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stewart38
22nd-December-2005, 10:43 AM
Ceroc went from £6 to £7 last year and looks like going from £7 to £8 early next year

Thats a 33% increase in just over a year :sad:

Lets hope the 'ceroc model' has thought this through :sad:

Andy McGregor
22nd-December-2005, 12:06 PM
Ceroc went from £6 to £7 last year and looks like going from £7 to £8 early next year

Thats a 33% increase in just over a year :sad:

Lets hope the 'ceroc model' has thought this through :sad:What is the evidence for this impending increase?

My own pricing is related to a night at the pictures - which I think is the kind of thing we're really competing with on price - not the dance class down the road. Currently it costs about £6.40 for adults and £4.50 for students and seniors to go to a movie. To charge more than this seems to me to be expensive and must seem that way to customers.

If the price of Ceroc goes up to £8 I recommend you see Harry Potter :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 12:13 PM
What is the evidence for this impending increase?

My own pricing is related to a night at the pictures - which I think is the kind of thing we're really competing with on price - not the dance class down the road. Currently it costs about £6.40 for adults and £4.50 for students and seniors to go to a movie. To charge more than this seems to me to be expensive and must seem that way to customers.

If the price of Ceroc goes up to £8 I recommend you see Harry Potter :devil:The nearest cinemas around here are all £8.50 plus for a ticket. A film is two hours or less, and add in ice cream (or the product with the highest retail markup in the entire universe - popcorn) and a drink of post-mix fizzy sugar-water and you're looking at £12-15. If you think Ashtons should be burnt for flogging water at £1 per pint then try your local cinema for "rip-off".

LMC
22nd-December-2005, 12:25 PM
If you think Ashtons should be burnt for flogging water at £1 per pint then try your local cinema for "rip-off".
Or live out of London (£6.70 for a film at my local) and wear something with large pockets which enables you to smuggle in peanuts and a bottle of water.

For me, 8 quid still represents good value for two lessons and at least 1.5 h dancing - it's still a cheap night out. However, the point about the percentage price increase is a valid one - when inflation has been only 2% for the last couple of years how can a 33% rise over the same period be justified? - that's not intended to be a leading question, I genuinely want to know how the service to punters has changed (presumably, at least in the eyes of Ceroc "improved").

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 12:46 PM
For me, 8 quid still represents good value for two lessons and at least 1.5 h dancing - it's still a cheap night out. However, the point about the percentage price increase is a valid one - when inflation has been only 2% for the last couple of years how can a 33% rise over the same period be justified? - that's not intended to be a leading question, I genuinely want to know how the service to punters has changed (presumably, at least in the eyes of Ceroc "improved").Fallacy to assume that the RPI has any relevance. It's an average, taken over a whole range of goods and services. If you *do* want to make a sensible case instead of just having a moan, go do some research on the actual price of the overheads involved in running a dance night - hall hire, DJ costs, equipment costs, insurance, staff etc. Then tell us if those have gone up over the last year, and how much by.
Or live out of LondonNo thanks!

killingtime
22nd-December-2005, 12:49 PM
I don't know of any such rises planned up here. We are currently at £6 in Edinburgh. Which I think is reasonable.

LMC
22nd-December-2005, 12:55 PM
I'm the customer which in my opinion means it's kind of their job to tell me that the cost of venues, insurance, staff, whatever have gone up? What I would be interested in (and will try to find out) is how much goes to the franchisee. I seem to remember hearing that Ashtons runs at a loss at £7/night and I'm not surprised. But I'd be very surprised if Finchley is running at a loss, unless Ceroc HQ is taking a really huge chunk.

As I said, 8 quid is still good value AFAIAC and it won't stop me dancing. Especially if I can still buy 11 Admit Ones for 50 quid at Stevenage which I can then also use at Finchley :innocent:

philsmove
22nd-December-2005, 01:25 PM
They are simply supplying you with evidence you need a 33% pay rise

DavidY
22nd-December-2005, 01:32 PM
Especially if I can still buy 11 Admit Ones for 50 quid at Stevenage which I can then also use at Finchley :innocent:I thought the National Admit One system was ending at the end of 2005.

Certainly in Ceroc Central there are now Ceroc Central-only Admit Ones, and we've been told the old National Admit Ones won't be valid within Ceroc Central after the end of the year.

I thought this applied across the UK? :confused:

JonD
22nd-December-2005, 01:43 PM
If you *do* want to make a sensible case instead of just having a moan, go do some research on the actual price of the overheads involved in running a dance night - hall hire, DJ costs, equipment costs, insurance, staff etc.
Increases in the minimum wage have been a hell of a lot more than RPI over the last year or so. Most catering staff, cleaning staff etc. would be on or close to minimum wage so the cost of running events will have increased quite a lot. New regulations relating to the provision of trained security staff must have had an impact. Insurance costs have also increased considerably.

I'm amazed at the low perceived value of a MJ night. We pay £5 down here - you'd pay the same to just get into a "nightclub" (yuk) and as much for a couple of pints of beer in a normal pub. By comparison, a 3 hour MJ night with 2 lessons seems incredible value for money.

LMC
22nd-December-2005, 01:45 PM
My Admit Ones are only valid within cerocmetro (i.e.are not national). So long may the discounts continue :fingers crossed:

ducasi
22nd-December-2005, 01:46 PM
The thing about the cinema is that they don't expect you to go 2-3 times a week, but if you do you can usually buy an annual pass that costs about the same per month as two visits.

Don't think Ceroc would do this though...

David Bailey
22nd-December-2005, 02:07 PM
I agree the cinema "experience" is a total rip-off, mainly because the add-ons are so flipping expensive. And I agree that £8 is still good value compared to a cinema - but then, I'm not sure if that's a valid comparison unless you're competing in that market? I mean, you could also compare with a trip to a football match - and it's get-a-second-mortgage-time levels of cost there.

To me, the competition and the comparisons should be with other MJ venues, and with other non-MJ dance venues (salsa, tango, etc.).

Based on that, £8 is probably on the steep end of the curve for such venues, I think the average salsa venue is around £6-£7 where I am. But it's not hugely more expensive, so I doubt it'll lose many converts.

And in a sense, you're giving Taxi dancers a £1 a week pay rise there :innocent:

Franck
22nd-December-2005, 02:18 PM
I don't know of any such rises planned up here. We are currently at £6 in Edinburgh. Which I think is reasonable.
Prices in Scotland will rise in the New Year to £7.00 per night (concessions will remain at £5.00).
The last price increase was 3 years ago and reflects a general increase in costs across the board.

To offset the initial increase, we will be having a January SALE, with books of ten Admit Ones selling for £50.00 (a saving of £20.00 on 10 regular admissions).

Prices as of January 2006 will be as follows:

Regular Class Nights

Normal Entry Price £ 7.00
Concessions £ 5.00
Freestyle £ 4.00
Books of Ten* £ 60.00 (excluding Sale period for January 06)

Regular Monthly Freestyle nights will be £8.00

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 02:23 PM
Increases in the minimum wage have been a hell of a lot more than RPI over the last year or so. Most catering staff, cleaning staff etc. would be on or close to minimum wage so the cost of running events will have increased quite a lot. New regulations relating to the provision of trained security staff must have had an impact. Insurance costs have also increased considerably.

I'm amazed at the low perceived value of a MJ night. We pay £5 down here - you'd pay the same to just get into a "nightclub" (yuk) and as much for a couple of pints of beer in a normal pub. By comparison, a 3 hour MJ night with 2 lessons seems incredible value for money.£5 to get into a nightclub? More like £10 or £15, or £20 - if they let you in

Russell Saxby
22nd-December-2005, 02:23 PM
Ceroc went from £6 to £7 last year and looks like going from £7 to £8 early next year

Thats a 33% increase in just over a year :sad:

Lets hope the 'ceroc model' has thought this through :sad:

I see Franck has already replied.... but to add my two pennies worth, this does not apply to all franchises, and certainly not at Greenwich.. currently £6 going up to £7 in the New Year.

Merry Xmas one an all

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 02:24 PM
The thing about the cinema is that they don't expect you to go 2-3 times a week, but if you do you can usually buy an annual pass that costs about the same per month as two visits.

Don't think Ceroc would do this though...Ceroc Metro did (still do?) a gold card annual pass.

killingtime
22nd-December-2005, 02:24 PM
Prices in Scotland will rise in the New Year to £7.00 per night (concessions will remain at £5.00).

I stand corrected :D :o.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 02:25 PM
I'm the customer which in my opinion means it's kind of their job to tell me that the cost of venues, insurance, staff, whatever have gone up?I think, that by increasing the price, that's exactly what they are telling you. Only you're not listening.

ducasi
22nd-December-2005, 02:39 PM
Ceroc Metro did (still do?) a gold card annual pass.
Bet it costs more than my annual pass for UGC/cineworld.

LMC
22nd-December-2005, 02:39 PM
I think, that by increasing the price, that's exactly what they are telling you. Only you're not listening.
No, they are not telling me, because there doesn't appear to be any specific information. Since I have said at least twice that I think 8 quid still represents good value for money, I am beginning to feel that you are picking on me.

As a starter for ten, I would love to know whether the 33% increase actually goes to the franchisees, who seem to be responsible for "everything" or will just be added to Ceroc's profit margin.

I have PM'd Adam with some questions, which I will not post here as although I have not asked him for specific numbers (none of my business) they may still be considered over-nosy. Although I have tried to be careful not to be rude. I have asked him to post on here *if* he is happy to answer.

JonD makes a good point about minimum wage, which I hadn't considered.

However, it still seems a bit ludicrous to me that Ashtons (purpose built, top-class venue) costs the same to get in as a church hall with cans laid out on a wobbly table. I hate paying a quid a pint for warm water at Ashtons - but would quite happily pay £12-£15 for a freestyle. Yes this is illogical. That's because last time I looked, I bore a passing resemblance to a human being.

Although the responsibility for venue, DJ, staff hire may be left to franchises, their hands are tied on pricing. What service are the franchises actually getting for the cash they will be paying Ceroc HQ for use of the brand? Do the franchisees feel that they are getting value for money?

Andy McGregor
22nd-December-2005, 02:47 PM
I think, that by increasing the price, that's exactly what they are telling you. Only you're not listening.Is somebody posting for ESG? He's normally so much more right/less wrong :wink:

By telling you that they're increasing the price Ceroc are telling you that the price has gone up. They're not telling you anything about their costs, so it not "exactly what they're telling you" at all. But that may be what some people will guess - others might guess that Ceroc HQ want more money, others might guess that the franchisee want to make more profit, others might just cough up and guess nothing - I guess :confused:

mooncalf
22nd-December-2005, 02:50 PM
Is somebody posting for ESG? He's normally so much more right/less wrong :wink:

By telling you that they're increasing the price Ceroc are telling you that the price has gone up. They're not telling you anything about their costs, so it not "exactly what they're telling you" at all. But that may be what some people will guess - others might guess that Ceroc HQ want more money, others might guess that the franchisee want to make more profit, others might just cough up and guess nothing - I guess :confused:

maybe it was all engineered to create an argument on a quiet day on the forum

LordOfTheFiles
22nd-December-2005, 03:02 PM
maybe it was all engineered to create an argument on a quiet day on the forum

That put an end to that argument. You are quite some guy Mooncalf

ToeTrampler
22nd-December-2005, 03:05 PM
...a 33% increase...
I get fed up with percentages being used in sensationalist meaningless ways; we know how much a one or two pound increase is, it doesn't require a pie chart to help us get a real handle on it.
Just thought I'd get that off my chest and save on some therapy bills (probably a saving of around 12.7% if your interested :wink: )

stewart38
22nd-December-2005, 03:42 PM
I get fed up with percentages being used in sensationalist meaningless ways; we know how much a one or two pound increase is, it doesn't require a pie chart to help us get a real handle on it.
Just thought I'd get that off my chest and save on some therapy bills (probably a saving of around 12.7% if your interested :wink: )


Thats the whole points it is a 33% rise since dec 2004

Insurance costs are down 25% from 2 years ago

I also see the loyality card is being taken away in my area

Its not 'meaningless' to look a percentage increases

I still think £8 is just about ok but if they sound/lighting/ or other things go wrong they must get less latitude

David Bailey
22nd-December-2005, 03:56 PM
Bet it costs more than my annual pass for UGC/cineworld.
Err, dunno. I think it was about £500 a year? Something like that.

But agin, it's not a valid comparison. Cinema tickets themselves generate little revenue, the real profit from mulitplexes comes from flogging those supersized popcorn buckets to teenagers. Which is why the cinemas want you to come as many times as possible, in the same way that a restaurant wants you to come as many times as possible.

Whereas it's very possible to have a great time at at Ceroc venue by just paying the entrance fee and little or nothing else all night long.

So for a valid comparison, you'd have to compare a "free entry plus free drink and food" cinema ticket with a Ceroc ticket. And if you go, say, 10 times a month to Ceroc, £500 a year was not too bad. Plus you got a cool card I believe.


Is somebody posting for ESG?
He's a mouthpiece too... They're taking over! It's the Revenge Of The Mouthpieces :eek:

Russell Saxby
22nd-December-2005, 04:07 PM
their hands are tied on pricing ?

well I am typing so I guess my hands are not tied


What service are the franchises actually getting for the cash they will be paying Ceroc HQ for use of the brand? Do the franchisees feel that they are getting value for money?

As far as I am concerned that is none of your business :flower:

CJ
22nd-December-2005, 04:13 PM
He's a mouthpiece too... They're taking over! It's the Revenge Of The Mouthpieces :eek:

Well that beats "Revenge of the Codpieces" which was last years hoax thread!!

killingtime
22nd-December-2005, 04:14 PM
Err, dunno. I think it was about £500 a year? Something like that.

Now that's something I'd totally go for :D.

CJ
22nd-December-2005, 04:16 PM
That's because last time I looked, I bore a passing resemblance to a human being.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

When was the last time you looked?!?:confused: :confused:

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 04:24 PM
I don't think I've ever read quite such an idle, ill-informed, speculative, gossipful, mean-spirited, and meritless thread on this forum.
He's a mouthpiece tooNo, just an ass. But still happy to point out the obvious.

CJ
22nd-December-2005, 04:28 PM
I don't think I've ever read quite such an idle, ill-informed, speculative, gossipful, mean-spirited, and meritless thread on this forum.

Bejeesus, ESG:

Do you never read anything on here?!?

LMC
22nd-December-2005, 04:32 PM
The second question Russell quoted is absolutely none of my business and I wouldn't seriously expect anyone to answer it, especially not in public! (but it was worth a try, Gus might see it :D ) The first question is really about the split between HQ and franchisees in non-monetary terms - i.e. who is responsible for insurance, teacher training costs, do venues and DJs have to be approved by HQ (for insurance and/or quality purposes).

I suspect that venue hire is by far the largest cost and hire charges vary so widely (let alone by location) that it would be logical to expect variance in entry prices. The more costs that are centralised, the less room for variance on pricing round the country, obviously - which is why I was interested in responsibilities.

Not only is it none of my business how much franchisees are making out of their business, I really don't care (except inasmuch as I hope you're all being successful etc.) What I would resent is Ceroc HQ making a huge fat bottom line profit by raising prices way above inflation - taking advantage of what is effectively a monopoly position.

None of this would stop me going of course. But it would be nice to know if those of us who are complaining are justified or not :D

stewart38
22nd-December-2005, 04:36 PM
By telling you that they're increasing the price Ceroc are telling you that the price has gone up. They're not telling you anything about their costs, Actually its me telling people based on what i was told but that wasnt from the oracle. :whistle:

LMC
22nd-December-2005, 04:46 PM
aaaagh, I take it all back then.

Note to self: never believe anything you read on the internet :rolleyes:

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 04:48 PM
Not only is it none of my business how much franchisees are making out of their business, I really don't care (except inasmuch as I hope you're all being successful etc.) What I would resent is Ceroc HQ making a huge fat bottom line profit by raising prices way above inflation - taking advantage of what is effectively a monopoly position.What business is it of *yours* who makes what profit (if any) out of Ceroc? And is there anyone else you'd like to accuse of abusing a monopoly position and making 'fat profits' - preferably someone you've equally littke knowledge of - while we're on the subject?

LMC
22nd-December-2005, 04:54 PM
Since it's privately owned, none at all.

But as a customer, I'm interested from the POV of sustainability (yeah yeah, I know, probably not an issue with Ceroc, it'll be around for a while) and whether there is likely to be further investment - more venues, workshops, weekenders, etc. etc.

And as a bleedin' 'eart liberal, I think it's morally wrong to be making a huge fat profit "just because you can". Possibly I think that way because "I can't", but I'm not claiming the moral high ground here, just being nosy.

stewart38
22nd-December-2005, 04:55 PM
How do you get to 810 rep points with this



What business is it of *yours* who makes what profit (if any) out of Ceroc? And is there anyone else you'd like to accuse of abusing a monopoly position and making 'fat profits' - preferably someone you've equally littke knowledge of - while we're on the subject?


I don't think I've ever read quite such an idle, ill-informed, speculative, gossipful, mean-spirited, and meritless thread on this forum.

I post like that and i get -ve rep (ps I dont agree with it )

:worthy: :worthy:

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 04:57 PM
But as a customer, I'm interested from the POV of sustainabilityIn that case, pretend that without a price increase, Ceroc is economically unsustainable and unable to meet its cash-flow requirements and provide a return for those people who work at it full time.

Happy?

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 04:58 PM
How do you get to 810 rep points with this

I post like that and i get -ve rep (ps I dont agree with it )

:worthy: :worthy:It's all in the punctuation. Use some.

stewart38
22nd-December-2005, 05:01 PM
It's all in the punctuation. Use some.


Had to rep that

The sixth shieks sixth sheeps sick :what:

LMC
22nd-December-2005, 05:08 PM
Of course prices go up. But I don't think it's unreasonable of a customer to wonder why the prices should go up by five or six times the rate of inflation (CPI 2.1%).

This thread is also turning into a circular argument and since the price rise is unsubstantiated, pointless. Of course, that's what makes most arguments on here fun, but since ESG seems more interested in exposing my stupidity and inconsistency, I'm not having fun any more.

I freely admit that I can sometimes be stupid and frequently inconsistent and would also like to apologise for any offence that I may have inadvertently caused by my curiosity.

doc martin
22nd-December-2005, 05:33 PM
Had to rep that

The sixth shieks sixth sheeps sick :what:
Actually, it's "The sixth sheik's sixth sheep's sick" or "The sixth sheik's sixth sick sheep".

Whatever happened to pedants' corner. I felt at home there :sigh.

Now there was a thread that wasn't pointless :nostalgic sigh.

David Bailey
22nd-December-2005, 05:38 PM
And as a bleedin' 'eart liberal, I think it's morally wrong to be making a huge fat profit "just because you can". Possibly I think that way because "I can't", but I'm not claiming the moral high ground here, just being nosy.
Actually, as a free market fanatic, at least for this sort of thing, I'm very happy for fat profits to be made all around, as it promotes competition, and (we hope) will lead to better venues. Which, in my opinion, is already happening.

If that means prices go up, fine, let the market establish the level.

And if Ceroc HQ were dumb enough to price themselves out of the market - which they're definitely not - then independent operators would step in and offer more competitive venues. Hopefully...


Now there was a thread that wasn't pointless :nostalgic sigh.
You missed out the closing colon on the sigh icon - feel better now? :)

stewart38
22nd-December-2005, 05:42 PM
Of course prices go up. But I don't think it's unreasonable of a customer to wonder why the prices should go up by five or six times the rate of inflation (CPI 2.1%).

.

I thought it was 2.5%

That letter to my manager was over 0.1% :sad:

Franck
22nd-December-2005, 05:48 PM
Of course prices go up. But I don't think it's unreasonable of a customer to wonder why the prices should go up by five or six times the rate of inflation (CPI 2.1%).I have to mention that prices are only going up at about twice the rate of inflation, or less... Especially here in Scotland, where it is 3 years since the last increase, and costs have gone up much faster than any inflation figure I've ever seen.
There is no directive from Head office, and I had come to the conclusion I would have to put prices up before I found out that London were planning a similar increase.

JonD
22nd-December-2005, 05:51 PM
Just think, if Ceroc franchises stuck another couple of pounds on the price fewer people would have to complain about overcrowded venues. Supply and demand is a wonderful thing (as long as you're on the right side of it).

If anyone is really interested in profit margins you can view the accounts of Ceroc and any of the franchisees that trade as limited companies via the Companies House website (http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/) for a small charge.


Insurance costs are down 25% from 2 years agoI'm not sure where you got that from but my business insurances have increased by above 2.5% each year for the last four years and our exposure to public liability claims is considerably less than that of someone in the public entertainment field. Staff costs at the "unskilled" end of the labour market have risen dramatically over the past few years and the cost of implementing Government regulations continues to rise for all businesses. So, we've got a rising cost base plus increased demand for the product - you're going to see a price rise well above the, largely meaningless from a business point of view, CPI.

If people compared the cost of a MJ night to the cost of a cup of coffee at a motorway services then I'm sure they would agree that they are getting good value for money. However, if someone thinks they are being ripped off then they should stop going to the venue. If there isn't an alternative venue, and that person feels strongly enough, they can set up their own, competing, class and deal with the commercial realities, risks and benefits themselves.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 05:56 PM
If anyone is really interested in profit margins you can view the accounts of Ceroc and any of the franchisees that trade as limited companies via the Companies House website (http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/) for a small charge.It costs £1. But Ceroc Enterprises has taken advantage of the very small companies' exemption from the need to publish a P&L, so the annual accounts won't tell you much. Nor have I seen any franchisees that trade as limited companies rather than as individuals.

ducasi
22nd-December-2005, 11:52 PM
Ceroc Metro did (still do?) a gold card annual pass.
Bet it costs more than my annual pass for UGC/cineworld.

Err, dunno. I think it was about £500 a year? Something like that.

But agin, it's not a valid comparison. .... And that was my point. You can't compare the cost of a Ceroc night with the cost of a cinema ticket for all the reasons you give.



On the whole cost thing... Every time I travel out of Glasgow to go to a Ceroc Scotland event, the accumulated costs of transport and accommodation has always been higher than the cost of the event.

When I attend Franck's classes in Stirling, the cost of the taxi from Stirling station to the venue (2-3 minutes drive) is about the same as the return ticket (which is cheaper than a single) for a train which takes ~30 minutes.

I'm not sure what any of this means apart from that economics is hard. Let's go shopping! (Rep for whoever gets the reference.)

David Bailey
23rd-December-2005, 12:39 AM
And that was my point. You can't compare the cost of a Ceroc night with the cost of a cinema ticket for all the reasons you give.
Just checked on the annual card thing for Metro, and it's £570 for 1 year or £300 for 6 months. Hey, by my standards, that £500 guess of mine was spot-on :)

ducasi
23rd-December-2005, 12:43 AM
Just checked on the annual card thing for Metro, and it's £570 for 1 year or £300 for 6 months. Hey, by my standards, that £500 guess of mine was spot-on :)
While I think my cinema pass is about £12 per month => £144 per year.

WittyBird
23rd-December-2005, 12:45 AM
While I think my cinema pass is about £12 per month => £144 per year.

£12 per month :eek: *** thats around the cost to just see 1 film

ducasi
23rd-December-2005, 12:47 AM
Just checked on the annual card thing for Metro, and it's £570 for 1 year or £300 for 6 months. Hey, by my standards, that £500 guess of mine was spot-on :)
Hang on, that's more than £10 per week. What does it get you? You'd have to go dancing at least twice a week for it to make sense. Clearly it's not intended for the "average" dancer.

ducasi
23rd-December-2005, 12:51 AM
£12 per month :eek: *** thats around the cost to just see 1 film
Correction! £9.99 per month at the moment, but I think the cost is going up to £10.99 in the new year.

Oh, and the cost is higher if you want to go to the cinema in London. :na:

£10.99 offer excludes London West Cinemas: Shaftesbury Avenue , Haymarket, Fulham and Chelsea. £13.99 offer includes all cinemas across the UK and Ireland. Details here (http://www.ugccinemas.co.uk/AffichePage.jgi?ALIAS=cartesugc/5a).

WittyBird
23rd-December-2005, 12:56 AM
Hang on, that's more than £10 per week. What does it get you? You'd have to go dancing at least twice a week for it to make sense. Clearly it's not intended for the "average" dancer.

It would make a lot of sense if it got you into any venue :rolleyes:
I would buy one :clap: But then I dance SSMWTF:eek:

Lynn
23rd-December-2005, 01:22 AM
I would buy one :clap: But then I dance SSMWTF:eek:That still leaves Tuesday.

Re prices going up - if they are going up it makes sense to put them up by £1 no matter how that compares with inflation as putting them up by 38p or even 50p is just going to complicate things.

IMO there are certain perceptions of prices - £7 is thought of as only a couple of pounds over a fiver, £8 as a couple of pounds under a tenner, so it seems like a lot more.

I don't see price rises stopping people from going dancing, but it might affect the frequency that they dance. If all those extra £1s here and there start adding up they might decide to dance one night less a week, so could it potentially mean that some more experienced dancers drop a venue from their regular weekly nights?

WittyBird
23rd-December-2005, 01:40 AM
That still leaves Tuesday.



Nah Tuesday is date day! :innocent:

Monday normally Finchley
Wednesday - Windsor
thursday - taxi @ St Albans
Friday - whatever freestyle is on
Saturday - Ditto Friday
Sun - Berko - start taxi duty 8th Jan

Lynn
23rd-December-2005, 01:47 AM
Nah Tuesday is date day! :innocent: Well you could go to the cinema for your date!

Actually I'm rarely at the cinema these days, and it is partly because of the cost (not good at resisting the popcorn/pic'n'mix). I'd rather spend my 'treat' money on dancing!

WittyBird
23rd-December-2005, 01:50 AM
Well you could go to the cinema for your date!


I do!!
anyway not going into anymore detail :cheers:

David Bailey
23rd-December-2005, 09:19 AM
Hang on, that's more than £10 per week. What does it get you? You'd have to go dancing at least twice a week for it to make sense. Clearly it's not intended for the "average" dancer.
Oh sure - and worse yet, it's only for the Ceroc Metro franchise I believe. On the other hand, there are quite a few dancers who go more than enough times to justify it - some people go 4 or more times a week, crazy people...


IMO there are certain perceptions of prices - £7 is thought of as only a couple of pounds over a fiver, £8 as a couple of pounds under a tenner, so it seems like a lot more.
Good point - it's like the difference between "mid-30s" and "late 30s"; one year makes all the difference :tears:


I don't see price rises stopping people from going dancing, but it might affect the frequency that they dance. If all those extra £1s here and there start adding up they might decide to dance one night less a week, so could it potentially mean that some more experienced dancers drop a venue from their regular weekly nights?
Could be - for the aforementioned 4-times-a-weekers, that's £4 more of course...

LMC
23rd-December-2005, 09:38 AM
OK, now some other people have joined in and I no longer feel like the last Texan at the Alamo.

I work in the charity sector. Our customers are our funders.

And funders are quite likely to say "Oh, we'll pay salaries, but we won't pay training and development, even if it would make your work better and despite the fact that lack of opportunity will put you back to square 1 because your experienced staff leave". Or "We'll contribute to insurance because you need it to run the project even though it's an overhead, but we won't contribute to audit costs even though you legally have to have it and the Charity Commission might close you down so there won't even be a project". How many of you have ever expressed indignation about charities' overhead costs because you want every penny to go to the beneficiary. Here's news for you: it does. Just not necessarily directly. Bitter? me? noooooo....

The point is that if you buy something from a business, you don't query how they have come up with "that price". And businesses make a profit, as well as covering their costs.

It's perfectly reasonable for a business to make a profit - that's why they are there. But IMO, it's not reasonable for a business which is effectively in a monopoly position to be charging rip-off prices. I'll say it again: I don't care about the actual numbers. But as a customer, I would like some indication of how costs and income are divided between Ceroc HQ and the franchisee. Yes, it's nosy. I like to know how things work :na:

JonD
23rd-December-2005, 11:06 AM
a business which is effectively in a monopoly position to be charging rip-off prices.
Firstly, Ceroc aren't in a monopoly position by any rational, rather than emotional, definition - far from it. They may be the largest single player in the market and they may offer the only MJ night in some small local areas but they don't have national or even regional domination. Also, the costs involved in setting up an alternative MJ night are relatively small so there is no major barrier to competition.

Secondly, I don't think you can accuse anyone who charges £8, or even £16, for 3 hours of quality entertainment of charging "rip-off" prices. There's been enough discussion of the cost of cinemas, pubs, nightclubs to establish that.

I understand that people on a very tight budget may have to curtail their dancing if prices rise but that is a fact of life. Accusing a business of exploitation is simply unfair. I could be equally unfair for me to suggest that you stop asking Ceroc franchises to fund your decision to work in the charity sector for wages considerably below the equivalents in either the private or public sectors. If you can't afford to buy a luxury item then you have two choices - either go without or increase your income/reduce other expenditure so that you can.

The relationship between a franchisor and a franchisee is commercially sensitive and you can't expect people to reveal it on a public forum. The franchisee has all the information they need before they choose to enter into a business relationship with the franchisor. If they commit to that relationship then we must assume that they are content with the terms. If you want to discover the details of that relationship then I suggest that you apply to Ceroc for a franchise, proceed through the process until you have obtained all the details you require and so satisfy your curiosity at Ceroc's expense. Along the way I'm sure you will have signed a confidentiality agreement and, I suspect, it would be unwise of you to publish the results of your research anywhere in the public domain.

I can honestly understand your frustration at the increase in prices and the possibility of having to curtail your dancing. However, your continual assertion that Ceroc are a monopoly, charge "rip-off" prices and the implication that they are somehow bleeding their franchisees is really unwarranted.

Sorry for being so forthright.

Jon

TheTramp
23rd-December-2005, 11:10 AM
:yeah:

Indeed, in many areas of the country, there is MJ, but no Ceroc.

Being the biggest, doesn't necessarily mean a monopoly.... I doubt that Ceroc have anywhere near half the MJ nights happening each week in the UK. Mr James, did you want to count them all?? :D

ducasi
23rd-December-2005, 11:25 AM
I can honestly understand your frustration at the increase in prices and the possibility of having to curtail your dancing. However, your continual assertion that Ceroc are a monopoly, charge "rip-off" prices and the implication that they are somehow bleeding their franchisees is really unwarranted. I don't think she's complaining about the prices, before or after any rise, in fact I don't think she's saying any of the things you accuse her of, much less that it is "continual".

She is concerned that Ceroc HQ and the franchisees are in the position to do these things though, and I think she's got a perfect right to be.

David Bailey
23rd-December-2005, 11:49 AM
I don't think you can accuse anyone who charges £8, or even £16, for 3 hours of quality entertainment of charging "rip-off" prices. There's been enough discussion of the cost of cinemas, pubs, nightclubs to establish that.
I don't think LMC did say "rip-off", did she? She's just nosey. Which she misspelt - OK, yes, that was a crime, but it's Christmas, I'll let her off.


The relationship between a franchisor and a franchisee is commercially sensitive and you can't expect people to reveal it on a public forum.
Fair enough, but I think a lot of this reticence is the hangup British people have in general about discussing money, salaries or whatever.

But as for costs of running a franchise, some information is transparent, some information can be estimated... But I think it's reasonable to assume that very few franchisees are making a full-time living out of it.


Being the biggest, doesn't necessarily mean a monopoly.... I doubt that Ceroc have anywhere near half the MJ nights happening each week in the UK. Mr James, did you want to count them all?? :D
Sadly enough, I already did, in the "How many dancers (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6625)?" thread.

Based on the very woolly figures there, I think Ceroc probably does have a majority, but I don't think it's a large majority - less than 60%, say.

I'm not at all worried about Ceroc abusing any monopoly-istic position, however, because:
- The franchise model promotes competition and often frustrates cooperation (which is not always a good thing)
- If Ceroc venues suddenly started charging, say, £15 entry, then lots of independents would spring up to offer (for example), £7.50 entry.
- Ceroc has to compete, not only with other MJ venues, but with salsa and other partner dance forms - I imagine ballroom dancing is more popular now than a few years ago, for example.
- No-one has to dance - if it becomes too expensive, people just won't go, or will find another hobby.

LMC
23rd-December-2005, 11:50 AM
Thanks ducasi, but having re-read my posts I can see how JonD came to those conclusions, although I didn't mean to imply those things. Let's face it, this form of communication is only 7% effective.

And (for the fourth time vs my use of the word monopoly in two posts - which have been quoted more...) £8 is fantastically good value for a night out. Neither minimum wage or venue hire (commented on by JonD and Franck respectively) are included in measures of inflation, so taking those factors into account will mean higher annual price rises than 14 pence pa (2% of 7 quid). And Lynn is right, round numbers are psychologically (as well as practically, in terms of accounting and change) easier to handle.

OK, my use of 'monopoly' was incorrect, and 'rip off' was just plain thoughtless. Especially given that I'm trying to discuss principles - but people are not focussing on the bits of my posts which I thought were the point of the post, which means that I am being extremely ineffective in making myself understood.


It's perfectly reasonable for a business to make a profit - that's why they are there. But IMO, it's not reasonable for a business which is effectively in a monopoly position to be charging rip-off prices. (all intended as general points, I take the point that Ceroc is not in a monopoly position, but I don't think anyone would deny it has a competitive advantage as the largest single player in the MJ market). I'll say it again: I don't care about the actual numbers. But as a customer, I would like some indication of how costs and income are divided between Ceroc HQ and the franchisee (i.e. responsibilities - maybe I should rather have used that word). Yes, it's nosy. I like to know how things work.

Graham W
23rd-December-2005, 11:55 AM
Still good value when u compare with night out at pub...

G

LMC
23rd-December-2005, 11:58 AM
Sorry to post twice in a row - cross-posting

I don't think LMC did say "rip-off", did she? She's just nosey. Which she misspelt - OK, yes, that was a crime, but it's Christmas, I'll let her off.
Yes I did :blush: - sorry, see above.
Nosey/nosy: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/ reckons either are acceptable, so :na:


Fair enough, but I think a lot of this reticence is the hangup British people have in general about discussing money, salaries or whatever.
Yes, Jon's point is fair - I guess I've just got used to the level of transparency required in the voluntary sector where funders want *every* (and I mean every) cost justified to the nth degree.


I'm not at all worried about Ceroc abusing any monopoly-istic position, however, because:
- The franchise model promotes competition and often frustrates cooperation (which is not always a good thing)
Only if franchisees are given reasonable freedom of running their business - which is one of the reasons I want to know "how it works" (but not in numerical terms). It appears that franchisees do have reasonable freedom to do things slightly differently from the "standard" model (e.g. Frank's Stirling classes). And this is a good thing, as it promotes competition which will hopefully improve lessons, workshops and freestyles across the board. BUT - why don't more of them do it?


- No-one has to dance - if it becomes too expensive, people just won't go, or will find another hobby.
:eek:

DavidB
23rd-December-2005, 11:59 AM
If I remember correctly from my economics textbook, the usual definition of a monopoly is a firm with greater than 25% of the total sales.

LMC
23rd-December-2005, 12:05 PM
I can't find any percentage terms, but Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly#Monopolistic_competition) quotes a case where an oil refiner with 64% of the market was forced by government to break up. Since oil is slightly more important to the economy than MJ I guess no-one really cares if Ceroc has the 60% of the market estimated by DJ.

Lee
23rd-December-2005, 12:10 PM
All businesses need to cover their costs and ensure they are profit positive, I personally don't see this price rise as a problem, if people have a problem with a higher entry fee, you could always become a taxi (to get free entry) or buy admit ones in sets of 20 to keep the average cost down.

I wouldn't want to see Ceroc go bankrupt, so support any price changes that keep them operating.

My concern is what loss Ceroc have made with Storm and whether they will have to use the price rises to cover their costs.

Lee

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-December-2005, 01:25 PM
My concern is what loss Ceroc have made with Storm and whether they will have to use the price rises to cover their costs.Spot the hidden assumption.


The question about monopolies is this: what constitutes the market? Is it dance classes? partner dance classes? modern jive partner dance classes? Ceroc has a very small proportion of the national dance class scene, especially when you include salsa. It's a regular tactic for competitors of a large company to artificially narrow their own definition of the market so that they can alledge unfair practices and claim protection from the "monopoly". Recent court action on the subject includes the fight between the trade association for corner shops against the supermarkets: the supermarkets claiming that the convenience shopping sector is distinct from supermarket food retailing and that therefore stores like Tesco Metro and Sainsbury Local do not already hold a monopoly position in their market place.

No right-thinking individual could come to the conclusion that modern jive is a market all by itself, any more than Ashtons has an unfair monopoly on "modern jive lessons in Cricklewood on Wednesday nights." You have a free choice to not dance, to do MJ with another operator, or try another style of dance.

Lynn
23rd-December-2005, 04:17 PM
Good point - it's like the difference between "mid-30s" and "late 30s"; one year makes all the difference :tears: I wouldn't know about that. :whistle:

There isn't much you can go out for an evening and do that doesn't cost something (course there are things you can stay home and do that have little cost...like reading a book :innocent: ). So even those of us on a tight budget just have to manage our finances so we can afford to go out. I don't really mind what way that's all divided up for costs, profits etc as long as I feel I am getting value for money. I want it to be profitable for whoever is running it as if it isn't they will stop. The only real drawback I can see is for the multiple venue person as above.

...for the aforementioned 4-times-a-weekers, that's £4 more of course... That would be up to a £200 increase over the year to maintain the same level of dancing they currently are doing.

Andy McGregor
23rd-December-2005, 07:56 PM
No right-thinking individual could come to the conclusion that Now I'm sure someone has started posting as ESG.

The use of the term "right-thinking individual" can never be used to mean what it means literally - I've always read this as "individual who thinks like me and not like you". It has the underlying message that you are not "right-thinking" and rather thick if you don't agree with the person using the phrase. It's use seems to belittle the person who is accused of not being "right-thinking". And, finally, it's over-used to such a great extent that it's only used by individuals who are not thinking individuals at all - at least not individuals who can think originally or might be willing to re-think based on new information.

ESG has, in the past, shown us that he can think for himself. Maybe he's posting in a hurry:innocent:

On the subject of monopolies. I believe that Ceroc is in a monopoly position with regard to people who want to dance MJ in London or in any area where the Ceroc force is strong. And in many cases Ceroc uses it's muscle to squeeze out independents (sometimes even neighbouring Ceroc franchisees) - which is what the monopolies commission is there to prevent. So, yes, IMHO, Ceroc is a monopoly. Can I have the ship?

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-December-2005, 08:41 PM
Now I'm sure someone has started posting as ESG.

The use of the term "right-thinking individual" can never be used to mean what it means literally - I've always read this as "individual who thinks like me and not like you". It has the underlying message that you are not "right-thinking" and rather thick if you don't agree with the person using the phrase. It's use seems to belittle the person who is accused of not being "right-thinking". And, finally, it's over-used to such a great extent that it's only used by individuals who are not thinking individuals at all - at least not individuals who can think originally or might be willing to re-think based on new information.Yes, it is a cliche. I could have found better words. But the essence of presenting an argument is that anyone who doesn't agree has to be wrong. People will make up their own minds and come to the conclusion that I'm in error if they don't agree with me. I don't need to give them permission.


On the subject of monopolies. I believe that Ceroc is in a monopoly position ... in any area where the Ceroc force is strong.In other words, it's a monopoly everywhere it's a monopoly. And where it isn't strong, it's not a monopoly. This thread is starting to sound like a game - of monopoly - only less meaningful.
And in many cases Ceroc uses it's muscle to squeeze out independents (sometimes even neighbouring Ceroc franchisees) So you keep telling us, although you're ever-so reticent when it comes to backing up these claims with explicit examples. Baseball bats at dawn, was it? Or pigs heads on the door mat?
...which is what the monopolies commission is there to prevent.If you think so, then write a letter to the Office of Fair Trading. When they've finished laughing at you, please post their reply on the Forum.
So, yes, IMHO, Ceroc is a monopoly. Can I have the ship?Only if I can be the top hat.

David Bailey
23rd-December-2005, 09:15 PM
Ceroc has a very small proportion of the national dance class scene, especially when you include salsa.
I agree it depends on your definition of "the market".

And yes, Ceroc is a small fraction of the overall partner dance market - although it's probably the biggest player in that field, at least in the UK - and an even smaller fraction of the "dancing" market. And taking it to extremes, Ceroc has only a miniscule fraction of the "evening entertainment" market.

But Ceroc as an organisation is certainly the largest, and likely the majority, in the Modern Jive dance market.

So presumably it depends whether you view the "MJ dance classes and freestyles" as a clearly-defined and relatively-closed market. In other words, how much freedom of movement and choice is there for the average MJ punter.


No right-thinking individual could come to the conclusion that modern jive is a market all by itself
I've thought a bit more about this, and I think that it is a reasonable definition - as moving from one dance style to another, whilst of course possible, is not easy - lots of effort involved in the transition. And, in many areas at least, finding a non-Ceroc venue to do the type of dance we like to do is not realistic.

So, whilst it's a sad day when I have to agree with Andy McG, I agree with Andy McG - I think MJ is a market. Defining a dance market by the type of dancing involved in that market seems intuitively sensible to me - unless you don't want any markets except at the level of "dancing".

So yes, I think you could make a case for Ceroc being a monopoly - as I know, it's not easy to move to even salsa, which is the only real national rival in terms of accessibility.

On the other hand, I don't think there'd be anything like Modern Jive without Ceroc, so whether it's a "standard" or a "monopoly" is, as with all these things, arguable. And I still don't think it is (or really ever will be) in a position to dominate or exploit punters, if only because it's a leisure activity, it's not a necessity.

And I want the boot (I always got the boot for some reason :innocent: )

David Franklin
23rd-December-2005, 11:00 PM
That would be up to a £200 increase over the year to maintain the same level of dancing they currently are doing.But if Ceroc is a monopoly, it's £200 every time you pass "GO"...

Lynn
23rd-December-2005, 11:59 PM
But if Ceroc is a monopoly, it's £200 every time you pass "GO"...OK, I'll play.

Can be the car please? (I would be the dog but I'm sure I would get some smart/sarky comments. :rolleyes: ) Oh look at all the multi-coloured money...

ducasi
24th-December-2005, 04:10 AM
Oh look at all the multi-coloured money... Short of cash?

You can now print your own (http://www.hasbro.com/monopoly/pl/page.treasurechest/dn/default.cfm) monopoly money!

Andy McGregor
24th-December-2005, 10:53 AM
So you keep telling us, although you're ever-so reticent when it comes to backing up these claims with explicit examples. I have been given examples by people I trust and that includes two Ceroc franchisees. However, I wasn't there to see it with my own eyes so I'm not going to quote those particular examples on an open forum. However, I am happy to say that this anti-competitive activity is something that is done by some Ceroc franchisees.

I have seen one Ceroc franchise close because the next door neighbour has opened up just across the border and put on free nights. As the agressive franchisee had very many nights they could afford to do this - the victim only had 2 nights and a day job. It becomes a depth of pocket and nerve battle which the small guy can not win.

My own opinion is that this type of activity is short-sighted. It does nothing to grow the dancer market and probably puts some people off MJ - but that's only a guess.


If you think so, then write a letter to the Office of Fair Trading. When they've finished laughing at you, please post their reply on the Forum.The above anti-competitive behavior isn't the kind of thing the OFT are there to stop as both parties belong to the same organisation. That doesn't mean the behavior is fair.

This particular Ceroc franchisee has done the same to a small independent. I'm pleased to say it didn't work, it just made them work harder to get started - but it did cause a lot of heartache :tears:

Russell Saxby
24th-December-2005, 11:09 AM
I have been given examples by people I trust and that includes two Ceroc franchisees. However, I wasn't there to see it with my own eyes so I'm not going to quote those particular examples on an open forum. However, I am happy to say that this anti-competitive activity is something that is done by some Ceroc franchisees.

I have seen one Ceroc franchise close because the next door neighbour has opened up just across the border and put on free nights. As the agressive franchisee had very many nights they could afford to do this - the victim only had 2 nights and a day job. It becomes a depth of pocket and nerve battle which the small guy can not win.

My own opinion is that this type of activity is short-sighted. It does nothing to grow the dancer market and probably puts some people off MJ - but that's only a guess.

The above anti-competitive behavior isn't the kind of thing the OFT are there to stop as both parties belong to the same organisation. That doesn't mean the behavior is fair.

This particular Ceroc franchisee has done the same to a small independent. I'm pleased to say it didn't work, it just made them work harder to get started - but it did cause a lot of heartache :tears:

......and some independents have used even more underhand methods (IMO) when opening next to Ceroc venues ...its a dog eat dog world out there

El Salsero Gringo
24th-December-2005, 12:04 PM
The above anti-competitive behavior isn't the kind of thing the OFT are there to stop as both parties belong to the same organisation. That doesn't mean the behavior is fair.Let's take what you say at face value, for the moment ("I heard from someone I trust that someone he regards very highly told him that a friend of his said that someone else had...") That doesn't really strengthen any argument about Ceroc being a monopoly, when it acquiesces, condones or even encourages competition between its own operators. Nor does the recent price rise do anything but encourage competition by making it easier for new players to establish a foothold - at a lower price. I just don't see that there's a case to answer. Even if we accept a narrow definition of the market.

Andy McGregor
24th-December-2005, 12:44 PM
......and some independents have used even more underhand methods (IMO) when opening next to Ceroc venues ...its a dog eat dog world out thereAbsolutely right. But even those underhand indenpendents wouldn't use those underhand methonds to close their own venues.


That doesn't really strengthen any argument about Ceroc being a monopoly, when it acquiesces, condones or even encourages competition between its own operators. Nor does the recent price rise do anything but encourage competition by making it easier for new players to establish a foothold - at a lower price. I just don't see that there's a case to answer. Even if we accept a narrow definition of the market.IMHO Ceroc often behave like they are a monopoly. IMHO opinion they have missed a trick in doing this - they should really be behaving like they are a cartel.

bigdjiver
24th-December-2005, 01:35 PM
The thing about the cinema is that they don't expect you to go 2-3 times a week, but if you do you can usually buy an annual pass that costs about the same per month as two visits.

Don't think Ceroc would do this though...http://www.ceroccentral.com/cgi-bin/public/view.cgi?template=layouts/template.tpll&dis_pg=prices

El Salsero Gringo
24th-December-2005, 01:54 PM
IMHO Ceroc often behave like they are a monopoly. IMHO opinion they have missed a trick in doing this - they should really be behaving like they are a cartel.It doesn't really matter whether anyone behaves like a monopoly (and I understand you to mean by this "engage in behaviour that would abuse an organisations' ability to distort the market") if they don't actually have that power to abuse.

On the other hand, behaving like a cartel - price fixing by collusion with the competition - no matter what your size or market share, is a criminal offence under s. 188 of the Enterprise Act 2002 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/20020040.htm) punishable by a fine and/or a prison sentence of up to five years. Prosecutions may only be brought by or with the consent of the Office of Fair Trading, says the Act, but the recent investigation into Public Schools agreeing their tuition fees amongst themselves should leave no-one in any doubt that the alleged price-fixing doesn't have to involve a large section of the public to be investigated and have the potential for some very nasty consequences.

On that basis, I certainly wouldn't expect Ceroc to behave like a cartel.

bigdjiver
24th-December-2005, 01:55 PM
Hang on, that's more than £10 per week. What does it get you? You'd have to go dancing at least twice a week for it to make sense. Clearly it's not intended for the "average" dancer.One consequence is that it encourages the non-average dancers to attend more often, which might be considered, in general, to be beneficial to all.

frodo
24th-December-2005, 02:01 PM
That doesn't really strengthen any argument about Ceroc being a monopoly, when it acquiesces, condones or even encourages competition between its own operators.

I don't think it is rare, even in harmful monopoly* situations, for there to be some competition at internal boundaries.

An area system is still essentially and intentionally a competition limiting one.




* Not that I think Ceroc has been a harmful monopoly, though I think the case has been made it is a monopoly.

bigdjiver
24th-December-2005, 02:05 PM
:devil: Should the first MJ night have been attacked as a "Monopoly"?

El Salsero Gringo
24th-December-2005, 02:07 PM
An area system is still essentially and intentionally a competition limiting one.It's interesting that you raise that point, because s.188(2)(d) of that Act makes it an offence to "divide between [supplier] A and [supplier] B the supply in the United Kingdom of a product or service to a customer or customers". I have no idea how that should be interpreted, or whether (as it sounds) it outlaws area agreements of the type (I'm supposing) Ceroc holds with its franchisees, and so also every other area/agency type of agreement of which there must be hundreds of thousands in the UK.

Andy McGregor
24th-December-2005, 03:08 PM
On the other hand, behaving like a cartel - price fixing by collusion with the competition - no matter what your size or market share, is a criminal offence under s. 188

snip

On that basis, I certainly wouldn't expect Ceroc to behave like a cartel.I think the reason that there is a law against cartels is because it's against the public interest.

Ceroc franchises are the same company, they are not supposed to be in competition - that means they can behave like they are a cartel without actually being a cartel.

El Salsero Gringo
25th-December-2005, 01:15 AM
I think the reason that there is a law against cartels is because it's against the public interest.

Ceroc franchises are the same company, they are not supposed to be in competition - that means they can behave like they are a cartel without actually being a cartel.Er, and how is that any different from any other franchise - like McDonalds, or Snappy Snaps? Just because KFC has a uniform pricing structure doesn't meant their behaving like a cartel. I think the point you're trying to make is lost on me.

Andy McGregor
25th-December-2005, 03:35 PM
I think the point you're trying to make is lost on me.Yes it is, but I think you're being deliberately thick :innocent:

MoragC
26th-December-2005, 12:01 AM
Hi,
Just wanted to say that I found this thread interesting but what no one seems to have addressed within it is what do you do when you are more than one - in reference to costs. I have a little girl who absolutely loves dancing and, therefore wherever we go we do it together. We are actualy line dancers but have recently attended some Ceroc Events. In line dance the average class is around £3 and when there are two of you that is fine but, if I had to pay £6,7, or £8 a night, then , unforunately, we would not be able to attend. So, please remember without customers there are no classes.

Morag C

Gadget
26th-December-2005, 12:24 AM
So presumably it depends whether you view the "MJ dance classes and freestyles" as a clearly-defined and relatively-closed market. In other words, how much freedom of movement and choice is there for the average MJ punter.
~
I've thought a bit more about this, and I think that it is a reasonable definition
Dosn't this mean that you would have to define MJ? :devil:


have a little girl who absolutely loves dancing and, therefore wherever we go we do it together. We are actualy line dancers but have recently attended some Ceroc Events. In line dance the average class is around £3 and when there are two of you that is fine but, if I had to pay £6,7, or £8 a night, then , unforunately, we would not be able to attend.Curious: how do the two nights compare in terms of what you get out of them?
What is the level of the teaching? their qualifications? The length of time you spend dancing? support of beginner dancers? etc...

Just trying to ascertain whether you are comparing on a "like-for-like" basis; are the differences enough to justify the difference in price?

Andy McGregor
26th-December-2005, 12:54 AM
£8 a night, then , unforunately, we would not be able to attend. So, please remember without customers there are no classes.

Morag CThis is exactly what happenned to me. My wife, Sue, and I went to a class that was £8. I gave in a £20 and got £4 change - we didn't go back :mad:

Russell Saxby
26th-December-2005, 01:26 AM
This is exactly what happenned to me. My wife, Sue, and I went to a class that was £8. I gave in a £20 and got £4 change - we didn't go back :mad:

....had you gone to a class that was £6 and gave over £15 you would have only got £3 change, sounds to me like you saved yourself a pound :D

bigdjiver
26th-December-2005, 08:20 PM
Hi,
Just wanted to say that I found this thread interesting but what no one seems to have addressed within it is what do you do when you are more than one - in reference to costs. I have a little girl who absolutely loves dancing and, therefore wherever we go we do it together. We are actualy line dancers but have recently attended some Ceroc Events. In line dance the average class is around £3 and when there are two of you that is fine but, if I had to pay £6,7, or £8 a night, then , unforunately, we would not be able to attend. So, please remember without customers there are no classes.

Morag CWithout profits there would be no classes either. Have you asked if there are any concessions that might apply to you?

David Bailey
26th-December-2005, 09:55 PM
Hi Morag, and welcome!


Hi,
Just wanted to say that I found this thread interesting but what no one seems to have addressed within it is what do you do when you are more than one - in reference to costs. I have a little girl who absolutely loves dancing and, therefore wherever we go we do it together. We are actualy line dancers but have recently attended some Ceroc Events. In line dance the average class is around £3 and when there are two of you that is fine but, if I had to pay £6,7, or £8 a night, then , unforunately, we would not be able to attend. So, please remember without customers there are no classes.
Good point - families are Cost Multipliers aren't they? :)

It'd be nice if Ceroc did some kind of family ticket. But in the absence of that, you're demonstrating how something which may seem trivial to most (£1 isn't a huge amount of money) can multiply up - if you both went twice a week, that's £4 a week extra, or £200 a year more, which is a significant extra expense. Hopefully you're not being priced out of coming...

Robin
28th-December-2005, 09:32 PM
Hi Morag, and welcome!


Good point - families are Cost Multipliers aren't they? :)

It'd be nice if Ceroc did some kind of family ticket. ...

Ermm - buy a book of admit ones and share ?- there are lots of couples who do that already.

btw - I should point out - or just to refresh people's memory - the only price rises seem to be at CerocScotland and CerocLondon . Its up to each Franchise to control their profitability etc - but you can liken this to BurgerKing - central town/city costs tend to be higher so they charge more.

Quite simple really.

tsh
28th-December-2005, 09:53 PM
Without profits there would be no classes either. Have you asked if there are any concessions that might apply to you?

That's just being a little bit offensive isn't it???

Plenty of people chose to run classes in the £3- £5 region. I don't see why it's necessary to take more money from the people who can afford to pay more in order to compete with the independant venues. In my experience the independant venues offer significantly better value as well.

Sean

Icey
28th-December-2005, 10:04 PM
That's just being a little bit offensive isn't it???

Sean, I don't get you here :confused: I may be reading your quote wrongly but what's wrong with asking for concessions? I'm a student and I'll happily ask for a concession entry price with my NUS card if it means I can save a few pounds. The pounds that I save over a week will buy me another night later on in the month.

I get irked that some franchisees will let me have a concession price for a mid-week class but not on a general freestyle evening.

tsh
28th-December-2005, 10:35 PM
Sean, I don't get you here :confused: I may be reading your quote wrongly but what's wrong with asking for concessions?

My problem was with the transferal of blame from the franchisee to the customer.

Sean

ducasi
28th-December-2005, 10:42 PM
My problem was with the transferal of blame from the franchisee to the customer.
Who's to blame that I can't afford the car I want? Me or BMW? After all, other companies don't feel they need to charge as much for their cars.

David Bailey
28th-December-2005, 11:17 PM
Ermm - buy a book of admit ones and share ?- there are lots of couples who do that already.
Hardly the same thing, is it...


btw - I should point out - or just to refresh people's memory - the only price rises seem to be at CerocScotland and CerocLondon . Its up to each Franchise to control their profitability etc - but you can liken this to BurgerKing - central town/city costs tend to be higher so they charge more.

Quite simple really.
Oh good grief... :rolleyes:

Look, we were having a good old rant here about the Evil Borg Empire were clearly running a National Scheme to exploit us poor consumers, and developing a great set of conspiracy theories around this.

And then some heartless so-and-so has to interrupt with crass and trivial "facts", that just happen to completely destroy our arguments.

That's just plain rude :tears: :)

bigdjiver
28th-December-2005, 11:35 PM
That's just being a little bit offensive isn't it???

Plenty of people chose to run classes in the £3- £5 region. I don't see why it's necessary to take more money from the people who can afford to pay more in order to compete with the independant venues. In my experience the independant venues offer significantly better value as well.

SeanNot everybody has the choice of another venue, and not all of the alternates offer better value. I went through a bad patch after my business failed, and got pretty close to accepting the unemployed concession entry that Cerc Central offered. :devil: There is a case for MJ on the N.H.S., just for its anti-depressant qualities.

The fact that the concession was available helped to enhance Ceroc's image in my eyes. Special prices for students seems like a good business decision to me. "What concessions" sounds like a good thread/poll title to me.

David Bailey
28th-December-2005, 11:42 PM
. "What concessions" sounds like a good thread/poll title to me.
:yeah: Go for it!

Piglet
12th-January-2006, 11:14 PM
Let's go shopping!

Was going to guess Lynn, but then I thought...


Shimmy Shammy Sultans ? Any good Ducasi? :hug:

Piglet
12th-January-2006, 11:35 PM
OK - so here's where I admit I googled your "Let's go shopping!" line...

Have had fun trawling through sites but came across this one where the line appears as part of "The last 10 things a man would never say" on www.cyberslayer.co.uk - what a hoot.

Ducasi what's your answer by the way? Or you still want people to guess?

ducasi
13th-January-2006, 12:25 AM
Good guess, but you'd do better by googling for "is hard, let's go shopping" (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22is+hard%2C+let%27s+go+shopping%22)... you'll see it's a phrase used quite a bit...

It all originates from this story (http://i2i.org/article.aspx?ID=951)...

:nice:

EDIT: OK, I admit it was obscure, but I know there are one or two people out there that stood a chance of knowing it... :flower:

Piglet
14th-January-2006, 05:11 PM
It all originates from this story (http://i2i.org/article.aspx?ID=951)...
:rofl: That one also came up on my search, but I decided it couldn't be that one!

ducasi
14th-January-2006, 05:34 PM
:rofl: That one also came up on my search, but I decided it couldn't be that one!
What, you didn't have me down as a Barbie kind-of-guy? :wink:

Actually, now I read the rest of that page, it's not a great telling of the story... Can't find a really good one though. :(

Buttons
17th-January-2006, 10:10 AM
I don't know of any such rises planned up here. We are currently at £6 in Edinburgh. Which I think is reasonable.


Sorry Gary Its £7 now

killingtime
17th-January-2006, 11:01 AM
Sorry Gary Its £7 now

I know :D.