often a difference between a good MJ follower and a good follower. I have often found that it has taken longer to connect with good MJ's because they are used to showing you what they can do. This is not a problem, it just takes perseverance. The great thing is that this has actually improved my AT. The bottom line is that it takes confidence and attitude. With this you can assert your energy and integrity into the dance.



Shall we bring our supermarket practice trolleys to Southport and do a joint novel cabaret? :rofl:

[David Bailey]

There is often a difference between a good MJ follower and a good follower.
Mmm, not sure about that one.

I've found that getting MJ followers to do Tango really highlights that follower's following ability - there's no hiding behind fancy tricks and styling, which I think a lot of followers do in MJ.

So I've found it's a great way of assessing someone's ability to follow - and I've been surprised on a few occasions (both pleasantly and otherwise) when I've found that I've mis-judged their ability when dancing MJ with them.


Shall we bring our supermarket practice trolleys to Southport and do a joint novel cabaret? :rofl:
At this rate we may have to... :rolleyes:

[robd]

I've found that getting MJ followers to do Tango really highlights that follower's following ability - there's no hiding behind fancy tricks and styling, which I think a lot of followers do in MJ.

So I've found it's a great way of assessing someone's ability to follow - and I've been surprised on a few occasions (both pleasantly and otherwise) when I've found that I've mis-judged their ability when dancing MJ with them.


Comes across as a wee bit superior Mr DJ. Surely a follower's ability to follow is dependent to a great extent on the quality of the lead given? Maybe the 'fancy tricks and styling' have their roots in frustration at the paucity of some leads?

[David Bailey]

Comes across as a wee bit superior Mr DJ.
Well, I am superior, so there you go :na:

Seriously, what I was talking about was the dance form, not anyone's ability. Tango makes it easier (for me) to assess a partner's following ability.

It's been lovely to find out that some followers are better at following than I'd thought - and to confirm that some top-notch dancers are indeed top-notch. It's also been occasionally apparent that some followers are not quite so good as they may appear.

Tango's just a tool - but it's a more accurate one IMO than MJ.


Surely a follower's ability to follow is dependent to a great extent on the quality of the lead given? Maybe the 'fancy tricks and styling' have their roots in frustration at the paucity of some leads?
Unlikely - I seriously doubt my AT lead is better than my MJ lead.

The follower's ability to have a good dance is mainly dependent on the quality of the lead.

The follower's ability to follow is mainly dependent on the follower's ability to follow. There's a difference.

[ElaineB]

The follower's ability to have a good dance is mainly dependent on the quality of the lead.

The follower's ability to follow is mainly dependent on the follower's ability to follow. There's a difference.

Mostly true, but when a lead seriously doesn't have a clue where his partners weight is and either chucks the follower about, or seems not to wait for their partner to complete what they have lead before leading the next move, it can be very difficult to follow. I have been placed or have won numerous DWAS competitions (thanks partners!), so I can follow, but believe me, there are times when it can be nigh on impossible! :sick:


Elaine