Men get in for free?

[Will]

Poll Alert!

Following on from Feeling Pink's "Men in MJ - a Selfish Thread". I got to thinking:-

If a venue let men in free of charge, but women had to pay £10 (for example), and the week on week there were at least the same if not more men than women, would the ladies on this forum go to this venue?

This kind of strategy is often employed by nightclubs, except it's the women that get in free and the men who subsidise it.

- Could this work in the Ceroc(MJ) World?
- Is it ethically / morally acceptable?
- What would you charge TwK in this Senario?

[David Franklin]

- What would you charge TwK in this Senario?I'd charge TwK $1000000 to get in....

[LMC]

Perhaps us ladies could have a little card which gets a stamp or a gold star or something every time we bring a new man - leading to a free night's dancing (and possibly also an interesting reputation) for every 10 men we introduce.

Nightclubs have been offering "women get in for free" for at least the last *cough* 20 years *cough* - so would "men get in free" really be all that effective a mechanism for evening up numbers?

[Lory]

I support it but i'd expect at least one man to by me a drink! :cheers:

[Cruella]

I think you could let the men in free for the first three months, until they feel competent and possibly get hooked. I've no problem with paying a bit more if it means not having to fight over the men! Choice, pay £7 dance 50% of tracks or pay £10 dance 100% of tracks. Suits me!

[David Bailey]

This kind of strategy is often employed by nightclubs, except it's the women that get in free and the men who subsidise it.
We had this debate about weekender imbalances, I think Stewart38 suggested male-oriented financial incentives for that one.


- Could this work in the Ceroc(MJ) World?
Don't see why not. It's a standard marketing ploy.

"Free for men" may be excessive, but "cheaper for men" might work, from a pragmatic point of view. Of course, the organisers may well lose out financially, especially in the short term (although hopefully in the long-term the venue would become well-known and popular).

Note: having said that discounts won't work on me, I don't base my choice on price. But feel free to bribe me anyway.


Is it ethically / morally acceptable?
Hmmm.... I think so, because you're trying to do something to improve the quality of dancing for everyone there. But it's probably controversial.


- What would you charge TwK in this Senario?
Is he DJ-ing?

[Zebra Woman]

I would support men getting in for free, but I'm not convinced it just money that stops men from coming out dancing.

I think men who love to dance would come along anyway. Allowing men in for free may eventually attract men who are mainly on the pull, or just want to watch :sick: . It wouldn't guarantee they would be really interested in dancing, that comes from within and I don't think that can be bought.

And what if they chose to dance with each other. :eek:

[Clive Long]

<< snip >>
Allowing men in for free may eventually attract men who are mainly on the pull, or just want to watch :sick: << snip >>
I was wondering that too (I was, I was).

Let us assume a proportion of the women are there hoping to be pulled, then when they pair up with the men who have arrived with that goal alone, the people remaining are those who are also in interested in dancing (as much as pulling). No?

I have seen, but not attended :innocent: , events where women get in free before, say 10pm. So, it is an approach used to "balance the numbers" and keep the punters attending.

I feel there is some truth in what is written here (http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/evolve/menwont.html) as to why men don't dance (I also think it is amusing).

Clive

[TiggsTours]

I think you could let the men in free for the first three months, until they feel competent and possibly get hooked. I've no problem with paying a bit more if it means not having to fight over the men! Choice, pay £7 dance 50% of tracks or pay £10 dance 100% of tracks. Suits me!
I'd support this, but not a venue where men permanently get in for free. When a man's already hooked, and will go dancing just as often as I do anyway, why should they get in for free still when I don't? The first 3 months sounds good.

I also like LMCs idea that, run in conjunction with men's first 3 months, for every 10 men (I think 5 would be more realistic though) that a woman introduces, she should get in for free too.

The reason nightclubs do it is because, generally (not always) women go to nightclubs to dance, socialise with friends and have a good night, whereas men go to get their leg over. This is not the case with dancing, so you can't possibly compare the two, as both sexes go dancing for the same reason, as a rule.

[killingtime]

I feel I have to give a quick reply of why I made my choice. I'd go along to a venue that was free for me because it was... ummm... free but at the same time I don't think it seems particularly fair and I'm not really convinced it is the money that stops men turning up to events.

Having a "free for men" night maybe to show them what it is all (just convincing those men who think dancing is a girls thing otherwise) might be good on occasion. It brings it all back to how to get men into dancing.

[TiggsTours]

JamesOf course, the organisers may well lose out financially, especially in the short term (although hopefully in the long-term the venue would become well-known and popular).
Don't be daft! The only people who would lose out would be the women! All they'd do, to make it financially viable for the men to get in for free, would be to hoik up the price for we fairer sex! So we'd still lose out!

Personally, I'd rather not be losing out financially, or else I wouldn't be able to go dancing as often, so I'd still miss out on dances too, same as now really! I'd just get more dances on the nights I go, but I'd go less often. Personally, I'd rather be able to afford to keep dancing as often, and carry on enjoying chatting to my friends if I can't get a dance.

[Clive Long]

<< snip >>It brings it all back to how to get men into dancing.
There must be a poll somewhere that shows 90%+ of men are there initially to find an available, attractive woman.

Where's Harper to help us find it? Martin? Martin?

[killingtime]

Don't be daft! The only people who would lose out would be the women! All they'd do, to make it financially viable for the men to get in for free, would be to hoik up the price for we fairer sex! So we'd still lose out!

They wouldn't need to do that. I know quite a few women that do another form of dancing on a Thursday in Edinburgh because they are sick of the "25 women on" scenario. If more men went, for whatever reason, so the ratio was more balanced then those women would be more likely to attend as well.

Cruella made the point that if they could balance out the numbers she is getting better value for money even if the price was higher.


There must be a poll somewhere that shows 90%+ of men are there initially to find an available, attractive woman.

Not me guv.

[Andy McGregor]

Is he DJ-ing?Being allowed to DJ costs TWK a lot more :wink:

[TiggsTours]

They wouldn't need to do that. I know quite a few women that do another form of dancing on a Thursday in Edinburgh because they are sick of the "25 women on" scenario. If more men went, for whatever reason, so the ratio was more balanced then those women would be more likely to attend as well.

Cruella made the point that if they could balance out the numbers she is getting better value for money even if the price was higher.



Not me guv.
Ah, so the free entry attracts 10 more men, so the 25 women come back, you're back to being 15 women over! Where exactly does the even ratio lie?

Besides, as Zebra Woman said, its not a cost thing, women get in for free in nightclubs while men pay, far more than they would to go dancing, still the nightclubs are full of men! Its just that most men don't have any interest in learning how to dance, so free entry just wouldn't work anyway.

[El Salsero Gringo]

- Could this work in the Ceroc(MJ) World?
- Is it ethically / morally acceptable?
- What would you charge TwK in this Senario?Why not? Most venues do free entry for their taxi dancers, and for visiting teachers - so if men are a scarce and therefore valued resource, it makes perfect sense.

To argue, naively, that the venue would have to charge women more is false - because the object would be to encourage *more* dancers to attend, not just to redistribute the financial burden amongst those already attending.

[TiggsTours]

Just an observation, if women are really so bothered about the number of men, and would really be happy to pay while men get in for free, on the off chance that it might possibly attract another 2 or 3 beginner men along one night, why is it only men on this forum who have ever made this suggestion?

[under par]

I think it is very important that MJ operators think about how to increase the numbers of males attending events, how to retain them and also how to get their dancing skills up to an acceptable standard.

I have previously started a thread about what is needed to be done to retain and train the many males who fall away from MJ at the early stages.

IMHO the MJ world revolves around having enough males/leaders at an event to satisfy the needs of all the females/followers who have paid to dance.

I think it is the responsibility of MJ operators to seek to have enough suitably trained males/leaders for the equivalent amount of females/followers attending and people like Russell and Jive addiction and now Funky Lush and Ceroc Storm are to be congratulated for taking up the cause to provide a better event for females/followers and by refusing to take the extra money money and providing a substandard product for the followers/females.

MJ and the dance world in general has this problem that without the leaders they do not have a product.

What too many operators do is provide the hall the music the class without having a strategy for providing the main ingredient ....good male leads.

IF I was to try and provide this product and hope for a good financial return the the main strategy I would look to follow would be male/leader provision and male/leader training and retention.

The number one complaint I hear repeatedly at MJ events is about the lack of leaders/males which is also translated as TOO MANY women.

Its not rocket science, if any operator took the long term view and invested in the enlisting, training and retention of males/followers they would have a licence to print money because there are so many ladies out there who love to dance, far more IMHO than there are men.

If Wills suggestion was taken as part of a strategy to create the ideal MJ enviroment for all the participants then I for one would vote for it but the ability to go for free is not a benefit on its own I would personally go for.


So in conclusion men getting in for free is not the cure on its own there needs to be some joined up thinking by MJ operators.. if someone seriously wants to make a lot of money offering the BEST product in the market then adherence to my strategy above would be a good starting point.

I offer these thoughts for free to any that wish to take up the challenge.

A better MJ life for all is the utopia we all want to see come to life ....go on someone try to make the difference!

[Zebra Woman]

Why not? Most venues do free entry for their taxi dancers, and for visiting teachers - so if men are a scarce and therefore valued resource, it makes perfect sense.

IMO Visiting Teachers and Taxi dancers are not to be compared with men off the street. They are usually* guaranteed to be a valued resource as they are committed dancers.


*unless of course they are on the pull themselves and spend the whole evening dancing with their target.


Not that I have any objections to exclusivity at all when practiced by the paying customer.:innocent:

[LMC]

Perhaps ask beginner men in their 3rd or 4th week what they think they need to make the 'leap' to intermediate?

Perhaps ask newish intermediates what would have made it easier for them during their first few weeks as well as what would help them improve fastest now?

Perhaps Ceroc HQ could make use of the database now the swipe system has been running a while and mail guys who haven't been for three months and ask what might persuade them to come back.

Incentives for all surveys returned might increase response...

[ChrisA]

I think if men were permanently allowed in for free at a venue it would change the expectation placed on them, and even if it had the desired effect on numbers, there'd be some unwanted side-effects as well.

Inevitably, there would be an element of obligation on the guys. It would not be like taxi dancers being allowed in for free - since it's known that when they're not wearing the shirt, they're not on duty.

But guys getting in for free, while a seductive idea for the numbers, would inevitably be seen to some extent as taxi dancers, which wouldn't be good for either the men or the women.

And I can imagine the anti-hotshot outcry already - "He turned me down :tears: :tears: :tears: .... AND he'd got in for free....:angry: :angry: :angry: "

[Minnie M]

Once you have got the men through the door (the hardest part) us girlies need to give them lots of attention and encouragement - that'll keep'm:yeah:

Another way to encourage men to come along is to say to potential new men :-

" My name is Will, this is my wife Kate:drool: who I met at dancing "

[LMC]

I think Minnie has hit the nail on the head... as a number of us have said, cost is not necessarily the deciding factor - letting women in free at nightclubs has made no long term difference to ratios.

Free entry might encourage the guys for the first week or two... after that it will be the experience that keeps them coming back - or not.

[killingtime]

...might possibly attract another 2 or 3 beginner men along one night, why is it only men on this forum who have ever made this suggestion?

Possibly because many women, like yourself, don't like the idea of being made to pay while someone else is getting in for free just because they are the other sex.


Ah, so the free entry attracts 10 more men, so the 25 women come back, you're back to being 15 women over! Where exactly does the even ratio lie?

You have no idea of the amount (or lack of) extra men it would attract. I was just stating the reason that women have decided to not attend. If those women attended the increased revenue might offset the loss of men getting in for free and, therefore, the lack of requirement to increase the prices for women. As it is since we probably have about 60 men the prices would not be offset and I doubt it would be profitable for the venue to do this.


Besides, as Zebra Woman said, its not a cost thing, ... Its just that most men don't have any interest in learning how to dance, so free entry just wouldn't work anyway.

I agree. I don't mind paying to dance at all as I think it represents a fantastic value for money. If you made it free then I'm sure I'd love the fact I have a little bit more money each month but the fact that I pay doesn't stop me going.

What, therefore, you are suggesting is that we need to focus on a cultural change in the way that men perceive partner dancing. The male friends I've suggested come along often either take the "I can't dance" approach (which is difficult for me to convince them they'd be fine) or that dancing isn't a manly hobby and they wouldn't want to go.

[Feelingpink]

I voted against men getting in for free because I don't think that people (men or women) generally value 'free' things. If you want to reduce the cost for guys to see if it evens up numbers (it might mean that some guys can afford to go dancing more often), I'm fine with that.

[Lynn]

Perhaps us ladies could have a little card which gets a stamp or a gold star or something every time we bring a new man - leading to a free night's dancing (and possibly also an interesting reputation) for every 10 men we introduce.Oh, I like this suggestion better! Maybe for every 5 men? I would have a lot of gold stars by now!

[Clive Long]

IMO Visiting Teachers and Taxi dancers are not to be compared with men off the street. << snip >>
I just have to ask this.

You statement suggests to me you know a reasonable number of men off the street to make such a comparison against dance teachers and taxi dancers. Is that the case oh stripey one? :devil:

CRL :waycool:

[stewart38]

Where I go a lot of the venues had a lot more women in the summer ,now these venues have equal numbers or more men .

How much this is to do with women not going i dont know

[Gadget]

Should you then charge for men who follow? Especially since they are normally the good leads - one dance takes away two leads from the pool; perhaps they should pay double :devil:

[jivecat]

I feel there is some truth in what is written here (http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/evolve/menwont.html) as to why men don't dance (I also think it is amusing).

Clive

Fascinating stuff, Clive, and as you say, very entertaining. Who wrote it?Some sweeping generalisations there, and I would question whether what he states as fact is true for all people, all of the time, but why let that get in the way of a good theory?

"To dance well, one needs good health, poise, co-ordination, stamina, strength, athleticism, rhythm, balance, suppleness, speed, an ability to predict and react to the movements of others (especially for partnered dancing), and style. Interestingly enough, all these things are also what make a good fighter. Yes, even style is useful, for it intimidates opponents."

The writer quotes this to argue that dance is part of male sexual display. But as far as I can see, good women dancers need all of the above characteristics as well, but he doesn't associate them with fighting prowess in their case.

He also doesn't really address why dancing, for men and women, remains enjoyable when you could argue that its evolutionary function as a mate attractor/selector has become redundant. For example, when mating-for-life has already occurred, though there are other reasons.

[MartinHarper]

I support it but i'd expect at least one man to by me a drink! :cheers:

Well, if we're basing this on the nightclub "meat market (http://cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7136)" model, then I think you have to buy us drinks.

Maybe we could combine an MJ night, attracting women, with a clubby night, attracting men, so that neither sex had to pay extras. So, folks would dance, and then make out in the corner. We could call it a "blues room".

[DavidB]

If a venue let men in free of charge, but women had to pay £10 (for example), and the week on week there were at least the same if not more men than women, would the ladies on this forum go to this venue?

Are you saying that we can go to Divissima on the door at the next Jango, and tell her "Will said men could get in free"?


Another way to encourage men to come along is to say to potential new men :-
" My name is Will, this is my wife Kate:drool: who I met at dancing "
Unfortunately this is more likely to put off women from staying.

[David Franklin]

Are you saying that we can go to Divissima on the door at the next Jango, and tell her "Will said men could get in free"?Of course you can say that, but as Will is a married man, his opinion doesn't exactly count for much, does it?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Just an observation, if women are really so bothered about the number of men, and would really be happy to pay while men get in for free, on the off chance that it might possibly attract another 2 or 3 beginner men along one night, why is it only men on this forum who have ever made this suggestion?Just an observation in return: it's because of the large number of women on this forum who complain about the lack of men and what should be done about it.


What, therefore, you are suggesting is that we need to focus on a cultural change in the way that men perceive partner dancing. The male friends I've suggested come along often either take the "I can't dance" approach (which is difficult for me to convince them they'd be fine) or that dancing isn't a manly hobby and they wouldn't want to go.It's quite condescending actually to suggest that you (anyone) knows better than those men what they want, what would be good for them, and what they'd enjoy. If they don't want to dance - leave 'em be.

And - by the way - it isn't just men that you ladies want. It's men who can dance, interpret the music, who don't yank, don't smell, don't touch you in unwelcome ways, who do ask you to dance (but not too much), don't have too much to drink, can do interesting moves (but not too complicated) and make you feel like goddesses. Like I said, the men you actually like to dance with are a scarce resource.

[doc martin]

It's quite condescending actually to suggest that you (anyone) knows better than those men what they want, what would be good for them, and what they'd enjoy. If they don't want to dance - leave 'em be.
I will presume to answer for KillingTime here (i'm sure he'll correct me if he feels it worth the effort). He was not telling anyone what was good for them, merely suggesting that they should try a new experience that they may enjoy. Unless you consider all marketing and advertising to be condescending you cannot label KillingTimes evangelical attempts so.

And - by the way - it isn't just men that you ladies want. It's men who can dance, interpret the music, who don't yank, don't smell, don't touch you in unwelcome ways, who do ask you to dance (but not too much), don't have too much to drink, can do interesting moves (but not too complicated) and make you feel like goddesses. Like I said, the men you actually like to dance with are a scarce resource.
:yeah: I was reading that and thinking that it sounds so like the requirements ladies have for life partners too. I guess there is some parallel in that both job descriptions require someone with communication skills, ability to interpret moods and looks, knowing how intimate to be in a public place and an awareness of personal hygiene.

In contrast, most women do tend to give life partners a little longer than three minutes before looking for the next one, although some (I am told) do start to look for the next one before they have finished with the current one.

[killingtime]

It's quite condescending actually to suggest that you (anyone) knows better than those men what they want, what would be good for them, and what they'd enjoy. If they don't want to dance - leave 'em be.

Ooh. Well I only suggested they come along and I do accept "no" for an answer without suggesting I'd ostracize them for life (maybe for a month though :na: ). I was just pointing out why (male) friends aren’t interested and I think the assumption they can’t dance (without really trying it) is incorrect. Anyway I don't really know what experiences I haven't tried I might enjoy and I'm sure my friends would point to activities they enjoy as a suggestion for something new to try (mountain biking is quite a common one). Maybe I'd enjoy these activities; maybe they wouldn't be for me.

[ducasi]

It's quite condescending actually to suggest that you (anyone) knows better than those men what they want, what would be good for them, and what they'd enjoy. Could it be condescending to suggest that you know how killingtime went about suggesting to his friends that they might enjoy dancing?

Do you never suggest to your friends things they might enjoy?

Is it condescending of me to ask that question?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Could it be condescending to suggest that you know how killingtime went about suggesting to his friends that they might enjoy dancing?

Do you never suggest to your friends things they might enjoy?

Is it condescending of me to ask that question?I suggest that they might like it; most of them aren't remotely interested, so I leave it there.

... and condescend away... I love it!

[Andy McGregor]

And - by the way - it isn't just men that you ladies want. It's men who can dance, interpret the music, who don't yank, don't smell, don't touch you in unwelcome ways, who do ask you to dance (but not too much), don't have too much to drink, can do interesting moves (but not too complicated) and make you feel like goddesses. The pressure to be all that is a good reason to run screaming from the hall :eek:

[TiggsTours]

Should you then charge for men who follow? Especially since they are normally the good leads - one dance takes away two leads from the pool; perhaps they should pay double :devil:
Should women who can lead get in free too? and women who can follow double trouble get in for half price? Surely if we go with this idea, women who can lead double trouble should be paid to go dancing, but only if the only lead two women!

[TiggsTours]

Just an observation in return: it's because of the large number of women on this forum who complain about the lack of men and what should be done about it.
Personally, I've never once complained, so can I continue to pay the same price as all the men?

[Robin]

Isn't it really up to the venue organisers to balance the numbers ?

For the ICE dance, Tezi has been monitoring the ratio and reckons that it will be more or less even (within about 10 people).

If you let people in free you then have a whole new ball game - ie from a business perspective you have to make up the lost revenue somewhere - you are also in danger of deflating the value of your product - not to mention the massive ego trips you'd send some people on!

There are a limited number of "better than average" dancers and they will always be sought after by their peers.

Personally I think that this is one of the biggest arguments for "non-competition" as the marketplace becomes very diluted and you end up with lots of venues running on the same night but with smaller numbers of dancers (finchley excluded ! :D ).

Whilst I appreciate that people do like variety, there is a difference between "variety" and "flooded market" - especially if the "variety" ends up being the same!

[El Salsero Gringo]

Personally, I've never once complained, so can I continue to pay the same price as all the men?No - collective responsibility applies.

[tsh]

The price charded by the venue is probably half the total cost I pay to attend - excluding my time! A venue that is struggling to attract men is probably one which I would chose to avoid anyway. If you want more men, you need to make the venue more attractive in terms of the experience, get more men to come along, and get more to come back.

Maybe it's just that on average, women come back to a venue for a week longer than men. A free pass isn't going to make someone come back for the last week they turn up for.

Sean

[TiggsTours]

No - collective responsibility applies.
In that case, all men should have to pay double, due to the collective responsibility that causes the imbalance being down to men not wanting to learn how to dance in the first place. Its all your fault! (why is there no sticking out tongue smiley when you need one? this one will have to do. :eek: or perhaps this one, :yum: I guess this is the closest to ironic though :whistle: )

[David Bailey]

In that case, all men should have to pay double, due to the collective responsibility that causes the imbalance being down to men not wanting to learn how to dance in the first place. Its all your fault!
You silver-tongued devil you...

Seriously, I think price-differentiation is a non-starter, at least for regular events, mainly because it's difficult to "sell", and because it causes too much short-term aggro.


(why is there no sticking out tongue smiley when you need one?
:na: ?

[doc martin]

In that case, all men should have to pay double, due to the collective responsibility that causes the imbalance being down to men not wanting to learn how to dance in the first place. Its all your fault! (why is there no sticking out tongue smiley when you need one? this one will have to do. :eek: or perhaps this one, :yum: I guess this is the closest to ironic though :whistle: )
Do any of these strike you as ironic? 3921 or 3922 or 3924

Here's what I think to paying double 3925

[LMC]

Stevenage (Ceroc Metro) had a "bring a new man and you both get in free" initiative which seemed to work quite well. Numbers are still quite unbalanced though :sad: - it's keeping the men, as so many have said - and that's down to whether they have a good time/the quality of the event more than the cost IMO.

Oh, and the new men have to be banned from introducing any more women of course :rofl:

[TiggsTours]

:na: ?
Oh yeah, didn't see that one! :blush: