Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

[Gadget]

Inspired from a few posts in the Exclusivity thread and elsewhere:

(With especial refernce to "Yankers"...)

If a teacher has some inappropriate dancers in their regular class, should they be singled out by the teacher/taxis? Should the class have an emphisis to eliminate this? Should regular dancers report "feedback" on dancers to taxis/teachers for improvement?

If the teacher discovers a few beginners developing bad habbits (followers leading, bouncing,...) should there be something to remedy it? should it be left to the Taxis? Should the source be found and trained better (Taxis or long-term dancers who think they are helping)

How does this translate to a workshop enviroment?

[ads]

I think the worst bad habits that I constantly witness are ineffective listening and observation skills!:mad:

[under par]

(With especial refernce to "Yankers"...)

If a teacher has some inappropriate dancers in their regular class, should they be singled out by the teacher/taxis? Should the class have an emphisis to eliminate this? Should regular dancers report "feedback" on dancers to taxis/teachers for improvement?

I

I think yes.

If teachers spend enough time post class dealing with their punters by dancing with them and being aware of others concerns then they will become aware of the problematical dancers.

They should take remedial action even if this becomes a free private lesson, it will eventually benefit all the other punters, leading to a higher satisfaction level follwed by better retention hopefully.

[LMC]

I agree with UP - only problem is that the teacher doing "all the work" will only pick up bad habits in dancers of the opposite sex to the teacher. Plus if the teacher is dancing all the time - which they would have to, to get round sufficient people, when are they going to do the 10 minute remedials?

Perhaps the answer is to train taxi dancers (and demos?) to spot problems - so they can encourage people with difficulties to go to wherever the teacher is waiting to do the mini-style/technique classes - out in the corridor or in the review class room or wherever.

I think Franck's Stirling classes are a fantastic idea, and I would really like to see these replicated in *every* venue - maybe ditch the intermediate class once every six weeks or so in favour of teaching some "basic skills". Don't list dates of skills classes or do them 'regularly' - as and when, but every few weeks would be better, otherwise half the people who really need them would probably avoid them :rolleyes: . You might get sulks and complaints from move monsters, but again, taxis, the demo and teachers can address this by telling everyone how much these techniques will improve their dancing and encouraging the "sought after" dancers to attend the class too so the resistant "I have nothing to learn" people are shown by example.

[Andy McGregor]

Of course teachers are responsible for the education of their pupils.

At my classes I pick out people who are developing bad habits or seem frustrated with their progress rate. I invite them to come along for 15 minutes before the class so I can give them individual attention. This applies to both men and women (I knew learning to follow would come in handy).

During the class I sometimes spot people with a bad habit and have little talks I've worked out where I tell the whole class about bad habits some people can pick up. And the next week I will have a lesson where I teach the travelling return which requires smooth & slotted dancing - the teaching of which irons out bad habits as you really can't bounce your hand or dance in a giant circle with this particular move.

Having said all that, you will see people at my classes with bad habits - they're usually visiting from a class down the road:whistle:

[clevedonboy]

Yes they are, but can they eliminate bad habits within their teaching model?

Problems (these aren't criticisms)
Large numbers of couples (many of them new each week)
Teaching from the stage
Always doing the move at the same time as the class

Given the above it will be difficult to spot individual problems while teaching

So it's up to the teacher to get around as many dancers as possible in say 45 minutes - and of course teey won't be the ones who need help, since all the keeners are after the teachers attention while the needers are in the bar or 'avin a fag (sorry that' too sweeping a generalisation I know but I hope you get the drift).

So Taxi dancers seem to be the answer shame that many Leroc classes don't have them.

[under par]

I think the worst bad habits that I constantly witness are ineffective listening and observation skills!:mad:

Sorry! did you say something i wasn't really looking ?:D

[Icey]

I'd like to add my two pence worth on teachers that don't mention fundamental points. My example is leaders gripping their followers with their thumbs :mad:

A franchise I attend quite frequently makes minimal or no mention of this as far as I can tell. As a result quite a few of the leaders have a death grip which really hurts. When I've talked to some of these leaders I'll get a mixed bag of responses along the lines of some that simply didn't realise that it hurt, some that do realise and are trying to get out of the habit and some that just shrug and say no one else has complained, why are you? The teacher did once make a comment in the intermediate class at the insistance of LMC but he did it begrudgingly and no more has been heard on the matter.

[LMC]

... The teacher did once make a comment in the intermediate class at the insistance of LMC but he did it begrudgingly and no more has been heard on the matter.
Sarcastically even.

I name and shame Joe at Chesham. The epidemic of death grips at that venue was a factor in me deciding that it wasn't worth the distance any more.

[David Bailey]

The teacher does of course have an influence on the styles and habits of his/her students - for example, it took me years to shake off being seen as a "Mike dancer" :)

But that's not the only factor, so "responsible" is maybe a bit too strong. A good teacher should of course work to minimize bad habits, and emphasize this in the class - but yes, I think on an individual basis, the taxi dancers are better placed to spot and correct these habits than the teacher.

[Gadget]

Some really well thought out points above :)

I think the worst bad habits that I constantly witness are ineffective listening and observation skills!:mad:
hmmm... "ineffective listening"; I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by the term - draw a small semi-circle to the left translates to draw a semi-circle and to hell with the size. Yes?
If so, shouldn't the teacher be emphisising the relevant information more? Watching for people doing "Big" and making point of showing "small"?

Observation skills: should a teacher really be relying on the pupils watching and learnig that way, or should they be pointing out clearer what to be watching for?


What is "worrying" me is some of the venues where there is a known issue amoung regulars that is not being addressed. :sick:

And what do teachers at weekenders and workshops have to do to specially cater for people with these dancing dissabilities? Should they cater for them? If they don't then the rest of the pupils attending the workshop could be suffering. If they do, are they not "lowering" the level for the rest of the pupils? Is there a balance? or better; an encompasing way that the material can be taught?

[ads]

What I mean by ineffective listening skills is that most things that people complain about is usually covered in class, the problem often lies in the fact that people do not listen properly to what is being saidespecially those that need it most.

Also observation makes up an intergral part of communiacation and through watching you can see that teachers/advanced dancers are not yanking, use thumbs, have firm grips, bounce, throwing people of balance etc etc.

Like any skill that you learn to become really compitant at it there comes a point when you must start teaching yourself and translate to feeling what the teacher is saying and doing.

This is the greatest hinderence on peoples ability to learn in my mind.

[Piglet]

What I mean by ineffective listening skills is that most things that people complain about is usually covered in class, the problem often lies in the fact that people do not listen properly to what is being saidespecially those that need it most.

:yeah: Yep! I've noticed this with some leads definitely. I hear what the teacher has said and I often wonder why they can't hear the same information.

However, that being said, I am aware that we all learn in different ways:

some learn better from hearing things;
some learn better from reading things;
some learn better from looking at pictures;
some learn better from experiencing what it is they are supposed to be learning;
some learn from a mixture of the above (also I've possibly missed out something - I'm not a perfect student :sad: )
some learn better from listening to a similar-level peer who can explain it in their [more simplistic] term (but I really don't think this applies to our ceroc classes - this is more what I see in the primary school - some children are more open to listening to their peers than the dreaded teacher - ie ME!)

Perhaps having TV screens with written instructions and pictures would help the percentage of people who can't learn the way I do? Which would be a mix of the hearing and watching and experiencing (which should cover most students - alas, not enough though).

[Gadget]

What I mean by ineffective listening skills is that most things that people complain about is usually covered in class, the problem often lies in the fact that people do not listen properly to what is being saidespecially those that need it most.But to the solutions to problems, you first have to ba aware of the problems in the first place. The you need to work out if they apply to you. Only then can you work on learning to improve them.


Also observation makes up an intergral part of communiacation and through watching you can see that teachers/advanced dancers are not yanking, use thumbs, have firm grips, bounce, throwing people of balance etc etc. I agree, but shouldn't the teacher be pointing out "Look: I'm not 'yanking' - the motion is smooth." or "look at my hand hold: when turning, my hand changes to a flat palm-to-palm connection that simply slides freely - you can't do that when holding on with thumbs." or "when dancing, my body may move up and down, or side to side; but watch the level of my hands - no bounce" or "You don't stir the lady or 'push' at her; give her a chance to follow"...
I have heard all of the above from various teachers on stage in normal classes. Is it that hard to teach?


Like any skill that you learn to become really compitant at it there comes a point when you must start teaching yourself and translate to feeling what the teacher is saying and doing.Yes - but the teacher's job is to teach - to aid in the pupils learning. I've been going to beginners classes, intermediate classes and workshops for years... I'm still learning... from all of them. Seldom I learn from what they actually verbally say, but I wouldn't say that's not a reflection on their teaching; the fact that I can learn from their actions is perhaps more indicative.

[MartinHarper]

Also observation makes up an intergral part of communiacation and through watching you can see that teachers/advanced dancers are not yanking, use thumbs, have firm grips, bounce, throwing people of balance etc etc.

Most teachers/demos do some sort of "bounce" thing when demoing a move without music.

[TheTramp]

But to the solutions to problems, you first have to ba aware of the problems in the first place. The you need to work out if they apply to you. Only then can you work on learning to improve them.
I think that you're missing the point here Gadget.

There are a good majority of people in any class who don't really pay attention to what the teacher is saying. These people aren't aware of the problems. Aren't listening to what the teacher is saying. And aren't really that interested in learning to improve.

As I've said before. For most people, it's a social dance. They come along once a week, do the class, dance some tracks. Sit out some and chat. If you could say to them, "I have a magic wand, and if I wave it, you'll turn into a fantastic dancer", would ask you to wave the wand. But aren't really interested in working to become better.

I don't think that you can hold the teachers responsible for those people.

Of course, I may just be way to cynical here. But I don't think so...

[TheTramp]

Most teachers/demos do some sort of "bounce" thing when demoing a move without music.
Most? Or just the ones in Gloucester area?? :devil:

[ads]

I agree, but shouldn't the teacher be pointing out "Look: I'm not 'yanking' - the motion is smooth." or "look at my hand hold: when turning, my hand changes to a flat palm-to-palm connection that simply slides freely - you can't do that when holding on with thumbs." or "when dancing, my body may move up and down, or side to side; but watch the level of my hands - no bounce" or "You don't stir the lady or 'push' at her; give her a chance to follow"...
I have heard all of the above from various teachers on stage in normal classes. Is it that hard to teach?


No it is not that hard to teach and I and other teachers say it often but if people don't listen and look in an educational manner then you can talk and demonstrate until the cows come home. There is only so much you can say in a class as well.

[ads]

But to the solutions to problems, you first have to ba aware of the problems in the first place. The you need to work out if they apply to you. Only then can you work on learning to improve them.


Yes - but the teacher's job is to teach - to aid in the pupils learning. I've been going to beginners classes, intermediate classes and workshops for years... I'm still learning... from all of them. Seldom I learn from what they actually verbally say, but I wouldn't say that's not a reflection on their teaching; the fact that I can learn from their actions is perhaps more indicative.
This is the problem though isn't it...self awareness how does one get it and is it the teachers' responsabilty (barring obvious safety concerns) to keep pushing if some people really don't want to get it.

Often you can pick those who think they know it all and those who want to learn teachers are facilitates to finding the knowledge but they can't make them drink. Those that want to learn will so because they wish it not because the teacher tell it so and this often comes down to personal reasons.

[MartinHarper]

Most? Or just the ones in Gloucester area?? :devil:

I've seen the same thing at weekenders and from guest teachers, so I'm pretty sure it's not a local thing. I think it comes from the need to emphasise the beat in their bodies to compensate visually for the lack of a musical beat.
Possibly I'm seeing something that's not actually there. Wasn't someone saying something about poor observational skills?

[Andy McGregor]

I can't take it any more.
I've tried to ignore it but I just can't.
And I'm someone who had to re-take his English 'O' level.
Can somebody please correct the spelling and punctuation of the title of this tread.

p.s. Am I turning into ChrisA?*:eek:

*And there's more evidence, my hair's going grey - at least I haven't started wearing black vests :wink:

[David Bailey]

There are a good majority of people in any class who don't really pay attention to what the teacher is saying. These people aren't aware of the problems. Aren't listening to what the teacher is saying. And aren't really that interested in learning to improve.
:yeah: The teacher can only say so much - and if the students aren't listening, there's little the teacher can do about it. We've got some right rowdy people in Finchley, for example...

But this is where I think there's an opportunity for "intermediate-oriented" taxi dancers; at the moment, taxi dancers are mainly supposed to focus on beginners, but I'd like to see more taxi dancer resources oriented towards style advice for intermediates.

Showing is much harder to ignore than telling.


Can somebody please correct the spelling and punctuation of the title of this tread.
Whew, glad someone broke before me :)
Although I was thinking of a pun on the lines of "unusual hobbits", which is now ruined :tears:

[Andy McGregor]

Whew, glad someone broke before me :)
Although I was thinking of a pun on the lines of "unusual hobbits", which is now ruined :tears:I was thinking of the clothes worn by monks :confused:

But did you correct it in the heading of your own message?

[David Franklin]

But did you correct it in the heading of your own message?Not that my grammar is perfect, but haven't you got the apostrophe in the wrong place?

[LMC]

I dunno, I think the spelling and grammar are so "Gadget" that it's cute :D

[Andy McGregor]

Not that my grammar is perfect, but haven't you got the apostrophe in the wrong place?Yes, you're right, it's not perfect :whistle:

[Andy McGregor]

I dunno, I think the spelling and grammar are so "Gadget" that it's cute :DIt might be cute in a post but it's annoying in a thread heading.

And, LMC, are you saying you're reading Gadget's posts out of turn? I thought Gus was down on the rota as the one to do that today. It's not your turn until mid January :devil:

[Andreas]

I haven't actually read the replies to this thread but my opinion is YES, teachers are responsible for how their punters dance. You obviously can't draw a straight line because some people are just thick and don't get any hints, but in general you will notice if teachers emphasise on keeping bad habits at a minimum.

[Gadget]

But this is where I think there's an opportunity for "intermediate-oriented" taxi dancers; at the moment, taxi dancers are mainly supposed to focus on beginners, but I'd like to see more taxi dancer resources oriented towards style advice for intermediates.
Isn't this the link back to "Long-term intermediates"? Or at least people who know what they are doing and can show the dancers they are dancing with how it should be done?

I don't think that there is any intermediate class I have been to in the last few years where at least one partner hasn't said that they are glad they have someone that knows what they should be doing! ({:what:} Normally I then screw it up :blush: )
Should teachers pay more attention to the people that want to learn in the hope that they pass on the knowledge and help those that don't?

Do the pupils not have some responsability to each other? In helping a fellow pupil to become a better dancer, I am ensuring that my dances with them will be better. Should I be doing this, or is it the teacher's responsability?

[Whitebeard]

My dogs' have done their best to eliminate this problem, but there's still at least one black rabbit still chewing away at the primroses I'm trying to establish in my grasslands.

So what's going to happen in the Spring breeding season, is the 'black' gene now firmly established in the locality or will it prove to have been a one season wonder. If I remember, I'll keep you posted.

[Whitebeard]

I've seen the same thing ..... (bouncing hands) ..... at weekenders and from guest teachers, so I'm pretty sure it's not a local thing. I think it comes from the need to emphasise the beat in their bodies to compensate visually for the lack of a musical beat.
Possibly I'm seeing something that's not actually there. Wasn't someone saying something about poor observational skills?

Maybe I'm becoming ultra sensitive, but I echo Martin in seeing the same sort of thing at 50% of the Ceroc scene round here. And, surprisingly, I saw it again when revisiting Jazzjive.

The 'fusion' I aim for incorporates a goodly proportion of the smoothness and interpretation of ballroom foxtrot.

[ChrisA]

It's not your turn until mid January :devil:
... 2008

[LMC]

Do the pupils not have some responsability to each other? In helping a fellow pupil to become a better dancer, I am ensuring that my dances with them will be better. Should I be doing this, or is it the teacher's responsability?
It's their responsibility, no-one else's. Perhaps they don't want to become better dancers.

In intermediate classes, I don't "help" unless I'm asked to now - the last time I volunteered something useful my partner walked off on me. (I said "don't let go" to a guy who was struggling - because he kept letting go - with a complex pretzel variation which I had 'got', having been through it with a couple of good leads.) So now I grin and bear it if someone is leading moves wrong, unless they are hurting me or ask - and if I don't know either, I'll tell them so.

[Gadget]

In intermediate classes, I don't "help" unless I'm asked to now
Again, I think that this is a big difference between leads and followers: I can "Help" followers without uttering a word or making it condescending {well, I hope I can; I certainly try :sick:}

I am in the class, I can do the moves, I can lead the follower and help them through the move. I take an active interest in every partner I have: showing them how I think they should follow - whether they take up on what I am showing them is up to them. If I was doing the move mechanically {as it is done from stage}, in exactly the timing it "should" be done; I doubt that I would be as helpfull to the follower.

Is this just confusing them? should I just stick to the mechanical automon motion and timing?
Personally I feel that as an experienced dancer, if I can help and "give back" to the venue, the dance,.. then I will.

[LMC]

I actually rather enjoy guys doing this, 'cos it tells me whether I'm following the lead rather than the teacher. But I think it depends on the follower: if they are really unconfident (whatever their level), then IMO leads should lead the move as taught. Although if I'm leading an obviously experienced woman who is being excessively "helpful" then I sometimes deliberately wait and do the move/s a beat or so behind - telling them gently "wait for it" - with an angelic smile :devil:

[Graham W]

I think saftey aspects & stuff like gripping should be reitrated in the class; H from SWest tends to look at certain indivs when making a point sometimes - I think that works;
G

[Lou]

I think saftey aspects & stuff like gripping should be reitrated in the class; H from SWest tends to look at certain indivs when making a point sometimes - I think that works;
G
Perhaps his teaching style suits a smaller class. However, having been to his large Cheltenham class, I've encountered a larger proportion of grippers & dippers. I doubt his eyesight's good enough to see some of the disasters happening at the back of the room.

[Andy McGregor]

Perhaps his teaching style suits a smaller class. However, having been to his large Cheltenham class, I've encountered a larger proportion of grippers & dippers. I doubt his eyesight's good enough to see some of the disasters happening at the back of the room.I have this very thing too. I have a class that usually has 3 rows of 4 couples. I can pick on people (read individually coach :wink: ) to my hearts content :innocent: sometimes I even get down off the stage and swap partners if I see a couple having difficulties. I also have a large class where this doesn't work because of the number of people doing the lesson. I have to talk in general principles and I think we do get a few bouncing hands and the occasional gripper :tears: But I do mark them out for later individual attention where I can.

[Jive Brummie]

I think certain things can be seen as being a teachers responsibility, but not everything. To clarify, if a teacher persistently talks about not dancing with a shaped lead hand and utilising a more finger-tip-type-touch, then is it really their fault if people in the line's don't listen and continue to grip on for grim death? The people will only listen and learn if they want to. Some folks just want to come along and dance and so you might as well be peeing in the wind to get through to them. However, if a teacher does a demo and then constantly overturns at the end to reflect 'their style' then I reckon they are then responsibly for their class all overturning. Without doubt, what people see happening on stage they try to reciprocate (sp?) on the floor, be it all good or all bad, in effect learning a teacher's bad habits!:sick:

To a degree, I think the teacher needs to demo and dance on stage completely 'style-less' unless doing a style oriented class, in order for the students to really see exaclty what they're s'posed to do in a clear concise way.

j.

[David Bailey]

To a degree, I think the teacher needs to demo and dance on stage completely 'style-less' unless doing a style oriented class, in order for the students to really see exaclty what they're s'posed to do in a clear concise way.
Isn't that what the CTA course teaches you, to have no style? :devil: :na:

[David Bailey]

OK, here's serious response to make up for my earlier frivolity...


To clarify, if a teacher persistently talks about not dancing with a shaped lead hand and utilising a more finger-tip-type-touch, then is it really their fault if people in the line's don't listen and continue to grip on for grim death?
Good question.

Pragmatically, no - in a typical large-class teaching environment (i.e. 50-100 pupils) there's no chance to correct individual mistakes. I imagine it's hard enough in that sort of environment just to move them along 10 women or whatever and stop the beggars chatting nineteen to the dozen.

On the other hand, the teacher always has some responsbility, and a lot of influence, over the styling and dancing of the dancers at that venue - individual teachers often stamp their individual styles on classes over a long-ish period. So in theory, if there were a larger-than-average percentage of death-grippers in a particular class, then yes, the teacher would bear some responsibility for that.

There's an analogy to the "It's always the leader's fault if it goes wrong" saying, to me - i.e. it's a simplistic statement, but there's some truth in it.


To a degree, I think the teacher needs to demo and dance on stage completely 'style-less' unless doing a style oriented class, in order for the students to really see exaclty what they're s'posed to do in a clear concise way.
I'd love a format where the teacher regularly spent a specific amount of time (say, 5 minutes in the middle of every intermediate class) simply demonstrating a single style point; handhold, compression, tension, frame, etc.. He/she could easily do this by only teaching 3 moves instead of 4 - and I think it'd make a massive difference.

[Whitebeard]

...... However, having been to his large Cheltenham class, I've encountered a larger proportion of grippers & dippers.




..... So in theory, if there were a larger-than-average percentage of death-grippers in a particular class, then yes, the teacher would bear some responsibility for that.

No-one who has seen H teach and freestyle could imagine those bad habits would be due to his example. The man is the very picture of relaxed dancing and delicate hold.

[bigdjiver]

...I'd love a format where the teacher regularly spent a specific amount of time (say, 5 minutes in the middle of every intermediate class) simply demonstrating a single style point; handhold, compression, tension, frame, etc.. He/she could easily do this by only teaching 3 moves instead of 4 - and I think it'd make a massive difference.I had the same brilliant idea some time ago,:grin: then realised that Michaela :worthy: regularly suggested style points into a class. The extent of this method had escaped me (obviously :sad: )To those struggling with the moves it seemed to go down as "blah blah", and gave them an opportunity to collect their thoughts or chat with partner:blush: . To the more attentive it was an opportunity to improve their style. Certainly Marc and Paul of Ceroc Central also teach style along with the moves. Others may do so too, but my mind is usually elsewhere at other venues.

[TheTramp]

However, if a teacher does a demo and then constantly overturns at the end to reflect 'their style' then I reckon they are then responsibly for their class all overturning. Without doubt, what people see happening on stage they try to reciprocate (sp?) on the floor, be it all good or all bad, in effect learning a teacher's bad habits!:sick:

To a degree, I think the teacher needs to demo and dance on stage completely 'style-less' unless doing a style oriented class, in order for the students to really see exaclty what they're s'posed to do in a clear concise way.

I'm not sure that I agree with this.

If a class never sees a 'style' being taught, then they never learn. It can sometimes be quite easy to spot people who predominantly learn from one teacher, by the style and moves they do (Viktor being a case in point - it has been easy to spot people who've only been taught by Viktor).

But I'd say that this isn't necessarily a bad thing - as long as the teacher doesn't have that many bad habits (impossible not to say 'any', as we all have bad habits!). After all, isn't it better to have some style, even if it's copied off someone else, than to have no style at all?

And also, what may be seen as 'bad' style by someone, may be seen as 'good' style by someone else. I remember one teacher in London (who shall remain nameless) who actively used to teach girls to turn and follow their arms (I believe that this is what you mean by 'overturning'), and there are plenty of other people who do it too. Because you or I or even the majority don't like it, doesn't mean that it's bad (yes, I'll agree that it might make the next move harder to lead sometimes, but I can live with that. Mostly!). It's all personal preference - if you like it, do it I say (within limits!) :flower:

As people get better, and absorb more information from other sources, they will start to develop their own style, and decide what is right for them. But if they never got to see different styles being taught, then it may be harder for them to develop their own.

[ChrisA]

It's all personal preference - if you like it, do it I say (within limits!)
I can't see it this way. To reduce it all to some egalitarian "every subjective view is just as valid as every other" is to make any concept of "getting to be a better dancer" totally meaningless.

I mean, you could argue that all the rhythmless - even beat-less - *******s - out there are just as good as the Nureyevs and Astaires of this world, just with different preferences.

But it's your "within limits" that gives the game away - you're just as conscious of a blurred-at-the-edges-but-nevertheless-real objectivity as the rest of us.

Funnily enough, there's a teacher whose style (in freestyle) is as unique as Viktor's yet teaches with no superimposed style at all.

It's Amir.

When James says:


I think the teacher needs to demo and dance on stage completely 'style-less'
... I think he's spot on.

[Lou]

No-one who has seen H teach and freestyle could imagine those bad habits would be due to his example. The man is the very picture of relaxed dancing and delicate hold.
The guy is so laid back, he never even looks at his partner! :wink:

[TheTramp]

I can't see it this way. To reduce it all to some egalitarian "every subjective view is just as valid as every other" is to make any concept of "getting to be a better dancer" totally meaningless.

I mean, you could argue that all the rhythmless - even beat-less - *******s - out there are just as good as the Nureyevs and Astaires of this world, just with different preferences.

But it's your "within limits" that gives the game away - you're just as conscious of a blurred-at-the-edges-but-nevertheless-real objectivity as the rest of us.

Funnily enough, there's a teacher whose style (in freestyle) is as unique as Viktor's yet teaches with no superimposed style at all.

It's Amir.

Please don't be silly :flower:

If everyone danced in the same way, and we were all clones, then it would be very boring. There are many styles which are different. But all equally valid in making people great, good, or even just average but acceptable dancers. And hence "every subjective view is just as valid as every other", within limits - the limits being those things that make a dance unpleasant - lack of timing, jerking etc.

Nigel has a subjective view about the way he wants to dance. So does Viktor. So does Amir. So do you. So do I. We're not all the same. Does that mean that we're not all good dancers? Does doing things in our different styles make the concept of "getting to be a better dancer" totally meaningless?

And I'm sorry, but you can't be serious about saying that Amir doesn't put his own style onto the moves he's teaching when he teaches. That's a ridiculous claim. You mean, when he teaches a move, it doesn't look like him teaching, could be any person up there on the stage. In that case, why do you keep on raving about him as a teacher? If all he's doing is teaching you moves, then it could be anyone who teaches moves. What he does, surely, is teach you how to do moves 'with style'. Which is obviously his style. Or does he teach you how to do moves in someone else's style? In which case, why not keep going on about the someone else?

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Amir is one of the most stylish dancers I've seen when he's teaching. Which is why I think that people like you keep raving on about his teaching....

[Stuart M]

To a degree, I think the teacher needs to demo and dance on stage completely 'style-less' unless doing a style oriented class, in order for the students to really see exactly what they're s'posed to do in a clear concise way.j.
Mostly agree with JB when it comes to teaching beginners. When it comes to the taxi refresher class, what you find (particularly with leaders) is that they start imposing some sort of 'style' of their own onto it right away, which is typically just bad execution on their part. Standing on your own and letting your follower dance around you could be called a style, after all, but most would agree it's a bad one. Likewise dancing big, taking huge steps and big lunges, is a style, but not a good one for the social dancefloor. Or am I now in the grey area between mechanics and style called 'technique' - see various old threads...and cue more Zen-like mysticism about the word 'style' :rolleyes:

I end up saying to dancers in the early stages (first half-dozen lessons) to think of things mechanically, e.g .with a return 'step in, hand up, lady returns, once she faces you, hand down, step back'. The word style never gets mentioned. As they get more confident with the mechanics, they relax, start fitting it to the beat better, and a genuine style might begin to emerge.

In intermediate lessons, however, my (h) opinion differs. A teacher should then be able to demonstrate more than one style, surely, rather than simply none? That way, dancers learn how certain moves and techniques fit certain kinds of music.

[ChrisA]

And I'm sorry, but you can't be serious about saying that Amir doesn't put his own style onto the moves he's teaching when he teaches. That's a ridiculous claim. You mean, when he teaches a move, it doesn't look like him teaching, could be any person up there on the stage. In that case, why do you keep on raving about him as a teacher? If all he's doing is teaching you moves, then it could be anyone who teaches moves. What he does, surely, is teach you how to do moves 'with style'. Which is obviously his style. Or does he teach you how to do moves in someone else's style? In which case, why not keep going on about the someone else?

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Amir is one of the most stylish dancers I've seen when he's teaching. Which is why I think that people like you keep raving on about his teaching....
I've obviously not been clear enough. But I'm not being silly, or making ridiculous claims. And no, of course I don't mean any of the nonsense words you've tried to put in my mouth above.

Let me try and be a bit more specific.

When he demonstrates the move he's about to teach, yes, absolutely, he dances it with his very unique style, and it's a joy to watch. And when he's dancing in freestyle, it's like that, but even more so.

But when he breaks the move down for the purposes of teaching it, what he actually does is a very minimalist version of the move, with the technique points demonstrated and described, with the two matching perfectly. If he says take three steps, he takes three steps, and that's all he does. If he says to hold the lady with your arm all the way round her waist, then that's what he does.

But what he does not do, and in my experience is one of a tiny minority of teachers who don't, is add in what I'm calling a superimposed style - where they do stuff in the move that they are not teaching.

For example, some female Ceroc teachers I've seen will say "return and step back" at the end of the move, but they don't step back. They do a kind of twist and then step forward, and it can look very stylish, but it's not what they've just said, and it's not part of the technique they're trying to teach.

All I'm saying about Amir, as I perceive what he does, is that he does exactly what he teaches while he's teaching it. It's still just as fluid and poised as when he's dancing it or demoing it, and you can call that part of his style if you like, and I wouldn't disagree. It's the add-on stuff that people do but don't teach (and often describe something completely different while they're doing it) that is entirely absent from Amir's teaching.

I suppose I'm distinguishing too between technique and style, but that's a different argument.

Edit: Actually I'm not so sure it's a different argument!

[doc martin]

“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.”
Benjamin Franklin

Most of the discussion on this thread seems to be about what the teacher demonstrates from the stage. Many of the replies point out that teachers do insert style and technique tips into their classes, but a majority of the class seem unwilling and/or unable to take in the teaching.

I know that this harks back to previous threads but, unless the teacher and demo are prepared to get out on the floor after the lesson, dance with the class members and, most importantly, correct their mistakes, then most will not realise that they are making the mistakes that the teacher is talking about from the stage.

This applies especially to dancing with the long-term intermediates currently being discussed on another thread.

I have read what has been written about some teachers working the floor well but, in my limited experience, I have seen little hands on teaching of this sort.

If it does not happen much why not? Do teachers not think it is appropriate to criticise in social dancing? Do teachers only tend to dance with the beginners, so not see the deeply ingrained mistakes intermediates are making?

On a slightly different slant, much research shows that the most important influence on children's attitudes and behaviours is their peer group. An analogy of this in the dance situation would be that the most important influence on a dancers style is the people they dance socially with.

To that extent you could say that the responsibility for bad habits lies with the peer group. However, the teacher would be able to influence the habits of the group as a whole by becoming part of the social dancing group and improving it from within. If they are not doing this, then the responsibility for any bad habits does indeed lie with the teacher.

[Jive Brummie]

Something I've just thought of....

A teacher and his/her demo may, if they're lucky get around to dancing with everyone in the class once...possibly even twice during the night, depending on size of class. So say for example I or Melanie had 'adjusted' somebody and we'd had only one chance to do this all night...is it still my fault that they then revert back to their original self as soon as we walk away and dance with somebody else...or do the rest of the class members have a responsibility to ensure the 'new adjusted' standard is then maintained?

We don't half rely on our long term intermediates don't we!!!!:wink:

j.

[David Bailey]

I had the same brilliant idea some time ago,:grin: then realised that Michaela :worthy: regularly suggested style points into a class.
Yeah, but if it's to make a difference on a large scale, it would have to be mandated as part of the national "curriculum" thingy as defined every year by Ceroc HQ, rather than depending on the efforts of individual teachers.

So my idea, which is even more brilliant ( :) ), is that Ceroc HQ puts this in as part of the standard.


No-one who has seen H teach and freestyle could imagine those bad habits would be due to his example. The man is the very picture of relaxed dancing and delicate hold.
I've not seen H (H? What sort of a name is that? :devil: ), so I can't comment - but yes, IMO, in theory at least, teachers have responsibility for the general actions of their classes, in MJ as in every other discipline.

So, getting back on topic, my answer to the original question would be "Yes" - or, at least "Yes to a point".

[Robin]

{snipped}
So, getting back on topic, my answer to the original question would be "Yes" - or, at least "Yes to a point".

I assume then, that where one blames a teacher for a pupils "bad" habit, that conversely , you could praise them for the good habits ?

The fact is that Ceroc caters for a mass market - there are many methods by which one can improve if one wants to . The number of times you can point out the same thing to the same people becomes a little tiring - as has been said earlier in the thread, if someone is happy with the way they dance then they'll keep dancing like that.

Personally, I believe that a well timed verbal delivery from a dance partner has much more affect .. as in " OUCHHHH, that hurt - you shouldn't use your bloody thumb - you've been dancing long enough to know that!" would probably end up with a much longer term affect than the "There are no thumbs in Ceroc" patter.

On that line it might be an idea for an example to be given in every beginners class - ie the ladies lead the men into a move whilst pinching down with their thumb - as they say "no pain no gain" ! :wink:


just my hapennies worth

[David Bailey]

I assume then, that where one blames a teacher for a pupils "bad" habit, that conversely , you could praise them for the good habits ?
I think that's simplistic - but yes, a teacher has some responsibility for development and practices of the student's at that venue. As do the Taxi dancers, as does the demo, and even the experienced dancers at that venue.

So you could quantify it as, for example only, for dancer styles:
- 30% may be teacher-inspired
- 30% may be down to individual disposition
- 20% may be taxi-dancer-inspired
- 20% may be inspired by other dancers

So, the answer to the question is "30%" (or whatever the percentage is).

If a particular individual is making a mistake, or is dancing well, it's impossible to tell why.

But if a group of dancers at a venue are making more-than-average mistakes, or are dancing better than average, then IMO there's a chance it's down to the teacher, yes.

[tsh]

I think that's simplistic - but yes, a teacher has some responsibility for development and practices of the student's at that venue. As do the Taxi dancers, as does the demo, and even the experienced dancers at that venue.

Isn't there a difference between the responsability and the contribution? The taxis may in a position to make a significant impact to the 'style' of a venue, but it's down to the teacher to ensure that they do.

Conversely, the teacher doesn't automatically get credit for a very competant taxi crew who should be able to make up for a very 'average' teacher.

Part of the 'problem' with diferentiating venues and blaming the teacher for bad habits is that there seems to be a very large overlap of punters between venues (at least round here) which must be a bit of a moderating factor...

Sean

[LMC]

Another grocer's apostrophe? :eek: - MODERATOR - someone is posing as DJ can't imagine why they would want to...

Overlaps of punters at venues make it clear that it can't be all down to the teacher/taxis IMO. I think it's mostly up to the individuals themselves. If they are not getting what they need out of teaching at a venue and they really want to improve their dancing, they will - by going to different venues and seeking out different teachers/modes of teaching.

That's what most of us have done after all.

It's only mostly up to the individuals though - teachers/taxis do have to take some responsibility for making sure that the information people need is available to them - by actually teaching the correct handhold, for example (there are a number of venues that don't :mad: ).

[tsh]

I think it's mostly up to the individuals themselves. If they are not getting what they need out of teaching at a venue and they really want to improve their dancing, they will - by going to different venues and seeking out different teachers/modes of teaching.


I think you'r'e' confusing the population on the forum with the general dancing population. There might be a few bad habits in here, but the whole forum's probably got about 1 venue's worth of bad habits between them!

Sean

[LMC]

Nope, IMO any learning has to be the responsibility of the individual more than the teacher - you can lead a horse to water and all that.

People may be unaware of their bad habits - particularly if they only go to one venue where the teacher may not cover essentials. But given the overlap of punters between venues I don't think this can really be used as an excuse - the information is out there for those who want to find it.

[David Bailey]

Isn't there a difference between the responsability and the contribution? The taxis may in a position to make a significant impact to the 'style' of a venue, but it's down to the teacher to ensure that they do.
Do the teacher and the taxis usually have that level of interaction? I thought the taxi dancers were managed by the venue manager or something, but I could be wrong...


Part of the 'problem' with diferentiating venues and blaming the teacher for bad habits is that there seems to be a very large overlap of punters between venues (at least round here) which must be a bit of a moderating factor...
Of course - it's difficult to tell where good or bad habits were picked up. Which is why, to me, the solution can't be local, it has to be national.

[David Franklin]

I think you'r'e' confusing the population on the forum with the general dancing population. Nice to see someone honouring the original thread title with a refreshingly original approach to punctuation... :wink:

[doc martin]

A teacher and his/her demo may, if they're lucky get around to dancing with everyone in the class once...possibly even twice during the night, depending on size of class.
I think you would be hard pushed to do that every evening. I was thinking more in terms of using your powers of observation to spot where your help would be most usefully applied. I am sure everybody would benefit from some impartial one to one advice, but I am also sure that you notice some things that everybody in the venue would benefit from being eradicated, especially if they occur in more experienced dancers.

So say for example I or Melanie had 'adjusted' somebody and we'd had only one chance to do this all night...is it still my fault that they then revert back to their original self as soon as we walk away and dance with somebody else...or do the rest of the class members have a responsibility to ensure the 'new adjusted' standard is then maintained.
Well, as someone says earlier in the thread " You can lead a Norse to oughter but you can't make him think". So, no it is not your fault if you can't get through to someone. If someone enjoys their bad habit, you will not cure them of it by telling them it is a bad habit - look at all the people who hang around here all the time for example.

I guess I'm thinking more in terms of an 'on average' type of thing. If you can decrease the average amount of bad habits per punter, then some of the bad habits will die out because nobody will see them to copy them. That's not saying that people aren't perfectly capable of inventing their own bad habits from scratch, but I suspect most are picked up from somebody else.

[David Bailey]

Well, as someone says earlier in the thread " You can lead a Norse to oughter but you can't make him think". So, no it is not your fault if you can't get through to someone.
We're probably getting into general teaching/instructional theory now, which I imagine is something a proper dance teacher should know about.

I still think the teacher bears some responsibility - in the same way as the leader bears some resposibility for the quality individual dances. I wouldn't say "It's always the teacher's fault", that's too strong, but I thnk there are analogies.


If someone enjoys their bad habit, you will not cure them of it by telling them it is a bad habit look at all the people who hang around here all the time for example.

:what: :eek: :blush:

[Jive Brummie]

If a class seems to be developing a bad habit then I personally think then the responsibility lies firmly with the teacher. On a mass scale then the bad habit should be addressed as a key point during the teaching of the class. A typical example would be beat 3 of the first move where you twist the lady out to the side. At first a lot of leaders twist the lady out and leave the left hand/arm high, up at face level:angry: ...not good, instead they're s'posed to take the left hand out and down towards the ladies far hip etc etc, in turn removing the safety issue that the incorrect action brings along with it! Getting back to the point...if this persistently happens, the teacher 'should' be able to see it and rectify the problem. However, what normally happens in the class environment is people have a wee natter and so miss out on these useful/important/safety points and thus continue to try and knock their partners block off. In the perfect world the class would all arrive bang on time, the class would start bang on time and everybody would be silent during the teaching of the class.....:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ..and to top it all off...get the moves!

I'm gonna' blame the venue manager...if his desk was tidier then people would get the moves better :sick: :whistle: :wink: .

j.

p.s. perth venue manager, smiley bob...rocks!

[Little Em]

I dont think the teachers r responsible.......

as JB said above..... if peeps are busy chatting up the girl/boy they are with and not listening they will not hear what the teacher is saying therefore cannot pick up on the 'helpful' :D hints!

if it is something that the WHOLE class is doing then maybe the teacher is doing it too. and doesn realise? how will that one be solved???

BUT....... if people are not listening then there is only so much time the teacher can spend standing n waiting in silence until peeps be quiet again! and who wants to do that all the time... that wouldn b fun! :eek:

so.... some peeps make a rod for their own bad habits by not listening in the first place. :flower:

so .... i am going to place the blame on the assistant venue mangaer for not putting stage lights on quick enough an then peeps cant see me anyway!! :tears:
so its their fault!! :devil:

:flower: Em

[Keith J]

Well, objectively in the accepted format of the classes, the teachers are not allowed to dwell in the negative, and build on the positive, it would not be good for us to stand there and say' don't do this it is a bad habit'. Basically there is not time either in 40-45 minute format lessons.
Certainly side classes I teach for beginners and improvers we like to do a 'try not to', & 'if you feel pain here' refrain etc.
so self crtitique is also requires how many of us actually think what does this look like?

[LMC]

There's a good psychological reason for not using negative expressions like "don't" - which is that the subconscious tends to filter the negative but the rest of the message 'sticks' - as in "don't put beans up your nose" (anyone's eyes watering?)

But you *can* give the same message by thinking about your phrasing.

I agree that it's not helpful ( :irony: ) to say "Don't use your thumbs" but to hell with saying "try not to use your thumbs" - [ Yoda ] 'Do or do not, there is no try'.

"Keep your thumbs away/pointing towards the ceiling/off your partner's hand" is a clear instruction that is not, IMO, negatively expressed.

[Gadget]

~ I don't think this can really be used as an excuse - the information is out there for those who want to find it.
But someone needs to tell them what to look for before they can find it.

[LMC]

Agree, which is why I said in an earlier post:


It's only mostly up to the individuals though - teachers/taxis do have to take some responsibility for making sure that the information people need is available to them - by actually teaching the correct handhold, for example (there are a number of venues that don't :mad: ).

Really, the handhold is a simplistic example. For "more being out there", I was thinking about fundamentals such as lead and follow - usually mentioned in review classes to at least some degree, enough IMO that people COULD find out more from taxis/teachers on an individual level or find out about suitable workshops etc.

[Jive Brummie]

I agree to a certain extent about the use of specific language. Beginners IMO should never really hear the words "don't" or "wrong" as they have purely a negative effect, normally, on the class as a whole. However, when I taught intermediate's at Perth, I liked to talk to them as the adults they were and the fact of the matter was that they were all my pals anyway and so I knew I could get away with saying certain things. I think this comes in relation to your relevant location in the country. To explain I'll go as far to say that the Scot's don't like (or at least in my class they didn't) any pussy footing around...just tell it like it is. And I found that the level and speed of response came far quicker if what they were doing was pointed out as being incorrect. I know it's not necessarily advocated from a teaching point of view, but it worked for us. By standing on stage and saying, "yeah, it's looking ok but it'd be even better if it looked like this..." in essence means that, yes, you can carry on doing it that way rather than the right way because your way is 'ok'. Tell someone however that by doing it in this manner is wrong and they make sure they don't do it if for nothing else that they don't want to be the person in the class that does the move or whatever...wrong. It's a bit of a harsh way of doing things but then I was lucky enough to have a class of intermediate dancers who came to dance rather than purely for the social aspect of things.

j.

p.s. intermediates were only ever taught 3 moves as well. This allowed for far more detail in the teaching and really (hopefully) clear explanations of why some things were or were not done.

[Lou]

(H? What sort of a name is that? :devil: )
If it's good enough for a member of Steps, surely it's good enough for a Ceroc™ teacher?! :whistle:


p.s. intermediates were only ever taught 3 moves as well. This allowed for far more detail in the teaching and really (hopefully) clear explanations of why some things were or were not done.
That sounds eminently sensible. There are a number of venues around here that teach up to 6 moves in the Intermediate class. Now that makes it hard to learn & remember moves!

[David Franklin]

I dont think the teachers r responsible.......

as JB said above..... if peeps are busy chatting up the girl/boy they are with and not listening they will not hear what the teacher is saying therefore cannot pick up on the 'helpful' :D hints!I agree there's not much you can do for those not paying attention. But although most won't pick up all the technical details, I think the teacher's attitude has a big influence on the dance style at a venue. If they do lots of big, flamboyant moves, and have an attitude of "on balance or not, you're going to be here on beat 7", then you're probably not going to see a lot of leaders concentrating on subtlety.

And even if you're not actively 'teaching' after the class, you are still setting an example by how you behave. I've seen many teachers dance only with the top few dancers at their venue, or even exclusively with their demo partner! Not surprising to see "refusal rows" in that environment. I was also particularly unimpressed when I once saw the teacher doing big spinny aerials at his (very crowded) venue during freestyle. :angry:

[Jive Brummie]

If it's good enough for a member of Steps, surely it's good enough for a Ceroc™ teacher?! :whistle:


That sounds eminently sensible. There are a number of venues around here that teach up to 6 moves in the Intermediate class. Now that makes it hard to learn & remember moves!

I found that anything above a 25 beat routine would cause problems when coming to remember the moves....and that roughly equated to about 3 moves. .

[Gladrags]

Being a maths teacher in the day job, there seems to be many pertinent points in this thread, many of which come straight from the more pedagogical theory in the classroom. The big difference however is that the Ceroc adult audience generally have it within their power to 'behave' and presumably always want to be there? Not always condusive to a learning environment, which I would guess has to be the major consideration in a Ceroc class (??).

A few ideas:

(1) As a teacher, in the typical demonstration practice lesson (which Ceroc isn't far from), its partly my job to observe what students are doing wrong and then correct it in a whole class environment. The difference of course is that I have the option to go back into whole class teaching at any point. Nevertheless, the ceroc teacher could pick the worst done move of the four and include that move in the next weeks routine, focussing on Key Points (no need to let the class know exactly why).
(2) The best learning done is by practice and figuring out why something you're doing does or does not work for yourselves. Coincidentally, I have found this is quite often a way that new moves (or variations) are born.
(3) If the basic teaching is incorrect, then the class are sure to pick up this error in their dancing. It seems to me important that teachers decide exactly what and how they are going to teach it, and stick to that (the traditional lesson plan). Erratic words or demonstration lead to confusion - only this week a teacher taught a 'footwork framed move' saying that the leading right hand should be on the ladies hip + no mention of frame, and then demo-ing with a ballroom frame leading from the shoulderblade. Annoying!
(4) Demonstrate at a level which the class can reach. I've seen some teachers do the tricks & flicks & thrills & spills in the demo of a move. Having said that, its gotta be a fine line between achievable and challenging, with the mixed-ability nature of a ceroc class making very difficult to pitch.

[TheTramp]

4) Demonstrate at a level which the class can reach. I've seen some teachers do the tricks & flicks & thrills & spills in the demo of a move. Having said that, its gotta be a fine line between achievable and challenging, with the mixed-ability nature of a ceroc class making very difficult to pitch.

That's one of the problems really, isn't it. If everything is always done at the level which all the people in the class can reach, then a significant percentage of that class are going to find it too easy, and will be bored.

I don't see that there's a problem teaching classes that you expect the majority of the class to struggle with - and not achieve. Provided that it's on an occasional basis - and possibly mentioned in advance. Else, the more advanced members of the class are not going to have any incentive to keep on coming.

Even if some/most of the people in the class don't get it, they will still have learnt something, which will hopefully make it easier next time they see a routine like that. And when I do put something more difficult into classes, I'm always more than willing to go over it afterwards with anyone who has struggled, they only have to ask.

[Icey]

Sarcastically even.

I name and shame Joe at Chesham. The epidemic of death grips at that venue was a factor in me deciding that it wasn't worth the distance any more.

To drag this thread back up and make an update ...

On Monday at Chesham Gordon was making a BIG DEAL of this in the beginners and intermediate class by asking the girls to put up their hand if their lead was using his thumb to hold on to them.

Big gold star to Gordon IMO :worthy:

[LMC]

:yeah:

and a :clap: too - he's been teaching there for a while I gather, and it has made a difference, IMO (went there recently after a break of several weeks).

[ducasi]

On Monday at Chesham Gordon was making a BIG DEAL of this in the beginners and intermediate class by asking the girls to put up their hand if their lead was using his thumb to hold on to them. Did he also ask the boys to hold up their hands if their follower was using her thumbs to hold on?